Best support classes?

[TheHalfAasimar]

So, I've been wanting to make a support character (I've played a Bard and a Monk before) and I want to play another support, because making sure no one else dies is more important than doing the murdering.
So here's what I know I do and don't want:
Druid - I just want Circle of Dreams, but I don't want anything else. Just that. I like it because: Wide spell variety, good support, prepare spells rather than a hard limit of spells known.
Wizard - I don't want a wizard. They can do a lot of things, but they just don't feel like support characters. So wizard's gone.
Sorceror - I like Divine Soul, but they don't get enough spells, but I'm willing to forego that because they can easily have the most spell slots.
Cleric - I would want either Life (to make sure no one dies) Light (to help do a bit of damage) and Forge (to buff things and people). I like the preparing spells.
Paladin - Don't like the flavor of Paladin. Something about them doesn't seem very 'supporty' to me. But I like Oath of Redemption.
Bard - I like how they have more spells, and can cast whatever they know, and the Magical Secrets feature helps a lot. And they're built for support! Unfortunately, they just don't have enough healing... and none of the subclasses appeal to me. I like Glamour. They're nice. They have good flavor. They are good support. I think.
Ranger - I like the flavor, especially Drakewarden, but they don't have enough support options.
Warlock - I like Archfey and Celestial, but well... neither of them are all that much of support.

So, any suggestions? I've narrowed it down to the following:
Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)
Divine Soul Sorceror (XgTE)
Celestial Warlock (XgTE)
Archfey Warlock (PHB)
Circle of Dreams Druid (XgTE)
Glamour Bard (XgTE)

As you can tell, I own the core books, Xanathar's, and Fizban's. Any good recommendations I'm forgetting? I'm also a little broke to by Tasha's or something else...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm playing a Forge Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X, high Str and expertise in athletics with shield master. We got a bonus feat at 1st so I went simic hybrid for the grappling tentacles. Even if you use your hands to grapple and wield a shield, there are plenty of spells that only have verbal components: Vicious Mockery, Healing Word, Command, Dissonant Whispers, Silvery Barbs, Blindness/Deafness, Mass Healing Word, etc. I used a customized Ravnica background to get more options for what spells I could pick.

I'll typically spend my action to attack and replace it with a grapple, then bonus action shove the grappled target prone. Between cutting words, silvery barbs, and enlarge/reduce when needed, I'll typically win all those checks. Once I've got two or three enemies grappled and prone, I'll start throwing spells around. If it's a big encounter I'll open up with a hypnotic pattern or similar before I start grappling.

Try taking a different approach on healing. You've got access to healing word and mass healing word for picking up downed party members. Aid can also pick up three downed characters as it adds 5 hp to each target. If someone did go down and needs to heal up, take a short rest and use song of rest, and also get proficiency in cook's utensils to further bonus that.

Enemies that are rendered ineffective won't be causing your party to need healing. Enemies that you grapple can't get away and are more likely to attack you, with your high AC and at disadvantage for being prone. Pick up party-protecting spells with magical secrets, such as counterspell and sleet storm and web, or the versatile damage-sponge conjure animals. There are ways to get those outside of magical secrets, such as a Ravnica background or a mark of handling human. This is why I'll typically go college of lore over the others, even though eloquence has better features. Keep in mind that you can flavor anything any way you want to. You could flavor and play it the same regardless of which school you pick.

In hindsight, using order instead of forge would have been more optimal, especially if there's a rogue in the party. In any case, I've played a build like this twice now and the support I've provided has made otherwise difficult fights rather easy. I even once grappled and shoved prone a dragon just before it would have tried to flee, allowing us to kill it.

[J-H]

Life cleric is good.
Have you considered Artificer?

[Urbanmech]

Celestial Warlocks make fantastic support characters. Take Pact of the Tome and you can also be the all purpose ritual caster in the group.

Glamour Bard is also fantastic support. Don’t over look the support offered by their Mantel of Inspiration ability. At 3rd level that’s 45 temp hp per long rest. At 5th level it goes up to 32 temp hp per short rest. That isn’t including the potential tactical advantage of a reaction based move. Glamour bard can definitely keep a party on their feet.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Life cleric is good.
Have you considered Artificer?

Actually, I don't own Tasha's, so no. I own XgtE, the core books, the Tome of Beasts III (kobold press) and Fizban's Treasury of Dragons.


Celestial Warlocks make fantastic support characters. Take Pact of the Tome and you can also be the all purpose ritual caster in the group.

Glamour Bard is also fantastic support. Don’t over look the support offered by their Mantel of Inspiration ability. At 3rd level that’s 45 temp hp per long rest. At 5th level it goes up to 32 temp hp per short rest. That isn’t including the potential tactical advantage of a reaction based move. Glamour bard can definitely keep a party on their feet.

OH WOW!

I think I'll play a glamour bard! Thanks!

[meandean]

Keep in mind that healing is only useful if it actually keeps the person up. If a teammate has 5 HP left and they can be expected to take 20 HP of damage on their next turn, it's wasteful to heal them for 10 HP. You need to either heal them for at least 16, or just wait till they go down to 0 and then get them back up.

Thus, you want either ways to get people up from 0 HP in combat (healing word is the gold standard for this); ways to heal people for a lot of HP in combat (the heal spell is the gold standard here); or ways to heal people out of combat (easier to find, but also less important since it's not immediate danger of death, and because you can also use potions and Hit Dice at these times.)

So, not all healing is actually helpful, and support is more than just healing. A Paladin does qualify as support IMO, since many highly damaging effects are based on saving throws which you can help your teammates pass via bless and your aura, and Lay on Hands and aura of vitality are good out-of-combat healing. (Lay on Hands is even usable in combat, if you really have to.)

If you do mean "effective healing" rather than more general "support", a super-healer might look something like Druid 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5/Life Cleric 1*, then go Sorcerer rest of the way. Goodberries are already great out-of-combat healing, because before taking a long rest, you convert any unused spellslots into healing that's usable the next day. Then the Life Cleric's Disciple of Life ability adds 2 + spell level HP to each of the many, many goodberries you'll be making. The Extended Spell metamagic can extend the duration of spells like aid and death ward so that you can similarly roll them over into the next day**, and can extend aura of vitality so it heals twice as much out of combat (on top of the Disciple of Life bonus for that spell too). And of course, as a Divine Soul Sorcerer, you can take all standard Cleric healing spells. You should also be able to at some point pick up the Inspiring Leader feat, which is an easy way to grant a lot of temporary HP.

(There are a couple of things to clear with your DM regarding this build. Although Sage Advice has stated that goodberry qualifies for Disciple of Life, that's a controversial ruling. It's also been argued, although I think the argument is clearly incorrect, that Divine Souls can't take aura of vitality because it's an "Additional Cleric Spell" and not really on the Cleric list. I don't see anything in the text stating that, but just make sure.)


* An even more elegant version of this build uses the Eberron Mark of Hospitality halfling, which apparently is not available to OP.
** There are ways to "stack" death ward even beyond this. I won't go into them here because I don't think most DMs will appreciate them, even if they are RAW.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Keep in mind that healing is only useful if it actually keeps the person up. If a teammate has 5 HP left and they can be expected to take 20 HP of damage on their next turn, there's no point in healing them for 10 HP. You need to either heal them for at least 16, or just wait till they go down to 0 and then get them back up.

Thus, you want either ways to get people up from 0 HP in combat (healing word is the gold standard for this); ways to heal people for a lot of HP in combat (the heal spell is the gold standard here); or ways to heal people out of combat (easier to find, but also less important since potions and Hit Dice can also do this.)

