What spells or tactics can one use to interact through a Wall of Force?

[Osuniev]

My players are just starting a fight where a bunch of Hobgoblins and Black Abishais are blocked behind the Wall of Force that the PC wizard just cast.

The PCs are inside the Wall of Force with 5 Hobgoblins casters (a war priest and a few others).

In the future sessions they are going to come across enemies with Wall of Force (blue Abishais notably), and I don't want every fight to become a boring cakewalk or a awful PC death dependiong on whether someone has access to Desintegration.

I'm looking for :
- Spells or actions that are possible directly through a Wall of Force by RAW

- Spells or actions that are not possible through a Wall of Force by RAW but should be. (I'm unsure whether making it destructible by martials by giving it an AC and HP is a good idea, for example...), so I can make an informed choice about Houserules and discuss it with my players.

- example of tactics smart opponents could use to go around (so my PCs can do it later).
(In the current situation I see the possibility of digging a tunnel (the Ranger has a Giant Badger as an animal companion), and there's another access to the room).

It's the first time the Wizard casts Wall of Force, and he told me he trusted me on how to handle it, and that he feels the spell is kind of broken (he's a DM himself).

[Elenian]

Teleportation, obviously, since it no longer involves the ethereal plane in 5e.

Burrowing through/incorporeally bypassing the ground, walls, or ceiling (doesn't work to get through a sphere of force, though, obviously).

Many effects (gaze attacks, psychic domination, whatever) should work fine through a wall of force.

Disrupting the caster's concentration is sometimes achievable - eg if the hobgoblins isolated on the party side of the wall all immediately focus fire on the caster. This is not applicable or reliable in all scenarios.

Incidentally, I'm unclear on whether you can *hear* through a wall of force.

[Aimeryan]

Nothing can physically pass through the wall.

The wall does not, at least stated, stop non-physical things from passing through. As 5e lacks a robust spell school mechanic system, and spells rarely say whether they are critically* physical, it is going to be up to the DM what spells and other effects can pass through.


An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range.

We know it doesn't stop light, since is it not opaque. Therefore, energy seems to pass through fine. So, any spell that you think is critically energy based should be fine. Any spell that has an obviously critical physical component (like a summon) should be fine if the physical part comes into being at a distant point, rather than immediately from the caster.

---

*Critically as in the spell would not work if any physical parts would be stopped. A Dragon's Breath spell might be ruled to be critically physical since fire is a state of matter (plasma), and the spell is basically fire in a cone from the caster. On the other hand, the DM could rule the spell is just energy based and causes the air to become a plasma around it, meaning the spell is not critically physical in nature. These are going to be DM based.

[Amnestic]

Spells require a line of effect, which Wall of Force does not allow, in the same way you can't cast spells through windows.

[Aimeryan]

Spells require a line of effect, which Wall of Force does not allow, in the same way you can't cast spells through windows.

Not sure if this was a direct response to my post, given the lack of quote, however, Wall of Force is not a window - it is a spell. Spells works exactly as they say, and this spell says nothing physical can pass through it. If you are of the opinion that all spells are intrinsically physical then the follow up is indeed that Wall of Force stops all spells passing through it. If not, then it depends on the spell.

[Amnestic]

Not sure if this was a direct response to my post, given the lack of quote, however, Wall of Force is not a window - it is a spell. Spells works exactly as they say, and this spell says nothing physical can pass through it.

Indeed, and it does not say "magical things can pass through it". The general rules on line of effect still apply, because there's no specific exemption to it in the spell. It only does what it says.

[Aimeryan]

Indeed, and it does not say "magical things can pass through it". The general rules on line of effect still apply, because there's no specific exemption to it in the spell. It only does what it says.

Spells don't block line of effect, otherwise spells like Web and Spiked Growth would do the same. Spells do what they say they do. Wall of Force says nothing physical can pass through it. Done.

Here is a spell that blocks both physical and spells, by stating it does:


A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.

[Amnestic]

Spells don't block line of effect, otherwise spells like Web and Spiked Growth would do the same.

Spike Growth doesn't because it's tiny spikes that are so tiny it requires a perception check to notice them if you didn't see them cast first.

