The Death of V

[Mic_128]

So, obviously with the trip to the Oracle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), Belkar asked if he would cause the death of Roy, Miko, Miko's Horse, V or the Oracle, with the helpful "Yes" as the answer. Later on, the oracle explains (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) how Belkar was responsible for 'causing the death' of each of them (well, I suppose 'demonstrating' for the latter) but was interrupted when it came to "the elf".

I'm just wondering if there was any consensus on what could have been excused as V's 'death', assuming it's not something still to come.

[Domino Quartz]

I don't think the answer "Yes." to Belkar's question was meant to be "yes to all," but rather "yes to at least one."

[Tzardok]

Also, the oracle's "explanations" are just {scrubbed} made up in the hopes of Belkar not killing him.

[Kish]

Assuming that Mic_128 in fact understood those things, and is looking for "what asterisks explanation might the Oracle have offered for Vaarsuvius' death":

Someone pointed out in one of these threads that each explanation is a further stretch than the one before. By the time he got to Vaarsuvius it might have been something like:
ORACLE: Vaarsuvius turned into Darth Vaarsuvius--a name that the human here explicitly gave him. Thus, Vaarsuvius was killed, from a certain point of view.
HALEY: Even if that worked, Belkar had nothing to do with that!
ORACLE: You can't help but influence the people you work with. The halfling himself welcomed her to the deep end of the alignment pool at the time!

[Unoriginal]

Also, the oracle's "explanations" are just {scrubbed} made up in the hopes of Belkar not killing him.

The Oracle knew Belkar would kill him, and set several things to happen in consequence.

He just explained that the question was extremely vague and knew it would anger the halfling.

[Tzardok]

The Oracle knew Belkar would kill him, and set several things to happen in consequence.

He just explained that the question was extremely vague and knew it would anger the halfling.

Yes, the Oracle knew it would die. No, he didn't try to anger Belkar. He hoped that he could maybe avert the prophecy, because dying hurts. See also his last words: "Yeah... I wasn't buying these theories either... Worth a shot though..."

[Kish]

While he did not spell out that he was deliberately trying to aggravate Belkar in that scene, I'm blinking at the idea that he wasn't.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, the Oracle knew it would die. No, he didn't try to anger Belkar. He hoped that he could maybe avert the prophecy, because dying hurts. See also his last words: "Yeah... I wasn't buying these theories either... Worth a shot though..."

The question isn't if he tried to anger Belkar, he *did* anger Belkar and knew what the outcome of telling him would be.

Just like he knows the outcome of when he'll talk with that Druid he mentioned to the Lizardfolk duo.

He and Belkar also have an history of antagonizing each other, so it's not like he was trying to sooth the murderer.

[Tzardok]

While he did not spell out that he was deliberately trying to aggravate Belkar in that scene, I'm blinking at the idea that he wasn't.

And I am befuddled by the idea that he would deliberately aggravate someone whom he's hoping can be prevented from killing him.
He was annoying, yes, but he's always annoying to mammals. Him deliberately goading Belkar into killing him doesn't fit with his last words.

The question isn't if he tried to anger Belkar, he *did* anger Belkar and knew what the outcome of telling him would be.

Just like he knows the outcome of when he'll talk with that Druid he mentioned to the Lizardfolk duo.

He and Belkar also have an history of antagonizing each other, so it's not like he was trying to sooth the murderer.

Of course he knew what would happen. But he hoped that he could prevent it. "Maybe this time I'm wrong." That's how hope works.
If he didn't have hope, he wouldn't have wasted time with these explanations. He'd have said: "Of course your prophecy hasn't come true yet, you numbskull! Now kill me, if you think you've got the balls!" And he'd certainly haven't said last words that boil down to "Dang, I failed."
And that's why you try to "soothe" the murderer: because maybe he won't kill you.

[Kish]

And I am befuddled by the idea that he would deliberately aggravate someone whom he's hoping can be prevented from killing him.
He was annoying, yes, but he's always annoying to mammals.
Which is entirely a choice he makes, and a choice he chose to double down on when dealing with Belkar there. You're changing "was obviously going out of his way to aggravate Belkar" to "was deliberately goading Belkar into killing him." I did not say the latter. His goal in aggravating Belkar was what it always is: to aggravate Belkar. He was manifestly not trying to be soothing and so reasoning to why he would have is irrelevant, just as reasoning to why Roy would use a blue sword hilt would be.

