PDA

View Full Version : Bottom Worst Spells of 3.5 by level



Malphegor
2024-02-13, 06:25 AM
I was wondering what the 'worst' spells, powers, mysteries, invocations, etc, are for their level in 3.5, but couldn't find much recently

(For some reason, forums and discussions seem to focus on the good and powerful??? Weird behaviour),
and it'd be neat to know- not to avoid, but to create a character who uses the worst options of all of 3.5 effectively and still does well anyway. As a power move, ya know?

On the powers side, Slow Breathing: +4 vs altitude sickness is weak for a 1st level power. I guess 0th level ones don't exist in 3.5 unless you forward port a PRC that gives them back, but I'd hesitate to ever use this, especially as once high altitude flight is viable you typically have so much gas based stuff going on you're fine

Curse
2024-02-13, 06:43 AM
My best starting guess would be "Death Grimace" lvl1 (BoVD) - it does nothing but leaving your magical signature on a corpse, "identifying himself (truthfully or falsely) as the murderer".
How about signalling everyone with or without a little access to divination to hunt you down ...?

Kurald Galain
2024-02-13, 06:53 AM
If Pathfinder counts, then I nominate the spell Poisoned Egg. It, well, poisons an egg. For a couple minutes. With a low-DC poison that deals small amounts of dex damage. And then it becomes normal again, except (as the spell points out) against creatures vulnerable to eggs.

Yup.

Inevitability
2024-02-13, 06:58 AM
Iron Body does very little except give construct immunities, impose a 50% arcane spell failure, and grant an enhancement bonus to a stat wizards don't want an enhancement bonus to. As an 8th-level spell, it's ridiculously overpriced. Even if you get it on a divine caster, it's not all that good.


Also, Blight feels very overpriced for what it does. You want to hurt a plant creature, then a regular low-level damaging spell will often be a better bet. And if you're casting it to destroy a single large plant... why? When is that something you desperately need to do?

Curse
2024-02-13, 07:08 AM
How about "Crunchy Snow"?
It causes 20x20ft of snow per lvl to be crunchy - having the single effect of making it hard to sneak on (-20 is severe though).

Batcathat
2024-02-13, 07:13 AM
If Pathfinder counts, then I nominate the spell Poisoned Egg. It, well, poisons an egg. For a couple minutes. With a low-DC poison that deals small amounts of dex damage. And then it becomes normal again, except (as the spell points out) against creatures vulnerable to eggs.

Yup.

I wonder if this spell has ever been used in any of the build competitions? I would personally love to see what sort of glorious insanity would be the result of a dedicated optimizer trying to murder the world with poisoned eggs.

Inevitability
2024-02-13, 07:23 AM
Vecna's Malevolent Whisper is another fun one: it's [Death] and [Mind-Affecting] so a million creatures are immune, it only works against creatures with 10 or fewer HP, it allows SR, and the sole effect is to put the target at -9 HP (causing them to die next turn).

Firstly there's the targeting issue: unless you're using this on a random commoner you have no way of knowing what creatures are going to have too much HP to use this on. More importantly, any half-decent blasting spell should already be able to reliably deal 10 damage even on a succesful save; something like Orb of Force is going to be better in the vast majority of cases, even at level 7 when it's weakest.

I suppose you could deliberately gloss over the word 'reduce' and argue this lets you heal up your frenzied berserker buddy?

Curse
2024-02-13, 07:56 AM
Vecna's Malevolent Whisper is another fun one

Maybe because it only uses vocal component you can use it on your geriatric prison guard while you are shackled? 🤔

Gnaeus
2024-02-13, 09:14 AM
Speak with plants. Non creature plants are highly unlikely to have any information you care about. Creature plants overwhelmingly either just want to eat you or have easier methods of communication.

Beni-Kujaku
2024-02-13, 10:02 AM
Level 1: I am having a really hard time even imagining a use case for Slow Burn.
Level 2: Extend Tentacles, is just appalling. Not only do you need to have tentacles in the first place (and which wizard would invest resources in order to put themselves in melee instead of casting), it uses your action for the ridiculous effect of increasing your reach by 5ft only, and for only 1rd/level.
Level 3: Daylight is basically the effect of a cantrip in a slightly larger radius. Dispelling magical darkness is not worth it.
Level 4: Crushing Despair inflicts basically the same effect as a saved Fear on a failed save.
Level 5: Insect Plague is effectively 2d6 damage out of a level 5 slot.
Level 6: Tenser's transformation. Sometimes you want a fighter in your party. You don't want to become the fighter, and you certainly don't want to become a featless armorless fighter that cannot use items and has already used their first standard action of the fight.
Level 7: Legend Lore is a level 7 spell in the Knowledge domain. A level 7 spell with expensive material component and focus, requiring a casting time of half the in-game duration of a campaign, and giving "vague and incomplete lore" on a place of legendary importance. Nope.
Level 8: I'll nominate Megalodon Empowerment as a Druid 8th level spell. It gives worse abilities than the Wild Shape you've had for about 10 levels now.
Stormrage is also extremely bad. Two standard actions for the equivalent of a Fly spell and a Lightning Bolt is not a good rate for an 8th level spell.
Level 9: Greater Revitalize Legacy. Using a 9th level spell to regain a use of a 4-7 level spell is bad.

Metastachydium
2024-02-13, 11:06 AM
Speak with plants. Non creature plants are highly unlikely to have any information you care about. Creature plants overwhelmingly either just want to eat you or have easier methods of communication.

For reasons I'm certain I've stated before elsewhere, this is just plainly untrue, if one approaches plant perception from a scientific point of view. Further,
–one (be them PC or DM) either buys into what the game says, and treats it just like Speak with Animals or whatnot regardless; or
–one will have to conclude Stone Tell is the single worst spell in the game, because despite being much higher level, it doesn't, and indeed cannot ever do anything (you find the senses and memory of planties insufficient? Try dirt; it doesn't have either).


Also, Blight feels very overpriced for what it does. You want to hurt a plant creature, then a regular low-level damaging spell will often be a better bet.

Or be Gnaeus, I suppose. I know I feel hurt.

Gnaeus
2024-02-13, 11:18 AM
For reasons I'm certain I've stated before elsewhere, this is just plainly untrue, if one approaches plant perception from a scientific point of view. Further,
–one (be them PC or DM) either buys into what the game says, and treats it just like Speak with Animals or whatnot regardless; or
–one will have to conclude Stone Tell is the single worst spell in the game, because despite being much higher level, it doesn't, and indeed cannot ever do anything (you find the senses and memory of planties insufficient? Try dirt; it doesn't have either).

And you were wrong there also. It is specifically limited to both the sensory abilities and the memory of a plant

Stone tell is not commonly a good spell. But it DOES say it can "relate to you who or what has touched them as well as revealing what is covered or concealed behind or under them" Which does seem to directly contradict the next line "A stone’s perspective, perception, and knowledge may prevent the stone from providing the details you are looking for". So if the DM thinks line 1 governs, Stone Tell >>> Speak with plants, because a plant is almost never going to be able to tell you what touched them or what is concealed behind or under them. If line 2 governs, Stone Tell and Speak with Plants both qualify as useless.


Or be Gnaeus, I suppose. I know I feel hurt.

A spell to kill plant creatures is at least situationally useful. Its worth having as a prepared caster so that if you know you are facing a bunch of evil advanced treants you could memorize it. I wouldn't want it on like a fixed list. Blight is also a highly campaign specific utility spell, as it can autokill a plant non-creature of any size in a standard action. So if you have some kind of mile high fantasy super-tree with the elf capital nestled in the branches, they're in serious danger. If for some reason you want to kill an Integral Tree, accept no substitutes. That use, I admit, is SUPER niche. But it has the potential to be campaign defining if it is important.

