Concerning Elves

[NecessaryWeevil]

We know that Tolkien was a major influence on D&D as it first came to be. Elves and Hobb, er Halflings in particular seem to be very Tolkien-esque.
What would the Elf PC race look like if they were instead based on the elves of Discworld or Mr. Norrell & Jonathan Strange?

[Anymage]

Halflings faced a significant shift since early D&D, since a race of pastoral homebodies is boring and doesn't really spark many adventure opportunities or character concepts beyond the occasional person who gets hit by the wanderlust bug.

Elves are tricky. In large part because of how many fantasy elves are inspired by Tolkien's in some way, and because Tolkien's ideas are basically being better than everybody else. That does create fertile ideas for both plots and characters, but on the character front it's hard to square being better than everybody else with functioning game balance. Since elves are one of the archetypal D&D races, making them playable is a top priority and that doesn't mesh with some alternate elf interpretations.

[Millstone85]

IIRC, Discworld elves are wasp-like creatures with a glamour ability that works both as a disguise and a psychic attack. You see them as something so beautiful, noble, and superior in every way, that you lose any confidence in your own worth.

So, a sort of thri-kreen/changeling with vicious mockery as a racial cantrip?

[KorvinStarmast]

Halflings faced a significant shift since early D&D, since a race of pastoral homebodies is boring and doesn't really spark many adventure opportunities or character concepts beyond the occasional person who gets hit by the wanderlust bug. EGG would have been better off not including them in the game. (And yes, I played my share of hobbit thieves back in the day).

... but on the character front it's hard to square being better than everybody else with functioning game balance. I found Runequest (back in the 80's, 1st ed IIRC) elves to be more interesting, as they were a lot more like the fae/fey/fay/faerie of celtic and English folklore. They weren't these 'better than human' beings. Vulnerable to iron. (More like the 3 heart 3 lions elves/faeries).
Tolkien's idealized 'First Children of Illuvitar' concept as regards both magical and immortal was quite a break from the fae/fey/fay/faerie elves of other story traditions.

[RSP]

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.
That's always been an issue in D&D.



fertile ideas for both plots and characters,

Remember, elves loved music and languages. If Glorfindel lived today he'd probably have a blast learning Cajun Creole and Eubonics. Learn bluegrass but play it with a harp or glass harmonica, because he got really good at using one a few hundred years ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years.
I guess you have not seen how long it takes to build a house up in a tree in an environmentally friendly way. :smallbiggrin: And their furniture: have you seen that stuff? Amazing stuff, and not a single nail used!

And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human. Was writing poetry, but can't seem to get it published ...

[RSP]

I guess you have not seen how long it takes to build a house up in a tree in an environmentally friendly way. :smallbiggrin: And their furniture: have you seen that stuff? Amazing stuff, and not a single nail used!

Was writing poetry, but can't seem to get it published ...

So Expertise in Carpenter’s Tools as a Racial ability? And maybe in Survival to source the materials without harming anything?

Obviously there’s way too many Elves to publish all the poetry, but a hundred years spent learning Calligrapher’s Tools may make it better hand written any way…


That's always been an issue in D&D.


Some editions had stuff like prof linked to Int. So you could be a smart elf with lots of proficiencies; or a not very smart elf, which explains why you don’t remember all the stuff you e learned…

[Hail Tempus]

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.
My head canon on this is that though they are long-lived, they're no better at maintaining skills than humans are if they don't practice them. So, a 400 year old elf might have become a master chef 200 years ago, but he's moved on to other careers in the subsequent decades and hasn't kept up with his cooking skills. Similarly, an elf who only recently reached adulthood probably just recently put in the time and effort to become the equivalent of a 1st level fighter or wizard or whatever.

[RSP]

My head canon on this is that though they are long-lived, they're no better at maintaining skills than humans are if they don't practice them. So, a 400 year old elf might have become a master chef 200 years ago, but he's moved on to other careers in the subsequent decades and hasn't kept up with his cooking skills. Similarly, an elf who only recently reached adulthood probably just recently put in the time and effort to become the equivalent of a 1st level fighter or wizard or whatever.

Sure: but then all elves are transitory and don’t keep interests/knowledge long. So no elf can have been a farmer for 100 years; they HAVE to have been a farmer for only 10 years, then been a blacksmith for 10 years, then a teacher for 10 years, then a researcher for 10 years, then a lawyer for 10 years, etc.

And they only, for some reason, retain the knowledge of, what, the last 10 years? Does that mean if a campaign last over time, the elf PC loses proficiencies?

[Hail Tempus]

Sure: but then all elves are transitory and don’t keep interests/knowledge long. So no elf can have been a farmer for 100 years; they HAVE to have been a farmer for only 10 years, then been a blacksmith for 10 years, then a teacher for 10 years, then a researcher for 10 years, then a lawyer for 10 years, etc.

And they only, for some reason, retain the knowledge of, what, the last 10 years? Does that mean if a campaign last over time, the elf PC loses proficiencies?
For game purposes, the only relevant skills and proficiencies and the like that the elf remembers is whatever's on their sheet. Maybe she still remembers stuff from the last 50 years she spent working as a florist, which is reflected in her proficiency in Nature. Or maybe none of the skills she practiced recently are things that can be shown on a D&D character sheet. Or maybe their brains work differently- so when they lose interest in something, it tends to get deleted fairly quickly from their brains.

I guess we need to handwave this away, to an extent. This kind of reminds me of some science fictions stories I've read where long-lived humans in the future have to edit their older memories, or upload them to preserve space for new ones. Oftentimes, there's a tendency in D&D to think of elves as just pointy-haired humans, though you would expect the psychology of a someone who lives for 700 years to be quite different from us.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Elves as kind of distractible dilettantes does seem to mesh somewhat with the alternative source material I mentioned in the original post.

[RSP]

For game purposes, the only relevant skills and proficiencies and the like that the elf remembers is whatever's on their sheet. Maybe she still remembers stuff from the last 50 years she spent working as a florist, which is reflected in her proficiency in Nature. Or maybe none of the skills she practiced recently are things that can be shown on a D&D character sheet. Or maybe their brains work differently- so when they lose interest in something, it tends to get deleted fairly quickly from their brains.

I guess we need to handwave this away, to an extent. This kind of reminds me of some science fictions stories I've read where long-lived humans in the future have to edit their older memories, or upload them to preserve space for new ones. Oftentimes, there's a tendency in D&D to think of elves as just pointy-haired humans, though you would expect the psychology of a someone who lives for 700 years to be quite different from us.

But 50 years doing anything is going to be much more proficient than a 20-something year old human would have, in terms of knowing what you were doing. If a human PC begins the story at 25-years old, that’s about 5-10 years of life being accounted for by their Background

Aide-expectancy comparably aged Elf, is starting that campaign at about 175. Even if only accounting for the last 50 years, that’s still 5-10 times the years being accounted for by the background.

I’m not saying the game should change, but it certainly doesn’t make sense that the 175-year old Elf has the same breath of life experience (“proficiencies”) as a 20-ish human.

Some races, like Kobolds, make it worse. Kobolds reach adulthood at 6.

So a 6-year old Kobold, an 18-year old human, and a 100-year old elf all have the same breathe of life experiences, despite a dramatic difference in years lived.

[JNAProductions]

Exceptional elves, dwarves, humans, kobolds, goblins, etc…
Have the same level of starting adventuring skills at different ages, provided the DM starts everyone at the same level and allows all races.

You are perfectly free to say elves have to be at least 3rd level or whatever, or that kobolds start a level lower.

[RSP]

Exceptional elves, dwarves, humans, kobolds, goblins, etc…
Have the same level of starting adventuring skills at different ages, provided the DM starts everyone at the same level and allows all races.

You are perfectly free to say elves have to be at least 3rd level or whatever, or that kobolds start a level lower.

I appreciate you allowing me that. Very generous of you.

Whether you allow it for others or not, though, it’s a huge hole in the fantasy.

If the fiction is that Elves learn from their experiences, like real life humans do, then PC elves are rather behind their elven contemporaries, rather than being exceptional.

[Monster Manuel]

I've always played it that elves (and all races in D&D, basically) age at the same rate as humans until they get to adulthood, and that's when things slow down for some and speed up for others. So, a 4-year-old elf is developmentally similar to a 4-year-old human child, a Kobold hits puberty around the same time as a Dwarf. Any long-lived PCs are assumed to be in the early days of their career, and start at around the same age as a typical human PC (so, 20-ish), unless there's some backstory reason to explain their lack of skill compared to their more advanced age. An elf with a high stat and expertise in some craftsman's tools makes an acceptably good tailor, if that's how you want to explain what you were doing for 30 years before you picked up the sword.

There are more high-level elves than there are high-level goblins, just because they have a longer time frame to get good, but that's an NPC/world building concern, rather than a PC concern.

As for the OP's question about what Discworld or Johnathan Strange elves might look like in D&D, I think they'd mainly look like...not PCs. Both are powerful, dangerous, and alien. They're things that players should be fighting around tier 2 or 3, not something they should be playing. Tolkien's "like you only better" elves just fit the role of a player character more easily than Susanna Clarke's "terrifying and unknowable reality-warping fey" elves. What would I recommend for a player that wanted to stat up a Lovecraftian Shoggoth for a PC? I'd recommend they think harder about their life choices...

Honestly, I think non-tolkien, folklore based elves would probably look a lot like Forest Gnomes.

[JNAProductions]

I appreciate you allowing me that. Very generous of you.

Whether you allow it for others or not, though, it’s a huge hole in the fantasy.

If the fiction is that Elves learn from their experiences, like real life humans do, then PC elves are rather behind their elven contemporaries, rather than being exceptional.

No?

A master seamstress might have a +12 bonus to their clothes making checks. But that's not relevant in most D&D adventures.
This same seamstress is unlikely to be able to produce a cantrip, or swing a sword to any great effect, or be able to take a longsword to the face and keep trucking.

[NecessaryWeevil]

As for the OP's question about what Discworld or Johnathan Strange elves might look like in D&D, I think they'd mainly look like...not PCs. Both are powerful, dangerous, and alien. They're things that players should be fighting around tier 2 or 3, not something they should be playing. Tolkien's "like you only better" elves just fit the role of a player character more easily than Susanna Clarke's "terrifying and unknowable reality-warping fey" elves. What would I recommend for a player that wanted to stat up a Lovecraftian Shoggoth for a PC? I'd recommend they think harder about their life choices...


LOL! Fair enough. I love your name by the way.

[RSP]

No?

A master seamstress might have a +12 bonus to their clothes making checks. But that's not relevant in most D&D adventures.
This same seamstress is unlikely to be able to produce a cantrip, or swing a sword to any great effect, or be able to take a longsword to the face and keep trucking.

Which isn’t anything I mentioned. If a 400 year old elf is knowledgeable in 400 years of life experiences, working, dealing with wars or monster attacks, whatever; they will be much more knowledgeable about most things than an “exceptional” elf PC with 4 proficiencies and a +2 prof bonus.

Though just because you pointed them out, elves are proficient with swinging a sword, and High Elves very much can cast a cantrip.

But that’s just the basics they get for being an elf.

[JNAProductions]

Which isn’t anything I mentioned. If a 400 year old elf is knowledgeable in 400 years of life experiences, working, dealing with wars or monster attacks, whatever; they will be much more knowledgeable about most things than an “exceptional” elf PC with 4 proficiencies and a +2 prof bonus.

Though just because you pointed them out, elves are proficient with swinging a sword, and High Elves very much can cast a cantrip.

But that’s just the basics they get for being an elf.

Except they haven't been fighting in wars for 400 years.
If they have, they're NOT an ordinary elf, and are best represented with a lot of levels or a high CR, depending on what side of the screen they're on.

If you've been a farmer for 300 years, you should be REALLY GOOD at farming. But that's not what D&D covers.

What exactly do you think should be done to represent a centuries-old elf in the game?

[RSP]

Except they haven't been fighting in wars for 400 years.
If they have, they're NOT an ordinary elf, and are best represented with a lot of levels or a high CR, depending on what side of the screen they're on.

If you've been a farmer for 300 years, you should be REALLY GOOD at farming. But that's not what D&D covers.

What exactly do you think should be done to represent a centuries-old elf in the game?

Why haven’t they been fighting for 400 years if they’re 500 years old? We are talking about worlds where monsters and different beings all have issues with each other, not to mention all the trouble the gods bring into it. I mean, FR has like three gods of war, and a few of death.

I mean, take a PC elf, Soldier or Mercenary background, make them about 125 years old. Haven’t they now been a Soldier or Mercenary for a while? Even if their background only covers the last 10-15 years, that’s way more time than an equivalent 18 year old Human would have (maybe a couple years), or a Kobold, (a couple months?).

As I stated above: “I’m not saying the game should change, but it certainly doesn’t make sense that the 175-year old Elf has the same breath of life experience (“proficiencies”) as a 20-ish human.”

The fictions of elves, and other races with different life and maturation expectations, doesn’t make sense.

Take your 400 year old farmer. Stuff that’s counted in generations for humans happened in their life time. I’m not great with history, but I sure as heck know stuff that happened in my lifetime much better than anything I didn’t particularly put in a good deal of time studying. “History” to the 400 year old Elf isn’t the same thing as “History” to the Human. Working as a farmer for 380+ years would be worth at least Expertise in Survival and/or Nature (what hasn’t been seen in 400 years of farming?), whatever “History” occurred then, probably some skill, if not expertise in Land Vehicles, Expertise in Animal Handling (assuming livestock), maybe Medicine, and probably other stuff someone who actually has been a farmer could add.

The main thing is, the fiction tells us that a 125 year old elf, in 107 extra years of doing stuff, learns absolutely nothing: they know just as much as the 18 year old Human. That extra century of experience is worth absolutely nothing.

That doesn’t make sense, though I understand it for balance (though I imagine something like the new Trance feature could cover some ground).

[Hail Tempus]

Elves as kind of distractible dilettantes does seem to mesh somewhat with the alternative source material I mentioned in the original post.
I wouldn't call them necessarily distractable. It's more along the lines of, after spending decades doing a particular thing, a long-lived person might get tired of that occupation, hobby, or relationship, and want to try something else. When you live for centuries, why tie yourself down to one thing for your entire life?

[Hail Tempus]

Why haven’t they been fighting for 400 years if they’re 500 years old? We are talking about worlds where monsters and different beings all have issues with each other, not to mention all the trouble the gods bring into it. I mean, FR has like three gods of war, and a few of death.

I mean, take a PC elf, Soldier or Mercenary background, make them about 125 years old. Haven’t they now been a Soldier or Mercenary for a while? Even if their background only covers the last 10-15 years, that’s way more time than an equivalent 18 year old Human would have (maybe a couple years), or a Kobold, (a couple months?).

As I stated above: “I’m not saying the game should change, but it certainly doesn’t make sense that the 175-year old Elf has the same breath of life experience (“proficiencies”) as a 20-ish human.”

The fictions of elves, and other races with different life and maturation expectations, doesn’t make sense.

