Re-thinking identifying magic items without an arcane caster - how do you handle it?

[Ozreth]

Should start by saying I am a fan of "Use identify spell or detect magic accompanied by spellcraft check and all that comes with that to identify the properties of a magic item." Always worked for us and I think it suits our playstyle.

My move back into 3.5 after many years and a new campaign has me running into some rules considerations. The party does not have anybody with identify or trained in the spellcraft skill.

For Potions: 3.5 DMG rules that you become familiar with potions you have already identified and can just know them as you encounter them. I'm fine with that, except we still need a way to identify them to begin with, and the above methods won't work for my party.

Pathfinder says that you can make a perception check (DC 15+spell level of the potion) to identify it. This seems like an ok method, except we don't use the perception skill in our game (still using spot and search). Also, flavor-wise I'm not sure that's the best.

So I was thinking an arcana check for arcana spell potions and a religion check for potions with divine spells (CLW etc)? Thoughts? Detect magic specifies arcana checks to figure out a school of magic, which is curious to me because divine spells are not arcane, but perhaps the word "arcana' just denotes "magic" in general, and not arcane magic, in which case I would just use an arcane check.

For armor, weapons etc. I may just leave is that they either need to have somebody put points into spellcraft moving forward, have a NPC identify for them, or find various items (artificers monocle, identify wands etc.) to help this do this.

Thanks in advance all.

[Troacctid]

Use the Appraise skill in place of Spellcraft.

[Serantarion]

Complete Adventurer has the feat Appraise Magic Value. Use it as is, or just make it an option for anyone.

[Maat Mons]

In 3.5, it's a Spellcraft check to identify the school of an aura with Detect Magic. No idea why they changed it to a Knowledge (arcana) check in Pathfinder. If the 3.5 version makes more sense to you, just use that. Strictly speaking, all magic would be "arcane" by the dictionary definition. It may not have been the best word to choose for naming a subcategory of magic.

[Ozreth]

In 3.5, it's a Spellcraft check to identify the school of an aura with Detect Magic. No idea why they changed it to a Knowledge (arcana) check in Pathfinder. If the 3.5 version makes more sense to you, just use that. Strictly speaking, all magic would be "arcane" by the dictionary definition. It may not have been the best word to choose for naming a subcategory of magic.

Spellcraft is trained only though, and none of them have put ranks in it, and may not want to. If "arcana" denotes all magic (this would make sense given that it is a class skill for clerics, monks and other non arcane casters), including divine, then perhaps:

Arcana check with DC 15+spell level of potion to identify potion. Once identified they will always know what the potion is moving forward.

[ShurikVch]

Also, Antiquarian - Rogue ACF from Complete Champion - allow to Identify (as the spell, but no components) magical items created by Clerics or Paladins by Knowledge (religion) check; it takes only full-round action; unfortunately, only 1 item per day is allowed; replaces Trapfinding

[Maat Mons]

Do any of them have ranks in Knowledge (arcana)? If not, they can’t make checks with a DC higher than 10. So that DC 15+ check to identify a potion isn’t happening.

Would this roll to identify a potion have consequences for failure? If not, it seems like they’d just keep trying until they succeed. In that case, there isn’t really even any point in asking them to roll.

[Ozreth]

Do any of them have ranks in Knowledge (arcana)? If not, they can’t make checks with a DC higher than 10. So that DC 15+ check to identify a potion isn’t happening.

Would this roll to identify a potion have consequences for failure? If not, it seems like they’d just keep trying until they succeed. In that case, there isn’t really even any point in asking them to roll.

Several of them do have ranks in arcana, and RAW knowledge checks are not allowed to be retried. One and done.

[Pugwampy]

Why so complicated ?

Dnd basic game 2004 had a set of Potions Encyclopedia,s . Identify any potion . In theory it takes up a huge chunk of backpack space and you will need downtime possibly a day to look up the potion .

You can do the same for magic items .

[Chronos]

Don't the rules include a way to identify a potion with a Craft (Alchemy) check?

[Ozreth]

Don't the rules include a way to identify a potion with a Craft (Alchemy) check?

I don't believe so, but it would make sense. However, that would need to be trained as well.

[Darg]

My groups generally hold onto the item and then get the item appraised when they can. It's not that big a deal to hold onto an item until you can do that. Our casters don't always have an identify available after all.

Another option is that an Oil of Identify is rules legal, but as a DM you'd have to allow it.

But basically, the DMG gives you 3 options: trial and error, spells, and you just give up and tell them (it literally says that). So they experiment or look on the item for things like an etched command word. Or they get items to do magic for them. A 5/day identify item only has a suggested price tag of 6800 gp (that 100gp component cost adds 5000; even if you make it 1/day the total would still be 5360). However an oil would only cost 150 gp per use.

[Aquillion]

A wand of identify is notionally expensive, but only because Identify costs 100 gp a pop, which you would have to pay for a wizard to use it anyway; the cost of the wand itself is marginal compared to the materials cost of the spell. Since you only need to identify every type of potion once, there's no reason they can't just buy a wand of identify and use it as needed. Or the custom X/day item, which is probably a better long-term investment since it only costs a tiny bit more than the wand.

If they have anyone capable of casting Detect Magic, an Artificer's Monocle can also be used to identify things and only costs 1500 gp. Even if they have nobody capable of casting the spell, a wand of Detect Magic + an Artificer's Monocle would cost less than any of the other options, and the wand would be a useful thing to carry around anyway (and is cheap to replace once all 50 charges are used, unlike the identify wand.) It does require 5 ranks in knowledge: arcana, though.

