Speaking of... a Druid with less spellcasting and more wildshaping

[Arkhios]

So, this concept came up before in a discussion elsewhere, and I wanted to discuss it a little further.

From my part, the basis of the idea came from the ground-work my wife and I were doing for her "cognitively more accessible" version of the game, which is meant to be run for people with cognitive disabilities at her workplace (my respects to her for doing this!)

Now, to be entirely honest, the game does have too many spellcasting classes already, even disregarding the cognitive capabilities of players. Druid is one potential class to be adjusted in this regard.

What is the key ability that makes a druid a druid? Currently, I would say Wild Shape. It's a feature no other class has. Spellcasting while wild-shaping is already a bit of chore, so why don't we just ditch it altogether, and focus on the wild shapes.

How to make Wild Shapes more interesting? What we did, is to make the chosen form matter a bit more. Our approach was to make different forms borrow from other classes' abilites.

For example, a Bear is a ferocious and intimidating creature, and we decided to give the bear a bonus to their damage (for now, a simple +2, but it could get better over time) similar to barbarian rage or the Dueling Fighting Style, and some benefits towards intimidation. It's still open in the air, whether the bear form would get the damage resistance of a barbarian rage, at all, or at later levels.

A wolf is the most cunning hunter of the wildlife, the quintessential pack-tactician. What is the pact tactics, at its' core? Making the hunt easier for your companions. So, Wolf form would be given a way to give advantage to their companions to bring down their prey. Also, because studies show that wolves are highly intelligent creatures, they should benefit from that somehow. A personal long-time favorite is to rename the spell Fox's Cunning as Wolf's Cunning instead, but that's neither here nor there, in this concept. But this could lend itself to the wolf form granting a benefit for intelligence related things (e.g. saving throws, ability checks).

Cats are, as we all know, a pain in the arse (and we love them for it), with their sharp claws, quick reflexes, and the ability to hide (gosh, I can't even count how many times I've tried to find mine when we needed to go to the vet, or how many cuts I got after I caught them). Cat form would, therefore, be given some form of sneak attack or the like, and a benefit to be more stealthy than others.
Cats are nocturnal hunters, of course, so they could get darkvision as well, if the druid didn't already have it.

As cats, Owls are nocturnal hunters as well. But they can fly. However, since Owl form would given the ability to fly, they probably won't be as deadly in lengthy combat as other forms, so this form is probably better as an Out of Combat form. Might still have some ability to use their claws if need be, but it wouldn't be their primary role. Owl form would then have other uses in addition to fly around like a kite. Owls have the most insane eyesight and hearing, and therefore, they should definitely get something to benefit Perception, right?

What other boosts can you think of, for these as well as other animal forms?

[Aimeryan]

Putting combat wildshape on a separate chassis is pretty much the solution to all things combat wildshape related. On a full spellcaster it is either too weak to be used (D&D One) or it adds to much to the power of a full spellcaster while still itself being hamstrung (5e).

Instead, put it on a new class without spellcasting (eh, possibly a 1/third caster like an Arcane Trickster), maximise the variety and power of wildshaping without the natural druid inclinations (so Beasts, Aberations, Monstrosities, Dragons, etc.). Be a melee martial who is adaptable rather than set in specific routines. That would be far more interesting to me.

[Amnestic]

For my casterless wildshaper I slotted a modified moon druid as a monk subclass (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/o51kTQm40Nnh) with a few changes. It seemed simpler than generating an entire new "Wild Shape" class, though if I did want to I'd probably be looking at Pathfinder's version (here/ (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/shifter/)) and taking cues from that.

[Emongnome777]

Check out this (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/421499/Druids-Secrets-of-the-Primal-Circle) 3rd party product. The dire druid is a half-caster that focuses extensively on wild shape (though it may be a new mechanic / called something different). My brother has a physical copy and I've looked through it a few times. It seems like fun, but I no playtesting experience with it. There are tons of subclasses which each represent a type of animal to shapeshift into (feline, bear, elk, bird, etc.).

[JonBeowulf]

First off, I love the idea and the reasoning behind it.

I was going to recommend basing the specials for the shapechange forms off the lycanthropes in the MM (since you went with bear, wolf, and cat) but I took a look at them and they kinda suck for PC abilities. I really expected more, but oh well.