The elf who has been fighting for 400 years isn't going to be a 1st level adventurer. He's going to have a much more powerful stat block (such as the Warlord). A 1st level adventurer, of whatever race, only became an adventurer relatively recently. Their background is what they were doing right before they became an adventurer, even if they may have had other professions in the past.

[RSP]

The elf who has been fighting for 400 years isn't going to be a 1st level adventurer. He's going to have a much more powerful stat block (such as the Warlord). A 1st level adventurer, of whatever race, only became an adventurer relatively recently. Their background is what they were doing right before they became an adventurer, even if they may have had other professions in the past.

This leads to obvious world building issues. If your army is made up of beings who have studied warcraft for centuries, yes, they should be much better than anything humans roll out. But if your average Elven Soldier is equivalent to a CR 12 monster, then they probably don’t need Tier 1 or 2 adventurers for much.

As to the second part: you’re incorrect on what backgrounds are. For example, the Soldier says this right off the bat:

“War has been your life for as long as you care to
remember.”

I mean, that’s a long time for a 125 year old elf…

[Rukelnikov]

The thing is, Elves, at least Tolkien elves whom DnD elves strongly take from, are not a low level archetype, they are mysterious beings that have perceptions that humans don't and memories of what are effectively myths or legends. I used to say in 3e that Elves should just have had level adjustment, and you know what, they did for Drow, and that was good, but the want to have Elves be accessible from the very first moment, and this is in direct contrast to them not being a low level archetype.

This puts the game designers in a problem, they can't have elves be mechanically more powerful than the other races, but by allowing them parts of their archetype like their long lives, and even suggesting a starting age of 100+, they are giving them non quantifiable power, have you ever been in a scene where an npc goes:

"If what's written on the the scrolls you found is correct, I'm afraid we are facing the return of Victor Don Doomsday, a powerful barbarian who learnt the ways of the artifice to complement his strength, he ravaged the land about a dozen decades ago"

And then an Elf or Dwarf goes:

"Victor Don Doomsday... yeah, I remember well, it all started in the 1200s, I used to hug trees (or wrestle orcs) a tenday north of here at those times..."

Being 100+ years old is a narrative boon, it also leaves a lot more space for story hooks and backgrounds, "we hunted devils for a century, and then he sold his soul to one in exchange for his son's freedom, and I'll never forgive him for that"

There's also setting related stuff, like in the realms (much like in Arda), elves had been ruling the land for the past ages, so there's a myriad scattered things that work X but Y for elves, like mythals, magic items, or access to evermeet.

So while their 100+ years are not reflected per se in the statblock, they can, and IME are, present in the narrative.

[Bohandas]

IIRC, Discworld elves are wasp-like creatures

I thought they were more like gray aliens IIRC

[Unoriginal]

I thought they were more like gray aliens IIRC

Physically, they indeed do look similar to the Grey, being small humanoids with big eyes, small mouth and triangular faces under the projected glamour.

They're compared to wasps at one point, but it's in term of behavior.

Worth noting that the Discworld Elves' glamour is extremely potent, with even the best witches and wizards of the Disc being unable to see through it fully unless the elf has been weakened. Even Susan wielding most of the power of Death doesn't do as well.

Discworld's Elves are also extremely vulnerable to iron, because it disturbs their magnetic sense, which is their main sense and the mean by which they project their glamour and other power shenanigans.

[Millstone85]

They're compared to wasps at one point, but it's in term of behavior.I remember it getting more literal in later books.

[Unoriginal]

I remember it getting more literal in later books.

The Elves appear in four books in total: Lords and Ladies, The Science of Disworld II: the Globe, The Wee Free Men and The Shepherd Crown.

I don't recall the Elves being described as physically insect-like at any point.

[Millstone85]

The Elves appear in four books in total: Lords and Ladies, The Science of Disworld II: the Globe, The Wee Free Men and The Shepherd Crown.

I don't recall the Elves being described as physically insect-like at any point.At the very least, The Shepherd's Crown describes the elf queen with wings that:

Do not disappear when her glamor is destroyed by a rival.
Leave her with bleeding shoulders after being ripped off.

Which, combined with all the comparisons to social insects, makes me think that the elf queen's true form was some sort of alien fairy.

I "could swear" there were more clues but I would have to reread it all. Or read it for the first time, in the case of TSoD II.

[Bohandas]

The main thing is, the fiction tells us that a 125 year old elf, in 107 extra years of doing stuff, learns absolutely nothing: they know just as much as the 18 year old Human. That extra century of experience is worth absolutely nothing.

That doesn’t make sense, though I understand it for balance (though I imagine something like the new Trance feature could cover some ground).

The way I would handle this is to have there be NO Commoners. Not everyone is a PC class, but everyone is at least an Expert or Warrior, or possibly even an Adept or Magewright. A high number of Adepts and Magewrights also contributes to their society being magical and exotic.

[Unoriginal]

At the very least, The Shepherd's Crown describes the elf queen with wings that:

Do not disappear when her glamor is destroyed by a rival.
Leave her with bleeding shoulders after being ripped off.

Which, combined with all the comparisons to social insects, makes me think that the elf queen's true form was some sort of alien fairy.

"Alien fairy" is a good description for Discworld's Elves.

[NecessaryWeevil]

At the very least, The Shepherd's Crown describes the elf queen with wings that:

Do not disappear when her glamor is destroyed by a rival.
Leave her with bleeding shoulders after being ripped off.

Which, combined with all the comparisons to social insects, makes me think that the elf queen's true form was some sort of alien fairy.

I "could swear" there were more clues but I would have to reread it all. Or read it for the first time, in the case of TSoD II.

I think there's a scene in which Tiffany goes into a painting / dream / memory, and two of the inhabitants / Queen's minions are sort of like large bee-women. Could that be what you're recalling?

[Slipjig]

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.

Yeah, the canonical Elven life timeline in D&D makes zero sense. "They age as fast as humans until they hit 18, then spend a full century living with their parents as 18-year-olds before they are considered 'adults' and leave home." What are they doing during that century? Nobody seems quite sure.

It would make a whole lot more sense if they just aged at 1/5 the rate of humans the whole time.


If you've been a farmer for 300 years, you should be REALLY GOOD at farming. But that's not what D&D covers.

That's not really true though. With very few exceptions, the learning curve on most professions levels off after a few years. The person who has been a seamstress for 30 years probably isn't significantly better than the person who has been doing it for five. If you've spent 50 years as the village blacksmith, but you are still making the same horseshoes and nails you learned to make as an apprentice, you are probably still a Level 1 Expert. Situations where you aren't challenged and don't learn anything shouldn't grant XP.

That applies to fighting disciplines, too. If you learn all the techniques of your school and earn a Black Belt (Level 1 Monk), and then never do anything but practice those same techniques in your dojo without learning anything new, you'll still be a Level 1 Monk 100 years later, no matter how many times you run through those kata.

[Rukelnikov]

That applies to fighting disciplines, too. If you learn all the techniques of your school and earn a Black Belt (Level 1 Monk), and then never do anything but practice those same techniques in your dojo without learning anything new, you'll still be a Level 1 Monk 100 years later, no matter how many times you run through those kata.

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

[RSP]

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

Yeah, if I’ve learned anything from Daniel LaRusso, it’s that practicing the basics, repeatedly, will get you better and better, with each movie.

[Sorinth]

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

That's very true but is there a big difference between the person who practised that one kick 10,000 times and one practised it 100,000 times. In the original example the ratio is 1:10000 in the other it's a factor of 1:10. And it's not like gains will be linear, the first thousand repetitions will provide more growth then the next thousand which provide more growth then the thousand after that, etc... The first ten thousand take you from beginner to expert, but to go from expert to whatever tier is above that is probably a lot more then just repetitions.

[KorvinStarmast]

What are they doing during that century? Playing too many video games in the basement. (But man, they always get the high score on those games when we go to a tavern. How do they do it?)

[Rukelnikov]

That's very true but is there a big difference between the person who practised that one kick 10,000 times and one practised it 100,000 times. In the original example the ratio is 1:10000 in the other it's a factor of 1:10. And it's not like gains will be linear, the first thousand repetitions will provide more growth then the next thousand which provide more growth then the thousand after that, etc... The first ten thousand take you from beginner to expert, but to go from expert to whatever tier is above that is probably a lot more then just repetitions.

The difference between 10k and 100k will be smaller than 0 to 10k, but there will be a difference nonetheless. It'd probably require a certain understanding of the discipline to grasp the difference in mastery though.

[stoutstien]

I don't tend to have elves as a playable race in my settings but when I do I tend to lean on the ingrained chaos/freedom angle.
Young elves lack the discipline and focus to really learn much of anything past basic tasks. some communities go as far as exiling the young for their youth until their instincts hits some form of equilibrium. Others set mind numbing tasks that can take centuries to perform before the are allowed to pick up any form of real learning.

One player has an elf that spent nearly 80 years counting the thorns in a grove before they shown the necessary patience to begin their path as a cleric.

[Segev]

I do think that the current canon for D&D elves — where they age like humans until their prime, then stay in their prime for hundreds of years, but are considered 'children' the way we consider 17-year-olds to be children until they're 120 or so — should have adventuring elves be 'children' by elven standards. Runaway brats who are going out in the world without proper supervision at age 26, or the like.

My personal preference, though, is for elves to age much more slowly throw out their long lives, so that a 50-year-old elf is still equivalent to a 7 to 10 year old human in growth. With thus comes a biological immaturity to their emotional and mental development. Maybe exceptional circumstances could make them grow up faster, mentally, the way some human kids are forced to by tragic circumstances, but normal, healthy upbringing sees them learning facts and figures, sure, but not the maturity to apply themselves properly to develop skills until they are 115 or so. They learn that much more slowly because they're lay are kiddos, and while kids learn things fast, they also forget them and don't focus and refine them if they're not fun and interesting. And maybe elves shelter them, too, deliberately not teaching them adventuring skills that they would endanger themselves practicing, until they are physically able to handle it more safely.

[Rukelnikov]

Consider that by current canon, a 25 yo Elf might be more mature than a 50 yo one, cause the 25 yo can still remember their past lives and time in arborea, a 50 yo or so is going thru the trauma of losing/having lost that remembrance, which I think act as the equivalent of human adolescence.

[Sorinth]

One angle to consider is that they will need/want a much different work/life balance because you can't follow the human model of become an adult work over half your life and then retire when that work half your life is 400+ years rather then 40. Even if you are changing what work you are doing it's still not all that viable because of the risk of burnout. And burnout from working too hard could very easily be seen as something that culturally elves would be very sensitive too and keen to avoid. So not only would gap years (Or even decades) become common but a typical work week would also probably way less actual work. So for example an elven blacksmith might only spend 2hrs a day at the forge compared to the 8 hour day a human would and as a result take over 4 or even more times (Loss of efficiency) as long to complete the same task. This also kind of leans into the elves are flighty/carefree vibe that they already kind of have as fae and gives that it will get done when it's done, no need to rush it vibe where everyone treats it as there's plenty of time to relax and enjoy oneself.

So an elf noble commissions a famous elf painter to do a family portrait. Rather the one sitting and maybe a few weeks for the artist to do the final touchups, it's a several sittings spread over a whole year where the artist basically moves in with the noble family as a guest and there's constant food and parties and poetry, and other social complexities involved. So the elven painter whose been painting for 400 years might still have less total works done then a human painter over 10 years.

[Slipjig]

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

...is what the sensei who has run out of new things to teach you will say. Sure, you need to practice to MAINTAIN your skills, but you aren't getting any better.

But even if we accept it as true, you hit that 10,000 rep number in a single year doing just 27 reps a day, which should take about 5 minutes daily.

[Rukelnikov]

...is what the sensei who has run out of new things to teach you will say. Sure, you need to practice to MAINTAIN your skills, but you aren't getting any better.

But even if we accept it as true, you hit that 10,000 rep number in a single year doing just 27 reps a day, which should take about 5 minutes daily.

That quote is attributed to Bruce Lee, maybe he ran out of things to teach, but still probably a cut above your regular black belt.

[RSP]

That quote is attributed to Bruce Lee, maybe he ran out of things to teach, but still probably a cut above your regular black belt.

Imagine if he had 100 years to train…

[Anonymouswizard]

One of 4e's better ideas was cutting back elven lifespan.

An idea I had for a setting was making elves be serial hermaphrodites, although I never fully settled on how it worked. But basically they'd have a childhood and grow into adulthood by about age 40, at which point they'd be sex A and overtaken by wanderlust, and these were the elves most people encountered. Eventually, probably sometime in their hundreds, they'd start transitioning and find a community to settle down in and raise children. I think they actually went female->male with relatively short pregnancies, I wanted the wanders to be female to play off the 'effeminate elf' idea.

I never quite worked out if half-elves fit into this somehow or if they just didn't exist.

[Bohandas]

What are they doing during that century?

I still think that the best way to answer that question without having to change the game too much would be "becoming a class other than commoner".

[Doug Lampert]

I still think that the best way to answer that question without having to change the game too much would be "becoming a class other than commoner".
Agreed.

If you want to you can just assume that a human level 1 PC is an exceptionally capable human, while an Elf level 1 PC flunked out of adventurer school six times and all his childhood school buddies are now archmages or something.

PCs being balanced does not mean that the races are balanced, because starting PCs are not random selections from their races, they are specifically selected to be people who've just reached level 1 in a PC class.

Maybe for a kobold that's one in a million, maybe for a human it's one in a thousand, maybe for an elf it's one in 5 and the only reason it's that low is that the other 4 had no interest at all in learning to fight or risking their lives in adventures.

[Bohandas]

I wasn't talking specifically for player characters or player character classes. I meant like the entire elfin village is experts and adepts or better

[JackPhoenix]

Why haven’t they been fighting for 400 years if they’re 500 years old?

Fighting in wars tend to have rather detrimental effect on one's lifespan. If they've been fighting constantly, it's rather unlikely they'll live to be 500 years old. Sure, elves who lived and fought for that long would be terrifying enemies, like every old man in a profession when men die young. They'll also be extremely rare, because while they are not subject to old age like humans are, they are not immune to attrition, and there's much less of them to begin with compared to humans.


I wasn't talking specifically for player characters or player character classes. I meant like the entire elfin village is experts and adepts or better

Are you sure you're on the right section of the forums? No such thing in 5e.

[Hurrashane]

I do think that the current canon for D&D elves — where they age like humans until their prime, then stay in their prime for hundreds of years, but are considered 'children' the way we consider 17-year-olds to be children until they're 120 or so — should have adventuring elves be 'children' by elven standards. Runaway brats who are going out in the world without proper supervision at age 26, or the like.



I've always liked the idea of playing a young elf like that. Have them act like they're so much better, so much more experianced than like, the humans in the party. Only for when they get to elven lands they find out they're essently a petulant child.

[Bohandas]

Are you sure you're on the right section of the forums? No such thing in 5e.

Oops. Well whatever the 5e equivalents are then

[JackPhoenix]

Oops. Well whatever the 5e equivalents are then

Commoners. That's your generic non-combatant statblock.