A Paladin does qualify IMO, since many highly damaging effects are based on saving throws which you can help your teammates pass via bless and your aura, and Lay on Hands and aura of vitality are good out-of-combat healing. (Lay on Hands is even usable in combat, if you really have to.)

If you do mean "effective healing" rather than more general "support", a super-healer might look something like Druid 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5/Life Cleric 1*, then go Sorcerer rest of the way. Goodberries are already great out-of-combat healing, because before taking a long rest, you convert any unused spellslots into healing that's usable the next day. Then the Life Cleric's Disciple of Life ability adds 2 + spell level HP to each of the many, many goodberries you'll be making. The Extended Spell metamagic can extend the duration of spells like aid and death ward so that you can similarly roll them over into the next day, and can extend aura of vitality so it heals twice as much out of combat. And of course, as a Divine Soul Sorcerer, you can take all standard Cleric healing spells. You should also be able to at some point pick up the Inspiring Leader feat, which is an easy way to grant a lot of temporary HP.

(There are a couple of things to clear with your DM regarding this build. Although Sage Advice has stated that goodberry qualifies for Disciple of Life, that's a controversial ruling. It's also been argued, although I think the argument is clearly incorrect, that Divine Souls can't take aura of vitality because it's an "Additional Cleric Spell" and not really on the Cleric list. I don't see anything in the text stating that, but just make sure.)


* An even more elegant version of this build uses the Eberron Mark of Hospitality halfling, which apparently is not available to OP.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the advice! (Maybe I should have gotten Eberron: Rising from the Last War at Barnes and Nobles instead of the Tome of Beasts III)

[RogueJK]

Cleric - I would want either Life (to make sure no one dies) Light (to help do a bit of damage) and Forge (to buff things and people). I like the preparing spells.

Any Cleric of any domain works well as a support caster. And a support-focused Cleric would benefit quite a bit from the Ritual Caster Wizard feat, for access to a ton of utility spellcasting.

Inspiring Leader is also a great support feat, if you can swing at least a 14ish CHA score.


Bard - I like how they have more spells, and can cast whatever they know, and the Magical Secrets feature helps a lot. And they're built for support! Unfortunately, they just don't have enough healing...

A single level of Life Cleric is a great way to boost a Bard's healing, plus it gets you armor and shield proficiency and access to additional 1st level non-Bard buffs like Bless and Protection from Evil. Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X makes for a fantastic support build, able to grab all of the best healing and support spells from the Cleric and Bard lists via either normal class access or Magical Secrets, plus boost all their healing spells with the Life domain ability.

Inspiring Leader works great with a Bard support build too, since you're already investing in CHA.

Life Cleric 1/Glamour Bard X could work similarly, just with a few less Magical Secrets options, and understanding that the Temp HP from Inspiring Leader won't stack with those from Mantle of Inspiration.


Warlock - I like Archfey and Celestial, but well... neither of them are all that much of support.

Celestial Tome Warlock is a solid support option. With the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, you have access to all of the ritual spells from any class. With the Gift of the Protectors invocation, you can prevent an ally from dropping to 0 HP. And the Celestial patron gets you access to Lesser/Greater Restoration and Revivify, plus a free pool of Bonus Action healing that's even better than Healing Word, as well as eventually frequent Temp HP similar to the Inspiring Leader feat. (Or you can double-dip to take Inspiring Leader too, to be able to generate twice as much Temp HP between rests.)

I played a Celestial Tomelock in a campaign where I was the only healer/support character, and it worked just fine.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

So, I've been wanting to make a support character (I've played a Bard and a Monk before) and I want to play another support, because making sure no one else dies is more important than doing the murdering.
So here's what I know I do and don't want:
Druid - I just want Circle of Dreams, but I don't want anything else. Just that. I like it because: Wide spell variety, good support, prepare spells rather than a hard limit of spells known.
Wizard - I don't want a wizard. They can do a lot of things, but they just don't feel like support characters. So wizard's gone.
Sorceror - I like Divine Soul, but they don't get enough spells, but I'm willing to forego that because they can easily have the most spell slots.
Cleric - I would want either Life (to make sure no one dies) Light (to help do a bit of damage) and Forge (to buff things and people). I like the preparing spells.
Paladin - Don't like the flavor of Paladin. Something about them doesn't seem very 'supporty' to me. But I like Oath of Redemption.
Bard - I like how they have more spells, and can cast whatever they know, and the Magical Secrets feature helps a lot. And they're built for support! Unfortunately, they just don't have enough healing... and none of the subclasses appeal to me. I like Glamour. They're nice. They have good flavor. They are good support. I think.
Ranger - I like the flavor, especially Drakewarden, but they don't have enough support options.
Warlock - I like Archfey and Celestial, but well... neither of them are all that much of support.

So, any suggestions? I've narrowed it down to the following:
Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)
Divine Soul Sorceror (XgTE)
Celestial Warlock (XgTE)
Archfey Warlock (PHB)
Circle of Dreams Druid (XgTE)
Glamour Bard (XgTE)

As you can tell, I own the core books, Xanathar's, and Fizban's. Any good recommendations I'm forgetting? I'm also a little broke to by Tasha's or something else...

Life Domain Cleric X / Mastermind Rogue 3 (or more)

Action: Help
Bonus Action: Help Action

You also get access to spells.

You also get access to Expertise, so, pick Athletics so you can shove people around better. A 12 or 14 Str would've more than enough for that.

You don't need high stats for this build so you can be stretch a bit thin. Take normal or variant human and get a 13 Cha and take Actor as a feat. Athletics comes from human


Background? Get deception and performance. Get disguise kit prof.

Keep disguises of your allies handy.

[LudicSavant]

OH WOW!

I think I'll play a glamour bard! Thanks!

Go for it, they're fantastic at their job.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Any Cleric of any domain works well as a support caster. And a support-focused Cleric would benefit quite a bit from the Ritual Caster Wizard feat, for access to a ton of utility spellcasting.

Inspiring Leader is also a great support feat, if you can swing at least a 14ish CHA score.



A single level of Life Cleric is a great way to boost a Bard's healing, plus it gets you armor and shield proficiency and access to additional 1st level non-Bard buffs like Bless and Protection from Evil. Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X makes for a fantastic support build, able to grab all of the best healing and support spells from the Cleric and Bard lists via either normal class access or Magical Secrets, plus boost all their healing spells with the Life domain ability.

Inspiring Leader works great with a Bard support build too, since you're already investing in CHA.

Life Cleric 1/Glamour Bard X could work similarly, just with a few less Magical Secrets options, and understanding that the Temp HP from Inspiring Leader won't stack with those from Mantle of Inspiration.



Celestial Tome Warlock is a solid support option. With the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, you have access to all of the ritual spells from any class. With the Gift of the Protectors invocation, you can prevent an ally from dropping to 0 HP. And the Celestial patron gets you access to Lesser/Greater Restoration and Revivify, plus a free pool of Bonus Action healing that's even better than Healing Word, as well as eventually frequent Temp HP similar to the Inspiring Leader feat. (Or you can double-dip to take Inspiring Leader too, to be able to generate twice as much Temp HP between rests.)

I played a Celestial Tomelock in a campaign where I was the only healer/support character, and it worked just fine.

Oh wow, I'll look at that! Thanks!


Life Domain Cleric X / Mastermind Rogue 3 (or more)

Action: Help
Bonus Action: Help Action

You also get access to spells.

You also get access to Expertise, so, pick Athletics so you can shove people around better. A 12 or 14 Str would've more than enough for that.

