Why are BG3 martials so good

[Skrum]

If someone told me they homebrewed 5e to get rid of casting components and allow the players to rest essentially at will (including in inhospitable places), I'd think that would break the game wide open for complete spellcasting dominance. And yet - playing a fighter or barb feels pretty great in BG3. My main party is level 8 ATM and the only caster is a warlock - he's good and all, but the main show is an unbelievably tanky eldritch knight, a thrower barb/rogue, and a sharpshooting ranger.

Things I've thought of that reign in casters pretty well is range and terrain - the "battlemaps" of BG3 are very varied and often contain height. Line of sight is a huge factor, as is enemies spreading out too far for AoE to be viable. When playing IRL, there's often a good deal of player-favored laxness when it comes to Is That Guy In The Area. BG3 is the total opposite, being a computer and all.

I think that explains part of it, but I'm not sure it explains all of it. Any theories? Why do martials kicks so much butt?

[Segev]

A great deal of "caster supremacy" in D&D, in my experience, is due to white rooms. Whether assumptions by theorists, or actual in-game environments that are just another two-dimensional battle map with monsters and PCs running around, the combat side of it only tends to favor caSters in those circumstances. The more environment there is to work with, the more the more physically-inclined, martial characters shine.

Now, in terms of high level world-spanning power, the economy-affecting, terrain-changing magics of high level casters stand out differently. Scry-and-die tactics, I imagine, are not an option in BG3, simply because arbitrary scrying is likely not supported in its engine. I could be wrong, though! It really is a relatively narrow subset of high-level caster things that most caster supremacy arguments focus on, though.

And, if you have played the game all the way up to high levels, and been interacting with the world, I tend to find that all PCs develop a large amount of soft power they can wield, and it levels the playing field wrt magic even when the mages also have it. Because each player character's set of personalities, obligations, vassals, favors owed, and friendships will be different, so what they can all and each do will vary. Plans start to involve what allies and resources garnered in game can help and be brought to bear at least as much as direct capabilities of the PCs.

[GeneralVryth]

Magic items. Lots of good and powerful magic items. At least that is reason 1. The way most magic items work, martials just benefit from the more especially in combat.

The second reason, by nature of being a video game BG3 is less flexible for players. Less room for creativity (fewer spell options), also benefits martials because they do tend to be stronger in terms of raw statistics.


A great deal of "caster supremacy" in D&D, in my experience, is due to white rooms. Whether assumptions by theorists, or actual in-game environments that are just another two-dimensional battle map with monsters and PCs running around, the combat side of it only tends to favor caSters in those circumstances. The more environment there is to work with, the more the more physically-inclined, martial characters shine.


I would second this as well.

[clash]

I think controlling a whole team has a large effect on this as well. Martials have always been really good at combat, but when you only have one character and you feel useless as everyone else takes the stage the other 50% of the time while also contributing in combat,that's when you see the difference. When you're controlling a team, you don't care if your fighter can't open a chest or cant fly up to get the thing or teleport etc. You have someone else that can.

[Unoriginal]

If someone told me they homebrewed 5e to get rid of casting components and allow the players to rest essentially at will (including in inhospitable places), I'd think that would break the game wide open for complete spellcasting dominance. And yet - playing a fighter or barb feels pretty great in BG3. My main party is level 8 ATM and the only caster is a warlock - he's good and all, but the main show is an unbelievably tanky eldritch knight, a thrower barb/rogue, and a sharpshooting ranger.

Things I've thought of that reign in casters pretty well is range and terrain - the "battlemaps" of BG3 are very varied and often contain height. Line of sight is a huge factor, as is enemies spreading out too far for AoE to be viable. When playing IRL, there's often a good deal of player-favored laxness when it comes to Is That Guy In The Area. BG3 is the total opposite, being a computer and all.

I think that explains part of it, but I'm not sure it explains all of it. Any theories? Why do martials kicks so much butt?

Martials always kick butts in 5e.

However, Baldur's Gate 3 also has quite a few quality-of-life improvements that shine more on martials, some subclass and rule revisions that benefit martials in particular, and doesn't have a DM with conscious or subconscious magic supremacy bias.

Add that to the fact many of the things that caster supremacists will argue make casters supreme are non-factors (ex: Leomund's Tiny Hutt for long rests and Teleport for transport), and the fact the characters won't be of a high enough level to take the few actually busted spells, and you have your answer.

[Mastikator]

Several factors

Spells are nerfed, some open ended spells (dispel magic) are not present in the game, others are curtailed (call lightning). Some spells are also just weaker. The best spells are still CC
More magic items, this tends to favor martials who are dependent on multiple factors
Weapon use is buffed, anyone with proficiency in a weapon has a couple of 1/short rest special attacks.
Some martials are buffed, open hand monk for instance gets free damage on unarmed strike that is not present in any rulebook, berserkers do no longer suffer exhaustion
Common actions are buffed, shove is a bonus action and the distance increases with strength meaning any strong character can always use that option to reposition enemies
More environment to interact with, several battle locations have hazards, exploding barrels. These efficiently be used by high strength characters to great effect.
Consumables are good and cheap. No longer does alchemist fire deal 1d4 to 1 target at the cost of 50gp, it's now about 3gp and can affect multiple enemies, and with more flammable/explodable environment can be used very effectively.
Potions are plentiful, especially with potion crafting.



-

As has been noted though, martials do kick ass. IMO there is no difference in power in T1 between martials and casters, and only slight difference in T2. It's T3 and T4 where casters run amok. BG3 takes place almost entirely within T1 and T2. Only in the very end do you reach T3 and there are some extremely powerful (and buffed) spells for casters, but by then your martials will have some 10+ very good magic items that synchronize more than they do on casters (some magic missile nuke wizard builds not-withstanding).

[Zevox]

Things I've thought of that reign in casters pretty well is range and terrain - the "battlemaps" of BG3 are very varied and often contain height. Line of sight is a huge factor, as is enemies spreading out too far for AoE to be viable. When playing IRL, there's often a good deal of player-favored laxness when it comes to Is That Guy In The Area. BG3 is the total opposite, being a computer and all.
One thing to note on this is that many spells' AoE has been nerfed in BG3. Fireball and Cone of Cold are notable examples for instance, both being about half the size that they are in normal D&D.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm not sure if the maths are the same in the release version, but in the early access the "loaded dice" option (enabled by default) was very advantageous to martial characters.

It basically increased the chances of success of rolls (especially after a sequence of failures), making it easier overhaul to hit with attacks and easier to save against spells.

And that was significant, like between +2 and +4 to the average roll (though the exact numbers likely changed with the release).

[J-H]

They already kick butt in 5e, unless you're whiteroom theorycrafting, or unless you're running a bunch of low-save brutes.

I'm currently running a series of combats: 1 20th level NPC built with PC creation rules, vs. a party of 4x 11th level characters.
20th level druid starting at 300' with foresight: The cleric had to spend time running, and having a summoned celestial shoot.
The wizard was the battle taxi, casting Dimension Door and then doing Dispel magic.
The archer did some shooting but was also pretty far away.
The Paladin got taxi'd there by the wizard, then laid down the smites.

20th level Samurai with vorpal sword:
The cleric got beheaded. The Paladin and the archer stacked damage while the Paladin (sentinel) tanked. The wizard used Bigby's Hand for self-protection and tried Disintegrate, but the Samurai made his save. Smites did most of the damage.

20th level barbarian:
He has magic resistance. We're on round 3 or 4 and no spells have landed successfully. Damage has mostly been archery and smites.

The casters are not responsible for the majority of damage thus far.

[Jophiel]

Several factors

Consumables are good and cheap. No longer does alchemist fire deal 1d4 to 1 target at the cost of 50gp, it's now about 3gp and can affect multiple enemies, and with more flammable/explodable environment can be used very effectively.



Also weapon dipping where you just poke your sword at some fire and get a flaming sword that does extra damage.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

A great deal of "caster supremacy" in D&D, in my experience, is due to white rooms. Whether assumptions by theorists, or actual in-game environments that are just another two-dimensional battle map with monsters and PCs running around, the combat side of it only tends to favor caSters in those circumstances. The more environment there is to work with, the more the more physically-inclined, martial characters shine.

Now, in terms of high level world-spanning power, the economy-affecting, terrain-changing magics of high level casters stand out differently. Scry-and-die tactics, I imagine, are not an option in BG3, simply because arbitrary scrying is likely not supported in its engine. I could be wrong, though! It really is a relatively narrow subset of high-level caster things that most caster supremacy arguments focus on, though.

And, if you have played the game all the way up to high levels, and been interacting with the world, I tend to find that all PCs develop a large amount of soft power they can wield, and it levels the playing field wrt magic even when the mages also have it. Because each player character's set of personalities, obligations, vassals, favors owed, and friendships will be different, so what they can all and each do will vary. Plans start to involve what allies and resources garnered in game can help and be brought to bear at least as much as direct capabilities of the PCs.

It's not that 5e Casters have toys. It's that 5e Martials don't.

Which, technically, there are only 2... Fighter and Rogue, others all have magical features. So actual martial characters, non-magicals, are a minute section of the game.

White room or not, that's the problem. Play a Fighter or Rogue and your options are severely limited relative to other players that are using magical classes (casters, half-casters, and magical types like Barbarian and Monk).

Fighters are really good at their job of killing things. Rogues are great at their job at picking things off. More so than even their magical counterparts of Barbarian and Monk a lot of times.

Most people don't seem to care if a wizard is uber strong, they just want their character to have effective options other than "I move and attack". Taking away the wizard won't change this.

Core 4e Fighters are considered the gold standard for a lot of ppl but the thing is that they're also "I move and attack" it's just that those attack vary a lot.

So, while I detest the white room, I don't think that's what this is about when ppl have issues with martials and magical (non-full casters that have magic abilities).

[Amnestic]

The above stuff people have mentioned is all correct. I will also add:-
Martials have always done consistent damage just fine, the primary complaints are "they're boring" (because you just attack and have no other variation) and "they have no wider flexibility".

There are some minor quibbles here and there (barbarian weakness to fear, monk squishiness) but the core martial experience (doing damage) is fine.

BG3 is able to deploy far more "easy" and "medium" encounters (where martials feel like they shine by deleting enemies with a right click) than tabletop because their encounters are naturally faster paced than TT. Them being "boring" is irrelevant, because chances are most people are playing solo, so even if Lae'zel just right clicks her way to victory, you've still got Shadowheart, Gale, and Wyll to add some variety to your decisionmaking. There's no worry about your turn solely being "I attack"->wait 15 minutes for the turn to get back to you->"I attack" since you're playing by yourself (most of the time, I'm aware of co-op).

BG3's instant short rests at the click of a button also helps. There's no concern about pacing, random encounters from resting, or anything of the sort that you have to worry about in tabletop. You click a button, everyone gets 50% health and all their short rest stuff back. Fighters+monks(+warlocks) are thrilled!

Being able to throw enemies at each other (especially as a barbarian, such as Karlach) also helps break up the variety of things, giving your dumb strength martials an abundant repositioning tool that is immensely funny to use, along with being generally useful. While its damage is typically a little lower than a direct attack (especially late game) it can force enemies prone or, in some cases, lob them into bottomless pits.

Yeah you miss out on their loot but also, instant kill.



We're on round 3 or 4 and no spells have landed successfully.

My dice are a cruel mistress.

[OldTrees1]

1) How frequently are you actually resting in BG3?
Short rests are rationed to 2 per long rest. Long rests require the hassle of going back to camp (which can interrupt flow). As such I tend to delay resting in BG3 which pushes me towards Martials (including Rogue) and Warlock rather than casters. It is also why I use a Life Domain cleric for more short rest healing instead of relying on the long rest spell slots (similar to a divine Warlock). I am less likely to short or long rest in BG3 than I am in 5E.

2) It is a CRPG, the exploration pillar is heavily curtailed.
This is not to say BG3 does not reward exploration. You are heavily encouraged to explore. However what exploration challenges did you face? In general you could get somewhere before you would have otherwise gotten there. This means exploration spells like Feather Fall, Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door, etc are not as valuable as they otherwise could be. On the other hand gear like rope is not as valuable as it otherwise could be either. While all characters were nerfed in this area, the exploration pillar was one of the areas martials had been further behind. Since the exploration pillar was deemphasized, martials look a bit better.