Metastachydium
2024-02-13, 11:40 AM
And you were wrong there also. It is specifically limited to both the sensory abilities and the memory of a plant

Stone tell is not commonly a good spell. But it DOES say it can "relate to you who or what has touched them as well as revealing what is covered or concealed behind or under them" Which does seem to directly contradict the next line "A stone’s perspective, perception, and knowledge may prevent the stone from providing the details you are looking for". So if the DM thinks line 1 governs, Stone Tell >>> Speak with plants, because a plant is almost never going to be able to tell you what touched them or what is concealed behind or under them. If line 2 governs, Stone Tell and Speak with Plants both qualify as useless.

Ah, what could I possibly say to such an argument as "no you wrong"? Best I can think of is refer to my own previous, detailed response to your concerns, including an explanation of why "plants can't tell what's under them" might seem true – if one doesn't really know how plants even work (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25908848&postcount=23).

Also, by the same token, Speak with Plants specifies in its text (http://dndsrd.net/spellsS.html#speak-with-plants) that

[a] regular plant’s sense of its surroundings is limited, so it won’t be able to give (or recognize) detailed descriptions of creatures or answer questions about events outside its immediate vicinity.

If you choose to read that as "plants can never recall or describe anything", be my guest, but all I actually see is that any description will likely be incomplete or not particularly detailed. Heck, it says plants can answer questions about events in their immediate vicinity. That these somehow must be present events is your own interpretation with no basis in the rules text.

Gnaeus
2024-02-13, 12:36 PM
Ah, what could I possibly say to such an argument as "no you wrong"? Best I can think of is refer to my own previous, detailed response to your concerns, including an explanation of why "plants can't tell what's under them" might seem true – if one doesn't really know how plants even work (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25908848&postcount=23).

Also, by the same token, Speak with Plants specifies in its text (http://dndsrd.net/spellsS.html#speak-with-plants) that

If you choose to read that as "plants can never recall or describe anything", be my guest, but all I actually see is that any description will likely be incomplete or not particularly detailed. Heck, it says plants can answer questions about events in their immediate vicinity. That these somehow must be present events is your own interpretation with no basis in the rules text.

Plant. May be able to say "Something touched me" Virtually never useful. Was it a squirrel? The plant doesn't know and neither do you. Rock. Can relate to you "Who or What touched them" IDK how. But it says they can. It is obviously not limited by the nonexistent senses of a rock. The rock can clearly, definitionally tell you what is buried behind or under them. Why? Again, IDK, rocks have no senses, maybe thats why it is a 6th level spell. The plant may know that there is some organic matter or something its roots can't penetrate. Is that a dead elk, or a person? A rock, or a chest? Again, the plant doesn't know the difference. It is limited by both the plants senses and its ability to understand what it is sensing. When you are done, you know that there is something useful or non-useful under the tree, which you presumably suspected before you cast a spell to talk to it. It is a spell only useful if understanding weather patterns or termite activity somehow helps you. The Rock MAY (depending on the interplay between clause 1 and clause 2) be able to tell you "An Orc (who or what touched me) hid a chest (What is concealed under them)" which may actually be useful enough to tell you whether you need to get out the pickaxe. The SPELL is clearly giving some level of retroactive senses and memory to the ROCK, because otherwise it would never be able to do what the spell says it can do.



If you choose to read that as "plants can never recall or describe anything", be my guest, but all I actually see is that any description will likely be incomplete or not particularly detailed. Heck, it says plants can answer questions about events in their immediate vicinity. That these somehow must be present events is your own interpretation with no basis in the rules text.

The spell clearly does not improve the intelligence of the plant. It points out that stupid plant creatures may make inane comments. Memory is a function of intelligence. A 0 intelligence plant is going to have minimal memory and pathetic understanding. Now I will grant you, that a TREE may have a certain amount of innate physical memory, of things that are important to trees. It presumably would know that 3 years ago was a drought. Or if it was cut with an axe. Unfortunately, knowing that there was a drought several years ago is rarely useful, and anyone with speak with plants can probably tell that it was cut with an axe. What an adventurer would want to know is "3 days ago a band of orcs came through here". Int 0 tree will not remember things not important to it. Tree cannot see or hear orcs. Tree has neither the intelligence nor the senses to tell a band of orcs from a herd of deer. Unless they happened to cut or burn that tree, in which case, the tree would probably both remember and be able to sense it. But again, you could probably figure that out by examining the tree. And even then, it could probably only tell you it was on fire, not presumably how it happened. The spell clarifies it DOES NOT change the senses of the plant, and that it CANT give or understand detailed descriptions.

Troacctid
2024-02-13, 01:02 PM
I don't see what's so wrong with Speak with Plants that it would rank so poorly. It's a little overleveled compared to Speak with Animals, but at least it has a really nice, clear, obvious use case of speaking with plant creatures (which druids often have as minions!), and, like, it's also at the same level as real head-scratchers like Diminish Plants, Daylight, Repel Vermin, and Secret Page—to choose a few examples from the PHB. There's no way it's the worst spell at its level.

Ozreth
2024-02-13, 01:23 PM
For reasons I'm certain I've stated before elsewhere, this is just plainly untrue

Username checks out.

Rebel7284
2024-02-13, 01:31 PM
Megalodon Empowerment is good for one reason only


If you possess the wild shape ability, you can assume the shapes of animals one size category larger than normal.

You cast it, turn into a Gargantuan animal, then dismiss it. Sure it's expensive, but getting access to an EPIC feat for an 8th level slot is not bad.

Inevitability
2024-02-13, 01:45 PM
Megalodon Empowerment is good for one reason only

You cast it, turn into a Gargantuan animal, then dismiss it. Sure it's expensive, but getting access to an EPIC feat for an 8th level slot is not bad.

Gargantuan animals like what? Seems pretty hard to top the dire polar bear (Huge, 39 str, improved grab) even if you're allowed to pull from gargantuan stuff. Maaaaybe the Roc, and even then that's forced to exist in an awkward middle ground where the dragonhawk offers better speed and detection and the DPB offers better combat prowess. If you're willing to spend an 8th-level slot to become a big flying brute, I'd rather go bear mode and use the slot on a proper buff.

Maybe it's nice to turn into a zeuglodon for strictly aquatic combat? Though even then, the lack of improved grapple makes it worse than its ursine cousin in my book - that and the inability to switch over to dry land seamlessly.

Metastachydium
2024-02-13, 03:20 PM
Username checks out.

What can I say? I'm a FLOWER.


Plant. May be able to say "Something touched me" Virtually never useful. Was it a squirrel? The plant doesn't know and neither do you. Rock. Can relate to you "Who or What touched them" IDK how. But it says they can. It is obviously not limited by the nonexistent senses of a rock. The rock can clearly, definitionally tell you what is buried behind or under them. Why? Again, IDK, rocks have no senses, maybe thats why it is a 6th level spell.

No, the description of Stone Tell tells you the stone can tell you if it can perceive and know it, which is never. There. What's so hard to understand about how it's magic?


The plant may know that there is some organic matter or something its roots can't penetrate. Is that a dead elk, or a person? A rock, or a chest? Again, the plant doesn't know the difference. It is limited by both the plants senses and its ability to understand what it is sensing. When you are done, you know that there is something useful or non-useful under the tree, which you presumably suspected before you cast a spell to talk to it. It is a spell only useful if understanding weather patterns or termite activity somehow helps you.

It's a 1 minute/level spell. That's 5 minutes at least for a Druid. If the Druid is not stone cold dumb, asking the right questions to get an approximate shape for underground objects is not rocket science, which helps with the "is it a dead elk" issue. 5 minutes also allows for asking multiple trees, which is still faster than digging up the whole area when you know something should be there but not the exact spot.


The Rock MAY (depending on the interplay between clause 1 and clause 2) be able to tell you "An Orc (who or what touched me) hid a chest (What is concealed under them)" which may actually be useful enough to tell you whether you need to get out the pickaxe. The SPELL is clearly giving some level of retroactive senses and memory to the ROCK, because otherwise it would never be able to do what the spell says it can do.


By your logic, no, because it explicitly says it doesn't make the rock smarter, more perceptive or intelligent. It just doesn't work.


The spell clearly does not improve the intelligence of the plant. It points out that stupid plant creatures may make inane comments. Memory is a function of intelligence. A 0 intelligence plant is going to have minimal memory and pathetic understanding.