[Tubercular Ox]

Assuming that Mic_128 in fact understood those things, and is looking for "what asterisks explanation might the Oracle have offered for Vaarsuvius' death":

Someone pointed out in one of these threads that each explanation is a further stretch than the one before. By the time he got to Vaarsuvius it might have been something like:
ORACLE: Vaarsuvius turned into Darth Vaarsuvius--a name that the human here explicitly gave him. Thus, Vaarsuvius was killed, from a certain point of view.
HALEY: Even if that worked, Belkar had nothing to do with that!
ORACLE: You can't help but influence the people you work with. The halfling himself welcomed her to the deep end of the alignment pool at the time!

Don't forget that one time when the Fiends claimed V's soul and brought it to Hell (because Belkar influenced V). The fact that he came back 20 minutes later doesn't matter because death is a revolving door and Belkar never asked about any of them coming back.

[hroþila]

The Oracle said that coming up with those BS explanations for Belkar's prophecy was "worth a shot". A shot at what? Not at "aggravating Belkar", because he did successfully do that. Presumably it was a shot at saving his own life, even though rationally he knew that was impossible. It is reasonable to believe that he wasn't trying to aggravate Belkar because that would have run counter to his own goal in coming up with those convoluted and far-fetched explanations. If Belkar had bought the Oracle's first explanation (which was obviously false but at least defensible with a humorous PowerPoint presentation and a mildly tipsy audience), that dialogue wouldn't have been aggravating at all

[Bedinsis]

I imagined that the oracle would go "As for the elf, they are still alive. (though trauma from the war seems to be getting to them)."

[Metastachydium]

Don't forget that one time when the Fiends claimed V's soul and brought it to Hell (because Belkar influenced V). The fact that he came back 20 minutes later doesn't matter because death is a revolving door and Belkar never asked about any of them coming back.

Mhm. And after killing Kubota, V even admits that given their current remaining companions' shortcomings, they began to find Belkar's ruthless efficacy inspiring (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html)! He was a factor in the long slide down that slippery slope!

[Somniloquist]

"As for the elf, you will actually save their life later, so tough luck there."

Just a little prediction.

[The MunchKING]

Don't forget that one time when the Fiends claimed V's soul and brought it to Hell (because Belkar influenced V). The fact that he came back 20 minutes later doesn't matter because death is a revolving door and Belkar never asked about any of them coming back.

Now that you put it that way I wonder if V's body was still doing the autonomous life signs stuff like it was just a coma, or if it was just dead for that bit.

[Precure]

"We both know you don't actually want to kill them, don't we? Let's stop playing games."

[woweedd]

Well, if we define "death" as the soul cacating the body and entering an Outer Plane aganist its well for some period, V has done that at least once, an act which occurred because of a deal they made partly while trying to find the split party of which Belkar was one of the splitees. If he'd been faster, V wouldn't have started obsessivly studying and avoiding sleep, whoch both put them in a more suggestiable and stressed mental state and led them to split off from the Fleet and get attacked by an Ancient Black Dragon.

[Tubercular Ox]

Should we bring up the messenger birds Belkar cooked, or is Haley responsible for those? If a message had gotten back to V, he wouldn't've made the pact.

[hungrycrow]

Assuming that Mic_128 in fact understood those things, and is looking for "what asterisks explanation might the Oracle have offered for Vaarsuvius' death":

Someone pointed out in one of these threads that each explanation is a further stretch than the one before. By the time he got to Vaarsuvius it might have been something like:
ORACLE: Vaarsuvius turned into Darth Vaarsuvius--a name that the human here explicitly gave him. Thus, Vaarsuvius was killed, from a certain point of view.
HALEY: Even if that worked, Belkar had nothing to do with that!
ORACLE: You can't help but influence the people you work with. The halfling himself welcomed her to the deep end of the alignment pool at the time!

If you run with the idea that V becoming Darth V counts as a death, then it would have been Belkar's fault. Belkar played a role in Roy's death, which forced Haley to separate from the group to get his body, which led to V going nuts and running away from Elan and Durkon, which led to V being alone and unstable enough to make the deal with the fiends.

It's a ridiculous stretch but it fits the pattern of each of the Oracle's arguments being dumber than the last.

[ZhonLord]

It's a ridiculous stretch but it fits the pattern of each of the Oracle's arguments being dumber than the last.