3) Play speed.
A warlock can win a fight with Hunger of Hadar (did this once in Act 3 Honor mode). However that is slow. The most exciting thing in BG3 is the start/end of encounters. The middle of the encounter and the time between interesting things (see comment about resting again) is less exciting. So multiple martials quickly ending a fight is likely to be more appealing than a single caster winning with a spell + time.

4) Itemization is biased towards martials in BG3.
Anyone can use spell scrolls. My whole party uses Invisibility, Dimension Door, or Globe of Invulnerability (unique BG3 effect: We are immune to damage).
Lots of items scale with extra attack. Including ones that trigger off of elemental damage, provide the martial has access to that elemental damage.

5) Martials got buffed.
While it is pure coincidence, every time I play through BG3, someone informs me of a martial buff inapplicable to my playthrough that inspires my next playthrough. Thief Rogue, Open Hand Monk, Berserker Barbarian, diluting Warlock with Fighter 5 for Extra Extra Attack. That last one is technically a Warlock 6 buff, but it is encouraging me to reduce my Warlock's casting in favor of a martial buff.

6) Martials mundane weapons got buffed.
There are a slew of short rest weapon special attacks. I ignore them due to my preference for at-will abilities, but others value them.

7) The OP builds look like martials
Tavern Brawler, even on a Druid, resembles a martial during play.
Greater Invisibility "not enter initiative" archer resembles a martial during play.
Anything using Thief 3 probably resembles a martial during play. (Or at least my Warlock / Thief 3 resembled an archer using Eldritch Blast and Hand Crossbows)

[Kane0]

- Magic gear
- Buff stacking
- Limited ranges
- Weapon Maneuvers
- Action Economy and turn-syncing
- Conditions and environmentals

[Dalinar]

I don't really agree that exploration is deemphasized. Probably depends on your DM, but there's a lot of wild stuff you can do. If it's a point where BG3's balance feels better than 5e, it's probably because you're controlling multiple party members and probably have someone good at any given task the game sets in front of you--sort of like why playing a low-CHA character can sometimes feel bad in social encounters in 5e.

That aside, the other minor bit I'll throw out here is jumping. Having a bonus action jump that eats a small amount of your movement but moves you an amount based on your strength score comes up constantly, whether you're trying to avoid having to dash in combat or if you're just trying to get over a gap. Between that, the reworked shove mechanics, Tavern Brawler being really strong, and encumbrance (which is in 5e but rarely used because it's fiddly to track by hand), strength score is much more valuable than in 5e, which adds to the value of the classes that can use it.

As for Rogues, just play Thief with two hand crossbows and Sharpshooter and you'll never lack for damage, especially given certain poisons can give all of those attacks very deadly riders--and there are plenty of opportunities for Stealth and Sleight of Hand presented throughout the game, so that's covered. Lastly there is Monk, which benefits from instant short rests and from the magic item deficit they've historically suffered from in 5e getting addressed. I played four elements and thought it was okay, but that was the first week or two of release and I don't know how the metagame has shifted since then.

Also just straight-up capping the levels at 12 and rebalancing or not implementing certain problem spells goes a long way. Spellcasters aren't broken, certain spells are, and just about every list has at least a few. The BG3 team had the benefit of hindsight there.

[AvatarVecna]

They made initiative reliable, made shoving a bonus action, and gave everybody a better version of Spare The Dying for free.

Every weapon, magic or otherwise, has a special attack giving it an AoE or imposing a condition or something similar. Magic weapons have the nonmagic options but also tend to have an option special to that specific magic weapon that's even cooler. Also, the game drowns you in magic arrows that are at the very least competing with low-level spells for coolness, and everybody is assumed to have infinite amounts of normal ammunition, without having any issues carrying those bottomless quivers.

They cut out all spells 7th-9th, cut out a bunch of spells lvl 0th-6th, nerfed the range on basically all combat spells, nerfed the area on many popular combat spells.

Haste gives you an extra action per turn. Thief gives you an extra bonus action per turn. Bloodlust gives you an extra action per turn as long as you kill somebody (which you will, how could you not with all these actions to spend murdering people).

The game absolutely drowns you in magic items, and the pro-martial ones tend to be more upfront while the pro-caster ones are pretty late-game. You wouldn't be able to take advantage of all those items if the game also didn't also let you equip and benefit from up to 12 magic items at a time. This lends credence to my longstanding belief that attunement limits are bull**** that just keep the little guy down. Also the best BG3 magic items are just plain cooler than basically anything you're gonna find in the tabletop.

Here's a BG3 item...


Armor Of Persistence
Armor (plate), Very Rare

While wearing this armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and a +1d4 bonus on all saving throws. Additionally, you gain resistance to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage, and reduces the damage from any blow by 2 (to a minimum of 0).

...and here's a 5e item.


Dwarven Plate
Armor (plate), Very Rare

While wearing this armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC. In addition, if an effect moves you against your will along the ground, you can use your reaction to reduce the distance you are moved by up to 10 feet.

Here's a BG3 item...


Skinburster
Weapon (halberd), Uncommon

Whenever you hit with this +1 Halberd, you gain two stacks of Force Conduit. You lose a stack whenever your turn ends, and can't have more than 7 stacks at a time.


Force Conduit
Reduce the damage from any blow by the number of stacks you currently have (to a minimum of 0). If you get dealt damage while you have more than 5 stacks, you explode as a nonaction, dealing 1d4 force damage to all creatures within 20 ft (no save to resist, no roll against AC, just eat **** losers).

...and here's a 5e item.


Shatterspike
Weapon (longsword), Uncommon (requires attunement)

You have a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls you make with this magic weapon. If it hits an object, the hit is automatically a critical hit, and it can deal bludgeoning or slashing damage to the object (your choice). Further, damage from nonmagical sources can't harm the weapon.

Here's a BG3 item...


Ring Of Regeneration
Ring, Very Rare

At the beginning of your turn, you heal 1d4 hit points.

...and here's a 5e item.


Ring Of Regeneration
Ring, Very Rare (requires attunement)

While wearing this ring, you regain 1d6 hit points every 10 minutes, provided that you have at least 1 hit point. If you lose a body part, the ring causes the missing part to regrow and return to full functionality after 1d6 + 1 days if you have at least 1 hit point the whole time.

If any of these BG3 items had been posted in the homebrew subforum a decade ago, the poster would've been burned at the stake for crimes of blatant power-wanking. And BG3 drowns you in enough for every character in your party to have a dozen bull**** items.

[OldTrees1]

I don't really agree that exploration is deemphasized. Probably depends on your DM, but there's a lot of wild stuff you can do. If it's a point where BG3's balance feels better than 5e, it's probably because you're controlling multiple party members and probably have someone good at any given task the game sets in front of you--sort of like why playing a low-CHA character can sometimes feel bad in social encounters in 5e.

Compared to other CRPGs, BG3 does emphasize the exploration pillar*. There is a lot to see, and an impressive amount you can do.

Hmm. You are right it probably depends on your DM. I usually run sandbox campaigns and I really like the exploration pillar. So my TTRPG expectations are quite a bit higher than my CRPG standard for the exploration pillar. So my comparison was probably more unfair than I intended.


*The Legend of Grimrock 2 has a similar focus on the exploration pillar despite approaching it in a dramatically different way. Recommended fan made campaigns after the base game: Lost City -> The Guardians -> Final Adventure.

[Jerrykhor]

There's many reasons why martials are so good, but i think these here are the ones that have the most impact:

1. Luck of the Far Realms. Crit when you want is a big thing, the once per long rest limitation is not significant since food is plenty for resting.
2. Some magic items are busted. Risky Ring, Phalar Aluve, Raphael's armour, Titanstring bow... you know them.
3. Mechanics. Crit range stacking, DRS, etc. All make dealing damage easier.
4. Magic arrows. There's a reason my Astarion is an absolute monster. Sure, he's got the killer build, Swords bard 6 Ranger 4 Fighter 2, but its the Slaying arrows (and make it crit with LotFR) that helps me demolish bosses in 1 round. Who thought that making it straight up double damage with no save is a good idea?
For the mooks, he's got Arrow of Many Targets. Broken. Casters? Arcane Interference. People standing near ledges? Roaring Thunder. Need to teleport? Transposition.

When we are saying martials are good, its mostly the ranged martials. High ground, magic arrows and changes to crossbows make them a death dealing machine. Oh, and also Prone does not receive disadvantage to ranged attacks.

[OldTrees1]

When we are saying martials are good, its mostly the ranged martials. High ground, magic arrows and changes to crossbows make them a death dealing machine. Oh, and also Prone does not receive disadvantage to ranged attacks.

I would not say "it is mostly ranged martials". Rogue, Berserker, Great Weapon Master, or Tavern Brawler in melee are good. Especially Tavern Brawler.

Thanks for mentioning the special arrows though. I plan to use that for my jack of all playthough. It is that big a buff.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Compared to other CRPGs, BG3 does emphasize the exploration pillar*. There is a lot to see, and an impressive amount you can do.

Hmm. You are right it probably depends on your DM. I usually run sandbox campaigns and I really like the exploration pillar. So my TTRPG expectations are quite a bit higher than my CRPG standard for the exploration pillar. So my comparison was probably more unfair than I intended.


*The Legend of Grimrock 2 has a similar focus on the exploration pillar despite approaching it in a dramatically different way. Recommended fan made campaigns after the base game: Lost City -> The Guardians -> Final Adventure.

No matter how it stacks up to other videogames, BG3 emphasises exploration waaaaay more than 5e. By that I mean there are actual rules in place that a player can know that their character knows.

Like, 5e (and other WotC D&D) have always put the bare minimum into social and exploration pillars bc "eh, the DM can figure it out".

So, yeah, martials will feel much better because you have a baseline understanding of how the world works and how it always will work.

[OldTrees1]

No matter how it stacks up to other videogames, BG3 emphasises exploration waaaaay more than 5e. By that I mean there are actual rules in place that a player can know that their character knows.

Like, 5e (and other WotC D&D) have always put the bare minimum into social and exploration pillars bc "eh, the DM can figure it out".

So, yeah, martials will feel much better because you have a baseline understanding of how the world works and how it always will work.

I agree with this too! The minimal effort the rulebooks put into the exploration pillar places a large burden on the DM when the DM wants to use that pillar.

Knowing my BG3 character can't swim doesn't really help emphasize the exploration pillar beyond letting me know I won't need to swim. However knowing exactly what jumps my character can/can't make (BG3's equivalent to climbing) informs me of which cliffs are walls and which are ladders. This has come in handy a few times as an alternate way to navigate.

[Skrum]

There's many reasons why martials are so good, but i think these here are the ones that have the most impact:

1. Luck of the Far Realms. Crit when you want is a big thing, the once per long rest limitation is not significant since food is plenty for resting.
2. Some magic items are busted. Risky Ring, Phalar Aluve, Raphael's armour, Titanstring bow... you know them.
3. Mechanics. Crit range stacking, DRS, etc. All make dealing damage easier.
4. Magic arrows. There's a reason my Astarion is an absolute monster. Sure, he's got the killer build, Swords bard 6 Ranger 4 Fighter 2, but its the Slaying arrows (and make it crit with LotFR) that helps me demolish bosses in 1 round. Who thought that making it straight up double damage with no save is a good idea?
For the mooks, he's got Arrow of Many Targets. Broken. Casters? Arcane Interference. People standing near ledges? Roaring Thunder. Need to teleport? Transposition.

When we are saying martials are good, its mostly the ranged martials. High ground, magic arrows and changes to crossbows make them a death dealing machine. Oh, and also Prone does not receive disadvantage to ranged attacks.

I agree about the ranged characters when it comes to damage. I've got one character set up with risky ring, sharpshooter, and lots of magical arrows and the damage is just automatic.

