Comparing player level and monster level

[Alexander Atoz]

This is something that I've been contemplating a while, and I want to see what other people think.

I've been trying to work out the relationship between monster level and player level. My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.
That wasn't clear at all, so let's give examples.
A CR 6 monster is worth 2,300 XP. Based on my theory, a level six PC should be worth half that, or 1,150 XP, and be approx. equal to a CR 4 monster. (CR 4 = 11,000 XP). Similarly, a level 9 monster is worth 5,000 XP, so if my rule holds true a level 9 PC is equal to (or a bit stronger than) a level 6 monster. (5,000/2 = 2,500. CR 6 = 2,300).
Obviously, I'm talking about an ordinary build. If someone used multiclassing to build something incredibly strong or weak, that will throw off this rating. Also, in a fight it is often the case that a specific monster happens too be optimized against any one specific PC, or vice versa. Terrain, surprise, and everything else can also throw stuff off.
I will also mention that my rule isn't meant to include CR's above 20, as the XP there gets kind of crazy. (According strictly to the XP, a tarrasque should be equal to six CR 20 monsters, or to four if he fights them at once and you add the multiplier for groups. I really don't think that is the case. My best guess for monsters above CR 20 is that you should halve all XP above 20, at which point the tarrasque would be worth 85,000 XP. That sounds about right, but all this is another story.)

[Unoriginal]

This is something that I've been contemplating a while, and I want to see what other people think.

I've been trying to work out the relationship between monster level and player level. My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.
That wasn't clear at all, so let's give examples.
A CR 6 monster is worth 2,300 XP. Based on my theory, a level six PC should be worth half that, or 1,150 XP, and be approx. equal to a CR 4 monster. (CR 4 = 11,000 XP). Similarly, a level 9 monster is worth 5,000 XP, so if my rule holds true a level 9 PC is equal to (or a bit stronger than) a level 6 monster. (5,000/2 = 2,500. CR 6 = 2,300).
Obviously, I'm talking about an ordinary build. If someone used multiclassing to build something incredibly strong or weak, that will throw off this rating. Also, in a fight it is often the case that a specific monster happens too be optimized against any one specific PC, or vice versa. Terrain, surprise, and everything else can also throw stuff off.
I will also mention that my rule isn't meant to include CR's above 20, as the XP there gets kind of crazy. (According strictly to the XP, a tarrasque should be equal to six CR 20 monsters, or to four if he fights them at once and you add the multiplier for groups. I really don't think that is the case. My best guess for monsters above CR 20 is that you should halve all XP above 20, at which point the tarrasque would be worth 85,000 XP. That sounds about right, but all this is another story.)

Your title is confusing, because "monster level" and "monster CR" means different things.

Now, to answer your question, it's been long established (by comparing many examples) that a PC level is equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common.

PCs generally have a larger toolbox and quite often a better stat array too, but most NPCs can endure better.

So a CR 1/4 NPC is about as tough as a lvl 1 PC.

XPs have no bearing in any of this.

[Alexander Atoz]

There is no way in the world that a CR 1 monster is a match for a level 4 PC. (Or any other division of 4.)
I'm not after the official equivalent (which I didn't know existed), I'm trying to define what is actually equilvalent.
(As an aside, what is monster level?)

[Unoriginal]

There is no way in the world that a CR 1 monster is a match for a level 4 PC.

Provide the stats for a lvl 4 PC, and we shall see.



(Or any other division of 4.)

Your hyperbole is noted.



I'm not after the official equivalent (which I didn't know existed), I'm trying to define what is actually equilvalent.

There is no "official equivalent". This is the actual equivalent, as calculated by the 5e community.



(As an aside, what is monster level?)

When you give class levels to a monster. Like the Gnoll Barbarian example in the DMG.

EDIT:

If anyone else wishes to propose a 4th lvl character for comparison, you're welcome to do so.

[Alexander Atoz]

CR 1 Bugbear (chosen for being a humanoid) + 4 to hit, 11 damage, 16 AC, 27 HP. (+ 7 damage on a suprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 4. (Chosen for simplicity.) + 6 to hit, 29 HP with + 1 CON (which is low.) With a shield, he has at least 17 AC, and does 9.5 damage. Without a shield, he has 15 AC, and does 11 damage. Note that I'm counting his DEX modifier as 0, which is unlikely.
He's already ahead of the bugbear in 2-3 areas, and behind in at most 1. I haven't even added in fighting style, second wind, action surge, and subclass abilities. All of them are very significant, except second wind. Why do you think the bugbear is equal to him?

The bugbear chieftain is CR 3, which meant that by your calculation he is equal to a level 12 fighter. (Or other PC). Calculation will show that it's even worse.
CR 3 Bugbear chieftain. +5 To hit, 12 damage, 2 attacks, 17 AC, 65 HP. (+ 7 damage on a surprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 12. + 9 to hit, 70 HP with no CON bonus. With shield, 20 AC, 9.5 damage, 3 attacks. Without shield, 18 AC, 11 damage, 3 Attacks. Leaving out the same things as last time, plus feats. Subclass abilities are even more relevant now. Again, Why do you think the bugbear (chieftain) is equal to him?

More basically, if a CR 3 is equal to a level 12 PC, than 4 CR 3 monsters should have an even chance of defeating a four player level 12 party. Do you really think so? I think the level 12 party will destroy them in 1-2 rounds, and won't consider them worth spending high level spell slots or other limited-use abilities on.

Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

[JayDomK]

Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

In that case, all groups would have to be 4 persons each, and that wouldn't be very convenient, would it?

[Derges]

a PC level is equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common.

He quite clearly said between 1/2 and 1/5 with 1/4 being common.

I don't think those numbers are so far out to say the entire range is wrong, more that the bugbear isn't average.

The bugbear is an ambush monster by design. It's supposed to drop 18 damage on a target in the surprise round. That's more than half the fighters' HP and very close to dropping most other classes.

[Unoriginal]

CR 1 Bugbear (chosen for being a humanoid) + 4 to hit, 11 damage, 16 AC, 27 HP. (+ 7 damage on a suprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 4. (Chosen for simplicity.) + 6 to hit, 29 HP with + 1 CON (which is low.) With a shield, he has at least 17 AC, and does 9.5 damage. Without a shield, he has 15 AC, and does 11 damage. Note that I'm counting his DEX modifier as 0, which is unlikely.
He's already ahead of the bugbear in 2-3 areas, and behind in at most 1. I haven't even added in fighting style, second wind, action surge, and subclass abilities. All of them are very significant, except second wind. Why do you think the bugbear is equal to him?