Same goes for the stone. And yet, magic.


Now I will grant you, that a TREE may have a certain amount of innate physical memory

All plants do.


Int 0 tree will not remember things not important to it. Tree cannot see or hear orcs. Tree has neither the intelligence nor the senses to tell a band of orcs from a herd of deer.

Twentyfold true for a rock. Plants do technically sense light and pick up vibrations, so they see and hear, after a fashion.


The spell clarifies it DOES NOT change the senses of the plant, and that it CANT give or understand detailed descriptions.

Again, I find it odd that you're so ready to ignore half the text for Stone Tell while insisting that limited means 'none at all' and not detailed likewise means 'none at all'.


I don't see what's so wrong with Speak with Plants that it would rank so poorly. It's a little overleveled compared to Speak with Animals, but at least it has a really nice, clear, obvious use case of speaking with plant creatures (which druids often have as minions!), and, like, it's also at the same level as real head-scratchers like Diminish Plants, Daylight, Repel Vermin, and Secret Page—to choose a few examples from the PHB. There's no way it's the worst spell at its level.

Gnaeus seems to hate this particular spell for some reason (or hates PLANTIES, in which case bad Gnaeus, BAD!) I cannot quite discern. I really don't get it either.


Gargantuan animals like what? Seems pretty hard to top the dire polar bear (Huge, 39 str, improved grab) even if you're allowed to pull from gargantuan stuff.

BATTLETITAN!! 42 STR, Improved Grab and Swallow Whole, plus it's a DINOSAUR. Still only Huge, though.

Rebel7284
2024-02-13, 03:21 PM
I agree that there are not a TON of options for Gargantuan animals, but there are some. Here is an old thread on here that discusses some options: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618131-Gargantuan-Colossal-Wild-Shape

There are definitely niche uses for some of them, combat or otherwise.

Roc does certainly stand out with that strength score + flyer.

Regardless, taking these options into consideration, I don't think the spell can be considered one of the worst anymore.

Troacctid
2024-02-13, 04:31 PM
I feel qualified to weigh in on the worst invocations for each grade.

Least
It has to be soulreaving aura. The use case of death knell is so overwhelmingly narrow, and the temporary hit points you gain by using it are too ephemeral to matter. Honorable mention goes to drain incarnum and its paltry 1 point of Wisdom damage.

Lesser
Definitely no competition in this category: steal incarnum wins hands-down. It's pretty impressive that this invocation manages to have absolutely no effect against literally 100% of the statblocks in all of the Monster Manuals. And even against the enemies that aren't immune to it, a saving throw not only negates it but makes the target immune to it for 24 hours thereafter. And even if they fail the save, the payoff is that you steal a pathetic 1 point of essentia per 5 caster levels, which is...like, it's basically nothing! It's like the equivalent of inflicting the dazzled condition! Worst invocation in the game bar none. Honorable mention goes to thieves' bane, because who in the world thought that at-will hold portal was on the same power level as at-will fly?

Greater
I'm going to say the worst invocation here is almost definitely dragonward, because it is so laser-focused on hating dragons that it forgets to actually do anything to meaningfully inconvenience the dragons it hates. All it does is reduce the damage that dragons deal to you (DR 5 against natural weapons, resistance 20 against breath weapons) and make you immune to frightful presence. That's pretty sad. Honorable mention goes to hindering blast for the embarrassingly atrocious comparison with noxious blast at the same grade.

Dark
The loser here is dark discorporation on a technicality. Due to a rules dysfunction, the invocation prevents you from taking the action required to dismiss it, so you're trapped in swarm form for 24 hours, unable to take any standard actions. Awkward. Assuming you apply a common-sense patch for that particular bug, the next runner-up is probably instill vulnerability, which is just incredibly underwhelming for the level you get it. You need them to fail a Fortitude save against a 7th-level effect, and this is all you're getting out of it? Steal summoning gets an honorable mention for being absurdly narrow, but in its defense, at least when it does work, it probably wins you the fight on the spot.

Worst invocations by spell level:
1. Breath of the Night
2. Soulreaving Aura
3. Thieves' Bane
4. Steal Incarnum
5. Wingstorm
6. Dragonward
7. Instill Vulnerability
8. Dark Discorporation
9. N/A (there's only one invocation at this level and it kicks ass)

RexDart
2024-02-13, 05:01 PM
My best starting guess would be "Death Grimace" lvl1 (BoVD) - it does nothing but leaving your magical signature on a corpse, "identifying himself (truthfully or falsely) as the murderer".
How about signalling everyone with or without a little access to divination to hunt you down ...?

I don't think this one's too bad, but it's definitely an NPC spell, and a way to give a villain with a compulsion (like many Batman villains) a game mechanic way to leave a "calling card," but quickly, and without having to get your hands dirty doing a lot of carving and whatnot. Come to think of it, most slasher villains must have this spell, too.

I think a large percentage of the really terrible-looking spells, abilities, feats, etc. either are the result of being for an NPC, for an extremely specific environment, or both.
And 3rd edition highly encourages any effect that does X to have a game mechanic explanation for why you can do X. And thus, you end up with an official spell providing specific rules for evil assassins desecrating corpses in a flamboyantly magical way instead of just saying "Eh, let him do it with Prestidigitation or something."

Saintheart
2024-02-13, 05:21 PM
At least Speak with Plants allows you to be democratic by pollen your constituency, even if the conversations are all a bit wooden and not much is going to stem from them.

By contrast, Stone Tell rocks.

bekeleven
2024-02-13, 08:25 PM
"Worst" can be defined in a few ways: Most narrow, smallest effect, and largest downside. The first two are often linked. This is because if you're doing something really narrow, you expect it to really pay you off.

Here are a few 9th level spells in the "narrow/small" category, and the "actively painful" category.

Most Narrow
Greater Revitalize Legacy has already been mentioned, but it's not the only 9th level spell that could've been at 3rd or 4th level without issue.
Breath Weapon Admixture doubles your breath weapon damage for 1 round, making it deal an equal amount of another energy type (the save DC goes down if you use sonic). This is for sure an "NPC Boss Dragon" spell because few 17th level wizards would use a 9th level spell to make something else deal more damage, when that other thing also grants a save.
Sublime Revelry cures a small number of lingering effects an then makes its targets (1/level within 30 feet) take half attack damage and get mind blanked for 1 minute per level. I could maybe see some niche situations where this could come up but why would a 17th level cleric prepare this? Also, if you really want the effect, the spell is a sidegrade, not upgrade but sidegrade, to the 7th level spell Empyreal Ecstasy.
Freedom from the player's handbook is largely just a dispel magic that hits everything that Freedom of Movement already stops, plus one 9th level spell. (Also, using the 9th level spell technically doesn't work because of how targeting works, but that's neither here nor there.)
Actually, while on the subject, does Invoke Magic work? Scholars debate it to this day. It's a spell that you cast in places where you can't cast a spell with the effect of letting you cast another spell. So do I have to use Invoke Magic to be able to cast my Invoke Magic to be able to cast another spell? Who knows! How often are you encountering dead magic zones that you have this spell known or prepared? If the problem is an antimagic field, try wearing a wizard hat instead.
Khelben's Dweomerdoom lets you spend a swift action to make a dispel check against someone and, if you succeed, they lose one of their highest level spell slots/prepared spells at random. That's it. At least the 1000gp item is a focus and not a component!
Investiture of the Pit Fiend grants its target a fly speed of 60 (average) and fire resist for 1 minute per level. In addition, each round they can choose to have frightful presence, a standard action that deals strength damage in a burst (which hits you too), or four natural attacks that deal 2D6 damage. Anyway, I find it hilarious that this spell is the same level as Shapechange but with one tenth the duration. I mean, come on. it's worse than Polymorph.
Sanctify the Wicked requires a 10,000 GP focus and costs you a level every time you cast it. What you get is a really limited Mindrape or Programmed Amnesia except instead of being dispellable, it takes 1 year. And if it's interrupted, the target will seek you out and attempt to kill you. Did I mention you lose a level?
Edit: Mindrape is not dispellable; you need Miracle or Wish, or Break Enchantment if you change them too severely. And Programmed Amnesia is not dispellable either, although it's canceled in an AMF, but you can stop it with Wish, Miracle, or Greater Restoration.
Unname requires you to use truespeech. (I mean, it's a 9th level medium-range save or die with a skill check, a fort save, and SR before it works. But mainly it's the truenaming thing.) This spell does have the niche use of being able to kill artifacts if your target's holding them.