[Bundin]

That's very true but is there a big difference between the person who practised that one kick 10,000 times and one practised it 100,000 times. In the original example the ratio is 1:10000 in the other it's a factor of 1:10. And it's not like gains will be linear, the first thousand repetitions will provide more growth then the next thousand which provide more growth then the thousand after that, etc... The first ten thousand take you from beginner to expert, but to go from expert to whatever tier is above that is probably a lot more then just repetitions.

That doesn't mesh well with PB going up relatively quickly, once the party of humans and elfs/elves start adventuring.

It could be explained (but still not perfectly) by the way society looks at them. Maybe society doesn't really expect anything from them for the first decades. After all, they're not considered to be adults. So they do what some/many kids and adolescents do when given the chance: fk about and have fun. And then grow into a 'background' when it's age appropriate. Which could be early, if it's Urchin :)

[Grim Portent]

A way to portray it along the dilettante profession changing line of thought would be that elves don't think of themselves as one person, but rather several people over the course of their life, and actively lose their prior skills as they age and change vocation.

When Archmage Finriel Leafhair retires and becomes a baker for the next century, the Archmage is dead, all his skills psychologically blocked off from Pastry Chef Finriel Leafhair. He still has a lot of the knowledge, but is unable and uninterested in applying it to anything, because as far as he's concerned he's not the Archmage, he's just living in the same the body the mage used to. He still knows where his magical artifacts were left, who took over for his wizard tower and so on, but they aren't things he knows about himself, they're things he knows about a person he never met. A sort of partial-reincarnation as it were.

One in a thousand or so elves just don't do this, and instead stay in one role for their whole life, growing to great levels of skill, but the rest just kind of meander through one life after another.


For this idea a starting elf PC is freshly born-again for the first time at about 100 years. They spent some 20 years growing to adulthood, then most of a century in some profession or other, then forgot most of it to take up the sword or spell in the past couple of years. A 500 year old elf is basically the same, they've just 'died' a few more times before.

[Bohandas]

Commoners. That's your generic non-combatant statblock.

Is there an equivalent of the old adept or magewright classes?

[Rukelnikov]

Is there an equivalent of the old adept or magewright classes?

I'd argue the Sidekick classes are basically that, take a commoner, and give them levels in Expert, Spellcaster or Warrior, and you have what you are looking for.

[RSP]

I'd argue the Sidekick classes are basically that, take a commoner, and give them levels in Expert, Spellcaster or Warrior, and you have what you are looking for.

Which leaves us with 1st level PCs being below average unless they 20-year old kids that ran away from home or some such. It’s unfortunately the only backstory that actually makes sense.

[Anymage]

Elves being slackers who take forever to learn their craft (whether this applies to all elves or just PC ones) runs into the immediate problem that many players are disinterested in playing slackers. Plus, it stretches credulity a bit to say that the human, the slacker elf, and the incredibly fast learning aarakocra all happen to wind up having the exact same leveling speed once they begin adventuring with each other.

If I had to try and justify it, I'd go with saying that elves around age 20 were encouraged to go out and adventure. Many will die, but the ones who do return will come back with knowledge, broadened perspectives, and most importantly a good chunk of levels. It helps make them slightly alien, and also helps make elves look badass when every adult elf happens to be a seasoned ex-adventurer.

[RSP]

If I had to try and justify it, I'd go with saying that elves around age 20 were encouraged to go out and adventure. Many will die, but the ones who do return will come back with knowledge, broadened perspectives, and most importantly a good chunk of levels. It helps make them slightly alien, and also helps make elves look badass when every adult elf happens to be a seasoned ex-adventurer.

But wouldn’t that then mean elves from 50-750 are all at least tier 2 in some class or equivalent, but more likely tier 3 or 4? This has the world building issue of if every adult elf has years as an adventurer under their belt, why would elves ever have issues needing handling by level 1 adventurers?

Not to mention having a PC elf that’s 125 years old means you’re starting with 100 years adventuring experience…

[JackPhoenix]

But wouldn’t that then mean elves from 50-750 are all at least tier 2 in some class or equivalent, but more likely tier 3 or 4? This has the world building issue of if every adult elf has years as an adventurer under their belt, why would elves ever have issues needing handling by level 1 adventurers?

Not to mention having a PC elf that’s 125 years old means you’re starting with 100 years adventuring experience…

That assumes they've been actively adventuring for 100 years, which is not appropriate background for a level 1 character, not anymore than being a human who's been doing the same for 30 years. If they've been running around stabbing orcs for 5 years, and then settled down on a farm or something for 80 years, the orc-stabbing skills will be long forgotten.

Skills that aren't actively used and maintained are lost. There's nothing suggesting the elves are an exception.


Is there an equivalent of the old adept or magewright classes?

No. NPCs don't have classes. Adept (weak divine caster) can be covered by Acolyte stat block, or just give commoners few spells (that's how Magewrights work per E:RftLW... just a commoner with few appropriate spells).

[RSP]

That assumes they've been actively adventuring for 100 years, which is not appropriate background for a level 1 character, not anymore than being a human who's been doing the same for 30 years. If they've been running around stabbing orcs for 5 years, and then settled down on a farm or something for 80 years, the orc-stabbing skills will be long forgotten.

Skills that aren't actively used and maintained are lost. There's nothing suggesting the elves are an exception.

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact. We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

It just seems like the only ways to play an elf PC logically is the “20 year old run away teenager”. Or dump Int hard and play into it.

[Segev]

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact. We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

It just seems like the only ways to play an elf PC logically is the “20 year old run away teenager”. Or dump Int hard and play into it.

You could go with elves just aging that slowly, so they aren't even "young teen" looking until their late 90s. Sure, they might pick up a lot more life experience than humans, but physically and emotionally and even mentally, they aren't mature until they are 115-130 or so. 115 is maybe 15 to 20 equivalent in humans. So they are only just getting to the point that they don't think girls (or boys) are icky, and are just getting to the point where most can really train executive function without supervision. The 125-year-old Elf is a studious and mature 19-equivalent who has the discipline to self-motivate his wizardry or warrior studies and NOT flip out and try to prove he's the toughest thing since dwarf bread at the first insult.

Sure, there are exceptions. The tragic kid rogue who grew up too fast on the mean streets is a trope for a reason. But most elves, in this formulation, are not 'stupid' or the like any more than human kids are. It is more than time that goes into maturity; biology and the development of the brian plays a huge role, too.

[Rukelnikov]

No. NPCs don't have classes. Adept (weak divine caster) can be covered by Acolyte stat block, or just give commoners few spells (that's how Magewrights work per E:RftLW... just a commoner with few appropriate spells).

Not true, the Sidekick classes are specifically designed for NPCs, plus even in the DMG its stated NPCs can have classes.

[DragonEyeSeeker]

EGG would have been better off not including them in the game. (And yes, I played my share of hobbit thieves back in the day).

I generally agree with this. No edition of D&D has ever really done anything interesting with Halflings as a society. They either wind up being less interesting Hobbits or uninteresting river trader people (who are often thieves (or at least seen to be thieves)). There are far more interesting races you could insert into that coveted PHB Race slot.


Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.

To a dog, humans take an entire life time just to become an adult. What are human babies doing in that time period other than wasting time?

[RSP]

You could go with elves just aging that slowly, so they aren't even "young teen" looking until their late 90s. Sure, they might pick up a lot more life experience than humans, but physically and emotionally and even mentally, they aren't mature until they are 115-130 or so. 115 is maybe 15 to 20 equivalent in humans. So they are only just getting to the point that they don't think girls (or boys) are icky, and are just getting to the point where most can really train executive function without supervision. The 125-year-old Elf is a studious and mature 19-equivalent who has the discipline to self-motivate his wizardry or warrior studies and NOT flip out and try to prove he's the toughest thing since dwarf bread at the first insult.

You could, but 5e doesn’t. And it still traps you in the “I’m just an 18 year old equivalent” backstory. VHumans, at least can take Skilled or Prodigy to show that they’ve spent time learning (were you wanting to be a 30-year old human, or just an extraordinarily skilled person).

And you still run into the issue of people actually learn a ridiculous lot during their childhood, probably at a greater rate than adults, who probably learn more in depth about fewer things than non-adults. Think of how much is learned from K-12. Now make that K-124…it doesn’t actually make it more reasonable.

It also doesn’t do anything for world building as you still have Elves being ridiculously more capable than humans, even if you exclude years 0–100. You still have nations full of people in their prime with 4-10 times the experience of the most apt humans.



To a dog, humans take an entire life time just to become an adult. What are human babies doing in that time period other than wasting time?

But dogs aren’t learning at the level of humans. I don’t know why you think this argument helps.

If you’re saying “real dogs=5e Humans”, and “real people=5e Elves”; then all you’re doing is pointing out how much better 5e elves should be over 5e humans.

By this model, an Elf PC should know so much more, understand so much more, that the span of it doesn’t fit within the 5e stystem. Literally, it would be the elf saying to the human: “I could sit here all day talking about the most basic, mundane elements of what I know, and you’d barely understand what I meant by ‘sit’.”

[Segev]

If you go with the Mordenkainen Tome of Foes explanation, the sub-centurion elf is more a prophetic waif type than a playable character, being an amalgam of childish innocence and ancient memories of past lives. The 100-year-old has finally had the final death of the ancient person he was born as, and is a vaguely-adultish person finally ready to learn something new in this lifetime. By 115 or 120, he's ready to be a normal adult with adequate training for adventuring or whatnot.

I personally hate this version, but it is technically canon for 5e.

[JackPhoenix]

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.
Why? If he didn't practice adventuring skills for 80 years, those skills are gone. Maybe the elf's got vague memories what it was like fighting orcs, but without practice, that all he's got.
And you're the only one claiming EVERY adult elf has that experience.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact.
Sure, but said impact may be "Well, this feels somewhat familiar, I think I've done this decades ago."

We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.
Because it's more catchy piece of propaganda than "we eat crayons"?

[DragonEyeSeeker]

But dogs aren’t learning at the level of humans. I don’t know why you think this argument helps.

If you’re saying “real dogs=5e Humans”, and “real people=5e Elves”; then all you’re doing is pointing out how much better 5e elves should be over 5e humans.

By this model, an Elf PC should know so much more, understand so much more, that the span of it doesn’t fit within the 5e stystem. Literally, it would be the elf saying to the human: “I could sit here all day talking about the most basic, mundane elements of what I know, and you’d barely understand what I meant by ‘sit’.”

Elves are not real. The authors and DMs can input any number into the age chart and say "that is how it works in this world." :smallsmile:

Ages in strict race/class-based games do not make much sense because, inherently, every character must be roughly balanced off against one another. A 14 year old half-orc wizard is exactly as competent as a 110 year old elf wizard.

In editions prior, the general hand waive that was done to justify this is that an Elf spends years perfectly mastering a given spell, performing it with exacting precision, where as a human learns the spell once and does his best to replicate it again the next time he casts the spell. If his hand motions and vocalizations were not exactly the same as the last time he cast the spell, who cares? So long as the spell was successfully cast, the human is happy.

[Anymage]

It also doesn’t do anything for world building as you still have Elves being ridiculously more capable than humans, even if you exclude years 0–100. You still have nations full of people in their prime with 4-10 times the experience of the most apt humans.

This is very much in keeping with the tolkienesque flavor that D&D elves are based on, where their society is basically filled with beings better than a human society could dream of. If you don't want that and want elves to be more like any other sort of folks you'll have to cut their age down appreciably.

At least it's not hard to explain why societies of high level elves rarely get involved. Between realizing that intervention often brings unexpected consequences and knowing that adventuring risks having all their accumulated experience and potential lifespan cut short, elves are often content to let shorter lived societies grow through issues on their own unless those issues are a pressing and immediate threat to the elves.

[RSP]

Why? If he didn't practice adventuring skills for 80 years, those skills are gone. Maybe the elf's got vague memories what it was like fighting orcs, but without practice, that all he's got.
And you're the only one claiming EVERY adult elf has that experience.

Every adult elf has experience well beyond what humans have, particularly younger adult humans. Skills don’t necessarily diminish the way you claim they do. Do people, in your experience, forget how to ride a bike? Or Swim? Or climb?

I still remember plenty of things I learned decades ago. I’m sorry if that’s not your experience.

[Skrum]

At the table I play at, a major piece of setting lore is a cataclysmic event some 1,000 years ago that spread through the elven kingdoms like a curse or disease. It lowered the life span of elves to 200 *at the very highest.* Elves in this world mature at the same rate as humans, and then live for some hundred years longer (or more likely, die to violence. Ain't easy being an elf).

Because yeah, as this thread demonstrates, there is no good answer or way to handle a playable race that only reaches maturity after most races are already dead.

[Sorinth]

And you still run into the issue of people actually learn a ridiculous lot during their childhood, probably at a greater rate than adults, who probably learn more in depth about fewer things than non-adults. Think of how much is learned from K-12. Now make that K-124…it doesn’t actually make it more reasonable.

Perhaps Elf School is only 2hrs a day so right off the bat it takes 4 times as many years to cover the same material. Plus there's likely a big loss in efficiency with more time spent refreshing previously taught material.

[RSP]

Perhaps Elf School is only 2hrs a day so right off the bat it takes 4 times as many years to cover the same material. Plus there's likely a big loss in efficiency with more time spent refreshing previously taught material.

Having to come up with these things just to make the race seem playable (even if only in school 2 hours a day, for some reason if inefficiency, they’re still doing stuff for the other 18 they’re not Trancing…oh, yeah, humans have 16 hours of awake time/day, while Elves have 20…so even if they didn’t live so much longer, they’d still have 25% more time to learn, but they have that AND decades more time…) is kind of the point.

Plus, your theory banks on middle aged people being less experienced than teenagers, because of a huge loss in efficiency in middle aged people having to constantly be refreshing material.

[KorvinStarmast]

That quote is attributed to Bruce Lee, maybe he ran out of things to teach, but still probably a cut above your regular black belt. It's how golfers perfect certain shots. But they don't stick with "one kick" however they do tend to stick with one swing rhythm. Muscle memory allows certain things to be nearly reflexive and perfect at the same time. Bruce was a bit off with that remark, however, since he was a good enough fighter to know that what he needed to fear was not one kick, but a well practiced series of combinations. Going to another sport, Kobe Bryant (may he rest in peace) worked on perfecting hundreds of subtly different moves long before he played them on court. What we saw on camera/in game was the result of hours and hours he spent perfecting a variety of moves and shots.
Jack Nicklaus, back to golf, made hitting a one iron look easy. Why? He practiced it. And through practice he mastered it.

If you want to you can just assume that a human level 1 PC is an exceptionally capable human, while an Elf level 1 PC flunked out of adventurer school six times and all his childhood school buddies are now archmages or something. Makes no sense. That many archmages running amok equals Tippyverse.

PCs ... are specifically selected to be people who've just reached level 1 in a PC class. Correct.

Fighting in wars tend to have rather detrimental effect on one's lifespan. So I hear. I wish someone would notify the rubes writing for Amazon's LotR Second Age series with a certain elf protagonist.

Commoners. That's your generic non-combatant statblock. Yes. I wish more folks would embrace the idea that most folks met are commoners. (The modules do a good job of this, mostly, in 5e).

It’s unfortunately the only backstory that actually makes sense. Only for those who lack imagination.

