Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels

[Rebel7284]

Consider


- Aberration Blood
- Aberration Wildshape
- Natural Spell

- Extend Spell
- Persistent Spell
- DMM Persistent Spell

- Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead)



- Extend Spell
- Persistent Spell
- DMM Persistent Spell
- Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead)

Learn Polymorph from someone with the Transformation domain


At 10 or more HD, Wildshape/Polymorph into Rot Reaver (MM3 p. 142) and use your newfound rebuke undead uses to Persist a spell or two.
Notably this is probably repeatable, allowing you to burn Wildshape/Polymorph uses for more persisted spells.

Some DMs might have an issue with a character taking DMM while only having Rebuke Undead part of the time, but the rules specifically cover what happens if you lose the prerequisites for a feat.
Specifically for a druid between Wildshape's long duration and possibly some help from the Bone Talisman spell, you may be able to Turn Undead continuously for a level or two if necessary.

Drawbacks:
That's a LOT of feats. The druid version takes 7(!) and as per Eggynack, the definitive expert on Druids, DMM is less important to Druids anyway. Therefore, this approach may be more appropriate if your game features ways of getting extra feats. Whether it's something like Flaws, Pathfinder's Feat progression, or something a little more OP like the Dark Chaos feat shuffle.

Aside: Rot Reaver + Assume Supernatural Ability could also give free Animate Dead, but there are easier ways of doing that.

[ShurikVch]

Alternatively, you can use form of Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip (Monster Manual V):

Divine Talent (Ex) Kuo-toa exalted whips cast spells, gain granted powers from domains, and rebuke undead as 8th-level evil clerics.

Less feat-expensive way is to take God Touched and Divine Channeler feats (both are from Dragon #305): it's just 1/day, and at half of your character level - but for DMM it's not so important, and daily uses could be fixed via Extra Turning feat or magic items (Nightstick?)

[Biggus]

Some DMs might have an issue with a character taking DMM while only having Rebuke Undead part of the time, but the rules specifically cover what happens if you lose the prerequisites for a feat.
Specifically for a druid between Wildshape's long duration and possibly some help from the Bone Talisman spell, you may be able to Turn Undead continuously for a level or two if necessary.


It is rather dubious; the PHB says you level up "at the end of each adventure" (p.58) and don't specify how long it takes to level up, so it's very much a DM call whether temporary abilities count or not. Of course, if you can make an ability continuous that isn't an issue.

[Rebel7284]

Alternatively, you can use form of Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip (Monster Manual V):

Thanks for adding that option! I see some issues with this one.

- Ex ability and explicitly listed under under special qualities means that Assume supernatural ability doesn't work on it and polymorph says:


... does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form ...

- Now if you can wildshape into Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip, it would be nifty since Enhance Wildshape would then give you turning, saving you a feat!
However, outside of Master of Many forms 3, I don't recall any way to easily wildshape into monstrous humanoids.

- 10 HD doesn't make it any faster than Rot Reaver, however if the issues above could be resolved without using too many resources, it could be an interesting alternative!


Less feat-expensive way is to take God Touched and Divine Channeler feats (both are from Dragon #305): it's just 1/day, and at half of your character level - but for DMM it's not so important, and daily uses could be fixed via Extra Turning feat or magic items (Nightstick?)

2 feats + 3 for DMM = 5, so easier for a Druid, but more expensive for an archivist. However, as it only gives you one Turn Attempt, you then need extra resources to get you more. It's okay if nightsticks stack, but otherwise Extra Turning is a feat!

In addition, while the Druid method takes 7 feats, one of those is Natural Spell, which you were going to take anyway, and it's not like Aberration Wildshape isn't one of the most broken Druid feats already, so really, it's 4 extra feats for a druid too.

The main advantage of the god touched method is that you don't spend half your career not qualifying for DMM, but you do pay for that elegance with an extra feat + other resources.

Sadly many DMs and most of the forum competitions ban Dragon Magazine, which is a pity, plenty of interesting content there and it's still less broken than core. :smallwink:

Edit:
Also, I am fully aware that Shapechange would save you from taking Assume Supernatural Ability/Enhance Wildshape uses and give you all the Rebuke Undead uses you need. However, Shapechange is SUCH a broken beast that it barely matters at that point.

[ShurikVch]

One more variant - Xag-Ya/Xeg-Yi (Manual of the Planes) They're both just 5 HD
But - being Outsiders - the only (IIRR) ways to Wild Shape into them are Planar Shepherd and 3.0 Shifter; Polymorph and PAO are don't allow Incorporeal forms...

