Why PDFs?!

[JusticeZero]

Been looking at getting another game system, I've been interested in trying out a new minimalist system.
They all come packaged as either a physical book (and I've lost too many of those over various moves and such already) or .PDF files.

PDF files are basically unreadable without an annoying amount of effort. I have to zoom them in and scroll them this way and that to read them. Whyyyy can we not get game systems in reflowable epub files? I can get my textbooks that way, I read all my books that way, augh...

[Mastikator]

It's just an industry standard. But I get your frustration, pdfs suck.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Formatting, probably. You can print directly from a pdf because it's the exact page layout, but making an epub would mean an entirely separate round of layout and proofing.

[Cluedrew]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

[truemane]

As others have said, I would think the cost and time and effort of converting a rulebook to epub format would be very high. It would be a logistical nightmare trying to lay out the text and tables and charts in such a way that it would on all possible devices, with all possible settings. I read epubs on my phone, my Kobo, and my tablet. And that works because it's all just text.

Whereas PDF's all look roughly the same no matter the device or the application (both for weal and woe).

Although, that being said, I share your frustration with trying to read PDF's. I love using them as a supplement to the actual book, but on their own, they're a pain.

[LibraryOgre]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

Partially this, yeah. If you want a sidebar or boxed-text, PDFs handle those better. They also tend to do better with tables.

And, well, you can lay out a book for print and use pretty much the same thing for PDF, or vice versa.

[King of Nowhere]

i like pdf. never got into the various other formats, and don't understand what problems others have with it.

maybe i'm old generation and pdf is the one most behaving like a normal paper book?

[JusticeZero]

I'm old generation. I need my text size a little bit larger these days. Epub is older than PDF, as I recall. It's closer to a readme file like I would read back when I was dealing with MS-DOS whatsits. My textbook has tables imbedded in it, they're saved as pictures.
I've been playing mostly things with an SRD I can access on the web for the past few years, but they sometimes overformat the base page.

[Maat Mons]

Tables saved as pictures? But then you can't find things in them with Ctrl+F!

[LibraryOgre]

I'm old generation. I need my text size a little bit larger these days. Epub is older than PDF, as I recall. It's closer to a readme file like I would read back when I was dealing with MS-DOS whatsits. My textbook has tables imbedded in it, they're saved as pictures.
I've been playing mostly things with an SRD I can access on the web for the past few years, but they sometimes overformat the base page.

For age of format, it depends. EPub is only from 2007; it's predecessor is from 1999. PDFs, OTOH, first came out in 1992. EPub does draw on the same dynamic text scaling that you see in TrueType fonts from the late 80s, though.

[ngilop]

Been looking at getting another game system, I've been interested in trying out a new minimalist system.
They all come packaged as either a physical book (and I've lost too many of those over various moves and such already) or .PDF files.

PDF files are basically unreadable without an annoying amount of effort. I have to zoom them in and scroll them this way and that to read them. Whyyyy can we not get game systems in reflowable epub files? I can get my textbooks that way, I read all my books that way, augh...

You and I have much, much different experiences with PDFs.

Every single one I have is highly readable and i have over 2 thousand. Maybe you just need a bigger screen? a screen that isn't borken?

Like i honestly have no idea what is going on that you find them un readable.. are you trying to open them not in a PDF reader like Adobe Acrobat, Sumatra, or Kofax?

[JusticeZero]

Like i honestly have no idea what is going on that you find them un readable..

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

[Gnoman]

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

Why do you have so many toolbars? My PDF reader has none of that.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why do you have so many toolbars? My PDF reader has none of that.

Seconding this, and I even reverted to an older layout because an update changed the background colour to white. Still got at minimum two third of the screen, maybe three quarters, with most toolbars at the side.

Not that some games don't also have .epub or .mobi versions, IIRC Evil Hat does them for major releases. It's just less common, at least partially due to the loss of formatting.

But yes, PDFs are annoying when you have bad eyes. After glasses stopped working but before I moved to contacts I was almost entirely physical for that exact reason.

[RedWarlock]

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

Yeah, that's more a problem of whatever reader you're using. Usually you can reconfigure the UI to be more minimal, or there may be a full-screen view.

[Jay R]

Take the pdf to a print shop, and come home with a booklet.

[Anonymouswizard]

Take the pdf to a print shop, and come home with a booklet.

I'd recommend checking the terms before doing any of this. Some companies and creators are fine with you doing this, others aren't. Evil Hat even includes a note in their books that yes making a copy at a print shop is 100% okay and this is express permission.

[Trafalgar]

I'd recommend checking the terms before doing any of this. Some companies and creators are fine with you doing this, others aren't. Evil Hat even includes a note in their books that yes making a copy at a print shop is 100% okay and this is express permission.