I generally agree with this. No edition of D&D has ever really done anything interesting with Halflings as a society. Not much to work with.

Because it's more catchy piece of propaganda than "we eat crayons"? I have it on good authority (from the lips of a very drunken lance corporal) that the different colors do each have a different taste.

[RSP]

Elves are not real. The authors and DMs can input any number into the age chart and say "that is how it works in this world." :smallsmile:

Ages in strict race/class-based games do not make much sense because, inherently, every character must be roughly balanced off against one another. A 14 year old half-orc wizard is exactly as competent as a 110 year old elf wizard.

Right so the 14 year old half-orc is so exceptional they’ve surpassed the 110 year old elf, even though the elf has had a hundred years more of training, learning, experiencing.

So, again, you have to play a hard Int-dumped elf for it to make sense; and no elf PC can ever actually be considered exceptional seeing as how they’re so far behind, even if equal.



In editions prior, the general hand waive that was done to justify this is that an Elf spends years perfectly mastering a given spell, performing it with exacting precision, where as a human learns the spell once and does his best to replicate it again the next time he casts the spell. If his hand motions and vocalizations were not exactly the same as the last time he cast the spell, who cares? So long as the spell was successfully cast, the human is happy.

If that is supposed to mean elves learn things perfectly while humans don’t, shouldn’t they then be naturally Expertise in what they do know? Isn’t that what being an expert is: knowing something perfectly?

[KorvinStarmast]

Right so the 14 year old half-orc is so exceptional they’ve surpassed the 110 year old elf, Back to humans in rubber masks, are we? May as well watch Star Trek, Deep Space Whine.

[RSP]

Back to humans in rubber masks, are we? May as well watch Star Trek, Deep Space Whine.

Other way around, I think: people fail to comceptualize what a 125 year old+ being would be like so it’s a shrug and “just like an 18 year old human I guess…”

[JackPhoenix]

If that is supposed to mean elves learn things perfectly while humans don’t, shouldn’t they then be naturally Expertise in what they do know? Isn’t that what being an expert is: knowing something perfectly?

Doing something the exactly the same way it was done before is not the same thing as doing it better.

[RSP]

Doing something the exactly the same way it was done before is not the same thing as doing it better.

Sure? What does that have to do with what I was responding to? The term used was “perfectly”. Are you saying humans not doing it perfectly is better than doing it perfectly???

Not sure where you’re going with this.

[Segev]

I mean, now we are starting in on the fact that a player character can go from a fresh apprentice or journeyman in his craft to the greatest master of his archetype in the world in a month, if a campaign is paced fast enough.

He was a half-orc rogue on the streets at level one, but picked up a spellbook at level three or four (maybe getting a level of Arcane Trickster in before multiclassing, maybe not) and is now level 20, with ninth level spells as a wizard 17 or 18 / rogue 2 or 3.

The elven druid in his party likewise went from apprentice initiate into a druid circle to arch druid greater than his Circle has seen in generations (of elves) in the same month.

The elf is barely an adult by hus people's standards, and has surpassed elders who are level 10 magi. The half-orc is still mid-puberty and is one of the most powerful and possibly magically knowledgeable beings in the setting!

[RSP]

I mean, now we are starting in on the fact that a player character can go from a fresh apprentice or journeyman in his craft to the greatest master of his archetype in the world in a month, if a campaign is paced fast enough.

Yes and no. I believe the idea for PCs is “this is the start of your adventuring career”. So, in theory, regardless of age, you haven’t started adventuring yet.

One poster mentioned explaining the elf issue, by suggesting the elves are encouraged to adventure at around age 20. If that’s the case, then you have a world building issue of the society of adult elves being filled with experienced adventurers of different levels.

How they progress during adventures is going to differ, but you would, I imagine, have different degrees of experience and ability.

Campaign timing and accelerated leveling is a different issue than how poorly elves as a race are shown in terms of how much actual experience they should have.

[Segev]

Yes and no. I believe the idea for PCs is “this is the start of your adventuring career”. So, in theory, regardless of age, you haven’t started adventuring yet.

One poster mentioned explaining the elf issue, by suggesting the elves are encouraged to adventure at around age 20. If that’s the case, then you have a world building issue of the society of adult elves being filled with experienced adventurers of different levels.

How they progress during adventures is going to differ, but you would, I imagine, have different degrees of experience and ability.

Campaign timing and accelerated leveling is a different issue than how poorly elves as a race are shown in terms of how much actual experience they should have.

Maybe, but if the primary advancement is through those concentrated weeks of adventuring, maybe nobody gets past level 1 without doing those adventures. They don't let their elven 'kids' out until they are 'adults.'

Remember that NPCs don't typically have 'class levels.' You could represent elves being that much more learned by having more archmagi and fewer apprentice wizards in their societies, though.

[Bohandas]

What if we kept the maturation rate the same but lowered the starting age for adventurers so you have just a bunch of tween looking adventurers running around like it was a cartoon show

[Sorinth]

Having to come up with these things just to make the race seem playable (even if only in school 2 hours a day, for some reason if inefficiency, they’re still doing stuff for the other 18 they’re not Trancing…oh, yeah, humans have 16 hours of awake time/day, while Elves have 20…so even if they didn’t live so much longer, they’d still have 25% more time to learn, but they have that AND decades more time…) is kind of the point.

Plus, your theory banks on middle aged people being less experienced than teenagers, because of a huge loss in efficiency in middle aged people having to constantly be refreshing material.

The race is playable regardless and is no more immersion breaking then a level 1 PC who is 40 year old human with the Soldier background who fought in many wars but is still level 1. Or the level 1 Fighter who left the family farm two days ago but is proficient with weapons and armour they've never even seen before.

The point is more that the assumption of a human work ethic probably isn't going to be true for an elf. If they spend those extra hours gossiping with friends they won't have learnt new skills or become experts at their day job despite all the extra years. You have to put in real work to get better, just because they have the time to put in that work doesn't mean they have actually done it.

[Bohandas]

If they spend those extra hours gossiping with friends they won't have learnt new skills

Sorry, I'm not super familiar with 5e, does 5e also not have social interaction skills anymore? Some equivalent of diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, etc.?

[Sorinth]

Sorry, I'm not super familiar with 5e, does 5e also not have social interaction skills anymore? Some equivalent of diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, etc.?

Does gossiping with friends for a 100 years actually going to make you generally good at Persuasion or Deception? I'd say no unless it's with those specific friends in which case advantage seems appropriate.

[RedMage125]

But 50 years doing anything is going to be much more proficient than a 20-something year old human would have, in terms of knowing what you were doing. If a human PC begins the story at 25-years old, that’s about 5-10 years of life being accounted for by their Background

Aide-expectancy comparably aged Elf, is starting that campaign at about 175. Even if only accounting for the last 50 years, that’s still 5-10 times the years being accounted for by the background.

I’m not saying the game should change, but it certainly doesn’t make sense that the 175-year old Elf has the same breath of life experience (“proficiencies”) as a 20-ish human.
As far as the fiction layer, as I recall from The Complete Book Of Elves (2e), Races of the Wild (3.5e), and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (5e), they all specify that elves reach physical maturity at the same rate as humans. At which point. Aging basically stops for a few hundred years. RoW explicitly said that even another elf can't tell a 30 yo elf from a 150 yo one.

What I haven't seen anyone mention is that the starting age assumes that the elf was raised in elf society. The difference is cultural. Elves place almost no pressure at all on their young adults to be productive members of society. They spend decades studying art, music, sandwiches, whatever. This is a time for them to "find themselves". And, like has been mentioned, skills atrophy. So even if they spent 20 years as a master chef, they might not be able to do that as well anymore. And it's worth noting that Elf society is Chaotic Good as a whole. An entirely Chaotic society is difficult to imagine, but they don't feel the pressure to succeed, to contribute, or struggle with the logistics of survival like we do IRL.

They don't really buckle down and start focusing on anything related to adventuring until like 100 or so, maybe even later. So that same time frame as the human is accounting for background, 5-10 years, is about what an adult is looking at. And due to skill atrophy, they don't necessarily retain any proficiency with the things they did for the first 80-90 years of adulthood (or they weren't things that pertained to fantasy adventuring). Maybe spending 15 years smoking herbs with the local druid Grove dulled their skills or something. Except archery and swordplay, which are apparently mandatory to keep up on.

An elf raised among humans would probably have a lower starting age. My last elf PC was only 80, and he was a Monk with the Criminal background. He was raised in human society, became part of the local Thieves Guild, and when he got caught, his parents used their influence to send him to a monastery for a few decades, rather than go to prison. So he's still super young for an elf.


Some races, like Kobolds, make it worse. Kobolds reach adulthood at 6.

So a 6-year old Kobold, an 18-year old human, and a 100-year old elf all have the same breathe of life experiences, despite a dramatic difference in years lived.

Gnolls hit adulthood at 2!

[RSP]

Maybe, but if the primary advancement is through those concentrated weeks of adventuring, maybe nobody gets past level 1 without doing those adventures. They don't let their elven 'kids' out until they are 'adults.'

Remember that NPCs don't typically have 'class levels.' You could represent elves being that much more learned by having more archmagi and fewer apprentice wizards in their societies, though.

Certainly PC advancement is much faster than npc advancement. But it’s still an issue of “for 18 years prior to adventuring I learned 4 skills” being equal to “for 120 years prior to adventuring I learned 4 skills”.



Elves place almost no pressure at all on their young adults to be productive members of society. They spend decades studying art, music, sandwiches, whatever. This is a time for them to "find themselves". And, like has been mentioned, skills atrophy. So even if they spent 20 years as a master chef, they might not be able to do that as well anymore. And it's worth noting that Elf society is Chaotic Good as a whole. An entirely Chaotic society is difficult to imagine, but they don't feel the pressure to succeed, to contribute, or struggle with the logistics of survival like we do IRL.

They don't really buckle down and start focusing on anything related to adventuring until like 100 or so, maybe even later. So that same time frame as the human is accounting for background, 5-10 years, is about what an adult is looking at. And due to skill atrophy, they don't necessarily retain any proficiency with the things they did for the first 80-90 years of adulthood (or they weren't things that pertained to fantasy adventuring). Maybe spending 15 years smoking herbs with the local druid Grove dulled their skills or something. Except archery and swordplay, which are apparently mandatory to keep up on.

An elf raised among humans would probably have a lower starting age.

Skills don’t atrophy like muscle do though, for starters.

And real life humans very much learn a ton, even when finding themselves and not really buckling down during the teens and young adulthood.

Even one just living life for experiences is going to pick up a ton of knowledge over 100 years or so.

And CG has nothing to do with it.

[Tanarii]

A hundred year adventuring elf in 5e is one that's been adventuring on and off for 80 or so years since they hit physical maturity, and is settled down / retired and raising a family or whatever, and considered an adult. Their level depends on what the player has done at the table in that time. If the player is starting them as a level 1 PC, they've done non-adventuring things the same as a player choosing to start with a 30+ year old human.

Ditto for a 50 year old dwarf or 40 year old Gnome. The PHB is telling you what age these Demi-human societies consider a responsible adult who has but all their adventuring nonsense behind them, not the age level 1 PCs start at. They all start about 20ish, assuming the player doesn't want them to have done non-adventuring stuff for a chunk of life after maturity and start older. With no inherent mechanical benefit from doing so, although as always the DM can consider background/history if a non-adventuring thing ever comes up, either as an automatic success of some kind of ability check.

[RedMage125]

Skills don’t atrophy like muscle do though, for starters.

And real life humans very much learn a ton, even when finding themselves and not really buckling down during the teens and young adulthood.

Even one just living life for experiences is going to pick up a ton of knowledge over 100 years or so.

And CG has nothing to do with it.

Skills absolutely do atrophy. I played basketball and baseball in Middle School, I do not have the skills now that I did then. My wife played Roller Derby in her late 20s/early 30s. After only 4 years of not skating, she had trouble, not just with things related to physical endurance, but even some of the actual skills.
And lest this all seem about physical conditioning...I also no longer have the skills to make balloon animals, or even to draw as well as I used to. As a Navy Aciation Electrician, I used to solder all the time.. until I didn't for 8 years, and yes...my skills were not as good as they used to be.

Skill ABSOLUTELY atrophy. Especially with decades or longer of not using them.

No one's saying that the elves "aren't learning anything" during this period. But they also aren't "fighting in war" the while time, either. Or necessarily doing any of the things that would be reflected by proficiency as a D&D character.

And as for "knowledge picked up over 100 years"...who's to say it was relevant knowledge? It's difficult for us to imagine the priority span of the people who have a life expectancy measured in centuries. Earlier editions gave examples that an elf might spend 2 years on one painting. Or making one single sword. Their pace of moving through life, and even learning new things, is DRASTICALLY different.

And I think CG is related here. Their whole society is, as a whole, dedicated to a very laissez-faire attitude. Individuality and freedom of expression are valued and validated on a level we can't actually envision enacting in real life.

[RSP]

Skills absolutely do atrophy. I played basketball and baseball in Middle School, I do not have the skills now that I did then. My wife played Roller Derby in her late 20s/early 30s. After only 4 years of not skating, she had trouble, not just with things related to physical endurance, but even some of the actual skills.
And lest this all seem about physical conditioning...I also no longer have the skills to make balloon animals, or even to draw as well as I used to. As a Navy Aciation Electrician, I used to solder all the time.. until I didn't for 8 years, and yes...my skills were not as good as they used to be.

Skill ABSOLUTELY atrophy. Especially with decades or longer of not using them.

Ever hear the saying “it’s like riding a bike”? You don’t just forget stuff like you claim.

I’ve never roller derbyied before: I’m sure your wife is better than me at it, even without having done it for a period of time.

Pretending “having not done it for awhile” = “never known about it”, is just ridiculous.



No one's saying that the elves "aren't learning anything" during this period. But they also aren't "fighting in war" the while time, either. Or necessarily doing any of the things that would be reflected by proficiency as a D&D character.

And as for "knowledge picked up over 100 years"...who's to say it was relevant knowledge? It's difficult for us to imagine the priority span of the people who have a life expectancy measured in centuries. Earlier editions gave examples that an elf might spend 2 years on one painting. Or making one single sword. Their pace of moving through life, and even learning new things, is DRASTICALLY different.

The game sessions determine what’s relevant. Being a farmer for 100+ years should mean you know a ton about Nature and Survival. And that’s not factoring in just naturally being around and interacting with people for decades influencing how well social skills are; or the fact that history is now your lifetime.



And I think CG is related here. Their whole society is, as a whole, dedicated to a very laissez-faire attitude. Individuality and freedom of expression are valued and validated on a level we can't actually envision enacting in real life.

“Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect.”

That’s not going to mean “oh they can’t learn stuff”.

Do CG characters level slower in your campaigns or something?

[JNAProductions]

Ever hear the saying “it’s like riding a bike”? You don’t just forget stuff like you claim.

I’ve never roller derbyied before: I’m sure your wife is better than me at it, even without having done it for a period of time.

Pretending “having not done it for awhile” = “never known about it”, is just ridiculous.