1) As noted by Derges, the claim was never that all CR 1 monsters were equal in every way to all lvl 4 PCs.

The claim is that, and I quote, a PC level is "equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common."

Meaning that the Bugbear as presented fits the claim.

2) Fighters are masters at straightforward fighting, while Bugbears, also as noted by Derges, prefer to attack from stealth and aren't as tough in an open brawl, even if they can still contribute.

Now compare the Bugbear to a lvl 4 Rogue, assuming they started at 16 DEX and used their ASI for DEX too:

To hit +6, 8.5 average damage without Sneak Attack and 14.5 with = 11.5 average damage, AC 16, HP 27 (if CON +1, like your Fighter).

Chances to hit aside, the two are fairly equivalent, before the Rogue's subclass gets factored in.

3) Now let's compare the Figher to a NPC who similarly shines best in a straightforward combat, limiting ourselves to humanoid only, even:

Lizardfolk Scaleshield:

To hit +4 with two attacks, 6 damage on the first and 5 damage on the second, AC 16 and HPs 32.

Which is pretty equivalent to the Fighter you presented, even if not equal in every way.

4) Having 18 in your main stat at lvl 4 is certainly possible, but it isn't an universal expectation either. Plenty of PCs prefer taking feats, for example, or boost another ability score.

5) Using the "average damage" in the monster statblock is meant to advantage the PCs fighting them, as the 2d8+2 of a Bugbear's Morningstar could easily put a lvl 1 PC from full health to death saves, with a bit of bad luck.



I was incorrect on one thing, though: monsters tend to have less health, compared to PCs whose levels are 4 times their CR.



The bugbear chieftain is CR 3, which meant that by your calculation he is equal to a level 12 fighter. (Or other PC). Calculation will show that it's even worse.
CR 3 Bugbear chieftain. +5 To hit, 12 damage, 2 attacks, 17 AC, 65 HP. (+ 7 damage on a surprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 12. + 9 to hit, 70 HP with no CON bonus. With shield, 20 AC, 9.5 damage, 3 attacks. Without shield, 18 AC, 11 damage, 3 Attacks. Leaving out the same things as last time, plus feats. Subclass abilities are even more relevant now.

Rogue, level 12. +9 to hit, 9.5 average damage without Sneak Attack and 30.5 with = 20 average damage, one attack. AC 17, 63 HP with no CON bonus.



More basically, if a CR 3 is equal to a level 12 PC, than 4 CR 3 monsters should have an even chance of defeating a four player level 12 party. Do you really think so?

No, but it's because because group vs group affects the conditions pretty significantly, and PCs have a bunch of advantages over NPCs usually (ex: death saves vs instant death)



Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

That is not the logic, no.


Check the DMG, more precisely the "Creating a Monster" section of the Dungeon Master's Workshop chapter:


Offensive Challenge Rating. Read down the Damage/Round column of the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table until you find your monster's damage output per round. Then look across and note the challenge rating suggested for a monster that deals that much damage.

Now look at the attack bonus suggested for a monster of that challenge rating. If your monster's attack bonus is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its damage output up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference.


The Fighter you proposed deals between 9.5 and 11 damage, aka damage fit for a CR 1 monster. Their to-hit is +6, or 3 points above the suggested to-hit, meaning they end up with Offensive CR 2.


Defensive Challenge Rating. Read down the Hit Points column of the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table until you find your monster's hit points. Then look across and note the challenge rating suggested for a monster with those hit points.

Now look at the Armor Class suggested for a monster of that challenge rating. If your monster's AC is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its hit points up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference.

Your Fighter has 29 HP, placing them in CR 1/8. The suggested AC for that CR is 13, meaning that there is 4 points of difference between the Fighter and the suggestion, so they end up with Defensive CR 1/2.


Average Challenge Rating. The monster's final challenge rating is the average of its defensive and offensive challenge ratings. Round the average up or down to the nearest challenge rating to determine your monster's final challenge rating. For example, if the creature's defensive challenge rating is 2 and its offensive rating is 3, its final rating is 3.

(3+0.5)2= 1.75 = CR 2 for 4 lvl, which fits within the claim "between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR".

[Amechra]

I mean, the problem with trying to draw a comparison this way is that monsters and PCs are designed in very different ways. Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

[Unoriginal]

In that case, all groups would have to be 4 persons each, and that wouldn't be very convenient, would it?

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5. However, that's because the 5e mechanics gives a lot of perks to the side with the higher number of combatants.


Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

True when one compare a PC of lvl X with a creature of CR X. Because as mentioned above CR X means being able to face a group of lvl X and still be able to show their stuff a bit.



Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

That is inaccurate.

A lvl 5 Fighter with 14 CON will have 44 HPs if they don't roll the die, with Second Wind adding 10.5 HP on average.

Even 44 HPs is low for the expected HPs of a CR 3 creature, to say nothing of a CR4 or CR 5 one. 54.5 HPs is about the kind of HPs you can see in the CR 3 range (ex: a Knight NPC has 52), but still far from the CR 5 range (ex: the Gladiator has 112 HPs).

Even the Eldritch Knight's impressive max AC wouldn't close that gap.

[GeneralVryth]

I think it goes without saying that any PC Level to CR conversion is going to be fuzzy at best because of the wide variation in optimization for both PCs and monsters for a given level/CR.

I think the real question in this thread is whether the relationship between PC Level and CR more is multiplicative (the 1/5 to 1/2 PC level conversion mentioned above) or more additive by CR steps (which I think is how the OP would work out if you removed exp from the equation). In the additive process it's best to think in CR steps at the low level. For example I would guess that a PC's CR may be closer to PC level = CR minus 3 to 5 steps. So for example a level 3 PC would probably have a CR between 1/2 and 1/8 (1/2 is 3 steps below CR 3, while 1/8 is 5 steps below CR 3).

The difference would be mostly visible at very high PC levels. Is a level 18 PC with all of their abilities (and gear) closer to CR 9 (or CR 4 if you use 1/5 instead of 1/2) or CR 13 to 15? I don't know, and I don't have time atm to do the math (I may check back later and do it then), but it is an interesting thought.

[Amechra]

That is inaccurate.

I mean, I was literally just reporting the CR numbers I got when I punched the 5th level Fighter's AC, HP (+ the ~10.5 healing the Second Wind), damage, and to-hit chance into this calculator (https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html#0,19,21,7,false,Medium,12,10,fal se,0,false,0,)...