But the real damage dealer of my party is the berserker barb thrower. 4 attacks a round from fast hands with an absurd attack roll thanks to tavern brawler thrown item shenanigans. [Karlach] does, reliably, 80+ damage a round with good range. And she's tanky to boot.

My Tav is the tank and serves up 100 hit points, 24 AC, the shield spell, second wind, misty step, a host of illithid powers (just got fly!); he's nearly unhurtable and can maneuver to wherever he wants.

----------

The more I think about, I think the itemization is probably the biggest factor. There's just so much interesting, synergistic gear to find and put together, and the fact that characters can be respect'd for nearly free means any new thing can be used on its ideal build.

Items, and curbing spell power.

[Jerrykhor]

I would not say "it is mostly ranged martials". Rogue, Berserker, Great Weapon Master, or Tavern Brawler in melee are good. Especially Tavern Brawler.

Thanks for mentioning the special arrows though. I plan to use that for my jack of all playthough. It is that big a buff.

Yes but ranged builds are still superior. They can use 1 melee weapon/1 shield or 2 melee weapons as stat sticks, whereas melee builds only have 1 ranged weapon as a stat stick, and ranged weapons usually have poorer stats. Rhapsody is just too busted as a stat stick, and it also works for magic (Eldritch blast build). They also dont need to invest in movement speed to be effective.

The only melee build that is equal or better is TB OHmonk/Thief rogue.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a ring that puts 2 points of acid on all your attacks, and gloves that cause anyone hurt by your acid damage to have a small AoE acid aura for a few turns that only hurts enemies. I put those on my Champ 5/Thief 3 Astarion as soon as I had them, and he's just spamming 4 crossbow shots constantly. Big enemies go down quick cuz he can focus them, crowds fall victim to the endless fart clouds he's forcing them to carry around. And I couldn't do that combo if I had to deal with attunement limits, because you need magic weapons in order to not be handicapped against a large portion of enemies, and basically all magic weapons in 5e require attunement.

[LudicSavant]

BG3 includes heavy rebalancing of 5e courtesy of Larian, be it Fireball having a much tinier area of effect (it's closer in size to Shatter than the original 5e Fireball), or Tavern Brawler being far superior to GWM, or surfaces and various control effects no longer stacking, or high ground attack bonuses being incredibly easy to get, or jump giving everyone a bonus action move, or a completely new itemization system, or maneuvers on weapons, or a powerful alchemy system, or abundant powerful consumables, or thrown weapons becoming far better, or a lot of class features being added or changed, or quite a few spells being completely reworked or outright removed, or rewriting the initiative system, and so on and so forth.

It's not any one single thing. There's a lot of buffs and nerfs and changes that considerably shake up the balance of 5e.

[tokek]

And, if you have played the game all the way up to high levels, and been interacting with the world, I tend to find that all PCs develop a large amount of soft power they can wield, and it levels the playing field wrt magic even when the mages also have it. Because each player character's set of personalities, obligations, vassals, favors owed, and friendships will be different, so what they can all and each do will vary. Plans start to involve what allies and resources garnered in game can help and be brought to bear at least as much as direct capabilities of the PCs.

This is a great point and one that is rarely brought up. Perhaps because so much tier 4 content that gets discussed is actually "testing" one-shots where the player has not spent 2 years building their character into the world like they would in a campaign

Why was my Ranger/Rogue not worried about Scry and Die enemy tactics? Because he was a high ranking Harper and could draw on the help of Harper casters to protect him from it. Teleport spell was not that big a deal when the another member of the party had a friend with a skyship that could transport us all. etc

A high level character should be far more than what is in the class description if you have actually played them to that level. They are 2 or more years of accumulated encounters, negotiations, alliances etc. So in addition to the frequently mentioned concerns about white room analysis we should add that it excludes all of the soft power effects of real gameplay that do a huge amount to level the playing field especially in those out of combat matters. A white room one-shot does not reflect the core game experience of campaign play at all well and especially not at higher levels.

[Cikomyr2]

Haste not being limited to +1 attack for a martial class is also a big game changer.

More things to do with the bonus action.

More variety of attacks.

[Hael]

Its worth comparing Solasta to BG3. The former (with mods) is much closer to vanilla RAW tabletop. Even there its fundamentally advantageous to martials by the nature of the map/ai design, but in contrast to BG3 its clear that casters dominate after the early levels. If you play on the highest difficulties and play with mods that increase the amount of enemies, past a certain point you can only win scenarios if you decrease the amount of martials in your party. Your optimized barbarian/monk/fighter is just not going to get it done anymore.

My experience in tabletop is that in very deadly dungeon crawls (the type our DM runs) its even more caster dominated than that due to the creative factor of spells.

However the root cause of the imbalance at the end of the day comes down to a bunch of small effects that compound. The primary is that if you nerf overtuned spells (shield, spike growth, hypnotic pattern, summoning etc), things get very equal very quickly. A lot of the very overtuned multiclass builds, rely on stacking things like shield+armor dips, strong dip passives, along with spamming reaction spells and powerful situational spells, and it leads to a sense of invulnerability that is difficult to counter.

But if you remove or nerf any 1 component in there, then its a bit like a house of cards. For instance without the shield spell reaction, even an AC 19-20 wizard is not going to have a good time if a host of archers start going after them.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Haste not being limited to +1 attack for a martial class is also a big game changer.

More things to do with the bonus action.

More variety of attacks.

Thing is, Haste doesn't make the martial better, they get to do the same thing as before. Their options are just as limited or flexible, they just get to do what they already do more often.

Martials are already good at stabbing things, stabbing them more isn't really an improvement on their class (3e and 5e Fighter are shafted bc they get extra attacks).

Even spells like fly is just the spellcaster, or magic item, being good and the martial is along for the ride.

The class itself need

[Amnestic]

Being able to see enemy health pools is also a change which I actually think benefits martials over their tabletop version.

I expect most tables don't give enemy hit points out, which means that when martials are doing damage (which is, as noted, their main thing, their bread and butter) it can sometimes feel like wailing on a meat sack until they suddenly fall over. Your DM might give health indications ("bloodied", "not very injured", "on death's door") of their own volition or if prompted, but knowing how much you're doing and how close they are to falling over will help with feelings of accomplishment.

That's not to say I'm suggesting DMs start giving out health numbers (though some do, and that's fine too - I don't) just that knowing is another thing which 'helps' when added to all the other stuff in the thread.

[Cikomyr2]

Thing is, Haste doesn't make the martial better, they get to do the same thing as before. Their options are just as limited or flexible, they just get to do what they already do more often.

Martials are already good at stabbing things, stabbing them more isn't really an improvement on their class (3e and 5e Fighter are shafted bc they get extra attacks).

Even spells like fly is just the spellcaster, or magic item, being good and the martial is along for the ride.

The class itself need

Haste potions
Fly potions
Haste scrolls

All of these are in abundance in BG3 that allow martial character not to rely on a crutch caster for buffs.

[Frozenstep]

Thing is, Haste doesn't make the martial better, they get to do the same thing as before. Their options are just as limited or flexible, they just get to do what they already do more often.

Martials are already good at stabbing things, stabbing them more isn't really an improvement on their class (3e and 5e Fighter are shafted bc they get extra attacks).

Even spells like fly is just the spellcaster, or magic item, being good and the martial is along for the ride.

The class itself need

Even without the fact that potions of speed are very common and only cost a bonus action to drink, being able to better take advantage of party members buffing you is an improvement. Better to get value through the actions of another party member than for them to think it's not even worth spending the action and spell slot on you and instead just throwing another fireball.

But anyway, speaking of other actions, Elixirs are another huge help for martial classes. Of course, there's stuff that helps everyone (elixir of vigilance is insane), and the ones that give back spell slots are okay if you can't rest (although there's potions for that, too). But there are some real winners that really help martials. Cloud giant strength (27 strength), viciousness (increased crit range), and my party's favorite and always in too-short supply: Bloodlust (1/turn kill a foe to get an action and 5 temp hp). Insane stuff, and they all last till long rest.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Even without the fact that potions of speed are very common and only cost a bonus action to drink, being able to better take advantage of party members buffing you is an improvement. Better to get value through the actions of another party member than for them to think it's not even worth spending the action and spell slot on you and instead just throwing another fireball.

But anyway, speaking of other actions, Elixirs are another huge help for martial classes. Of course, there's stuff that helps everyone (elixir of vigilance is insane), and the ones that give back spell slots are okay if you can't rest (although there's potions for that, too). But there are some real winners that really help martials. Cloud giant strength (27 strength), viciousness (increased crit range), and my party's favorite and always in too-short supply: Bloodlust (1/turn kill a foe to get an action and 5 temp hp). Insane stuff, and they all last till long rest.

Improvement for the one buffing you, the martial is basically the spellcaster's minion if said martial is that reliant on the spellcaster.

This is a whole thing in 3e and to a lesser extent 5e (since non-magicals can be at least good at one thing in 5e w/o help).

It just shows the failings of martials that they have to rely on outside sources to be "better". It's not the class being better but the loot drops/item system and spellcasters.

Trickle down vancianomics actually happens in D&D. But the non-magicals are still the have nots.

[tokek]

Thing is, Haste doesn't make the martial better, they get to do the same thing as before. Their options are just as limited or flexible, they just get to do what they already do more often.

Martials are already good at stabbing things, stabbing them more isn't really an improvement on their class (3e and 5e Fighter are shafted bc they get extra attacks).

Even spells like fly is just the spellcaster, or magic item, being good and the martial is along for the ride.

The class itself need

There are all sorts of subclasses that add juice. The problem with these discussions is that at some point they are declared not sufficiently pure martial. So we get to a couple of points

1. We are now discussing a limited subset of subclasses of only 4 classes in the game. Very few choices, even fewer multiclass combinations as a proportion of the whole
2. These subclasses have a role and appeal to some players - I don't think its worth taking these very few options out of the game just because someone can point to them as a balance problem. Because mostly the players who like them don't care about that stuff
3. It ignores the whole rest of the game; magic items, alliances, race choice etc. It assumes that you play only your character sheet and even then only what you can derive from the PHB ignoring the rest of the game.

The class itself generally has all sorts of fruity options. Its a player decision not to choose to take them. Plus of course there are feats and a couple of the martial classes get more of those.

[Zevox]

I think a more pertinent point about Haste in BG3 would be that it also benefits casters just as much, since it now allows them to cast two action spells in a single turn.

For that matter, casters also had the restriction against casting an action and bonus action spell above cantrip level in the same turn removed in BG3. The game is just a lot more permissive on action economy in general than ordinary 5e, which makes everyone more powerful.

[Frozenstep]

Improvement for the one buffing you, the martial is basically the spellcaster's minion if said martial is that reliant on the spellcaster.

This is a whole thing in 3e and to a lesser extent 5e (since non-magicals can be at least good at one thing in 5e w/o help).

It just shows the failings of martials that they have to rely on outside sources to be "better". It's not the class being better but the loot drops/item system and spellcasters.

Trickle down vancianomics actually happens in D&D. But the non-magicals are still the have nots.

If you just want to look at martials on their own in some sort of vacuum, then feel free. BG3 didn't change too much about how the class itself works. But in the context of bg3, Larian has added a lot of things that just make picking a martial class for a playthrough a perfectly good and fun choice. The items, the kinds of enemies, the challenges thrown at the player, they all combine to make things work out better then it does in tabletop. There's no need for a fly spell to get over a river or valley, there's no need for pass without trace to sneak, there's easy access to ranged healing via throwing potions, and there's no need for long range teleportation spells. The "one thing they're good at" is 90% of the challenge the game throws at you.

And if they buffed some teamwork options, then its to the benefit of both caster and martial. Lot of classes support one another, but none of it makes classes reliant or minions.


I think a more pertinent point about Haste in BG3 would be that it also benefits casters just as much, since it now allows them to cast two action spells in a single turn.


It is a good point that haste also benefits casters, but in turn it also means doubling your resource expenditure, unless you're just going to be using the extra actions to cast cantrips, at which point you may as well have given it to a martial for the damage that would deal. There's plenty of exceptions, of course, there's some ways to really juice cantrip damage, as well as spell combos that are efficient like rain+cold/lightning, but it depends on how they're built and their items, same with martials. It's just very easy to see huge value without extra resource expenditure on a martial.