Are you planning to keep it a discreet list of a few forms or keeping it open to all beasts? Obviously, a short list makes it a lot easier to play while a long list increases flexibility. You've got a damage brute (from Dueling fighting style), an attack booster (buffed Commander's Strike), an ambusher (rogue-ish), a flying spy (maybe add the +5 bonus from the Observant feat)... the only other things I can think of is a small critter for snooping around and gathering information (some kind of were-hamster) and something with a burrowing speed.

[Arkhios]

First off, I love the idea and the reasoning behind it.

I was going to recommend basing the specials for the shapechange forms off the lycanthropes in the MM (since you went with bear, wolf, and cat) but I took a look at them and they kinda suck for PC abilities. I really expected more, but oh well.

Are you planning to keep it a discreet list of a few forms or keeping it open to all beasts? Obviously, a short list makes it a lot easier to play while a long list increases flexibility. You've got a damage brute (from Dueling fighting style), an attack booster (buffed Commander's Strike), an ambusher (rogue-ish), a flying spy (maybe add the +5 bonus from the Observant feat)... the only other things I can think of is a small critter for snooping around and gathering information (some kind of were-hamster) and something with a burrowing speed.

Oh, right, we did come up with a total of six forms, and one of the remaining two was indeed a mouse, or some sort of small rodent, that would be small and incospicuous enough to scout almost everywhere and a bass, or some sort of small fish, to scout underwater.

+5 to Perception could work for the owl, certainly.
A burrower could be either a common vole or a badger, if we want a bigger and more deadly burrower.

As for the list of options, I think it would be better, if the list starts narrow and expands as the character progesses.

[JNAProductions]

I've taken a stab at this concept (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599959-Shapeshifter-Class). Twice (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646504-Shapeshifter-Mk-II-Shape-Harder).

There's a whole Homebrew Compendium (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) with quite a few Shapeshifter classes, and probably some other classes along that vein.

[Amnestic]

In the interest of sharing, I've now made my own Shifter class, partially based off the PF1e class I linked before, but also not.

Link (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/UCUfKmBdAb5o)

Five subclasses - Beast (Closest to 'Wildshape'), dragon, griffon, manticore, and Therian (weretouched, with half-caster druidic pact magic casting).

D12 hit dice and mostly unarmoured puts it alongside Barbarian in initial vibes, though they diverge pretty quickly.

[GeneralVryth]

I have mentioned it a few times in the past but I still think the Druid would benefit from being re-designed to being much closer to the Warlock mechanically. A short rest caster, designed to be more at-will than normal casters, and a secondary major customization method are all things that would have helped cater to a larger variety of Druids.

The issue Druids always had with being a shifter class is there was never enough left from their power budget for their to be interesting choices around shapeshifting, while also retaining the nature magic feel. The Warlock class actually does a pretty good job of being a flexible near full caster that is capable of several different styles, it just suffers from rest issue that a few classes do that is more symptomatic of the rest system itself than an issue with the class.

[GooeyChewie]

I have mentioned it a few times in the past but I still think the Druid would benefit from being re-designed to being much closer to the Warlock mechanically. A short rest caster, designed to be more at-will than normal casters, and a secondary major customization method are all things that would have helped cater to a larger variety of Druids.

That makes a ton of sense. Then Druid players could choose to focus more or less on Wild Shape through what invocations they choose, rather than having one “combat Wild Shape” subclass while the others either ignore it or transform it into something else entirely.

[Theodoxus]

I just think the Cleric domains should be renamed into evocative subclass titles. Keep the domains themselves, as integral to the gods that grant them. In this respect, Nature Clerics would be called Druids. (Keeping heavy armor or not, doesn't matter to my personal esthetic for the Druid subclass.)

Druids (the 2014 class) could then be completely reworked, probably as a half-caster, taking the same niche as the artificer, only with plants, animals, and wildshape instead of crafting and arms/armor/defender/alchemy.