Web probably should block it, because it's thick webs that are layered 5 feet deep. Probably blocks sight entirely too, for that matter, though I've rarely seen it played that way.



Here is a spell that blocks both physical and spells, by stating it does:

A spell calling out that it blocks something doesn't mean that another spell does not.

Wall of Ice doesn't say it blocks spells. Can you cast through that?

[Aimeryan]

A spell calling out that it blocks something doesn't mean that another spell does not.

Wall of Ice doesn't say it blocks spells. Can you cast through that?

Spells only do what they say. Anything else is a DM ruling.

Wall of Ice creates an object that provides total cover due to the size (as per Total Cover rules). Total cover blocks spells.
Wall of Force does not state that it creates an object. It does not state that it provides Total Cover. Ergo, it does neither of these things.

Would you rule spells can be cast through Wall of Fire, and why/why not?

Another question, what is the difference to yourself between these two sentences?:
'Nothing can physically pass through the wall.'
'Nothing can pass through the wall.'

[Amnestic]

Spells only do what they say. Anything else is a DM ruling.


Is Wall of Force an Obstacle? Yes.
Creatures completely behind an Obstacle have Total Cover, and aren't aren't able to be targeted.
Therefore: Wall of Force doesn't allow magic to be cast through it, because the target point/creatures inside have Total Cover, because they're blocked by an Obstacle.

That's the 'ruling'. Referring to the rules.

This is the only sane way to use the spell, because if you allow a 5th level spell to box in creatures with no save and then cast through it freely, then suddenly every single non-spellcasting enemy becomes trivial to a single spell. And that's stupid.

Or, if deployed against the party, it turns spellcasters into a nightmare the moment they deploy it. Time was your sickening radiance-wall of force combo needed to be set up with readied actions or lucky initiative rolls or the like, but now it's just...nah, go for it whenever. Lock them up first!

Related: Can you move a Wall of Force by pushing on it? It doesn't say it's immobile, like Forcecage and Tiny Hut do. I'd say no. Because it's a wall, but your logic says it's a 'yes'. So can it be bent? It doesn't say anything can pass through it, but if it can be pushed, can it be warped and the shape changed?



Would you rule spells can be cast through Wall of Fire, and why/why not?

Fire isn't an obstacle, so yes, assuming you don't need the spell to target a creature you can see.



Another question, what is the difference to yourself between these two sentences?:
'Nothing can physically pass through the wall.'
'Nothing can pass through the wall.'

There isn't any in this context.

You referenced light earlier - light is a physical phenomenon, so it should block light too. It should block light, and air, and sound, and everything else. That's the RAW reading.

[Aimeryan]

Is Wall of Force an Obstacle? Yes.

Not for non-physical things. Everything follows from there.
Your answer to the two sentences difference illuminates the issue.

[KorvinStarmast]

Teleportation, obviously, since it no longer involves the ethereal plane in 5e. Teleport, misty step, dimension door, thunder step all come to mind. Not sure of the Shadow Monk's shadow step would work, though I think it would since WoF does not block light or shadow.

Many effects (gaze attacks, psychic domination, whatever) should work fine through a wall of force. I have to think about that, but probably right.

The wall does not, at least stated, stop non-physical things from passing through. Does that mean that you can shoot an eldritch blast through it? I think one could not. Would not the Force stop Force damage?


Here is a spell that blocks both physical and spells, by stating it does: Thanks for that example.

[JackPhoenix]

You referenced light earlier - light is a physical phenomenon, so it should block light too. It should block light, and air, and sound, and everything else. That's the RAW reading.

It's explicitly transparent, so it includes exception for light in its description.

[Dr.Samurai]

Not exactly what you're looking for but it does interact with force effects so...

The Book of Many Things has introduced a Very Rare weapon type called Forcebreaker Weapon. It's a +2 weapon that destroys any Large or smaller force effect that it hits. For Huge and Gargantuan force effects, it destroys a 20ft cube section. Looks like it only applies to Bludgeoning weapons.

[Amnestic]

It's explicitly transparent, so it includes exception for light in its description.

