OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ellye]

That Polar Ray must have taken quite a bit out of V...

I hope it doesn't count as two Polar Rays or V is in serious trouble.

[woweedd]

Hm..Negotiation may be on the table...

[brian 333]

Kudos to those who recognized that Calder was aware while trapped. I had thought otherwise. While that was not the intent, it was the result of the trap.

Mimi is a mimic, and very awesomely so on this page!

Now would be a good time for O-Chul to summon his Celestial Griffin mount. Oh. Wait. Time to think up Plan B.

[ozmar]

{scrubbed}

Seriously, been following this comic for years. Love it! Hope it never ends, but also really looking forward to the ending. Kudos Rich on a wonderful, expansive, detailed and well-told story!

Now to go back and see where they dropped the paladins...

-Ozmar the Excited

[Beni-Kujaku]

We know he does not know how much time has passed. My guess (for maximum drama) was that the unconscious part of the spell continuously recasted itself, and thus that Calder could roll for Spell Resistance each time, being sometimes awake and sometimes not, but each time he wakes up he has hope he can be free this time, but instead realizes once again that he is still paralyzed.

[remetagross]

Polar Ray is a nasty one, I think V might have been clearly taken out there.

I wonder which spell could have trapped Calder. Seems like the Microcosm psychic power somewhat.

[Edward15]

Alright, so it wasn't Seirini's idea. She had no choice but to keep the dragon prisoner in there. Still, just how many poor decisions did Soon Kim make in his life? The guy was practically the living embodiment of honor before reason.

Also, am I to take those last few panels to mean Seirini left the paladins behind on purpose? Why do I feel like her refusal to trust them is going to come back and bite her?

[Lord Torath]

Just gotta say I am really loving Mimi!

Also, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of paladins with additional healing (and just down-right tons of hit points for soaking damage) about now?

Thanks, Rich!

[Psyren]

See V, if you had transitioned to 5e you'd have Absorb Elements :smallbiggrin:

(The Paladins are close enough to get XP right? Because they could really use some. Minrah might lap them at this point!)

[Lumix19]

Sucks to have spell resistance, I guess!

Hilarious. I love how spell resistance is such a recurring issue for everyone.

[Timy]

Does mass resist fire should have prevented them to be "that" burned ?

[Mic_128]

Also, am I to take those last few panels to mean Seirini left the paladins behind on purpose?

There's no way it was intentional. Hell, she left her own staff when she booked it, and left the entire Order behind her. It was just bad luck that in everyone's haste the Paladin's got left behind. This is the first time that they've really been a part of the party, so not surprising they got forgotten.

[Psyren]

Does mass resist fire should have prevented them to be "that" burned ?

In 3.5e, energy resistance shaves off a flat amount of the incoming damage rather than being a percentage like it is in 5e. So its effectiveness really depends on how much damage Calder's breath weapon deals (but it's better than nothing regardless.)

In Serini's case, as an epic rogue she would have Evasion, so she must have failed her save in that panel (instead of flipping out of the way like Belkar did) which would mean a lot of incoming damage.

[Edward15]

There's no way it was intentional. Hell, she left her own staff when she booked it, and left the entire Order behind her. It was just bad luck that in everyone's haste the Paladin's got left behind. This is the first time that they've really been a part of the party, so not surprising they got forgotten.

Yeah, but Seirini flat out said to Calder that there were no paladins there to save him this time. That gives the impression she deliberately kept them out of it. No way she could forget they even existed.

[Tzardok]

Does mass resist fire should have prevented them to be "that" burned ?

Mass resist fire reduces received damage by 30 (at Durkon's caster level). Calder's breath weapon deals (assuming he's age category Old and not anything higher) 16d10 damage.

[Psyren]

I wonder which spell could have trapped Calder. Seems like the Microcosm psychic power somewhat.

Some variation of Binding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) would be my guess.

[137beth]

I guess Serini hasn't had a bard to remind her of cutaway panels for a long time.

[danielxcutter]

So Serini did want to just kill him and didn't actually intend for Calder to be awake.

I mean that still probably counts as serious incompetence and arguably doesn't really matter for Calder whether or not he was Evil, but doing that on purpose would have been incredibly horrible so it's good to have confirmation she didn't.


I guess Serini hasn't had a bard to remind her of cutaway panels for a long time.

She never did. The Order of the Scribble were a paladin, a druid, a wizard, a rogue, a barbarian, and a ranger/sorcerer multiclass, so unless one of them had Leadership...

[Unoriginal]

Fantastic page!

The art, the fight, the discussion, the punchline!

[Mic_128]

Yeah, but Seirini flat out said to Calder that there were no paladins there to save him this time. That gives the impression she deliberately kept them out of it.

Or 1) She realised they weren't around. There was nothing deliberate that she did to ensure they weren't around. If there was, please point it out.


No way she could forget they even existed.

2) Or yes, she forgot they were with them. If Roy can fail to realise that 2 clerics - one of whom was his best friend - were missing on a small outcropping, then it's entirely within the realm of possibility that the old lady forgot about the two recent arrivals to the group when focused entirely on protecting the only living family she has.

Again, she also forgot her staff in the rush.

[Maat Mons]

It's been so long since I played a Core-only game, I'd forgotten Paladins in such games have to choose between Wings of Flying, a Cloak of Resistance, and a Cloak of Charisma.

[danielxcutter]

Eh, you can get the first two effects from friendly casters. IIRC the Guard had clerics as well.

[Belsirk]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?


p.s. Poor paladins, but then... they are protecting again the free access to one of the gates...

[danielxcutter]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?


p.s. Poor paladins, but then... they are protecting again the free access to one of the gates...

He just has a bunch of daggers.

[Peelee]

See V, if you had transitioned to 5e you'd have Absorb Elements :smallbiggrin:

Sure, but their Int would also be capped at 20.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's one way to deal with unruly paladins, I guess. Pretty thorough.

I wonder how they'll react to the corpse, though.

[Emperor Time]

It's a shame that the paladins were left behind since I am sure they could have contributed in the fight against Calder but it seems like Serini left them behind on purpose which is bound to hurt the party in this fight in the long run.

[Resileaf]

I like Calder's way of casting ray spells is with eye laser beams.

[Tubercular Ox]

I like Calder's way of casting ray spells is with eye laser beams.

Ocular Spell is a feat that exists. Also, Calder mentions getting rid of his cold weakness. And he might've dipped Mindbender. What has Calder done with his build?

[MReav]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

[bunsen_h]

"These idiot kids are stone-cold killers, probably."

Looks like another failed Bluff.


He just has a bunch of daggers.

They're like Haley's arrows (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html).

[OvisCaedo]

Well, that answers several of the questions I had about the exact nature of this imprisonment. Being conscious the whole time was specifically NOT intended, but IS what Calder endured. Ouch.

[KorvinStarmast]

Still, just how many poor decisions did Soon Kim make in his life? The guy was practically the living embodiment of honor before reason. I don't see how it was a poor decision. Soon wasn't a murder hobo.

Also, am I to take those last few panels to mean Seirini left the paladins behind on purpose? Why do I feel like her refusal to trust them is going to come back and bite her? Calder may bite her first.

I guess Serini hasn't had a bard to remind her of cutaway panels for a long time. No bard in Scribblers.

I like Calder's way of casting ray spells is with eye laser beams. Yes, it's a cool artistic choice. Pun intended

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.
No, they don't. Serini's attitude is the detriment - if her intent was to leave them behind. She went tearing off after Sunny in a bit of a panic. The rest of the party also neglected to ensure that the paladin's had a way up ... not just Serini.

Her 'no paladins' lines may be a bluff, she's a rogue, or, she may be aware that they didn't make it up yet. Hard to say.

Mimi in the second to last panel: mimic's gonna mimic. :smallbiggrin:

Why didn't Blackwing cleverly boink out of existence for a bit? One AoE and he's done. Maybe being inside of dimensional stone makes it harder.

[Tubercular Ox]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

[Resileaf]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

They didn't pull V out during the vampire battle. There is literally no reason to save V's life in a battle because the point of the soul theft is to prevent V from doing important things.

[Gift Jeraff]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason.

[Synesthesy]

There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

[Peelee]

There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

Imean, i figured that from hsi appearance back in the Azurite/Goblin war.

[Tubercular Ox]

There is literally no reason to save V's life in a battle because the point of the soul theft is to prevent V from doing important things.

Not feeling it. Obviously V has to be in a position to do something important before they pull him, or else they could have just killed him. It's the loss of V that matters, not the absence.

And to make sure he is doing something important before they pull him, that may require saving him at some point.

Fair point about the vampire fight. OTOH, the vampire fight did not involve one or two Polar Rays.

[Resileaf]

Not feeling it. Obviously V has to be in a position to do something important before they pull him, or else they could have just killed him. It's the loss of V that matters, not the absence.

And to make sure he is doing something important before they pull him, that may require saving him at some point.

V was not doing anything important when they were pulled the first time. They were out in a tunnel separated from the rest of the group. It is the absence that counts, to prevent them from being there at a crucial moment. If V dies in a battle against a red dragon, then they are certain to be absent later (and if they're not absent, it's because they got resurrected afterwards so being pulled from the battle is completely moot).


Fair point about the vampire fight. OTOH, the vampire fight did not involve one or two Polar Rays.

No, but it involved three ranged sneak attacks.

[Precure]

All those times Serini criticized paladins seems weird considering Soon was the reason they didn't kill Calder.


There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

Miko didn't kill anyone surrendered to her.

[elecampane]

Polar Ray is a nasty one, I think V might have been clearly taken out there.

I dunno, seems a bit underwhelming for a 8th level spell slot to me. Up to 1d6/level damage to a single target, maxed at 25d6 (max 150, average 87.5). I mean, Horrid Wilting does the same damage (although capped at 20d6), but for any number of creatures in range. And Symbol of insanity and Mass charm monster are the same level.


In Serini's case, as an epic rogue she would have Evasion, so she must have failed her save in that panel (instead of flipping out of the way like Belkar did) which would mean a lot of incoming damage.
I mean, I assume an Epic Rogue would've taken improved evasion as her special ability somewhere along the progression, so that would mean even on a failed reflex save the damage is halved, and then resist fire (30) on top of that.


Ocular Spell is a feat that exists. Also, Calder mentions getting rid of his cold weakness. And he might've dipped Mindbender. What has Calder done with his build?
He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

[Cazero]

V was not doing anything important when they were pulled the first time. They were out in a tunnel separated from the rest of the group.
Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate.

[Resileaf]

Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate.

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?

[Psyren]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

It's ironic that Soon came the closest to ending Team Evil permanently.


Eh, you can get the first two effects from friendly casters. IIRC the Guard had clerics as well.

They do. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) (Also this, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) same guy I believe.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason. The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pages to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.
The 5e paladin in the PHB was a very well designed class.

[Ghosty]

I dunno, seems a bit underwhelming for a 8th level spell slot to me. Up to 1d6/level damage to a single target, maxed at 25d6 (max 150, average 87.5). I mean, Horrid Wilting does the same damage (although capped at 20d6), but for any number of creatures in range. And Symbol of insanity and Mass charm monster are the same level...

No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

[Psyren]

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important.

[Ghosty]

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pated to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.

At least in this strip, deconstruction of myths surrounding 'proper' Paladin play? As well as deconstructing the overall idea of: Be Paladin. See Creature. Creature is Always Evil. Kill Creature? And that Paladins have the perception of interfering with the murder hobo'ing that a portion of players find fun about D&D and other RPGs?

I see your point on the observation.

[Barstro]

He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate. +1

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important. And we'd have lost out on Book VI which included the re-demise of Crystal, meeting Sigdi, meeting Minrah, and meeting Kudzu.

[Resileaf]

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important.

That's not part of the point. The point is that V's absence is what matters. If V is not there to prevent something from happening (such as by being dead), then the IFCC's objectives are more likely to be fulfilled.

[Debatra]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason.

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

[Riftwolf]

Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

[KorvinStarmast]

Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.
Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How? :smallconfused:

[Debatra]

Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How? :smallconfused:

I think he meant guessing that either Soon was the one who spared Calder's life, or that it wasn't intentional for him to be conscious the whole time, and the rest of his post was unrelated.


Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

Not dominated, just absent. They get his soul, not his body (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html). Though handing her off to Tiamat to torment for a few minutes might ease their "kill a bunch of good dragons" debt a little.

[InvisibleBison]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

The IFCC can't save Vaarsuvius from the polar ray. They can grab their soul, but not their body. Collecting on their debt in the middle of a major fight would actually put Vaarsuvius in a great deal more danger than they were already in, since they would still be vulnerable to attack but could no longer defend themselves or fight back.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think he meant guessing that either Soon was the one who spared Calder's life, or that it wasn't intentional for him to be conscious the whole time, and the rest of his post was unrelated.
Ok, that's a less confusing take on the post. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Debatra]

The IFCC can't save Vaarsuvius from the polar ray. They can grab their soul, but not their body. Collecting on their debt in the middle of a major fight would actually put Vaarsuvius in a great deal more danger than they were already in, since they would still be vulnerable to attack but could no longer defend themselves or fight back.