I haven't come up with new evocate subclass titles for the other domains... haven't really thought about it, tbh. So, if anyone feels like throwing out some names, that'd be awesome :smallbiggrin:

[GooeyChewie]

I haven't come up with new evocate subclass titles for the other domains... haven't really thought about it, tbh. So, if anyone feels like throwing out some names, that'd be awesome :smallbiggrin:

Just looking at the original subclasses:

Knowledge -> Scholar
Life -> Priest
Light -> Theurge
Nature -> Druid
Tempest -> Shaman
Trickery -> Soothsayer
War -> Chaplain
Death -> Bokor

[Theodoxus]

Just looking at the original subclasses:

Knowledge -> Scholar
Life -> Priest
Light -> Theurge
Nature -> Druid
Tempest -> Shaman
Trickery -> Soothsayer
War -> Chaplain
Death -> Bokor

Nice! thank you for that :)

[GeneralVryth]

I just think the Cleric domains should be renamed into evocative subclass titles. Keep the domains themselves, as integral to the gods that grant them. In this respect, Nature Clerics would be called Druids. (Keeping heavy armor or not, doesn't matter to my personal esthetic for the Druid subclass.)

Druids (the 2014 class) could then be completely reworked, probably as a half-caster, taking the same niche as the artificer, only with plants, animals, and wildshape instead of crafting and arms/armor/defender/alchemy.

I haven't come up with new evocate subclass titles for the other domains... haven't really thought about it, tbh. So, if anyone feels like throwing out some names, that'd be awesome :smallbiggrin:

That's just getting rid of the Druid class, assuming the mechanical key pieces of a Druid are spellcaster plus animal based shapeshifter.


That makes a ton of sense. Then Druid players could choose to focus more or less on Wild Shape through what invocations they choose, rather than having one “combat Wild Shape” subclass while the others either ignore it or transform it into something else entirely.

That's the idea. It also has another nice side bonus in that more short rest based classes helps reduce short rest issues (since more characters will place a larger value on them), also it reduces the number of traditional full casters creating more variety in general. The Druids spell list in general also naturally fits a short rest caster, they have so many concentration spells that are solid (and by extension relatively few non-concentration spells) that don't need to cast nearly as many spells as a traditional full caster to be effective. In fact if you were to give them some Eldritch Blast counterpart you would probably need to weak their spell list (you may still need to without it).

The pact boon aspect also fits in quite nicely. Another aspect of Druids from 3.5 was their animal companion. You could have a pact boon equivalent choice of either being a better wild shaper, a better spell caster, or having some kind of animal companion.

[Theodoxus]

Just looking at the original subclasses:

Knowledge -> Scholar
Life -> Priest
Light -> Theurge
Nature -> Druid
Tempest -> Shaman
Trickery -> Soothsayer
War -> Chaplain
Death -> Bokor

Adding:
Arcane -> Magus
Grave -> Doctor
Forge -> Divine Smith
Order/Peace -> Minister



That's just getting rid of the Druid class, assuming the mechanical key pieces of a Druid are spellcaster plus animal based shapeshifter.

No, it's changing the Druid class into a half-caster and empowering wildshape. Like the Artificer is changing the Wizard class into a half-caster and empowering the crafting of magic items.

[sambojin]

The DnDOne version "sort of" does this, but I'm not sure if it's any easier than any other version of Druids. Their lvl5 class ability let's them trade in spell slots for more wildshape charges, and even by lvl5, that's a lot (even if you just trade away half your casting potential). Cognitive problems would probably go up to most players/ DMs with the weird spell slot/ wildshape pool this can give you.

For a suggestion, I'd just reskin a Totem Barb into a Druid, and give them one spell slot every two levels. So 1lvl1 slot at character lvl1, 1lvl2 at lvl3, 1lvl3 at lvl5, etc. And a couple known at each slot lvl. Barbs are notoriously underpowered anyway, so a bit of magic isn't going to hurt the balance much. Give them Guidance to start, so they feel mystical and wise and helpy. You choose the spells for your player, but you can change them if they want to do other awesome stuff.

So you get "beast form"/ Rage, and a bit of magic. Even let them change their totem each day if you'd like, so they're good at doing different stuff. Maybe start with Goodberry/ Jump, then Enhance Ability/ Summon Beast, then Plant Growth/ Tidal wave.

The player can choose if they're doing druidy things, or magic combatty things, or beast raging. Might work.

(Or do what you were going to do, that would work too)

[sambojin]

The DnDOne version "sort of" does this, but I'm not sure if it's any easier than any other version of Druids. Their lvl5 class ability let's them trade in spell slots for more wildshape charges, and even by lvl5, that's a lot (even if you just trade away half your casting potential). Cognitive problems would probably go up to most players/ DMs with the weird spell slot/ wildshape pool this can give you.