(Here (https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html#0,24,21,7,false,Medium,12,10,fal se,0,false,0,) it is with the AC 24 that you'd get from a shield + scale + Shield.)

[Unoriginal]

I mean, I was literally just reporting the CR numbers I got when I punched the 5th level Fighter's AC, HP (+ the ~10.5 healing the Second Wind), damage, and to-hit chance into this calculator (https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html#0,19,21,7,false,Medium,12,10,fal se,0,false,0,)...

(Here (https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html#0,24,21,7,false,Medium,12,10,fal se,0,false,0,) it is with the AC 24 that you'd get from a shield + scale + Shield.)

How does a lvl 5 Eldritch Knight inflict 21 damage average with a one-handed weapon? Using a longsword with +4 from STR, you're looking at 8.5 per hit, so 17 damage with the two attacks.

Also worth noting CR calculations treat "has X HP but can heal Y amount" as different from "Has X+Y HPs". It's because healing requires the being to take time in their turn to activate it, and it's possible they don't get the chance (ex: if the PCs' damage would kill the creature before they can heal).

Also also worth noting that a lvl 5 Eldritch Knight can cast precisely 3 Shields before needing a rest, assuming they cast no other spell above cantrips, and having your Reaction/being able to use it isn't guaranteed either (which is why monsters with Parry abilities don't have it counted in their normal AC).

EDIT:

I admit that my "between 1/5 and 1/2" claim isn't perfect, given that CR 3 is 1/1.66 of lvl 5. So yes, a PC that is optimized in the domains CR calculation cares about can push because the 1/2 mark.


Having 3 rounds of requiring 17+ to hit assuming their foes is as good a weapon user as them, but with a poor DEX save, such an EK would make for an interesting puzzle boss, who may terrify some players.

Especially if the EK plays up the "you can't hurt me" angle to bluff they can only Shield three times.

[JayDomK]

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5. However, that's because the 5e mechanics gives a lot of perks to the side with the higher number of combatants.



On the other hand that's not a bad thing. Five combatants is a company that can overcome more difficulties than four.

[JayDomK]

Especially if the EK plays up the "you can't hurt me" angle to bluff they can only Shield three times.

Is there any way to know if EK is bluffing or not? Maybe indirectly?

[GeneralVryth]

To continue on my point from earlier. Let's use an archery focused Battlemaster Fighter.

Level 18, 18 Dex, 14 Con, +1 weapon, and +1 armor (likely a vast underestimate for a PC but maybe reasonable for an NPC built using PC classes)

Assuming they took the Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter along the way we can game out:

Elven Blade
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 18 (+1 Half Plate)
Hit Points 135 (18d10 + 36)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +6, Con +8
Skills Perception +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 17
Languages Common, Elvish
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Action Surge (2/Short): Preform one extra action this turn.
Precision Attack (6/Short): Add 1d12 to an attack that misses.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Blade makes three attacks.
Rapier. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
+1 Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +8*,**/+13* to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 19**/9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage. *Archery, **Sharpshooter
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The Blade teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.
Second Wind. (1/Short) The Blade heals 1d10+ 18 HP.

Defensive CR: 6 Base (second wind should just add to HP like regeneration), +1.5 from AC: 7.5

Average Damage (using Sharpshooter for all offensive CR calculations): 57 per action, 95 per round assuming all Action Surges are used and the standard 3 round damage check.

Average Attack: 8 + ~1d12/2 gives +11

Offensive CR 15 Base + 1.5 from Attack: 16.5

Total CR: 12

It's further off from additive approach I mention earlier but not by that much, meanwhile that's a 2/3rd PC Level to CR conversion ratio without really being a full PC (though close) with all the fixings. It could easily get another +1 to CR from more appropriate gear. I think there is something to the idea that relationship between PC level and CR is more additive than multiplicative. But that would also require a lot more examples to really nail down.

[Unoriginal]

Defensive CR: 6 Base (second wind should just add to HP like regeneration), +1.5 from AC: 7.5

Regeneration isn't just adding to the HP, though.


It could easily get another +1 to CR from more appropriate gear.

I mean, adding magic items to a monster stat block is going to affect the CR too. The Warlord NPC would be higher CR with a +3 armor and a Flame Tongue sword.



Total CR: 12

It's further off from additive approach I mention earlier but not by that much, meanwhile that's a 2/3rd PC Level to CR conversion ratio without really being a full PC (though close) with all the fixings.


I admit I was wrong, I had forgotten that the ratio changed for characters changed at both ends of the level scale (ex: the aforementioned Warlord compared to a lvl 18 Fighter).

Allow me to amend the claim:

At low level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR, with 1/4 to 1/2 being the common range. At high level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/4 and 3/4 of a CR, with 1/2 to 2/3 being the common range.



I think there is something to the idea that relationship between PC level and CR is more additive than multiplicative. But that would also require a lot more examples to really nail down.

I'm confused, you just said that the numbers were off for the additive relationship you mentioned earlier.

Why would the additive relationship be more likely?

EDIT:

The truth is that the actual relationship between CR and lvl is neither additive nor multiplicative.

Level affects HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and to a certain extent AC, and a lot of other things. CR is calculated based on HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and AC, with other things having a much smaller impact.


In consequence of how CR is calculated, one character level can be estimated as not being equal to a full CR, but a certain fraction of it.

(Which is the main reason why spells and abilities that let one transform a PC into a creature whose CR is equal to their level are so notoriously powerful).

[GeneralVryth]

First off, I am not actually trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just think the idea is interesting.


Regeneration isn't just adding to the HP, though.


True but it's the only healing example I noticed when looking at the DMG CR calculation rules. And really even if said that is only worth half the value it doesn't change the outcome, but in this case I think full value makes sense as there are no other uses for the bonus action for the statblock so it will get used as soon as damage is taken.



I mean, adding magic items to a monster stat block is going to affect the CR too. The Warlord NPC would be higher CR with a +3 armor and a Flame Tongue sword.

True which is why I only put what I would call an NPC level of stuff in the statblock. But if the question is about guesstimating PC CRs items are going to make a 1 to maybe 3 CR difference.



I admit I was wrong, I had forgotten that the ratio changed for characters changed at both ends of the level scale (ex: the aforementioned Warlord compared to a lvl 18 Fighter).

Allow me to amend the claim:

At low level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR, with 1/4 to 1/2 being the common range. At high level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/4 and 3/4 of a CR, with 1/2 to 2/3 being the common range.