Actually, this not being true (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html) is probably the only reason she survived Girard's Gate exploding while practically right on top of him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html).

[Rilem]

Polar Ray only gets one attack; it’s not like Scorching Ray. Does Calder have Split Ray? (That’d make it a 10th level spell, I think). (Ocular Spell was noted earlier, and that could also work, storing one in each eye.)

[Errorname]

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

It seems very likely to me that this is what happened. Soon seems like a Paladin's Paladin, for everything bad you could say about him the dude does seem to have had an iron will and took his vows very seriously.

[Peelee]

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

Did he go on a crusade, though? Shojo says he told others to go on a crusade and eradicate the information, and we don't see Soon taking part in the next panel. Also, we directly saw Shojo order a paladin have the Order of the Stick arrested for trial and the paladin interpret that as "kill them all if they put up even token resistance", so it's not out of hand to imagine Soon envisioned one thing with his commands and his Sapphire Guard envisioned something very different.

[Tubercular Ox]

If the IFCC thinks V is going to die (big if!) and it's in their power to save V, then their choices are to let the party continue without an arcane caster, and with no ability to influence future events, or to let the party continue with an arcane caster, over which they still have one measure of control.

I think the IFCC is trying to herd the party towards a destination, and V is helping them by being the party's arcane caster. The pulls should be considered as continuing a plan of regulating the party rather than just trying to find the most opportune time to toss a grenade.

Also, didja notice that they blew a 20 minute pull to stop V from telling Roy not to blow up the gate? You'd think the 6 minute one would've done.


What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.

The spells have V, S, F components. If he's body frozen he can't do that.

Suggestion is an SLA Red Dragons get, hence no components, and a level in Mindbender lets him talk to Sunny without moving his lips.

[Debatra]

It seems very likely to me that this is what happened. Soon seems like a Paladin's Paladin, for everything bad you could say about him the dude does seem to have had an iron will and took his vows very seriously.

To be fair, everything we "know" about him comes from either A: Other people talking about him (and we all know how much this story likes unreliable narrators), or B: That one scene with him in the throne room.


Did he go on a crusade, though? Shojo says he told others to go on a crusade and eradicate the information, and we don't see Soon taking part in the next panel. Also, we directly saw Shojo order a paladin have the Order of the Stick arrested for trial and the paladin interpret that as "kill them all if they put up even token resistance", so it's not out of hand to imagine Soon envisioned one thing with his commands and his Sapphire Guard envisioned something very different.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that those things make that perception correct. Only that this is likely why the perception exists.

[Thecommander236]

As funny as leaving your Paladins behind is, they were unlikely to make the same mistake as Soon given that the Dragon is unlikely to surrender a second time given he wouldn't want to be stuck in a waking nightmare again. Leaving behind some of your fighters for this is not a great choice especially since they are extra healers and tanks. Especially in the case of leaving behind O'Chul which can tank almost anything. That frost beam damned near killed V outright. O'Chul is made for attacks like that.

On top of that, where is Sunny? I'm not comfortable that the Dragon has a brand new Beholder cult member. This is not going to be a pretty fight. If Team Evil wanders in on this, that very well could be game over. As again, for the fear of the dragon surrending, they can't accept that because they have no way to trap him this time around. Finally, it's clear the dragon can't be reasoned with. He wants Serini to submit, but then claims in the next breath that he will reduce her bones to charcoal. He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly.

[Mordar]

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pages to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.
The 5e paladin in the PHB was a very well designed class.

I gotta tell ya, I remember this from my first Gen Con way back in 1980-something. It then percolated through my game group too, though never as badly as what I saw in broader settings like conventions or once I got to University. Always liked paladins. Played a few. Never had the anticipated troubles, probably because we were willing to give other characters space.


No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

Ranged touch. Pretty much 95% successful, right?

- M

[MReav]

It's ironic that Soon came the closest to ending Team Evil permanently.


Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them.

[yes]

Alright, so it wasn't Seirini's idea. She had no choice but to keep the dragon prisoner in there. Still, just how many poor decisions did Soon Kim make in his life? The guy was practically the living embodiment of honor before reason

Soon didn't take part in building the dungeon, so could be that whatever they did with Calder beforehand was a much more reasonable solution.

[Provengreil]

And THAT'S why I didn't jump into earlier discussions on Serini's morality and the morality of Calder's being left conscious: I knew there was information not on the table yet. Also this relaxes me on the state of the rest of the dungeon, at least most of it.

I wonder if Caulder recognized the significance of the Paladin at the time he was captured and Surrendered because he knew Soon would halt the fight?

[Psyren]

That's not part of the point. The point is that V's absence is what matters. If V is not there to prevent something from happening (such as by being dead), then the IFCC's objectives are more likely to be fulfilled.

They can't interfere directly to kill V so this seems like pretty banal point. Pulling their soul was thus meaningful.


Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them.

Nah, he still came closer than she did. It took outside interference for Soon to lose, rather than Team Evil's own ingenuity. Moreover, they were far more powerful in the Soon fight than they were vs Lirian, Redcloak especially.

[Barstro]

The spells have V, S, F components. If he's body frozen he can't do that.

Suggestion is an SLA Red Dragons get, hence no components, and a level in Mindbender lets him talk to Sunny without moving his lips.

Could have prepared them the instant Sunny broke the spell.

[The MunchKING]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.


He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

He's had X years assuming preparing spells is a strictly mental feat.


The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

From what I understand, in earlier editions the Paladins were assumed to be working with a Good Church, and a lot of DMS took as similar to (a real world religion) and then dialed it up to 11. Combining that with DMs that think Paladins are only interesting if they fall, or ones that just hate Paladins and want them to fall anyway, and you have players that have to be EXTREMELY uptight about being Lawful Good lest the Vengeful DMs come and take all their powers away. Which then leads to conflict with everyone who is allowed to have a looser interpretation of morals. Which leads to THEM hating the Paladin because he's the "no Fun" guy. And that became widespread enough it became a stereotype in its own right.

[Blue Dragon]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?

Willingly suspension of disbelief.

[elecampane]

No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

I mean, no saving throw, but you have to hit with a ranged touch attack still (because it is a ray). Sure, their huge Base attack bonus still applies, but it also uses dex modifier, which is +0 for dragons.


What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.
For this specific feat to work you have to actually cast it beforehand. Casting the spell requires verbal and somatic components, which you can't do while paralyzed. He could have Still spell and Silent spell metamagic feats, but he would have to apply both of them at the same time, which would put spell's level above 9th.

[TuringTest]

Well, that answers several of the questions I had about the exact nature of this imprisonment. Being conscious the whole time was specifically NOT intended, but IS what Calder endured. Ouch.

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

[Zancloufer]

So looking at we know about Cador his current level has to be at least 35. He's an Old+ Red Dragon with level(s) in Mindbender and access to at least 8th level spells. An old Dragon makes him at least 28 HD, to get level 8 spells he needs another +1-2 age categories OR 6 levels in spell-casting class, so probably very old or ancient, though I suppose he could've taken the 5 spellcaster levels and at least 1 level in Mindbender.

So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

[Tubercular Ox]

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.

That's what I was thinking when four or five comics in a row people were asking if we were about to see the Monster in the Dark's species. But if it doesn't mean what we think it means, then what does it mean and why didn't we think that?

It's a shame I didn't have the idea last thread, when we were talking about what V's "other" time out would be used for. Could've prevented this entire situation.

How much damage do you think that is anyhoo? I figure anywhere from 15d6 (min level polar ray) to 50d6 (max level polar ray, somehow x2 because of the two eyes).

[Peelee]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

[Tubercular Ox]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I was referring to Calder having to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice before releasing them with a full round action, which is a burden to believing he actually did it.

[Rilem]

If he’s got enough hit dice, Sudden quicken would be an option though it’s a big feat investment.

[bunsen_h]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I think it basically comes down to an open question: did the Polar Ray come from Calder's eyes via the Ocular Spell feat, or was it merely an artistic detail?

I don't think we know yet if Calder was time-stopped in body but not in mind, or if the time stop failed completely (but Calder somehow survived the imprisonment, with nothing in the room showing the expected detritus). I lean towards the former, but am uncertain.

[Kish]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.
What a bizarre reading.

Paladins kill? They're bad. Paladins insist on not killing someone who surrenders? They're bad.

Actually maybe it's a very straightforward reading: is "detriment" part of the definition of "paladin," perchance?

[Mic_128]

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?
No, but then the Order with the exception of Elan (and 50/50 on Haley) would have been killed by Tarquin, letting Xykon get Kraagor's gate unopposed.




The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

Vaarsuvius: I see your game now. You shall possess my empty body, and with it seize the Gates for yourselves!
Lee: What? No, that's ridiculous. That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul into it would be a gross violation of our contract. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html)

They cannot puppet V's body, and letting someone else would be the same basic thing.

[Kish]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

[Peelee]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

[Ghosty]

...So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

And yet incapable of one-shotting anyone with it. Or the Polar Ray that absent some off-screen buff I'm sure I missed, should've Elf-sicled our plucky mage.

Shrug, I'm more than entertained. And GITP is back on the favorites of my phone browser...

[Mic_128]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

At that point why not just keep Vs soul and puppet it immediately?

They're sneaky and devious, sure, but outright lying about the agreement would break the contract.

[Ghosty]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

[Peelee]

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

Levels of Sorcerer., which is much more thematic. :smallamused:

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.
Seconded on both counts.

[Mordar]

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

Sorcerer spell, 8th level so available to any Ancient Red Dragon or lesser age with spellcaster levels...right? Plus could also choose/learn Cleric spells from Chaos, Evil and Fire domains?

- M

[Resileaf]

No, but then the Order with the exception of Elan (and 50/50 on Haley) would have been killed by Tarquin, letting Xykon get Kraagor's gate unopposed.


Unrelated. I'm talking specifically about Roy's decision to destroy the Gate. Would he have made a different decision if V had been dead instead of just having vacated their body for twenty minutes?

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

Evil sure, but imprisoning people in torturous conditions isn't particularly Chaotic.


Unrelated. I'm talking specifically about Roy's decision to destroy the Gate. Would he have made a different decision if V had been dead instead of just having vacated their body for twenty minutes?

His decision was made with Varsuuvius being solidly MIA since the Order found the Draketooth's genealogy.

If he had known Varsuuvius was dead, he may have refrained from destroying the Gate before the elf's body was recovered, because the Order would try to resurrect them and an explosion would have made that much harder. But that wouldn't have stopped the Gate being destroyed, only delayed it.

[Kish]

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?


At that point why not just keep Vs soul and puppet it immediately?
Because if Vaarsuvius knew that they could puppeteer their body, they would avoid being anywhere critical to the Order's plans.

I do not actually expect this to happen. I am rather fearing that the revelation of their actual plans for Vaarsuvius are going to leave me going, "so they don't actually benefit from Vaarsuvius being with the Order; the one thing they get from the Splice time is Vaarsuvius' absence and it would be at least as good for them if Vaarsuvius had been killed by Xykon, directly to the contrary of what they said." But I would think it both hilarious and brilliant if, probably the third time Vaarsuvius got yanked down to the Lower Planes, the following exchange took place.

CEDRIC: And now Director Nero will possess your body...
VAARSUVIUS: What! But you said--
LEE: We implied and you believed us, we said and you believed us, and you never figured out that you should demand to read the contract yourself instead of believing absolutely in the truth of archfiends' words!
CEDRIC: Well, such are mortal minds. So many of you treat a statement, even one you know is from an untrustworthy source, as an established fact.

[Peelee]

Because if Vaarsuvius knew that they could puppeteer their body, they would avoid being anywhere critical to the Order's plans.

I do not actually expect this to happen. I am rather fearing that the revelation of their actual plans for Vaarsuvius are going to leave me going, "so they don't actually benefit from Vaarsuvius being with the Order; the one thing they get from the Splice time is Vaarsuvius' absence and it would be at least as good for them if Vaarsuvius had been killed by Xykon, directly to the contrary of what they said." But I would think it both hilarious and brilliant if, probably the third time Vaarsuvius got yanked down to the Lower Planes, the following exchange took place.

CEDRIC: And now Director Nero will possess your body...
VAARSUVIUS: What! But you said--
LEE: We implied and you believed us, we said and you believed us, and you never figured out that you should demand to read the contract yourself instead of believing absolutely in the truth of archfiends' words!
CEDRIC: Well, such are mortal minds. So many of you treat a statement, even one you know is from an untrustworthy source, as an established fact.
If V thought they could puppeteer V's body then the only way to be non-critical to the Order's plans would be to not be with the Order anymore. Because as non-critical as V might be to the plan, having an additional enemy high-level wizard while also losing your own high-level wizard is almost certain to be critical regardless.

[KorvinStarmast]

He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly. That's a nice summary.

Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them. Yes, Lirian was showing a far lower wisdom than a high level druid usually has. :smalltongue:


From what I understand Thanks for the insights. Our tables never had that problem.

