Profession (labourer) compared to profession (lawyer)

[Emperor Demonking]

1) Do they get the same money (presuming same skills)?
2) If yes should they?
3) Does it really make sense for a genius labourer to make more money that the standard lawyer.

You may substitute labourer to carrier is you want.

[nargbop]

According to the Profession rules, anyway. :smallbiggrin: yes, yes, yes .

In the description for the worth of money, an untrained worker gets coppers per day, a trained one gets silvers, and experts and adventurers get gold pieces.

Profession (laborer) is not really a profession, IMO.

[SilverClawShift]

Profession (laborer) is not really a profession, IMO.

Going to have to agree there. "Laborer" describes a grouping of professions, not a profession itself.

[Sofaking]

Well, you could always consider the lawyer an expert because of the high level of education it would require. Profession is something simple, I can't take profession dragon slayer, but I could take profession baker.

But on another note, why does it matter?

[XiaoTie]

1) Do they get the same money (presuming same skills)?
By raw I think any profession makes as much as the next one, depending only on their level of skill and DM common sense.


2) If yes should they?
3) Does it really make sense for a genius labourer to make more money that the standard lawyer.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense, like, at all (unless the labourer work for a baron, a king or someone reaaaaally rich). But as a Law student I'm probably not the best person to take advices from on this subject :smalltongue:

[Mr. Friendly]

A professional laborer would be someone who has worked in a multitude of physical professions (carpentry, construction, etc.) and works as someone who carries things around, moves things and follows instructions. So, as a profession, this professional would have doe this for a long time and become a better laborer than an untrained laborer. So, in a construction scenario, he would be better qualified to take orders from the foreman and direct the other (untrained) laborers.

[Mewtarthio]

You have to bear in mind that, thanks to the rules of skill points, a guy with 10 ranks in Profession (trash collector) and a guy with 10 ranks in Profession (brain surgeon) are just as skilled at their jobs. It's not that the brain surgeon is the best brain surgeon in the world and the trash collector is the best trash collector in the world: It's that they both have literally the same skills. The trash collector went to trash collecting college, shelled out half a million dollars for the best trash collection schools, has five trash collecting degrees, and gets airlifted at the customer's expense whenever a rich guy needs the best trash collection money can buy. Just like the brain surgeon would be hired if the President had a stroke, the trash collector would be hired if a hurricane left the streets of a major city strewn with debris.

[Ganurath]

It makes sense due to supply and demand: In a world where any third level cleric can cast Zone of Truth, there's not much need for lawyers. Manual, labor, on the other hand, isn't obsolete until mid-to-high level arcanists show up.

[Duke of URL]

That's not a trash collector, that's a "sanitation engineer"!

Seriously, the Profession skill is supposed to model professions, not trades, so a laborer could not actually take ranks in Profession(laborer) because it is not a profession.

On the other hand, a specialized form of labor, such as carpentry, could theoretically qualify, though there you get into odd overlaps with Craft skills.

[Riffington]

It's almost as if the game designers wanted to skip over the downtime and move on to the adventuring!


Incidentally, Profession: laborer is too general. Profession: construction worker would be reasonable though. And useful. Whereas profession: lawyer would actually require you to take fast-talk and/or knowledge (law) to be at all practical.

[Ganurath]

Come to think of it, there can be no Profession (Laborer.)

Profession provides a service, Craft provides a product.

[Emperor Demonking]

As this is realated to this thread.

If 2 characters had proffesion (carrier) for example. Does it make sense that strength doesn't effect the score and the two make the same money.

[Mr. Friendly]

Here is a fun one:

Professional.. let's say Lawyer, since it's so popular, he takes 10 on his skill check every week. He's an ok lawyer (Expert 10 - 13 ranks) and he's reasonably wise (13 +1 , just to keep the math nice and even), which gives him a +14. That gives him a 24 on his check. Which means he earns 12gp/week, every week, no matter where he is.

Let's compare him to Johnny Rock Star, who is the greatest musician in the world. (Bard 20) He has incredible talent (23 Perform) and a phenominal personal magnetism (24 +7); he doesn't even need to try to give legendary performances. In a prosperous city (rather vague eh?) he can earn 3d6gp/day. He can (potentially) earn more in one night than the lawyer can in a week.