You don't need high stats for this build so you can be stretch a bit thin. Take normal or variant human and get a 13 Cha and take Actor as a feat. Athletics comes from human


Background? Get deception and performance. Get disguise kit prof.

Keep disguises of your allies handy.

Wow, that's pretty good! That's another kind of support from 'make sure no one dies' but it's pretty good! I'll look at that, too. Thanks!


Go for it, they're fantastic at their job.

About that... I was leafing through Xanathar's when I noticed the Grave Domain cleric was CRAZY at healing and keeping people from being dead, while College of Glamour is better at making everyone better at murdering things. So I'll consider that. Thanks!

[LudicSavant]

About that... I was leafing through Xanathar's when I noticed the Grave Domain cleric was CRAZY at healing and keeping people from being dead, while College of Glamour is better at making everyone better at murdering things. So I'll consider that. Thanks!

I think you might be overestimating Grave. It's a good deal worse at healing than Life Cleric. And if you want to see something that is truly worthy of being deemed 'crazy,' look at Peace and Twilight.

So, why isn't Grave all that impressive? Well, because...
- Its heal boost only activates if a PC is already at zero HP.
- Even when it does activate, all it does is maximize the dice. On what? Not Heal or Mass Heal or Goodberry; those don't roll dice. On Life Transference? Doesn't really work. On Healing Word? You'd have to upcast the Healing Word to a 5th level slot before maximize heals slightly more than the Life Cleric's 24/7 bonus -- 7.5 vs 7 extra healing. On Cure Wounds? Again you need to upcast more than you should in order to get even minor value, and you'll have to get within touch range of someone who just went down instead of using better spells for the job. On Aura of Vitality? You'd get +5 average healing on that yo-yo, while the Life Cleric will get +5 on every proc.

And I'm not even including the Life Cleric's level 6 ability in these comparisons!

The Life Cleric's healing boost applies constantly, in and out of combat, on any healing, including multi-round stuff (like Aura of Vitality and Regenerate) and multi-target healing spells (which are actually solid for them). Not to mention that Life Cleric can do bonus action spells in the same turn they use their Channel Divinity for yet more healing.

Ah but what about Grave's ability to negate crits? Well, it takes a Reaction can only happen Wis times a day, so even if the enemy is getting particularly lucky with the crits today, it's pretty capped in terms of how much punishment it can actually absorb in practice. For example, let's say we're fighting, oh, a CR24 Ancient Red Dragon. Even then, their crits are only doing like 7-11 extra damage. You can only absorb 5 of these, and over a course of 5 separate turns.

It's an alright ability but it doesn't really keep up with the support other Clerics can offer, IMHO. Certainly not the combos you can do with Life or the like.

[stoutstien]

About that... I was leafing through Xanathar's when I noticed the Grave Domain cleric was CRAZY at healing and keeping people from being dead, while College of Glamour is better at making everyone better at murdering things. So I'll consider that. Thanks!

There nothing *wrong* with the grave cleric but it's lacking IMO and missed the mark.

Spell list is okay but it's also very redundant to what the cleric gets anyway and unlike life domain they aren't spells you would have picked most days anyways. Blight id ok but also kinda a weird fit for the domain.

The circle of mortality looks great but it pales in comparison to life's raw healing and the bonus action spare the dying is odd. Maybe if your table doesn't attack downed targets it might be ok but why not just heal them?

Eye to grave is fun but undead behind cover For the ones you are worried about and since it doesn't give you any useful info it's kinda niche for finding undead that are concealed by darkness, fog, invisibility.

The channel can be useful if you have a few big swingers in the party who can take advantage of it but it has to be worth your own actions. If you have a death cleric in the party it's nasty.

Sentinel at deaths door is probably the best support option you have and seeing how clerics don't have a lot of reaction options it's a nice addition.

Potent is potent

Keeper of souls is weird seeing how it's based on enemies HD and that is really random sometimes and at most you might heal in the low 30s but the big enemy is down the allure of that healing is kinda too late to matter at this level. It's a "free action" at least.

*Ninjaed by Ludic again*

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Oh wow, I'll look at that! Thanks!



Wow, that's pretty good! That's another kind of support from 'make sure no one dies' but it's pretty good! I'll look at that, too. Thanks!



About that... I was leafing through Xanathar's when I noticed the Grave Domain cleric was CRAZY at healing and keeping people from being dead, while College of Glamour is better at making everyone better at murdering things. So I'll consider that. Thanks!

Fun fact, there's really not anything stopping you from shoving your allies (DM may still make them roll against you though). Forced Movement doesn't provoke.

Need to get the wizard out of harm's way?

Shove them.

Even with a +1 mod, your expertise will do the trick. Especially once you get Reliable Talent (+8 from prof alone, minimum roll is 10, so 19+).

Additionally, if you get a high enough str score (or magic item) you can just bonus action disengage, grapple an ally, and run off with them.

Yes, I've found this to be a lifesaver. I've also carried allies away while casting bonus action spells.

Dressing up like your allies can give you advantage (not mechanic tho maybe) as if you can break line of sight the enemy won't know which of you is which PC. Just uh, if you're a halfling you better have a great roll when trying to disguise yourself as your Goliath ally...

[da newt]

Twilight clerics are OP. Since you don't have Tashas, see below. BLUF: 300' darkvision, ADV on initiative, channel divinity persistent AOE temp hp or uncharm/unfrighten spam, flight. Crazy good.

Twilight Domain Spells
Cleric Level Spells
1st Faerie Fire, Sleep
3rd Moonbeam, See Invisibility
5th Aura of Vitality, Leomund's Tiny Hut
7th Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility
9th Circle of Power, Mislead

Bonus Proficiencies
At 1st level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor.

Eyes of Night
Starting at 1st level, you can see through the deepest gloom. You have darkvision out to a range of 300 feet. In that radius, you can see in dim light as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light.

As an action, you can magically share the darkvision of this feature with willing creatures you can see within 10 feet of you, up to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one creature). The shared darkvision lasts for 1 hour. Once you share it, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to share it again.

Vigilant Blessing
At 1st level, the night has taught you to be vigilant. As an action, you give one creature you touch (including possibly yourself) advantage on the next initiative roll the creature makes. This benefit ends immediately after the roll or if you use this feature again.

Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary
At 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:

You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

Steps of Night
Starting at 6th level, you can draw on the mystical power of night to rise into the air. As a bonus action when you are in dim light or darkness, you can magically give yourself a flying speed equal to your walking speed for 1 minute. You can use this bonus action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.






Also Nature Clerics are great and I've really enjoyed playing an Aasimar life cleric 1 / celestial warlock X w/ inspiring leader.

[LudicSavant]

So, any suggestions? I've narrowed it down to the following:
Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)
Divine Soul Sorceror (XgTE)
Celestial Warlock (XgTE)
Archfey Warlock (PHB)
Circle of Dreams Druid (XgTE)
Glamour Bard (XgTE)

As you can tell, I own the core books, Xanathar's, and Fizban's. Any good recommendations I'm forgetting? I'm also a little broke to by Tasha's or something else...

Those are all fine classes. Of the subclasses, I'd rate Light and Life above Forge, and Celestial above Archfey.

[TheHalfAasimar]

I think you might be overestimating Grave. It's a good deal worse at healing than Life Cleric. And if you want to see something that is truly worthy of being deemed 'crazy,' look at Peace and Twilight.