The game sessions determine what’s relevant. Being a farmer for 100+ years should mean you know a ton about Nature and Survival. And that’s not factoring in just naturally being around and interacting with people for decades influencing how well social skills are; or the fact that history is now your lifetime.


“Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect.”

That’s not going to mean “oh they can’t learn stuff”.

Do CG characters level slower in your campaigns or something?

Your skills might not TOTALLY atrophy, but atrophy they do-and that's on a human scale.
If you haven't shot hoops/rode a bike/studied physics in eight years, you're gonna be very out of practice. How much does that get amplified if, instead of eight years, it's been eighty years?

And being a farmer for 100 years means you should know a crapload about your farm and general farming practices.
Would that let you forage better, like Survival does? I don't see why-you were a farmer, and that's basically the OPPOSITE of foraging. Would it let you track better? Maybe, if you tended to farm animals who escaped all the time, but you would probably just invest in better fences.
Would that let you know about weather and natural cycles? Probably! As well as any local animals and plants. But animals from a continent away, not so much.

[RedMage125]

Ever hear the saying “it’s like riding a bike”? You don’t just forget stuff like you claim.

I’ve never roller derbyied before: I’m sure your wife is better than me at it, even without having done it for a period of time.

Pretending “having not done it for awhile” = “never known about it”, is just ridiculous.
Pretending "skills atrophy and degrade over time" = "the person has never known about it" is even more ridiculous.

And if that's the only way to defend your point, then your point may not be worth defending.




The game sessions determine what’s relevant. Being a farmer for 100+ years should mean you know a ton about Nature and Survival. And that’s not factoring in just naturally being around and interacting with people for decades influencing how well social skills are; or the fact that history is now your lifetime.
The point is that what the elf was doing during that century may not be relevant to their later adventuring career. Looking back, I was quite explicit about this, and it's disingenuous to pretend I said what you've responded to.




“Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect.”

That’s not going to mean “oh they can’t learn stuff”.

Do CG characters level slower in your campaigns or something?

Do you only construct false points that you pretend I've made in order to respond in a manner that allows you to "disprove" them? Because no one said CG means "they can't learn stuff".

The point was that, their society, unlike ours, doesn't necessarily place any emphasis on the young doing anything productive or even building towards anything that will result in a productive career or future. The "laissez-faire" attitude was the relevant part. That's been mentioned in several books that detail elven society, across multiple editions. In 2e and 3e, elves pursue many different things, never being expected to focus on any one. In 5e, the first century of a young elf's life is focused on the fact that their ties to their past lives are stronger in childhood/adolescence, and it is a mark of the onset of adulthood that those connections grow weaker, and, being now of a more individual consciousness, they start to engage with the world. So, once again, like ibsaid initially, the amount of time actually spent doing whatever is relevant to the PC's Background is only 5-10 years, much like a human PC.

And your snarky comment about "CG characters leveling slower" in my campaign is as unwarranted and unwelcome as it is completely non-sequitur.

[Slipjig]

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact. We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

It's a catchy slogan, but it's an expression of solidarity, not a description. If you ask one of those old-timers down at the VFW to field strip an M60 or explain Battle Drill 1A to you, most of them would struggle.

There's also the fact that once an elf becomes an adventurer, their life expectancy drops dramatically (and the longer-lived a race, the more their life expectancy drops when they take up a dangerous profession). Even if we estimate that adventurers only have a 5% chance of permanently dying in a given year of active adventuring (and I would say that's VERY generous odds), 65% of them will be dead by the 20-year mark. After 100 years of adventuring, we're talking 99.5% mortality. Adventuring just isn't going to be a long-term thing for elves (or at least not the way they think of "long-term").

[JackPhoenix]

Sure? What does that have to do with what I was responding to? The term used was “perfectly”. Are you saying humans not doing it perfectly is better than doing it perfectly???

Not sure where you’re going with this.

Alright, just for you: Just because you can "perfectly" repeat what someone else did before doesn't mean that what you're repeating is the best possible way of doing things. Yeah, yeah, it's great you're casting Fireball exactly the same way archmage Whatshisname did, but that was 2000 years ago, we have much more advanced techniques now.

[RSP]

Your skills might not TOTALLY atrophy, but atrophy they do-and that's on a human scale.
If you haven't shot hoops/rode a bike/studied physics in eight years, you're gonna be very out of practice. How much does that get amplified if, instead of eight years, it's been eighty years?


My ability to ride a bike has never gone away despite not riding for at least a decade.

You stopped playing basketball? I bet you can still coach it, explain the rules, plays, theories behind it. Same with any sport. I hadn’t skied for probably 15 years and was fine going back out and doing black diamond stuff.

There’s literally tons of stuff that I stopped doing for very long periods of time and still remember them.

Again, stopping doing something does not equal you don’t know about it.

This is a ridiculous claim you’re making.

If you studied engineering in college for 4 years, and then didn’t become an engineer but went into a different field, you still know a crap ton of stuff about engineering.



The point is that what the elf was doing during that century may not be relevant to their later adventuring career.

And it very well might be, that’s what the campaign decides, but deciding those learned things don’t exist prevents them from ever being relevant.



And your snarky comment about "CG characters leveling slower" in my campaign is as unwarranted and unwelcome as it is completely non-sequitur.

No, stating alignment dictates how fast you learn is ridiculous.


Alright, just for you: Just because you can "perfectly" repeat what someone else did before doesn't mean that what you're repeating is the best possible way of doing things. Yeah, yeah, it's great you're casting Fireball exactly the same way archmage Whatshisname did, but that was 2000 years ago, we have much more advanced techniques now.

Huh? So there’s something better than doing something “perfectly”? And it’s achieved by NOT learning how to do something correctly? That makes zero sense.

[Segev]

My ability to ride a bike has never gone away despite not riding for at least a decade.

You stopped playing basketball? I bet you can still coach it, explain the rules, plays, theories behind it. Same with any sport. I hadn’t skied for probably 15 years and was fine going back out and doing black diamond stuff.

There’s literally tons of stuff that I stopped doing for very long periods of time and still remember them.

Again, stopping doing something does not equal you don’t know about it.

This is a ridiculous claim you’re making.

If you studied engineering in college for 4 years, and then didn’t become an engineer but went into a different field, you still know a crap ton of stuff about engineering.



And it very well might be, that’s what the campaign decides, but deciding those learned things don’t exist prevents them from ever being relevant.



No, stating alignment dictates how fast you learn is ridiculous.



Huh? So there’s something better than doing something “perfectly”? And it’s achieved by NOT learning how to do something correctly? That makes zero sense.

Due to the lack of granularity in 5e, those things he WAS good at years and years ago might represent what he's retaining by his raw stat bonus. Yes, that'd be there even without that history, but that history is one way to explain it.

[JNAProductions]

Huh? So there’s something better than doing something “perfectly”? And it’s achieved by NOT learning how to do something correctly? That makes zero sense.

To try to explain this better, imagine if you follow a cake recipe PERFECTLY. Every single step, you follow to a T, checking to make sure it all goes how the recipe says it should.
Now, what if this cake recipe calls for salt instead of sugar? You still follow the recipe perfectly-but your cake is gonna be AWFUL.

That's what the example was about-your motions are perfect to the way you learned them, but that doesn't mean what you learned is the best way to do something, only that you mastered that way.

[Rukelnikov]

Isn't it easier to admit that it doesn't make sense instead of trying to bend yourselves backwards jumping hoops to make explanations for why it does?

[Rukelnikov]

Easier than talking to certain people on this forum? Sure. That doesn't make it true.

It does, if you need an excuse for why every single PC is a 100 yo and has the smae experience as a 20 yo one, then its better to accept it doesn't make sense and we just roll with it because its a game.

[RedMage125]

My ability to ride a bike has never gone away despite not riding for at least a decade.

You stopped playing basketball? I bet you can still coach it, explain the rules, plays, theories behind it. Same with any sport. I hadn’t skied for probably 15 years and was fine going back out and doing black diamond stuff.

There’s literally tons of stuff that I stopped doing for very long periods of time and still remember them.

Again, stopping doing something does not equal you don’t know about it.

This is a ridiculous claim you’re making.

If you studied engineering in college for 4 years, and then didn’t become an engineer but went into a different field, you still know a crap ton of stuff about engineering.

No...YOU are the only one making that claim. That isn't what he said. He was talking about his actual, personal skill at basketball, not "still remembering the theories about it".

Hmmm...I only there was a term for when someone blatantly misrepresents your argument, and then knocks down and ridicules that absurd facsimile, as it were made of a straw-like substance.



And it very well might be, that’s what the campaign decides, but deciding those learned things don’t exist prevents them from ever being relevant.
If a given elf spent 10 years doing oil painting, that doesn't translate to any PC skills in the PHB.
Or, I you want to keep it 5e...a century spent re-living past life memories, that the elf then LOSES around the 100 year mark...why would he have extra skills?

If anything, the 5e model perfectly answers all of your issues. Even the ones where you twist what people are saying into something you can actually attack more easily.




No, stating alignment dictates how fast you learn is ridiculous.
And I agree, because I never said that. You would prefer that I did, because that's an absurd statement that's easy to argue against. You even quoted me saying that you drawing that connection was non-sequitur.

That means it was out of the blue and makes no sense.

Seriously, you haven't ACTUALLY responded to anything anyone was ACTUALLY saying.

[RSP]

Due to the lack of granularity in 5e, those things he WAS good at years and years ago might represent what he's retaining by his raw stat bonus. Yes, that'd be there even without that history, but that history is one way to explain it.

So then 5e elves should have higher stat bonuses is the answer?


To try to explain this better, imagine if you follow a cake recipe PERFECTLY. Every single step, you follow to a T, checking to make sure it all goes how the recipe says it should.
Now, what if this cake recipe calls for salt instead of sugar? You still follow the recipe perfectly-but your cake is gonna be AWFUL.

That's what the example was about-your motions are perfect to the way you learned them, but that doesn't mean what you learned is the best way to do something, only that you mastered that way.

So your answer is “elves do everything wrong for 700 years? That doesn’t make sense. You’re straining any sort of credulity saying “Humans naturally do everything right without experience, while elves waste their 700 year lifetime trying to do stuff perfectly but following the wrong instructions.”

I’m sure that explanation just doesn’t work. You’re saying Elves are just incompetent for hundreds of years.


No...YOU are the only one making that claim. That isn't what he said. He was talking about his actual, personal skill at basketball, not "still remembering the theories about it".

Who is “he”? I’m referring to your posts. Astral life humans age, yes, their bodies change and lose muscle, dexterity, etc. but that’s not a thing in 5e, nor is it a thing for 5e elves. You’re conflating things.

As you admit, the knowledge stays, regardless of physical deterioration. So stop claiming it doesn’t.



If a given elf spent 10 years doing oil painting, that doesn't translate to any PC skills in the PHB.
Or, I you want to keep it 5e...a century spent re-living past life memories, that the elf then LOSES around the 100 year mark...why would he have extra skills?

Thank you for proving my point: Painter’s Supplies is a Tool Proficiency, right there in the PHB. Obviously the designers of the game thought it appropriate to add that in.

Please, keep the posts proving my point coming.

And that only accounts for one activity over 10 years. What other skills should they have for the other +70…?


It does, if you need an excuse for why every single PC is a 100 yo and has the smae experience as a 20 yo one, then its better to accept it doesn't make sense and we just roll with it because its a game.

You would think it easy to say “yeah, spending 18 years learning and experiencing life and the world is less than spending 100+ years learning and experiencing life and the world.

____________

Let me add to this: a 18 year old Human, has an average life, going to school for 16 years, getting whatever a general education is in their society. They then join an army and have the Soldier background for two years and at 18 become a level 1 PC.

A 100 year old Elf has an average life, going to school for 20 years, getting whatever a general education is in their society. They then join an army and have the Soldier background for 80 years and at 100 become a level 1 PC.

So there’s no difference in 4 extra years of schooling (the difference in real life going to college vs ending education at high school), and 78 years working as a Soldier? That extra time means nothing? Going to college means nothing to all of you?

This position doesn’t make sense that 18 of growing equals 100 years equals 2 years (if that was the accurate adulthood posted earlier).

Those numbers and years have meaning.

____

And I don’t know if it’s strictly a Tolkien elf thing, but 5e states Humans sleep for 8 hours a day. Elves, don’t sleep but Trance for 4 hours. Even if you want to take away what’s gained by 4 hours of meditation, that’s still 25% more awake/learning/experiencing life time for Elves over Humans (and others).

Regardless of years, that’s 25% more of doing whatever is making them what they are.

Again, feel free to say things like “Elf society only teaches for 2 hours a day” but that makes less sense given they have so much extra time.

It’s much more likely that society says “let’s learn/train for all 20 hours, then you can spend your 4 hour Trance contemplating what you’ve learned today”.

Not to mention issues the “2 hour workday” would bring in a campaign: do elves roll Con checks for exhaustion after adventuring for more than 2 hours, due to that being the extent they’ve ever had to exert themselves?

[RedMage125]

Who is “he”? I’m referring to your posts. Astral life humans age, yes, their bodies change and lose muscle, dexterity, etc. but that’s not a thing in 5e, nor is it a thing for 5e elves. You’re conflating things.
No, that was JNAProductions. I did originally bring up basketball, but that statement of yours that I quoted was your reply to him.

And it's not just physical deterioration. If I played I middle school, and then never again for 10 years, then even at 24, in my physical prime, my skills would have deteriorated.

You are blatantly incorrect, and that's why you only attack these flimsy Straw Men you construct of other's arguments. Because you know you're wrong, and at this point, I'm starting to think you're only trolling.



As you admit, the knowledge stays, regardless of physical deterioration. So stop claiming it doesn’t.
No one claimed it doesn't. That's your Straw Man. But skill is about more than knowledge.




Thank you for proving my point: Painter’s Supplies is a Tool Proficiency, right there in the PHB. Obviously the designers of the game thought it appropriate to add that in.

Please, keep the posts proving my point coming.
2 things. Most importantly, you declined to address the meat of even that part of my post that you quoted. Which is that 5e elves spend their first century mostly just reliving their past lives, and around the 100 year mark, they start to LOSE those memories and connections, and don't even START to interact with the world around them.

The second thing is that this is another example of you failing to respond to the thrust of what's been said, and just pretend something else was said so you can tear that down.

Painting is about more than remembering techniques. Even if one was an avid painter, after decades of not doing it, one's skill would deteriorate. Ask any artist. You need to keep in practice. After DECADES of not painting, yes, one would likely no longer have proficiency in Painter’s Supplies.

Which only proves OUR point (the actual point, not the pathetic Straw Man you keep constructing), and not yours.



And that only accounts for one activity over 10 years. What other skills should they have for the other +70…?
Again. The very part of my post that you quoted addresses the fact that young elves LOSE those memories around the 100 year mark.

[Segev]

So then 5e elves should have higher stat bonuses is the answer?

Just as hp is an amalgam of luck, stamina, meat, and possibly even magic, stats can be an amalgam of talent, experience, and other things.

I offer a way to justify it. If you're happy to just shrug and ignore its sense (or lack thereof), then you don't need that. If you are not content and you cannot accept any offered justifications, you'll have to come up with your own, or change things.