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to? 1. The Ancient Black Dragon has some pretty powerful spells (Anti magic field? Greater Teleport?) available. Calder is in roughly the same league as ABD. Rich doesn't hold to strict RAW.

I see no problem.

EDIT: I took another look at how much I enjoyed this strip.
1. Calder is well written, as a dragon
2. In Panel 7, there's Roy behind the dragon's breath, just caught his sword again, and his eyes are green.
3. Mimi morphing a bit into less defined shape as the dragon breath hits.

Big props to the Giant. The art just rocks.

[gatemansgc]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?


p.s. Poor paladins, but then... they are protecting again the free access to one of the gates...

could just have more

[Kish]

If V thought they could puppeteer V's body then the only way to be non-critical to the Order's plans would be to not be with the Order anymore. Because as non-critical as V might be to the plan, having an additional enemy high-level wizard while also losing your own high-level wizard is almost certain to be critical regardless.
Yes, exactly. They would go away. Instead of staying with the Order. But because they don't know that, they stay with the Order. And the IFCC's line about how, if Xykon kills them, the IFCC's plans have been wasted, would make sense. If all the IFCC wants or needs is Vaarsuvius' absence, well, Xykon almost made Vaarsuvius permanently absent and the IFCC was unhappy about it.

[Peelee]

Yes, exactly. They would go away. Instead of staying with the Order. But because they don't know that, they stay with the Order. And the IFCC's line about how, if Xykon kills them, the IFCC's plans have been wasted, would make sense. If all the IFCC wants or needs is Vaarsuvius' absence, well, Xykon almost made Vaarsuvius permanently absent and the IFCC was unhappy about it.

Sure, for Watsonian reasoning. But my initial issue was Doylistic and I let myself get lost in the weeds. The author conveyed to us that this wouldn't happen.

[Kish]

I very rarely agree with "this character said it and I think they were speaking for the author" when the character in question is not an archfiend speaking to their primary dupe in the story. If they'd said it to Qarr, I'd agree.

(And my reason is also Doylist: Rich will hopefully justify the IFCC actively wanting Vaarsuvius alive at some point before the end of the story, which the first time invocation sure didn't do.)

[Peelee]

I very rarely agree with "this character said it and I think they were speaking for the author" when the character in question is not an archfiend speaking to their primary dupe in the story. If they'd said it to Qarr, I'd agree.

(And my reason is also Doylist: Rich will hopefully justify the IFCC actively wanting Vaarsuvius alive at some point before the end of the story, which the first time invocation sure didn't do.)

Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

If there's a faustian bargain and we see the twist (or part of the twist, if there's more) but we are directly told one of rhe specific things they will not do, at some point you have to believe that because if not, then what's even the point of laying out rhe details to start with? Might as well be "well we said we'd only take your soul for however much time, but turns out we will do it as often as we want for as long as we want for all eternity".

[Resileaf]

His decision was made with Varsuuvius being solidly MIA since the Order found the Draketooth's genealogy.

If he had known Varsuuvius was dead, he may have refrained from destroying the Gate before the elf's body was recovered, because the Order would try to resurrect them and an explosion would have made that much harder. But that wouldn't have stopped the Gate being destroyed, only delayed it.

This is exactly my point. He had no idea where Varsuuvius was, if they were alive or dead, in the pyramid, whatever else. He very clearly, not knowing whether they were alive or dead, made the decision to destroy the Gate. If V had been dead at that moment with no one being aware of it, he would have made the same decision.

[brian 333]

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

Also, it was said by Lee. Had Cedrik delivered the same line I would be much more suspicious.

[Ghosty]

That's a nice summary.
Yes, Lirian was showing a far lower wisdom than a high level druid usually has. :smalltongue:

Thanks for the insights. Our tables never had that problem.
1. The Ancient Black Dragon has some pretty powerful spells (Anti magic field? Greater Teleport?) available. Calder is in roughly the same league as ABD. Rich doesn't hold to strict RAW.

I see no problem.

EDIT: I took another look at how much I enjoyed this strip.
1. Calder is well written, as a dragon
2. In Panel 7, there's Roy behind the dragon's breath, just caught his sword again, and his eyes are green.
3. Mimi morphing a bit into less defined shape as the dragon breath hits.

Big props to the Giant. The art just rocks.

Oh absolutely. I really like the subtlety of the hit displays. Roy's sword sort of slices along Calder, the dagger sinks in, Haley's arrows are mixed. Just top-notch. Very curious to see what Durkon has planned.

(But still, Haley Sneak Attacking Sunny's central eye, probably ends this on Round 1. Then again, the Elf commando Commander was one of my favorite characters in this strip, so....yeah. Again, not that kind of story.)

Fantastic. I can't overstate how delighted I've been by the last 50-60 strips or so.

[Doug Lampert]

And yet incapable of one-shotting anyone with it. Or the Polar Ray that absent some off-screen buff I'm sure I missed, should've Elf-sicled our plucky mage.

Shrug, I'm more than entertained. And GITP is back on the favorites of my phone browser...

Eh? Polar Ray from a sorcerer with caster level 16 damage averages 56 damage.

A level 16 wizard with 12 con and no con boost gets an average of 57.5 HP, and on average remains functional after that spell.

Add an amulet of constitution or a Bear's Endurance and it's even less, and you should IMAO pretty well always assume that something is boosting con by level 16. The order is unoptimized, but this is a level 2 slot, it doesn't deserve to be shown on screen.

[Velaryon]

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

[Ghosty]

Eh? Polar Ray from a sorcerer with caster level 16 damage averages 56 damage.

A level 16 wizard with 12 con and no con boost gets an average of 57.5 HP, and on average remains functional after that spell.

Add an amulet of constitution or a Bear's Endurance and it's even less, and you should IMAO pretty well always assume that something is boosting con by level 16. The order is unoptimized, but this is a level 2 slot, it doesn't deserve to be shown on screen.

They did cast Bear's Endurance earlier. Not sure if it was Mass, but I remember it going off. Silly me thought Calder had a lot more levels than late teens driving the d6. 15-18 d6, sure. Painful. Not lethal. Assuming sufficient buffs. Definitely going to sting though, and a great excuse to ensure our Mage doesn't dominate this battle too.

Aside, given the short range of Polar Ray, and the much longer range of Disintegrate, what would you all---were this a tabletop, and I know it's not---have had V do instead?

[LuckyTheOrc]

Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

If there's a faustian bargain and we see the twist (or part of the twist, if there's more) but we are directly told one of rhe specific things they will not do, at some point you have to believe that because if not, then what's even the point of laying out rhe details to start with? Might as well be "well we said we'd only take your soul for however much time, but turns out we will do it as often as we want for as long as we want for all eternity".

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with Kish or if one of us isn't getting his argument.

If the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince him that they can't make him turn on the party; that his biggest risk is absence, not betrayal. So they tell him they won't/can't possess him during when they gank his soul. That's the narrative purpose; set up the reason why V thinks it's reasonable to stay with the party while setting up the twist for him to be wrong.

[brian 333]

(But still, Haley Sneak Attacking Sunny's central eye, probably ends this on Round 1. Then again, the Elf commando Commander was one of my favorite characters in this strip, so....yeah. Again, not that kind of story.)

I'll bet against Haley blinding Sunny, and instead propose Elan will talk her out of her Domination. All it would take is Calder, (who probably has no concept of friendship because he ate all the little ponies,) to order Sunny to kill Elan.

[Liquor Box]

And THAT'S why I didn't jump into earlier discussions on Serini's morality and the morality of Calder's being left conscious: I knew there was information not on the table yet. Also this relaxes me on the state of the rest of the dungeon, at least most of it.

I wonder if Caulder recognized the significance of the Paladin at the time he was captured and Surrendered because he knew Soon would halt the fight?

I think very little of the earlier discussions on Serini's alignment turned on whether Calder was conscious. But I agree, much worse if he had been deliberately conscious the whole time.


So looking at we know about Cador his current level has to be at least 35. He's an Old+ Red Dragon with level(s) in Mindbender and access to at least 8th level spells. An old Dragon makes him at least 28 HD, to get level 8 spells he needs another +1-2 age categories OR 6 levels in spell-casting class, so probably very old or ancient, though I suppose he could've taken the 5 spellcaster levels and at least 1 level in Mindbender.

So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

Do we think he's a more Order level challenge? Or a more Team Evil level challenge?

From what we have seen, he appears less powerful than we might have thought. We might expect the breath weapon of an older dragon to kill characters with smaller hit dice, but noone appears to have. Serini and her shapeshifting companion have worn two dragon breaths with appearently no healing (although Serini may have evaded the first).


Sorcerer spell, 8th level so available to any Ancient Red Dragon or lesser age with spellcaster levels...right? Plus could also choose/learn Cleric spells from Chaos, Evil and Fire domains?
- M

We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

[danielxcutter]

Well, all of Calder’s supernatural abilities and spells would have bounced right off of Xykon at least, though they’d probably work better on Redcloak and Oona. And Xykon has Stoneskin so he can reduce a lot of damage from Calder’s attacks. But Calder might have some other spells that would do actual damage to Xykon as well. Team Evil would handily win, but they’d expend a decent amount of resources doing so.

[Resileaf]

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

The best part is that when he does actually die, it will almost definitely look like a fakeout at first.

[The MunchKING]

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

Yeah, but the characters haven't gone out of their way to say (or an old man stopping the story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej0U9KW5Wt4) to say) "this isn't the part where Belkar dies".

The fiends have said they aren't intending on saving V, and they can't go up there to do anything unless they are making deals. Belkar COULD die here, I don't think he will, but he could without contradicting anything we've been told. I think that's what makes it worse for me.


Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

I think it's true that THEY won't take over her body, because that would be a violation of the contract they set forth. However I don't think they'll take responcibility if some OTHER spirit thing happens to find V's soulless body and takes over it for a bit.

That Quarr called the Spirit Being in advance and let them know when V would be soulless is something they'd be shocked, SHOCKED! I tell you, to hear. :smalltongue:



We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

from the version I saw online it said + 1 level of an existing spellcasting class.

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

[Liquor Box]

Well, all of Calder’s supernatural abilities and spells would have bounced right off of Xykon at least, though they’d probably work better on Redcloak and Oona. And Xykon has Stoneskin so he can reduce a lot of damage from Calder’s attacks. But Calder might have some other spells that would do actual damage to Xykon as well. Team Evil would handily win, but they’d expend a decent amount of resources doing so.

He'd probably get experience too, so get even stronger from it.



from the version I saw online it said + 1 level of an existing spellcasting class.

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

Hmm, I must admit I assumed that knowing sorcerer spells meant that he counted as having levels of an existing class. He told us he's a mindbender, so do you think he would have needed sorcerer or wizard levels to access it?

[Peelee]

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with Kish or if one of us isn't getting his argument.

If the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince him that they can't make him turn on the party; that his biggest risk is absence, not betrayal. So they tell him they won't/can't possess him during when they gank his soul. That's the narrative purpose; set up the reason why V thinks it's reasonable to stay with the party while setting up the twist for him to be wrong.

Except that exact same setup could also be achieved by omitting those lines entirely.

[Kish]

No it couldn't. Vaarsuvius immediately thought the fiends were going to have their body do something. And if Rich had simply never written the possibility occurring to Vaarsuvius...well then there would be many people on the forum calling Vaarsuvius unaccountably stupid for not thinking of it (correctly, in my opinion).

But no one thinks it's surprising that Vaarsuvius is proceeding as if Lee saying it proves it's true. Not even me, much as I hope they're wrong to do so.

[Peelee]

No it couldn't. Vaarsuvius immediately thought the fiends were going to have their body do something. And if Rich had simply never written the possibility occurring to Vaarsuvius...well then there would be many people on the forum calling Vaarsuvius unaccountably stupid for not thinking of it

Sure, i can see that. Probably because i can also see Rich directly and explicitly spelling out in the comic that it can't happen and people on the Fforum clamoring that sure, it still can, because the fiends didn't say it under the exact specific circumstances that the forumite is willing to accept.

I don't find such arguments particularly compelling, of course.

[LuckyTheOrc]

Sure, i can see that. Probably because i can also see Rich directly and explicitly spelling out in the comic that it can't happen and people on the Fforum clamoring that sure, it still can, because the fiends didn't say it under the exact specific circumstances that the forumite is willing to accept.

I don't find such arguments particularly compelling, of course.

Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.

[Nymrod]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.

[Walter Lawson]

Belkar took both pets up (when v lifts him up)
We haven't seen the lizard at all during the fight, what would hapen if it runs of into sunny's (main) sight?
There is a risk it could be charmed/dominated by Calder but if it would happen near the end of the battle, a surprise bite could turn the tide of battle? a nice crit bite attack to the neck?

[Alex Warlorn]

It's disturbing when protagonists treat a code of conduct and not murdering enemies who have laid down their arms as an inconvenience.

{scrubbed}

[Tzardok]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Calder is a vampire? Or in any other way undead?

[Provengreil]

So, a thought just occurred about everyone surviving the damage so far. If Calder's dragon levels allow entry into mindbender, and he took those class levels, would his dragon breath still get stronger? I know it's usually measured in hit dice, but there also usually aren't class levels involved.