It's not "transparent", it's "invisible". Those two are not the same thing, especially in this context. You cannot see the wall, but everything within it would be blacked out from the outside, and everything outside of it would be blacked out from the inside, because no light can pass through it.

That's the RAW reading of the spell.

[Keravath]

I'll first mention the big DM issue with Wall of Force - does it provide Total Cover? Total Cover blocks line of effect for magical spells and any other effect that requires an attack roll.

"A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."

This causes a very heated argument in some quarters and is really NOT worth derailing this thread to discuss again since there are religious adherents on both sides. Some people consider "completely concealed" to mean that a line drawn from attacker to target must be completely blocked by the obstacle, others might think that "completely concealed" means that the target must be visually blocked as well as physically blocked. For reference, D&D designers have said that Wall of Force does provide total cover.

This one is completely up to the DM how they want to run it in their game. However, this one ruling has a major impact on the effectiveness of Wall of Force and will significantly affect strategies for use in your game.

So, as a DM, decide this one first, then look at what can be done with a Wall of Force.

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Tactics:

- Teleportation/Misty step ... will bypass a wall of force
- Flying, running around, burrowing underneath ... could all be used to bypass a wall of force - even a single casting of a Mold Earth cantrip moving a 5' cube of earth from beneath the wall could allow creatures to move underneath it. Ring of jumping might let a creature jump over it.

Keep in mind that a WoF is invisible. ONLY the caster will know where they put the 10' sections until someone runs into it or the caster starts yelling "Watch out for the wall at ..." which would probably alert both friends and enemies.

- Disintegrate is the obvious counter (you also need to resolve how disintegrate targets an invisible wall of force when it requires a target you can see .. just another DM call on how you want to run it .. usually, I run it as follows - since disintegrate can be targeted on creatures or objects and since it will stop at and eliminate a wall of force if it encounters one, then I allow characters to target something beyond a WoF that they know or expect exists and then the disintegrate will destroy the WoF when it runs into it ... but that's just me :) ... there is nothing wrong with allowing Disintegrate to directly target a wall of force if you like).

Wall of force WILL block any physical attacks - nothing can physically pass through the wall.

---------------

This is where the ruling on Total cover comes into play.

If the wall provides total cover then NO spell can be targeted at something on the other side of the wall since there is no line of effect for the spell (the one possible exception (another DM ruling) to this interpretation is Sacred Flame which includes the wording : "The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." This is then interpreted to mean that the target GETS a saving throw even though total cover would have prevented the spell being cast.)

Other than that, spells can't pass through the wall any more than physical attacks. Neither can anything else requiring an attack roll or targeting.

This makes WoF much more powerful since creatures without a way to get around the wall basically have no alternatives to just standing there and waiting.

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On the other hand, if the DM rules that Wall of Force is NOT total cover then spells that require the caster to SEE the target and do NOT include a part of their description in which there is a physical manifestation traveling from the caster to the target, can be cast.

For example, in a fireball "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame", the DM could rule this bright streak could not pass through the wall of force so the spell could not be targeted at a point on the other side.

However, each spell cast will have a different description and it will be up to the DM to rule on which spells will work through a wall of force and which won't. Chill touch for example has a skeletal hand appear next to a creature you can see within range and makes no mention of something physical traversing the space in between that might be stopped by a physical obstruction like a wall of force that the DM has ruled does not provide Total Cover.

Ruling a WoF is not Total Cover requires a lot more work by a DM since they need to decide on a case by case basis what attacks and magical effect might bypass the wall and which won't ... eg fireball NO, firebolt NO, chill touch YES ... etc.

Breath weapon ... NO ... unless AoE expands around the wall, gaze attack YES ... and so one.

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So, it really comes down to how you want to run it in your game world and what you want to allow to pass through a wall of force.

[Keravath]

It's not "transparent", it's "invisible". Those two are not the same thing, especially in this context. You cannot see the wall, but everything within it would be blacked out from the outside, and everything outside of it would be blacked out from the inside, because no light can pass through it.

That's the RAW reading of the spell.

I'm not sure how you interpret invisible as opaque.

