Feedback on Swashbuckler Rogue/Fathomless Warlock multiclass?

[TheBirba]

I am looking for some feedback in relation to level progression for a Swashbuckler Rogue/Fathomless Warlock build.

Our next campaign is set in the Moonshaes, starts at lvl 1 and might reach T4 play. My character is a low-life smuggler with a swagger and a tendency for bravado.

He is going to be the party face, and I would like him to be a bit of a skill monkey; the focus is going to be on Fathomless Warlock, and control via slowing mechanics (tentacle, Slasher, Summon Shadowspawn, etc). I read quite a few topics on the matter and the consensus seems to be 1 Rogue -> 1 Warlock -> 3 Rogue -> X Warlock.

I would take Pact of the Blade at lvl 6 and Slasher at lvl 7, be a normal rogue with a friendly tentacle until lvl 4, when I would then rely on booming blade and become a hit & run skirmisher, I would be a wood half-elf for the 35 ft movement, and use my spells and invocations for social/utility purposes. I would not take Eldritch Blast.

Now I will say that I have played Fathomless Warlock in a couple of one shots and absolutely loved it, so this choice is going to be non-negotiable (e.g. no hexblade). I will also say I have not played a character so reliant in multiclassing before, so I am a bit concerned that the leveling process is going to be a bit of a slog at the beginning and that it won't really pick up at higher levels. 3 levels sounds scary.

For whatever it may be worth, the rest of the party is likely going to be a Bladesinger Wizard, a Crown Paladin, a Drakewarden Ranger and an Arcane Archer Fighter.

TL;DR: Has anyone played this combination before from low levels?

[Sorinth]

Haven't seen this combo in play but one thing to consider for a smoother MC experience would be going V. Human or C. Lineage and taking the Mobile feat, this would allow you to play essentially the same style but only have 1 level of Rogue.

[TheBirba]

Haven't seen this combo in play but one thing to consider for a smoother MC experience would be going V. Human or C. Lineage and taking the Mobile feat, this would allow you to play essentially the same style but only have 1 level of Rogue.

Maybe, but that would make it impossible to start with both a 17 (for Slasher) and a 16 in Charisma. But yeah the Mobile feat would take the need for both Wood Elf and Rogue 3 away.

I feel like those options are too power game-y, so I tend to never chose them.

[CTurbo]

Vhuman with Mobile to start.

Bard 2/Warlock X

You'd be a better face and skill monkey while also adding in more cantrips and spell slots. Still have 2 Expertise skills, but now have Jack of All Trades too.

Maybe later down the road you add a 3rd Bard level if one of the subclasses has something you think would be fitting for your character. Lore and Whispers come to mind.

[Sorinth]

Maybe, but that would make it impossible to start with both a 17 (for Slasher) and a 16 in Charisma. But yeah the Mobile feat would take the need for both Wood Elf and Rogue 3 away.

I feel like those options are too power game-y, so I tend to never chose them.

I mean given we are talking taking Mobile as the feat it's not all that power game-y.

With your current build plan of Rogue 1 -> Warlock 1 -> Rogue 3 -> Warlock X you are only getting Slasher and that 18 Dex at level 7
With say V. Human and going Rogue 1 -> Warlock X you are getting Slasher at level 5, and your 18 Dex at level 9 (Possibly with a half-feat like Skill Expert to give even more expertise). So your build is coming online 2 levels earlier even though the 18 Dex is 2 levels later.


As CTurbo suggests Bard could also be interesting but you need level 3 for expertise, Swords in particular with the push effect would be fitting both thematically and mechanically.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vhuman with Mobile to start.

Bard 2/Warlock X

You'd be a better face and skill monkey while also adding in more cantrips and spell slots. Still have 2 Expertise skills, but now have Jack of All Trades too.

Maybe later down the road you add a 3rd Bard level if one of the subclasses has something you think would be fitting for your character. Lore and Whispers come to mind. He wants to be a rogue. Bard doesn't get sneak attack the way that a swashbuckler does. (Yes, that 3rd level in bard, lore, would be a good call if one goes Bardlock).

My suggestion to the OP:
vHuman, mobile feat.
1. Rogue 1: need the skills.
2. Warlock 1: Need the tentacle, swimming, water breathing
3. Rogue 2 (to get cunning action)
4. Rogue 3. Swashbuckler.
5. Warlock 2: Second spell slot and two invocations. Increases flexibility
6. Rogue 4: feat
7. Rogue 5: uncanny dodge. Damage reduction is your friend.

Decide from there where to go. The second level spells at this point may be needed, although you have a wizard in the group already.

[TheBirba]

I mean given we are talking taking Mobile as the feat it's not all that power game-y.