Now, if Johnny and the Lawyer tour cross country and visit every town, hamlet and metropolis along the way, over time the Lawyer makes more money since he makes his money in every single town (per RAW), while Johnny may or may not make as much as he wants, in fact he won't make anything at all in anything but a prosperous city.

I just think it's silly.

As a side note, you can use Tumble as a Perfom to earn money. You can use Slight of Hand as a Perform to earn money. You can use Perform as a Perform to earn money. Could you, in theory, Tumble, SoH and Sing all at the same time and earn the money from all 3 perform checks?

[Miles Invictus]

Keep in mind, a genius laborer isn't just some guy who moves boxes or digs ditches really fast. He also knows how to manage teams of workers, what sort of equipment to purchase, how much to charge for a job, and so on. A laborer with lots of ranks in Profession should be running his own business -- which nicely accounts for the money he makes.

[Mewtarthio]

By the same token, you could take Profession (teacher) despite having a Cha of 6. Good luck trying to get the attention of the class when your interpersonal abilities could be considered legally impaired.

[Mr. Friendly]

By the same token, you could take Profession (teacher) despite having a Cha of 6. Good luck trying to get the attention of the class when your interpersonal abilities could be considered legally impaired.

Very true. Consider also this case:

A Feebleminded character can still earn his full, normal money via Profession, no matter what that Profession is. Yes, a person with a 1 INT and 1 CHA can still earn his full amount..

Y'know that gives me a good idea....:smallbiggrin:

Edit:

Here's another one I was just considering; Per RAW there is no money to be made in either Decipher Script or Speak Language. So a Linguist or Translater could make no money. However, if he has Profession (Linguist) or Profession (Codebreaker) he earns the money, even despite being unable to provide the service he is being paid for.

[Duke of URL]

As this is realated to this thread.

If 2 characters had proffesion (carrier) for example. Does it make sense that strength doesn't effect the score and the two make the same money.

As much sense as anything else in D&D. Perhaps their strengths are unequal, but one knows tricks to make himself more effective.

The best argument here is that Profession should not be a WIS-based skill, but based instead on what attribute best represents the profession. That opens up to too much complication and controversy, though.

[Mewtarthio]

A Feebleminded character can still earn his full, normal money via Profession, no matter what that Profession is. Yes, a person with a 1 INT and 1 CHA can still earn his full amount.

Wouldn't somebody need to make a Handle Animal check to get him to work? :smallbiggrin:

"Go on! Teach, boy! Teach!"

[nargbop]

...and gets airlifted at the customer's expense whenever a rich guy needs the best trash collection money can buy. Just like the brain surgeon would be hired if the President had a stroke, the trash collector would be hired if a hurricane left the streets of a major city strewn with debris.

Hehe. A dude with 10 ranks in Trash Collecting is competent enough to clean up Superfund sites. He knows how to breed heavy-metal-absorbing plants. He can make the suits necessary to pick up nuclear waste. He has effective seal-washing skills for oil spills.

[Duke of URL]

Wouldn't somebody need to make a Handle Animal check to get him to work? :smallbiggrin:

"Go on! Teach, boy! Teach!"

Can you imagine the bardic inspiration for that one?

:elan: Teach, teach, teach the ignorant little savages!

[Jayabalard]

1) Do they get the same money (presuming same skills)?
2) If yes should they?
3) Does it really make sense for a genius labourer to make more money that the standard lawyer.

You may substitute labourer to carrier is you want. being a trained laborer seems like a silly idea to me...

"What are you looking at? You're laborers; you're supposed to be laboring. That's what you get for not having an education."

[Valairn]

Unsurprisingly there are in fact schools for "laborers" you'd be surprised at the numbers of extremely intelligent people who work construction work. Some of them are in college, some of them have degrees, and others are "uneducated." But seriously, just because a job is "simple" doesn't make it easy. The majority of us nitwits who sit behind desks all day could not do the labor that they do. Trust me there is a big big difference between a trained laborer and an untrained one.

[horseboy]

1) Do they get the same money (presuming same skills)?
2) If yes should they?
3) Does it really make sense for a genius labourer to make more money that the standard lawyer.

You may substitute labourer to carrier is you want.
That would depend on how strong the local union is.