The wording of wall of force is:
"An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range."
"Nothing can physically pass through the wall. "

Invisible means that it can't be seen. In order for it not to be seen, then it can't interact with light. If it absorbs light, or reflects light, then it is visible. If light passes through it 100% unobstructed then the object is invisible. Thus it can't be a black surface from both sides (though that would help solve the issue with Total Cover if a DM wanted to run it this way :) ).

On the other hand, nothing can "physically" pass through the wall. I usually interpret this to mean atoms/molecules of solid/liquid/gas/plasma. I don't usually include photons in that definition. On the other hand, if a DM decided photons were "physical" in their game then they could have a wall where photons couldn't pass through but then it wouldn't be invisible.

It's all D&D fantasy physics anyway so there is no need to justify a ruling but by the rules stating the wall is invisible, it is certainly also 100% transparent.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure how you interpret invisible as opaque.

The wording of wall of force is:
"An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range."
"Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " I don't get that either.


Invisible means that it can't be seen. In order for it not to be seen, then it can't interact with light. If it absorbs light, or reflects light, then it is visible. If light passes through it 100% unobstructed then the object is invisible. Thus it can't be a black surface from both sides (though that would help solve the issue with Total Cover if a DM wanted to run it this way :) ). While I like this exposition, it is also a bit of overthinking given that it is invisible. Can't be seen and blocks light are mutually contradictory.

On the other hand, nothing can "physically" pass through the wall. I usually interpret this to mean atoms/molecules of solid/liquid/gas/plasma.
I don't usually include photons in that definition. On the other hand, if a DM decided photons were "physical" in their game then they could have a wall where photons couldn't pass through but then it wouldn't be invisible.
Photons do not necessarily exist in D&D verse. They are something in Real Life. Atoms don't necessarily exist either. D&D runs off of metaphysics - earth, wind, fire, water, spirit - rather than physics as we know it.

It's all D&D fantasy physics anyway so there is no need to justify a ruling but by the rules stating the wall is invisible, it is certainly also 100% transparent. Yep.

[RSP]

My thoughts: read the spell as “An invisible wall (that happens to be made of magical force) springs into existence at a point you choose within range….”

Can [the whatever you’re thinking of] go through a generic wall?

If not, then it can’t go thru the WoF.

Then understand that the WoF is “5e invisible”, not “sciency-invisible”: it’s basically just “impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense.”

[Darth Credence]

Sorry for a bit of a tangent, but I had a thought. Since it is invisible, if it was cast without the other side knowing about it (before combat, by someone who has subtle spell or something), how would anyone rule it if the enemy charged? It's a wall that no one can see, if the enemy used their full movement and would otherwise pass through it, would any DMs do something specific? Maybe have them run into it and have to make an athletics check to not get knocked prone? Or would the idea be that as they arrive, they feel the wall and use their movement elsewhere?

I think by the way the game is played, the last is what would generally happen, but the idea of an invisible wall placed to stop a cavalry charge is appealing to me.

[RSP]

I think by the way the game is played, the last is what would generally happen, but the idea of an invisible wall placed to stop a cavalry charge is appealing to me.

This is one of those situations where DM determines and I’m fine with that. If a character “charges in”, yeah I could see a d6 roll for slight damage and possibly being knocked prone.

If a character moves in, in a defensive manner, cautiously being aware as they progress forward, then they won’t be impacted by the wall so much.

[Keravath]

Depending on the terrain, I might also have a perception roll to notice the wall.

If the wind contains dust, smoke or other visible components then the wall could be noticed by its effect on air currents.

If the wall cuts across a field with plants, then the line where they get pushed to one side or the other is likely to be fairly noticeable.

If there are other creatures about then a character might notice something else unexpectedly interacting with the wall.

There are quite a few things that could potentially give away the presence and location of a wall of force - all of which would be a DM judgement call.

[JackPhoenix]

Sorry for a bit of a tangent, but I had a thought. Since it is invisible, if it was cast without the other side knowing about it (before combat, by someone who has subtle spell or something), how would anyone rule it if the enemy charged? It's a wall that no one can see, if the enemy used their full movement and would otherwise pass through it, would any DMs do something specific? Maybe have them run into it and have to make an athletics check to not get knocked prone? Or would the idea be that as they arrive, they feel the wall and use their movement elsewhere?