I'm confused, you just said that the numbers were off for the additive relationship you mentioned earlier.

Why would the additive relationship be more likely?

EDIT:

The truth is that the actual relationship between CR and lvl is neither additive nor multiplicative.

Level affects HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and to a certain extent AC, and a lot of other things. CR is calculated based on HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and AC, with other things having a much smaller impact.


In consequence of how CR is calculated, one character level can be estimated as not being equal to a full CR, but a certain fraction of it.

(Which is the main reason why spells and abilities that let one transform a PC into a creature whose CR is equal to their level are so notoriously powerful).

An additive relationship is:
CR = PC Level - X

A multiplicative one is:
CR = PC Level * X

At least that is what I meant when I was trying to describe the relationship types above. The fact your fractions change with level range in the way they do actually points to a more additive relationship as well. When I was said I may be off that was because I predicted X in the additive relationship to be in the 3 to 5 range and my example turned out to be 6.

Just for the sake of some more data here is some statblocks I worked up awhile back to give me some more NPC options to fill out my game world and because I didn't like the MM way of doing NPCs. The important thing is they are all built more like PCs (though with NPC stat blocks) and just simplifying (and occasionally balancing) the abilities that end up in the stat blocks.

Elven Blade
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 17 (Chain Shirt, shield)
Hit Points 19 (3d10 + 3)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +2, Con +3
Skills Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1/2 (100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
ACTIONS
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4*) slashing damage. *Dueling
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.

Elven Scout
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 15 (Studded Leather)
Hit Points 26 (4d10 + 4)
Speed 35 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +2, Dex +5
Skills Perception +3, Stealth +5
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
ACTIONS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) piercing damage.
BONUS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) slashing damage.
Hunter's Mark. Designate a target you can see within 90 ft. You deal an additional 3 (1d6) damage with your weapon attacks against it this turn.


Elven Apprentice Warmage
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 17 (Mage Armor, Bladesong)
Hit Points 22 (4d6 + 8 Tough)
Speed 40 ft. (Bladesong)
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 10 (+0)
INT 14 (+2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +4, Wis +2
Skills Arcana +4, Perception +2
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 12
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Bladesong. The Warmage moves 10 ft. faster, has advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and adds his intelligence modifier to his AC and Constitution saving throws for concentration.
Spellcasting. The Apprentice is a 4th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 12, +4 to hit with spell attacks). The Apprentice has following wizard spells prepared: Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st level (1 slot left): Ice Knife, Mage Armor*, Shield, Sleep
2nd level (1 slot left): Blur, Hold Person, Shatter
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Elfsword (Booming Blade). Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) slashing damage and 4 (1d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Ray of Frost. Ranged Spell Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 120 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d8) cold damage and speed reduced by -10 feet.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.






















Elven Guardian
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Unarmored Defense)
Hit Points 33 (6d8 + 6)
Speed 50 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +3, Dex +7
Skills Perception +5, Stealth +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 15
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Guardian makes two attacks.
Staff. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Unarmed. Melee Unarmed Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Dart. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
Flurry of Blows. The Guardian makes two unarmed attacks. When a creature is hit with one of these attacks choose from the following:
- It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC 13) or be knocked prone.
- It must make a Strength saving throw (DC 13). If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
- It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Patient Defense. The Guardian takes the Dodge action.
Step of the Wind. The Guardian takes the Disengage or Dash action. The Guardian’s jump distance is doubled for the turn.
REACTIONS
Deflect Missiles. The Guardian can deflect or catch a missile when hit by a ranged attack. Reduce the damage 15 (1d10 + 10).










Elven Watcher
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Studded Leather)
Hit Points 52 (8d10 + 8)
Speed 45 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +3, Dex +7, Wis +5
Skills Perception +5, Stealth +17 (Pass Without Trace)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 15
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Colossus Slayer. (1/Turn) When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes an extra 4 (1d8) damage if it’s below its hit point maximum.
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Mobile. When the Watcher makes a melee attack against a creature, it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether it hits or not.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Watcher makes two attacks with the Shortsword or Longbow.
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Hunter's Mark. Designate a target you can see within 90 ft. You deal an additional 3 (1d6) damage with your weapon attacks against it this turn.
Fleet of Foot. The Watcher takes the Dash action and difficult terrain doesn’t cost it extra movement.














Elven Eldritch Knight
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 19 (Half-Plate, Shield)
Hit Points 68 (8d10 + 8 + 16 Tough)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 14 (+2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Con +4, Str +3
Skills Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Warcaster. The Eldritch Knight has advantage on Constitution saving throws for concentration, can perform the somatic actions of spells while wielding a weapon and shield, and can make opportunity attacks using Booming Blade.
Spellcasting. The Eldritch Knight is a 3rd-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 13, +5 to hit with spell attacks). The Eldritch Knight has following wizard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending
1st level (1 slot left): Absorb Elements, Burning Hands, Prot. from Evil/Good, Shield
2nd level (1 slot left): Mirror Image, Shatter
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Eldritch Knight makes two attacks with the Elfsword or Longbow.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6*) slashing damage. *Dueling
Booming Blade. The Warmage makes an attack with the Elfsword and adds 4 (1d8) thunder damage if he hits and 9 (2d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
War Magic. If the Eldritch Knight uses Booming Blade he can make one attack with his Elfsword.
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.















Elven Warmage
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 19 (Mage Armor, Bladesong)
Hit Points 52 (8d6 + 8 + 16 Tough)
Speed 40 ft. (Bladesong)
STR 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1)
INT 16 (+3) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +6, Wis +3
Skills Arcana +6, Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Bladesong. The Warmage moves 10 ft. faster, has advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and adds his intelligence modifier to his AC and Constitution saving throws for concentration.
Spellcasting. The Warmage is an 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Warmage has following wizard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st level (1 slot left): Absorb Elements, Mage Armor*, Shield, Sleep
2nd level (1 slot left): Hold Person, Shatter
3rd level (1 slot left): Counterspell, Fireball, Fly
4th level (1 slot left): Arcane Eye, Dimension Door
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Warmage makes two attacks with the Elfsword.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) slashing damage.
Booming Blade. The Warmage makes an attack with the Elfsword and adds 4 (1d8) thunder damage if he hits and 9 (2d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Ray of Frost. Ranged Spell Attack: +6 to hit, ranged 120 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (2d8) cold damage and speed reduced by -10 feet.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.