[Cuddly]

There's a table in the DMG that clearly shows that different professions are payed different amounts.

[Indon]

Hmm...

Profession(Odd Jobs)...

[Jolly Steve]

By the same token, you could take Profession (teacher) despite having a Cha of 6. Good luck trying to get the attention of the class when your interpersonal abilities could be considered legally impaired.

Charisma 6 is actually the maximum Charisma to take Profession (teacher); except for female drama and art teachers who can have up to 8.

[Jolly Steve]

Wharfies (longshoremen in American English) can earn fairly large amounts of money, and they could be considered to be labourers.

Someone with a small number of ranks in Profession (lawyer) might not be a lawyer, but (eg) a notary, a lawyer's clerk, an ex-law student who's able to get a job working for a lawyer, an unqualified but learned person who acts as a legal advisor in small towns without lawyers, or someone who is competent and/or qualified only in one specialised aspect of the law, for example preparing wills.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

When I worked docks in high school, I made more than my cousin was a Public Defendant. So it can make sense for labourers to make more money.

[Old_el_Paso]

Well, you could always consider the lawyer an expert because of the high level of education it would require. Profession is something simple, I can't take profession dragon slayer, but I could take profession baker.

But on another note, why does it matter?No you cannot take profession (baker). You can take craft (bread).

[Snooder]

The simple answer is that you cannot take Profession(Laborer). Laborers, by which I'm fairly certain you mean the guys who carry boxes and hang around Home Depot looking for work, are generally synonymous with unskilled labor and as such cannot be skilled. One can't gain skills and still be unskilled as it were. The way I see it, all Professions are only things that can be trained in, like lawyering or dentistry e.t.c. Which in the medieval world that D&D is based on, formed the very small professional middle class. While there were gradations there with guilds like the lawyers making more money than carpenters for instance, the difference wasn't major enough to really require a different in the simplified and somewhat abstract D&D ruleset. As long as its clear that having some sort of profession entitles one to a middle class lifestyle as opposed to a lower class lifesyle of the unskilled or the upper class lifestyle of lucky adventurers and noblemen, the purpose is served.

[Mewtarthio]

No you cannot take profession (baker). You can take craft (bread).

Craft (baked goods) lets you make decent breads and pastries. Profession (baker) lets you run a bakery.

This gives me an idea for a silly message board game...

[Riffington]

No you cannot take profession (baker). You can take craft (bread).

You can do either.
Craft(baking) lets you bake tastier bread.
Profession (baker) lets you bake decently, run a shop, keep your customers happy, hire hard-working assistants, etc.

Profession is a better way to make money. Craft is a better way to create a product.

[horseboy]

The simple answer is that you cannot take Profession(Laborer). Laborers, by which I'm fairly certain you mean the guys who carry boxes and hang around Home Depot looking for work, are generally synonymous with unskilled labor and as such cannot be skilled.
Not true. When I was building bridges, Unskilled laborers (the guy who held the stop sign) made $24/hour. The skilled Laborers (guys who were checking the grade) made $26/hour.

[dyslexicfaser]

I would assume that a laborer with many ranks in the profession (laborer) skill would be, not the guy carting around boxes or digging a trench, but his boss. The foreman who is in charge of multiple jobs, does the meet and greet with the customers, can do anything from carpentry to plumbing to demo work, and makes $50 bucks an hour, not the laborer with a shovel making minimum wage.

[Emperor Demonking]

As I don't want to create a new thread.

Can I have profession (translater)?
Can I have profession (translater) if I only speak common?

[Kioran]

by RAW you can - but then, some profession might actually warrant Alignment Restrictions. Lawyers would be any non-good or non-lawful for example 8it´s a common misconception that lawyers are predominantly lawful - they´re most assuredly not).
Most of this is a case of rule 0 to me. if you´re incapable of doing your job, you earn no money, simple as that. A Teacher or lawyer should speak the language of the natives, a construction worker shouldn´t have penalties to con or strength and so on.......

[Hzurr]

It makes sense due to supply and demand: In a world where any third level cleric can cast Zone of Truth, there's not much need for lawyers. Manual, labor, on the other hand, isn't obsolete until mid-to-high level arcanists show up.