Actively Bad
I have a few candidates for 9th level spells that it is simply incorrect to ever cast.
End to Strife is a 9th level cleric/Apostle of Peace spell that forced all intelligent creatures within 80 feet of the caster take 20D6 damage any time they make an attack roll. "Oh," you might say. "What if somebody is attacking the caster with a longbow? What if somebody has a medium-range spell? What if somebody has a construct? What if somebody summons something?" To which I answer, good news! End to strife is not dismissable.

The best I can make of this spell is that an evil cleric can cast it before routing an army or a castle with their undead army, and that's a weird primary use case for a spell in the Book of Exalted Deeds. If you're engaging your enemy without you rolling attack rolls in the first place, then you probably should just prepare a 9th level no-save-just-lose spell instead of this. Oh, if and you're using this on level-appropriate encounters, it's both [Mind-Affecting] and stopped by spell resistance.

Mycontil's Last Resolt lets you spend a 9th level spell and a standard action in order to spend all of your remaining spells. All creatures within 10, 20, and 30 feet of you take 8, 6, or 4 damage per spell slot remaining, regardless of level. Ref half, SR yes. You take the maximum damage with no save or SR. If you really want to deal a lot of damage to people in a 30 foot burst, surely there is a better way that doesn't deal as much or more damage to you, and removes every spell you have at the same time? It's such a weird spell because you don't want to cast it at the start of an encounter because you'd probably try winning before killing yourself, but at the end of the encounter it's lost half its power. Why does it exist?

And finally, the granddaddy of all terrible spells, it's...
Transcend Mortality! This 9th level Wu-Jen only spell allows you to become much harder to damage or kill for 1 round/level, gaining DR, SR, energy resistance, immunity to many status effects (including ones like starvation and disease, which I find hilarious), and a +10 to saves. What happens when the spell ends? You are reduced to a fine pile of ash, no save. But don't worry: If you can't wait a full round per level, you can dismiss it early to put truths to those myths of spontaneous human combustion.

Have you learned, prepared, and cast Transcend Mortality? I've found three failure points in your plan.

Wildstag
2024-02-13, 11:20 PM
Actively Bad

I'd personally include PWK, because honestly if someone (either enemy or ally) is wasting a 9th-level slot on an Enchantment (Compulsion)[Death, Mind-Affecting] spell, I'd be personally offended. It hits Spell Resistance all the same as End to Strife, but with significantly lower potential damage output, single target, AND has close range (shorter than EtS' emanation).

It doesn't (potentially) hinder allies in the same way End to Strife (potentially) does, but the emanation from EtS can be manipulated such that an ally that makes attack rolls can do so from outside the effect but not an enemy. It's a spell for protecting the backlines while enabling the frontlines (if they exist) to do their thing.

Kurald Galain
2024-02-14, 04:39 AM
Some more suggestions,


Acid Splash. This spell actively encourages novice players to spend their turns pinging for 1d3 damage, instead of doing literally anything else. And that's just a horrible lesson for newbies, and potentially a big turnoff if they expect their character to be contributing.
Pyrotechnics. Yeah, it's a debuff spell that only works if you happen to have a bonfire nearby (how often does that even happen?), and then it hits your allies too. That should be a hard pass.
Stone Discus. It's a Pathfinder spell that duplicates Scorching Ray, except it tosses rocks instead of fire. Notably, that means that it targets regular AC instead of touch AC, which makes it pretty useless.
Interposing Hand. Much as I respect ol' Bigby, this fifth-level spell effectively gives you +4 to armor class against a single opponent, where the first-level Shield spell does the same against each opponent.
Telekinesis. For moving objects, this is upstaged by the lower-level Floating Disc, as well as by the martials in your party. For damage, this is just really bad for its level.
Wall of Iron. It's a wall that falls over for damage, in a random direction. As damaging spells go, plain ol' Fireball does it better. As walls go, you'll want one that doesn't tip over at random. Why does this exist again?
Forceful Hand. Hey, did you know what keeps enemies away from you without a roll? Yep, it's those wall spells again!


$.02!

Inevitability
2024-02-14, 04:59 AM
Some more suggestions,


Acid Splash. This spell actively encourages novice players to spend their turns pinging for 1d3 damage, instead of doing literally anything else. And that's just a horrible lesson for newbies, and potentially a big turnoff if they expect their character to be contributing.
Pyrotechnics. Yeah, it's a debuff spell that only works if you happen to have a bonfire nearby (how often does that even happen?), and then it hits your allies too. That should be a hard pass.
Stone Discus. It's a Pathfinder spell that duplicates Scorching Ray, except it tosses rocks instead of fire. Notably, that means that it targets regular AC instead of touch AC, which makes it pretty useless.
Interposing Hand. Much as I respect ol' Bigby, this fifth-level spell effectively gives you +4 to armor class against a single opponent, where the first-level Shield spell does the same against each opponent.
Telekinesis. For moving objects, this is upstaged by the lower-level Floating Disc, as well as by the martials in your party. For damage, this is just really bad for its level.
Wall of Iron. It's a wall that falls over for damage, in a random direction. As damaging spells go, plain ol' Fireball does it better. As walls go, you'll want one that doesn't tip over at random. Why does this exist again?
Forceful Hand. Hey, did you know what keeps enemies away from you without a roll? Yep, it's those wall spells again!


$.02!

A lot of these are only bad in the default use case, and I'd hesitate to put them on this list. Acid Splash is a great vehicle for precision damage that comes in really cheap wands; Pyrotechnics can work off of a torch or even a matchstick and there's ways of making yourself/your allies immune (assuming your DM doesn't let everyone close their eyes for a round a la gaze attacks). Telekinesis notoriously lets you make 15 attacks with large greatswords in a single round: that's 45d6 damage to be split as you please, no save no sr.

As for Wall of Iron, even if you want to mischaracterize it as the tipping being inherent rather than an option you get to ignore: it's the easiest and cleanest way to break the core D&D economy! How's that not useful?

Elenian
2024-02-14, 01:29 PM
Abate Dracorage gets my vote, because the lexicographically first spell should be something cool instead of this rubbish.

Chronos
2024-02-14, 04:36 PM
Yeah, agree with Inevitability that all of those spells have perfectly good use cases. But if you insist on naming one of the damaging cantrips, Ray of Frost is definitely worse than Acid Splash: It allows SR, and cold is a more often resisted damage type than acid. Though, with as cheap as cantrip wands are, a rogue is probably going to carry both, just in case they meet something with cold vulnerability.

And Telekinesis can be used to move (or immobilize) creatures, not just to damage them directly. And also note that the combat maneuver option doesn't allow for a save.

Inevitability
2024-02-14, 05:09 PM
Magic of Faerun's Spider Poison is a 3rd-level sorc/wiz spell that deals... 1d6 strength damage! On a melee touch attack! It's so insanely outclassed by Ray of Enfeeblement or Lesser Shivering Touch (1st-level spells!) that it's not even funny.

There's just so many contradictions in the spell: do you want to very slightly hamper the enemy melee brute (the only kind of foe who really cares about dropped strength)? Then march your d4 hit die full caster over, hope he's not immune to poison, pray you overcome his high Fortitude save, and make him slightly weaker when he full attacks you next turn.


Phantom Trap is another real stinker: spend 50 GP so anybody trying to steal your stuff... wastes a few minutes before realizing nothing's there? It's so blatantly a 'screw with the party' spell that they forgot to give it an actual use case.