I think by the way the game is played, the last is what would generally happen, but the idea of an invisible wall placed to stop a cavalry charge is appealing to me.

Feather Fall reduces your falling speed to 60' per round/~6 seconds, which is enough to negate falling damage. Conversely, anyone moving at that speed or slower than that shouldn't take damage when running into a solid object, even though it may still hurt.

[Slipjig]

Wall of Force is an incredibly powerful spell, even WITHOUT the ability to cast through it. Since the wording on it is somewhat imprecise, I'd definitely come down on the side of NOT allowing most effects to be cast at targets on the other side.

I'd still allow sound to pass through, though, just because the one time I WOULD employ it as a DM is to allow two people who would otherwise be trying to kill each other to have a civil chat.

[Dr.Samurai]

Feather Fall reduces your falling speed to 60' per round/~6 seconds, which is enough to negate falling damage. Conversely, anyone moving at that speed or slower than that shouldn't take damage when running into a solid object, even though it may still hurt.
I'm not sure one has to do with the other. The spell gives you a rate most likely to track distance over rounds of falling, not to suggest that the reason you don't take damage is specifically because of the speed at which you're falling.

Charging head first into an obstacle you didn't know was there could definitely cause damage, even if only at charging speeds, in my opinion.

[rel]

The wall is either free floating or resting on a solid surface. I rule this as cannot intersect solid surfaces. meaning you can't have a panel appear such that half of it is embedded in a wall.

So, unless the terrain is very flat and open there are usually gaps. if you place the hemisphere it isn't flush with the ground. It rests on the tops of the boulders high points, fallen logs and so forth.

If you instead make one 10 foot panels then you can't bring it right up to terrain like walls unless they are conveniently separated by distances that are exact multiples of 10 feet.
You can put 1 10-foot panel into the 15 foot wide corridor, but the last 5 feet can't be filled in with another panel, as it would intersect with the wall. This also applies to ceilings.

And again, unless the terrain is very flat e.g. largely empty rooms made of worked stone, there will be gaps at the borders.

All of which means that under normal circumstances, the wall isn't so much impassible, as it is hard to get past. You can feel around for a gap and squeeze through it, vault or climb over it, run around it, etc.

This will take time, maybe a few rounds. But unless the wizard has carefully chosen the location and prepared the terrain, a casting of wall of force shouldn't leave the opposition trapped with no way to get around it.

[Aimeryan]

Wall of Force is an incredibly powerful spell, even WITHOUT the ability to cast through it. Since the wording on it is somewhat imprecise, I'd definitely come down on the side of NOT allowing most effects to be cast at targets on the other side.

I'd still allow sound to pass through, though, just because the one time I WOULD employ it as a DM is to allow two people who would otherwise be trying to kill each other to have a civil chat.

If you want to cast past it then it wouldn't matter if it said "absolutely no spells may pass through this spell and any attempt to do so burns all your spell slots for a d10 per level". The reason for this is that the player decides where and how it appears, including floating above the ground. You don't need a complete airlock-tight connection to the ground to stop enemies passing - even a foot would be fine. However, you do need that to stop spells (if Wall of Force stopped spells) since even an inch gap would provide line-of-effect.

So, actually, not allowing spells to pass is a buff. Why? Because it shuts down enemy casters who don't get to decide on how the wall is placed.

[KorvinStarmast]

My thoughts: read the spell as “An invisible wall (that happens to be made of magical force) springs into existence at a point you choose within range….”

Can [the whatever you’re thinking of] go through a generic wall?

If not, then it can’t go thru the WoF.

Then understand that the WoF is “5e invisible”, not “sciency-invisible”: it’s basically just “impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense.” Well presented, and I agree that this seems to have been the intent of the description. They were not using computer code, they were using normal English.

Keravath: yes to all of your points on the terrain effects. :smallsmile:

[sambojin]

You could cast Faerie Fire on it. Or the general area that you think it is. Just so your DM has to come up with what force looks like, now it can't be invisible.

[Solusek]

You could cast Faerie Fire on it. Or the general area that you think it is. Just so your DM has to come up with what force looks like, now it can't be invisible.

