Caster Level for magic items

[Yora]

A question was asked in the Simple Rules Q&A thread about the caster level of magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?662453-Simple-RAW-for-3-5-38-pages-and-I-still-don-t-know-how-to-play-D-amp-D&p=25953954#post25953954), while I was looking up specific examples to reference in my answer, the situation just kept getting stranger. This is not a simple question and I think needs a thread for itself.

The question is whether a magic item has to have the listed CL in its description when made by a PC, or if the CL of the finished item can be made to be higher or lower?

The main piece of evidence for me has always been that the listed CL is separated from the prerequisites by a semicolon, while all the prerequisites are separated from each other by commas. Therefore, the listed CL is not part of the prerequisites.

A cloak of resistance +1 has the special prerequisites of the caster having to be caster level 3rd to make it.
For a cloak of resistance +2, that special prerequisite is being caster level 6th.
The stated caster level for any cloak of resistance with any enhancement bonus is given as 5th.

Now I can see that a 5th level character could make a cloak of resistance +1 at CL 5th. Since CL 5th does qualify for being at least CL 3rd or higher.
But a 3rd level character could not make any item at CL 5th because his caster level is only 3rd. The prerequisite states that your caster level only has to be three times the enhancement bonus. So I read that as a 3rd level character being able to make the cloak of resistance +1 at CL 3rd.

Things get weird when a 6th level character makes a cloak of resistance +2. The character meets the prerequisite of having a caster level three times higher than the enhancement bonus. But could he still make the item at CL 5th? CL 5th would be lower than the prerequiste to perform the enchantment of the item. That seems quite weird.

But it gets even weirder when you look at the minor cloak of displacement. This item is listed with a CL of 3rd, but creating it requires the spell displacement. Which is a 3rd level spell for bards and wizards, and as such can not be cast at a caster level lower than 5th.

The rules for creating wondrous items says that the creator is effectively casting the required spell every day during the item creation process:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

So you can create a magic item at CL 3rd, even though the spell you provide for its creation is at CL 5th?

What does the CL listed in a magic item's description actually say about the item creation process? Can you just set it at whatever number up to your own caster level that you want? Does the minimum caster level for the prerequisites have no impact on the CL of the finished item?

This all very much feels like someone made a mistake and did not actually think the magic item creation process through to the end. But perhaps there are more pieces of information that could bring some clarity into all of this.

Anyone knowing more on this?

[Jay R]

This is my own understanding, for my own game. It's consistent with the rules as published, but it is still my own conclusions. And mostly, those conclusion come from the rules for potions and wands, which deal with the issue explicitly.


The question is whether a magic item has to have the listed CL in its description when made by a PC, or if the CL of the finished item can be made to be higher or lower?

The CL level affects the item. So the item cannot be made at a CL level below the minimum CL level for making it.

If it affects the magic item, then it can be made higher than the minimum. The most obvious examples are wands and potions. If you make them at a higher CL, then it costs more money (and time), and the spell involved operates at a higher CL. A wand of magic missiles with CL 5 costs 3,750 gp, and fires three missiles instead of one.

Similarly, with a higher caster level, you can pour more time and XPs and magic into cloaks of displacement, gloves of dexterity, tomes of clear thought, potions, wands, and many other items, and make more powerful versions.


The main piece of evidence for me has always been that the listed CL is separated from the prerequisites by a semicolon, while all the prerequisites are separated from each other by commas. Therefore, the listed CL is not part of the prerequisites.

That's a huge conclusion to draw from a simple decision of punctuation. I don't see how it's justified. The minimum CL for the item is listed. The item cannot work at a lower CL (or all wizards everywhere would make it that way, to save time and money).

It might help to think of it this way: You are making a cloak of resistance. The minimum price (in gold and XPs) and CL for a given bonus are listed. If you spend 4,000 gp, and make it at CL 6, then its enhancement will be +2. If you make it at a lower level, with less money, it won't be +2.

You don't decide on what bonus it has, and then separately decide what CL to give it; the bonus is a result of the money and XPs and time and CL.

Similarly, I don't decide that I'm going to make a 6-foot-tall bookshelf, and then wonder if I could use 5-foot-long wood for the sides. If I want a 6-foot-tall bookshelf, the wood has to be 6 feet long.


But a 3rd level character could not make any item at CL 5th because his caster level is only 3rd. The prerequisite states that your caster level only has to be three times the enhancement bonus. So I read that as a 3rd level character being able to make the cloak of resistance +1 at CL 3rd.

Correct.