Elven Envoy
Medium humanoid (Half Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Breastplate)
Hit Points 52 (8d8 + 16)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 16 (+3)
Saving Throws Dex +5, Cha +5
Skills Deception +6, Insight +6*, Intimidation +6, Perception +3, Performance +6, Persuasion +9*, Stealth +5 (* = Expertise)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Spellcasting. The Envoy is an 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Envoy has following bard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Mending, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
1st level (1 slot left): Detect Magic, Healing Word
2nd level (1 slot left): Shatter, Suggestion, Zone of Truth
3rd level (1 slot left): Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Sending, Tongues
4th level (1 slot left): Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Envoy makes two attacks with the Elfsword or Longbow.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage.
BONUS
Inspiration. (2/Short) The Envoy selects one ally within 60 feet that can hear him, that ally gets +4 (1d8) to the next ability check, attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw of his choice.
REACTIONS
Parry. The Envoy adds 3 to its AC against one melee attack that would hit it. To do so, the Envoy must see the attacker and be wielding a melee weapon.












Elven Panther
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 14 (Hide Armor)
Hit Points 52 (8d8 + 16)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +3, Wis +6
Skills Nature +3, Perception +6, Survival +6
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish, Druidic
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Spellcasting. The Panther is a 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Warmage has following druid spells prepared: Cantrips (at will): Druidcraft, Shillelagh, Thunderclap
1st level (1 slot left): Entangle, Goodberry, Speak with Animals
2nd level (1 slot left): Animal Messenger, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Pass Without Trace
3rd level (1 slot left): Call Lightning, Dispel Magic
4th level (1 slot left): Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Staff. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) bludgeoning damage.
BONUS
Wild Shape. (2/Short) The Panther can assume the form of a beast CR 2 or below (usually: Brown Bear, Dire Wolf, Giant Eagle, Giant Spider, Giant Constrictor Snake, Giant Elk, or Saber-Toothed Tiger). This ability functions with all of the rules of the Druid Wild Shape in the Player’s Handbook.

Relevant data:

Elven Blade Level 3 CR 1/2 Ratio 1/6 Step Diff 3
Elven Scout Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3
App. Warmage Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3
Guardian Level 6 CR 3 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 3
Watcher Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Eld. Knight Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Warmage Level 8 CR 5 Ratio 1/2+ Step Diff 3
Envoy Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Panther Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4

So using that sample set (which is far from all inclusive and biased by being built solely by me) it seems to suggest an additive approach for translating PC level to CR may be more accurate than multiplicative.

[Unoriginal]

First off, I am not actually trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just think the idea is interesting.

Fair.



True which is why I only put what I would call an NPC level of stuff in the statblock. But if the question is about guesstimating PC CRs items are going to make a 1 to maybe 3 CR difference.

Agreed.




An additive relationship is:
CR = PC Level - X

A multiplicative one is:
CR = PC Level * X

At least that is what I meant when I was trying to describe the relationship types above. The fact your fractions change with level range in the way they do actually points to a more additive relationship as well. When I was said I may be off that was because I predicted X in the additive relationship to be in the 3 to 5 range and my example turned out to be 6.

Just for the sake of some more data here is some statblocks I worked up awhile back to give me some more NPC options to fill out my game world and because I didn't like the MM way of doing NPCs. The important thing is they are all built more like PCs (though with NPC stat blocks) and just simplifying (and occasionally balancing) the abilities that end up in the stat blocks.

[...]


Elven Blade Level 3 CR 1/2 Ratio 1/6 Step Diff 3
Elven Scout Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3
App. Warmage Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3
Guardian Level 6 CR 3 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 3
Watcher Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Eld. Knight Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Warmage Level 8 CR 5 Ratio 1/2+ Step Diff 3
Envoy Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4
Panther Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4

So using that sample set (which is far from all inclusive and biased by being built solely by me) it seems to suggest an additive approach for translating PC level to CR may be more accurate than multiplicative.

Thank you for providing this data.

By curiosity, have you tried doing the reverse? As in, taking a monster statblock, and see what ratio and step difference they'd be compared to a PC

[GeneralVryth]

Thank you for providing this data.


No problem. I actually have more. But it is all biased by 2 important things. First, they are all stat blocks I personally made. So they are likely to follow a much more consistent level of optimization than ones made by a bunch of different people. Second, they are all tier 1 or 2. They just work well as way to illustrate the difference and maybe provide a little evidence.



By curiosity, have you tried doing the reverse? As in, taking a monster statblock, and see what ratio and step difference they'd be compared to a PC

I may be misunderstanding what you mean, but how would that work? Ultimately CR is just an approximation of creature's ability to take and receive damage. Just about anything with combat stats can have a CR generated for it. A PC statblock on the other hand follows a lot more rules, which weren't followed when generating most/all monster statblocks. So what would a monster CR to PC level even mean? If the question is about what is the right monster to replace the combat capability of a PC of X level then it would just be a matter of reversing the equations once you figure out the PC Level to CR conversion (if there is a reliable one).

[Unoriginal]

I may be misunderstanding what you mean, but how would that work? Ultimately CR is just an approximation of creature's ability to take and receive damage. Just about anything with combat stats can have a CR generated for it. A PC statblock on the other hand follows a lot more rules, which weren't followed when generating most/all monster statblocks. So what would a monster CR to PC level even mean? If the question is about what is the right monster to replace the combat capability of a PC of X level then it would just be a matter of reversing the equations once you figure out the PC Level to CR conversion (if there is a reliable one).

I meant it as:

Character of lvl X can do Y (ex, damage output), what kind of PC and which level can do that?

Ex: to which level of Fighter can a Veteran NPC match the closest with?

[RSP]

Interesting stuff! What about Level to CR for different classes? Does CR equivalent provide a way to actually compare classes in an objective way? Like “Rogues tend to be 1/4 CR, while Fighters are 1/3 CR”.

Not sure there isn’t still a ton of variation in subclasses, but it would be interesting to see what the base classes equate to.

[JackPhoenix]

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5.

Monsters are also designed for a single encounter, while PCs are supposed to face multiple encounters between rests. That's certainly relevant. The level 4 fighter isn't supposed to fight one bugbear and go to sleep. With 200 XP per bugbear, and daily XP budget of 1700 XP for a single level 4 character (and the x1.5 modifier for less than 3 PCs), the character is expected to face 5 (and 2/3) bugbears over the course of the adventuring day, assuming each shows on his own (if they come in pairs, the adjusted XP modifier is x2, so only 2 pairs of 2 bugbears (200*2*2=800) over the day) with 2 short rests at some point in between. A single bugbear is an easy encounter for level 4 fighter. 2 bugbears at once are a hard encounter, and have a good chance to kill the fighter outright if they manage to get the ambush off).