Of course, you can rest as much as you can steal food in BG3, so you can just get the spell slots back. But in the games I've played, I found people surprisingly incentivized to try and avoid long resting too often, to the point where in many games we've had to do some extra long rests at the end of an act just to get certain story events to happen. Elixirs and a lot of unique until-long-rest buffs just seem to make people try and stretch things out.

[Pex]

I think controlling a whole team has a large effect on this as well. Martials have always been really good at combat, but when you only have one character and you feel useless as everyone else takes the stage the other 50% of the time while also contributing in combat,that's when you see the difference. When you're controlling a team, you don't care if your fighter can't open a chest or cant fly up to get the thing or teleport etc. You have someone else that can.

This. No one is yelling Astarion is disarming all the traps and opening all the locked chests and doors. The one game where I didn't play with Astarion on purpose just to play with different characters I regretted it at every locked chest and door. No one complains Shadowheart is not healing because everyone is Shadowheart, everyone's hit points are inflated, you can drink a healing potion as a bonus action, and short rest whenever you want at no cost in time.

Baldur's Gate plays with 5E rules, but the dynamics of the game are significantly different than table top. It is apples & oranges. Lucky you I guess if your DM will physically roleplay an NPC like Halsin's love scene.

[LudicSavant]

This. No one is yelling Astarion is disarming all the traps and opening all the locked chests and doors. The one game where I didn't play with Astarion on purpose just to play with different characters I regretted it at every locked chest and door.

I never played with Astarion and doors and traps were basically a non-obstacle on the highest difficulty.

[Winthur]

Historically, most party-based cRPGs based on Dungeons & Dragons generally favor a martial-heavy party. About the only exception I can think of is Icewind Dale 2, and that's because you are encouraged to run multiple Clerics in lieu of any Fighter class, since Clerics can do everything and are the premier "whack things" class. (In turn, Icewind Dale 1 is the opposite and the game really wants you to run a bruiser company with token spellcaster support).

Multiple reasons have been touched on in this thread. I would add that a lot of items possess strong on-hit spell like effects that might be unheard of in a standard tabletop loot table, and any notion of balanced wealth goes out of the window when you can tackle any place whenever you want and all the sidequests have preplaced goodies.

Most of the encounters are really just about opening a can and dealing a lot of damage to it, and if you want to do that without asking a lot of questions, then cRPGs just don't ask any. Any situations you might have read about in tier lists about how a dragon may fly and render your fighter useless just don't apply.

[Mastikator]

I never played with Astarion and doors and traps were basically a non-obstacle on the highest difficulty.

Lockpickable doors can be bashed or cut down, and items inside chests survive when you destroy the trapped chest. It's one of the things I like about BG3 that I wish was more common in tabletop: give objects hit points so I can destroy them (or know what it would take).

[Amnestic]

Lockpickable doors can be bashed or cut down, and items inside chests survive when you destroy the trapped chest. It's one of the things I like about BG3 that I wish was more common in tabletop: give objects hit points so I can destroy them (or know what it would take).

In fairness, they do all have HP in tabletop, but in my experience players are loathe to risk breaking down doors (it's noisy!) or smashing open treasure chests (for risk of destroying valuable items inside - coinage might be fine, but if a potion gets smashed and leaks on your scrolls...)

[Bundin]

In 5e, martials have few toys. In BG3, there are many, and most can be used by any class. Toss a bottle of grease, then an alchemists fire as a martial: stuff happens! Use the (excellent) weapon abilities, only available when proficient: stuff happens! Lots of scrolls (anyone can use!), potions, elixirs, and magic items that generally do more for martials than for casters and the gap is bridged.

A caster can still do more damage with leveled spells, or apply conditions for longer periods of time, but the fighter can also grease up the floor and set some enemies on fire. Or daze the big bad thing for a round. Not with 8d6 damage attached to the action, but still: stuff happens :) The martial may use that scroll of X, but it's one use only. No scroll, no magic. But the option is there, so it breaks the monotony of 'I hit it with my polearm 3x'.

And it's all fine, because it's a single player game. I am happy with my bard rocking a shortbow that allows him to cast hunter's mark. At the table, I'd be one miffed ranger if my class specific feature got spread around like that.

[Ignimortis]

I think that explains part of it, but I'm not sure it explains all of it. Any theories? Why do martials kicks so much butt?

1) No attunement slots and LOTS of great magic items, sometimes highly busted by 5e standards. You can get a +3 set of armor with several amazing extra properties...at level 10 or so. Same for weapons. My level 11 BG3 Paladin was equipped better than any character I've played on the tabletop, perhaps only one guy came on par - a level 20 character with 5 attunement slots, a couple of epic boons and several artefact-level items.
2) CRPG = combat. Combat = stuff needs killing. Stuff needs killing = playing a stuff-killing character feels good.
3) No high level spells which really distort the world around themselves. Quick reminder - BG3 doesn't even have a real Raise Dead, because it's a videogame and therefore things that died can't be brought back unless planned for. There's no Teleport, no Plane Shift, and certainly no Wish or any of the 7th+ level spells that can break open several situations. Hell, the central plotline of the crawly in your skull could be resolved with ease at level 13 - crack open your skull, drag the maggot out, Resurrect you without the thing. This being Forgotten Realms, you could even get that done without all that much fuss.
4) You're running the whole 4 person team, and turn resolution takes seconds. Suddenly the spellcasters are cooperative enough to spend their turns and concentrations to give Fighter a Haste and a defensive buff while staying back for safety.

A minor 5) Some combat spells are noticeably nerfed for some reason. See Fireball getting cut down to 12-ft radius, which makes it...much less impressive than a full 20-ft one.

[Amechra]

Something to consider:

The people on these forums are heavily biased towards being the kind of player who wants a ton of options to play with in combat, so they're going to have a heavy subconscious bias towards spellcasters. On top of that, a lot of online discussion about setting up combat in D&D is geared towards making fights that are biased towards what spellcasters are good at (setpiece fights with lots of flashy extra problems to solve) and away from what they're less good at (close-up slugfests).

Then you sit down and play BG3 and suddenly you get to control a whole party (so there isn't as much of a push towards playing a spellcaster if you want tactical depth) and the game gives you more straight-up fights than you'd normally get at the tabletop. Add on the fact that the "DM" actually bothered to add the kinds of set-dressing that martials can interact with in order to expand their tactical options, and no wonder martials feel good — they're in an environment that they're well suited for and the attitude is different.

[LudicSavant]

Lockpickable doors can be bashed or cut down, and items inside chests survive when you destroy the trapped chest. It's one of the things I like about BG3 that I wish was more common in tabletop: give objects hit points so I can destroy them (or know what it would take).

Definitely. But in addition to this, I feel it's important to note that I was also using a lot of skill checks. The thing is, I didn't need a Rogue for it.

Expertise is just a +2-4 bonus, and only to a small handful of the party's skills. But I was getting a considerably bigger bonus than that just from having my casters buff whoever was making checks. Guidance is worth about as much as Expertise, and features like Enhance Ability or Bardic Inspiration or Thaumaturgy are worth more than it. Not to mention all the equipment bonuses flying around.

I actually had Lae'zel (my Eldritch Knight Fighter) doing my sleight of hand checks, and she was good enough at it to completely rob traders blind. By comparison, opening doors was trivial.

[AvatarVecna]

As far as lockpicking goes, you don't really need Expertise for like 99% of the stuff in the game. Early on, it's potentially useful, because bonuses are low and advantage is rare and spare lockpicks are rare, so you have to make every one count. And there's some really tough locks scattered through the game that you basically can't pick unless you have expertise.

But once you hit like...lvl 5, you've got someone in the party with at least +6 without expertise, probably the gloves of thievery for constant advantage on Sleight Of Hand checks, possibly the Graceful Cloth that gives Dex +2/adv on all Dex checks, you're just drowning in spare lockpicks, and somebody is going to have guidance (if nothing else, from an at-will Guidance amulet you find early Act 1).

There's benefit to be gained from someone with expertise in SoH, mostly because traps are finicky about failure, and pickpocket is such an easy path to wealth. But if you're willing to spend an extra tool per lock, even basic proficiency is optional as long as you reliably have advantage. DCs rarely climb higher than 20, and 4d20b1+1d4 unlocks DC 20 locks about half the time, no bonus required. A single attempt with advantage/guidance/+0 has a 90% chance of unlocking DC 10 locks.

EDIT: This isn't me recommending you have someone with +0 SoH do your lockpicking, it's better if you get someone with at least a touch of Dex, and probably basic proficiency. Adv+guidance+0 gives 50% chance of unlocking in two tries, but adv+guidance+6 gives 72% chance of unlocking in one try (and has much better odds unlocking the occasional DC 25 too). I'm more just saying that if you wanted to, you could just buy every lockpick you find and throw money at the problem until you roll a nat 20 for auto-success, even if the best SoH in your party is -1. It's helpful to be good at the skill, but it's not strictly speaking necessary. The game certainly drowns you in enough money to do that, if you wanted.

[Pex]

Definitely. But in addition to this, I feel it's important to note that I was also using a lot of skill checks. The thing is, I didn't need a Rogue for it.

Expertise is just a +2-4 bonus, and only to a small handful of the party's skills. But I was getting a considerably bigger bonus than that just from having my casters buff whoever was making checks. Guidance is worth about as much as Expertise, and features like Enhance Ability or Bardic Inspiration or Thaumaturgy are worth more than it. Not to mention all the equipment bonuses flying around.

I actually had Lae'zel (my Eldritch Knight Fighter) doing my sleight of hand checks, and she was good enough at it to completely rob traders blind. By comparison, opening doors was trivial.

Using up how many resources to do it instead of play with Astarion? It's great for the game you don't absolutely need Astarion. Shadowheart and Halsin were my lockpickers when Astarion wasn't available. That doesn't change the fact when I did have Astarion all locks and traps were trivial.

[LudicSavant]

That doesn't change the fact when I did have Astarion all locks and traps were trivial.

Yes, and I did not have Astarion/Rogue, and all locks and traps were trivial anyway.


Using up how many resources to do it Few enough that I rested so little in my playthrough that I actually had to go back and rest more, because I was missing scenes that trigger off of resting.

For fully 1/3rd of the game's levels (1-4), Guidance is just straight up a bigger bonus than Expertise. For the rest of the game, it's nearly as big of a bonus, and applies to every skill, not just 4 of them.

Enhance Ability is just a 2nd level slot that lasts until long rest.

A Smuggler's Ring is a +2 bonus that's just on whenever you want it and you find it near the start of the game. And you can get another +2 from gloves (for a total of +4).

Shapeshifter's Boon is a Guidance-sized bonus that's just on whenever you use a level 1 ritual (which is free).

This isn't expensive stuff. I can do this (and more) all day.

[Goobahfish]

Also, the number of jumping, pouncing and teleporting enemies makes martials essential.

I think the main thing is however, that because there are so many encounters, martials begin to shine. I generally do at least 2-3 fights per short rest. That is not how I play TT. The combats in TT tend to skew deadly and few rather than numerous and easy.

[Zevox]

I never played with Astarion and doors and traps were basically a non-obstacle on the highest difficulty.
From experience, I'd say that traps and doors are basically a non-obstacle in the game throughout acts 1 and 2, where most are DC 10, only occasionally harder, and very rarely 20+ (and these tend to be ones you can handle in other ways). In Act 3 ones with DC 20 or above are common enough that you'll at least want someone with proficiency in sleight of hand, decent dex, and preferably a source of Guidance; but that's easy to do. My second time through I did all of Act 3 with Gale as my sleight of hand character as a Knowledge Cleric. He had +2 dex, gave himself proficiency via his Channel Divinity, and of course he had Guidance; combined with a good supply of lockpicks built up throughout the game, that was plenty to get through with no trouble.

[Witty Username]

Yes, and I did not have Astarion/Rogue, and all locks and traps were trivial anyway.