Things get weird when a 6th level character makes a cloak of resistance +2. The character meets the prerequisite of having a caster level three times higher than the enhancement bonus. But could he still make the item at CL 5th? CL 5th would be lower than the prerequiste to perform the enchantment of the item. That seems quite weird.

CL 6 is required for a cloak of resistance +2. If he tries to make it at CL 3, 4, or 5, I would rule that it is only a cloak of resistance +1. Just as if I try to make a 6-foot-tall bookshelf, and use 5-foot-long lumber, then it is a 5-foot-tall bookshelf.


But it gets even weirder when you look at the minor cloak of displacement. This item is listed with a CL of 3rd, but creating it requires the spell displacement. Which is a 3rd level spell for bards and wizards, and as such can not be cast at a caster level lower than 5th.

So what? We know a 5th level wizard can make a wand or potion at CL 3. Of course she can make a minor cloak of displacement at CL 3.

In general, it takes the displacement spell to make a cloak of displacement. You can make a minor one at CL 3 in 12 days for 12,000 and 960 XPs, or a major one at CL 7 in 25 days for 25,000 gp and 2,000 XPs.


So you can create a magic item at CL 3rd, even though the spell you provide for its creation is at CL 5th?

Yes, of course -- just as a master smith can make a simple horseshoe nail with his hammer +1, or a Ph.D. in higher mathematics can use Excel to add 23 + 45.


What does the CL listed in a magic item's description actually say about the item creation process?

It describes how much time and money and XPs were spent, and determines how much magic you have put into the object. It also says some things about the finished item, as shown with wands and potions. A wand of fireball at CL 5 (the minimum) creates fireballs that do 5d6 damage. A wand of fireballs at CL 10 creates fireballs that do 10d6 damage.

Similarly, a cloak of resistance at CL 15 is a cloak of resistance +5.

[That's my ruling, based on how potions and wands work, but it isn't stated that way in the books.]


Can you just set it at whatever number up to your own caster level that you want? Does the minimum caster level for the prerequisites have no impact on the CL of the finished item?

The minimum CL for the item is listed. And the prerequisites are given. Both are required. You can choose to make it at a higher CL.

As wands and potions show, you can spend more money and time, and make the item at a higher level. The actual CL of the item affects the item. I suppose that a caster could make any item with a higher CL than the minimum. [After all, that is explicitly done with potions and wands.] Of course, it would increase the cost of the item accordingly.

For some items, like tomes, enhancement items, and cloaks of resistance, the ability to spend more time and money at a higher CL to make a more powerful item is shown explicitly.

For any other item, increasing the CL might affect its abilities. But how it affects the abilities of the item would be a judgment call for the DM, since it isn't explicitly mentioned. At the very least, I would have it affect the item's resistance to being dispelled. It might affect other aspects.

And I would rule that a cloak of resistance +1, made at CL 6 (by using the right money and XPs), is really a cloak of resistance +2. You aren't making a cloak of resistance +2. You are making a cloak of resistance. Since it's CL 6, its bonus is +2.

[This took me about two hours. I hope somebody reads it.]

[Yora]

That's a huge conclusion to draw from a simple decision of punctuation. I don't see how it's justified.
Well, I did find more:

In the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 215, Caster Level and Prerequisites are separate bullet points.

It also then says in the Prerequisites section that the prerequisites "are given immediately following the item's caster level." Therefore the caster level is not a prerequisite.

The section on Caster Level right before it also did get an errata, which will be critical for this discussion:


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s
caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.


So what? We know a 5th level wizard can make a wand or potion at CL 3. Of course she can make a minor cloak of displacement at CL 3.
No, you can't. Because of that errata.

The 3rd level spell displacement can only be cast a minimum caster level of 5th. Therefore a magic item that has displacement as a prerequisite can not have a CL lower than 5th either: "The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."

[Troacctid]

Whatever the item says its caster level is, that's what its caster level is, even if that contradicts the general rules for a magic item's caster level. Specific beats general. You will find numerous examples of rings, rods, weapons, armors, and wondrous items whose caster levels are higher or lower than their prerequisites suggest, and that is normal and expected. When you craft those items, they will have the item's listed caster level, regardless of whatever your caster level is.

When you're making a spell trigger or spell completion item, that's where the general rules actually matter. For wands and scrolls and potions, you choose a caster level when crafting the item, and it can be as high as your current caster level, as low as the minimum possible caster level for that spell, or anywhere in between.

[ShurikVch]

No, you can't. Because of that errata.