So, why isn't Grave all that impressive? Well, because...
- Its heal boost only activates if a PC is already at zero HP.
- Even when it does activate, all it does is maximize the dice. On what? Not Heal or Mass Heal or Goodberry; those don't roll dice. On Life Transference? Doesn't really work. On Healing Word? You'd have to upcast the Healing Word to a 5th level slot before maximize heals slightly more than the Life Cleric's 24/7 bonus -- 7.5 vs 7 extra healing. On Cure Wounds? Again you need to upcast more than you should in order to get even minor value, and you'll have to get within touch range of someone who just went down instead of using better spells for the job. On Aura of Vitality? You'd get +5 average healing on that yo-yo, while the Life Cleric will get +5 on every proc.

And I'm not even including the Life Cleric's level 6 ability in these comparisons!

The Life Cleric's healing boost applies constantly, in and out of combat, on any healing, including multi-round stuff (like Aura of Vitality and Regenerate) and multi-target healing spells (which are actually solid for them). Not to mention that Life Cleric can do bonus action spells in the same turn they use their Channel Divinity for yet more healing.

Ah but what about Grave's ability to negate crits? Well, it takes a Reaction can only happen Wis times a day, so even if the enemy is getting particularly lucky with the crits today, it's pretty capped in terms of how much punishment it can actually absorb in practice. For example, let's say we're fighting, oh, a CR24 Ancient Red Dragon. Even then, their crits are only doing like 7-11 extra damage. You can only absorb 5 of these, and over a course of 5 separate turns.

It's an alright ability but it doesn't really keep up with the support other Clerics can offer, IMHO. Certainly not the combos you can do with Life or the like.

Ahh, I see! Thanks for the advice!



There nothing *wrong* with the grave cleric but it's lacking IMO and missed the mark.

Spell list is okay but it's also very redundant to what the cleric gets anyway and unlike life domain they aren't spells you would have picked most days anyways. Blight id ok but also kinda a weird fit for the domain.

The circle of mortality looks great but it pales in comparison to life's raw healing and the bonus action spare the dying is odd. Maybe if your table doesn't attack downed targets it might be ok but why not just heal them?

Eye to grave is fun but undead behind cover For the ones you are worried about and since it doesn't give you any useful info it's kinda niche for finding undead that are concealed by darkness, fog, invisibility.

The channel can be useful if you have a few big swingers in the party who can take advantage of it but it has to be worth your own actions. If you have a death cleric in the party it's nasty.

Sentinel at deaths door is probably the best support option you have and seeing how clerics don't have a lot of reaction options it's a nice addition.

Potent is potent

Keeper of souls is weird seeing how it's based on enemies HD and that is really random sometimes and at most you might heal in the low 30s but the big enemy is down the allure of that healing is kinda too late to matter at this level. It's a "free action" at least.

*Ninjaed by Ludic again*

Hm... makes sense. Thanks!


Fun fact, there's really not anything stopping you from shoving your allies (DM may still make them roll against you though). Forced Movement doesn't provoke.

Need to get the wizard out of harm's way?

Shove them.

Even with a +1 mod, your expertise will do the trick. Especially once you get Reliable Talent (+8 from prof alone, minimum roll is 10, so 19+).

Additionally, if you get a high enough str score (or magic item) you can just bonus action disengage, grapple an ally, and run off with them.

Yes, I've found this to be a lifesaver. I've also carried allies away while casting bonus action spells.

Dressing up like your allies can give you advantage (not mechanic tho maybe) as if you can break line of sight the enemy won't know which of you is which PC. Just uh, if you're a halfling you better have a great roll when trying to disguise yourself as your Goliath ally...

Oh wow... Y'know, that sounds like a really good ability. I'll try to find a way to implement it! Thanks!


Twilight clerics are OP. Since you don't have Tashas, see below. BLUF: 300' darkvision, ADV on initiative, channel divinity persistent AOE temp hp or uncharm/unfrighten spam, flight. Crazy good.

Twilight Domain Spells
Cleric Level Spells
1st Faerie Fire, Sleep
3rd Moonbeam, See Invisibility
5th Aura of Vitality, Leomund's Tiny Hut
7th Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility
9th Circle of Power, Mislead

Bonus Proficiencies
At 1st level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor.

Eyes of Night
Starting at 1st level, you can see through the deepest gloom. You have darkvision out to a range of 300 feet. In that radius, you can see in dim light as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light.

As an action, you can magically share the darkvision of this feature with willing creatures you can see within 10 feet of you, up to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one creature). The shared darkvision lasts for 1 hour. Once you share it, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to share it again.

Vigilant Blessing
At 1st level, the night has taught you to be vigilant. As an action, you give one creature you touch (including possibly yourself) advantage on the next initiative roll the creature makes. This benefit ends immediately after the roll or if you use this feature again.

Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary
At 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:

You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

Steps of Night
Starting at 6th level, you can draw on the mystical power of night to rise into the air. As a bonus action when you are in dim light or darkness, you can magically give yourself a flying speed equal to your walking speed for 1 minute. You can use this bonus action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.






Also Nature Clerics are great and I've really enjoyed playing an Aasimar life cleric 1 / celestial warlock X w/ inspiring leader.

Good heavens, that's a lot. Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)
Divine Soul Sorceror (XgTE)
Celestial Warlock (XgTE)
Archfey Warlock (PHB)
Circle of Dreams Druid (XgTE)
Glamour Bard (XgTE)
I have played:
Life Domain Cleric. Multiple characters. Excellent support
Celestial Warlock. Multiple characters. Excellent Support. Besides her healing ability at level 1, she gets to offer Temp HP equal to half of her level Plus Cha mod every short or long rest at level 10. Handy.
Lore Bard. (1-20). She was excellent support (If you get the Inspiring Leader feat, the temp HP offsets some damage)
She healed well enough.
When she got high enough level, she took Heroes Feast. That's a great support spell for an entire party.
I found that using Cutting Words to either prevent a hit, or to reduce damage, became a very common use for my bardic inspiration in Tier 2.

[JellyPooga]

It's rather dependent on a somewhat loose definition of "support", but a Strength-based (Mastermind or Thief) Rogue with decent Charisma, Inspiring Leader and Healer (and at your option a dip into something that'll give you Medium and/or Heavy armour proficiency) can function as quite admirable support for a party. Bonus Action Help (Mastermind) or Equipment/Terrain use (Thief), temp HP on short rests and yo-yo healing that's only limited by how many Healing Kits you can afford, on top of remarkable (aka Uncanny) durability and/or aggro draw, grapple-tastic action for control, the flexibility and speed to be where and when you need to be and consistently decent damage output...all without having to count spell slots, daily uses or other limted resource.

It mighy be light on the healing factor, but a Rogue played with a little imagination can very much be a support character.

[JLandan]

If you're interested in Tasha's on the cheap, look for it at used book stores. AbeBooks.com has it for $16.50.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

It's rather dependent on a somewhat loose definition of "support", but a Strength-based (Mastermind or Thief) Rogue with decent Charisma, Inspiring Leader and Healer (and at your option a dip into something that'll give you Medium and/or Heavy armour proficiency) can function as quite admirable support for a party. Bonus Action Help (Mastermind) or Equipment/Terrain use (Thief), temp HP on short rests and yo-yo healing that's only limited by how many Healing Kits you can afford, on top of remarkable (aka Uncanny) durability and/or aggro draw, grapple-tastic action for control, the flexibility and speed to be where and when you need to be and consistently decent damage output...all without having to count spell slots, daily uses or other limted resource.

It mighy be light on the healing factor, but a Rogue played with a little imagination can very much be a support character.