AvatarVecna
2024-02-14, 05:43 PM
Awhile back I made a thread titled Retribution Magic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596919-Retribution-Magic) that was an attempt to gather together every spell in the game that worked somewhat like fire shield - that is to say, while the spell is up, if someone hits you, they take damage, without you having to spend any actions on the "deal damage" part. Individually, I think most of these spells are garbage by default; casters tend to be squishier than the people hitting them, and the retributive spells on this list tend to not hit as hard as the monsters that might be triggering them. You can mitigate that downside if you're basically immune to whatever damage the monster is doing, but if that's the case there's probably plenty of strategies for defeating them anyway. There's also a niche use-case where you stack up a bunch of these on the same person, and then anybody who hits you for one attack's worth of damage gets hit with 20 attacks worth of damage and a half-dozen conditions. That helps make up for the downsides where you win by deliberately letting the enemy hit you. But outside something like that, most of these spells suck pretty hard.

I'm not sure if most of them belong on this list, but there's one in particular I think belongs: Ectoplasmic Empowerment is a lvl 3 Sor/Wiz spell, lasts for 1 min/CL, and deals 1d6+CL (max +10) force damage to somebody that hits you with an incorporeal touch attack. SR applies to this damage.

The first and most obvious problem is, this is an incredibly niche spell. It doesn't apply to most touch attacks. It doesn't apply to non-touch attacks from incorporeal targets. Picking this as a spell prepared for a wizard is something you do when you're gonna be wading into an army of ghosts (uncommon situation) and you know that ahead of time (incorporeal enemies tend to be used as surprise "horror" monsters, so at least IME you're generally less warned than usual). Picking this as a spell known for sorcerer is insane.

The second and also obvious problem is, the damage is pitiful. Force damage is at least very rarely resisted, but 1d6+(5-10) just isn't that much damage. Combine that with how SR can cause it to fail entirely, and you're not even guaranteed to be trading hits; it might just be they hit you, and your spell whiffs the SR check.

The third and less obvious problem is that most incorporeal touch attacks really suck to get hit by. Ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, "turns you to spawn on kill". Casting a spell that maybe works a little bit if you let yourself get hit by some of the nastiest effects in the game...it's not a great strategy.

EDIT: One that's probably hugely a matter of opinion/experience, but IMO/IME Soul Bind is garbage. You're gonna spend a lvl 9 slot and a small fortune on an attempt to further inconvenience someone you've already killed, which has three points of failure (Will negates, gem too small, can be dispelled). Oh, and this only works in the immediate aftermath of their death, so it's not just someone you killed, it's a chump you killed while keeping a 9th lvl slot in reserve. Just destroy the corpse, that takes out most rez magic opportunities anyway. If your DM is in the habit of true rezzing villains you've already proven you can beat like red-headed step-children with one hand tied behind your back, then I guess this has a use-case. But that doesn't align with my experience.

FauxKnee
2024-02-14, 09:48 PM
I don't know that it's truly the worst of the worst, but protection from winged flyers (Shining South) is a waste of ink and paper. Sure, it still defeats mind control like protection from evil/good/law/chaos but how often are you going to bother preparing a level 1 spell that specifically gives you a defensive boost against a really narrow niche (creatures with non-magical flight) instead of against a broad swathe (pick an alignment) ?

While it has the advantage of lacking an alignment descriptor when compared to the other four, even clerics with their alignment restriction only require that the effect not be opposed to their deity, rather than insisting it's aligned. (At least one of the four protection from alignment spells is going to be castable.)

MaxiDuRaritry
2024-02-14, 11:14 PM
Every psionic manifesting class that's ever been written is a spontaneous caster in a similar vein to the sorcerer, although most classes have even fewer powers known. That means that every psionic power needs to be flexible and usable fairly regularly, else it's a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately, many powers are written as though they're spells on the wizard list: niche case uses at best. At least a wizard/sorcerer spell occasionally comes in handy due to how wizards can change things up every day and don't have to spend permanent resources (a very limited spell known) to learn them. That, and augmentation exists for psionic powers, so all powers should be designed to be used for the entirety of a campaign. 1 die of [Fire] damage per round of concentration after the 1st with no way to boost it (I'm looking at you, matter agitation) is NOT acceptable.

Astral traveler, bolt, call to mind, catfall, conceal thoughts, control flames, control light, daze (psionic), demoralize, distract, ecto protection, empty mind, float, know direction and location, matter agitation, and missive, and that's only for the 1st level psion/wilder powers in the XPH. CPsi and Hyperconscious are, overall, significantly worse.

I'm sure someone can come up with the occasional use for one of the above, but enough to actually take as a power known when you only have 1/2 levels (wilder), 1/level (psywar) or 2/level (psion) with vastly better powers available to take instead?

Most of those used to be 0 level powers back in 3.0, but they were weak even then. Now they're a waste of a 1st level power known.

Troacctid
2024-02-14, 11:39 PM
I don't know that it's truly the worst of the worst, but protection from winged flyers (Shining South) is a waste of ink and paper. Sure, it still defeats mind control like protection from evil/good/law/chaos but how often are you going to bother preparing a level 1 spell that specifically gives you a defensive boost against a really narrow niche (creatures with non-magical flight) instead of against a broad swathe (pick an alignment) ?

While it has the advantage of lacking an alignment descriptor when compared to the other four, even clerics with their alignment restriction only require that the effect not be opposed to their deity, rather than insisting it's aligned. (At least one of the four protection from alignment spells is going to be castable.)
The main advantage is that it's on the druid list, where druids don't normally have access to protection from evil. But honestly, even for wizards, I feel like it still beats protection from good, which has to be an even narrower niche. How often do you fight good guys? Not very often.

MaxiDuRaritry
2024-02-14, 11:50 PM
The main advantage is that it's on the druid list, where druids don't normally have access to protection from evil. But honestly, even for wizards, I feel like it still beats protection from good, which has to be an even narrower niche. How often do you fight good guys? Not very often.Note that the protection from [alignment] spells and anything based on them still protect you from charms, compulsions, and any attempts at possession regardless of alignment. This extends to protection from winged flyers, as well.

Inevitability
2024-02-15, 02:56 AM
Eh, PFWF isn't as good as Protection from Evil, but it seems like a solid middle-of-the-pack Protection variant. Slap on your favorite means of magical flight and you have a pretty comprehensive defense going - and unlike Protection from Evil this one also works against, say, a druid summoning hippogriffs at you.

Kurald Galain
2024-02-15, 03:52 AM
A lot of these are only bad in the default use case, and I'd hesitate to put them on this list. Acid Splash is a great vehicle for precision damage that comes in really cheap wands; Pyrotechnics can work off of a torch or even a matchstick and there's ways of making yourself/your allies immune (assuming your DM doesn't let everyone close their eyes for a round a la gaze attacks). Telekinesis notoriously lets you make 15 attacks with large greatswords in a single round: that's 45d6 damage to be split as you please, no save no sr.
I'll admit that TK may be better than I thought. On the other hand, I don't think that a rogue would be likely to give up his full attack (including ITWF and Haste) for a single UMD'ed wand.
And, does any party actually carry torches given that various Light spells exist? After all, torches still take up a hand which can be better used for almost anything else. It seems to me that a blinding spell that requires you to hold a torch (and that allows for SR) is clearly inferior to the equal-level Glitterdust.

And to the best of my knowledge, anything that "breaks the economy" (such as Wall of Iron) is strictly theory op and highly unlikely to be allowed in actual gameplay, so I think we can discount that.

Inevitability
2024-02-15, 04:19 AM
I'll admit that TK may be better than I thought. On the other hand, I don't think that a rogue would be likely to give up his full attack (including ITWF and Haste) for a single UMD'ed wand.
And, does any party actually carry torches given that various Light spells exist? After all, torches still take up a hand which can be better used for almost anything else. It seems to me that a blinding spell that requires you to hold a torch (and that allows for SR) is clearly inferior to the equal-level Glitterdust.

And to the best of my knowledge, anything that "breaks the economy" (such as Wall of Iron) is strictly theory op and highly unlikely to be allowed in actual gameplay, so I think we can discount that.

