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View Full Version : A Little d30 love...



Lord Tataraus
2007-12-14, 01:52 AM
The d12 thread got me thinking. The d12, though known as the least used die, is used more often then one thinks. I feel it is not the d12 that needs some love, but the d30. I have only seen one game that uses a d30: Risus with a variant rule. Why not include the poor d30? So, my question to you is this: What games do incorporate the d30 and how? and is there some way to implement the d30 in the d20 system?

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-14, 01:58 AM
I'm more curious as to how many people even OWN a D30.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-14, 02:00 AM
Speaking of weird dice, I have a 2d6. :smallsmile:

Ponce
2007-12-14, 02:01 AM
You could try to replace the d20 with the d30. The target values for all things in general would have to be raised (probably by 5), but I think it could work. I mean, I don't think there is anything inherent about the number 20 that makes it practical in this regard. Though, I think a d30 would downplay the abilities of characters, particularly at low levels. Your modifiers are less potent and your roll is far more relevant.

Also... days of the month? I don't know. :smallconfused:

DJ Scrub
2007-12-14, 02:27 AM
Then you would only have a 1 in 30 chance of a "nat 30," so if that effect is balanced when it occurs on one roll in 20, you have a problem.

Ponce
2007-12-14, 02:35 AM
Then you would only have a 1 in 30 chance of a "nat 30," so if that effect is balanced when it occurs on one roll in 20, you have a problem.
Assuming you use critical successes and failures at all. I don't, personally. To me, a natural 20 is just a high roll, not an automatic success.

If you do use that "natural 20" system, things will change, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be a problem. Its a plus, in fact, if you are like me and prefer not to have these kinds of things be a factor.

If you like the idea of natural 20s (or 30s), then the idea might not be for you.

Jarawara
2007-12-14, 02:36 AM
Already did that, Ponce. 'Course, that was back in 1st edition, when I perceived some flaws in the standard chart that could be corrected by upping the variability range from 20 to 30. I also added a bunch of bells and whistles, like limiting the maximum Bab* if you rolled really low (thus insuring low rolls will miss, even if you're high level), and likewise adding into the system a possible hit with high rolls, at half damage, even if the AC was too tough to otherwise hit.

Even a high level character could roll low and miss a Kobold, while the Kobold roll high and score at least a minor hit on the PC. With the standard d20, it was possible to have auto-hits and impossible to hit AC's, and there wasn't enough range of the dice to easily add in the bells and whistles.

I haven't bothered to do the same for third edition, just because I'm gaming with people half way across the planet, and they don't have d30's. And we're only playing low level, so I can still hit with Kobolds anyway.


*Yes, Bab, not the 1st edition to-hit chart. We were using a Bab system like 3rd edition uses, way back in the 80's. As well as using the modern XP chart. And attacks of opportunity. 3rd edition simply caught up with what the players were already doing. Not a rant, just bragging. :smalltongue:

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-14, 02:46 AM
Well, the d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20 are all the easiest "fair" dice to make, which is why they're commonly used. Indeed, if you notice, they're quite regular and symmetrical. This is not true of the d30 (or the d10), which are a rather different sort of dice. The d10 is a useful dice because of its usefulness in making d100s (which are good for random loot generation, among other things) and simply because it is a smallish dice, but not too small. The d20 is great as a base die for a fairly random thing, because it has a fair amount of range yet conversely the range is not SO large that a +1 bonus is not meaningless. Indeed, I think that the reason the d20 is so useful is because it is easy to calculate probabilities and because it is large enough to give a fairly random result yet small enough that small bonuses and penalties make a significant difference, and that there is a lot of gradation possible (+20 is +100%, fundamentally; +10 is +50%, and worth noting is that +10 is basically the same as adding another d20, on average).

Basically, the d20 is good because it is small enough that small bonuses can make a difference and large enough that there are a lot of possiblities. It also helps that it is an inherently fair die and is easy to make.

Ponce
2007-12-14, 02:48 AM
Already did that, Ponce. 'Course, that was back in 1st edition, when I perceived some flaws in the standard chart that could be corrected by upping the variability range from 20 to 30. I also added a bunch of bells and whistles, like limiting the maximum Bab* if you rolled really low (thus insuring low rolls will miss, even if you're high level), and likewise adding into the system a possible hit with high rolls, at half damage, even if the AC was too tough to otherwise hit.
How did it work out? I'm curious as the idea of converting d20 to d30 struck me as an idea before, though I started playing DnD following the release of 3.5.

TomTheRat
2007-12-14, 02:56 AM
I have a d30. The point of my d30 is to throw it at my cat, Painhammer Thunderkitty, and to watch her chase after it.