If you legally bought the pdf, you can print it for personal use. Just like you can copy a book you own without permission from the writer or publisher.

What you can't do is print 100 copies and sell them.

[Leon]

But yes, PDFs are annoying when you have bad eyes. After glasses stopped working but before I moved to contacts I was almost entirely physical for that exact reason.

If you have trouble reading a pdf your going to have the same troublewith any other digital format

[JusticeZero]

If you have trouble reading a pdf your going to have the same troublewith any other digital format

With an ebook format, I can zoom in and the text reflows to fit the new text to page size. I can make the words big and easy to read and not have to slide around on the page like I was exploring a roguelike dungeon with an Etch-a-Sketch.

[Xervous]

Most web browsers have built in functionality for viewing PDFs. At a glance even the accused Edge has minimal bloat by default and offers a full screen view bereft of toolbars.

[Easy e]

Because they are cheap and easy to produce, and ubiquitous enough where everyone has the software to read them.

[Maat Mons]

Have you tried running Magnifier in lens view? I played around with it a bit after reading this, and it seems pretty workable. The other view modes just seem annoying though.

Edit: If you're not familiar, hold the Windows key and press the + key to turn Magnifier on. Hold both Ctrl and Alt and press the L key to change to lens mode. Hold the Windows key and press Esc to turn Magnifier off.

[ngilop]

So, it sounds less of a "PDF" issue and more of user issue with the user having every conceivable window and toolbar open as possible.


Sounds like my friend, years, ago that was compkaong about a FPSish we played and how he couldn't see what was happening due to the UI, being in the way.. he had every ability bar open, every separate chat box open, both maps open, and a few other random screens that took up 3/4 of the screen. A simple un selecting those windows fixed his complaints.

[Melayl]

I read mine on a tablet or my phone through Acrobat. I can zoom in ridiculously close, up to one letter filling the screen, and easily navigate the entire pdf...

[Bohandas]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

That was my initial thought as well, but then they said their textbooks were in epub and worked, and textbooks have a lot of illustrations and diagrams too

[Jason]

Play with the toolbar settings and you can remove most of them. And there are options for viewing the width of the page or the whole page that can make it easier.

I always buy hard copies of the main rulebooks of systems because I find the hardcopy books easier to deal with while running a game, but I find that running an adventure from a .pdf on a laptop isn't all that tough and is generally cheaper than buying hardcopies, though I still print off maps and the like for quick reference.

[JusticeZero]

I was reading a game on a PDF yesterday in fullscreen on a laptop. It still was miserable, I wanted to tweak the font.

[Anxe]

That was my initial thought as well, but then they said their textbooks were in epub and worked, and textbooks have a lot of illustrations and diagrams too

Its a different standard. Textbooks are used by public universities so they have to follow the ADA. They have to come up with versions that are more accessible to blind students. Additionally textbooks cost $300+. An epub is possible for RPGs, but it's not worth the expense since it's not legally required.

I agree that pdfs are a pain to read on my pocket Kindle. But it's got a tiny 3"x5" screen that's not as responsive as other modern tech. Every other device, even my smaller smartphone, is easy to read pdfs because I can zoom in and out as needed or change the viewing frame by turning my phone sideways.

[SpyOne]

If you legally bought the pdf, you can print it for personal use. Just like you can copy a book you own without permission from the writer or publisher.

What you can't do is print 100 copies and sell them.
I believe, technically, you cannot use two copies at once.
So you can (and I have) photocopy an entire book to mark it with highlighter and rearrange the pages and put the original in storage. But if you sell your original you either give your copy to the buyer or destroy it.
Which works fine for me: I generally print the PDF once and use the printed copy, while the electronic copy is stored.

But in the "everything's legal if there's no cops around" vein passing a few pages around to folks at the same table probably isn't going to get the attention of the owners of the copyright you are infringing and probably won't offend them even if they find out. But know that defending their copyright might mean that they have to sue you even if they aren't mad about what you did.

[Endless Rain]

But know that defending their copyright might mean that they have to sue you even if they aren't mad about what you did.

This isn't actually the case; you're thinking of trademark law. They can sue you if they don't like you, but it's not a legal requirement and they'll keep the copyright no matter how little they enforce it. Trademarks (i.e. their brand or company name) are the things that can be lost if left unenforced.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Ogre: Please remember to not talk about legal issues. Even if you are their lawyer, you likely are not their lawyer, and this is not the venue for soliciting or giving legal advice.

[gbaji]

If you have a ton of toolbars at the top and bottom, that's something you configured (or was configured) into the pdf reader software you are using. By default, I think there should be like one bar across the top. You can also open or close a panel on the left, which usually has chapter headings or thumbnails and whatnot).