With your current build plan of Rogue 1 -> Warlock 1 -> Rogue 3 -> Warlock X you are only getting Slasher and that 18 Dex at level 7
With say V. Human and going Rogue 1 -> Warlock X you are getting Slasher at level 5, and your 18 Dex at level 9 (Possibly with a half-feat like Skill Expert to give even more expertise). So your build is coming online 2 levels earlier even though the 18 Dex is 2 levels later.


As CTurbo suggests Bard could also be interesting but you need level 3 for expertise, Swords in particular with the push effect would be fitting both thematically and mechanically.

Those are all great suggestions, thanks.

[CTurbo]

I keep thinking Bard's get Expertise at 2, but yeah it's 3.

I still think 2 or 3 levels of Bard gives a Warlock more than what Rogue would give.

[Theodoxus]

I keep thinking Bard's get Expertise at 2, but yeah it's 3.

I still think 2 or 3 levels of Bard gives a Warlock more than what Rogue would give.

I agree, unless the whole point of Rogue is sneak attack more than skills.

Then again, why swashbuckler, unless it's the charisma bennies.

So, the two subclasses seem a little anti-synergistic. Swashbucklers don't need a partner to SA a solo opponent. The tentacle provides a SA partner (though I suppose if the Rogue isn't 1v1, the little guy will help in that case). Using BB also complicates the need for the tentacle, as you'd need to both move away from your victim, and move the tentacle away as well.

BB also is anti-synergistic with swashbucklers, as their native ability to strike and run is best when used making multiple attacks (to have as many opportunities to make a SA). Since cantrips use the casting action, you can't make a BA offhand attack, so that limits them. Also, if you're going Pact of the Blade and Thirsting, BB becomes even more anti-synergistic - though obviously, TB isn't mandatory in such a build...

So, if the ask is 'how do I make these two classes that have some anti-synergy going on, be more optimal', I think just being cognizant of the potential traps is sufficient. You've already decided that EB is off the table. Not a bad plan, especially if you're going the vhuman/CL route and grabbing Mobile at1st level. Being able to close the distance at the start of combat is going to be important, instead of using EB spam to soften your target as you mosey up to them. (Going Tabaxi would provide a similar benefit, granting 60' of speed that first round without needing extra resources.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Then again, why swashbuckler, unless it's the charisma bennies. Pirate/maritime theme. Fathomless and Swashbuckler are maritime themed choices. (Swim speed, underwater breathing).


Swashbucklers don't need a partner to SA a solo opponent. The tentacle provides a SA partner (though I suppose if the Rogue isn't 1v1, the little guy will help in that case). Yes to both.

BB is a good choice since you don't always need to get the tentacle, and sometimes you need to hit and run.

[Theodoxus]

there's really nothing other than the name that makes swashbuckler 'maritime themed'. None of their specific abilities scream 'I'm on a boat!', in fact, being able to safely move away from your opponent isn't all that great in a ship-based hand to hand combat, as you'll be jostling around with others. Those kinds of fights very rarely have 10+ feet of space between opponents...

[KorvinStarmast]

there's really nothing other than the name that makes swashbuckler 'maritime themed'. None of their specific abilities scream 'I'm on a boat!', in fact, being able to safely move away from your opponent isn't all that great in a ship-based hand to hand combat, as you'll be jostling around with others. Those kinds of fights very rarely have 10+ feet of space between opponents... Errol Flynn called, and he'd like a quiet word ... because Captain Blood is not pleased. :smallcool:

[Theodoxus]

Errol Flynn called, and he'd like a quiet word ... because Captain Blood is not pleased. :smallcool:

I mean... did Captain Blood have Rakish Audacity and sneak attack a solo opponent?

[TheBirba]

I agree, unless the whole point of Rogue is sneak attack more than skills.

The point is flavour, it's just a fantasy I'm trying to fulfill.


So, the two subclasses seem a little anti-synergistic. Swashbucklers don't need a partner to SA a solo opponent. The tentacle provides a SA partner (though I suppose if the Rogue isn't 1v1, the little guy will help in that case). Using BB also complicates the need for the tentacle, as you'd need to both move away from your victim, and move the tentacle away as well.

The tentacle is not a creature, it does not even occupy space technically, so it can't count as a SA partner. It also has a 10 ft reach.


BB also is anti-synergistic with swashbucklers, as their native ability to strike and run is best when used making multiple attacks (to have as many opportunities to make a SA). Since cantrips use the casting action, you can't make a BA offhand attack, so that limits them. Also, if you're going Pact of the Blade and Thirsting, BB becomes even more anti-synergistic - though obviously, TB isn't mandatory in such a build...

