3.0 monster progression vs 3.5

[earthseawizard]

In another forum there is a discussion happening about how monsters in 3.0 progressed in a way that was much simpler to DMs to handle. Namely, they got far less skill points (and I believe this was a set amount depending on HD) and far less feats.

Did any 3.0 players find this to be a better system for running games? Why or why not?

[KillianHawkeye]

Personally, I felt the opposite was true.

In 3.0, how many feats and skills a monster got was wildly different depending on their creature type. In 3.5, monsters use the same rules for getting skills and feats that characters use (with their creature type defining their skill points per HD just like a character class does).

[earthseawizard]

Personally, I felt the opposite was true.

In 3.0, how many feats and skills a monster got was wildly different depending on their creature type. In 3.5, monsters use the same rules for getting skills and feats that characters use (with their creature type defining their skill points per HD just like a character class does).

So it seems like while yes there are now a higher number of feats and skill points to consider, a unified mechanic means you're never left guessing, and if you're good at character creation, you'll be just as good at monster creation.

[Tzardok]

So it seems like while yes there are now a higher number of feats and skill points to consider, a unified mechanic means you're never left guessing, and if you're good at character creation, you'll be just as good at monster creation.

Pretty much that, yeah. I've got the MM2 here, and boy, do they have crazy rules for some types in 3.0. Here, take a look:



Type
Skill points
Feats


Aberrations, Elementals
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Animals, Beasts, Vermin
10 to 15
None


Constructs, Oozes, Plants
None
None


Dragons
(6 + Int-Mod) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD


Fey, Undead
(3 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Giants, Humanoids
6 + Int-Mod + EHD
1 + 1/4 EHD


Magical Beasts, Shapechangers
(2 x Int-Score) + EHD
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Monstrous Humanoid
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod.) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD



EHD means Extra Hit Dice, i.e. for improved creatures. Compare that to the much simpler system we have in 3.5, which follows the same rules as character classes do:



Type
Skill points


Aberrations, Animals, Constructs, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, Vermin
(2 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Deathless, Undead
(4 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Dragons, Fey
(6 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)



Feats for all: 1 + 1/3 HD.

Edit: I won't deny that it's sometimes difficult to actually spend all those skill points or feats when brewing my own creatures, but I find it much easier to calculate them.

[Crake]

I won't deny that it's sometimes difficult to actually spend all those skill points or feats when brewing my own creatures, but I find it much easier to calculate them.

I've always found that the easiest way to spend skill points for quickly built characters is just pick a number of skills equal to X+int mod (where X depends on the creature type/class), and just completely max that many number of skills. It's much harder to spend 66 skill points than it is to pick 6 skills to max out.

[Tzardok]

I've always found that the easiest way to spend skill points for quickly built characters is just pick a number of skills equal to X+int mod (where X depends on the creature type/class), and just completely max that many number of skills. It's much harder to spend 66 skill points than it is to pick 6 skills to max out.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing most of the time, but sometimes you get more skills that way than actually fit. For example, recently I made a giant worm with an Int of 3, but it was an outsider so it still got a load of skill points. Enough to max out four skills, but I could only find two skills that actually fit it. And don't get me started on how often I miscounted the number of feats a high HD creature was supposed to get and gave it one too few.

[Maat Mons]

Out of curiosity, were the two skills Escape Artist and Move Silently?

[Tzardok]

For the giant outsider worm? No, it got Climb and Concentrate as additional skills (the first two where Swim and Listen).

[earthseawizard]

Pretty much that, yeah. I've got the MM2 here, and boy, do they have crazy rules for some types in 3.0. Here, take a look:



Type
Skill points
Feats


Aberrations, Elementals
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Animals, Beasts, Vermin
10 to 15
None


Constructs, Oozes, Plants
None
None


Dragons
(6 + Int-Mod) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD


Fey, Undead
(3 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Giants, Humanoids
6 + Int-Mod + EHD
1 + 1/4 EHD


Magical Beasts, Shapechangers
(2 x Int-Score) + EHD
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Monstrous Humanoid
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod.) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD



EHD means Extra Hit Dice, i.e. for improved creatures. Compare that to the much simpler system we have in 3.5, which follows the same rules as character classes do:



Type
Skill points


Aberrations, Animals, Constructs, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, Vermin
(2 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Deathless, Undead
(4 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Dragons, Fey
(6 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)



Feats for all: 1 + 1/3 HD.