Jarawara
2007-12-14, 02:57 AM
How did it work out? I'm curious as the idea of converting d20 to d30 struck me as an idea before, though I started playing DnD following the release of 3.5.

It actually worked well. We used the d30 for years, until our group finally disbanded. One of my old players came by a couple years back, asking me for the charts, he was going to update his 3E group to d30 as well.

Thing is, back in the good ol days, the game wasn't as... "balanced" as it is now. (I pause to wait for the snickering to die down) I don't really know if I could just insert the d30 back into the system without messing things up. Alot of 3rd edition was designed to work the way it does for a reason, and woe to those to houserule without considering all the implications.

Then again, maybe it'll still work. I've just not spent the time to consider all the details yet.

I'll try and dig out the old chart and post my thought on it here sometime. For it to make sense, I really should detail what I was trying to correct, as well as what changes and add-ons I put into it. And of course, this *was* for 1st edition, so the AC is inverted - I'll try to reverse that before posting anything, or the whole system will look upside down.

But yeah, short answer, it worked alot better than d20.

Jarawara
2007-12-14, 02:59 AM
TomTheRat's got a good point, though - those d30's roll across the floor like the dickens. My cat prefers it over the d20 by far.

They also make great flaming sphere's (at least the red ones do). Just the right size to fill a square, and then just roll it into the miniatures. Whatever mini's get knocked over, they get burned! :smallbiggrin:

brian c
2007-12-14, 03:09 AM
Speaking of weird dice, I have a 2d6. :smallsmile:

How does that work? Are they just tied together or in a ball together, or is it actually a 36-sided die with one 12, one 2, etc for all the probabilities?



Anyway, I will never use a d30. Probably because I'm a geometry geek, I dislike any die that isn't a regular polyhedron. d10s are pretty useless too; if it's absolutely necessary, I'd rather do d20 / 2

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-14, 03:13 AM
It is a large clear d6 with a normal sized d6 inside it.

brian c
2007-12-14, 03:26 AM
That's pretty cool; makes rolling Sneak Attack dice a lot easier for the rogue. have any 8d6s? :smallwink:

Ponce
2007-12-14, 03:30 AM
I don't know... hurling armfuls of d6s is quite satisfying. While practical, I don't know if I like the idea of a 2d6...

Skyserpent
2007-12-14, 03:30 AM
My DM used d30s for his BBEGs... It's messed up. suddenly a DC 19 Will save spell isn't all that impressive. Screw him.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-14, 03:31 AM
It is actually a really fragile die. I don't use it anymore. Now I have a set of steel dice. Hopefully that will curb my appetite for novelty dice for awhile.

raygungothic
2007-12-14, 03:49 AM
I have a d30. I've used it but never actually *needed* it. It is a fair die though - no geometrical problems with it.

However, the zocchihedron is a much better die in the opinion of cats. Not only can it roll for ages, it makes an entertaining noise while it does so... it must be hunted down! At one point a friend's kitten hid mine for several months, but returned it eventually. Also in its favour on the feline front, I don't really fear that it might get swallowed, unlike smaller dice.

(For what it's worth, the zh d100 is quite a lot fairer than the notorious White Dwarf test suggests but still not perfect).

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-14, 03:57 AM
notorious White Dwarf test?

Jarchh
2007-12-14, 05:30 AM
It is a large clear d6 with a normal sized d6 inside it.

hehe I have one of those, I found it at the science museum in london. Pretty nifty thing, but the outer dots are all really scratched.

kjones
2007-12-14, 10:31 AM
The d30 isn't the "least used" die... that honor lies with the d7 and the d24.

KoDT69
2007-12-14, 11:01 AM
Here's a little d30 love
@->->-- <3

Exile
2007-12-14, 11:02 AM
I've actually found a use for mine in the game I'm DMing. Since the D6 is roughly 30% of the D20, I use it as an "action die" for percentile dice rolls. Of course, then you have to question how many percentile dice actually get tossed over the course of a game and whether blowing an action die on it makes sense, but I allow my players to do it.

Exile

ThunderEagle
2007-12-14, 11:17 AM
Runebearer (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/bostonia/frameset.html) uses the d30 as part of the rules for levelling up skills. also uses the d12 for the main die. also provides uses for your d14 and d16. quite a nice system.

RandomLogic
2007-12-14, 12:05 PM
I own a d30. I don't think I've ever used it in the game, except as a potential offensive weapon at another player perhaps.