[Buufreak]

I'm not understanding how this is working without levels.

[Tohron]

Taking any divine metamagic feat requires that you already have the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a prerequisite, unfortunately (unless you already accounted for that - the time the feats are taken relative to the wildshape/polymorph is unclear).

[Saintheart]

One more variant - Xag-Ya/Xeg-Yi (Manual of the Planes) They're both just 5 HD
But - being Outsiders - the only (IIRR) ways to Wild Shape into them are Planar Shepherd and 3.0 Shifter; Polymorph and PAO are don't allow Incorporeal forms...

On the plus side, Planar Shepherd specifically allows you to take up such an Outsider's (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) abilities, if it's native to the chosen plane.

[Rebel7284]

I'm not understanding how this is working without levels.

There are no levels that grant turn or rebuke undead. This only uses feats/spells. So if you don't have class levels available (say you really want a capstone or something), you have that option.


Taking any divine metamagic feat requires that you already have the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a prerequisite, unfortunately (unless you already accounted for that - the time the feats are taken relative to the wildshape/polymorph is unclear).

I note this in the OP that you may need to have a conversation with your DM about this. In general, it's not unheard of to take feats that affect abilities that you only have part of the time. For example, the flavor text of Steel Dragons talks about them preferring to be in alternate form most of the time, but I am pretty sure they can still take weapon focus[claw].

Certain builds can also stay in Wildshape long enough to have Rebuke Undead 24/7 if they want for a fairly extended period of time.

Bone Talisman definitely gives you the ability to turn undead for 10 minutes/level, and you have extend spell, so filling your second and some third level slots with this spell might be enough.

In addition, in certain campaigns you can even diplomance a Heirophant to just give you turn/rebuke undead for a week and do an adventure in that time span and level up. (Yes, if you can do it reliably every week, just do that and don't spend a feat on Assume Supernatural Ability, but that might be hard if it's not a cohort.)

So there are multiple approaches to resolving that prerequisite and they vary depending on specific build and campaign.

Edit:
It is true that depending on the build (short duration form changing effects) and DM ruling (must qualify 24/7 for several days/weeks and no Heirophants), this may not work in your campaign.

Edit:

On the plus side, Planar Shepherd specifically allows you to take up such an Outsider's (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) abilities, if it's native to the chosen plane.

Ah yes, another one of many reasons why Planar Shepherd is silly. 😂

Admittedly, it can be fairly difficult to determine what plane a particular outsider should be on, not to mention how strange it gets when switching from Eberon to other cosmologies.

Edit:
Ultimately the combo boils down to hey, here is ONE feat that gives you rebuking. Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead). I simply added some context about interesting ways to use that. I can definitely see builds who already have turning via sacred exorcist or something just taking ASA rather than Extra Turning since it adds way more turn attempts per day.

I hope my addendum, listed as "edit" are less annoying than posting 4-5 times in a row. 🤣😂

[Rebel7284]

One more variant - Xag-Ya/Xeg-Yi (Manual of the Planes) They're both just 5 HD
But - being Outsiders - the only (IIRR) ways to Wild Shape into them are Planar Shepherd and 3.0 Shifter; Polymorph and PAO are don't allow Incorporeal forms...

If Alter Self works with Assume Supernatural Ability, then this could be a MUCH earlier way of accessing Turn/Rebuke undead. This either limits your type to outsider or you have to be able to gain the outsider type (which multiple cleric spells and Polymorph allow.)
Unclear if this form can do verbal components though. Hmm.

[Prime32]

If you ever want DMM on a sorcerer...

Play a wyrmling Steel DragonDoF (4d12 HD, LA +2) with the Lightbringer sovereign archetypeDoE. You can take Extra Turning without meeting the prerequisites, gaining turn undead 4/day as a cleric of your sorcerer caster level (normally 1st). You also add cleric, Glory, Law, Sun and War spells to your sorcerer spell list.

Note that besides Practiced Spellcaster, you can cancel out the LA by taking one as a cohort with the Dragon Leadership feat. And that the Abjurant Champion capstone (use your BAB as your caster level) also works well for dragons.