PDF is used because it's a well established standard, every computer system an end user is likely to be using can read it, and it has some very useful features for publishing (like flagging as read only content, embedded virtual watermarks, etc).

The reader itself is very customizable, so if you are having problems reading content with it, try playing around with the settings on your viewer. It's not a function of the format itself. And yes. I've run into some very crappy pdf viewers from time to time. Again though, that's the client software you loaded on your computer, not the format the file is in.

[Ionathus]

I'm aware of the disdain for PDFs and most of the arguments make sense to me.

But I still haven't seen an argument that addresses the main value I find in PDFs: a way to consistently ensure that the thing you put together can't lose its formatting, can't be edited, can't get mucked up by a software difference, and can be printed easily.

When I send somebody a PDF, I know what it will look like to them. When I print a PDF, I know what it will look like. I spent years getting burned by the terrible layout changes that happen when you and your recipient have different versions of Word, and years of my printers garbling the contents of a document. PDF maintains the "look" without hurting the crispness of the text & graphics.

Is there a newer format that can do that? I feel like I've researched "PDF replacement" several times and every option has been, like, "put all of your documents on a webpage/in HTML/in something like EPUB, which doesn't print easily!" which is not a solution to the problems I'm trying to use PDFs for.

Or, conversely, maybe printing and formatting technology has improved and I don't need to worry about safeguarding my documents from getting garbled anymore. I just kind of feel like there are more competing standards these days, between Google Docs and Microsoft Word and OpenOffice, as an example. But maybe technology has made compatibility much more widespread and PDFs are a protection I can relinquish.

[Vogie]

I'm in the same boat - I dislike the PDF format, but for a tangential reason. I dislike the over-formatting of source books - things like Columns make sense when you have giant pages, but the amount of sidebars, cascading notes, footnotes and self-referencing is just a giant headache. I prefer gamebooks the size of Blades in the Dark, Torchbearer, or the Pathfinder Pocket editions because the information is given more of a sensical layout.

At the same time, I do wish I could keep something on my Kindle for referencing it. But that would require a lot of copying and dumping it in a file that can be sent in, and that'll be a ton of work.

[gbaji]

But I still haven't seen an argument that addresses the main value I find in PDFs: a way to consistently ensure that the thing you put together can't lose its formatting, be edited, get mucked up by a software difference, and can be printed easily.

Yup, yup, and yup. So much so that it's possible to be burned by it though, if the publisher isn't thinking things though. Like by releasing technical documents in a font that doesn't exist on the systems they sell (yeah, that happened). But yeah, baring poor choices like that, it's generally a very very good format for electronic documents.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Its a different standard. Textbooks are used by public universities so they have to follow the ADA. They have to come up with versions that are more accessible to blind students. Additionally textbooks cost $300+. An epub is possible for RPGs, but it's not worth the expense since it's not legally required.

I agree that pdfs are a pain to read on my pocket Kindle. But it's got a tiny 3"x5" screen that's not as responsive as other modern tech. Every other device, even my smaller smartphone, is easy to read pdfs because I can zoom in and out as needed or change the viewing frame by turning my phone sideways.
Also, many textbooks don't rely heavily on illustrations to get their point across, and the ebook format will usually just dump the relevant image in the middle of the text flow, when needed. Textbooks, when they use images, only use them as "image here alongside text", which is much easier to implement than RPGs that have art as layout elements and illustration.

Which is why you'd have to redo the whole thing for an ebook format. And then redo it for all the major ebook formats, because some people are on Kindle, some are on Nook, some are on completely different devices.

The advantage of PDF from a publishing standpoint is that it's a one-stop shop for creating something that can be opened by basically every technological reader, and that's especially appealing for designers releasing smaller things for free or low cost.

[137beth]

I was reading a game on a PDF yesterday in fullscreen on a laptop. It still was miserable, I wanted to tweak the font.

What PDF reader are you using on your laptop? There are a lot of different PDF reading programs and they are not all the same.

[Rockphed]

I'm aware of the disdain for PDFs and most of the arguments make sense to me.

But I still haven't seen an argument that addresses the main value I find in PDFs: a way to consistently ensure that the thing you put together can't lose its formatting, can't be edited, can't get mucked up by a software difference, and can be printed easily.

When I send somebody a PDF, I know what it will look like to them. When I print a PDF, I know what it will look like. I spent years getting burned by the terrible layout changes that happen when you and your recipient have different versions of Word, and years of my printers garbling the contents of a document. PDF maintains the "look" without hurting the crispness of the text & graphics.