Few enough that I rested so little in my playthrough that I actually had to go back and rest more, because I was missing scenes that trigger off of resting.

For fully 1/3rd of the game's levels (1-4), Guidance is just straight up a bigger bonus than Expertise. For the rest of the game, it's nearly as big of a bonus, and applies to every skill, not just 4 of them.

Enhance Ability is just a 2nd level slot that lasts until long rest.

A Smuggler's Ring is a +2 bonus that's just on whenever you want it and you find it near the start of the game. And you can get another +2 from gloves (for a total of +4).

Shapeshifter's Boon is a Guidance-sized bonus that's just on whenever you use a level 1 ritual (which is free).

This isn't expensive stuff. I can do this (and more) all day.

A rogue without most of this straight up can't fail a Sleight of Hand check (well 5% which most of this won't help with) for a majority of the game, about level 4+, and before that it is rarely higher than 10%. I don't even bother to guidance my Astarion anymore because it just wastes time.

Doors aren't worth spell or item slots.

[LudicSavant]

I don't even bother to guidance my Astarion anymore because it just wastes time.

And Guidance is about the same size bonus as Expertise.


Doors aren't worth spell or item slots.

It costs you spell slots to replace a Bard or Cleric or Wizard in your party with a Rogue.

[OldTrees1]

A rogue without most of this straight up can't fail a Sleight of Hand check (well 5% which most of this won't help with) for a majority of the game, about level 4+, and before that it is rarely higher than 10%. I don't even bother to guidance my Astarion anymore because it just wastes time.

Doors aren't worth spell or item slots.
The item slots might only be occupied during the lockpicking check.

Also since Enhance Ability (the only spell with a cost mentioned) is only a single 2nd level slot and lasts until Long Rest (or concentration breaks), it is not a big cost. Whether Enhance Ability is worth it might depend on the doors in question, I assume it would be used for the DC 30 doors in Act 2 and Act 3.



And Guidance is about the same size bonus as Expertise.

If you make one of your characters a Rogue for the sake of doors, then you lost an entire character's worth of spell slots for doors.

It is unlikely they are talking about converting a character into a single classed Rogue and doing so solely for the sake of doors.
A) For example some use Astarion as a Rogue for XYZ reason and get doors as a side effect. This example is borrowed from further up the quote chain.
B) Alternatively they could take 1 level of Rogue. Most of my Warlock 9 characters are Rogue 1 / Warlock 9. They lose no spell slots but get the spell levels delayed by a level (which is relevant for 5th and 9th).
Edit (you clarified Bard/Cleric/Wizard)
C) Oddly Cleric 11 Rogue 1 does not miss spell slots compared to Cleric 12. However until then they would lose out on between 4 and 9 spell levels of spells.

PS: I am a bit curious at the Advantage + Prof + 2d4 + Dex + 4 vs the DC 25 & 30 doors in Act 2 and DC 30 doors in Act 3. How many lockpicks did each take on average? I assume your lockpick stockpile was lower than mine* (since you would lose more lockpicks). However we all should be considering how the characters can just spend those lockpicks for rerolls.

* Advantage + Prof + Expertise + 2d4 + Dex + 2 (I missed the +2 gloves but found the adv gloves).
Edit: Oh the Act 3 Unlucky Thief's Gloves.

[Witty Username]

It costs you spell slots to replace a Bard or Cleric or Wizard in your party with a Rogue.

No more than it costs to replace a Bard or Cleric or Wizard with a Fighter.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The points have all been made, but one I didn't see, or maybe just missed over.

Have we covered Haste working BETTER than it's supposed to? Not the Caster casts twice but the Martials literally get double their attacks instead of just one extra?

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

[LudicSavant]

The item slots might only be occupied during the lockpicking check.

Also since Enhance Ability (the only spell with a cost mentioned) is only a single 2nd level slot and lasts until Long Rest (or concentration breaks), it is not a big cost. Whether Enhance Ability is worth it might depend on the doors in question, I assume it would be used for the DC 30 doors in Act 2 and Act 3.

That's correct!


PS: I am a bit curious at the Advantage + Prof + 2d4 + Dex + 4 vs the DC 25 & 30 doors in Act 2 and DC 30 doors in Act 3. How many lockpicks did each take on average? Between 0 and 1 for a DC30.

Edit:

* Advantage + Prof + Expertise + 2d4 + Dex + 2 (I missed the +2 gloves but found the adv gloves). Edit: Oh the Act 3 Unlucky Thief's Gloves.

You can get a bonus from armor too, from the merchant in the very first town. The Shapeshifter's Boon and Smuggler's Ring I likewise found early in Act 1.


However we all should be considering how the characters can just spend those lockpicks for rerolls. Yep!


It is unlikely they are talking about converting a character into a single classed Rogue and doing so solely for the sake of doors. Indeed. However, Pex said they regretted not being a Rogue at every lock and door. I'm saying that there's no need for such lock/door-based regrets.


The points have all been made, but one I didn't see, or maybe just missed over.

Have we covered Haste working BETTER than it's supposed to? Not the Caster casts twice but the Martials literally get double their attacks instead of just one extra?

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

Eldritch Knights are also bananas with throwing weapons in BG3, because...

- Any weapon in their hands is a Returning Weapon (due to a buff to Weapon Bond in BG3).
- Thrown weapons have considerably better range than in base 5e.
- Thrown weapons get a hidden damage bonus based on their weight and distance they fall from BG3's weird physics system (making their damage considerably better than in base 5e).
- Thrown weapons work with Tavern Brawler, which is like a +7/+7 to attack and damage.
- High ground is incredibly easy to get (you can just drop a crate from your inventory and walk on it, for example), and gives yet another +2 to hit.
- Thrown weapons benefit from multiple magic items that each give +1d4 damage per attack. They stack.
- There was a glitch that made these bonuses apply multiple times per hit.

The end result is that you are throwing weapons at enemies anywhere on the field for like 40 damage per attack really early in the game, with 95% accuracy (or more if you grab Advantage), and hitting enemies anywhere on the field.

And you still get to hold a shield. And have the Shield spell, too. And the Defense style. While being ranged. And moving fast as heck because your bonus action is free and you've got Longstrider and Jump as rituals.

Wanna know why martials are strong in BG3? This is why. This is leagues above anything that an Eldritch Knight has in base 5e.


From experience, I'd say that traps and doors are basically a non-obstacle in the game throughout acts 1 and 2, where most are DC 10, only occasionally harder, and very rarely 20+ (and these tend to be ones you can handle in other ways). In Act 3 ones with DC 20 or above are common enough that you'll at least want someone with proficiency in sleight of hand, decent dex, and preferably a source of Guidance; but that's easy to do. My second time through I did all of Act 3 with Gale as my sleight of hand character as a Knowledge Cleric. He had +2 dex, gave himself proficiency via his Channel Divinity, and of course he had Guidance; combined with a good supply of lockpicks built up throughout the game, that was plenty to get through with no trouble.

Pretty much!

[Witty Username]

However we all should be considering how the characters can just spend those lockpicks for rerolls.


A quick caviot is we can only do this for doors, since this is also about traps. And traps will trigger automatically on failure.

[Dr.Samurai]

It sounds like martials in BG3 do not need spellcasting to use scrolls; is that the case?

[Blatant Beast]

I do think it is interesting to note, that increase in power is mainly on the Strength based side.

I think it is fair to say, that BG3 is ample proof that systemically:

1)D&D Weapon damage can be increased as a whole, as the effects of BG3 Tavern Brawler and BG3’s physics systems is a damage die increase for strength builds. Increased base weapon damage also means less pressure to take option like Sharpshooter or GWM.

2) The notion that 5e does not need Magic items in order to be balanced is just incorrect. Martials need Magic items, including (and possibly especially), consumable items. Give Martials good things, and suddenly they are fun…what a shocking revelation! (🥳)

3) Creative use of Terrain,(read non flat grids of whiteboard), and Environmental interactivity increase options. As has been pointed out, the rules exist in Pen and Paper D&D regarding item destructibility, and there are charts for ad hoc damage calculations that could be applied to environmental interactions..like throwing a barrel of oil on a fire to make big booms. The problem is much of this is spread throughout the 5e DMG and not consolidated in a single chapter.

4) Increasing PC Mobility across the board through the Bonus Action Jump, is popular, and fun, and improves game play.

The really sad part, is One D&D is so far along on it’s design schedule that any insights that could be gleaned and used by Crawford et all, probably will not be used as there is no time to test them.

[Amnestic]

It sounds like martials in BG3 do not need spellcasting to use scrolls; is that the case?

This is correct. Some features (Rage, Wild Shape) still prevent it but you don't need to be a spellcaster otherwise to use scrolls, and there's no 'scroll failure' check like in tabletop. First level fighter can cast from a 6th level spell scroll just fine, without issues.

Additional scroll stuff:-

The Attack roll and the Difficulty Class of the Saving throw from scrolls always benefit from your current Proficiency Bonus and your class's Spellcasting Ability Modifier, even if your class cannot normally cast spells. In case of multiclassing, the spellcasting ability is determined by the class the character most recently took a first level in.


Scrolls used in combat will not be consumed if successfully countered by an enemy's Counterspell.

[LudicSavant]

A quick caviot is we can only do this for doors, since this is also about traps. And traps will trigger automatically on failure.

An awful lot of the game's traps can be conveniently bypassed without any check at all. Even were this not the case, it's pretty easy to make DC20-30 checks, no Rogue required.

[Blatant Beast]

This is correct. Some features (Rage, Wild Shape) still prevent it but you don't need to be a spellcaster otherwise to use scrolls, and there's no 'scroll failure' check like in tabletop. First level fighter can cast from a 6th level spell scroll just fine, without issues.

Additional scroll stuff:-

I’ve houseruled that anyone could use a scroll, since 5E’s release, as a quality of life issue. It makes everything simpler, and allows for more equal loot distribution.

I also homebrew Kata sheets, magical, scroll like illustrations of combat movements a PC can use at the beginning of an Adventuring Day and trigger later to produce an effect, typically something reminiscent of a Battlemaster’s Maneuver.

[Witty Username]

I think in my haste I got on the wrong track,
I jumped into a conversation, is rogue nessasary. Which I don't believe it is.
But more going to is rogue fun/cool, which I would definitely say as a yes.

Alot of rogue conversation I have seen recently is claiming that rogue is not viable, which is what I am inclined to push against. Apologies for my jumping the gun.

[Amnestic]

I’ve houseruled that anyone could use a scroll, since 5E’s release, as a quality of life issue. It makes everything simpler, and allows for more equal loot distribution.


I let anyone use it, with an ability check (10+level) if it's not on your list, using Int for the ability if you don't have the spellcasting feature (so clerics would be Wis-based, fighters would still be Int-based).

I could probably be convinced fairly easily to just give it a blanket "anyone can use any scroll, no check required". Maybe then they'd actually use them! (Probably not)

[Amechra]

I think the main thing is however, that because there are so many encounters, martials begin to shine. I generally do at least 2-3 fights per short rest. That is not how I play TT. The combats in TT tend to skew deadly and few rather than numerous and easy.

It's honestly kinda funny, because from what the devs have said and how the math works out, "numerous and easy" is what 5e was apparently balanced around. "We only do one big deadly fight per rest" is just the five-minute workday "problem" in a fancy new jacket. Not that I blame the people who don't want to waste their time on little fights that are just supposed to waste resources - D&D hasn't been designed in a way that makes that fun for almost 25 years, so...

If you look at games that actually do a good job of delivering the attrition-heavy style that 5e was supposedly balanced around, they're almost universally set up in a way where combat is incredibly fast to set-up and run, because who wants to waste 20+ minutes setting up a fight that the players burn through in 2 minutes (or, worse, skip entirely), or where a fight that's just there to burn some HP and healing takes 20+ minutes to run? We all have lives, dang it!

I'd actually be really interested in seeing a version of 3.x or 5e that didn't pay lip-service to attrition when balancing everything. I have a feeling that they'd look a lot like 4e...

[Pex]

The points have all been made, but one I didn't see, or maybe just missed over.