[Liquor Box]

So, a thought just occurred about everyone surviving the damage so far. If Calder's dragon levels allow entry into mindbender, and he took those class levels, would his dragon breath still get stronger? I know it's usually measured in hit dice, but there also usually aren't class levels involved.

I don't think so - I think you just get what the class levels give (a few extra hps, and some spells and abilities)

That's why I think it's a good fit - Calder's breath weapon seems weaker than expected, but he has additional casting abilities.

[Laurentio III]

That "probably" is the sickest burn in whole page.

[Psychronia]

Hmm. So we learn that Calder was open to surrender once, but probably won't again. Also that Soon was the one who elected to spare him and his consciousness was unintentional.

I'm...not sure where this puts the two Scribbles ethically. Sparing a surrendering monster, even an evil dragon, is probably a good point on Soon's part; but also, he evidently didn't supervise Calder enough despite knowing what a definite risk he was.

I guess that means he trusted Sereni's capabilities, and her negligence is the driver of all this. It certainly wasn't malicious, but it's not like that undoes the harm done. On the other hand, Calder is a pretty blatantly evil and malicious dragon, so it's not like you could exactly let him roam free or anything. If killing isn't on the table and letting him go isn't on the table, I...think imprisonment or some manner of enslavement were always the only options? So I guess her single if major mistake was not regularly checking on that particular trap and thus never learning that the stasis was faulty and she's ethically in the clear?

I guess whoever helped her with that stasis magic-probably Dorukan-also has to bear a lot of responsibility. I doubt the final Gate will last to the end of the story, but if it does, Sereni ought to go around checking any stasis traps for monsters with high spell resistance. Though...It's not like she has anyone who could fix it around. What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level?

[hroþila]

Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.
The thing with Faustian bargains is you expect the devil to screw you over technicalities while still strictly adhering to the terms of the agreement. Having the devil straight up lie to your face about the terms kinda defeats the purpose

But sure, hypothetically speaking the archfiends could be lying

[Mic_128]

I think it's true that THEY won't take over her body, because that would be a violation of the contract they set forth. However I don't think they'll take responcibility if some OTHER spirit thing happens to find V's soulless body and takes over it for a bit.

Then that's not "shielded from all harm" at all, is it, if something else can just pop over and possess their body.


Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.

By that logic the fiends can do whatever they want, whenever they want, with no limits.

They made a contract and have laid out the specifics: They get V's soul for the time based on the soul splice. They cannot use V's body. They will protect and keep their body safe. Putting another soul in V's body is in violation of the contract.

[The MunchKING]

Then that's not "shielded from all harm" at all, is it, if something else can just pop over and possess their body.

Not if the possessor nor anyone else has anyway of harming the body. Is getting up and moving around "harm"?

[Unoriginal]

Hmm. So we learn that Calder was open to surrender once, but probably won't again. Also that Soon was the one who elected to spare him and his consciousness was unintentional.

I'm...not sure where this puts the two Scribbles ethically. Sparing a surrendering monster, even an evil dragon, is probably a good point on Soon's part; but also, he evidently didn't supervise Calder enough despite knowing what a definite risk he was.

I guess that means he trusted Sereni's capabilities, and her negligence is the driver of all this. It certainly wasn't malicious, but it's not like that undoes the harm done. On the other hand, Calder is a pretty blatantly evil and malicious dragon, so it's not like you could exactly let him roam free or anything. If killing isn't on the table and letting him go isn't on the table, I...think imprisonment or some manner of enslavement were always the only options? So I guess her single if major mistake was not regularly checking on that particular trap and thus never learning that the stasis was faulty and she's ethically in the clear?

I guess whoever helped her with that stasis magic-probably Dorukan-also has to bear a lot of responsibility. I doubt the final Gate will last to the end of the story, but if it does, Sereni ought to go around checking any stasis traps for monsters with high spell resistance. Though...It's not like she has anyone who could fix it around. What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level?

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.

[Kish]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.
Huh?

Oh, Haley saying that all have Mind Blank because of being used to fighting vampires. That...does not actually say "the mind-controlling opponent I am addressing is a vampire."

[Mic_128]

Not if the possessor nor anyone else has anyway of harming the body. Is getting up and moving around "harm"?

I'd say letting a friend steal the car of a co-worker is harming that co-worker. Replace car with body, and yes.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm not sure if "safe from all harm" is actually part of their contractual obligations, though. They did it that once, but are they actually required to?

[Unoriginal]

Huh?

Oh, Haley saying that all have Mind Blank because of being used to fighting vampires. That...does not actually say "the mind-controlling opponent I am addressing is a vampire."

Same as when Durkon compared Malack's poison spell to his mother's cooking, it didn't mean that Malack was trying to recreate a meal Durkon was nostalgic for.

Though given Malack's rather peculiar tastes even for a vampire, him actually trying to cook a meal for Durkon would probably have been more harmful than the spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). ???

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Calder is a vampire? Or in any other way undead? Good question. (But I think Kish may have solved that puzzler).

That "probably" is the sickest burn in whole page.
Yes, she slipped that in nicely. :smallsmile:

What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level? Maybe Xykon. And he's not a wizard.

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.
{snip}
This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't. Nice post. And it fits with the discussion by EGG in the AD&D 1e material on how subdued dragons usually look for a way to get back at their subduers ...

[The MunchKING]

I'd say letting a friend steal the car of a co-worker is harming that co-worker. Replace car with body, and yes.

If the co worker wasn't going to use that car anyway for a while, then it's only harm because it's putting wear and tear on the car and they might break it by crashing it into something. So if the car is indestructible and doesn't run out of gas, it's not really harm. Well for the co-worker. If the friend kills a bunch of people by running over them in an indestructible car that would cause harm to them, but not your co-worker.


So in the metaphor stealing V's body is only really "harm" in the sense of V's bodily autonomy and she already sold that off to the fiends in the first place. But V's body being possessed by something else can still do a lot of damage while being immune to all harm.


I'm not sure if "safe from all harm" is actually part of their contractual obligations, though. They did it that once, but are they actually required to?

No, they say (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html) they're doing it for "Good customer service", which I admit was above and beyond what people expected back when V first sold her soul, although many did call the "didn't have to wait until she's dead" bit.

[danielxcutter]

Same as when Durkon compared Malack's poison spell to his mother's cooking, it didn't mean that Malack was trying to recreate a meal Durkon was nostalgic for.

Though given Malack's rather peculiar tastes even for a vampire, him actually trying to cook a meal for Durkon would probably have been more harmful than the spell.

Doesn't exactly hurt that dwarves literally get save bonuses against poison, tbh. Even before considering the Con modifier.

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't exactly hurt that dwarves literally get save bonuses against poison, tbh. Even before considering the Con modifier.

That was the joke.

[danielxcutter]

That was the joke.

Yes but it's still funny that Malack used literally the worst spell he could have on Durkon aside from a positive energy healing one.

[Mic_128]

If the co worker wasn't going to use that car anyway for a while, then it's only harm because it's putting wear and tear on the car and they might break it by crashing it into something. So if the car is indestructible and doesn't run out of gas, it's not really harm. Well for the co-worker. If the friend kills a bunch of people by running over them in an indestructible car that would cause harm to them, but not your co-worker.

So in the metaphor stealing V's body is only really "harm" in the sense of V's bodily autonomy and she already sold that off to the fiends in the first place. But V's body being possessed by something else can still do a lot of damage while being immune to all harm.


I'm trying really damn hard not to be condescending, but come freaking on. Do you honestly think Rich is going to randomly give Fiends/their allies, not only V's body to do whatever they want with, but also allow it to be indestructible at the same time? Like seriously? Seriously?

[Tubercular Ox]

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

Draconomicon adds this tidbit:

A dragon that becomes a member of the sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting ability, but uses its actual sorcerer level and character level to determine its other class abilities.

That might throw Rich in favor of letting it happen.

[danielxcutter]

There are numerous cases of innate spellcasting monsters progressing it further with levels in their casting class and/or a prestige class across the edition, so yes they stack.

[No good @ names]

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

I for three, welcome our new red dragon overlord! I mean, yes, nice art Giant! I totally wasn’t dominated looking in Calder’s eyes…

[Elanfanforlife]

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

Vaarsuvius is True Neutral after making a deal with devils to wipe out 25% of a species's population and an unknown amount of other creatures. While Vaarsuvius clearly regrets it now, Serini also regrets imprisoning creatures who didn't want to work for her. Based off of the alignment system we have seen so far, there is no way this would bring Serini even close to Chaotic Evil by itself.

[bunsen_h]

Finally, it's clear the dragon can't be reasoned with. He wants Serini to submit, but then claims in the next breath that he will reduce her bones to charcoal. He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly.

He could "torture and kill [her] in spectacularly gruesome fashion", then reduce her bones to charcoal.

[The MunchKING]

I'm trying really damn hard not to be condescending, but come freaking on. Do you honestly think Rich is going to randomly give Fiends/their allies, not only V's body to do whatever they want with, but also allow it to be indestructible at the same time? Like seriously? Seriously?

I mean they've already SAID they've made the body indestructible, the rest is just whether or not someone can take over it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder, or preemptive crusades to remove perceived or real threats, or underhanded clan practices, etc.

Then we come to the more evil-aligned parties. The Linear Guild seemed largely "screw you, we do what we want" chaotic-evil, the Vector Legion are "we will rule a unified continent through hegemony" lawful-evil, and Team Evil are somewhere in the neutral-evil middle in the perpetual tug-of-war between Xykon and Redcloak, moderated by saner allies along the way like Oona and Greyview, the MitD (to the extent they can even be called Team Evil's ally anymore), Jirix, et al.

I still feel like whatever promised uber-threat the IFCC has coming will probably force the OotS and Team Evil to team up briefly to defeat it, before having their climactic final battle, but that's just my speculation and I have no real evidence for it, just an expectation that nothing before the end will go conventionally.

[Kish]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder, or preemptive crusades to remove perceived or real threats, or underhanded clan practices, etc.
Interesting point.

[Unoriginal]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder

The only two times the Order of the Stick (as a group) had to deal with defeated bad guys they didn't want to kill, they also resorted to indefinite imprisonment.

Samantha and her father were left tied up in a forest, unable to defend themselves. It was understood they'd break out eventually, but how long it'd take was none of the Order's concern and the two bandits could easily have been found by an Owlbear or other hungry creatures before they'd manage.

Meanwhile, for the Linear Guild, the OotS decided to stick them in antimagic cells with no defined end to their imprisonment.

I fail to see how it's better than what the Order of the Scribble wanted to do with Calder.



I still feel like whatever promised uber-threat the IFCC has coming will probably force the OotS and Team Evil to team up briefly to defeat it, before having their climactic final battle, but that's just my speculation and I have no real evidence for it, just an expectation that nothing before the end will go conventionally.

If anythreat can get the Order and the Team to work together, it's the Snarl themselves, IMO.

[Psychronia]

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.

That's true. Though it could also be that there are regular saves against the spell that Calder has a chance to redo and he's simply too stubborn or proud to willingly do it after the fact.

We also don't actually know when Calder was sealed vs when he was imprisoned; maybe he had different terms of imprisonment before Sereni decided to add him to her defense. Even if the seal was immediately put on him after his surrender and never had to be undone during transport, presumably he could have contacted someone like you said when Sereni moved him to the dungeon.
...Well. I guess he could have just been angrily threatening her the whole time, which is how she knows Sunny going his way is bad. In which case, an increased mark of negligence on her part.

Even if I think it's fair game to resist even after surrender to people you don't trust, I'm not one to make excuses the evil red dragon either way. It's just a possibility.

[Precure]

Soon had nothing to do with Calder's sealing, as as per Serini's comments he didn't contribute anything to this dungeon and its defenses.

[Unoriginal]

Soon had nothing to do with Calder's sealing, as as per Serini's comments he didn't contribute anything to this dungeon and its defenses.

Caldet blames the whole group for his imprisonment. And explicitly says that the imprisonment is a consequence of surrendering.

"Soon convinced us to spare that Dragon one time, so we sealed him, then I took the idea and ran with it for my dungeon" does not mean Serini considers Soon contributed.

[Bookwyrm13]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

[Tzardok]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

I'm currently assuming that Calder laired in the vicinity of the rift, either intentionally or by accident, and the Final Dungeon was built around the site of his defeat and sealing because they were already close to each other.

[Belsirk]

Willingly suspension of disbelief.

Amen!

But to be frank, is the first time I saw Belkar having so many daggers :smallbiggrin:He truly got ready for the Non-Durkon

[Unoriginal]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

Important to note that while we don't know how long it took, there was a certain amount of time between "the Order of the Scribble seals the last Rift" and "the Order of the Scribble build the first Gate". And they managed to work together until the last Gate was finished.

Furthermore, the construction of the Dungeon of Dorukan was done during the "building the Gates" period, and the Final Dungeon is very similar in term of architectural features, so it's likely it was built at the same time.

So one way or another we're looking at long period between "Calder is defeated by the Order, before Kraagor's death" and "Serini takes on defending her Gate".