[Maat Mons]

If custom items are a problem, Monocle of Perusal was first published in Complete Adventurer and later updated to be a better value in Magic Item Compendium. The new version gives Identify 3/day for 6,500 gp. There’s also a bonus on Appraise, if that’s a thing anyone in your group actually rolls.

The really sweet thing about the updated version, though, is that it’s now explicitly a standard action to use the Identify function. The previous version would have fallen under that general rule from Rules Compendium “Activating a command item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item’s power duplicates.” Not having to spend an hour identifying a single item is nice.

[Satinavian]

I second Artificer's Monocle.

We even used it in groups that had people with identify just to save on the material components. And Detect Magic is extremely widespread even beyond arcane casters. And it is even dirt cheap.

[Ozreth]

Thanks for the replies all.

I'm going to drop an artificer's monocle in some loot by level 3. Until then I'm going to go with:

Sample the potion and succeed on a Knowledge (Arcana) check (DC of 15+spell level of the potion) to identify. On success this potion is always known to that character, assuming they notate it. Cannot retry.

Other magic items (armor etc) will need to be identified via the typical means, whichever they can access.

[smetzger]

Some House rules I have...
1) If you have an identical item on hand and cast detect magic then the two aura's are identical. Cut's down on needing to cast identify for the 2nd +1 chain shirt or the yet another +1 cloak of resistance.

2) Using a generic + item in true combat reveals the item. e.g. using a +1 longsword in combat reveals it to be +1

3) Wands - if you can activate a wand you can fire off one charge and then you know what the wand is

Maybe RAW...
Detect Magic will detect strength of an aura, I allow you to compare like items and can tell which one has a stronger aura. e.g. you have a +1 chain shirt and a +2 chain shirt and it will show that the +2 has a stringer aura.

RAW
DC 25 spellcraft to identify a potion

Magical Appraisal skill trick ( but it does have a prerequisite of Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge Arcana 5 ranks and Spellcraft 12 ranks)

[Darg]

2) Using a generic + item in true combat reveals the item. e.g. using a +1 longsword in combat reveals it to be +1

This is basically what the DMG says you can do. If a player is paying attention it's not very hard to realize the discrepancy, thus the DM can just say what it is.

[Remuko]

Probably not useful for the thread but I'll give my 2cp anyways.

No group in the many years I played 3.0 and 3.5 with IRL, ever bothered with magic item identification at all. When an item was found the DM told us what it was and we wrote it down on our sheet, if it was magical that included any and all effects. There maybe have been a few custom McGuffins over the years that weren't explained but that would have come up when it was relevant. No one ever used detect magic identify or read magic spells ever, in the games I played in. Never seemed like a big deal playing that way. Obviously YMMV.

[YellowJohn]

Back before my players had an artificer's monocle, I took a leaf out of my old roguelike gaming experiences. They'd find 'An Oily Black Potion' (Protection from Good), 'A Tortoishell amulet' (Natural Armour), 'A Sturdy Copper Wand' (Shocking Grasp). We also used the 'comparing aura strengths' method described above, some experimenting...
Added a fun little sub-game trying to figure out what was worth spending a pearl on.

[Jack_Simth]

A wand of Identify can be had for 750 gp.

How?

First:
1) The material component is an Arcane material component - it only applies to Wizards, Sorcerers, and other Arcane casters. Normally, this is only meaningful for Magic Domain Clerics (who get it as a second level spell), but!
2) The Cloistered Cleric has Identify added to their list, as a first level spell, and is a divine caster.

So a Cloistered Cleric with Craft Wand can make a Wand of Identify for 375 gp and 30 xp. Which means they market them at 750 gp.

[St Fan]

I was going to mention that the clerical version of identify doesn't have an expensive material component, but that was done already.
It's open, indeed, to Cloistered Clerics, but also at 2nd level in the Magic domain.

Otherwise, there is also the skill trick "Magical Appraisal", which allows to identify one magic item per day with the casting of detect magic.
Its prerequisites are tough, however (Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge [arcana] 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks).

[Crichton]

The real benefit of using an Artificer's Monocle and Detect Magic is that it's fast. Casting the Identify spell takes an hour per item, even when you have divine access to bypass the costly component. The Artificer's Monocle and Detect Magic are explicitly stated to have the exact same result, and only take one minute.

[Aquillion]

I was going to mention that the clerical version of identify doesn't have an expensive material component, but that was done already.
It's open, indeed, to Cloistered Clerics, but also at 2nd level in the Magic domain.

Otherwise, there is also the skill trick "Magical Appraisal", which allows to identify one magic item per day with the casting of detect magic.
Its prerequisites are tough, however (Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge [arcana] 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks).

As I read the first two I was nodding like, fine, fine... but spellcraft twelve ranks? To replicate a level 1 spell 1/day? What were they thinking?

[GreatDane]

My table uses an expanded Appraise skill. It requires training, but PCs can use Appraise to identify and evaluate the properties of magic items.



Appraise DC
Item Type


Item caster level
Rod, staff


15 + item caster level
Ring, wand, wondrous item


15 + enhancement bonus
Arms & armor


25
Potion



The base DC above determines one property of an item; if it has multiple (ring of elemental command, etc.), then another property is revealed for every 5 points by which they exceed the DC. This use of the Appraise skill doesn't work on scrolls, but anyone with read magic or Spellcraft can decipher a scroll.