Strogue is so dang good and has so many build options.

I like it with Cleric but really you can mix Rogue/Strogue with any other class and make an awesome character. I think the only class that doesn't really mix well is Ranger, but the 5e Ranger is well the 5e Ranger. You can do it, sure, but like anything else would be better.

Rogue/Druid is another particularly nasty combo.



The Rogue and Fighter should be one class.

[JellyPooga]

Strogue is so dang good and has so many build options.

I like it with Cleric but really you can mix Rogue/Strogue with any other class and make an awesome character. I think the only class that doesn't really mix well is Ranger, but the 5e Ranger is well the 5e Ranger. You can do it, sure, but like anything else would be better.

Rogue/Druid is another particularly nasty combo.



The Rogue and Fighter should be one class.




I actually think Rogue/Ranger is a particularly strong combination. Ranger offers medium armour (essential for a StRogue) and Horde Breaker (as a Hunter), which is a resourceless additional attack, though situational, to trigger Sneak Attack, either doubling down on dual wield or allowing for whip&shield (the low base damage more than made up for by SA's additional damage). In addition, Entangling Strike is a solid control option and Longstrider has its effect multiplied by Cunning Action (Dash), doubly so if taking the Mobile Feat. That's not even delving into any of the real cheese available to the multiclass.

[meandean]

If you want to shove people around as a caster, you might as well take the Telekinetic feat:

+1 to your casting stat.
Casters usually don't have a "go-to" option for their bonus action, so you'll use it plenty.
You can remain a good amount (30') away from the combatants, which is where a caster wants to be.
Telekinetic doesn't require any investment in Strength, which a caster otherwise doesn't need. Nor does it require taking the Athletics skill, when there are other skills you probably want more (Perception/Stealth of course, Arcana so you can make spell scrolls, and then whatever your casting stat will let you be really good at).
If you're using Telekinetic to bail out a teammate, you don't have to have a debate about whether saving throws can be voluntarily failed; it just works. If you're using it to move an opponent, it'll likely be a better DC, because of the aforementioned fact that it's based on the stat you're pumping and not on one you otherwise don't use. (And you'll also have that better DC when you try to do things like shove your opponent into a damaging area of effect spell.)

[Mindflayer_Inc]

I actually think Rogue/Ranger is a particularly strong combination. Ranger offers medium armour (essential for a StRogue) and Horde Breaker (as a Hunter), which is a resourceless additional attack, though situational, to trigger Sneak Attack, either doubling down on dual wield or allowing for whip&shield (the low base damage more than made up for by SA's additional damage). In addition, Entangling Strike is a solid control option and Longstrider has its effect multiplied by Cunning Action (Dash), doubly so if taking the Mobile Feat. That's not even delving into any of the real cheese available to the multiclass.

Anything the ranger gives you, you can do better with the Fighter (especially subclass).

You won't have enough spell slots to really get enough use out of Ranger. If you keep going ranger you don't get the goodies of the rogue.

Ranger also gives you, essentially, a dead level at Ranger 1.


Rogue/Fighter is just better.

[TheHalfAasimar]

I have played:
Life Domain Cleric. Multiple characters. Excellent support
Celestial Warlock. Multiple characters. Excellent Support Besides her healing ability at level 10, she gets to offer Temp HP equal to half of her level Plus Cha mod every short or long rest. Handy.
Lore Bard. (1-20). She was excellent support (If you get the Inspiring Leader feat, the temp HP offsets some damage)
She healed well enough.
When she got high enough level, she took Heroes Feast. That's a great support spell for an entire party.
I found that using Cutting Words to either prevent a hit, or to reduce damage, became a very common use for my bardic inspiration in Tier 2.

Hm, thanks for the advice! I'll keep that in mind.


It's rather dependent on a somewhat loose definition of "support", but a Strength-based (Mastermind or Thief) Rogue with decent Charisma, Inspiring Leader and Healer (and at your option a dip into something that'll give you Medium and/or Heavy armour proficiency) can function as quite admirable support for a party. Bonus Action Help (Mastermind) or Equipment/Terrain use (Thief), temp HP on short rests and yo-yo healing that's only limited by how many Healing Kits you can afford, on top of remarkable (aka Uncanny) durability and/or aggro draw, grapple-tastic action for control, the flexibility and speed to be where and when you need to be and consistently decent damage output...all without having to count spell slots, daily uses or other limted resource.

It mighy be light on the healing factor, but a Rogue played with a little imagination can very much be a support character.

Oh wow, that's great! I like how Rogues have both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, because it helps out surviving. And that is some really cool stuff! I think I'll try that out.


Strogue is so dang good and has so many build options.

I like it with Cleric but really you can mix Rogue/Strogue with any other class and make an awesome character. I think the only class that doesn't really mix well is Ranger, but the 5e Ranger is well the 5e Ranger. You can do it, sure, but like anything else would be better.

Rogue/Druid is another particularly nasty combo.



The Rogue and Fighter should be one class.




Hm, thanks for that! I've been thinking of making a LE life domain/rogue who basically has three rules: Draw no blood (unnecessarily) basically, they don't kill people willy-nilly. They like torture. Leave no trace. Arouse no suspicion. So yeah, thanks for the advice!


If you want to shove people around as a caster, you might as well take the Telekinetic feat:

+1 to your casting stat.
Casters usually don't have a "go-to" option for their bonus action, so you'll use it plenty.
You can remain a good amount (30') away from the combatants, which is where a caster wants to be.
Telekinetic doesn't require any investment in Strength, which a caster otherwise doesn't need. Nor does it require taking the Athletics skill, when there are other skills you probably want more (Perception/Stealth of course, Arcana so you can make scrolls, and then whatever your casting stat will let you be really good at).
If you're using Telekinetic to bail out a teammate, you don't have to have a debate about whether saving throws can be voluntarily failed; it just works. If you're using it to move an opponent, it'll likely be a better DC, because of the aforementioned fact that it's based on the stat you're pumping and not on one you otherwise don't use. (And you'll also have that better DC when you try to do things like shove your opponent into a damaging area of effect spell.)


OH BOY THAT'S GREAT! I can now just imagine a bard just shoving people around and stuff! Then that becomes a very battlefield control, which is another thing I'd like to play.

[JellyPooga]

Anything the ranger gives you, you can do better with the Fighter (especially subclass).

You won't have enough spell slots to really get enough use out of Ranger. If you keep going ranger you don't get the goodies of the rogue.

Ranger also gives you, essentially, a dead level at Ranger 1.


Rogue/Fighter is just better.

Looking at Ranger 3 vs Fighter 3, the latter offers bigger burst with Action Surge and Battle Master manoeuvers, but Ranger leans further into sustainable benefits (less per rest resource as a rule and the spells that they have, can have long duration) and particularly in support, especially if you're willing to devote more tham a 3 level dip.

Fighter has better arena-style white room potential, but I reckon Ranger to be the better support/longevity backup or adventuring applicability, particularly as it pertains to a Rogue multiclass.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Looking at Ranger 3 vs Fighter 3, the latter offers bigger burst with Action Surge and Battle Master manoeuvers, but Ranger leans further into sustainable benefits (less per rest resource as a rule and the spells that they have, can have long duration) and particularly in support, especially if you're willing to devote more tham a 3 level dip.

Fighter has better arena-style white room potential, but I reckon Ranger to be the better support/longevity backup or adventuring applicability, particularly as it pertains to a Rogue multiclass.