I think it makes more sense if he was put in stasis immediately after his defeat and put in the dungeon later (either by displacing him or by building the dungeon around his prison).

[Faldrath]

I'm not sure if anyone has made this point, but if it was indeed spell resistance that allowed Calder to remain conscious... he's unlikely to be the *only* monster with high spell resistance in the dungeon. Since there has been speculation that there is a "final" encounter with something really special, well, it wouldn't surprise me to see that final encounter having high spell resistance and then being really, really angry, even if it went into stasis willingly.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vaarsuvius is True Neutral after making a deal with devils to wipe out 25% of a species's population No. Before that V was TN. V headed toward evil with Familicide, which the deva tried to warn Roy about before he left Celestia (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html). Belkar greeted V at that point (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) into the deep end of the alignment pool.

I'm not one to make excuses the evil red dragon either way. What amazes me is that there are people who do. :smallcool:

[Tzardok]

No. Before that V was TN. V headed toward evil with Familicide, which the deva tried to warn Roy about before he left Celestia (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html). Belkar greeted V at that point (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) into the deep end of the alignment pool.

Belkar inferred from the Darth Varsuvius outfit and is not necessarily an authority. And the deva spoke specifically of "moving into the direction of Evil". The way I see it, V is on a precipice. They may still retreat to Neutrality if they manage to repent. If V didn't regret, then the Fall would be certain.

Part of the problem here is that Stickworld apparantly differentiates between "official" alignment, which is what the character has on the "character sheet" and actually decides how stuff interacts with them, and "final" alignment, which is the "true" alingment, is only determined after death and decides which afterlife you get.

[Liquor Box]

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

Also, I don't quite understand how spell resistance worked here. It seems that Calder is saying that his body was effectively paralyzed by the stasis spell, but his consciousness wasn't suspended at the same time. So the spell resistance prevented some aspects of the spell, but not others.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.[/QUOTE]

[The MunchKING]

The implication to me is there were two spells, a "physically keep you bound in this circle" spell and a stasis spell that was supposed to shut him off. He made his spell resistance check against the stasis spell and thus was conscious, but didn't save against the binding circle so he was still stuck in there.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar inferred from the Darth Varsuvius outfit and is not necessarily an authority. I disagree. Belkar has been consistent throughout the comic as a truth teller (the inconvenient truth) in his own sarcastic voice and style.


And the deva spoke specifically of "moving into the direction of Evil".
Which if we look at the two axis alignment model (not that stupid nine square grid) menas that tye left the very narrow TN zone where X and Y axes intersect and moved somewhere toward the E terminus of the axis. How far is arguable.


Part of the problem here is The 3.x forgot about the graph.

Go here and look at page 4
https://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf

[Liquor Box]

The implication to me is there were two spells, a "physically keep you bound in this circle" spell and a stasis spell that was supposed to shut him off. He made his spell resistance check against the stasis spell and thus was conscious, but didn't save against the binding circle so he was still stuck in there.

But if he was able to act, but was stuck within the circle, saying "trap me in own body" is a bit of an odd thing to say.

[The MunchKING]

But if he was able to act, but was stuck within the circle, saying "trap me in own body" is a bit of an odd thing to say.

True. It might have been more of a paralysis thing...

[TheNecrocomicon]

The only two times the Order of the Stick (as a group) had to deal with defeated bad guys they didn't want to kill, they also resorted to indefinite imprisonment.

Samantha and her father were left tied up in a forest, unable to defend themselves. It was understood they'd break out eventually, but how long it'd take was none of the Order's concern and the two bandits could easily have been found by an Owlbear or other hungry creatures before they'd manage.

Meanwhile, for the Linear Guild, the OotS decided to stick them in antimagic cells with no defined end to their imprisonment.

I fail to see how it's better than what the Order of the Scribble wanted to do with Calder.

There's all kinds of difference between things like just leaving people tied up long enough for the party to get away and not be bothered by them again, or lawful imprisonment by the authorities of an area where people had actually committed crimes, versus indefinite indentured servitude as a stasis-bound dungeon guardian.

The two bandits (IIRC) and definitely the Linear Guild were people who had in fact committed heinous criminal acts and deserved imprisonment or were too dangerous to leave at large. And even then, besides the straight-up confinement, in neither case did this involve torture or anything equivalent to it. Meanwhile, decades spent locked in stasis could very well have driven Calder insane with rage, which even someone with a penchant for enthralling cultists does not necessarily deserve.

Also, I'm going by the principle discussed in the scene with Roy and his Deva in the afterlife that it's not just individual acts that matter, but the bigger picture. Roy was allowed to stay under Lawful Good because, as imperfect and sometimes borderline as he got, what matters is that he led himself and the rest of the OotS in a good-aligned and order-aligned direction overall.

It seems to me that the Scribblers walked a more morally ambiguous and neutral path on the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen, not only because of things like subduing and repurposing a powerful red dragon, but also they simply exhibited more self-centered jerkassery to each other. They couldn't put individual desires secondary to working as a team. They were driven by an all-encompassing objective of preserving the world from the Rifts and the Snarl, but allowed morally grey things to happen on their watch as they pursued that goal.

[Mic_128]

I mean they've already SAID they've made the body indestructible, the rest is just whether or not someone can take over it.

Which, again, they have already SAID that doing so would violate the contract.

[The MunchKING]

Which, again, they have already SAID that doing so would violate the contract.

No, they said THEM putting another soul in it would be a violation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html). They didn't make any promises on behalf of anyone else.

[Psychronia]

It seems to me that the Scribblers walked a more morally ambiguous and neutral path on the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen, not only because of things like subduing and repurposing a powerful red dragon, but also they simply exhibited more self-centered jerkassery to each other. They couldn't put individual desires secondary to working as a team. They were driven by an all-encompassing objective of preserving the world from the Rifts and the Snarl, but allowed morally grey things to happen on their watch as they pursued that goal.

On that subject, does this new comic strip imply that Subdual was not how the Scribble took down Calder? Because they seemed pretty content to go for lethal damage until he surrendered-and I assume more people than Sereni were down to just kill him.


Though now that I think about it, I'm kinda curious how the party individually weighed in on the situation. I was gonna say Giriard is the sort of paranoid who'd kill the enemy just to be safe, but there's his draconic bloodline which could push his stance in either direction. Dorukan could be neutral or have an academic curiosity. Considering Lirian spared Xykon...well...

[bunsen_h]

No, they said THEM putting another soul in it would be a violation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html). They didn't make any promises on behalf of anyone else.

I would certainly count it as injurious if my body were to be used for purposes antithetical to my own desires and nature, even if it took no direct hurt.

[The MunchKING]

I would certainly count it as injurious if my body were to be used for purposes antithetical to my own desires and nature, even if it took no direct hurt.

Yeah but V sold her soul to fiends, she's already acting antithetical to her desires and nature. :smallamused:

[LuckyTheOrc]

Yeah but V sold her soul to fiends, she's already acting antithetical to her desires and nature. :smallamused:

Technically true, but I think it's beside the point.

V made a deal to trade possession of their soul for X amount of time in exchange for power.

That's the extent of the terms and conditions they were aware of at the time.

When the fiends yoinked the soul early to keep from destroying the gate, that was a surprise as the fiends had mislead through omission. Anything they advise V after that is explanation from an source already confirmed to be deceptive. It might be true, false, or deceptive.

When they say "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" it could be completely true, it could be misleading as they intend to have Sabine do it and thus not technically them or a violation, they could be bull****ting V entirely.

When they say V's body is shielded from all harm, that's not remotely implied by their original terms. To whatever extent V's body is shielded from harm, it's purely for the fiends' benefit and to the extent it benefits the fiends. I don't think it's necessary to split hairs about what counts as harm when the prohibition against harm is a post-facto addition by proven deceitful and self-interested parties.

[H_H_F_F]

This strip tells us that Calder was paralyzed but conscious, which means it was telepathy that allowed him to contact Sunny. To me, that's enough evidence to conclude that the 'mindbender' quip referred to an actual level in mindbender.

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Speaking of V, I think the whole discussion about the fiends lying to them doesn't really work. Catching them on a technicality? Obviously. Straight up lying? At that point, they could've just permanently talen over V, and of story.

Any thoughts on how Calder got rid of his cold vulnerability?

[Tzardok]

The Draconomicon includes a feat Overcome Weakness, which removes Vulnerability to an energy.

[gerryq]

Yeah, but Seirini flat out said to Calder that there were no paladins there to save him this time. That gives the impression she deliberately kept them out of it. No way she could forget they even existed.

That was my take too. But if she left them behind by accident, she should remember there are a couple of extra party members pretty soon. But then again, somebody should anyway.

[Kardwill]

The thing with Faustian bargains is you expect the devil to screw you over technicalities while still strictly adhering to the terms of the agreement. Having the devil straight up lie to your face about the terms kinda defeats the purpose

But sure, hypothetically speaking the archfiends could be lying

Yes, "We didn't say when we would take over your soul" is the kind of obvious-in-retrospect loophole that fit a "deal with the devil" story. Taking over his body when they explicitly said they would not do it. It isn't a loophole to the contract, but an entirely new clause that didn't exist when the contract was sealed. It lacks narrative elegance.

[danielxcutter]

This strip tells us that Calder was paralyzed but conscious, which means it was telepathy that allowed him to contact Sunny. To me, that's enough evidence to conclude that the 'mindbender' quip referred to an actual level in mindbender.

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Speaking of V, I think the whole discussion about the fiends lying to them doesn't really work. Catching them on a technicality? Obviously. Straight up lying? At that point, they could've just permanently talen over V, and of story.

Any thoughts on how Calder got rid of his cold vulnerability?

Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it, but in this case I think it's just a neat way to portray it.

[BloodSquirrel]

When they say "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" it could be completely true, it could be misleading as they intend to have Sabine do it and thus not technically them or a violation, they could be bull****ting V entirely.


This actually depends somewhat on the mechanics involved. If the fiends need a contract in the first place to take someone's soul, then it implies that there are forces which prevent them from removing souls at will, and such mechanics could also make things like putting a soul in other people's bodies impossible without their consent. In order for putting a different soul in V's body to be a "gross violation of their contract" it would either have to be something that they have a specific clause forbidding or something that they would need a specific clause to allow. Since it doesn't appear to be the former, the latter must be true, and thus Sabine would not be able to do it on her own.

Let's say you had a contract with an employer that demanded that you be at a work location for a specific period of time. It would be a "violation of your contract" for your employer to send someone to occupy your house while you were there, even if you contract doesn't mention anything about it, because entering someone's house without permission is illegal to start with. The contract doesn't allow them to do it, without a clause specifying otherwise. They couldn't "get around" this by having a third party enter your house instead.

So either the "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" line is a complete lie, there is an unmentioned clause which forbids it (which wouldn't make sense, because why would they put that in there if V wasn't even thinking to ask for it?), or they would need an express clause allowing it, in which case Sabine can't do it on her own.

Of course, it could turn out to be that there is an obscure "law" that this contract creates a loophole for, but that wouldn't be very narratively interesting, since it would mean that what they can or can't do is dependent on knowledge that is inaccessible to the audience, making everything that happens functionally random. It's hard for me to see how it could be any kind of clever misdirection when we don't know enough about how this stuff works for it to feel like we were being misdirected instead of just being lied to.

So all of this is to say that there's no real narrative function to the line other than to tell us that it's something that they can't do.

[H_H_F_F]

Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it, but in this case I think it's just a neat way to portray it.

That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

[Tubercular Ox]

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Also, Calder would have to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice in the previous 8 hours before releasing the spells on V. If Rich wanted to do a "Stasis stops feat timers" thing then Calder could've done it decades ago, but it's not something I'm ready to assume yet.

Ocular Spell has a lot of difficulties, but the description of Polar Ray actually says in the first sentence that it comes from your hand, so I'm not super happy to just give up and say it was art style. Maybe there's another excuse out there for shooting rays from your eyes. It's hard to search for.

[bunsen_h]

That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

I think that there are only two times we've seen a dragon casting a ranged spell. One was draco-Mom's Finger of Death (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html). That one, unsurprisingly, was emitted from her claw/finger. The other is in the bonus material in No Cure For the Paladin Blues, in which the silver dragon cast Banishment, and the spell appeared to emanate from the dragon's hand/paw. So not much precedent, but what there is, somewhat supports the eye-beams being atypical.

[H_H_F_F]

Also, Calder would have to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice in the previous 8 hours before releasing the spells on V. If Rich wanted to do a "Stasis stops feat timers" thing then Calder could've done it decades ago, but it's not something I'm ready to assume yet.

Ocular Spell has a lot of difficulties, but the description of Polar Ray actually says in the first sentence that it comes from your hand, so I'm not super happy to just give up and say it was art style. Maybe there's another excuse out there for shooting rays from your eyes. It's hard to search for.

I think timing isn't that big of a deal; he had a few good rounds to buff up. It took the Order a while to realize something was amiss. They messed around in the shallows, they found the secret door, they started walking, and then realized and rush back.