The whole idea of the build is to use BB, the tentacle and the Slasher feat in synergy. You move in, BB, move out; assuming you hit the enemy must chase you -if melee - or take extra damage, and if it does it can't reach you anyway since it's slowed down. I would not call that anti-synergistic.


So, if the ask is 'how do I make these two classes that have some anti-synergy going on, be more optimal'


I'm not asking if it would be optimal, I'm asking for feedback from someone who played it - sadly it appears no one has.

[Theodoxus]

The point is flavour, it's just a fantasy I'm trying to fulfill.

Ok. I just don't see what Rogue in general is doing for your fantasy outside of the name of the subclass being called swashbuckler...




The tentacle is not a creature, it does not even occupy space technically, so it can't count as a SA partner. It also has a 10 ft reach.

Right, so it's a differently affected Spiritual Weapon, usable at 1st level, with a small slowing rider and slightly better movement... that uses your BA... so again, anti-synergistic with what you're wanting to accomplish with making as many attacks to trigger sneak as a swashbuckler.



The whole idea of the build is to use BB, the tentacle and the Slasher feat in synergy. You move in, BB, move out; assuming you hit the enemy must chase you -if melee - or take extra damage, and if it does it can't reach you anyway since it's slowed down. I would not call that anti-synergistic.

Except if you miss with the BB, you can't use a BA to try to land at least a sneak attack. Rakish Audacity at least still lets you move away from your target - and hopefully your tentacle has still hit and slowed them so you don't get run up on. At this point, I'd say Scout or Mastermind would be the better option...




I'm not asking if it would be optimal, I'm asking for feedback from someone who played it - sadly it appears no one has.

Well, couple of things could be causing that. Someone who has played it, might not have stumbled on your post yet. Or, it's definitely possible no has tried this apparently unique combination. That's kinda cool though. Let us know if it executes better than it would appear to on paper.

[CTurbo]

There is a lot of synergy with Swashbuckler and Booming Blade which is why I highly recommend a single level of Sorcerer for any Swashbuckler, or 1-3 levels of Warlock on a Swashbuckler works too.

I DON'T think 1-3 levels of Rogue is worth it for a Sorcerer or Warlock however.

2-3 levels of Sorcerer is a great dip on a Warlock though. Take Mobile and you can quicken Booming Blade on two different enemies as long as they're in your reach.

Swords Bard gets you medium armor which may not be THAT great, but opens up more options, and you can use your Inspiration dice for your Blade Flourishes without having to use your Bonus Action to do so. Mobile Flourish in particular can push the target away from you 5-10ft which is nice. The forced movement doesn't trigger the Booming Blade's extra damage, but it does get the target further away from you making it even more likely to need to move on it's turn. Valor Bard gets you a shield which is great, and you can use your Inspiration dice with your reaction to add a boost to your AC again keeping your Bonus Action free for your tentacle.

[Theodoxus]

Personally, I think you'd get more mileage out of a Tempest Cleric/Fathomless Warlock MC. Go warhammer with the Crusher feat, auto-knocking your BB target every time on a hit. No need for Mobile or Fancy Footwork. (That Destructive Wrath is highly synergistic with BB is just a bonus.)

Tempest has the same naming convention that evokes ships and ship combat; summoning imagery of calling down lightning onto ship masts or blowing holes out of the sides with skittering electricity... Umberlee or Poseidon would be a great god, having the right kind of minions that would make a Fathomless pact as well.

[JLandan]

A couple of points:
Swashbuckler is not limited to pirate theme, it also covers musketeer or renaissance themes.
Booming Blade can be re-flavored from generic thunder damage to something like crashing waves or cannon fire to better fit the theme.
Also Booming Blade is only triggered by willing movement.

[Theodoxus]

Also Booming Blade is only triggered by willing movement.

I don't know if this was a generic note, or directed at me, but I'll clarify:

Using Crusher with BB is to allow the initiator to move away from the victim without provoking an OA, and without the need for Mobile, Fancy Footwork, Disengage, etc. Crusher doesn't trigger the BB rider, it pushes the victim outside of a 5' reach. So even if the tentacle doesn't hit (thus not slowing the victim) you can still move 30' from your position and end up 35' from the victim, staying safely outside of a move and attack of a standard humanoid - and obviously triggering the rider when they voluntarily move to re-engage.

[Psyren]

I keep thinking Bard's get Expertise at 2, but yeah it's 3.

The new Bard gets it at 2, that might be what threw you off?


I still think 2 or 3 levels of Bard gives a Warlock more than what Rogue would give.

Definitely agreed, especially since OP already wants to go for Blade Pact.