I see. A little off-topic, but I've wanted to play a Drakewarden Ranger ever since I got Fizban's! Rangers, Paladins, and Fighters all seem pretty similar on the surface, but they all serve a very different purposes. Paladins are definitely DPS, rangers are good at finding things and nature stuff, and Fighters can serve a lot of different roles, whether it's (minor) spellcasting, (mild) support, (crap) archery, or (actually very good) HAHA I SMACK YOU 11 SINGLE TIMES IN SIX SECONDS. If you play a fighter, there's a subclass for basically everything a fighter could ever want.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Looking at Ranger 3 vs Fighter 3, the latter offers bigger burst with Action Surge and Battle Master manoeuvers, but Ranger leans further into sustainable benefits (less per rest resource as a rule and the spells that they have, can have long duration) and particularly in support, especially if you're willing to devote more tham a 3 level dip.

Fighter has better arena-style white room potential, but I reckon Ranger to be the better support/longevity backup or adventuring applicability, particularly as it pertains to a Rogue multiclass.

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.

If you want the support nature-ish spells, go Druid.

The nonmagical side of ranger, for support, is Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy, both which are rather lackluster (just take Expertise Survival/Nature if you want that to be your thing).

Ranger is just, bad, all around.

It's not about white room or not. The ranger class just isn't even finished.

[TheHalfAasimar]

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.

If you want the support nature-ish spells, go Druid.

The nonmagical side of ranger, for support, is Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy, both which are rather lackluster (just take Expertise Survival/Nature if you want that to be your thing).

Ranger is just, bad, all around.

It's not about white room or not. The ranger class just isn't even finished.

Okay then. But there's always Drakewarden...

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Okay then. But there's always Drakewarden...

Which is more the subclass than the class, but more to the point...

You don't want to be multiclassing when taking that subclass. Pairing it with Strogue is a bad idea.

The Rangers class is still not made well even with a bandaid out on it.

[lall]

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.
I think the Fey Wanderer’s Otherworldly Glamour is the only way to add WIS to CHA checks (though the Artificer’s Flash of Genius allows you to add INT). I wouldn’t take 3 levels of Ranger for it, but it is cool.

[RogueJK]

I think the Fey Wanderer’s Otherworldly Glamour is the only way to add WIS to CHA checks

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.

[JellyPooga]

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.

I disagree, at least in terms of looking at Ranger for a dip (to which I mean, at most three levels).

Ranger offers an additional skill proficiency, additional weapon and armour proficiencies, an additional expertise (or the Natural Explorer benefits, if you prefer), spellcasting (albeit low level), Favoured Enemy (including its additional language) and a Fighting Style before even looking at subclass benefits. Yes, some of these are offered by other classes, but not all; Ranger adds solid diversity and general additional competence where other Classes might offer more specialised or limited (by use per rest or by other constraint) fare.

Could you also get similar diversity from multiple multiclassss (e.g. Bard 1/Druid 1/Fighter 1 instead of Ranger 3)? Yes, you could. Paticularly if you're looking at a Dex/Wis/Cha build anyway. It might even be better in some aspects. In the example case, you'd get Cantrips, Second Wind and Bardic Inspiration and you'd know Druidic at the expense of the Expertise, or Natural Explorer, plus Favoured Enemy and the subclass benefits that Ranger offers. And you'd have to deal with Druidic armour restrictions, not to mention any other roleplaying aspects to developing such a build. Personally, I'd just take Ranger if only because it's less hassel.

Ranger also offers the only additional attack that isn't gated by limited uses for a 3 level buy-in. I'd say that's worth a second mention.

In the context of adding facility to StRogue to add support options, Ranger offers more of what Rogue does already in terms of support rather than additional functions; kind of like if Rogues were magic swords, Ranger/Rogue is a +1 Rogue instead of a Flaming Rogue.

[LudicSavant]

Expanding on the comments about Grave vs Life Domain healing earlier:

Life Domain Clerics
Life domain is a game changer in terms of healing, granting hundreds of extra HP of healing over other clerics. Unlike typical clerics, you can genuinely out-heal damage in-combat, and out of combat you will be spending markedly fewer spell slots to get the party back to healthy condition.

For example, say you have a level 6 Paladin, and they got knocked down to zero. You can use a level 1 Healing Word and a Channel Divinity to generate 43.5 hit points (with 36 of that hp going to the Paladin, and the rest being spread around the party). For perspective, a level 6 character with a d10 HD and 14 Con has 52 hit points. And all you spent is one of your 6 Channel Divinities for the day (if that day has 2 short rests) and a level 1 spell slot.

Another note is that all this healing doesn't necessarily mean you're just going to be a healbot. On the contrary: Since you can get the party's healing done with fewer slots, you have more slots left over for other stuff, like Spirit Guardians and so forth.

Aura of Vitality in an L3 slot heals 125 hit points over its duration, compared to 70 from a normal Cleric. That's +55 hp, or 179% extra healing -- nearly double!

This is a positively gigantic heal and makes it very easy to keep your party topped off for every encounter. Remember what I said about how a level 6 character has like 50 hit points? Yeah, this is a full party heal.

Channel Divinity scales fairly aggressively (ending up with a pool of 900 hp / 2 short rest day at high levels). Additionally, since it's not a spell, you can cast a bonus action spell in the same turn (such as Spiritual Weapon, Sanctuary, Healing Word, Mass Healing Word, Shield of Faith, Divine Word, etc).

Healing Word with DoL+Blessed Healer and a level 1 slot heals for 13.5 hp -- about 180% of what a normal Cleric gets out of it. Or to look at it another way, an upcast level 2 Cure Wounds heals 14 hp. A Celestial Warlock using a 4d6 Healing Light bonus action heals 14 hp. A level 1 Absorb Elements against a failed Fireball save is 13.5 average hp. A level 3 Armor of Agathys gives 15 temp HP.

Mass Healing Word on a Life Cleric is enough to undo more than half of the effect of a Fireball hitting the whole party for a bonus action of the same spell level. Try comboing it with the Channel Divinity!

Mass Cure Wounds on a Life Cleric is healing 25.5 per target, and 32.5 to yourself (or a total of 109 hp to a party of 4). Or to put it another way, it's about 1.5x as much healing to 4 targets as a standard Cleric's version.

For perspective, if a party's failing 50% of saves for half, a Cone of Cold will do 27 average damage per target.

Regenerate On a regular Cleric, this is 1 healing per round for 600 rounds. On a Life Cleric, it's 10 healing per round for 600 rounds -- basically like someone's casting a buffed Healing Word on you at the start of each of your turns every round, action-economy free. So yes, this yo-yos, too.

So basically what you can do is cast this on someone out of combat to fully heal them, then have them just sort of not worry about healing for an hour's worth of encounters afterwards. Doesn't require Concentration!

Life Transference Normally this heals ~36 at the cost of 18 damage to yourself (net 18). On a Life Cleric it heals for 41 at the cost of 13 damage to yourself (net 28). And since you keep healing yourself whether you want to or not from Blessed Healer, that damage will likely go away in a while anyways. 41 hp is nearly a full life bar for an early tier 2 character.

___

Now the Grave Cleric's healing compares fairly poorly with all of this. "Maximize" might sound like a lot, but a level 1 Healing Word will only gain +1.5 damage from being maximized. Same for a Mass Healing Word. Cure Wounds will only get +3.5 from being maximized (compared to a +3 from DoL, and another +3 from Blessed Healer). Life Transference isn't boosted at all. Aura of Vitality will only be boosted on the turn that it yo-yos (and even then, it's just +5... the same amount that DoL alone gives on every turn). Regenerate won't be boosted. Heal won't be boosted.