Edit: I won't deny that it's sometimes difficult to actually spend all those skill points or feats when brewing my own creatures, but I find it much easier to calculate them.

Thanks, this certainly shows in favor of 3.5 when it comes to the calculations. I suppose the flipside would be in actual play running monsters with 2-3 feats is far simpler than monsters with 10 feats.

[Biggus]

Pretty much that, yeah. I've got the MM2 here, and boy, do they have crazy rules for some types in 3.0. Here, take a look:



Type
Skill points
Feats


Aberrations, Elementals
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Animals, Beasts, Vermin
10 to 15
None


Constructs, Oozes, Plants
None
None


Dragons
(6 + Int-Mod) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD


Fey, Undead
(3 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Giants, Humanoids
6 + Int-Mod + EHD
1 + 1/4 EHD


Magical Beasts, Shapechangers
(2 x Int-Score) + EHD
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Monstrous Humanoid
(2 x Int-Score)+(2 x EHD)
1 + Int-Bonus + 1/4 EHD


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod.) x HD
1 + 1/4 HD



EHD means Extra Hit Dice, i.e. for improved creatures.

Fascinating, thank you for posting this. I always thought they just gave them however many skills they wanted them to have as there was no obvious pattern, it's good to know how they actually did it.




Compare that to the much simpler system we have in 3.5, which follows the same rules as character classes do:



Type
Skill points


Aberrations, Animals, Constructs, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, Vermin
(2 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Deathless, Undead
(4 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Dragons, Fey
(6 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)


Outsiders
(8 + Int-Mod) x (HD + 3)



Feats for all: 1 + 1/3 HD.

Edit: I won't deny that it's sometimes difficult to actually spend all those skill points or feats when brewing my own creatures, but I find it much easier to calculate them.

All correct, except that mindless creatures don't get any feats or skill points (so most constructs and oozes and effectively all vermin).

[Chronos]

If you, as the DM, are having a hard time coming up with enough skills or feats for a monster, don't sweat it. A skill or feat that it never uses is, in practice, no different from one it never has, and nobody's going to be interacting with it in enough detail to tell. Or if, in the extremely rare case that it ever becomes relevant whether it has some skill or not, just decide whether it does or not at that moment. The DM is allowed to retcon occasionally.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suppose the flipside would be in actual play running monsters with 2-3 feats is far simpler than monsters with 10 feats.

This is entirely dependent on what kinds of feats you pick. If you want the monster to be simple, pick basic feats that just add some bonus numbers to their stats, like weapon focus or iron will or whatever.

[Biggus]

This is entirely dependent on what kinds of feats you pick. If you want the monster to be simple, pick basic feats that just add some bonus numbers to their stats, like weapon focus or iron will or whatever.

Those were my thoughts, I've never had difficulty picking feats for monsters unless they have a truly enormous number of hit dice. Far more often I have the opposite problem, not being able to give them all the feats I want them to have.

In case it's of use to anybody, here's my list of "standard feats" which are useful for many different monsters (most don't complicate them in play):

Anybody: Improved Toughness (CW), Improved Initiative, Danger Sense (CAdv), Improved Critical, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Ability Focus, Weapon Focus, Luck feats (CSco),

Casters: Practised Spellcaster (CArc/CDiv), Extend Spell, Quicken Spell

SLA users: Practised Magic (Shackled City), Quicken Spell-like Ability, Supernatural Transformation (SavSp)

Natural Attack users: Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Rapidstrike (Drac), Improved Rapidstrike (Drac)

Bruisers: Steadfast Determination (PHB2, requires Endurance), Power Attack

Grapplers: Multigrab (SavSp), Greater Multigrab (SavSp)

Fliers: Improved Flight (CAdv)

Breath Weapon users: Metabreath feats (Drac)

[Feantar]

3.0s rules were a confusing mess. I can put less feats or skills if I feel like it, but it's much more difficult to determine what they are actually supposed to have with 3.0.

Also, picking skills and feats is easy, as Biggus has shown above.


Yeah, that's what I've been doing most of the time, but sometimes you get more skills that way than actually fit. For example, recently I made a giant worm with an Int of 3, but it was an outsider so it still got a load of skill points. Enough to max out four skills, but I could only find two skills that actually fit it. And don't get me started on how often I miscounted the number of feats a high HD creature was supposed to get and gave it one too few.

This is where Perform (Oratory) comes into. While it devoures the adventurers it speaks gentle soliloquis about the nature of fate. And you also give it Sense Motive to understand if the audience is engaged.