As a DM my response would be "Very clever! The wall is completely clear, like a pane of glass with no reflections. An impossibly strong pane of glass."

[JackPhoenix]

You could cast Faerie Fire on it. Or the general area that you think it is. Just so your DM has to come up with what force looks like, now it can't be invisible.

Issue 1: Wall of Force is not an object, but a magical effect, so Faerie Fire doesn't work on it.
Issue 2: The wall would still be invisible, just outlined by the fire. You still wouldn't see how force looks like, only the shape of the wall.

[rel]

The wall is either free floating or resting on a solid surface. I rule this as cannot intersect solid surfaces. meaning you can't have a panel appear such that half of it is embedded in a wall.

So, unless the terrain is very flat and open there are usually gaps. if you place the hemisphere it isn't flush with the ground. It rests on the tops of the boulders high points, fallen logs and so forth.

If you instead make one 10 foot panels then you can't bring it right up to terrain like walls unless they are conveniently separated by distances that are exact multiples of 10 feet.
You can put 1 10-foot panel into the 15 foot wide corridor, but the last 5 feet can't be filled in with another panel, as it would intersect with the wall. This also applies to ceilings.

And again, unless the terrain is very flat e.g. largely empty rooms made of worked stone, there will be gaps at the borders.

All of which means that under normal circumstances, the wall isn't so much impassible, as it is hard to get past. You can feel around for a gap and squeeze through it, vault or climb over it, run around it, etc.

This will take time, maybe a few rounds. But unless the wizard has carefully chosen the location and prepared the terrain, a casting of wall of force shouldn't leave the opposition trapped with no way to get around it.

It's also worth noting that even if you do manage to land a wall of force that meshes well with the terrain and actually traps something, at the levels where wall of force becomes available, monsters tend to be very big and powerful.

Such creatures could be reasonably expected to burst through the mundane walls and floor of the dungeon bordering the force wall like the coolaid man. In fact 3.5 actually had strength check DC's for this sort of thing, not to mention HP values for walls and floors of common materials.

And of course if multiple creatures are trapped that's multiple attempts to bust through and as soon as one creature succeeds there's now a hole everyone can use.

[Fumble]

They should give wall spells AC and HP.

[RSP]

They should give wall spells AC and HP.

They do. Take Wall of Stone, for example:

“The wall is an object made of stone that can be damaged and thus breached. Each panel has AC 15 and 30 hit points per inch of thickness. Reducing a panel to 0 hit points destroys it and might cause connected panels to collapse at the GM's discretion.”

With Wall of Force, AC and HPs are moot, as the WoF is “immune to all damage”.

[JNAProductions]

They do. Take Wall of Stone, for example:

“The wall is an object made of stone that can be damaged and thus breached. Each panel has AC 15 and 30 hit points per inch of thickness. Reducing a panel to 0 hit points destroys it and might cause connected panels to collapse at the GM's discretion.”

With Wall of Force, AC and HPs are moot, as the WoF is “immune to all damage”.

And Fumble thinks that Wall Of Force should have AC and HP, and presumably NOT be immune to all damage.

[Telok]

And Fumble thinks that Wall Of Force should have AC and HP, and presumably NOT be immune to all damage.

Pazio's Starfinder did that. Last time I saw it used the wall got blown away in one round. Waste of a high level slot.

[Amnestic]

Pazio's Starfinder did that. Last time I saw it used the wall got blown away in one round. Waste of a high level slot.

How much damage did it absorb?

Seems like a 5th level slot to eat an entire round of attacks is probably a decent trade, when there are spells that do literally nothing if you save against them.

[Telok]

How much damage did it absorb?

Seems like a 5th level slot to eat an entire round of attacks is probably a decent trade, when there are spells that do literally nothing if you save against them.

Hardness 30 & 300 hp, keeping in mind that Starfinder is effectively a super modded space fantasy version of 3.p D&D. In that game 5th level spells come online at 13th level when the standard combat npc template has basic attack of natural quad attacks of 2d8+13+str or triples with a 4d6 to 4d10 before bonuses & augments melee weapon. A very easy cr appropriate fight would have a single level 13 npc, but that's not when you bust out your highest level spells either.