Grave Cleric's feature perhaps combos best with one of the weakest healing spells in the game: Cure Wounds. But even then, it's only granting +3.5 healing per spell level, and upcasting Cure Wounds is uh... expensive.

Their level 6 feature is more valuable, but it's capped in uses per day, and (outside of a few rare exceptions) and crits only add so many dice of damage. Also, crits by their nature are unreliable -- some days you won't get 5 separate crits spread out across different turns.

Grave's Channel of Divinity is potentially nice, if you have an ally who hits meaningfully harder than you could with an Action + resource. Also you gotta make sure the initiative lines up, or use a Ready. Sharpshooter Fighter attacks alone aren't enough to make this pay off, you want like, a big juicy smite.

[lall]

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.
Ah yeah, that is true. Better bang for the buck though with the Fey Wanderer. For example, three levels of Ranger for Otherworldly Glamour and three levels of Fighter for the Battle Master’s Commanding Presence is preferable to seven levels spent getting Elegant Courtier (if you’re only focused on CHA checks).

[TheHalfAasimar]

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

[LudicSavant]

Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)


Grave Domain cleric

I've already mentioned my thoughts on Grave vs Life. So now for Forge and Light.

Light Domain Cleric is the more resource-efficient of the two blaster Clerics, and has considerably better area coverage.

Why is it more resource efficient than Tempest? Well, let me put it this way. A Fireball does 28 average damage with a 3rd level slot. A Maximized Upcast Shatter does a fairly similar 32, except it costs the slot and a Channel Divinity for a single output, and it has an itty bitty 10 foot radius compared to Fireball's juicy 20-foot (and remember, a doubled radius means four times the 2D area, and 8 times the 3D volume. So the difference is pretty big here).

Meanwhile, the Light Cleric's channel divinity is an entirely separate resource, that hits an enormous 65 foot diameter that ignores friendly fire, and does a respectable 2d10+level damage. At level 2 this already does more damage than a 2nd level Shatter, in about 10x the area (or 20x the volume). By level 20, it does 31 damage, so in a 2 short rest day you're basically getting 9 extra AoEs that do more damage than Fireball, in a far larger area of effect, that deals one of the best damage types in the game (Radiant), and gives enemies Disadvantage on the save. No extra spell slots required. You can just make that your basic attack at that point.

See what I mean about resource efficiency? Tempest is using their Channel Divinity to boost weak blasting spells into decent ones. Light Cleric just already has Fireball, and uses their Channel Divinity to cast more and separate blasts which are (usually) worth more than Harness Divine Power spell slots in their own right.

Their level 17 ability, Corona of Light, is also better than it might appear at first blush. It only lasts a minute, but it's like Shillelagh -- there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from just casting it infinitely, so you can potentially just have it on whenever, and it's giving Disadvantage on saves against not only your own blasts, but any from party members as well -- like, say, if your wizard buddy throws a Meteor Swarm.

Warding Flare is only okay. Disadvantage is nice and all, but it's held back by the fact that it's used before the roll rather than after, making it worse than something like, say, Runic Shield. You can think of Warding Flare as a relatively small handful of extra hit points per day.

The spell list is a treat. Fireball of course never stops being good, Wall of Fire is a fantastic combo spell (remember, it doesn't give saving throws if people are pushed through it! Use this to buzzsaw bosses to death), Burning Hands is the highest direct damage AoE in both a 1st and 2nd level slot (but generally not worth using much beyond low levels), Faerie Fire is better utility than it seems (let me put it this way: objects do not get a saving throw against the 'see invisibility' part. Probably unintended, but c'est la vie), Guardian of Faith is solid since it lasts a bloody long time without Concentration, and Scorching Ray is situational but can be solid on some builds (for example, an MPMM Bugbear Cleric).

Great, A tier subclass. If you want to mix in blasting with your support, go for it.

Forge Domain Cleric
So Forge has a couple of niggling issues:
1) Its Channel Divinity is very subpar. Not only is it a little underwhelming on a use-for-use basis, but it also takes an hour, so it's unlikely you're even going to get to use it the full number of times per day. Thankfully, you can use Harness Divine Power from Tasha's instead, but you can only use that so many times per day.
2) Its ability to create +1 items is very likely to have diminishing returns or go fully obsolete at some point in the campaign if the game isn't especially stingy with magic items.
3) Almost all of its domain spell list is Concentration, and Clerics already have stiff competition for their Concentration.

Despite these shortcomings, it's a decent subclass. The Tasha's variants help cover some of its weaknesses (replace the Divine Strike with Blessed Strikes, and use Harness Channel Divinity), it has some good spells (like Wall of Fire and Animate Objects), and getting +1-2 AC and Fire Resistance is a good thing, as is nonmagical weapon resistance and fire immunity at high levels.

This is a Cleric that loves to wade into battle on the front lines with Dodge+Spirit Guardians, letting enemies melt away as they try in vain to harm you.

[RogueJK]

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

There are much better options for a multiclass Rogue to get frequent Advantage than Samurai Fighters, which can only do it 2x rounds per day (until 10th level, and then it's still only 1x round per combat). Sure it's technically "at will", but with extremely limited daily uses.

Whereas a spellcasting class is a good alternative, since there are tons of spells that can help you generate Advantage, which you'll almost certainly be able to use more than 2x rounds per day or even 1x round per combat. Stuff like Darkness/Fog Cloud/Shadow of Moil/Blindness/Find Familiar (Help)/Entangle/Web/Grease/Hideous Laughter/Hold Person/Shadow Blade/Improved Invisibility/etc.

Or there are class abilities like the Barbarian's Reckless Attack that can be used to generate Advantage at will an unlimited number of times per day. (STR-based Barbarian/Rogues are awesome!)

Or there are other class/subclass abilities that are more situational or more limited, but still usable more than just 2x/day, like Wolf Totem Barbarian, Battlemaster Feint/Trip maneuvers, etc.

Or there's even just using Athletics to Shove Prone.

So the Samurai and their Fighting Spirit ability is pretty far down the list of the best "Advantage Generators".

[TheHalfAasimar]

I've already mentioned my thoughts on Grave vs Life. So now for Forge and Light.

Light Domain Cleric is the more resource-efficient of the two blaster Clerics, and has considerably better area coverage.

Why is it more resource efficient than Tempest? Well, let me put it this way. A Fireball does 28 average damage with a 3rd level slot. A Maximized Upcast Shatter does a fairly similar 32, except it costs the slot and a Channel Divinity for a single output, and it has an itty bitty 10 foot radius compared to Fireball's juicy 20-foot (and remember, a doubled radius means four times the 2D area, and 8 times the 3D volume. So the difference is pretty big here).

Meanwhile, the Light Cleric's channel divinity is an entirely separate resource, that hits an enormous 65 foot diameter that ignores friendly fire, and does a respectable 2d10+level damage. At level 2 this already does more damage than a 2nd level Shatter, in about 10x the area (or 20x the volume). By level 20, it does 31 damage, so in a 2 short rest day you're basically getting 9 extra AoEs that do more damage than Fireball, in a far larger area of effect, that deals one of the best damage types in the game (Radiant), and gives enemies Disadvantage on the save. No extra spell slots required. You can just make that your basic attack at that point.

See what I mean about resource efficiency? Tempest is using their Channel Divinity to boost weak blasting spells into decent ones. Light Cleric just already has Fireball, and uses their Channel Divinity to cast more and separate blasts which are (usually) worth more than Harness Divine Power spell slots in their own right.