Time to make a game of this!

Oracle: "you see, the halfling's growth as a person and turning over a couple new leaves, resulted in becoming a party member who's good to work with. He and the elf in particular work together well in combat, even if they are at odds in downtime. So when the time came to fight Xykon, the pair's effectiveness in combat resulted in Xykon targeting them in particular with his strongest kill spells. Because the halfling helped draw said attention, the elf got killed in the AoE's while Belkar evasion'd his way to freedom. The elf died as a result of Belkar's competence, therefore he caused V's death."

Roy: ".....so V wouldn't have died to Xykon if Belkar had been less capable a teammate?"

Oracle: "oh no, the elf would still have died. But Belkar's drawing of Xykon's attention resulted in it being sooner than it would have been otherwise, therefore he caused V's Death."

Roy: ".....Belkar?"

Death's little helper: STAB

[KorvinStarmast]

Every elf dies, not every elf truly lives.
(~Some guy in a kilt in a movie~)

[Kardwill]

"Well, you see, he was dying inside a little every time someone in the party did something stupid. By my calculation, you and the bard alone cumulatively killed him 4,7 times already.
- You're bundling me with the bard?
- Well, the bard is the uncontested champion, but your personal idiocy has a Varsuvius braincell kill count of 112%. Congratulations. idiot"

[MeowMeow]

"And as for the elf.... he'll kill you"

[Precure]

"And as for the elf.... he'll kill you"

"He? Sweet!"

[Peelee]

"He? Sweet!"

Belkar calls V "she" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). Belkar is also convinced the Oracle is full of it in that scene.

[Precure]

Belkar calls V "she" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). Belkar is also convinced the Oracle is full of it in that scene.

"She? Sweet!"

[zommie]

A character claiming it is one way or the other is just them guessing, they don't know unless they are particularly used to dealing with elves.

[KorvinStarmast]

A character claiming it is one way or the other is just them guessing, they don't know unless they are particularly used to dealing with elves. Early in the story, Roy referred to Vaarsuvius as V-man. (I recall from a commentary that this was before the "what is V's gender" issue cropped up and Rich decided to be purposefully ambiguous).
Androgynous was often an adjective used for elves as far back as I can remember.

[gbaji]

It's also possible that calling V "she" makes him a bit less uncomfortable about the whole New Years "event".

[LuckyTheOrc]

It's also possible that calling V "she" makes him a bit less uncomfortable about the whole New Years "event".

Pretty sure that wasn't part of Belkar's objection. He was happy to visit prostitutes of varying genders when they were searching the cities around the Great Barren Desert for Draketooth. He just has issues with Vaarsuvius specifically.

[hungrycrow]

Pretty sure that wasn't part of Belkar's objection. He was happy to visit prostitutes of varying genders when they were searching the cities around the Great Barren Desert for Draketooth. He just has issues with Vaarsuvius specifically.

He begrudgingly agreed to talk to prostitutes of both genders after Roy basically ordered him to. I wouldn't say he was happy to do it.

[Kardwill]

Pretty sure that wasn't part of Belkar's objection. He was happy to visit prostitutes of varying genders when they were searching the cities around the Great Barren Desert for Draketooth. He just has issues with Vaarsuvius specifically.

They did? If you're referencing the stip I'm thinking about, I was under the impression that all 3 of the sex workers we saw were ladies (including the "go scaly, come daily" boobless lizardpeople)

Not that I think it would have deterred Belkar much. His opinion on other peoples' sexuality at the time appeared to be an inclusive "whatever will be most aggravating to the person I'm talking to"

[drazen]

So, obviously with the trip to the Oracle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), Belkar asked if he would cause the death of Roy, Miko, Miko's Horse, V or the Oracle, with the helpful "Yes" as the answer. Later on, the oracle explains (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) how Belkar was responsible for 'causing the death' of each of them (well, I suppose 'demonstrating' for the latter) but was interrupted when it came to "the elf".

I'm just wondering if there was any consensus on what could have been excused as V's 'death', assuming it's not something still to come.

"And as for the elf..."