Calder knew there were enemy forces coming. It's not ludicrous to think he decided to utilize the time to improve his action economy.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think timing isn't that big of a deal; he had a few good rounds to buff up. It took the Order a while to realize something was amiss. They messed around in the shallows, they found the secret door, they started walking, and then realized and rush back.

Calder knew there were enemy forces coming. It's not ludicrous to think he decided to utilize the time to improve his action economy.

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html).


Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it

I do care about this, but Calder could have cast the "Ocular Polar Ray" spells decades ago, gotten their timers frozen, then called his attacks unnecessarily, like that one fighter with Power Attack in the thieves' guild scene. So it's a choice between Rich drawing something cool that doesn't follow the description of the spell, or Rich adding something extra to a cool scene that follows the rules so that it's more understandable to the audience. Rich doing more than he normally does either way.

[Precure]

Caldet blames the whole group for his imprisonment. And explicitly says that the imprisonment is a consequence of surrendering.

Imprisonment and sealing are two different things.


Taking over his body when they explicitly said they would not do it. It isn't a loophole to the contract, but an entirely new clause that didn't exist when the contract was sealed. It lacks narrative elegance.

They weren't making a contract when they said that they're not put anything.

[H_H_F_F]

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html).


Good point.

[TheNecrocomicon]

On that subject, does this new comic strip imply that Subdual was not how the Scribble took down Calder? Because they seemed pretty content to go for lethal damage until he surrendered-and I assume more people than Sereni were down to just kill him.

Though now that I think about it, I'm kinda curious how the party individually weighed in on the situation. I was gonna say Giriard is the sort of paranoid who'd kill the enemy just to be safe, but there's his draconic bloodline which could push his stance in either direction. Dorukan could be neutral or have an academic curiosity. Considering Lirian spared Xykon...well...

I think the subdual comes from one of the tie-in materials, a calendar or some such, that apparently showed the Scribblers subduing Calder back in the day.

From my estimation of the Scribblers, I'm sure they entertained the idea of killing Calder but probably keeping him alive and useful to them was better, from a utilitarian perspective, than just killing him and being done with it. Sounds like Serini was down for just killing him, but the rest all have very sound reasonings for letting him live in their service for however long that lasted. Lirian and Soon have druid and paladin principles to work with; Dorukan would go "hey, a dragon, we can use him"; Kraagor would just be happy he bested a dragon with even more of a self-imposed challenge; even Girard would understandably be averse to just killing a dragon, out of (1) kinship and (2) Ranger possibilities.

And considering the Scribblers' big life project was sealing the rifts and building the gates and the protective systems around them, no doubt they figured an extremely powerful dragon would be a useful resource in that regard. Or even just as their servant somehow.


Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html).

Considering that the panel where Calder's speech bubbles went to normal-shape was focused on Sunny, I'm pretty sure the release had to do with Sunny's anti-magic cone nullifying the arcane lines on the floor, rather than Serini's presence which just had coincidental timing.

[bunsen_h]

Would Protection From Evil free Sunny from Calder's control, at least temporarily? That would probably be of greater value than just getting Sunny to blink.

[jokem]

Didn't someone say the Cone of Cold should have done some damage?
Removing a vulnerability is not the same as immunity.

[jokem]

Would Protection From Evil free Sunny from Calder's control, at least temporarily? That would probably be of greater value than just getting Sunny to blink.

Or magic circle vs Evil. I am surprised Durkon has not prepared that spell.

[MeowMeow]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

[Unoriginal]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

To me, those are separate rounds.

Don't think Calder hitting Haley was an AOO either.



If this was based on 5e then I would say "Legendary Actions".

EDIT: Also, Zombie halfling?

There are no undead of any kind in this page.

[Shining Wrath]

Did Mimi just point to mimic Serini? :smallsmile: But wouldn't a mimic be dead after taking that much damage?

Also, it doesn't look like Serini is fighting. She's just talking, although she seems to be drawing some of Calder's fire, in both senses of the word.

The Order's attacks (except V's spell) seem to be hitting. But that's one big pile of hit points to whittle away.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Draconomicon includes a feat Overcome Weakness, which removes Vulnerability to an energy. Why would a dragon get another feat? It already has four feet. :smallbiggrin:


Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html). I got the idea that Sunny's eye took care of that.

So it's a choice between Rich drawing something cool that doesn't follow the description of the spell, or Rich adding something extra to a cool scene that follows the rules so that it's more understandable to the audience. Cool ice rays out of the eyes, yes. :smallsmile:

If this was based on 5e then I would say "Legendary Actions". As would I.

[The MunchKING]

Did Mimi just point to mimic Serini? :smallsmile: But wouldn't a mimic be dead after taking that much damage?

Didn't Serini say she had class levels? Or in some other way was the most powerful mimic on the force?



Hmmmm... Here she says (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1269.html) Mimi is "Biggest", but not necessarily class levels or even high HP.

[Tubercular Ox]

Considering that the panel where Calder's speech bubbles went to normal-shape was focused on Sunny, I'm pretty sure the release had to do with Sunny's anti-magic cone nullifying the arcane lines on the floor, rather than Serini's presence which just had coincidental timing.


I got the idea that Sunny's eye took care of that.

Yes, that's right. The point was that Serini coincidentally showing up one panel before Sunny's eye provided the release makes it difficult to believe that Calder got any free rounds to buff himself off panel.


Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.

A Returning weapon could only be thrown once, then the user would have to wait until next turn for it to return. This is a flawed explanation for Roy, because Greatswords can't be Returning weapons and Roy summons it instead of it returning, but I wonder if it follows similar timing.


Didn't Serini say she had class levels? Or in some other way was the most powerful mimic on the force?

Hmmmm... Here she says (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1269.html) Mimi is "Biggest", but not necessarily class levels or even high HP.

She could have advanced HD. Rich already appears to be ignoring the rule that they can only mimic something approximately the same size, so she could be normally-Huge with 11-21 HD.

Edit: Mimi shut the door. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html) Roy calls her, "The giant mimic. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1281.html)"
How big do we think she is?

[Envyus]

On Calder. Pretty sure he’s just a Wyrm or Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Polar Ray coming from his eyes was just because it’s cool looking not because he has a fancy prestige class.

[The MunchKING]

On Calder. Pretty sure he’s just a Wyrm or Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Polar Ray coming from his eyes was just because it’s cool looking not because he has a fancy prestige class.

Feat, technically. The mind control is from the fancy prestige class.

[fuschiawarrior]

I really like the detail that the polar ray went through Vaarsuvius and hit the wall behind them.

[Mordar]

We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

I wasn't sure if it was certain/generally accepted that Serini's comment was accepted as level-based, and then I didn't know the specifics of that prestige class. But yes, I thought so.


That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

We have seen all other metamagic castings declared as such, though, right? I think straight Rule of Cool.

- M

[Tubercular Ox]

We have seen all other metamagic castings declared as such, though, right? I think straight Rule of Cool.

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.

[DavidSh]

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.
Was Sunny casting rays from their eyes? Any other non-humanoids casting rays?

[Tzardok]

Was Sunny casting rays from their eyes? Any other non-humanoids casting rays?

Sunny doesn't count. It is not a spellcaster, it has the racial ability of Eye Rays.

[Mordar]

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly CyclopsScott Summers alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

[H_H_F_F]

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly CyclopsScott Summers alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

I think the argument is which explanation is the simplest and most plausible, right?

1. Without precedent, Rich decided to make a ray spell come from the eyes instead of the fingers, and be doubled/split, because it's cool.

2. Without precedent, Rich decided to not call out metamagic, because it's a unique type of metamagic where you cast the spell beforehand (which we haven't seen) and release it later. So the procedure would go {Ocular polar ray [cast to store], Ocular polar ray [cast to store], polar ray [cast to release]}


Explanation 2 suffers from a lot of stuff mentioned in this thread to make it less likely.

Explanation 1 suffers because it has to assume that coincidentally, the cool presentation that could've been anything (polar ray coming from the horn, the mouth, whatever) JUST HAPPENED to look exactly like a mechanical element of the sort that the comic is built on top of would be presented (coming from the eyes, two rays instead of one).


I don't think that explanation 1 is as obviously simpler or more plausible as you make it up to be.

[AvangionQ]

Was that a TWINNED Polar Ray?! We're talking about anywhere from 30D6 to 50D6 cold damage depending on the dragon's caster level. Wizards still using D4s for hit dice. V might be dead. 😨

[Theris]

Explanation 3 is that Calder was stuck in stasis for so long he forgot he had to use metamagic to cast Ocular polar ray and the one individual who could correct his mistake is the one targeted by the spell.

[H_H_F_F]

Was that a TWINNED Polar Ray?! We're talking about anywhere from 30D6 to 50D6 cold damage depending on the dragon's caster level. Wizards still using D4s for hit dice. V might be dead. 😨

The nature of the ray is in discussion - one side believing it to be a standard polar ray with a cool presentation, the other to be metamagic.

If you support the metamagic interpretation, ocular spell seems like the best candidate. Split ray would also make more sense than twin spell, from a cost-benefit analysis. Both split ray and ocular spell would be easier to explain than twin spell without significantly upping previous estimations of Calder's age / amount of class levels.

Either way, if indeed there were two rays, we're talking 32d6 at the very least (calder casts as a sorcerer, would only achieve 8th level spells at CL 16)

[danielxcutter]

Even if that was just a standard Polar Ray that is quite a bit of damage, tbh. As dragons are innate sorcerers, that damage starts at 16d6 which is an average of 56 points. That'd easily be a quarter or more health of someone like Roy or Durkon, let alone Vaarsuvius.

[Liquor Box]

Even if that was just a standard Polar Ray that is quite a bit of damage, tbh. As dragons are innate sorcerers, that damage starts at 16d6 which is an average of 56 points. That'd easily be a quarter or more health of someone like Roy or Durkon, let alone Vaarsuvius.

His breath weapon is 16d10 (assuming old Dragon, more if he's older), which is an average of 88 damage, and some of the party have been hit by it twice.

[danielxcutter]

I mean yeah, that's why they've put up Mass Resist Fire and gotten healing. That second one is going to be doing a lot less damage, due to Durkon having a high enough caster level for Mass Resist Fire to reduce fire damage by 30. Serini also probably has a pretty deep health pool due to sheer amount of levels even with age penalties to Constitution. In contrast, Polar Ray is doing cold damage, which V wouldn't have protected against, and also is a ray spell that doesn't allow a saving throw to reduce damage.

[Kardwill]

His breath weapon is 16d10 (assuming old Dragon, more if he's older), which is an average of 88 damage, and some of the party have been hit by it twice.

Unless I'm mistaken, no member of the party took 2 breath, apart from (maybe) mimi. Serini completely evaded the first blast, Belkar apparently evaded both unscathed, and no other party member were in both blast radiuses

But yeah, the first blast put some major outchage on Elan, Roy and the clerics. Fighting a red dragon is no fun.
(OK, it's actually pretty fun.
But, y'know, for the players.
NOT for the characters ^^)

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly CyclopsScott Summers alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

Firstly, your ability to create explanations sillier than anything that's on the table demonstrates that you know what a silly explanation looks like. This means you have the power to take silly explanations off the table without being forced into the arms of some other explanation. You choose not to use it.

Secondly, Rich has a habit of drawing rays from the finger. Assuming he gave up on that habit without impetus is like throwing a ball into the air, seeing it not come down, and assuming gravity failed that day instead of the ball having some quality that keeps it in the air.

Thirdly, we are discussing one panel published just a few days ago. Surely we are still in discovery? Trying to force a conclusion now is a bigger leap than I'm comfortable making.

Fourthly, what H_H_F_F said.

[Blue Dragon]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

This is a comic action scene, not a RPG fighting round.

[Kardwill]

This is a comic action scene, not a RPG fighting round.

Yeah. Showing Calder taking an action, then waiting for the 10 other characters to act, would make a very static scene. (It's already very static when you actually play it. Watching it would be worse)

[Tubercular Ox]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm), so even if pwokking it back is quick or free, I think sword tosses are our metronome here. Roy does it twice, so at least two rounds.

Elan also gets two rounds, one with the Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, and next with the song he gets going.

Calder does get to do a lot. If the first breath weapon is the surprise round, then Dominate Person is round one, Polar Ray is round two, and the second breath weapon is round three.

He whacks Haley with his tail, but my hunch is that's not a standard action for some reason. Does Haley have some feature that prevents attacks of opportunity when she performs a ranged attack inside a monster's reach?

So obviously the preference is going to be to show Calder's actions, for reasons mentioned above, but he is not as far ahead as he first appears.

[danielxcutter]

The tail smack actually might have been done as a standard action; dragons can fly, yes, but their maneuverability isn't great (especially at older ages) so he's probably using his move action to stay in the air. And dragon tail attacks have a 1.5x Str modifier, so they might very well do more damage than a bite. I don't think they can just make a single tail attack by RAW, but 3.5e RAW gets very silly in multiple ways so I wouldn't blame the Giant for ignoring that.

[Mordar]

I think the argument is which explanation is the simplest and most plausible, right?

1. Without precedent, Rich decided to make a ray spell come from the eyes instead of the fingers, and be doubled/split, because it's cool.