The 3rd level spell displacement can only be cast a minimum caster level of 5th. Therefore a magic item that has displacement as a prerequisite can not have a CL lower than 5th either: "The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."
It already was debated to heck and back

Recap:
-Some classes - such as Telflammar Shadowlord (or Divine Crusader with Illusion domain) are able to cast Displacement at lower CL than 5 (namely - for both examples - 3)
-What if mage will take the Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment feats - they, at level 9, would be able to cast only 1st-level spells (and cantrips/orisons)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The minimum caster level for created items is whatever the character making it would need to meet the prerequisites. Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12th, but a Midgard Dwarf doesn't need to meet any item creation feat prerequisites, so he can ignore that prerequisite and create rings at a lower caster level. A Wizard needing to cast a 3rd level spell to create an item must create that item at a caster level of at least 5th, regardless of what caster level other characters could cast that spell at.

While the caster level of published items can vary, the price of those items is set in stone unless it's a potion, wand, scroll, staff, etc. So if you're making a Cloak of Displacement, the item's base price is 24k or 50k respectively for the minor and major versions, regardless of what the item's caster level is. So whether it's created at a caster level of 3rd (by a character able to cast the required spell at that low a caster level) or at a caster level of 20th, the gp and xp cost to create it is still the same as what's published for that item. Some items have a caster-level-based effect, such as a Hat of Anonymity's nondetection effect, which will be better if it's created at a higher caster level. Regardless, the item's base price doesn't vary by caster level, so even though a higher caster level version is mechanically better, it's not any more expensive to create. That doesn't mean an NPC who made one at a caster level of 20th wouldn't charge a higher price for it, though.

[Saintheart]

Whatever the item says its caster level is, that's what its caster level is, even if that contradicts the general rules for a magic item's caster level. Specific beats general. You will find numerous examples of rings, rods, weapons, armors, and wondrous items whose caster levels are higher or lower than their prerequisites suggest, and that is normal and expected. When you craft those items, they will have the item's listed caster level, regardless of whatever your caster level is.

When you're making a spell trigger or spell completion item, that's where the general rules actually matter. For wands and scrolls and potions, you choose a caster level when crafting the item, and it can be as high as your current caster level, as low as the minimum possible caster level for that spell, or anywhere in between.

Staves too. I had the misfortune a while back of having to look how the Craft Staff formula compared to actual items in the books. Staves are spell-trigger items and you can't craft a staff with a CL less than 8. But if you try to apply the Craft Staff cost formula to a number of the magic staves even in the DMG (let alone splats), the rules get broken a lot. Some just cannot have the market prices they do when you back-calculate the item's caster level. And indeed in some splatbooks the stave just has a CL less than 8.

I don't think of it as 'specific beats general' so much as 'the level editor the designers supplied for the videogame does not have to output the same result as the levels that the game creators built.'

[Remuko]

The minimum caster level for created items is whatever the character making it would need to meet the prerequisites. Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12th, but a Midgard Dwarf doesn't need to meet any item creation feat prerequisites, so he can ignore that prerequisite and create rings at a lower caster level. A Wizard needing to cast a 3rd level spell to create an item must create that item at a caster level of at least 5th, regardless of what caster level other characters could cast that spell at.

While the caster level of published items can vary, the price of those items is set in stone unless it's a potion, wand, scroll, staff, etc. So if you're making a Cloak of Displacement, the item's base price is 24k or 50k respectively for the minor and major versions, regardless of what the item's caster level is. So whether it's created at a caster level of 3rd (by a character able to cast the required spell at that low a caster level) or at a caster level of 20th, the gp and xp cost to create it is still the same as what's published for that item. Some items have a caster-level-based effect, such as a Hat of Anonymity's nondetection effect, which will be better if it's created at a higher caster level. Regardless, the item's base price doesn't vary by caster level, so even though a higher caster level version is mechanically better, it's not any more expensive to create. That doesn't mean an NPC who made one at a caster level of 20th wouldn't charge a higher price for it, though.

This sounds like how I parse the rules as well.

[Chronos]

Typically, an item's caster level has no relation at all to the caster level of the character creating it. If a Widget of Wonder has a CL of 20, and its only prerequisite is Prestidigitation, then a first-level character with Prestidigitation can create it. Usually, an item's caster level has no relevance on its own, and only determines how it interacts with other effects like Dispel Magic or Detect Magic.

For items which cast spells, like wands, staves, scrolls, and potions, the caster level has additional relevance, as the caster level of the spells they cast. For those specific items, one of the prerequisites is that the creator must have a caster level as high as that of the item. But that's only for those items.