My long-standing prediction has been that V will destroy the Crimson Mantle, permanently losing all of their spellcasting powers. The fiends probably won't see it coming, because it would be wildly out of character for someone obsessed with arcane power, but V might consider saving the world at great personal cost to be their first "amends" for their stunt killing all those dragons and draconic descendants. The ancient black dragon told V "Without your magic, you are nothing." It's just all too perfectly tragic to NOT be their ending. Elan gets a happy ending, which is probably most of the heroes living (except Belkar), but the heroes might not be happy. I suspect an epilogue would be V going to Inkyrius to relay the story of the Order's quest, maybe bringing the pirates to help back them up, and that it would maybe be left open-ended if they reconcile or not.

[Peelee]

"And as for the elf..."

My long-standing prediction has been that V will destroy the Crimson Mantle, permanently losing all of their spellcasting powers. The fiends probably won't see it coming, because it would be wildly out of character for someone obsessed with arcane power, but V might consider saving the world at great personal cost to be their first "amends" for their stunt killing all those dragons and draconic descendants. The ancient black dragon told V "Without your magic, you are nothing." It's just all too perfectly tragic to NOT be their ending. Elan gets a happy ending, which is probably most of the heroes living (except Belkar), but the heroes might not be happy. I suspect an epilogue would be V going to Inkyrius to relay the story of the Order's quest, maybe bringing the pirates to help back them up, and that it would maybe be left open-ended if they reconcile or not.

None of that addresses "and as for the elf..." though?

[drazen]

None of that addresses "and as for the elf..." though?

Sorry, accidentally deleted the point. A metaphorical (character) death. The Oracle's explanations were getting more and more ridiculous, with the previous one being "if we define death as..." so it would be the "death" of V, the elven wizard obsessed with arcane power, because there would be no more to be had. This is probably even less plausible a "death" than Miko's mount being stuck on another plane.

[gbaji]

Sorry, accidentally deleted the point. A metaphorical (character) death. The Oracle's explanations were getting more and more ridiculous, with the previous one being "if we define death as..." so it would be the "death" of V, the elven wizard obsessed with arcane power, because there would be no more to be had. This is probably even less plausible a "death" than Miko's mount being stuck on another plane.

I actually buy that as something the Oracle might have said, but honestly I'm not sure how the Crimson Mantle really fits in. There's nothing specific that Belkar has done that would lead to V taking this action (and that's setting aside the fact that V can't yet cast 9th level spells in the first place).

If we're going for that angle, I might go with "And since we've already established that Beklar caused the death of Roy, that further caused the need for Haley and Belkar to try to retrieve Roy's body, which resulted in the party being split up, which caused V to become more obsessed with magic means to find the missing party members, which caused V to be alone on the island, which lead to the ABD attack, and the need to make the deal with the Fiends, and lead to.... <massive character changes>". I'm not sure we even need to go to the extreme of V losing their magical abilities here. There's been enough change aleady. If there was a tarot reading in there, the death card could have firmly come up for V, and it could (via the previously contorted logic) be placed on Belkar's actions.

[Peelee]

Sorry, accidentally deleted the point. A metaphorical (character) death. The Oracle's explanations were getting more and more ridiculous, with the previous one being "if we define death as..." so it would be the "death" of V, the elven wizard obsessed with arcane power, because there would be no more to be had. This is probably even less plausible a "death" than Miko's mount being stuck on another plane.

That makes sense! I'm sure I've done the same thing before at some point.

[Gay Poro]

"And as for the elf..."

My long-standing prediction has been that V will destroy the Crimson Mantle, permanently losing all of their spellcasting powers. The fiends probably won't see it coming, because it would be wildly out of character for someone obsessed with arcane power, but V might consider saving the world at great personal cost to be their first "amends" for their stunt killing all those dragons and draconic descendants. The ancient black dragon told V "Without your magic, you are nothing." It's just all too perfectly tragic to NOT be their ending. Elan gets a happy ending, which is probably most of the heroes living (except Belkar), but the heroes might not be happy. I suspect an epilogue would be V going to Inkyrius to relay the story of the Order's quest, maybe bringing the pirates to help back them up, and that it would maybe be left open-ended if they reconcile or not.

Fun theory. I hadn't really considered that V might die, or go on to "redeem" themselves by sacrificing their magic. I almost think V being unable to redeem themselves would be better. How can they balance out the harm caused by killing all those beings? By destroying a gate's defences? Even sacrificing their magic will never counterbalance the scales.

To address "And as for the elf-" ... let's say I'd put a fiver on V dying. I'm not gonna break the bank on this, but I could see it happening