Have we covered Haste working BETTER than it's supposed to? Not the Caster casts twice but the Martials literally get double their attacks instead of just one extra?

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

Interesting. I hadn't much luck against the dragon directly when I try. It's the end game anyway. I summon allies to distract the dragon and mooks and just run/misty step/dimension door towards the gate to confront the Absolute. I can handle the mindflayers in the way.

[GeneralVryth]

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

Combine that with a Blades Bard 6+/Fighter 2+/X dual wielding hand crossbows with sharpshooter. You can have 8 attacks in one round at a minimum of +7 (likely with advantage, and easily +d8 with precision strike) doing 1d4+16 (at a minimum) force damage. And then an offhand attack in a similar ballpark.

There is a few pretty ridiculous martial builds in terms of damage output in BG3 (and yes I understand the irony of using a Bard multiclass, though their spells tend to be one of the least important aspects of a Blade Bard).

[Dr.Samurai]

This is correct. Some features (Rage, Wild Shape) still prevent it but you don't need to be a spellcaster otherwise to use scrolls, and there's no 'scroll failure' check like in tabletop. First level fighter can cast from a 6th level spell scroll just fine, without issues.

Additional scroll stuff:-
Yeah, in addition to much of the other stuff posted here, this makes a big difference.

On another note, as someone that champions the 5E Str character's jumping skillz, I find it funny that WotC's instinct for the 2024 rules was "make jump an Action", and Larian was like "how bout no?" and everyone is now praising how fun and cool jumping is in BG3.

[Zevox]

An awful lot of the game's traps can be conveniently bypassed without any check at all. Even were this not the case, it's pretty easy to make DC20-30 checks, no Rogue required.
Moreover a dirty secret is that even when you do set off a trap in BG3, they're rarely that dangerous. I set off a few in Act 3 on the run where I had Gale doing my disarming that I mentioned, and it teneded to just result in a small burst of flame for 10-20 or so damage, which isn't a big deal at the levels you're at in Act 3. (This was on Tactician difficulty.)

Maybe setting some off in Act 1 when your health is so much lower would be much more hazardous, but that's when their DCs are mostly 10, so it doesn't take much to consistently to disarm them.

[AvatarVecna]

Moreover a dirty secret is that even when you do set off a trap in BG3, they're rarely that dangerous. I set off a few in Act 3 on the run where I had Gale doing my disarming that I mentioned, and it teneded to just result in a small burst of flame for 10-20 or so damage, which isn't a big deal at the levels you're at in Act 3. (This was on Tactician difficulty.)

Maybe setting some off in Act 1 when your health is so much lower would be much more hazardous, but that's when their DCs are mostly 10, so it doesn't take much to consistently to disarm them.

The withers dungeon has a trapped sarcophagus where touching it fills the room with slippery flammable Grease, and chucks fireballs around. This is capable of a party wipe. However, it's so early you almost certainly don't have a trap kit, so there's a button on the wall right next to the sarcophagus that turns everything off.

The hag dungeon has a Maze of roots you have to descend. There's clouds of flammable poison gas, with exploding fire flowers hidden inside. A single feather fall spell, which doesn't even take a slot since you're not in combat, let's even the weakest party members jump past all of that nonsense with no fall damage risk.

There's a guy surrounded by explosive barrels who sets them off if you approach without a password. This is not a trap mechanically so tools are useless. This happens again in the zhentarim dungeon behind him. That dungeon also has proximity mines which can be SoH'd...that are easily avoided and usually aren't turned on anyway.

The underdark has several areas with explosive mushrooms. These can't be disarmed and must be dealt with in other ways. There's also a Wizard tower with mechanized turrets. These can't be disarmed, only destroyed. Lame.

The monastery dungeon has disarmament traps but no matter how careful you are in getting close enough to disarm, there's a decent chance the disarm attempt will put you in the traps AoE, sending you hurtling into a death pit even if you successfully turn it off. After this, there's a trap that can't be conventionally disarmed- you either have the Amulet to stop it turning on in the first place, or you have to run for your life to get out of the blast zone.

That's all the trap-adjacent stuff I remember making me nervous in act 1 during my honor run. The other problem of course is that if you're going full try hard, even death is a speedbump as long as it doesn't party wipe. The game dumps revivify scrolls on you for free immediately. By the time you might be running out of them (if you took a lot of stupid risks), you're lvl 5 and can have three life cleric hirelings at camp hanging out, waiting to heal/rez you if the worst happens. This technically costs money, but you can pick withers pocket and he doesn't care, so even if you have -1 SoH you can just fish for a 20.

Traps early on are either a joke not worth worrying about, or have alternate solutions. Even if you take too many risks, the game drowns you in Healing options.

[LudicSavant]

BG3 martials are more effective than in 5e because:

- They all have diverse weapon maneuvers.
- They all cast from scrolls (and other equipment too!).
- They all brew potions, and can use them as bonus actions.
- They all have better itemization than 5e, and also can switch between these abilities far more readily.
- They all have access to bonus action movement that scales with Strength.
- Thrown weapons are far better than in 5e, improved significantly in range, damage, accuracy, action economy, and quality of features that use it.
- Tavern Brawler exists.
- Shove is now a bonus action, and knocks people much farther than 5e (where it's just a lame 5 feet).
- Strength is no longer a bad stat, and can reliably be boosted above 20.
- Various buffs (like, say, Haste) benefit them considerably more than they used to.
- Illithid powers exist.
- BG3 reworked the initiative system. It now rolls a d4 instead of a d20, and this makes it very, very easy for, say, someone who maxxed Dex (as many martials do) to consistently win initiative, thus gaining an entire extra round of actions relative to Team Monster.
- Hand Crossbows are more powerful than in 5e. They can bonus action attack without a feat, benefit from a shield, and so forth.
- The high ground mechanic exists.
- Cover no longer exists, nor does the ability to fall prone intentionally. Both of these things benefit throwers and other ranged attackers.
- You can carry two sets of weaponry that you can switch between for free (including shields!)
- All of the martial classes got considerable buffs somewhere in their class kit. For example the Eldritch Knight got a considerable upgrade to Weapon Bond that makes them one of the best throwers in the game (and throwing stuff is strong in BG3), and they got instant ritual casting, and they got some particularly useful spells turned into rituals. Thieves get two bonus actions. Open Hand Monks get real subclass features beyond level 3 now, and some extra ki. And so on and so forth.
- Many old standby spells were nerfed or outright removed. Surfaces (and thus many control spells) don't stack, Fireball is far tinier, Sleet Storm got hosed, etc. (Note, even with these nerfs, properly-used spellcasters are still extremely strong in BG3, and while a lot of spellcaster stuff got nerfed, some got buffed, too -- including some things that really didn't need it. So while martials got lots of buffs, casters are still going strong too).

[Witty Username]

- BG3 reworked the initiative system. It now rolls a d4 instead of a d20, and this makes it very, very easy for, say, someone who maxxed Dex (as many martials do) to consistently win initiative, thus gaining an entire extra round of actions relative to Team Monster.


I didn't realize this one, that would explain why my barbarian consistently goes first in combat (+3 initiative bonus means alot in that framework).
-
I do think melee combat is still kinda midling, GWM does deal good damage and it opens up athletics for death shoving but it doesn't really justify the higher level of danger to use.

[LudicSavant]

I didn't realize this one, that would explain why my barbarian consistently goes first in combat (+3 initiative bonus means alot in that framework). Yeah. Initiative bonuses are strong in 5e, and they're even stronger in BG3.


I do think melee combat is still kinda midling, GWM does deal good damage and it opens up athletics for death shoving but it doesn't really justify the higher level of danger to use.

Forget about GWM, Tavern Brawler is where it's at :smalltongue:


opens up athletics for death shoving

Speaking of which, that's yet another considerable buff in BG3. Shoves are now a bonus action and knock people much, much farther than in 5e (where it was just a pitiful 5 feet).

[Witty Username]

Forget about GWM, Tavern Brawler is where it's at :smalltongue:


Tavern Brawler isn't much of a melee option though, its a ranged option you can trade safety and damage to use in melee.

Damage wise GWM isn't all that bad either (Tavern Brawler is better, definitely), bonus attack on kill/crit does alot of work generally and by the point in the game I am at the attack penalty is negligible (have started to get 99% accuracy with the -5 penalty on my barbarian). It is just the damage isn't really enough to justify the sacrifice in position, which is sort of the root of the issue.

[LudicSavant]

BG3 martials are also much better at interacting with the environment than 5e ones.

In tabletop, a typical Strength-based martial is just trudging around 30 feet or so. In BG3, they have bonus action jump that sends them soaring majestically across the map, potentially farther than their normal movement range. Who needs Cunning Action?

In tabletop, a shove is a full action that nudges a character 5 feet. In BG3, shove is a bonus action that can fling an enemy like they were hit by a freight train.

In tabletop, a character with 20 Strength can laboriously push a water barrel 5 feet in a round. In BG3, you can not only carry multiple water barrels around in your inventory, but you can also hurl them across the map and give enemies a full-blown Vulnerability (among other potent effects).

[Blatant Beast]

In tabletop, a character with 20 Strength can laboriously push a water barrel 5 feet in a round. In BG3, you can not only carry multiple water barrels around in your inventory, but you can also hurl them across the map and give enemies a full-blown Vulnerability (among other potent effects).

Engage Donkey Kong Mode! https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/08/11/USAT/15b4e607-de19-4132-94af-b7d5265d300c-N3DS_DKCR3D_artwork_07.jpg?width=1960&height=1962&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

[Witty Username]

In tabletop, a typical Strength-based martial is just trudging around 30 feet or so. In BG3, they have bonus action jump that sends them soaring majestically across the map, potentially farther than their normal movement range. Who needs Cunning Action?


Cunning action does not occasionally bounce off the ceiling into what your trying to avoid. Learned that the other day.

I can only imagine how bad it would be to have to spend ki on such things though.

--
Stealth mechanics feel odd to me, better than tabletop but it did make for some weirdness. Pass Without Trace feels egregious to use because of how easy it is to get around.

[prototype00]

I recall having a knock down, drag out verbal bout with someone here about the single target damage potential of martials and how they could keep doing it a lot longer than Spellcasters had spells and was in general higher through multiple combats, and my verbal sparring partner swore until they were purple in the face that I was wrong, both in the white room and in actual play.

Well. Well, well, well.

[Witty Username]

I recall having a knock down, drag out verbal bout with someone here about the single target damage potential of martials and how they could keep doing it a lot longer than Spellcasters had spells and was in general higher through multiple combats, and my verbal sparring partner swore until they were purple in the face that I was wrong, both in the white room and in actual play.

Well. Well, well, well.

This is a bit drifting into another sketch, but generally martials are easier to plan around, and so the more powerful the martials in the party the less spells casters need to function over a larger time frame.

BG3 is a good example in places, because despite some throttling, casters generally 'feel' stronger in BG3, because they spend more time feeling powerful as opposed to draining resources trying to carry when the structure isn't well suited for that.

[Keltest]

BG3 martials are also much better at interacting with the environment than 5e ones.

In tabletop, a typical Strength-based martial is just trudging around 30 feet or so. In BG3, they have bonus action jump that sends them soaring majestically across the map, potentially farther than their normal movement range. Who needs Cunning Action?

Um, Aktchually, in BG3 you can't jump further than your movement speed.

[Goobahfish]

It's honestly kinda funny, because from what the devs have said and how the math works out, "numerous and easy" is what 5e was apparently balanced around. "We only do one big deadly fight per rest" is just the five-minute workday "problem" in a fancy new jacket. Not that I blame the people who don't want to waste their time on little fights that are just supposed to waste resources - D&D hasn't been designed in a way that makes that fun for almost 25 years, so...

If you look at games that actually do a good job of delivering the attrition-heavy style that 5e was supposedly balanced around, they're almost universally set up in a way where combat is incredibly fast to set-up and run, because who wants to waste 20+ minutes setting up a fight that the players burn through in 2 minutes (or, worse, skip entirely), or where a fight that's just there to burn some HP and healing takes 20+ minutes to run? We all have lives, dang it!