1. Well, if we're using melee TWF rogues as the point of comparison, those need some way to move and full attack, don't they? That's not always doable, and a touch spell from a wand chamber is a better use of a standard action than a single weapon strike, especially against high-AC-low-touch foes. And as for ranged rogues, those commonly enough get forced into a snipe/hide routine that only permits a single attack per turn anyway, so you really don't lose anything by switching to wands.

2. Torches are also standard dungeon illumination - and it's not like a bard or wizard needs their off-hand that badly. Actually, re-reading the spell it explicitly uses (but doesn't consume) 'magical fire sources', so maybe providing the component is as simple as casting a Continual Flame on your hat. At any rate you can just light a matchstick before combat and give it to Eight-Ball The Raven Familiar to hold.

3. Alright, the DM probably won't let you become an old iron salesman and buy everything you ever wanted, but like, Fabricate is one spell level beneath Wall of Iron, craft checks exist, Wall of Iron is a very clean source of raw materials that a caster of that level shouldn't struggle to put to use.

Kurald Galain
2024-02-15, 05:20 AM
1. Well, if we're using melee TWF rogues as the point of comparison, those need some way to move and full attack, don't they? That's not always doable, and a touch spell from a wand chamber is a better use of a standard action than a single weapon strike, especially against high-AC-low-touch foes.
I had forgotten about wand chambers (because I haven't met any DMs that use that book). Sure, with a wand chamber it's a sizeable to-hit bonus for cheap. Without one, this is simply not practical.


And as for ranged rogues, those commonly enough get forced into a snipe/hide routine that only permits a single attack per turn anyway, so you really don't lose anything by switching to wands.
I thought the go-to tactic for ranged rogues was to use Blink or Greater Invis to get sneak damage on their full attacks? Snipe/hide and one attack per turn doesn't sound like an effective character to me.


At any rate you can just light a matchstick before combat and give it to Eight-Ball The Raven Familiar to hold.
Sure, but that's kind of my point. The spell has an unusual restriction (of needing a fire source), and you can do all kinds of things to work around that, but after accounting for those complications the spell is still inferior to Glitterdust.


Wall of Iron is a very clean source of raw materials that a caster of that level shouldn't struggle to put to use.
It's a nice combo in theory, but I still struggle to think of a practical usage that isn't more easily covered by the lower-level Major Creation. Unless there's a shortcut here to magical item creation that I'm overlooking, of course.

Inevitability
2024-02-15, 05:45 AM
I had forgotten about wand chambers (because I haven't met any DMs that use that book). Sure, with a wand chamber it's a sizeable to-hit bonus for cheap. Without one, this is simply not practical.


I thought the go-to tactic for ranged rogues was to use Blink or Greater Invis to get sneak damage on their full attacks? Snipe/hide and one attack per turn doesn't sound like an effective character to me.


Sure, but that's kind of my point. The spell has an unusual restriction (of needing a fire source), and you can do all kinds of things to work around that, but after accounting for those complications the spell is still inferior to Glitterdust.


It's a nice combo in theory, but I still struggle to think of a practical usage that isn't more easily covered by the lower-level Major Creation. Unless there's a shortcut here to magical item creation that I'm overlooking, of course.

Fair point on ranged rogue strats and glitterdust (though 'worse than one of the best spells at that level' does not mean 'worst'), but Major Creation has the kinda big drawback of all conjured iron disappearing after 1 hour/level. Even in situations where you only need the created item for a few hours, Wall of Iron doesn't force you to prepare and cast the material-creation spell on the same day as the crafting one.

Anthrowhale
2024-02-15, 07:05 AM
Amusingly, TK is in the top 10 list for level 5 that we worked on. There, the thinking was:

This is a broad utility spell for moving and/or attacking without actually being there. At one extreme you might violent thrust 15 Shalantha's Delicate Disk's and followup with a fireball to set them all off simultaneously. As another you might just want to extract the mcguffin you see from the trap filled room without actually going in there (or touching it).

Edit:


Sublime Revelry cures a small number of lingering effects an then makes its targets (1/level within 30 feet) take half attack damage and get mind blanked for 1 minute per level. I could maybe see some niche situations where this could come up but why would a 17th level cleric prepare this? Also, if you really want the effect, the spell is a sidegrade, not upgrade but sidegrade, to the 7th level spell Empyreal Ecstasy.

The good thing about Sublime Revelry is that it combos with Empyreal Ecstasy to provide complete immunity to melee and ranged damage since -50% + -50% = -100% (according to D&D math for abstract units). Not a good 9th level effect, but potentially handy in some circumstances.



End to Strife is a 9th level cleric/Apostle of Peace spell that forced all intelligent creatures within 80 feet of the caster take 20D6 damage any time they make an attack roll. "Oh," you might say. "What if somebody is attacking the caster with a longbow? What if somebody has a medium-range spell? What if somebody has a construct? What if somebody summons something?" To which I answer, good news! End to strife is not dismissable.

The best I can make of this spell is that an evil cleric can cast it before routing an army or a castle with their undead army, and that's a weird primary use case for a spell in the Book of Exalted Deeds. If you're engaging your enemy without you rolling attack rolls in the first place, then you probably should just prepare a 9th level no-save-just-lose spell instead of this. Oh, if and you're using this on level-appropriate encounters, it's both [Mind-Affecting] and stopped by spell resistance.

End to Strife is metamagic redeemable. For example, Persistent Maximized Purified End to Strife in an invasion of the Abyss scenario is reasonably useful.

Troacctid
2024-02-15, 11:12 AM
Pyrotechnics is a nice versatile option because it's two spells in one: a weaker version of Flashburst, or a weaker version of Stinking Cloud. You just have to set it up by casting a fire spell first sometimes.

ciopo
2024-02-15, 11:55 AM
Pathfinder: the stark contrast of command plants and control plants always amuses me when it crosses my awareness

Harrow
2024-02-15, 10:08 PM
I haven't actually been in any play high enough level to use it, but M's Disjunction has always struck me as a dubious use of resources at best. It can be used to destroy artifacts? Neat, but, first of all, you probably shouldn't be doing that (for plot reasons). Also, you're almost guaranteed to get a deity-level being personally interested in you, if you roll a "1" on the Will save you lose all spellcasting, and it only has a caster level % chance of even working. What about its more general use-case, as super-dispel? Well, on the drawbacks side, it destroys magic items. Sunder isn't any better when a Wizard can do it (even if they are better at it). Also, it's a 40 ft radius burst. I can't imagine what a dungeon would look like with 9th level spells being thrown around, but it makes targeting a pain even in an open field after the enemy side has closed with yours. Deleting a handful of +3 weapons and cloaks of resistance off of enemies is annoying, but taking out your own team's magic items is unforgivable. There's also the meta drawback of the Gentleman's Agreement. Using M's Disjunction against npcs is giving implicit permission for it to be used against you.

For anyone with experience with the early pokemon games, M's Disjunction is a lot like geodude/graveler or zubat/golbat. The first has high defensive capability and can be found in the wild with a move that knocks itself out, but almost assuredly does the same to your pokemon. The latter two have really high speed and moves that poison or confuse. Your pokemon are basically always outnumbered (many wild fights and/or trainer battles between you and the next boss fight, or the Elite 4 which is just a boss rush) so trading 1-for-1 is almost never in your favor, while poison doesn't affect npcs out of combat and confusion isn't reliable. All this to say they're very effective tools to be used against the player, but lose most of their "oomph" when used by the player.

But, all of those many, horrible drawbacks must be worth it, right? What else even competes for dispelling? Well, there's Chain Dispel. That's targeted Dispel Magic, targeting a creature per level (so you don't have to worry about friendly fire) and it caps out at a +25 boost from caster level. That means, even at 20th level, you're still benefiting from caster level boosts. And it's only an 8th level spell!