Also, they roll like a ball.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-14, 12:24 PM
I used to have a d100, but I lost it...I bet one of my cats took it. Though I must say I love my d30 though I use it mainly as a life counter for M:tG Two-Headed Giant format. Replacing a d20 with a d30 is an interesting idea, I might fool around with that one...

raygungothic
2007-12-14, 12:32 PM
Skjaldbakka - when the d100 first came out, some nutcase rolled one more than 5,100 times (apparently a statistical confidence requirement) and concluded that it was significantly biased against the highest and lowest numbers. They're reputed to have improved since then (later ones have a neater internal seam, and apparently the filler grains were changed at some point though I'm not sure - I've only cracked one and that was by accident!).

I haven't rolled mine 5,100 times because life's too short, but the bias claimed was such that it should have shown up in the several hundred rolls I have tallied (I was bored and boring in those days...), and it doesn't. This gives me some confidence that they are genuinely improved over early models. On the other hand, it can in theory never be a fair dice as the side spacing isn't always equal... and it's such a silly dice it makes the d30 shine by comparison! (not only is it fair, it stops rolling THIS week)

...phew, managed to bring that super-nerdy digression post back on topic in the end :smallbiggrin:

(PS - quick googling "zocchihedron" brought up a reference to the WD test here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocchihedron
)

Jayabalard
2007-12-14, 12:36 PM
I'm more curious as to how many people even OWN a D30.I've got one somewhere.

ColdBrew
2007-12-14, 03:10 PM
The racing game Formula De uses a d30 for the highest gear, I believe.

Bedlam
2007-12-14, 03:28 PM
Ive got a D30, I've also got a D100 and a percentile set with the units dice actually inside the tens dice, I've seen D20s (D400s?) set up this way as well.

Indon
2007-12-14, 03:50 PM
The Diablo RPG, made for 3.0, uses D30's in its' treasure tables, along with D40's, D60's, and so on.

The treasure table instructs you to roll these dice like you would percentiles; the D30 is the D6/2+D10, D40 is D4+D10, and so on.

Chronos
2007-12-14, 08:38 PM
Well, the d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20 are all the easiest "fair" dice to make, which is why they're commonly used. Indeed, if you notice, they're quite regular and symmetrical. This is not true of the d30 (or the d10), which are a rather different sort of dice.I take it you've never seen a d30? They're actually quite symmetrical: A d30 has exactly the same symmetries as a d12 or d20. There are also a couple of d60 designs and a d120 with those symmetries, too. If you're going to pick on any die for its symmetry, it should be the d10, which has less symmetry even than the humble d4.

If you're really curious, the d4 (and one type of nonstandard d12) has 24 elements in its symmetry group, the d6 and d8 (and another type of d12, and several different types of d24, and the d48) have 48 elements, the d10 has 20 elements, and the standard d12 and d20 (and the d30, and several types of d60, and the d120) has 120 elements in its symmetry group. I've never seen a d100 closely enough to tell for sure, but I think it has a 20-element symmetry group (though it might be as few as 4).

Caxton
2007-12-15, 10:23 AM
The d30 is used way more often than the d24. However, I have used the d24 for one thing in my entire dm'ing career; determining the time that advenruers leave the dungeon.

SoD
2007-12-15, 01:16 PM
Random dates. If you want something to happen at a random time in the year, I use a d12 to work out the month, the d30 to work out the day, and the d24 to work out the hour. Yes, in my world there are 30 days in every month. Why? Because I don't have a d31 or a d29...yes, my world is based on my dice.

Citizen Joe
2007-12-15, 01:29 PM
Yes, in my world there are 30 days in every month. Why? Because I don't have a d31 or a d29...yes, my world is based on my dice.

Maybe it is just that nothing important occurs on those weird days.

Admiral_Kelly
2007-12-15, 02:58 PM
How you can have any day of the year:

Roll together 1 d6, 1 d12, and 1 d30. Multiply the result of the d12 by the result of the d30, then add the result of the d6 and then subtract 1 (d12*d30 + d6 - 1). The resulting number is that day of the year.

However, the problem with that is figuring out the actual date; so DMs may be better off saying each month has thirty days in his fantasy world.

Edan
2007-12-15, 03:12 PM
I have a d30, I used to have a custom chaos event table that was homebrewed to use with a modded chaos diamond. It was just an excuse to use a d30 tho.

My cats prefer the d100 to d30 tho.

Citizen Joe
2007-12-15, 06:58 PM
How you can have any day of the year:

Roll together 1 d6, 1 d12, and 1 d30. Multiply the result of the d12 by the result of the d30, then add the result of the d6 and then subtract 1 (d12*d30 + d6 - 1). The resulting number is that day of the year.

However, the problem with that is figuring out the actual date; so DMs may be better off saying each month has thirty days in his fantasy world.

Err.. um... flawed math there...

(d12-1) x 30 + d30 + d6 - 1
There is a bias against the beginning and end of the year that way. Adding dice creates a bell curve. Hmm... actually the bias would occur around the beginning or ending of each month...