2. Without precedent, Rich decided to not call out metamagic, because it's a unique type of metamagic where you cast the spell beforehand (which we haven't seen) and release it later. So the procedure would go {Ocular polar ray [cast to store], Ocular polar ray [cast to store], polar ray [cast to release]}

Explanation 2 suffers from a lot of stuff mentioned in this thread to make it less likely.

Explanation 1 suffers because it has to assume that coincidentally, the cool presentation that could've been anything (polar ray coming from the horn, the mouth, whatever) JUST HAPPENED to look exactly like a mechanical element of the sort that the comic is built on top of would be presented (coming from the eyes, two rays instead of one).

I don't think that explanation 1 is as obviously simpler or more plausible as you make it up to be.

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19. Totally possible, I think...but is it likely? And if so, is Calder likely to use the one 10th level slot for this spell? And if it is doubled by Ocular Spell that means 2 10th level slots. And if it is Split and Ocular then it is a 12th level slot (I think? +2 level for each feat). Am I reading all of that correctly?

Again, high level arcane casters in the 3.0/3.5 world are far from my specialty. So maybe that lack of familiarity impugns my position, but I am going to hold that Rule of Cool seems significantly more likely than either 1 10th level slot burned, 2 10th level spell slots burned, or a level 12 spell slot burned.

The biggest counterpoint I see for myself is based on review of the panels for this conversation, and it is that the two rays remain distinct all the way through V. Had I been doing this comic (assuming all of the skills I don't have) and had I meant it to be exactly what I laid out, I would have had the two eye rays converge, exactly like Cyclops' optic blasts when he isn't visored.

Query: The rays punching through him...is there any meta effect that would allow rays to "cleave"?

Confirmation: If this is and Ocular Spell cast polar ray, two Ocular Spell cast Polar Rays, or a Split Ray Polar Ray, V is eating at least 19d6/38d6, right? Or would it be 20d6/40d6? Assumes both hit because...well, both hit.


Firstly, your ability to create explanations sillier than anything that's on the table demonstrates that you know what a silly explanation looks like. This means you have the power to take silly explanations off the table without being forced into the arms of some other explanation. You choose not to use it.

Secondly, Rich has a habit of drawing rays from the finger. Assuming he gave up on that habit without impetus is like throwing a ball into the air, seeing it not come down, and assuming gravity failed that day instead of the ball having some quality that keeps it in the air.

Thirdly, we are discussing one panel published just a few days ago. Surely we are still in discovery? Trying to force a conclusion now is a bigger leap than I'm comfortable making.

Fourthly, what H_H_F_F said.

We are 100% in the fun part of the conversation - trying to figure out what we just saw, so I agree we are in discovery and I am just putting down my expectation. I would like people to agree with me and be right (meaning I'm right) just to validate that guess, but certainly am not going to force anyone.

I think there is an impetus. It looks cool and it fits in a fractional panel thus avoiding either needing it to be a replication of panel one pointing the other direction (or a broader splash) so it saves narrative space. To me, this is more assuming the ball landed on the roof or got caught by someone else, not an alteration of the physics of the universe.

- M

[The MunchKING]

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19.

Character Level 21, IIRC. You need a special Epic feat to even GET 10th level slots.


This isn't Pathfinder 2ed. :smallwink:

[Rollin]

Explanation 3 is that Calder was stuck in stasis for so long he forgot he had to use metamagic to cast Ocular polar ray and the one individual who could correct his mistake is the one targeted by the spell.

Rather than being Watsonian or Doylist, this explanation seems "Lestradian".

[H_H_F_F]

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19. Totally possible, I think...but is it likely? And if so, is Calder likely to use the one 10th level slot for this spell? And if it is doubled by Ocular Spell that means 2 10th level slots. And if it is Split and Ocular then it is a 12th level slot (I think? +2 level for each feat). Am I reading all of that correctly?

Again, high level arcane casters in the 3.0/3.5 world are far from my specialty. So maybe that lack of familiarity impugns my position, but I am going to hold that Rule of Cool seems significantly more likely than either 1 10th level slot burned, 2 10th level spell slots burned, or a level 12 spell slot burned.

The biggest counterpoint I see for myself is based on review of the panels for this conversation, and it is that the two rays remain distinct all the way through V. Had I been doing this comic (assuming all of the skills I don't have) and had I meant it to be exactly what I laid out, I would have had the two eye rays converge, exactly like Cyclops' optic blasts when he isn't visored.

Query: The rays punching through him...is there any meta effect that would allow rays to "cleave"?

Confirmation: If this is and Ocular Spell cast polar ray, two Ocular Spell cast Polar Rays, or a Split Ray Polar Ray, V is eating at least 19d6/38d6, right? Or would it be 20d6/40d6? Assumes both hit because...well, both hit.



We are 100% in the fun part of the conversation - trying to figure out what we just saw, so I agree we are in discovery and I am just putting down my expectation. I would like people to agree with me and be right (meaning I'm right) just to validate that guess, but certainly am not going to force anyone.

I think there is an impetus. It looks cool and it fits in a fractional panel thus avoiding either needing it to be a replication of panel one pointing the other direction (or a broader splash) so it saves narrative space. To me, this is more assuming the ball landed on the roof or got caught by someone else, not an alteration of the physics of the universe.

- M

I mentioned this earlier: I think one of the downsides of the metamagic theory is that it forces us to assume either significantly higher level (twin spell, unmitigated ocular spell) or specific build choices (mitigated ocular spell).

So, mechanically, you really don't have to assume 10th level slots here - or even a higher level than the minimal level Calder would need to be to cast polar ray

8th level spell by itself means we're dealing with an old dragon with at least 5 class levels that advance his casting (25 HD+), a very old dragon with at least 3 such levels (24 HD+), an ancient dragon with at least one such level (24 HD+), or a wyrm or older dragon (24 HD+)

Except the first option (which is the highest level one), all these options allow for a feat to be taken after having achieved polar ray, without needing to take any more levels than the minimal amount necessary to cast polar ray.

Taking practical metamgic (ocular spell) at any point in the build would reduce the metamagic cost to +1. Taking arcane thesis (polar ray) as the last feat (meaning, after having gotten polar ray) would get that to a 0 increase.

Now, there are other, better ways to achieve this, but they seem either too convoluted / cheesy for them to be a likely explanation, given Rich's distaste for mechanical deep-dives, or require more level investment / higher HD.

Do I think that's necessarily exactly what's going on here? No. Do I think the level increase presents issues, whether or not it's mitigated? Yeah.

Do I think that "it would require some intentional build choices by Calder" makes my case fall apart? Not really.

[bunsen_h]

Rather than being Watsonian or Doylist, this explanation seems "Lestradian".

Well, the comic has played with some similar (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) concepts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html). The first incident was early-days and can't be taken seriously, and then the second one didn't really allow retroactive correction. :smallsmile:

[Envyus]

Feat, technically. The mind control is from the fancy prestige class.

I assume that was just regular Enchantment magic via something like still spell and telepathy magic.

[derfenrirwolv]

They really should have gotten him to fight the lich for/with them. All they would have to do is join a dragon cult, and how awesome would that be?

[The MunchKING]

Less Awesome than making a dragon join YOUR Cult. Where's a Lamb when you need one? :smalltongue:

[H_H_F_F]

I assume that was just regular Enchantment magic via something like still spell and telepathy magic.

Telepathy is super not trivial to achieve with a spell for a non willing subject. Additionally, you'd need silent spell on top of still spell. You'd need two feats, and the best way I can think of to do it would be getting domain access to the mind domain.

The alternative - that the dragon described as a bit of a mindbender is a bit of a mindbender - seems more likely.

[danielxcutter]

Admittedly, I don't think it'd be too hard for a dragon of Calder's age. But Mindbender does fit the situation as well quite handily.

[Tubercular Ox]

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".


I don't want to accidentally imply that one must know the rules in order to enjoy the comic, that's obviously not the case. But if your reaction to an argument centered on the rules is going to be, "I don't know the rules and I don't care to learn," then it feels like you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Everything that's happened recently has had rewards for people who like the rules: Calder hypnotizing Sunny while frozen, Elan casting a spell he's never cast before, V trying to exploit a weakness Calder doesn't have anymore. All of those are awesome. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff to please people who like the rules that people who don't like the rules wouldn't even know to care about, like Calder hovering in place or the analyzable action economy.

Polar Ray is the glaring exception of the past few strips, and if you're going to argue it doesn't matter that it's a glaring exception, then you're back to arguing that the ball floats because gravity failed.

I'm not saying Ocular Spell is the answer. I'm saying proving that Polar Ray followed no rules requires just as much positive evidence as proving that a particular rule was followed, because that would be unique among ray spells and unique among other events of the past two or three strips. It is not a safe default.

[Provengreil]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm), so even if pwokking it back is quick or free, I think sword tosses are our metronome here. Roy does it twice, so at least two rounds.

Elan also gets two rounds, one with the Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, and next with the song he gets going.

Calder does get to do a lot. If the first breath weapon is the surprise round, then Dominate Person is round one, Polar Ray is round two, and the second breath weapon is round three.

He whacks Haley with his tail, but my hunch is that's not a standard action for some reason. Does Haley have some feature that prevents attacks of opportunity when she performs a ranged attack inside a monster's reach?

So obviously the preference is going to be to show Calder's actions, for reasons mentioned above, but he is not as far ahead as he first appears.

Also, most of the damage going into Calder is simple HP damage: not very narratively exciting unless the whole point of the fight is a slow grind to victory. We can assume it's continuing just off panel.

[Mordar]

They really should have gotten him to fight the lich for/with them. All they would have to do is join a dragon cult, and how awesome would that be?

I was soooo thinking this when I was doing the math, if you will, on Calder's effective levels. The question I hit was "Would Roy become a willing Calder slave if Calder had said 'I'll kill the lich and goblin for you if you become my willing slave'?" No tricks version - Calder jumps Team Evil and either Calder dies (Roy is off the hook) or Calder wins and Roy enters servitude.


I don't want to accidentally imply that one must know the rules in order to enjoy the comic, that's obviously not the case. But if your reaction to an argument centered on the rules is going to be, "I don't know the rules and I don't care to learn," then it feels like you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Not at all. To reiterate, I am not a 3.0/3.5 expert in ultra high level arcane magic rules. I have played and DMed a reasonable amount of 3.0 and 3.5. I have played and GMed an enormous amount of other RPGs over 40 years of gaming. As you will trivially see in my response above I acknowledged my shortcoming in this area and then went and read the available rules. Based on the reading of those rules my position has been reinforced for me.


Everything that's happened recently has had rewards for people who like the rules: Calder hypnotizing Sunny while frozen, Elan casting a spell he's never cast before, V trying to exploit a weakness Calder doesn't have anymore. All of those are awesome. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff to please people who like the rules that people who don't like the rules wouldn't even know to care about, like Calder hovering in place or the analyzable action economy.

Polar Ray is the glaring exception of the past few strips, and if you're going to argue it doesn't matter that it's a glaring exception, then you're back to arguing that the ball floats because gravity failed.

I'm not saying Ocular Spell is the answer. I'm saying proving that Polar Ray followed no rules requires just as much positive evidence as proving that a particular rule was followed, because that would be unique among ray spells and unique among other events of the past two or three strips. It is not a safe default.

This comic attracted me because it had the fun of rules references and easter eggs and nods aplenty. The discussions on levels, builds, and the huge meta-story of commentary on alignment and D&D cosmology all hit great notes for me.

Fixating on this one topic, however, and hinging on what to my understanding is a particularly obscure feat from what was definitely an obscure sourcebook (yes, I had Lords of Madness, actual hardback copy...doesn't mean it was terribly useful) and then thinking that discounting it as the likely solution (which you allow, though I can't tell if you believe) is akin to saying there are no operable rules in this universe. Accepting that the second Dragon spellcaster we've seen in the main comic must be bound by the same casting rules as the humanoids we've seen cast spells is reasonable, in my opinion, but equally reasonable to assume that they are not de facto required to do so in what is really a flavor-variation only.

It isn't that Polar Ray followed no rules, by the way. It is that it seems it broke one rule. I have capitulated breaking that one rule might have been intended to reflect Ocular Spell, and it might even have been intended to depict either two castings of Polar Ray enhanced by the Ocular Spell *or* Ocular Spell and Split Ray. This may have been a deep dive intending to show us that by golly Calder could have had a good shot at taking down TE by itself if only the Order hadn't gotten in the way of Serini's plan...after all, Calder is [really old maybe Ancient] Red Dragon with Epic feats and enhanced spell casting abilities. Especially if TE is down even 10% efficacy by having gone through the rest of the dungeon. Or, it could be, that the OotS DM flexed a rule just a bit to allow for a cool moment (that also spares space in the visual presentation) as has probably been done literally millions of times in the history of table top RPGs...but I wouldn't know about that because I don't know the rules and don't care to learn. If I did, though, I might also know about Rule Zero. But I don't.