I'd actually be really interested in seeing a version of 3.x or 5e that didn't pay lip-service to attrition when balancing everything. I have a feeling that they'd look a lot like 4e...

My solution to the attrition thing (in an RPG I designed and play) is to have two kinds of health. Short rest get it back for free health and Long rest heals slowly health. It gives the 'feel' of being ground down without immediately prompting "I will do nothing until I rest!".

[OldTrees1]

Um, Aktchually, in BG3 you can't jump further than your movement speed.

Jump (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Jump)
Costs a bonus action AND 3m (10ft) of your movement speed.
Distance: 4.5m (15ft) + 1.5m (5ft) x Str mod.
Str in BG3 caps at 24 in my experience.
9m (30ft) at Str 16.
12m (40ft) at Str 20.
15m (50ft) at Str 24.

Since your movement speed is 9 m / 30 ft, you can jump further than your movement speed. However it only equals Cunning Action if you get Str 20. On the other hand this jump distance and your movement speed can both be buffed. So which is greater depends on your buffs.

Now Keltest you might be remembering Flying (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Fly_(Class_Action)) which is fly speed 18m/60ft using your movement speed at half cost.

[AvatarVecna]

I recall having a knock down, drag out verbal bout with someone here about the single target damage potential of martials and how they could keep doing it a lot longer than Spellcasters had spells and was in general higher through multiple combats, and my verbal sparring partner swore until they were purple in the face that I was wrong, both in the white room and in actual play.

Well. Well, well, well.

Idk if the original argument was about 5e or BG3 specifically, but I can at least say that while martials have a lot of stuff making them more fun than usual 5e player, casters definitely aren't suffering. Even beyond the usual advantages of having a lot more options (even if the disparity has been addressed), there's a number of brainless "press button, do damage" builds available. Early-game, a berserker barbarian with the Tavern Brawler feat is going to be an enormous force to be reckoned with, and lategame there's basically nothing that can match a greatsword fighter long-term, but blastlocks are stronger than usual, and were already pretty strong. They keep up with the better melee builds pretty reliably.

Shoving is a great mechanic for martials to reshape the battlefield or just push foes off cliffs, but at least IME it's a bit less reliable than repelling blast. Idk if that impression is due to pushing multiple people with the same action, or an observance of how often it feels like people get pushed by one vs the other, or if it's because the warlock is always blasting, so they're always pushing, so it only feels like it's more reliable. But where martials have the option to spend actions on pushing if they want, warlocks have it baked in, and there's not exactly a lot of competition for invocation slots. Agonizing Blast and Hex makes their damage competitive for the most part, and Hex lasting all day by default means it's not really a resource consumption issue the way it normally is.

Then we get to items: there are a number of items scattered through the game that give a status called "Lightning Charge", which among other things adds a teeny bit of lightning damage to all your stuff (including spells and cantrips). Some of these items are early in Act 1, including a staff called Spellsparkler (although another source would be good cuz we want different staves later). Late in Act 1, there's an amulet that adds your casting stat to the damage of any cantrip that deals elemental damage...and lightning charges can cause this to proc on spells that don't normally deal such damage types. In Act 2 (difficult to call it late or early cuz you could do this basically last, or do this basically first, or miss it entirely) there is The Potent Robe, which adds Cha to cantrip damage, and gives you temp HP equal to Cha every turn forever. Early Act 3 there's a hat giving +2 Cha (max 22). Late Act 3, there's a pair of gloves that essentially give your attack spells a tradeoff of Atk -5/Dmg +1d8. Oh, and at some point late Act 2/early Act 3, you'll have the feats necessary to max out Cha and to take Dual Wielder, which allows you to apply to stack the magic benefits of two staves.

I'm doing all of this in a run with a friend of mine, and the DPR is extremely dependable, and competes with well-built fighters.

If there's a common forum argument I think BG3 soundly debunks, it's something I hear in various discussions about how to close gaps between tiers. There's a common refrain that the only real way the problem could be solved is to gut noncasters so completely that they don't feel like noncasters anymore. But I've never had that problem in BG3. The martial characters don't feel like casters, they just feel like people who live in a world of magic. They feel more themselves, with all these little upgrades and the abundance of magic items. My astarion was committing gas-based war crimes with hand crossbows. My laezel was one-rounding bosses with a stolen silver sword. My karlach stood on an anvil beneath a tarrasque-sized hammer and dared the enemy to engage her in melee. And when the hammer fell and rose for the third time, it wasn't the enemy still standing.

Weapons feel powerful, skills feel worked into the fabric of the world, martials feel fun. They're so much stronger that even if we extended things to 20th and they were losing the white room, they'd still be fun enough to play anyway, instead of feeling like a lode weighing the team down.

[LudicSavant]

Um, Aktchually, in BG3 you can't jump further than your movement speed.
:smallconfused:

Just booted up the game to check, and I was jumping over 100 feet (to an area of the same height) with a Fighter that had only 30 feet of movement speed.

So not only can you jump further than your movement speed, you can jump much further than your movement speed.

Movement range:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/1207210973048348672/image.png?ex=65ded1d4&is=65cc5cd4&hm=fdb7647e8e0188bbd21cd70151d1c1505c522c3b2ed0574 5a096f803425e054b&

Jump range:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/1207211408895385630/image.png?ex=65ded23c&is=65cc5d3c&hm=35942fb062a2c4421db480048980611aa04b304b3fe33d2 e8731ed750577e6e9&


Jump (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Jump)
Costs a bonus action AND 3m (10ft) of your movement speed.
Distance: 4.5m (15ft) + 1.5m (5ft) x Str mod.
Str in BG3 caps at 24 in my experience.
9m (30ft) at Str 16.
12m (40ft) at Str 20.
15m (50ft) at Str 24.

Since your movement speed is 9 m / 30 ft, you can jump further than your movement speed. However it only equals Cunning Action if you get Str 20. On the other hand this jump distance and your movement speed can both be buffed. So which is greater depends on your buffs.

Now Keltest you might be remembering Flying (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Fly_(Class_Action)) which is fly speed 18m/60ft using your movement speed at half cost.

Yeah. Simply being a Strength-based character is sufficient to give you a farther-than-Cunning-Action BA dash. And then you can stack buffs on top of that really easily.

Not to mention bonus action shoving people like 20+ feet.

[Witty Username]

Jump (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Jump)
Costs a bonus action AND 3m (10ft) of your movement speed.
Distance: 4.5m (15ft) + 1.5m (5ft) x Str mod.
Str in BG3 caps at 24 in my experience.
9m (30ft) at Str 16.
12m (40ft) at Str 20.
15m (50ft) at Str 24.


There is also the jump spell which tripples that, and is a ritual.

The only awkward thing is its a bonus action, if your not a barbarian skip this concern.
--
Imagine having to spend ki just to get beaten out by this.

I am Idly curious how monk does in this, it does feel like most of the pros in BG3 don't really work and I am not sure if they had any sprucing.

Rogue feels like it hasn't changed much: thief gets fun, but power I am not sure, AT getting rituals is good for the reasons everyone else has. Hiding is real easy as it can be done during more or less any combat.
That being said, I am in crowd Rogue is middle of the road fine in tabletop, so it not being all that different in BG3 doesn't worry me much.

[LudicSavant]

There is also the jump spell which tripples that, and is a ritual.

The only awkward thing is its a bonus action, if your not a barbarian skip this concern.
--
Imagine having to spend ki just to get beaten out by this.

In BG3, Step of the Wind gives you a buffed dash and a buffed jump, for the same bonus action. They're fine :smalltongue:

Step of the Wind in BG3 might as well read "be anywhere on the map you wanna be. Or the next map over."


I am Idly curious how monk does in this, it does feel like most of the pros in BG3 don't really work and I am not sure if they had any sprucing.

Open Hand Monk gets...

- More ki.
- Faster scaling martial arts die.
- Monk weapons have less limitations.
- +1d4+Wis damage added to attacks (on top of the faster scaling martial arts die, and better monk weapons)
- Wholeness of Body now grants extra ki and actions, in addition to healing.
- Stillness of Mind triggers automatically to prevent charm and fear.
- A new feature called Ki Resonation that lets them use AoEs and such.
- Flurry of blows no longer requires Attack to trigger.
- Superior itemization.
- Benefits from the initiative rework.
- Always on passive that makes jump go even farther.
- Always on passive that ignores difficult terrain.
- Step of the Wind now gives you a buffed dash and a buffed Jump that does not require any extra bonus action.
- Tavern Brawler greatly benefits them.

So yeah, they got buffed. (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2e-NWvgcupk)

[AvatarVecna]

Superior itemization.

Expanding on this. Scattered throughout the game are various glove-slot items that add extra damage dice of various damage types to unarmed attacks, with small side benefits as well. By the endgame, your monk can have a golf-bag of gloves, pulling out the right one for the occasion if you have the opportunity to see the coming fight and dress accordingly. This matters because every enemy in the game has personalized resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities as makes sense for them as a creature, and you can observe creatures to figure out what they're weakest against without it costing an action (although switching gloves does cost you an action, so best to do your observations from outside combat).

Additionally, there's some options that are just so good that you can leave them on indefinitely if you wish. The standout example is gloves you get after an optional late Act 3 fight (which is probably the hardest fight in the game?):


Gloves Of Soul Catching
Legendary Gloves

Con +2 (max 20). Unarmed strikes +1d10 force damage. 1/turn when you hit with an unarmed strike, you can either heal yourself 10 HP, or grant yourself adv on all attacks/saves until the end of your next turn.

And now, the slight caveat on monks, cuz they also got a bit of a nerf: your attacks no longer automatically count as magic at lvl 5. The reason monks get the most passive damage upgrades, and a whole rainbow of gloves adding extra damage types, is because if somebody is resistant to nonmagical bludgeoning, a magic hammer will bypass that but your fists will not. This is not an insurmountable problem, as there are early Act 3 gloves that allow all attacks (not just unarmed) to bypass physical damage resistances of any kind, but as you can see from the above, late-game glove slots especially for monk have heavy competition. Resistance to magic bludgeoning isn't all that common, especially early on, but as the game progresses enemies that are resistant to nonmagic weapon damage show up more frequently, and that can have a cooling effect.

[Keltest]

Correction, you can only jump equal to your movement speed in combat. Out of combat you can jump as far as your str allows.

[Mastikator]

Correction, you can only jump equal to your movement speed in combat. Out of combat you can jump as far as your str allows.

I've regularly jumped farther than my speed in combat :smallconfused: the rules for jumping don't change when you enter combat.

[Witty Username]

Jumping and Tavern Brawler are strength based though aren't they?
Strength would still be a 3rd stat for monk wouldn't it? So jumping not as far and Tavern Brawler not getting as much benefit.

Also the quick trip to the wiki got me the stillness of mind. Funnily enough they describe the change as a nerf, because any charm or frightened effect will cost an action even if it wasn't a concern for the situation.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah I have no idea why people are saying jumping is limited to movement in-combat cuz it's pretty clearly not. You spend 3m worth of movement to jump, regardless of what your jump distance is, and at high Str values this can exceed your remaining movement, or even just flat-out exceed your movement entirely if you're particularly slow like a dwarf or gnome. This is to say nothing of class features and spells that increase jump distance but not movement - every person who's ever played a githyanki has at some point jumped further with a bonus action than they could've dashed, because high-Str jumps getting tripled is just a better way to get around in combat.


Jumping and Tavern Brawler are strength based though aren't they?
Strength would still be a 3rd stat for monk wouldn't it? So jumping not as far and Tavern Brawler not getting as much benefit.

Also the quick trip to the wiki got me the stillness of mind. Funnily enough they describe the change as a nerf, because any charm or frightened effect will cost an action even if it wasn't a concern for the situation.

The changes to jumping and especially Tavern Brawler (adding str to atk/dmg twice for unarmed) make Str a lot more important than it is in the base game. However, one doesn't have to make huge sacrifices in Dex/Wis to achieve this, as even in the early game potions of giant strength and their ingredients aren't exactly rare, will give you Str 21 regardless of your base Str, and will last all day. This can allow a monk with starting Dex 16/Wis 16 to have a monstrous attack/damage routine regularly without sacrificing AC, saves, perception, or initiative.