Is there a newer format that can do that? I feel like I've researched "PDF replacement" several times and every option has been, like, "put all of your documents on a webpage/in HTML/in something like EPUB, which doesn't print easily!" which is not a solution to the problems I'm trying to use PDFs for.

Or, conversely, maybe printing and formatting technology has improved and I don't need to worry about safeguarding my documents from getting garbled anymore. I just kind of feel like there are more competing standards these days, between Google Docs and Microsoft Word and OpenOffice, as an example. But maybe technology has made compatibility much more widespread and PDFs are a protection I can relinquish.

It is possible to make PDFs that contain all the fonts and images they are using, but it is also possible to create PDFs that do not. At work I have some circuit schematics that got saved as PDFs. One of the places they were saved they have nice images for all the components while in another place half the components are shown as a box with an asterisk.

To be clear, PDF is one of the worst formats for a circuit schematic because I cannot edit them easily. I can add annotations, but when I find places where it is wrong I have to go create a whole new schematic.

[JusticeZero]

What PDF reader are you using on your laptop? There are a lot of different PDF reading programs and they are not all the same.
Adobe Acrobat Reader.

[Gnoman]

Of all the options to read PDFs, that's pretty much the worst. Try any of the many free alternatives - I use Foxit.

[137beth]

Yeah, if you dislike having lots of menu and title bars taking up space, Adobe Reader is a bad choice. If you're on Windows 10-11, you could try Okular (https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/9N41MSQ1WNM8?rtc=1&hl=en-us&gl=US). I'm not sure about MacOS since I've never had a Mac.

[Telwar]

I generally open mine with Edge.

Generally I prefer physical media, but I gained a new appreciation for PDFs after pulling a muscle in my back lifting a backpack full of Shadowrun books lol.

And now that I'm running a PF2 game, it's a lot easier to have the AP document up on one screen and the VTT on another.

[Ionathus]

It is possible to make PDFs that contain all the fonts and images they are using, but it is also possible to create PDFs that do not. At work I have some circuit schematics that got saved as PDFs. One of the places they were saved they have nice images for all the components while in another place half the components are shown as a box with an asterisk.

To be clear, PDF is one of the worst formats for a circuit schematic because I cannot edit them easily. I can add annotations, but when I find places where it is wrong I have to go create a whole new schematic.

Ok, that makes a lot of sense when you're talking about technical schematics. I can see why it would be a frustrating format for that situation.

So would you say the hate for PDFs is because they're overused in situations where they aren't the best choice? But there are still use cases (like saving a single page of text/simple graphics for printing or digital sharing) that the PDF does bets?

[Lucas Yew]

I prefer PDFs over EPUB, but it's more like I balk at the latter's unique monoploy in my home country.

...Where all published EPUB based ebooks have nasty tablet/app exclusive DRMs that turn the files into unreadable disk volume junk once their publisher goes out of business. It's so, so, so disheartening each time such an event happens...

[Mutazoia]

Ok, that makes a lot of sense when you're talking about technical schematics. I can see why it would be a frustrating format for that situation.

So would you say the hate for PDFs is because they're overused in situations where they aren't the best choice? But there are still use cases (like saving a single page of text/simple graphics for printing or digital sharing) that the PDF does bets?

Well, as someone who works in the print industry, I'll say that we normally recommend PDF files for printing as it does lock in your formatting and font choices. A lot of people like to use non-standard fonts and if your local print shack doesn't have that font, they usually can't install it just to run your stuff. Either because a lot of fonts are licensed and we can't go buying a license just for a one-off print job, or because the ability to install software and fonts has been disabled by an IT department.

Every file we print at work gets converted into a PDF before it's sent over to the printers. The only real problem we have is when people save a Photoshop (or other like program) file as a PDF without flattening the layers first, and end up with a 2 gig, one-page PDF...nothing like waiting 5 minutes for a 2 page flyer to spool over to the printer :smallmad: A PDF should be a small, easily shared file. Not some monolith that begs to have Neanderthals crouching around it while Zarathustra plays in the background.

On a side note, PDF's can be easily edited if you have the full version of Acrobat (at least the text can...images can be moved) unless they have been password protected.

When it comes to viewing, most PDF readers, Adobe included, have a reading mode that gives you a full-screen view without any toolbars. I would look for that.

As for taking your PDF to a local printer... To be honest, we really don't care what you're printing. I think all but the local mom-and-pop shops have a disclaimer in place that absolves us from any liability for what you decide to have printed and we're not going to hop on the phone and narc you out to someone's lawyers...we're too busy for that crap. You can even get us to spiral-bind it for you. I can't count the number of times someone's come in and printed off a Pathfinder PDF. One girl even set up the file to include tabs for the chapters.