[RSP]

Just as hp is an amalgam of luck, stamina, meat, and possibly even magic, stats can be an amalgam of talent, experience, and other things.

I offer a way to justify it. If you're happy to just shrug and ignore its sense (or lack thereof), then you don't need that. If you are not content and you cannot accept any offered justifications, you'll have to come up with your own, or change things.

And if someone had a higher amount of that amalgam, then the corresponding stat should be higher, no?

You’re saying that stats offer a way to account for the 100+ years of being an elf. If we’re using that logic, then Humans shouldn’t have the same stats as an 100+ year old elf. Likewise, a 2 year old Kobold should have lower stats than the human, no?

Isn’t that the logical conclusion to “use stats to show what a character knows from an extra 80+ years of living”? That those that have lived longer therefore should have higher stats?

[RedMage125]

And if someone had a higher amount of that amalgam, then the corresponding stat should be higher, no?

You’re saying that stats offer a way to account for the 100+ years of being an elf. If we’re using that logic, then Humans shouldn’t have the same stats as an 100+ year old elf. Likewise, a 2 year old Kobold should have lower stats than the human, no?

Isn’t that the logical conclusion to “use stats to show what a character knows from an extra 80+ years of living”? That those that have lived longer therefore should have higher stats?

No, that's extrapolating from what Segev said to an absurd extreme. He said the existing stats can be a WAY to show what the effect of one's experiences have on the present self.

That is all. Elves get +2 to one stat and +1 to another. Humans are either only +1 to all stats, or +1 to two, depending on which variant is used. So, either way, there's at least one stat that their bonus is higher. This can be a narrative way to explain that.

And the system is flexible enough to allow any individual to decide how or why their stats are the way they are. A kobold's stats may be what they are because he learns quick and is adaptable. A dwarf's might be because he's just naturally tough or hardy. And an elf's might be due to their decades of experiences. It doesn't need to be some concrete "this factor is only given mechanical voice in this one way, and it's true across all variable elements", and NO ONE HAS BEEN SAYING IT HAS. You are the only one drawing these "appeal to absurdity" extremes to denigrate others' ideas.

Like Segev said, this is a plausible conclusion that CAN make it work. If that doesn't work for you, find something else yourself. It's exceptionally lazy to just sit there and demand others solve YOUR problem, while all you do is misrepresent what they say so you can crap all over it. Especially when you do so in a way that gives the perception that you're trying to make those ideas sound stupid, like it makes you feel better about yourself.

[Bohandas]

Your skills might not TOTALLY atrophy, but atrophy they do-and that's on a human scale.
If you haven't shot hoops/rode a bike/studied physics in eight years, you're gonna be very out of practice. How much does that get amplified if, instead of eight years, it's been eighty years?

That's a valid point, but yet possibly not as strong a point as it appears at first glance because when we consider a human attempting those things after 80 years they're going to be diminished regardless of practice due to enfeeblement and possibly senility. So we need to be really careful when we're imagining this scenario that we don;t conflate things

[JNAProductions]

That's a valid point, but yet possibly not as strong a point as it appears at first glance because when we consider a human attempting those things after 80 years they're going to be diminished regardless of practice due to enfeeblement and possibly senility. So we need to be really careful when we're imagining this scenario that we don;t conflate things

The point isn't "They're gonna be old and decrepit when they attempt it again," the point is "They've had 80 years to get rusty."

[RSP]

The point isn't "They're gonna be old and decrepit when they attempt it again," the point is "They've had 80 years to get rusty."

The proficiency system already bakes in “rusty” though.

For instance, here’s Arcana, from the PHB:

“ Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.”

So the system already accounts for “rusty”. If you were a farmer for 10 years, what do you recall about nature? Make a Nature check. You were a painter for 10 years? What do you recall about this painting on so-and-so’s wall? Make either a History or Painter’s Supplies check.

This is already how proficiencies work in 5e.

Saying “well skills MUST deminish over [whatever unsupported claim/number of years you chose]” is removing how the skill system works in 5e.

Deciding extra decades spent living is meaningless, or worse, jumping through hoops trying to create in-world reasons which then have further impacts on the in-game world; isn’t needed. Just admit “living 80+ more years with nothing to show for it is weird.” Saying “living two years is an equal amount of experienced gained to living 120 years, is weird.”

No amount of hoops will make those statements not true or make it logical that 2 years of experiencing life is equal to 120 years.

It’s a flaw in the fiction.

[Slipjig]

So then 5e elves should have higher stat bonuses is the answer?

And I don’t know if it’s strictly a Tolkien elf thing, but 5e states Humans sleep for 8 hours a day. Elves, don’t sleep but Trance for 4 hours. Even if you want to take away what’s gained by 4 hours of meditation, that’s still 25% more awake/learning/experiencing life time for Elves over Humans (and others).

Regardless of years, that’s 25% more of doing whatever is making them what they are.

Again, feel free to say things like “Elf society only teaches for 2 hours a day” but that makes less sense given they have so much extra time.

It’s much more likely that society says “let’s learn/train for all 20 hours, then you can spend your 4 hour Trance contemplating what you’ve learned today”.

Except that Elves still need 8 hours for a long rest, so the rules REQUIRE that they faff around being unproductive for four hours every day. That seems pretty consistent with a society where they take 20 years to get through the equivalent of human high school, and 80 years to complete an apprenticeship that Humans do in five.

Also, spending a century as a soldier doesn't automatically mean massive amounts of XP. You learn a lot during the Elven equivalent of boot camp. But after that, the learning curve flattens out to almost zero once the soldier is in garrison and spending most of his time peeling potatoes and standing (uneventful) guard duty. If he's got a century of *active warfare*, we're back to the fact that the survival rate for a full century of warfare will be close to zero unless Elves are simply inherently superior to the other races (LotR elves actually ARE canonically inherently superior to the other races, D&D elves aren't). Sure, the very few elves who DO survive a century of warfare will be high level, but that's not really a Level 1 concept.

But if you want to rule that all Elves are minimum Level 10 when they reach adulthood or get an extra +5 Proficiency Bonus or whatever, hey, feel free to make up your own house rules.

-edit-

Also, "learning to ride a bike" is a terrible example of a skill. It's scary for small children (and their watching parents), but it's mostly just keeping your balance, which is something you practice every day just by walking. Skiing is a LITTLE more complex, but unless you are doing crazy acrobatic stuff it's still 90% balance.

[JackPhoenix]

As you admit, the knowledge stays, regardless of physical deterioration. So stop claiming it doesn’t.

It absolutely doesn't. My mother had to learn Russian when she was studying, like everyone here did back then, and had to be fluent to get a degree. She even visited and spent some time in Soviet Union. After she didn't need it for 35+ years since we've got rid of our Soviet overlords, she can't string a sentence together, or even read cirilllic alphabet. She can maybe remember few phrases and words, and can kinda understand spoken text (but so can I, to a degree, on account of similarities between slavic languages, and general cultural osmosis from media), so she's slightly better off than me who never learned, but nobody would call her proficient.
Same with me. I've learned programming for 3 years in school, and could write simple programs. Not doing anything programming-related for over 10 years means I'd have to start again from scratch if I wanted to do it again. Maybe I'd pick it up faster than someone who never learned it, but that's about it. I guess I could maybe understand a thing or two looking at a piece of a program?
An elf could easily learn and then forget both multiple times before reaching 100 years of age.

It's telling your big counterpoints are skills anyone can pick in few hours at most and wouldn't even require proficiency in D&D.


Saying “well skills MUST deminish over [whatever unsupported claim/number of years you chose]” is removing how the skill system works in 5e.

You mean 5e doesn't simulate reality (and doesn't even attempt to) or accounts for aging? [insert surprised pikachu face]
I'd like to point out that 100 years old human has the exact same physical stats (or possibly better, if he's a PC and gained few ASI in between) he had when he was 20.

[Slipjig]

Another good example of losing knowledge is academic subjects. When I finished AP US History 25+ years ago, I could rattle off relevant details about the administration of every US President. Now I probably couldn't even name them all, let alone in the correct order.

Or when I was in Afghanistan 10 years ago, I spoke moderately good Farsi because I was using it on a daily basis. After a decade of not using it, I'd struggle even get through the basic social niceties.

[RSP]

Except that Elves still need 8 hours for a long rest, so the rules REQUIRE that they faff around being unproductive for four hours every day.

Incorrect. Here’s the rule:

“Trance. Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they
meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.”

Elves gain the same benefit from 4 hours of Trance as humans do from 8 hours of sleep. If a human sleeps for 8 hours they get a long rest. If an elf traces for 4 hours, they get a long rest.

SAC for additional clarity:

“Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as de-scribed in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed.”

[JNAProductions]

Okay, that’s one point that they were wrong on.
Care to address any other point?

[RSP]

It's telling your big counterpoints are skills anyone can pick in few hours at most and wouldn't even require proficiency in D&D.

Incorrect. Athletics, for one, covers jumping, swimming and climbing.

Any tool proficiency. Any Knowledge proficiency works that way. Acrobatics (taking out age specific degeneration), Slight of Hand, Stealth, Investigstion, Animal Handling, Medicine (in terms of stabilizing a companion, the diagnosing diseases may be different depending on mutations and whatnot), Perception and Survival. All those stick with you.

Likewise the social skills, but you’d need to be a recluse to even argue that they’re not being used.



You mean 5e doesn't simulate reality (and doesn't even attempt to) or accounts for aging? [insert surprised pikachu face]
I'd like to point out that 100 years old human has the exact same physical stats (or possibly better, if he's a PC and gained few ASI in between) he had when he was 20.

Great point for what I’m saying! You used Language as an argument, but in 5e it doesn’t matter: you just know the language.

And Elves (nor any other race) don’t lose languages, right? So why should they lose skills?

Moreover, you said it yourself: once you know it, you will recall stuff later if you try. That’s still knowing it (you can’t recall it if you don’t know it).

I mean, then there’s this:

“Training
You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. Your DM might allow additional training options. First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you. The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required.
The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool.”

So a 100 year old elf, should know every tool, and Language at least…lot of 250 day stints in there (116 stints, which should cover it).


Okay, that’s one point that they were wrong on.
Care to address any other point?

Care to admit that Elves, then, should have at least 25% more skill to show for that time? (Probably more than 25% as spending 4 hours meditating and reflecting on what you learned helps learning).

I do try to get to everything but I’m only one person with stuff to do outside this forum. Please be patient.

And the long rest error showed error on their entire point as they used it as the reason elves must “faff around” (I’m assuming this is wasting time). So them being wrong about it undermined their entire point.


Another good example of losing knowledge is academic subjects. When I finished AP US History 25+ years ago, I could rattle off relevant details about the administration of every US President. Now I probably couldn't even name them all, let alone in the correct order.

Or when I was in Afghanistan 10 years ago, I spoke moderately good Farsi because I was using it on a daily basis. After a decade of not using it, I'd struggle even get through the basic social niceties.

All things, as you say, that you could possibly recall. Which is exactly how the 5e skills work. Just because you have proficiency in History DOES NOT mean you know everything that ever happened (or even everything you ever learned)

You still roll to see what you recall.

You’re arguing my point for me by showing this is already how 5e proficiency works:

“History. Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.”

Basically exactly what your describing from your academic experiences.

But I’ll just reiterate Jack’s point from above: 5e doesn’t account for anyone LOSING skills, at any point in their lifetime. So why attribute that solely to elves (and much less Elves who are only 100 years old)?

Here’s their point:



I'd like to point out that 100 years old human has the exact same physical stats (or possibly better, if he's a PC and gained few ASI in between) he had when he was 20.

So physical and mental deterioration isn’t even a thing in 5e; why even worry about it?

But learning new stuff is! So elves should, therefore, have plenty to show for their 80+ extra years of existence and life experiences.

[Segev]

Should dwarves and halflings also have more skills or the like?

[RSP]

Should dwarves and halflings also have more skills or the like?

Dwarves face similar issues to elves, as they’re not considered adults until 50 (but this thread was specifically about Elves and the Tolkien elements brought to 5e, so I’ve not gone there).

Halflings live longer, but are adult at the same rate as humans.

However, as stated a couple times above, this isn’t an argument about changing how PCs are made; it’s pointing out the effect of Tolkien lore on 5e, which is “it makes no sense that creatures with 100+ years of life experience, are as experienced as 20 year olds”. And so to have an Elf character that makes sense in-story, the player needs to account for WHY this elf only has about 20 years of life experience, at 120 years of age or whatever.

If you wanted to make the races reflect their longer lives in terms of skill, you’d have to make cuts to current abilities to keep balance, I imagine.

Though if you’re just looking for a short cut that kind of does it, the new Trance rules are there, in that the Elf can meditate for 4 hours and recall their proficiency. This adds in a “compartmentalized skills” ability to Elves that isn’t in the 5e PHB, but it’s something.

But again, this thread (as I understand it) isn’t about changing PC creation, it’s about the effect of Tolkien elves on 5e.

[Sorinth]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

Learning takes effort.

[RedMage125]

So physical and mental deterioration isn’t even a thing in 5e; why even worry about it?

But learning new stuff is! So elves should, therefore, have plenty to show for their 80+ extra years of existence and life experiences.

Oh, so you just want to focus on 5e?

Then how about you address that, according to MToF, elves spend their first decade or two only experiencing memories from past lives, not their current one. And their culture encourages them to explore these memories and talk with their peers about them.

Sometime after they have their first Trance that they experience memories of their waking life, they are considered adolescent. And around the 1st century mark, they stop having those past life memories entirely, becoming an adult, and start to "strive to engage with the world" (page 38). The end of this section clarified that it is during adulthood that elves "become accomplished in many endeavors", and talks about elves having skills like being a vintner, or creating wood carvings.

So...apparently, they don't even start accumulating any actual skills or proficiencies until after the 100 year mark. Which, like I have been saying, is giving them about the same amount of time as a human spent on whatever occupation or set of skills becomes their background and class.

[RSP]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

Learning takes effort.

Indeed learning takes effort. But there is certainly more opportunity to learn if you have 20 more years to do so.

Again, the position I’ve stated is “due to the extra 80+ years, the player is forced into a backstory that explains why the PC isn’t more experienced/skilled etc.

Yes, you can come up with backstories that explain why a 120 year old is not more experienced than a 20 year old; such as they were in a magical coma for 100 years; but that being required, is part of the issue from importing Tolkien elves to D&D.

[Sorinth]

Indeed learning takes effort. But there is certainly more opportunity to learn if you have 20 more years to do so.

Again, the position I’ve stated is “due to the extra 80+ years, the player is forced into a backstory that explains why the PC isn’t more experienced/skilled etc.

Yes, you can come up with backstories that explain why a 120 year old is not more experienced than a 20 year old; such as they were in a magical coma for 100 years; but that being required, is part of the issue from importing Tolkien elves to D&D.

But judging from the real world the vast majority of people don't use that opportunity. Elves probably have even less incentive to buckle down and put in that work because they have so much time.

[Bohandas]

Learning takes effort.

Unless you have Scholar's touch prepared

[RSP]

Then how about you address that, according to MToF, elves spend their first decade or two only experiencing memories from past lives, not their current one. And their culture encourages them to explore these memories and talk with their peers about them.