[Witty Username]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

[AvatarVecna]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

It's debatable. Like, you can have an elixir of giant strength and have your Str needs covered forever...but there's a lot of good elixirs. If you have good str already and your attacks/damage is covered, you could for example have an elixir of bloodlust, which gives you temp HP and an extra action up to 1/turn when you kill somebody. That lasts all day. Is it better for the aforementioned Dex 16/Wis 16 monk than the elixir of giant strength, which would give him +7 to attack/damage on top of what he already has? That depends on if you're already really good at killing stuff, really. Giant strength makes it more likely you'll finish off targets, but if you're already oneshotting most stuff, getting more actions is better. And there's other good elixirs as well.

[LudicSavant]

Jumping and Tavern Brawler are strength based though aren't they? Strength Monks are a thing in BG3. You can get big strength boosts from items, or you could even go for a heavily armored, shield-wielding Monk setup if you want.

[Dr.Samurai]

The issue with "martials being good" is that so long as spells can approximate what martials can do plus do other stuff, martials will never be good enough for some people. You can always just play a spellcaster to do that and more.

Martials are already good in 5e. They're a blast to play. If some people need more than that, that's on them, and that's fine too.

[Thane of Fife]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

They just showcased a speed run of BG3 a few weeks ago at Awesome Games Done Quick, and I think Strength was the stat they set as their highest, despite, if I recall correctly, playing as a wizard.

[diplomancer]

They just showcased a speed run of BG3 a few weeks ago at Awesome Games Done Quick, and I think Strength was the stat they set as their highest, despite, if I recall correctly, playing as a wizard.

Speedruns, fun and impressive as they can be, are not a good parameter for evaluating the game. On a speedrun, you're not getting Str potions and items.


Moreover a dirty secret is that even when you do set off a trap in BG3, they're rarely that dangerous. I set off a few in Act 3 on the run where I had Gale doing my disarming that I mentioned, and it teneded to just result in a small burst of flame for 10-20 or so damage, which isn't a big deal at the levels you're at in Act 3. (This was on Tactician difficulty.)

Maybe setting some off in Act 1 when your health is so much lower would be much more hazardous, but that's when their DCs are mostly 10, so it doesn't take much to consistently to disarm them.

I got distracted and triggered a trap in Act 3 that wiped out almost all of my summons and got my party to below half health. In a Honour Run, no less. Had I not started the day off, as I usually do, with max level Aid and Heroes' Feast, it might even have killed the party. It's true that this just meant that I had to take a Long Rest right after, but it was the second scariest moment of my run so far.

Speaking generally, I feel my party is in more danger of traps than of most combats. Combats can be controlled better.


The points have all been made, but one I didn't see, or maybe just missed over.

Have we covered Haste working BETTER than it's supposed to? Not the Caster casts twice but the Martials literally get double their attacks instead of just one extra?

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

Unfortunately, this was nerfed for Honour Mode, now hasted attack only grants you one extra attack (but you can still cast 2 spells... to be fair, usually you're just burning resources faster, while the buffed up attacks of a Martial can be done all day)

[Zevox]

I got distracted and triggered a trap in Act 3 that wiped out almost all of my summons and got my party to below half health. In a Honour Run, no less. It's true that this just meant that I had to take a Long Rest right after, but it was the second scariest moment of my run so far.

Speaking generally, I feel my party is in more danger of traps than of most combats. Combats can be controlled better.
That hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe they vastly increased their deadliness in Honor Mode? I haven't played that (and likely won't, due to the "one auto-save and nothing else" part).

[DeTess]

That hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe they vastly increased their deadliness in Honor Mode? I haven't played that (and likely won't, due to the "one auto-save and nothing else" part).

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

[animewatcha]

Another thing is that there is no attunement in BG3.

[diplomancer]

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

This. Those chain reactions are scary.

Meanwhile, for most combats, even if things go south, you can usually run away.

[Crusher]

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

Yeah, seriously. By FAR the scariest thing in the game is a big bunch of explosive barrels, because there are a lot of ways to set things on fire and you are one "oops" away from annihilating your party.

I'm reasonably fond of the Zhentarim Hideout folks, but its just SO easy to shove the boss lady off the cliff and then chain-reaction detonate all the barrels of smokepower down there with a single Firebolt, killing half of more of the Zhents, that I basically never skip it. Those dead Zhents? They could be your party.

[Witty Username]

Yeah, seriously. By FAR the scariest thing in the game is a big bunch of explosive barrels, because there are a lot of ways to set things on fire and you are one "oops" away from annihilating your party.


Me: "you know maybe it was a bad idea to go for Wall of Fire in the Fireworks store"
My Gale headcannon: "In fairness, it was totally worth it though"

[Kane0]

Also those damn blights. Thought i was being clever chokepointing them on a narrow slope for convenient fireball formation, but the two tanks holding them there got demolished.

[elyktsorb]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

I honestly don't think so. There are plenty of str potions, as well as a few items that can set your strength score higher. In my 2 playthroughs, both of my Str monks had base strength of 8.

I mean optimally, I can also basically cheese most of the fights for the entirety of the first act by just stealth killing everything.

[diplomancer]

Me: "you know maybe it was a bad idea to go for Wall of Fire in the Fireworks store"
My Gale headcannon: "In fairness, it was totally worth it though"

Yeah, my distraction was on the basement of the Fireworks store. Not good.

I don't know if anyone else has seen this or if it's an Honour Run special. When I was at the Fireworks store, I detonated the 3rd floor, as I usually do. Imagine my surprise when this drew the attention of about 20 (!) Flaming Fists, who came up and did not even try to arrest me, just straight to combat. I was in a good defensive position inside the store (and had a small army of undead and summons), or that might have been it for me... it was right after that veeeeeery long combat that I had my distraction moment.

[Mastikator]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

I'd say yes. There's a potion that permanently increases strength by 2 which can set your strength to 22. The potion of hill giant strength goes to 21, there is a club that raises your strength to 19. There is gauntlets of frost giant strength that goes to 23, but then you're missing out on helldusk gloves. Your best bet as a strength character is use the items and potions that don't increase strength but rather does something else, then put the strength items on weak characters specifically to improve jumping, throwing and carrying.
Having 19 strength on a wizard may seem wasteful until you realize that throwing smokepowder bombs is as good as fireball.

Strength is IMO approximately as good as dexterity in BG3. You don't really wanna dump either, but point buy and MAD classes will as usual force you to have weaknesses.

[Witty Username]

Strength is IMO approximately as good as dexterity in BG3. You don't really wanna dump either, but point buy and MAD classes will as usual force you to have weaknesses.

I do think, outside of my personal preferences, Intelligence and Charisma seem pretty reducable.

Charisma needs really only one character to bring it, so it is a safe hit for most others without much pain. And even with the expanded dialog, Intelligence seems kinda light still.

I say all of this with my primary playthrough being a barbarian that dumped both, and proceeded to be fine as the primary party conversationalist. I can't rule out that is due to Gith being busted or if the game is a bit forgiving in that direction.

[Keltest]

I do think, outside of my personal preferences, Intelligence and Charisma seem pretty reducable.

Charisma needs really only one character to bring it, so it is a safe hit for most others without much pain. And even with the expanded dialog, Intelligence seems kinda light still.

I say all of this with my primary playthrough being a barbarian that dumped both, and proceeded to be fine as the primary party conversationalist. I can't rule out that is due to Gith being busted or if the game is a bit forgiving in that direction.

Charisma is a handy stat to have on your main character because there are a lot of cool things locked behind dialogue checks that use charisma. Beyond that, its a casting stat for some classes, take it or leave it as necessary.

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

[diplomancer]

Charisma is a handy stat to have on your main character because there are a lot of cool things locked behind dialogue checks that use charisma. Beyond that, its a casting stat for some classes, take it or leave it as necessary.

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

I'd advise not to dump Cha, and to have proficiency in at least one of the Cha-skills, preferably persuasion. You can usually have a 12 in Cha without sacrificing anything. I'm using a Mod that has more spells, and Druidcraft gives you advantage on Intimidation, it was perfect for my very evil Spores Druid Durge.

Once you get to act 3, if you become a partial Illithid you can get Expertise in all 3 Cha-skills, making all Cha checks a lot easier

[Witty Username]

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

I got a decent amount of this having fairly low investment though, the checks seem to be around 10 like most other things. I got both the Jergal and Myrkul references off my barbarian with a -1 for example, and the ones that every party member checks feel pretty likely for someone to succeed.

[Luccan]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it

Edit: I also think BG3 is doing a lot of work in the background that you would have to do yourself in 5e. Even if your DM let you carry dozens of explosive oil barrels as long as you had the carrying capacity, you'd still have to calculate that by hand at the table. BG3 does every calculation for you, so actions that would be a pain in the ass to adjudicate at the table (and therefore probably not worth everyone's time to do in most combats) take literally a couple of clicks in BG3.

[LudicSavant]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it

Edit: I also think BG3 is doing a lot of work in the background that you would have to do yourself in 5e. Even if your DM let you carry dozens of explosive oil barrels as long as you had the carrying capacity, you'd still have to calculate that by hand at the table. BG3 does every calculation for you, so actions that would be a pain in the ass to adjudicate at the table (and therefore probably not worth everyone's time to do in most combats) take literally a couple of clicks in BG3.

In D&D 5e (rather than BG3), a barrel of that physical size would be very heavy and just sort of get nudged around, slowly, by a 20 strength character (rather than majestically thrown across the map with a big ol' explosion).

Pretty much everything about the Strength stat is scaled up in BG3. Shoves are bonus actions and can launch you 20+ feet. Jumps are bonus actions that add extra mobility, and can scale beyond your normal movement speed (potentially far beyond). Objects like barrels are lightened to help you carry them around. Thrown weapons no longer require extra action economy to draw, and have considerably greater effective range (a handaxe in 5e would only be able to attack up to 20 feet without disadvantage, while in BG3 it's 60 feet).

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, the game is like "hey we have this cool vague option about improvising actions, you should use it" and it hardly ever seems worth doing. Not as accurate, crap damage, single attack vs multiple attacks, etc.

Would be great if the Strength score had a chart about how far you can throw objects of different weights and the types of damage they do, etc. and it was actually worth doing.

[Sorinth]

In D&D 5e (rather than BG3), a barrel of that physical size would be very heavy and just sort of get nudged around, slowly, by a 20 strength character (rather than majestically thrown across the map with a big ol' explosion).

Pretty much everything about the Strength stat is scaled up in BG3. Shoves are bonus actions and can launch you 20+ feet. Jumps are bonus actions that add extra mobility, and can scale beyond your normal movement speed (potentially far beyond). Objects like barrels are lightened to help you carry them around. Thrown weapons no longer require extra action economy to draw, and have considerably greater effective range (a handaxe in 5e would only be able to attack up to 20 feet without disadvantage, while in BG3 it's 60 feet).

But you don't have a grapple option in BG3 so you do lose out on some stuff relative to table top version. But yeah the BA movement and Shove are quite good, as is just picking up an enemy and throwing them.

One that I haven't seen mentioned is the stealth vision cones. They help the strength character way more than the stealth focused dex characters because you can more often then not get right up next to a creature without ever having to make a roll, especially since you can jump through the vision cones without breaking stealth so the extra movement from jump helps even more.

[Zevox]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it
:smallconfused: That seems completely backwards. Flying is, as far as I've seen, always better than grounded movement - you straight-up move further with flying movement than grounded in every instance I've ever seen in the game, including
the flight you can gain on everyone from using the Astral Tadpole.
Also, jumping lets you move further because it's based on a formula based on your strength. You spend 10 ft of movement flat to use it, but can get more than 10 ft of movement from it as long as your strength is decent. Don't remember the exact formula or at what strength score you're getting more than you're spending, but it doesn't take much, so your high-strength characters will always gain a pretty substantial amount of movement when using jump as compared to not using it. Get your strength high enough or use the Jump spell and you'll get distances above your ordinary movement speed.