Beni-Kujaku
2024-02-16, 03:54 AM
I haven't actually been in any play high enough level to use it, but M's Disjunction has always struck me as a dubious use of resources at best. It can be used to destroy artifacts? Neat, but, first of all, you probably shouldn't be doing that (for plot reasons). Also, you're almost guaranteed to get a deity-level being personally interested in you, if you roll a "1" on the Will save you lose all spellcasting, and it only has a caster level % chance of even working. What about its more general use-case, as super-dispel? Well, on the drawbacks side, it destroys magic items. Sunder isn't any better when a Wizard can do it (even if they are better at it). Also, it's a 40 ft radius burst. I can't imagine what a dungeon would look like with 9th level spells being thrown around, but it makes targeting a pain even in an open field after the enemy side has closed with yours. Deleting a handful of +3 weapons and cloaks of resistance off of enemies is annoying, but taking out your own team's magic items is unforgivable. There's also the meta drawback of the Gentleman's Agreement. Using M's Disjunction against npcs is giving implicit permission for it to be used against you.

You don't throw Disjunctions around. A Disjunction is a spell so completely broken, so devoid of restrictions, that it should exclusively be used in the final fight of a campaign, when nothing else matters.

Either it's used by the BBEG as its sole action for the first round, and it's a great way to show how powerful they can be if they can remove every buff and destroy about half of their magic items in one go. Or it's used by the PCs when they really don't care how many items they destroy, the point is to beat the person in front of them to prevent them from threatening the world, not to loot their body afterwards. Also, you're a level 17 wizard, if you don't have a way to fly so that your Disjunction does not affect your friends, you're doing it wrong.

You cannot say an atom bomb is one of the worst weapons ever created because when you use it it spells total destruction for one side or another and you cannot use their facilities afterwards. The atom bomb is one of the most powerful weapons ever created because it can destroy everything (and we all hope it is never used for that reason). Disjunction is one of the most powerful spells in the game because it dispels everything and destroys magic items (and we all hope it is never used against us for that reason).

Oh, yeah, and Chain Dispel. You know what Chain Dispel requires that Disjunction doesn't? Rolling. If I'm using my uberpowerful dispel spell, I don't want to have a 25% chance of not dispelling a CL20 spell despite all my CL boosters. I don't want to have a 5% chance of not dispelling any single one of the BBEG's spells. I want everything dispelled. I want this spell to win on the spot. No save, no SR. Just pure magical dispelling that still allows me to use my spells afterwards. I want those dweomer disjoined, period.

AvatarVecna
2024-02-16, 04:28 AM
I played in an epic gestalt game for a couple months. Epic spells were allowed as long as we weren't cheering around the costs. But the epic settlement we were in had a standing policy against using Disjunction, enforced through the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction. Items and permabuffs make tye difference between standing a chance and getting stomped. If you demonstrate you're willing to be that ruthless and strip things away in a small squabble, it makes every other epic person in the city worriedbthey might he next. That's how you get a dozen archmages from every corner of the alignment pool lining up to disjunction your ****.

It's not one of the weakest spells.

MornShine
2024-02-16, 04:49 AM
Mutually Assured Destruction, in-character, never did anyone any good— the resource cost of always having Destruction on tap to Assure is irksome.

I'd like to submit Heart Ripper (the Complete Arcane version) as perhaps the most terrible forth-level spell.

On the upside, it's a multi-target save-or-die and it's extremely metal.

On the downside, it's Fortitude Negates and SR: Yes, and it only works on creatures with a heart. And fewer than 4 HD. And total HD of all targets up to CL.

If you want to kill a large horde of mooks, there's Fireball for that.

If you want to kill one or two minions (with HD at least three lower than your CL, may I say), there's Fireball for that.

If you want to mildly inconvenience the miniboss, there's Fireball for that.

If you want to pick off minions interspersed with your allies, there's Lightning Bolt for that. Or even Magic Missile.

It's also Assassin 4, which requires Character Level 12; or a Wu Jen 4, which requires you to play a Wu Jen instead of a Wizard.

(The Spell Compendium version is substantially different— single-target, save-or-die for HD < CL, significant stunlock otherwise... but the same have-a-heart requirement. Oh, and now it's not on the Wu Jen list, so even with Practiced Spellcaster you can at best take out one creature that's weaker than you are. With your highest-level spell.)

Inevitability
2024-02-16, 05:35 AM
It's also Assassin 4, which requires Character Level 12; or a Wu Jen 4, which requires you to play a Wu Jen instead of a Wizard.

(The Spell Compendium version is substantially different— single-target, save-or-die for HD < CL, significant stunlock otherwise... but the same have-a-heart requirement. Oh, and now it's not on the Wu Jen list, so even with Practiced Spellcaster you can at best take out one creature that's weaker than you are. With your highest-level spell.)

I don't actually think the assumption that it got removed from the Wu Jen list is correct - rather, it seems to me to flow naturally from the way 3.5 updates work that Wu Jen can access the updated spell, and in fact only the updated spell.

We all agree that spells can be on a class list if the class mentions it but the spell description doesn't, right? Blackguards can cast Cure Light Wounds even if the PHB entry for CLW does not mention blackguards.

(And on the flip side, we all agree that Fengut (https://web.archive.org/web/20031216075826/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a) is on the wizard list - our sole source is the spell description itself, but that's enough.)

So a spell is on a class list if either the spell or the list's first printing mentions that. And it is plain that the (unupdated) Wu Jen list mentions Heart Ripper, making the fact that the spell no longer does irrelevant. Sure, the words 'Heart Ripper' now refer to an updated spell, but that doesn't change that whatever-is-the-most-recent-printing-of-Heart-Ripper gets referenced directly in the Wu Jen entry.

InvisibleBison
2024-02-16, 08:31 AM
I played in an epic gestalt game for a couple months. Epic spells were allowed as long as we weren't cheering around the costs. But the epic settlement we were in had a standing policy against using Disjunction, enforced through the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction. Items and permabuffs make tye difference between standing a chance and getting stomped. If you demonstrate you're willing to be that ruthless and strip things away in a small squabble, it makes every other epic person in the city worriedbthey might he next. That's how you get a dozen archmages from every corner of the alignment pool lining up to disjunction your ****.

It's not one of the weakest spells.

This thread isn't about the weakest spells, though. It's about the worst spells, which is a much more nebulous category. I think it's reasonable for a spell you can only use under extremely limited circumstances to be considered among the worst spells.


I'm also surprised no one has mentioned ability rip yet. It lets you temporarily remove a supernatural ability from one creature and give it to another - at the cost of the recipient permanently losing one of their own supernatural abilities, or two levels if they don't have any. The cost is so ridiculously high that it basically only is usable as a way to remove bad supernatural abilities that you don't want to have.

Anthrowhale
2024-02-16, 09:57 AM
Disjunction used inside a Time Stop can strip spells without destroying loot since Time Stop makes the possessed items invulnerable while leaving existing spells vulnerable. It's somewhat expensive to use this way since you need 2 9th level spells, but the downside removal often makes this a 1/day tactic rather than a 1/campaign tactic.

Complement with Chain Spell Greater Dispel Magic not in a Time Stop to suppress(but not destroy) most items as well, since items are typically made with a minimal caster level.

Wildstag
2024-02-16, 12:48 PM
Magic of Faerun's Spider Poison is a 3rd-level sorc/wiz spell that deals... 1d6 strength damage! On a melee touch attack! It's so insanely outclassed by Ray of Enfeeblement or Lesser Shivering Touch (1st-level spells!) that it's not even funny.

Ah, but there is one advantage to it: Unlike Ray of Enfeeblement, it can actually drop a creature to 0 Strength.

Inevitability
2024-02-16, 01:16 PM
Ah, but there is one advantage to it: Unlike Ray of Enfeeblement, it can actually drop a creature to 0 Strength.

...and it even has a 50% chance of actually doing so if used against a 4 strength creature! Owl familiars, tremble in fear!

In all seriousness, at that point just go with Shadow Spray (2nd-level, ranged AoE instead of touch attack, dazes, less RNG, not poison), which isn't even that good of a spell.

Metastachydium
2024-02-16, 03:02 PM
dazes

That's never the worst thing!

Inevitability
2024-02-16, 03:03 PM
That's never the worst thing!