[Amnestic]

The wall absorbed 300 + (30 * # of attacks) worth of damage that would've otherwise been going towards your party that round. How many attacks was it? 4? 8? It looks like it absorbed...what 400-500+ damage at least.

Granted it's been a while since I played 3.PF properly but that sounds like it'd be enough to toast at least one or two party members if it'd gone to them instead. It sounds like a pretty good use of a spell slot to me. Drastically better than the equivalent Cure spell which if I'm not mistaken heals an average of...around 30 for the same level spell slot?

What else would you have spent it on that's better?

[Telok]

How many attacks was it? 4? 8? It looks like it absorbed...what 400-500+ damage at least...

Granted it's been a while since I played 3.PF properly but that sounds like...

What else would you have spent it on that's better?

It was some years ago. We dropped the system before finishing the campaign. Anyways there's stuff that ignores hardness, increases damage on objects, just ignores force effects, etc. You're looking at minimum baseline damage there. I mostly just remember regretting taking the spell as it wasn't very useful for the level it was at. It's not straight 3.p so direct translation of SF damage vs PF healing is completely inaccurate.

[rel]

Another often overlooked method of mundane interaction with force effects comes from 3.5; one of the alternate uses of escape artist was squeezing through a wall of force or similar effect. The character finds some weakness or instability and presses through the offending effect.

Now, the 3.5 rule was from the epic level handbook, and the DC was set obnoxiously high, but there's no reason this should be the case. Given the design ethos of 5e, an ability check with a much more reasonable DC to slip through a force wall seems like a very interesting approach.

The spell 'Maze' in 5e can be seen as somewhat analogous to the force barrier spells (wall of force, forcecage, etc); A high level spell that traps a creature with no save allowed, and the only reliable defenses being some rather esoteric magical effects.
However Maze offers a mundane means of escape, a DC20 intelligence check to find your way out. Adding a similar clause to the force spells, say a DC 20 Dex check to squeeze through the barrier, is a nice simple change that makes force effects a little less powerful.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

My players are just starting a fight where a bunch of Hobgoblins and Black Abishais are blocked behind the Wall of Force that the PC wizard just cast.

The PCs are inside the Wall of Force with 5 Hobgoblins casters (a war priest and a few others).

In the future sessions they are going to come across enemies with Wall of Force (blue Abishais notably), and I don't want every fight to become a boring cakewalk or a awful PC death dependiong on whether someone has access to Desintegration.

I'm looking for :
- Spells or actions that are possible directly through a Wall of Force by RAW

- Spells or actions that are not possible through a Wall of Force by RAW but should be. (I'm unsure whether making it destructible by martials by giving it an AC and HP is a good idea, for example...), so I can make an informed choice about Houserules and discuss it with my players.

- example of tactics smart opponents could use to go around (so my PCs can do it later).
(In the current situation I see the possibility of digging a tunnel (the Ranger has a Giant Badger as an animal companion), and there's another access to the room).

It's the first time the Wizard casts Wall of Force, and he told me he trusted me on how to handle it, and that he feels the spell is kind of broken (he's a DM himself).

What's your definition of very hard and nearly impossible?

A Stealth/Acrobatics/Arcana ability check that hits 25 or 30 could allow a creature to slip through a wall of force.

People may think it's impossible, and some wizard who made the spell may say it's impossible, but that's just because no one was good enough yet.

Scientist used to say humans can't run a mile in under 4 minutes and that got squashed in the 50's.

Also, if you wanna be technical about it, a wall of.force should block light. It says nothing can physically pass through the wall and rays of light are a physical thing (really, really, small things but still). Because it's invisible but nothing can pass through we know the description isn't 100% truthful so have fun with it. Broken things should be broken down.

Technically air is a physical thing too, well, the stuff that's in it. Sound requires this stuff to vibrate... If you make a hemisphere dome suffocation should be on the table.


Anyways, depending where you're at and how the wall of force is formed... Mold Earth (or a similar/more powerful effect). Just go under the wall.

Time limits. Can't stall the battle out if there's a time limit.

A bimbo/himbo Bard on the other side of the wall that says they have candy.

An illusion of a bimbo/himbo Bard on the other side of the wall that says they have candy.