Due to the nature of the game, the PCs are favored, too: The monster is expected to lose its single encounter, while the PC is supposed to survive the entire adventuring day.

[GeneralVryth]

I meant it as:

Character of lvl X can do Y (ex, damage output), what kind of PC and which level can do that?

Ex: to which level of Fighter can a Veteran NPC match the closest with?

I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work, assuming the formula is accurate enough and the PC is built right. Assuming my guesses earlier are correct then a CR 3 Veteran, can probably be replicated or replaced by a level 6 or 7 Fighter (maybe even level 5, since the Veteran is more like a CR 2.5).

6d10+12 HP is ~45 a little low but covered by Second Wind
Armor is easy with the same splint
The Fighter would clearly have Two Weapon Fighting Style
16 Str is reasonable enough from NPC stats with 1 feat, so the weapon mods and thus offensive output ends up the same.
Probably a Champion sub-class since it's so weak it wouldn't effect CR much.
Action Surge would help offset the lost attack for Second Wind, and put damage output enough to make it closer to a solid CR 3 instead of 2.5.

The above said, it's pretty clear a true level 6 PC Fighter would almost certainly come out stronger than the Veteran, assuming a solid build trying to replicate the same fighting style (or improve on it).

[Unoriginal]

A single bugbear is an easy encounter for level 4 fighter. 2 bugbears at once are a hard encounter, and have a good chance to kill the fighter outright if they manage to get the ambush off).

By the encounter calculation, a single Bugbear is a Medium encounter for the lvl 4 Fighter, and 2 Bugbear would make it Deadly.

Which is coherent with the likely and not-so-likely-but-still-possible results those fights could have.

Adventuring alone makes fighting an opponent who is weaker than the Fighter but not by *that* much a very dicey situation, if you'll forgive my pun.



Due to the nature of the game, the PCs are favored, too: The monster is expected to lose its single encounter, while the PC is supposed to survive the entire adventuring day.

This is true to an extent. I don't think the PC is supposed to survive, they're expected to be able to survive.

There is a big difference between "able to do X" and "supposed to do X".


I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work, assuming the formula is accurate enough and the PC is built right. Assuming my guesses earlier are correct then a CR 3 Veteran, can probably be replicated or replaced by a level 6 or 7 Fighter (maybe even level 5, since the Veteran is more like a CR 2.5).

6d10+12 HP is ~45 a little low but covered by Second Wind
Armor is easy with the same splint
The Fighter would clearly have Two Weapon Fighting Style
16 Str is reasonable enough from NPC stats with 1 feat, so the weapon mods and thus offensive output ends up the same.
Probably a Champion sub-class since it's so weak it wouldn't effect CR much.
Action Surge would help offset the lost attack for Second Wind, and put damage output enough to make it closer to a solid CR 3 instead of 2.5.

The above said, it's pretty clear a true level 6 PC Fighter would almost certainly come out stronger than the Veteran, assuming a solid build trying to replicate the same fighting style (or improve on it).

I agree with everything said here.

My estimation a while ago was lvl 5 Fighter.

[JackPhoenix]

By the encounter calculation, a single Bugbear is a Medium encounter for the lvl 4 Fighter, and 2 Bugbear would make it Deadly.

You're right, I forgot to include the multiplier and only checked the base 200 XP value of a bugbear(s) against XP tresholds (which are 250 for medium and 500 for deadly), despite using it for the number of encounters per day.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

I mean, the problem with trying to draw a comparison this way is that monsters and PCs are designed in very different ways. Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

Yeah... I wish the WotC devs put in, or was allowed to put in, half the effort that the ppl on this thread is putting into the CR system.

'Cause then we would have gotten a decent CR/monster system and/or math.

[JLandan]

When comparing PC level and monster CR, it is impossible to make a measured comparison. There are too many variables; stats, equipment, special abilities, players' skill, etc. Few of these variables can be codified for a mathematical equation. Because a measured comparison cannot be made, the only way to make a useful comparison is a judged comparison.

A judgement is both more complex in some ways and less complex in others. The general comparison of 1 PC level to 1/4 CR is a judgement, not a calculation. It is also the best comparison, but it starts to fall apart at higher levels. Which is why judgement, not measurement, is the only way to make a useful comparison. Judgement can self-correct. But it must still be based in some measurement and not just pulled out of thin air. You can say a 4 PC party of 1st level is roughly equal to a CR 1 monster (based on measurable features and good judgement), but if you say a 4 PC party of 1st level is roughly equal to a CR 10 monster (no measurable features and poor judgement), you're going to get dead PCs.

It's a called shot, more like a gymnast's score than a runner's time. An experienced DM can look at a monster's stat block and judge whether it will be too weak, okay or too powerful without looking at its CR.

[JNAProductions]

I will say, since this is a CR thread, I vastly prefer 5E's implementation to 3.5's.

In 3.5, each HD was worth X CR, where X was almost always less than one.
A template added +Y CR.
Adding associated class levels (so a martial class for a Troll, a casting class for an Aboleth, etc.) adds 1 to the CR, but a non-associated class level added .5 to the CR. Once you have equal HD and non-associated class levels, future levels are considered associated.
This might sound good, in theory, but the issue is it didn't work very well.

A Stone Giant (CR 8, 14 HD, +2 Wis as the only mental modifier) could add fourteen levels of Wizard and be CR 15.
An Ogre (CR 3, 4 HD, -4 Int and Cha as mental modifiers) with fourteen levels of Wizard is ALSO CR 15, despite being worse in basically every way.

In 5E, it's a guideline-if you make a monster with stats of X, it should be CR Y.
It's not complete-too much is unaccounted for, and the numbers aren't perfect to begin with. But it's not gameable like the 3.5 system is.

[Unoriginal]

When comparing PC level and monster CR, it is impossible to make a measured comparison. There are too many variables; stats, equipment, special abilities, players' skill, etc. Few of these variables can be codified for a mathematical equation

This is not correct.

The CR calculation mainly cares about HP, AC, to-hit chance, save DCs and damage output, with anything else being a miscellaneous category that can up or down the CR by a bit.

We know the general lower and upper limits of a PC built with the standard rules. Therefore it is absolutely possible to calculate the CR of a creature with levels, or compare the CR to PC levels.

How useful that calculation/comparison is is a whole other debate. But it is possible.