I highly disagree.

Zone-of-Truth works in things like trials, where there is a clear guilty/not guilty verdict. What about things like law suits? One person feels that he was wronged by another person, although wronged in a way that isn't necessarily illegal. Both people can tell the truth, but that doesn't always mean there will be a clear cut decision.

I mean, the majority of lawyers (in America at least) aren't trial lawyers, but rather represent people, companies, etc., to make sure their interests are protected.

On a side-note, in a d&d world, hopefully you could find a LN dragon or two who would go around and eat those people who sue because they don't want to take responsibility for their own actions (Edwardsville IL, I'm looking at you)

As far as "labourers" go, I think you're being too vague. There are some labor (or labour, if you're British) dig ditches, there are some who work in construction, there are some who do landskaping, there are some who are janitors (*sigh* this is starting to sound like a list of part-time jobs I did in high school. Kids, if you're thinking about not going to college, reconsider. Unless you want to major in philosophy, then you might as well save yourself some money, and get a job as a janitor) ANYWAY...

[random11]

Very true. Consider also this case:

Here's another one I was just considering; Per RAW there is no money to be made in either Decipher Script or Speak Language. So a Linguist or Translater could make no money. However, if he has Profession (Linguist) or Profession (Codebreaker) he earns the money, even despite being unable to provide the service he is being paid for.


That actually matches reality. :smallsmile:
In real life, you have plenty of people with talent that are unable to make money out of it, and even more people with jobs who have no idea how they got there.
This works double for government jobs...

[DeathQuaker]

Profession seems to be a catch-all to help PCs get some money earned from a non-adventuring job and reflect the PC's character background. I doubt they meant it to be a perfect system, but something to fall back on if the DM did not want to use a more complex system (keep reading).

And yes, the term "laborer" generally indicates "unskilled laborer" (as opposed to a guildmaster, manager, supervisor, or foreman, which would be the "laborer who directs other laborers" people keep describing), which according to the description of the Profession skill, do not take ranks in Profession and therefore earn 1 sp a day.

For a more evenhanded method of payment for different types of work, there is a handly chart in the DMG on page 105 for what a hireling would earn per day based on their profession (incidentally, a lawyer earns 1 gp a day whereas a laborer earns 1 sp).

IIRC, there are also further breakdowns and descriptions of different careers and what their earnings should be in the DMG II and Cityscape; I don't have the books to hand but I vaguely recall at least one of those charts also showing what skills a person needs for that job, which is sometimes more than just ranks in the Profession skill.

If a PC claims a "Profession" and wants to earn money from it, and the DM wants to use a more realistic system using the above resources as a guide. Cityscape IIRC offers deeper rules for running a business--so for people wanting to be "realistic" about this whole situation, that would be the place to look. If that's not an option, just come up with a system based on Profession skill plus other skills--that Baker with just ranks in Profession: Baker and not in Craft: Bread should earn less than a Baker with ranks in both, because the first Baker is just managing the bakery and needs to pay labor to bake the bread.

[Mewtarthio]

by RAW you can - but then, some profession might actually warrant Alignment Restrictions. Lawyers would be any non-good or non-lawful for example (it´s a common misconception that lawyers are predominantly lawful - they´re most assuredly not).

...:smallannoyed: My father's a lawyer.

[horseboy]

...:smallannoyed: My father's a lawyer.

So does that make you a tiefling?



:smallamused:
Just kidding. Couldn't pass that one up.

[Riffington]

...:smallannoyed: My father's a lawyer.

We're sure your dad is nice and all, it's just that there's a certain number of evil lawyers who give a bad name to the other 10%.

[horseboy]

We're sure your dad is nice and all, it's just that there's a certain number of evil lawyers who give a bad name to the other 10%.
I blame Shakespeare.

[Collin152]

Hmm...

Profession(Odd Jobs)...

Just like animal crossing!
What better way to pay off your extortion-related debts than doing things for people who don't seem to have any jobs? What an economy.

[Mewtarthio]

We're sure your dad is nice and all, it's just that there's a certain number of evil lawyers who give a bad name to the other 10%.

...Heh. Okay, that was pretty clever. :smalltongue:

What? You think I could conceivably live in normal society if I couldn't laugh at lawyer jokes?