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply Shadow Spray was bad, just that it was a solid spell that compares ridiculously well to Spider Poison.

icefractal
2024-02-16, 03:10 PM
But, all of those many, horrible drawbacks must be worth it, right? What else even competes for dispelling? Well, there's Chain Dispel. That's targeted Dispel Magic, targeting a creature per level (so you don't have to worry about friendly fire) and it caps out at a +25 boost from caster level. That means, even at 20th level, you're still benefiting from caster level boosts. And it's only an 8th level spell!I think this is one that varies based on optimization level. The last time I was in a really high-power campaign (20th level, fairly optimized within certain limits), my normal "in the field" CL was 24, entirely dispel-able with +25. But my ritual / prepared CL was 44 - 56, depending how much resources I wanted to put into it (and could have been even higher if things like Consumptive Field were on the table). Nobody was dispelling those buffs with anything less than a Disjunction.

So I'd say that in the fairly rare high-power high-op campaign, Disjunction is a major equalizer, without which buff-mancy just facerolls everything else. In the same way that without Wish ignoring dimensional protections, high-level casters could be truly invincible (even to each-other).

St Fan
2024-02-16, 06:57 PM
And finally, the granddaddy of all terrible spells, it's...
Transcend Mortality! This 9th level Wu-Jen only spell allows you to become much harder to damage or kill for 1 round/level, gaining DR, SR, energy resistance, immunity to many status effects (including ones like starvation and disease, which I find hilarious), and a +10 to saves. What happens when the spell ends? You are reduced to a fine pile of ash, no save. But don't worry: If you can't wait a full round per level, you can dismiss it early to put truths to those myths of spontaneous human combustion.

Have you learned, prepared, and cast Transcend Mortality? I've found three failure points in your plan.

Transcend mortality is actually usable if you've prepared a pact of return or death pact beforehand. Yeah, it's lots of preparation and probably requires a theurgist, so it doesn't necessarily makes the combo any good... but it's doable.

Anthrowhale
2024-02-16, 07:45 PM
Transcend mortality is actually usable if you've prepared a pact of return or death pact beforehand. Yeah, it's lots of preparation and probably requires a theurgist, so it doesn't necessarily makes the combo any good... but it's doable.

Pact of Return seems like the right choice there since Death Pact starts with "lose 2 constitution". You could always just use a ring of Spell Storing---no need to theurge. The issue with Transcend Mortality for me is that it's kind of marginal compared to alternate spells at lower levels or which you want anyways.

Damage reduction 30/epic. L9 Shapechange for effective DR 15/-.
Spell resistance equal to 21 + you caster level. L9 Shapechange into something with spell resistance + L6 Greater Spell Resistance (Dragon #304)
Acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic resistance 50. L6 Energy Immunity.
Immunity to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, and death effects. L4 Death Ward, L3 Amethyst Aura, L4 Sheltered Vitality.
+10 enhancement bonus on all saving throws. L1 Instant of Power for +4 enhancement bonus.
You do not need to eat, drink, or breathe. Shapechange or other form changing magic.

It's a reasonable defense if you only afford to dedicate one spell to defense, but there's nothing new here except some larger numbers for damage resistance and saves.

CactusAir
2024-02-17, 12:51 AM
I remember seeing some speculation that Jade Phoenix Mage (PrC) could be used to get around the death from Transcend Mortality.

Alternatively, Spellguard of Silverymoon (also a PrC) lets you use Transcend Mortality offensively to kill enemies.

Beni-Kujaku
2024-02-17, 02:28 AM
The issue with Transcend Mortality for me is that it's kind of marginal compared to alternate spells at lower levels or which you want anyways.

Damage reduction 30/epic. L9 Shapechange for effective DR 15/-.
You do not need to eat, drink, or breathe. Shapechange or other form changing magic.

It's a reasonable defense if you only afford to dedicate one spell to defense, but there's nothing new here except some larger numbers for damage resistance and saves.

Did you just say the benefits of a spell was bad because they can be replicated by Shapechange of all things? The spell so absolutely broken in every possible and conceivable way that WotC themselves errataed every single monster in the game to remove any mention of its lesser version and invented a whole new subschool of magic to replace it because there was absolutely no way to balance it in any meaningful way? If "you'd better cast Shapechange" makes you a contender for this list‚ then literally 99.9% of the spells (and 95% of the 9th level spells) in the game are the worst spells in the game. Neither Polymorph nor Shapechange should appear in that kind of conversation because they just make basically all spells redundant. (Hells‚ if Polymorph was level 9 and we didn't have D.Polymorph‚ T.Polymorph or Shapechange‚ people would still be using it and saying it's a pretty good spell.)

And even then Shapechange can hardly reproduce all the benefits of Transcend Mortality (insane SR without being a golem‚ DR30). It's a bit disingenuous to say that those benefits are marginal. They're really good‚ they're just not worth the hassle of preparing a contingent resurrection beforehand.

bekeleven
2024-02-17, 05:29 AM
I'm surprised nobody has yet brought up the power words from Races of the Dragon.

Most of the power words are reasonable enough in power level to dodge this list; they have no saving throw, after all. But there were two power outliers noticeable enough that players at the time speculated their levels were accidentally swapped. Did this happen? It's not likely, but it does feel like one should be at least one level higher, and the other at least one level lower.

Power Word Pain hits anybody with 100 HP or less that can't SR it. The target takes 1d6 instantly, and another 1d6 every following rounds, which can be from 1d4 to 4d4 depending on their stats. Pretty slow, all things consid... first level?! This thing competes with magic missile?

Meanwhile, power word distract makes its target... flat-footed until their next action. It can hit targets up to 150 HP, though, because it's fourth level. Imagine being a 7th level wizard and spending a standard action on this. Distract Assailant is a first level spell that, while it allows a saving throw, does the same thing as a swift action and it's not even particularly good. (Also it might last longer? The header indicates it does but the text does not.) Want to spend a standard action to get someone vulnerable? Cool, Grease is also first level. I know Grease is really good, but if they took the same resources, I'd hope most fourth-level battle debuff spells would be taken over it at least 1% of the time.

St Fan
2024-02-17, 07:23 AM
I remember seeing some speculation that Jade Phoenix Mage (PrC) could be used to get around the death from Transcend Mortality.


Oh yeah, that could do the trick too... if you time it correctly. You cannot die from transcend mortality if you're already dead.

Another open question is whether you can use death throes alongside transcend mortality to explode when you die instead of turning to dust...

Oh yeah, speaking of spells you wouldn't want to use without a pact of return... death throes (for clerics and wizards) or righteous aura (for paladins) rank fairly high. If you die, you go boom. Great, right? So indispensable... to make resurrection harder.

Mind you, once again those can be exploited with the proper combo. Especially in tandem with magic jar.

In fact, a lot of those "worse spells" already mentioned synergize very well with magic jar... like Tenser's transformation or, again, transcend mortality.

Anthrowhale
2024-02-17, 07:29 AM
Did you just say the benefits of a spell was bad because they can be replicated by Shapechange of all things? The spell so absolutely broken in every possible and conceivable way that WotC themselves errataed every single monster in the game to remove any mention of its lesser version and invented a whole new subschool of magic to replace it because there was absolutely no way to balance it in any meaningful way? If "you'd better cast Shapechange" makes you a contender for this list‚ then literally 99.9% of the spells (and 95% of the 9th level spells) in the game are the worst spells in the game. Neither Polymorph nor Shapechange should appear in that kind of conversation because they just make basically all spells redundant. (Hells‚ if Polymorph was level 9 and we didn't have D.Polymorph‚ T.Polymorph or Shapechange‚ people would still be using it and saying it's a pretty good spell.)

And even then Shapechange can hardly reproduce all the benefits of Transcend Mortality (insane SR without being a golem‚ DR30). It's a bit disingenuous to say that those benefits are marginal. They're really good‚ they're just not worth the hassle of preparing a contingent resurrection beforehand.

I'm not claiming that TM is necessarily a 'worst' spell, just that it's not anywhere near must have. If you want to avoid Shapechange, then replace the top one with L7 Statue or L8 Iron Body and the bottom one with Polymorph.