As demonstrated by many in this very thread.


The general comparison of 1 PC level to 1/4 CR is a judgement, not a calculation.

It was calculated. Using the provided math.

Therefore, a calculation.


I will say, since this is a CR thread, I vastly prefer 5E's implementation to 3.5's.


Same.

[JackPhoenix]

I will say, since this is a CR thread, I vastly prefer 5E's implementation to 3.5's.

Agreed, though it could still be better if they've listed both component numbers of the final CR (because as it is, a hypotetical monster with offensive CR of 1/8 and defensive CR of 20 would have the same final CR as another monster with offensive CR of 20 and defensive CR of 1/8, despite clearly not being anywhere near close to similar in an encounter) or if they aknowledged different roles a monster could have in battle, like in 4e (I don't like 4e monster design, but that part was good) instead of reducing everything to offense and defense, especially considering some monster features are very dependant on circumstances.
A lone hobgoblin is identical to CR 1/8 guard with better equipment, but in a group, it can use Martial Advantage to vastly improve its damage.
An ambusher like an assassin is dangerous in the first round, but after that, its combat effectiveness drops sharply.
A controller like Enchanter doesn't have much damage to stand on its own, but it can serve as a powerful force multiplier if combined with allies (and the new version shows how stupid and boring reducing everything to just offense and defense is).

[rlc]

i forget if there’s math in here, but i keep one of my tabs open on this https://slyflourish.com/5e_encounter_building.html

[Easy e]

Somewhat off topic, but one of my favorite reasons to use Humanoid foes is that I can then give them Class levels to amp them up. This really makes their abilities less clear to the players, and allows me to more easily match them in the game.

Sure, you are facing a half-dozen Goblins, but what-if they are all Level 20 barbarians? That changes what you are facing a whole lot.

The most difficult opponents my players typically face are other adventuring parties.* <evil grin>




*= Or Law Enforcement. My players never like it when law enforcement gets involved, they see that as a fail state now. Really curbs the Murder-Hoboing.

[Alexander Atoz]

Hello

Posting again as the guy that started this thread.
I've seen several different ideas here, and there is obviously a lot to think about. I wanted to ask if anybody be interested in addressing the idea I suggested, and kicked off the thread with. Namely, I suggested that CR vs. PC could maybe be better addressed via the XP system than via a percentage of the level. Unoriginal was forced to admit that at high levels the fraction changes (which arguably means that there has to be a few transition levels where the ratio is in the middle of changing) and I feel that XP can avoid that, if we exempt level 1 and readjust the CR's above 20.
So far all I've heard is that I'm wrong. No facts were given, just the information that this is how it's actually done. Do any of you want to try to calculate what would happen if you tried to do it my way?
(I know that my way isn't the regular way. Think of it as my suggesting that I came up with a new, better [I think] way, and tell me what you think about it if you actually take time to think about it.)
I'm quoting myself here so that you don't have to go back to the beginning of the thread to see my suggestion.
Since there was debate, I'll clarify that equal strength means that if both fight each other, or if the same number of each fight each other (such as 4 vs. 4) they would each have approx. 50% chance of winning.

I've been trying to work out the relationship between monster level and player level. My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.
That wasn't clear at all, so let's give examples.
A CR 6 monster is worth 2,300 XP. Based on my theory, a level six PC should be worth half that, or 1,150 XP, and be approx. equal to a CR 4 monster. (CR 4 = 11,000 XP). Similarly, a level 9 monster is worth 5,000 XP, so if my rule holds true a level 9 PC is equal to (or a bit stronger than) a level 6 monster. (5,000/2 = 2,500. CR 6 = 2,300).
Obviously, I'm talking about an ordinary build. If someone used multiclassing to build something incredibly strong or weak, that will throw off this rating. Also, in a fight it is often the case that a specific monster happens too be optimized against any one specific PC, or vice versa. Terrain, surprise, and everything else can also throw stuff off.
I will also mention that my rule isn't meant to include CR's above 20, as the XP there gets kind of crazy. (According strictly to the XP, a tarrasque should be equal to six CR 20 monsters, or to four if he fights them at once and you add the multiplier for groups. I really don't think that is the case. My best guess for monsters above CR 20 is that you should halve all XP above 20, at which point the tarrasque would be worth 85,000 XP. That sounds about right, but all this is another story.)

[Unoriginal]

So far all I've heard is that I'm wrong. No facts were given, just the information that this is how it's actually done.

This is verifiably untrue. We all have provided facts and calculations (and calculators, for that matter), proportionally to the provided data.



Do any of you want to try to calculate what would happen if you tried to do it my way?

*You* should be the one who try to do it your way. The person making the claim is the one who has to provide the data.

But fine, let's try it your way:



My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.


and I feel that XP can avoid that, if we exempt level 1 and readjust the CR's above 20.



Since there was debate, I'll clarify that equal strength means that if both fight each other, or if the same number of each fight each other (such as 4 vs. 4) they would each have approx. 50% chance of winning.

So... exempting level 1, that gives us:

Level 2 =225 XP = CR 1

In other words, if your hypothesis was correct, a lvl 2 Fighter would 50% chances of winning and 50% chances of losing against a Bugbear, in an 1 vs 1 fight.

Do you stand by this assertion?

[Alexander Atoz]

I do, actually.
The fighter's HP at level 2 is 18.5, and that's assuming he's going for an INT build. (Eldritch knight, or one of the Tasha's options also does INT.) Otherwise, he has + 2 CON, bringing him to 20.5. Second wind, which he'll certainly use unless he went for two weapon fighting (which also uses a bonus action) raises this by 7.5, giving us 26 with INT build, 28 without. The bugbear has 27 HP.
AC. The fighter will take chain, (he probably won't have improved his armor by level 2) letting him tie with the bugbear at 16 AC. If he has a shield, he beats the bugbear by two points, at 18 AC.
+ 5 to hit. The bugbear only has + 4.
Damage. This needs to be combined with the fighting style, so there are several options.
Duelist. He uses a d8 weapon, which means he does 9.5 damage. (+ 2 from duelist.) A bit less than the bugbear, but his AC is two points higher (he'll be using a shield), combined with the higher chance to hit he has an extra + 3 over the bugbear to hit. (Meaning that the bugbear will have to roll 3 points higher on the dice than the player will. I plan to use this language again as we continue.)
Greater weapon fighting. Whether he uses a d12 weapon, or a 2d6 weapon, his average with just the weapon dice is close to 8.5. (with the d12 weapon, I calculate it as 8 and a third.) + 3 for STR, and he's doing a bit more than the bugbear.
2-weapon fighting. 2 attacks. 6.5 damage per attack. (He'd need a feat to use the d8 rapiers 2 handed, which he won't have unless he's variant human.) So a good bit more damage than the bugbear, although he might have to skip one attack if he needs to use second wind. (Most likely worth it, unless he's on the verge of killing the bugbear.)
Armor mastery. Not much to say. Either 7 damage, 2/3 of what the bugbear has, but 2 higher to hit, or 4.5, which is roughly 2/5 of what the bugbear does, but the bugbear needs to roll 4 higher to hit. I'd think it would cancel out, although a pain in the neck to prove.
I'm skipping archery and protection. Protection means I'd have to add a second PC (and a second bugbear) and that adds complication, and archery is going to be a pain in the neck to use. For starters, we'd have to decide how close they should start to each other, and there's no way to decide that.
The bugbear has surprise attack, but achieving surprise is situational and often doesn't happen. The fighter has action surge, which is a very strong ability that will definitely happen.
My conclusion is that the two are pretty much equal. I.E that have a more or less equal chance to win a fight between the two of them.