MToF offers one possible, partial explanation, of why elves might be less experienced than what you’d expect from a 100 year old creature, if you have it and so choose to use that explanation? Are players not allowed to play 20 year old elves? 50 year olds? Do they not have any skills if they play an elf less than 120 years old? Does adolescence expand to cover 300 years if you choose to play a 300-year old elf?

It also, apparently doesn’t cover what you think it does. Based off what you’ve written, you’ve made a GIANT leap from “they are adolescents for 20 years” and “don’t accumulate skills until after the 100 year mark”.

You accumulate skills as an adolescent, in fact, the period from puberty to “adulthood” might be the period in our lives when we learn the most. If your argument is elves have 20 years of what Humans experience between 12-18 years old; I’d say it’s only helping my argument.

By all means, have your elven PC’s backstory be “they remember nothing until they reached 100 years old”, but it’s not disproving anything I’ve posted: you’re still having coming up with a backstory to explain why your PC is no less experienced than a 20 year old (not to mention a 2-year old), because of the reliance of Tolkien’s elves and their long lives.

And to anyone who doesn’t follow that, like anyone going by the PHB, they’re correct too!


But judging from the real world the vast majority of people don't use that opportunity. Elves probably have even less incentive to buckle down and put in that work because they have so much time.

Says who? From the PHB: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring
on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

[Sorinth]

Says who? From the PHB: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring
on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

The key being when pursuing a goal. Your proposing that they are never not pursuing a goal which I think is very unlikely.

[Slipjig]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

Learning takes effort.

We sort of covered this earlier in the thread. The learning curve on almost every profession flattens out dramatically after a few years unless you are actively seeking out new techniques. Running through a sword form 10,000 times may give you mastery of that form (and should take a few hours a day for a year). But doing that form 1,000,000 times over the course of a century isn't going to lead to much further improvement (though doing it a few times a week will keep you from losing the skill). And if you are talking about banging out horseshoes as a blacksmith, your 1,000,000th horseshoe is probably no better than your 1,000th.

Hmm, I'd never seen that SAC. I'm pretty sure the PHB errata still specifically states that Elves CANNOT complete a Long Rest in four hours (and that they can't stand watch for more than two hours in that period without voiding the Long Rest). But unless the entire party is made up of elves, it's not usually going to be relevant in-game.

[Bohandas]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill

[Sorinth]

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

[RSP]

The key being when pursuing a goal. Your proposing that they are never not pursuing a goal which I think is very unlikely.

When did I ever propose that??? I stated someone with 100+ years more life experience should have something to show for that.

I stated Elves have 4 extra hours of every day to do stuff, followed by 4 hours where they meditate on the day.

Where, in any post on this thread did I propose Elves “are never not pursuing a goal”?



Hmm, I'd never seen that SAC. I'm pretty sure the PHB errata still specifically states that Elves CANNOT complete a Long Rest in four hours (and that they can't stand watch for more than two hours in that period without voiding the Long Rest). But unless the entire party is made up of elves, it's not usually going to be relevant in-game.

I quoted the rule with the SAC. If you want to assume the quote is wrong, go for it, but it’s from the Basic Rules.


But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

If you’re a farmer for five years, you’ll run through five years of farm work, learning the day to day stuff.

If you’re a farmer for 10 years you’ll probably see one of some catastrophe or other, be it drought, storms damaging harvests, insect or disease issues.

If you’re a farmer for 100 years, you’ve seen that all multiple times, and learned from each instance.

That doesn’t even account for everything else you do including a hundred years of selling your harvest, including haggling and knowing the market, when to hold off or when to sell right away.

What books did you read over 100 years? What occurred in those 100 years that may be considered History to a 20 year old, that you lived through?

Anyone on this thread can only imagine what one could experience as a 20-year old for 100 years. Hand waiving it as “it’s probably the same as anyone living just 20 years” isn’t accurate; or anything close to having a good imagination.

[Bohandas]

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

[RSP]

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

Not to mention just everything a person will experience over that time. I’ve learned a ridiculous amount just reading the news everyday, and that isn’t anything other than maybe 10 minutes a day.

Exposure to events, even in day-to-day life, is valuable. And elves have a ton more of that than humans or kobolds.

[Sorinth]

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

But casually playing around with something doesn't sound like proficiency. Even if you are doing something for a long time doesn't mean you will become good enough to be considered D&D proficient in a skill. You can casually play around with poetry for 20 years but it doesn't mean you will become a good poet. You might be better then when you first started but even that's not a given. And given that D&D skill proficiencies are very generic instead of specific saying that because you've casually written poetry for 20 years including doing poetry readings with your friends that you should have proficiency in Performance which then is broadly applicable to all sorts of non-poetry reading type stuff.


Not to mention just everything a person will experience over that time. I’ve learned a ridiculous amount just reading the news everyday, and that isn’t anything other than maybe 10 minutes a day.

Exposure to events, even in day-to-day life, is valuable. And elves have a ton more of that than humans or kobolds.

It can be valuable sure, it doesn't automatically mean it is though. A lot of exposure/life experiences will lead someone to believe the wrong things, just look at Covid.

But more importantly you learning a lot of stuff by reading the news might give you a leg up on someone who doesn't read the news but that doesn't mean proficiency. It seems like your threshold for gaining proficiency is to be better then someone who is bad or knows nothing about the thing and I can't buy that. If the average person can't juggle at all, and I can juggle 3 balls for about 5-10s before dropping things does that mean I should be proficient in juggling? Hey I'm better then the average person that can't juggle at all right? To me the idea of being proficient in juggling means someone who can juggle 3 balls for as long as they want and has a reasonable chance at the harder juggling things.

[RSP]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

[Segev]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

Actually, the idea that they are mostly working for day-to-day survival is probably TOO realistic for most people's preferred fantasy, but could explain why elven farmers aren't learning to be masters of fifty different trades: they are spending all day farming so they don't starve!

[Bundin]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

The elfs don't really specialise or learn useful adventury skills for decades. Without organised education, and with society not expecting them to in the first 100 years (there's plenty of time after, so sure, take a gap century). Amount of practical things learned in that time is still >> 0: the skill/tool proficiencies, the above average ability scores when compared to commoners, the proficiency bonus, the level 1 class features.

Humans don't get a gap century. Maybe a gap year, but time is short so you better keep moving because you'll need to get your situation in order before mum and dad stop feeding you because they are dead. They learn the same in a much shorter time frame because society makes them.

Real life basis for the above: when it's up to society, age is but a number. During the industrial revolution, many 5(!)-12 year olds were (mostly un)skilled workers in factories, mines and the like. Small children very conveniently fit in narrow spaces/tunnels, nice! Today's slackers aren't earning until they're (on average) 20 or so, over three times the age of that productive member of society in 1812. In the UK, it took until 1819 to ban labour for the under-9. Over 9, 12 hours per day was still ok though.

Are today's chilldren and adolescents lazy bums? Definitely not all of them. Expectations changed. Can't compare by applying 1812 norms to 2024. Maybe also don't apply human sentiment to Elf youngsters :)

[Bohandas]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

Maybe PC elves are exceptionally lazy and everyone else is higher level?


The elfs don't really specialise or learn useful adventury skills for decades. Without organised education, and with society not expecting them to in the first 100 years (there's plenty of time after, so sure, take a gap century). Amount of practical things learned in that time is still >> 0: the skill/tool proficiencies, the above average ability scores when compared to commoners, the proficiency bonus, the level 1 class features.

Humans don't get a gap century. Maybe a gap year, but time is short so you better keep moving because you'll need to get your situation in order before mum and dad stop feeding you because they are dead. They learn the same in a much shorter time frame because society makes them.

Real life basis for the above: when it's up to society, age is but a number. During the industrial revolution, many 5(!)-12 year olds were (mostly un)skilled workers in factories, mines and the like. Small children very conveniently fit in narrow spaces/tunnels, nice! Today's slackers aren't earning until they're (on average) 20 or so, over three times the age of that productive member of society in 1812. In the UK, it took until 1819 to ban labour for the under-9. Over 9, 12 hours per day was still ok though.

Are today's chilldren and adolescents lazy bums? Definitely not all of them. Expectations changed. Can't compare by applying 1812 norms to 2024. Maybe also don't apply human sentiment to Elf youngsters :)

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

EDIT:
Possibly relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

[Sorinth]

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

Sure they know significantly more stuff but does that stuff actually translate into more skills? Like seriously what D&D skill proficiencies are considered standard for the average high school graduate? Like sure todays kids probably know more about Nature and History since they've taken classes on it and the 1800s kids didn't. But I wouldn't consider today's average HS student to be proficient in either. Knowing more then nothing doesn't equate to proficiency.

[Bundin]

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

EDIT:
Possibly relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

I completely agree with you.

However, my point was that one cannot compare completely different populations, like RL humans in 1812 and in 2024. They live completely different lives, in completely different environments, societies, and structures. I only mentioned this to show that one cannot usually measure completely populations against the same yardstick. To me, that's the issue with most of the discussion in this topic: dnd humans are not dnd elfs, even if they (also) live in the same cities, just like 1812 isn't 2024.

[Tanarii]

It does, if you need an excuse for why every single PC is a 100 yo and has the smae experience as a 20 yo one, then its better to accept it doesn't make sense and we just roll with it because its a game.But the relevant point here is you don't start with a 100 year old elf. You start at 20. If you do start at 100, it's one that's going to be seen as a still acting like a child that hasn't already gotten wild adventuring out of their system, not an adult ready to settle down. That could easily also mean being a social pariah.

If you start as a level 1 100 year old elf, that's the equivalent as starting as a level 1 31 year old human. Except with added social hang-ups. Yes, in that case you'll also need to explain why they got started later in life.


But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?Oof, that's too on point. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

So then 5e elves should have higher stat bonuses is the answer? The half elves get that. High elves get a cantrip regardless of class chosen.
I’m sure that explanation just doesn’t work. You’re saying Elves are just incompetent for hundreds of years. Nah, just interested in stuff that has nothing to do with adventuring.

What other skills should they have for the other +70…? Tantric sexual techniques, and elf joyoga, but since the game is not marketed "adult only" that doesn't get a proficiency slot...and where did you think that all of those half elves came from, anyway? :smallcool:


that’s still 25% more awake/learning/experiencing life time for Elves over Humans (and others).
They may spend it playing league of legends, or engaging in self-pleasure of any other sort.


It absolutely doesn't. My mother had to learn Russian when she was studying, like everyone here did back then, and had to be fluent to get a degree. She even visited and spent some time in Soviet Union. After she didn't need it for 35+ years since we've got rid of our Soviet overlords, she can't string a sentence together, or even read cirilllic alphabet. I am surprised at the Cyrillic loss. But as to language profiency loss, the Spanish and Italian I had has been lost due to a lack of use. I still have some German, because I began to learn it as a child when we lived in Germany.

Agree with your programming point. It's been so long since I wrote anything I'd need to be considered a total noob were I to try and start again. (Well, I can flow chart since I still use that skill) .

I'd like to point out that 100 years old human has the exact same physical stats (or possibly better, if he's a PC and gained few ASI in between) he had when he was 20. But most of them have been dead for a while, :smallbiggrin: since the game advises us that human life span usually goes to about 80.

Another good example of losing knowledge is academic subjects. When I finished AP US History 25+ years ago, I could rattle off relevant details about the administration of every US President. If I took the SAT's right now I'd probably embarrass myself.

Should dwarves and halflings also have more skills or the like? Dwarves do, halflings have little to no lore on talent besides burglary, throwing rocks, and farming. :smalltongue: May as well retire them from the game.

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill Half elves get the +2 prifociencies. Makes perfect sense, right?

I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time Nope. All of the time I spent playing Starcraft (which I was addicted to for a while) did not turn into something larger. It was just time spent.

If you start as a level 1 100 year old elf, that's the equivalent as starting as a level 1 31 year old human. Except with added social hang-ups. Could be some fun RP fodder there.

Yes, in that case you'll also need to explain why they got started later in life.
Played too much starcraft/minecraft/electrumcraft for too long, perhaps. And now we know that elves have basements.

[RSP]

But the relevant point here is you don't start with a 100 year old elf. You start at 20. If you do start at 100, it's one that's going to be seen as a still acting like a child that hasn't already gotten wild adventuring out of their system, not an adult ready to settle down. That could easily also mean being a social pariah.

You could start at 20, but if you want to play an “adult” as opposed to a “child” then you need to start at 100.

Should Human PCs start at 13?

[Tanarii]

You could start at 20, but if you want to play an “adult” as opposed to a “child” then you need to start at 100.

Should Human PCs start at 13?
This is wrong. An elf starting at 20 is the same as a human starting at 20. And elf starting at 100 is the same as a human starting at 31. That's the equivalent biological ages.

Which means the difference must be social views. Elf society (and dwarf and gnome) most likely think of members as "adults" when they're past the the wild excesses of initial physical maturity and are a bit older and ready to settle down. Certainly that's how it worked in older editions, especially for dwarves. The PHB doesn't explicitly call it out, but that's the reasonable explanation for why elf/dwarf/gnomes that are the biological equivalent of 20 year old humans aren't "adults", and why ones that are approximately the biological equivalent of human 30 (exact equivalent varies by race) are "adults".

If you want to play a social "adult" elf, who should be past their adventuring days and settling down, but is instead just heading out as a level 1 PC ... you need to explain why that's the case. Same as if you did it with a 30 year old human.

[RSP]

This is wrong. An elf starting at 20 is the same as a human starting at 20. And elf starting at 100 is the same as a human starting at 31. That's the equivalent biological ages.

It’s not wrong. 5e considers humans to be adults in their late teens:

“Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.”

5e considers elves to be adult around age 100:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.”

“Physical maturity” is not the same thing as adulthood. For instance, in the U.S., you aren’t considered an adult until 18, regardless of physical maturity.

These are directly taken from the 5e Basic Rules, so I find it hard to call them wrong, though, by all means, you do you.

[Tanarii]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.

If you extrapolate from physical maturity at 20 of humans to 100 year lifespan, and elf with physical maturity at 20 and 750 year lifespan, a 100 year elf is roughly the same as a physical age as a 31 year old human.

Adulthood is a social construct. Thats got nothing to do with physical age.

So yes, "Should Human PCs start at 13?" is a wrong comparison to starting with a 20 year old elf. That's the same as starting an elf at 13.

If you want to start an elf at 100, it requires figuring out why, when this elf that should be settling down after the excesses of pre-adulthood and becoming a responsible "adult", they have have instead bucked the trend and is doing the opposite, only just now embarking on what would normally be pre-adult hijinks and becoming an adventurer after 80 years of missed opportunity.

[Rukelnikov]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.

If you extrapolate from physical maturity at 20 of humans to 100 year lifespan, and elf with physical maturity at 20 and 750 year lifespan, a 100 year elf is roughly the same as a physical age as a 31 year old human.

Adulthood is a social construct. Thats got nothing to do with physical age.

So yes, "Should Human PCs start at 13?" is a wrong comparison to starting with a 20 year old elf. That's the same as starting an elf at 13.