[ShurikVch]

If you ever want DMM on a sorcerer...
Unfortunately, DMM is kinda pointless on a Sorcerer:

Benefit
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.
Thus, unless Sorcerer casts divine spells somehow - DMM wouldn't do a thing for them...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Just for the "probably repeatable" part, it most certainly isn't. The way X/day abilities are handled is "I want to use my ability A, that I've used N times today and can use X times per day. If N<X, I can use it, otherwise I cannot". If you lose then regain the ability to turn undead, it does not change the fact that you already used 7 of them today, and thus cannot use another Persistent Spell.

This ruling comes originally from FAQ (quoted in "https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9ghpyr/35_turn_undead/") and applies initially to temporary Cha bonuses, but the wording should apply to any gain of temporary uses of a specific ability, and since we don't have any actual rules on how to handle gaining temporary limited-use abilities, this is our most trustworthy source on how things "should" work.

[Rebel7284]

Just for the "probably repeatable" part, it most certainly isn't. The way X/day abilities are handled is "I want to use my ability A, that I've used N times today and can use X times per day. If N<X, I can use it, otherwise I cannot". If you lose then regain the ability to turn undead, it does not change the fact that you already used 7 of them today, and thus cannot use another Persistent Spell.

This ruling comes originally from FAQ (quoted in "https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9ghpyr/35_turn_undead/") and applies initially to temporary Cha bonuses, but the wording should apply to any gain of temporary uses of a specific ability, and since we don't have any actual rules on how to handle gaining temporary limited-use abilities, this is our most trustworthy source on how things "should" work.

Well the issue is that it was never made clear if you gain an ability with a limit on uses. Use it, and then gain that ability again later, if you are gaining the SAME ability or a new instance of the ability.

Simple example: You turn into a creature with an ability of Fireball 3/day. You use the fireball twice. Later in the day, you turn into the same creature. Do you have 3 or 1 fireballs remaining?

A more impactful example: Shapechanging into a Zodar and using their SU: Wish 1/year. What happens if you Shapechange into a Zodar again the next day? Is it the same ability? Does it know that you already used it?

The Zodar example makes it tempting to make all abilities have a perfect memory even when gained temporarily. However, that is a balance ruling and most people don't care as much when it's fireball. :smallsmile:

Also, assuming your DM does indeed decide to track ability uses, what counts as a unique ability? Could you get 2-3 instances of Rebuke Undead by switching to completely different creatures that happen to grant it? What about back to the fireball case, what happens if you take a form of a creature that has fireball 3/day but then take a form of a completely different creature with fireball 1/day?

I will grant that saying probably repeatable may have been a mistake. It's probably a huge rules ambiguity though. :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

An obvious implication: A Destroy Undead Cleric[animal domain] 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Cleric <n> can actually use 3 pools for persistomancy at high level (Destroy Undead, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead).

[Rebel7284]

An obvious implication: A Destroy Undead Cleric[animal domain] 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Cleric <n> can actually use 3 pools for persistomancy at high level (Destroy Undead, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead).

If the manual of the planes critters are on the table and can cast spells, the sacred exorcist dip may even be unnecessary if you are starting at high levels.

[Chronos]

A few months back, I suggested an interpretation that abilities that work X times per day, or the like, start off on cooldown, not active, so if you changed into a form with Turn Undead 3 times per day, or whatever, you'd need to stay in that form for a full day before you could use it at all (this would also affect abilities with a shorter cooldown, but once per 1d4 rounds or whatever would be much easier to manage). It's a fairly small change, but it does a lot to rein in the power of most of the form-changing spells and effects.

[Anthrowhale]

If the manual of the planes critters are on the table and can cast spells, the sacred exorcist dip may even be unnecessary if you are starting at high levels.

A drawback of using form changing magic to access turning pools is that you can't simultaneously benefit from Shapechange[Tome Dragon] which can reduce the cost of metamagic by 3.

[Rebel7284]

A drawback of using form changing magic to access turning pools is that you can't simultaneously benefit from Shapechange[Tome Dragon] which can reduce the cost of metamagic by 3.

This is true, but may not matter terribly for persistent spell, depending on how many different turn/rebuke pools you can access. Of course if you're trying to do something like persist AND maximize together, it does.

[Saintheart]

Unfortunately, DMM is kinda pointless on a Sorcerer:

Thus, unless Sorcerer casts divine spells somehow - DMM wouldn't do a thing for them...

Cheese Geomancer/Alternate Source Spell/Mulan Human. :)

Or, Dragonblood Spellpact which allows you to just freely swap spells known between yours and a friend's lists, and IIRC doesn't even specify whether those spells remain divine or arcane. It's even written for Sorcerers specifically.