Just a few more items:

*You* should be the one who try to do it your way. The person making the claim is the one who has to provide the data.

How could I possibly do this? The only way I could think of is if we analyze every monster in every D&D book, and compare them to every possible PC. I was posting here to give people a chance to support or disprove it.


So far all I've heard is that I'm wrong. No facts were given, just the information that this is how it's actually done.

This is verifiably untrue. We all have provided facts and calculations (and calculators, for that matter), proportionally to the provided data.
If you could show me this, (perhaps in form of quotations?) I'd be most interested.
So far, all I've seen is a lot of discussion about ways to compare CR and player level, none of which is my way. That's fine, I don't claim ownership of the thread, and I'm happy for people to use it to discuss whatever. BUT, I didn't figure interrupting the conversation to ask what people thought about my way was horribly impolite when I'm the one who started the thread.
Thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this with me. I am actually very interested in what you have to say, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Alexander Atoz

[GeneralVryth]

How could I possibly do this? The only way I could think of is if we analyze every monster in every D&D book, and compare them to every possible PC. I was posting here to give people a chance to support or disprove it.

If you could show me this, (perhaps in form of quotations?) I'd be most interested.
So far, all I've seen is a lot of discussion about ways to compare CR and player level, none of which is my way. That's fine, I don't claim ownership of the thread, and I'm happy for people to use it to discuss whatever. BUT, I didn't figure interrupting the conversation to ask what people thought about my way was horribly impolite when I'm the one who started the thread.
Thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this with me. I am actually very interested in what you have to say, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Alexander Atoz

The way to test how well your algorithm works would be to generate some PC stat blocks, and calculate their CRs and see how well that matches up with the CR your algorithm produces. That's kind of what I did earlier in this thread to compare a couple of systems.

I also wonder if there is a more elegant way to express your algorithm So here is the numbers kind of brute forced:


CR EXP Val Half Closest CR
1/8 25 12.5 0
1/4 50 25 1/8
1/2 100 50 ¼
1 200 100 ½
2 450 225 1
3 700 350 2
4 1,100 550 2?
5 1,800 900 3
6 2,300 1150 4
7 2,900 1450 4.5
8 3,900 1950 5
9 5,000 2500 6
10 5,900 2950 7
11 7,200 3600 8
12 8,400 4200 8
13 10,000 5000 9
14 11,500 5750 10
15 13,000 6500 10
16 15,000 7500 11
17 18,000 9000 12
18 20,000 10000 13
19 22,000 11000 14
20 25,000 12500 15

I don't see one elegant and precise pattern there, though there are runs of ones.

As for some data I added a column for your suggestion to may data from earlier:


Elven Blade Level 3 CR 1/2 Ratio 1/6 Step Diff 3 1/2 Val CR 2
Elven Scout Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3 1/2 Val CR 2.5
App. Warmage Level 4 CR 1 Ratio 1/4 Step Diff 3 1/2 Val CR 2.5
Guardian Level 6 CR 3 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 3 1/2 Val CR 4
Watcher Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4 1/2 Val CR 5
Eld. Knight Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4 1/2 Val CR 5
Warmage Level 8 CR 5 Ratio 1/2+ Step Diff 3 1/2 Val CR 5
Envoy Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4 1/2 Val CR 5
Panther Level 8 CR 4 Ratio 1/2 Step Diff 4 1/2 Val CR 5

Your approach mostly ends up guessing high, then again my data are NPC stat blocks built close to PC rules, but they had non-heroic arrays and not every PC ability so they would be end being weaker than a comparable PC. Really need more data and from more varied levels to say anything concrete.

[Unoriginal]

I do, actually.

[...]

My conclusion is that the two are pretty much equal. I.E that have a more or less equal chance to win a fight between the two of them.

Thank you for clarifying your assertion.

Do you also assert that a lvl 2 Bard has 50% chances of winning and 50% chances of losing in a 1 vs 1 fight against the Bugbear?




How could I possibly do this? The only way I could think of is if we analyze every monster in every D&D book, and compare them to every possible PC.

1) This isn't the only way. You could do as GeneralVryth said, for example. You could also create one "generic PC" for each class and compare them to a selection of monsters for each CR, or do any other way that show your hypothesis is based on reality.

2) IF the only way to demonstrate your hypothesis was to "analyze every monster in every D&D book, and compare them to every possible PC"... then that's what you would have to do in order to demonstrate your hypothesis. Otherwise it would just be a non-demonstrated, dataless idea, and not an hypothesis.

When I set out to demonstrate the chances of success of an invisible Imp doing a DEX (Stealth) check, I compared their capacities against the perception capacities of every D&D creature from CR 0 to CR 10 in the MM, Volo's and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foe (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655110-Sneaking-Imp-Chain-Familiar-vs-the-World-an-analysis-(data-collected)).

Because hypotheses in a TTRPG require a *lot* of data to demonstrate.

Note that my work above was still judged insufficient by many.

3)Saying "how could I possibly do this?" when told you should provide data puts in question how you came up with that hypothesis in the first place.

Surely you had collect data in order to come up a new way to do that calculation, no?



I was posting here to give people a chance to support or disprove it.

And again, first you need to provide your data, with your methodology alongside it to explain which parameters you took into account and why.

Otherwise it's like you're asking *us* to do your work proving or disproving your idea.