Aside: Since you brought up gravity and normal expectations related to it, I assume there must be a rules-specific solution to how Calder is able to hover. Did Calder cast levitate or fly? Perhaps has taken the Hover feat? Isn't this a far more fundamental question than how a spell effect was depicted?

In large part, this feels to me like a true expert being unable to suspend even minimal disbelief saying "But the base configuration of that personnel vehicle is equipped with 16.2mm armor plating, and at a range of greater than 250m a shot fired from that weapon with a standard 1500 grain round isn't going to be able to punch more than 12.7mm so no way it hit, penetrated the crew compartment and killed the mentor right after he said he loved the hero like a son!".

Again, though, I admit I could be wrong and Calder could be an Epic spellcaster in an Ancient Red Dragon form with the Hover feat, and the Order is going to regret not letting him eat Team Evil and then willingly becoming Calderservants.

- M

[HorizonWalker]

I would like to point out something fairly vital to the whole contract situation V's got with the Fiends:

There is no written contract. The deal was a straightforward verbal agreement laid out in a scene where we can reasonably assume we did, in fact, see everything that got said. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

Incidentally, if you go back and read that page, you'll note another interesting piece of information: Quarr is an Imp, a variety of Devil. He is not a being of Pure Evil, but rather, of Evil and Law. Devils are beings of Law, just as much as Modrons and Archons, and they cannot go back on their word any more than Modrons can. Fun little tidbit I hadn't noticed until I went back and checked, which supports, but is not strictly necessary for, the main thrust of my argument:

The deal is a verbal agreement. You're not allowed to lie about written contracts either, that's definitely still fraud, but there's a greater chance of getting away with it, because there is a formal written record of what was, technically, agreed to. A verbal agreement, however, holds up far less well if you're going to actively lie to the other party about it. This does raise the question of why Lee would assure V that they wouldn't put another soul in V's body while V was in Hell, and I think I have an answer:

Lee is twisting the knife. The way the Fiends talk to V is very, very tinged with a "customer service" cadence that helps to remind Vaarsuvius that they agreed to this, that this is, ultimately, Vaarsuvius' fault*. The Fiends didn't make V do anything, they just sat back and let V do all that useful work on their own initiative. And given that Lee is a Devil and a being of Law and Evil, being cruel for the sake of being cruel isn't exactly inconsistent with their characterization.



*Important note: Vaarsuvius agreed to this deal under duress and after a great deal of carefully-calculated emotional manipulation to make Vaarsuvius want to do this. It is only technically true that the Fiends didn't make V do anything- they didn't put a gun to V's head, they just waited for someone else to do that and then offer some carefully-chosen "friendly advice." Vaarsuvius still had to be a particular sort of person for it to be possible to manipulate them into doing that, but they were, quite explicitly, manipulated. Culpability can be complicated in cases like these, and all I'm willing to commit to is "Lee probably thinks it will hurt Vaarsuvius more to be told, implicitly, that this situation is really V's fault and responsibility." Even that I'm not completely sure about- in the vernacular of another corner of the internet, Lee might've just been saying words recreationally.

[LuckyTheOrc]

I would like to point out something fairly vital to the whole contract situation V's got with the Fiends:

There is no written contract. The deal was a straightforward verbal agreement laid out in a scene where we can reasonably assume we did, in fact, see everything that got said.[/URL]


The deal is a verbal agreement. You're not allowed to lie about written contracts either, that's definitely still fraud, but there's a greater chance of getting away with it, because there is a formal written record of what was, technically, agreed to. A verbal agreement, however, holds up far less well if you're going to actively lie to the other party about it. This does raise the question of why Lee would assure V that they wouldn't put another soul in V's body while V was in Hell..


I threw out a theory on that several pages ago, but I'll kick it up again here too: because otherwise V wouldn't stay with the party.

The terms of the deal specified nothing about who was allowed to do what with V's body while it was un-ensouled, but if V thought it could be puppeted against their friends they might not stay with the party because they'd be too much of a risk. If V thought the only risk was their absence, then they'll stay with the party because worst case - no harm would be done, just no help.

So if the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince the elf of it whether or not it's true.

[Envyus]

I just assume the simplest version of things barring more advanced things being stated as the case.

I don’t think Calder is anything more than a Dragon of advanced age.

[Riftwolf]

Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How? :smallconfused:

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated. Another thread had people saying "Temporal Stasis doesn't work like that" to my guess Calder was conscious while frozen. Which, if you think about it, is a terrible imprisonment.

The IFCC stuff was a guess that was absolutely baseless

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated. My confused condition is now removed. :smallsmile:

[Tzaot]

I just registered on the forum to say that I absolutely adore Ladder-Girl / Mimi.

I hope she stays around for a long time, or has different cameos. :)

[HorizonWalker]

I threw out a theory on that several pages ago, but I'll kick it up again here too: because otherwise V wouldn't stay with the party.

The terms of the deal specified nothing about who was allowed to do what with V's body while it was un-ensouled, but if V thought it could be puppeted against their friends they might not stay with the party because they'd be too much of a risk. If V thought the only risk was their absence, then they'll stay with the party because worst case - no harm would be done, just no help.

So if the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince the elf of it whether or not it's true.
I'm aware of the theory you advanced, and I was in fact responding to it with my answer to that question. I do not think your theory is correct; the deal said nothing about what could be done to V's body, and because Vaarsuvius did not agree to let the Fiends have their body for any length of time, then the Fiends don't get it. I think it's pretty reasonable to argue that, in this context where they can only intervene where technically invited to do so, Fiends are not allowed to put different souls in a mortal's body without that mortal's permission, and in order to take advantage of any hypothetical 'third party' loophole, a third party who possesses V's body is going to have to actually be a third party who are not working at the instigation of the IFCC.

I think we can trust the Fiends when they say that, no, they genuinely aren't allowed to use V's body for anything, because that was not one of the terms of the agreement. And I think we can trust them when they say that, partly because, again, lying about the terms of your verbal agreement to the other party means you don't meaningfully have a verbal agreement, and partly because I think it makes perfect sense for them to pretend they're being perfectly reasonable good-faith actors, since that is 1) their characterization so far, and 2) an excellent way to twist the knife while dealing with Vaarsuvius.

And, well... At a certain point, we have to accept that the characters in a story know what they're talking about when they say stuff. Even when it's devils talking- after all, devils being unable or unwilling to say things that are outright not true is a very common trope throughout fiction and folklore, and I see no evidence that OOTS is bucking that particular trope.

[brian 333]

... Fiends are not allowed to put different souls in a mortal's body without that mortal's permission,...

Possession does not have to be voluntary. Demons have a whole thing with that, unless movies like The Exorcist have lead me astray.

[HorizonWalker]

I don't believe that the "possessed unwillingly by a demon" trope and the "I've signed an ill-advised contract with The Devil" trope tend to show up in the same stories. Nonetheless, if the Fiends were allowed to put souls in any mortal's body without permission, they likely wouldn't be screwing around with this contract stuff. They'd be doing that instead; it'd be way easier.

In the meantime, the Fiends' specific consideration in that contract is quite explicit: they each get to hold onto V's soul for a specific period of time. They may have mislead V about when they'd lay claim, but laying claim to V's soul for the specified time periods is, ultimately, the only thing they legally get out of that contract. They don't get to tack on additional riders after the fact.

[LadyEowyn]

Regarding V’s soul, the key question is: how does Rich keep it narratively interesting? Everyone (not just us the readers, but characters like Roy) are already expecting V to be taken out of the action again. Rich tends to avoid doing something that plays out in the obvious and predictable way. So what’s the twist? I tend to agree that it won’t be putting another soul in V’s body, but it also won’t be just the same thing we saw before. Is there something else they can do with V’s soul while they have possession of it?

[danielxcutter]

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated. Another thread had people saying "Temporal Stasis doesn't work like that" to my guess Calder was conscious while frozen. Which, if you think about it, is a terrible imprisonment.

Yeah I’m willing to cut Serini some slack given how it was entirely unintended and Calder being the Evil bastard he is, but even so that’s still a horrible fate to inflict on anyone, even by accident and even on someone like Calder.

[Throknor]

Aside: Since you brought up gravity and normal expectations related to it, I assume there must be a rules-specific solution to how Calder is able to hover. Did Calder cast levitate or fly? Perhaps has taken the Hover feat? Isn't this a far more fundamental question than how a spell effect was depicted?

He's almost certainly flying just like Blackwing and the Empress of Blood. The downward thrusts just happen between panels. Looking again at 1297 the wings do, in fact, move between panels one and five. The only reason the dragon skeleton's wings made noise was the foreshadowing aspect. They did flap up and down every panel while Roy and Xykon were chatting but that may just have been since the focus was on them for a lot of panels.

[brian 333]

I don't believe that the "possessed unwillingly by a demon" trope and the "I've signed an ill-advised contract with The Devil" trope tend to show up in the same stories. Nonetheless, if the Fiends were allowed to put souls in any mortal's body without permission, they likely wouldn't be screwing around with this contract stuff. They'd be doing that instead; it'd be way easier.

In the meantime, the Fiends' specific consideration in that contract is quite explicit: they each get to hold onto V's soul for a specific period of time. They may have mislead V about when they'd lay claim, but laying claim to V's soul for the specified time periods is, ultimately, the only thing they legally get out of that contract. They don't get to tack on additional riders after the fact.

I do not disagree with this. I was disagreeing with the absolutism of

... Fiends are not allowed to put different souls in a mortal's body without that mortal's permission,...

Lee is obligated to honor the letter of the contract. Cedrik could do whatever he wanted if
A: he thinks he can get away with it,
B: he thinks he will benefit from it,
C: he feels like it,
D: and/or uncounted other reasons which may or may not make sense to us.

I don't think it is probable, given what he has to lose, but that is seldom a major consideration from a Chaotic PoV.

[Mic_128]

Lee is obligated to honor the letter of the contract. Cedrik could do whatever he wanted

And Nero keeps the trio united and working together. No doubt that would include stopping the chaotic one from messing up plans and breaking contracts they don't want broken.

[Liquor Box]

I mean yeah, that's why they've put up Mass Resist Fire and gotten healing. That second one is going to be doing a lot less damage, due to Durkon having a high enough caster level for Mass Resist Fire to reduce fire damage by 30. Serini also probably has a pretty deep health pool due to sheer amount of levels even with age penalties to Constitution. In contrast, Polar Ray is doing cold damage, which V wouldn't have protected against, and also is a ray spell that doesn't allow a saving throw to reduce damage.

Even with mass resist fire of 30, the average damage would be more than the polar ray. It may be that he is a mature adult dragon (or younger) and his breath weapon is less (although then his CR may be too low for the Order).

[danielxcutter]

Or Mimi's been making her saves and Serini has Improved Evasion or something.

[H_H_F_F]

I just assume the simplest version of things barring more advanced things being stated as the case.

I don’t think Calder is anything more than a Dragon of advanced age.

Off the top of my head, I can't think on how a dragon of advanced age would achieve this with only feats. Shedu crown bound to an opened crown chakra? That'd have a visual effect that we're not seeing. Same for soulspeaker circlet.

I empathize with assuming the simplest version - but the simplest version has to explain the evidence. "Roy's sword isn't magical" is a very simple explanation, until it isn't.

[Ruck]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.


I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

I know these are days old, but this was the way to introduce my thoughts on the IFCC/V discussion that's been taking place.

I believe Peelee is referring to the Giant's comment here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?437655-Why-are-10-million-dwarf-souls-even-important&p=19745426#post19745426):


at a certain point you have to understand that the only way for me to communicate non-visual information to you in the strip is through dialogue.

And I tend to agree with him in his interpretation. Which is to say, it's certainly conceivable the IFCC would lie, but I more find myself thinking, how else would Rich let the readers know what exactly the terms of use on V's deal with the IFCC are if not through the IFCC?

[Precure]

Still, they somehow protected and moved V's body from underground to the surface. This involve some sort of control, even if they didn't personally put a soul in them

[danielxcutter]

I think the explosion just yeeted their body there.

[Kish]

I know these are days old, but this was the way to introduce my thoughts on the IFCC/V discussion that's been taking place.

I believe Peelee is referring to the Giant's comment here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?437655-Why-are-10-million-dwarf-souls-even-important&p=19745426#post19745426):



And I tend to agree with him in his interpretation. Which is to say, it's certainly conceivable the IFCC would lie, but I more find myself thinking, how else would Rich let the readers know what exactly the terms of use on V's deal with the IFCC are if not through the IFCC?
"If not through the IFCC" is the wrong question.

"If not through having a member of the IFCC make that claim to Vaarsuvius, the person they've previously lied to repeatedly, but this time the people treating that as 'Rich said it' are right, how?" is, and the answer is, "The same way he did with the lies 'You just happened to come along when we wanted a proof of concept,' and 'This elaborate scheme involving Aarindarius and suicide would save your family': interactions with Qarr. Or Sabine would work. Or anyone they don't have an incentive to lie to and haven't lied to repeatedly in the past."

[danielxcutter]

I don't exactly think that the moral of the story is going to be "V's very existence in the party after taking the deal was a net negative and it would have been better if they'd killed themselves immediately," for what it's worth.