If you want to start an elf at 100, it requires figuring out why, when this elf that should be settling down after the excesses of pre-adulthood and becoming a responsible "adult", they have have instead bucked the trend and is doing the opposite, only just now embarking on what would normally be pre-adult hijinks and becoming an adventurer after 80 years of missed opportunity.

But that's a different character though, a 20 yo elf remembers their past lives and their time in arborea, the racial stats they get don't reflect this.

[RSP]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.


No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”

Physical maturity=/=maturity

If a real-life 14 year old kid reaches physical maturity, it neither means they are a) an adult; nor b) emotionally mature, or mature in any way other than being physically mature.

Deciding to omit words from the RAW to try and make a point does not actually mean you made a valid point or are correct.

For instance, you don’t get to have a character that is resistant to everything by deciding to omit “fire” from the ability “resist fire”. Again, words have meanings.

Since the PHB uses “adulthood” as their bar for ages, playing a 20-year old elf, if you really want to extrapolate, is akin to playing a 4-year old human: they’re each 1/5th towards being an adult, per the PHB.

[Segev]

I still am fond of the notion that a looks-10-years-old-to-a-human elf is roughly in his sixties (if he's the equivalent of a fifteen-year-old human at 115). It allows concepts like the orphaned elf being adopted by humans who have a kid his apparent age or younger, who, five to ten years later, is now grown up while his adoptive brother still looks like a kid. And lets one ask the question of how well a motivated youth can force himself to develop maturity and what that looks like when he feels 'left behind' by his (adopted) sibling(s).

[Hurrashane]

Isn't it a thing in 5e that an elf isn't considered an adult by their society until they're around 100?

Like, there's nothing in that that says a 20 year old elf couldn't/wouldn't be as mature as a 20 year old human (probably doubly true if said elf was raised by humans). It's just that to elves -both- would be considered immature children.

[Tanarii]

No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”You quoted the very thing that says they are mature.


Physical maturity=/=maturity:smallconfused: We're done here.


Isn't it a thing in 5e that an elf isn't considered an adult by their society until they're around 100?

Like, there's nothing in that that says a 20 year old elf couldn't/wouldn't be as mature as a 20 year old human (probably doubly true if said elf was raised by humans). It's just that to elves -both- would be considered immature children.
Yes but it's also possible they have several different views of different ages of 'not yet an adult'. As in they might have a world for 20-100 elves that doesn't really translate into "child" but doesn't necessarily mean "adult" either.

Especially if the expected behavior of an "adult" is something like "return to the traditional homeland, settle down to start a family, and participate in the community". And the 20-100 age group expected behavior is "go out and experience the world".

[RSP]

You quoted the very thing that says they are mature.

I’m not sure why you think the writers specifying “physical maturity” means they meant “every aspect of maturity”, particularly since they’re writing about the characters in question NOT being adults.

But again, Resist everything if that’s how you read the rules.



:smallconfused: We're done here.

I mean, even if you want to discount non-physical maturity, for whatever reason, clearly the writers of the rules thought it a thing.

Now, we don’t know if they’re working on emotional maturity and mental maturity and/or spiritual maturity, or other factors, but they clearly wrote that physical maturity is not the only necessity to achieve adulthood.

Not sure why you find that so dismissive, but deciding to be dismissive about it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in the 5e rule set.

[RedMage125]

No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”

Physical maturity=/=maturity
He was only talking about physical maturity, and you quoted the RAW that supports what he said, while claiming he's wrong.

And then you spout nonsense:


If a real-life 14 year old kid reaches physical maturity, it neither means they are a) an adult; nor b) emotionally mature, or mature in any way other than being physically mature.
Where the actual F*** do you get this idea from?
Real life humans aren't done with puberty by 14 (some late bloomers are only starting puberty), most haven't even reached their adult height.
The pre-frontal cortex of the brain (the one responsible for understanding consequences, better understanding of empathy) doesn't PHYSICALLY develop all the way until the mid 20s (average age is 25, but individuals vary). And call that "mental/emotional maturity" all you want, it's still due to the physical development of the brain matter. Also, mid-20s is when a lot of men experience thicker facial hair growth, which will persist throughput their life. The reason the US drinking age is 21 is because that's about when the liver is done developing to be able to process toxins.

By absolutely ZERO metrics are real life humans "physically mature" at age 14, and you asserting that is actually kind of troubling.



Deciding to omit words from the RAW to try and make a point does not actually mean you made a valid point or are correct.
Take your own advice. The PHB says "Elves are considered children until they declare themselves adults, sometimes after the hundredth birthday".

You conveniently omit that in all of your analysis. That "adulthood after 100" is explicitly a social construct of elf culture, despite reaching PHYSICAL maturity at the same age as humans.




Since the PHB uses “adulthood” as their bar for ages, playing a 20-year old elf, if you really want to extrapolate, is akin to playing a 4-year old human: they’re each 1/5th towards being an adult, per the PHB.
No, they say ELVES don't consider an elf adult until they're 100. At this point, you're being intentionally dishonest and obtuse in order to be contrary.

[RSP]

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

[Sorinth]

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

[Rukelnikov]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

Or it could be because in 5e lore, elven children mind is pretty different from elven adults mind, since they remember their past lives and arborea during trance. I haven't read Volo's (i think that's where it was, maybe MTF) in a long while, but I think its when they lose the remembrance that they generally start to travel.

[RSP]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

Absolutely. Not sure why this met such outrage by a previous poster.

All the PHB tells us is that 5e elves reach adulthood at about 100 years old, while 5e humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

So if you want to play an adult human, start them at about 18 or 19. If you want to play an adult elf, start them at about 100.

DM permitting, feel free to play them younger, but you’re not playing an adult character.

[RedMage125]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.
This is given more detail in MToF. During their first century of life, an elf is still reliving memories of their past lives, moreso than the ones of their current existence. Once these fade around the century mark, they finally become more connected to the present and their current life, and can be considered "adult".

Good luck getting through to RSP tho.

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

"Adulthood" is a concept determined by societal norms. Elven societal norms dictate that adulthood begins when the individual elf declares it does (around the 100 year mark). MToF further clarifies that this is due to them no longer experiencing past life memories. All of that is specified in the RAW.

If you understand and accept that, why are you continuing to insist that elves should be given the benefits of an extra 8 decades of adult experience?

[Sorinth]

Absolutely. Not sure why this met such outrage by a previous poster.

All the PHB tells us is that 5e elves reach adulthood at about 100 years old, while 5e humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

So if you want to play an adult human, start them at about 18 or 19. If you want to play an adult elf, start them at about 100.

DM permitting, feel free to play them younger, but you’re not playing an adult character.

But that's just it, an elf can be played as an adult at 20. Elf society might not consider that elf to be an adult, but they also probably don't consider the 20 year old human to be an adult either. Whereas Human society would consider that 20 year old elf to be an adult. One culture's view on what makes someone an adult and has no bearing on whether you actually are an adult, especially since you can be considered an adult in one society but not in another. For example elf society might consider the mark of adult to be someone who puts community over self, so an elf who is out adventuring is viewed to either be a child or at least acting like a child because they are doing the selfish thing and adventuring with friends instead of settling down in the community and doing the mundane family life. So whether you are a 20 year old elf or a 150 year old elf, that society still views the adventurer as a child because adventuring is childish behaviour that adults don't engage in.

[RSP]

But that's just it, an elf can be played as an adult at 20.

Not according the PHB, but I certainly won’t stop you from doing so.



Elf society might not consider that elf to be an adult, but they also probably don't consider the 20 year old human to be an adult either. Whereas Human society would consider that 20 year old elf to be an adult.

I think you’re assuming a 20 year old elf is equivalent in all aspects to a 20 year old Human. Sure, different cultures do have different ideas on what makes an adult, but there’s also very much aspects of maturity, in all respects.

If you’ve seen Poor Things, it depicts a physically mature character, who is not emotionally, socially, psychologically, or mentally, mature.

I don’t think anyone would see that character at the start of the film and say “oh they’re an adult”.

There is a rather standard idea of what it means to be mature and what it means to be an adult. Generally speaking, current Western society doesn’t accept 14 year olds as adults, even if that’s been accepted in the past or in other cultures. So I think it’s fair to go by that idea of adulthood when reading the Age descriptions in the PHB and saying “oh, 5e Elves aren’t that until about 100,” as I play at a table in current Western society.

Likewise, if you’re from a culture that differs from Western ideas of adulthood, it’s fine for you to use the concepts of adulthood you’re used to. But it still holds true, whatever standard you want to use, that 5e Elves don’t reach that standard until about 100.

[KorvinStarmast]

This probably isn't going anywhere productive.
It's quite campaign and DM dependent. Trying to come down with "the right answer" ain't gonna happen, but a 'right answer' for a given campaign can based on how the world building goes.

[Sorinth]

Not according the PHB, but I certainly won’t stop you from doing so.



I think you’re assuming a 20 year old elf is equivalent in all aspects to a 20 year old Human. Sure, different cultures do have different ideas on what makes an adult, but there’s also very much aspects of maturity, in all respects.

If you’ve seen Poor Things, it depicts a physically mature character, who is not emotionally, socially, psychologically, or mentally, mature.

I don’t think anyone would see that character at the start of the film and say “oh they’re an adult”.

There is a rather standard idea of what it means to be mature and what it means to be an adult. Generally speaking, current Western society doesn’t accept 14 year olds as adults, even if that’s been accepted in the past or in other cultures. So I think it’s fair to go by that idea of adulthood when reading the Age descriptions in the PHB and saying “oh, 5e Elves aren’t that until about 100,” as I play at a table in current Western society.

Likewise, if you’re from a culture that differs from Western ideas of adulthood, it’s fine for you to use the concepts of adulthood you’re used to. But it still holds true, whatever standard you want to use, that 5e Elves don’t reach that standard until about 100.

It's indeterminate whether a 20 year old elf who is as physically mature as a 20 year old human is also as emotionally mature as the human or not. It's up to the DM to determine whether the 100 years to be considered an adult is a cultural thing or not, I don't think we can assume that the PHB description means that 100 years means the Western equivalent of 18, which frankly in itself isn't even all that accurate.

And it very much doesn't hold true that whatever standard you personally use means that all races would use the exact same standard and simply adjust to the ages to the PHB. It's completely nonsensical that every society in your fantasy world would have the same standard idea/definition of what it means to be an adult. In fact a big argument for the change in real world definition is that it relates to life expectancy, the age of adult is higher because we expect to live longer then they did previously. And following that thought it makes perfect sense that elves with a super long life expectancy would have a much higher standard of what it means to be an adult then humans would.

[Psyren]

I somewhat doubt the line about elven adulthood meant the designers intended for every single elf adventurer to be 100 years old minimum in order to have adult mental faculties/development. And even if they did, their own data shows (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1648-2023-unrolled-a-look-back-at-a-year-of-adventure#Characters) the majority of people don't play that way; the rules should fit their audience, not the other way around.

[Witty Username]

I somewhat doubt the line about elven adulthood meant the designers intended for every single elf adventurer to be 100 years old minimum in order to have adult mental faculties/development. And even if they did, their own data shows (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1648-2023-unrolled-a-look-back-at-a-year-of-adventure#Characters) the majority of people don't play that way; the rules should fit their audience, not the other way around.

I happen to have a player in my game playing a 20ish elf wizard, one of their character traits is that they are essentially a child in how they process, they just don't get much attention for it because they mostly interact with humans.

The last elf I concepted (backup character for a game, that I likely will not be able to use) was actually going to be in the other direction, an elf old enough that they were starting to show their age which I was guessing would be around 700 years old for 5e's reckoning.

[Psyren]

I happen to have a player in my game playing a 20ish elf wizard, one of their character traits is that they are essentially a child in how they process, they just don't get much attention for it because they mostly interact with humans.

If that's fun for your player I'm not here to yuck their yum, but I doubt the devs intended every sub-100 elf to go around roleplaying as a mental child. These sorts of things are where table variation is reasonable to expect.

[Segev]

If that's fun for your player I'm not here to yuck their yum, but I doubt the devs intended every sub-100 elf to go around roleplaying as a mental child. These sorts of things are where table variation is reasonable to expect.

I'm pretty sure, given that they stated that adulthood is 115+ years of age, that the devs intended for adventuring elves to be at least 115+NdM years old. Just as they intended for adventuring humans to be 15+NdM years old. (Where N and M are determined by your class's age modifier for your particular race.)

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure, given that they stated that adulthood is 115+ years of age, that the devs intended for adventuring elves to be at least 115+NdM years old. Just as they intended for adventuring humans to be 15+NdM years old. (Where N and M are determined by your class's age modifier for your particular race.)

Let me rephrase then - their own data is telling them most people don't play that way, so they should consider/convey elven immaturity to be different than immaturity as we understand it for humans. For example, they could spell out that it's not that they lack adult brain development at, say, 40 years or 80 years of age; rather, it's that they tend to be more flighty and less focused in those years and therefore less inclined to adventuring outside their communities. That kind of thing.

[Witty Username]

I doubt most people actually think about their character's age much in all honesty.

Like when was the last time you had a player actually wanting to explore something like being elderly or young? I think most of it comes to what will get character to be sufficiently attractive.

[yisopo]

I suggest to watch the anime Frieren to see the psychological consequences of living so long for an elf.

[Segev]

Let me rephrase then - their own data is telling them most people don't play that way, so they should consider/convey elven immaturity to be different than immaturity as we understand it for humans. For example, they could spell out that it's not that they lack adult brain development at, say, 40 years or 80 years of age; rather, it's that they tend to be more flighty and less focused in those years and therefore less inclined to adventuring outside their communities. That kind of thing.

They have data telling them people are playing 20-80 year old elves and specifically are playing them as children, or something? I'm confused as to what data you're referring to. This just seems like strange data to have, so I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what data you are saying they have.

[Psyren]

They have data telling them people are playing 20-80 year old elves and specifically are playing them as children, or something? I'm confused as to what data you're referring to. This just seems like strange data to have, so I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what data you are saying they have.

They shared data showing that most players, regardless of race, are playing characters well below 100 years old. Given that elves are the second most popular race per their stats, I'd expect them to make up a big chunk of that pie (and they themselves even cracked a joke about it.) Now, it could very well be that all the elves in that bunch are being RPed as children - I wouldn't know - but somehow I doubt that to be the case. Hence my recommendation about them treating elven mental maturity differently to square the circle.

[Segev]

They shared data showing that most players, regardless of race, are playing characters well below 100 years old. Given that elves are the second most popular race per their stats, I'd expect them to make up a big chunk of that pie (and they themselves even cracked a joke about it.) Now, it could very well be that all the elves in that bunch are being RPed as children - I wouldn't know - but somehow I doubt that to be the case. Hence my recommendation about them treating elven mental maturity differently to square the circle.

Huh. I wonder how many people playing elves at sub-100 years of age just don't know that that's the "official" age of maturity.

[awa]

one of the advantages of elves and for that matter dwarves is you basically know the gist of it right from the get go, I imagine the majority of players dont really read the elf lore at all why would they they already know what an elf is anyhow. the few times I played 5th edition I didn't.