Their level 17 ability, Corona of Light, is also better than it might appear at first blush. It only lasts a minute, but it's like Shillelagh -- there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from just casting it infinitely, so you can potentially just have it on whenever, and it's giving Disadvantage on saves against not only your own blasts, but any from party members as well -- like, say, if your wizard buddy throws a Meteor Swarm.

Warding Flare is only okay. Disadvantage is nice and all, but it's held back by the fact that it's used before the roll rather than after, making it worse than something like, say, Runic Shield. You can think of Warding Flare as a relatively small handful of extra hit points per day.

The spell list is a treat. Fireball of course never stops being good, Wall of Fire is a fantastic combo spell (remember, it doesn't give saving throws if people are pushed through it! Use this to buzzsaw bosses to death), Burning Hands is the highest direct damage AoE in both a 1st and 2nd level slot (but generally not worth using much beyond low levels), Faerie Fire is better utility than it seems (let me put it this way: objects do not get a saving throw against the 'see invisibility' part. Probably unintended, but c'est la vie), Guardian of Faith is solid since it lasts a bloody long time without Concentration, and Scorching Ray is situational but can be solid on some builds (for example, an MPMM Bugbear Cleric).

Great, A tier subclass. If you want to mix in blasting with your support, go for it.

Forge Domain Cleric
So Forge has a couple of niggling issues:
1) Its Channel Divinity is very subpar. Not only is it a little underwhelming on a use-for-use basis, but it also takes an hour, so it's unlikely you're even going to get to use it the full number of times per day. Thankfully, you can use Harness Divine Power from Tasha's instead, but you can only use that so many times per day.
2) Its ability to create +1 items is very likely to have diminishing returns or go fully obsolete at some point in the campaign if the game isn't especially stingy with magic items.
3) Almost all of its domain spell list is Concentration, and Clerics already have stiff competition for their Concentration.

Despite these shortcomings, it's a decent subclass. The Tasha's variants help cover some of its weaknesses (replace the Divine Strike with Blessed Strikes, and use Harness Channel Divinity), it has some good spells (like Wall of Fire and Animate Objects), and getting +1-2 AC and Fire Resistance is a good thing, as is nonmagical weapon resistance and fire immunity at high levels.

This is a Cleric that loves to wade into battle on the front lines with Dodge+Spirit Guardians, letting enemies melt away as they try in vain to harm you.

I see what you're saying! I think that a Light domain cleric would work as both a DPS and a healer role, but more focused on blasting. But thanks for that!

[stoutstien]

Forge cleric is middle of the road for a domain but making platinum scalemail over the course of an adventure by converting scraps is just fun.

[Unoriginal]

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

The thing with Swashbuckler is they already get "basically Sneak Attacks at will" when in melee.

Swashbuckler/Samurai would be far from bad, but you'd get more benefit from a different Rogue subclass if what you want this combo for the at-will-Sneak-Attack part (rather than the things Swashbuckler can do with CHA, for example).

[TheHalfAasimar]

The thing with Swashbuckler is they already get "basically Sneak Attacks at will" when in melee.

Swashbuckler/Samurai would be far from bad, but you'd get more benefit from a different Rogue subclass if what you want this combo for the at-will-Sneak-Attack part (rather than the things Swashbuckler can do with CHA, for example).

Okay, good point. I think maybe Thief or Mastermind would work better..?

[Arkhios]

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level.

Okay, I see where you're getting at. Thanks for the suggestion!

[LudicSavant]

I see what you're saying! I think that a Light domain cleric would work as both a DPS and a healer role, but more focused on blasting. But thanks for that!

For most clerics filling the healer role is not going to mean using direct in-combat heals, so much as it is using stuff like...

- Crucial status effect removal (like Lesser Restoration or Greater Restoration or Revivify).
- Buffs that make people harder to hurt (like Heroes Feast or Bless or Sanctuary).
- Non-combat healing (like Aura of Vitality healing 70 hp)
- Yo-yo healing (like Healing Word)

Though you can still burst heal with Life Transference or Heal or Mass Heal.

If you want to be healing people with direct, in-combat heals, Life is the way to go.

[TheHalfAasimar]

For most clerics filling the healer role is not going to mean using direct in-combat heals, so much as it is using stuff like...

- Crucial status effect removal (like Lesser Restoration or Greater Restoration or Revivify).
- Buffs that make people harder to hurt (like Heroes Feast or Bless or Sanctuary).
- Non-combat healing (like Aura of Vitality healing 70 hp)
- Yo-yo healing (like Healing Word)

Though you can still burst heal with Life Transference or Heal or Mass Heal.

If you want to be healing people with direct, in-combat heals, Life is the way to go.

I see what you're saying. Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

OH BOY THAT'S GREAT! I can now just imagine a bard just shoving people around and stuff! Then that becomes a very battlefield control, which is another thing I'd like to play. My bard's background was sailor. Athletics. I gave her expertise. With a 12 Strength, her ability shove and grapple surprised a few opponents, to include a beholder / Death Tyrant during a tier 3 adventure: a successful grapple reduces speed to 0. :smallbiggrin: (Yes, he chomped on her a bit). That allowed the other three party members to maneuver a bit and then finish him off. Luckily, bard made her saves versus the little eyeshots ... had she not, she might have been charmed or petrified into letting go of the grapple.

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level. My Watchers paladin deliberately maxed Charisma at the expense of other choices for ASI. Two benefits: when I did cast a spell, Save DC as good. Aura gave very nice save bonuses. Had I taken the Inspiring Leader feat (I did not) I think my support role would have been even better.

[TheHalfAasimar]

My bard's background was sailor. Athletics. I gave her expertise. With a 12 Strength, her ability shove and grapple surprised a few opponents, to include a beholder during a tier 3 adventure: a successful grapple reduces speed to 0. :smallbiggrin: (Yes, he chomped on her a bit). That allowed the other three party members to maneuver a bit and then finish him off. Luckily, bard made her saves versus the little eyeshots ... had she not, she might have been charmed or petrified into letting go of the grapple.
My Watchers paladin deliberately maxed Charisma at the expense of other choices for ASI. Two benefits: when I did cast a spell, Save DC as good. Aura gave very nice save bonuses. Had I taken the Inspiring Leader feat (I did not) I think my support role would have been even better.

That sounded fun!

[KorvinStarmast]

That sounded fun! She was also good at getting out of grapples. :smallsmile: Handy when we ran into stuff like Ropers (early game) or a Kraken (late game).

[TheHalfAasimar]

She was also good at getting out of grapples. :smallsmile: Handy when we ran into stuff like Ropers (early game) or a Kraken (late game).

A kraken? Cool! That sounds fun!

[KorvinStarmast]

A kraken? Cool! That sounds fun!
It was fun.

It killed our hexblade. (I revived him with revivify).
It swallowed my bard. (I DD'd out).
It made our paladin(Glory) fight hard to win. (I had cast freedom of movement on him...)
It tried to poison all of us. (Heh, I had cast Heroes feast ahead of time, no poison! :smallbiggrin: )
It drove our sorlock a bit nuts as he tried to hit it with stuff that bothered it.
A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.

[TheHalfAasimar]

It was fun.

It killed our hexblade. (I revived him with revivify).
It swallowed my bard. (I DD'd out).
It made our paladin(Glory) fight hard to win. (I had cast freedom of movement on him...)
It tried to poison all of us. (Heh, I had cast Heroes feast ahead of time, no poison! :smallbiggrin: )
It drove our sorlock a bit nuts as he tried to hit it with stuff that bothered it.
A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.


Wow, sounds like a good time!