For a suggestion, I'd just reskin a Totem Barb into a Druid, and give them one spell slot every two levels. So 1lvl1 slot at character lvl1, 1lvl2 at lvl3, 1lvl3 at lvl5, etc. And a couple of known spells at each slot lvl. Barbs are notoriously underpowered anyway, so a bit of magic isn't going to hurt the balance much. Give them Guidance to start, so they feel mystical and wise and helpy. You choose the spells for your player, but you can change them if they want to do other awesome stuff.

So you get "beast form"/ Rage, and a bit of magic. Even let them change their totem each day if you'd like, so they're good at doing different stuff. Maybe start with Goodberry/ Jump, then Enhance Ability/ Summon Beast, then Plant Growth/ Tidal wave.

The player can choose if they're doing druidy things, or magic combatty things, or beast raging. Might work.

(Or do what you were going to do, that would work too)

[Arkhios]

The DnDOne version "sort of" does this, but I'm not sure if it's any easier than any other version of Druids. Their lvl5 class ability let's them trade in spell slots for more wildshape charges, and even by lvl5, that's a lot (even if you just trade away half your casting potential). Cognitive problems would probably go up to most players/ DMs with the weird spell slot/ wildshape pool this can give you.

For a suggestion, I'd just reskin a Totem Barb into a Druid, and give them one spell slot every two levels. So 1lvl1 slot at character lvl1, 1lvl2 at lvl3, 1lvl3 at lvl5, etc. And a couple of known spells at each slot lvl. Barbs are notoriously underpowered anyway, so a bit of magic isn't going to hurt the balance much. Give them Guidance to start, so they feel mystical and wise and helpy. You choose the spells for your player, but you can change them if they want to do other awesome stuff.

So you get "beast form"/ Rage, and a bit of magic. Even let them change their totem each day if you'd like, so they're good at doing different stuff. Maybe start with Goodberry/ Jump, then Enhance Ability/ Summon Beast, then Plant Growth/ Tidal wave.

The player can choose if they're doing druidy things, or magic combatty things, or beast raging. Might work.

(Or do what you were going to do, that would work too)

At this point, when the game is already going on (2nd session was last thursday), for this particular group it is as was mentioned in OP. One part of the whole is that the spellcasters won't have spell slots at all, but as a trade-off can cast their spells at-will. For now, the only spells they have are from cantrips to 2nd level, and each spellcasting class (which the druid is not) is able to pick three, in total, to keep things simple enough. And the game has only very limited selection of spells, for now at least. Maybe if they advance to higher levels, and the need arises, there might be more to choose from.

[Kane0]

1) Switch the druids casting over to the pact magic model
2) Add invocations that bolster wildshape in different ways
3) ???
4) Profit

[Arkhios]

1) Switch the druids casting over to the pact magic model
2) Add invocations that bolster wildshape in different ways
3) ???
4) Profit

That'd be interesting, for sure!

[GeneralVryth]

1) Switch the druids casting over to the pact magic model
2) Add invocations that bolster wildshape in different ways
3) ???
4) Profit


That'd be interesting, for sure!

Since I am a very common proponent of this, below is an initial attempt. I used the latest playtest Druid, and a variation of a proposal I made for the Warlock (making it something between a half and full caster depending on invocation use) as the starting points. There obviously needs to be more gifts, specifically building out the companion tree, but more for Old Knowledge and general use as well. The Moon subclass would also need to be completely rebuilt, and any other subclass feature that assumes the presence of Wild Shape would need to be changed.



Druid
Prof. Spells Spell Slot
Level Bonus Class Features Gifts Cantrips Prepared Slots Level
1 +2 Natural Connection, Primal Magic 1 2 2 1 1
2 +2 Nature's Gifts, Natural Recovery 3 2 3 2 1
3 +2 Druid Subclass 3 2 4 2 2
4 +2 Ability Score Improvement 3 3 5 2 2
5 +3 — 5 3 6 3 2
6 +3 Subclass Feature 5 3 7 3 2
7 +3 — 6 3 8 3 3
8 +3 Ability Score Improvement 6 3 9 3 3
9 +4 Contact Patron 7 3 10 4 3
10 +4 Subclass Feature 7 4 10 4 3
11 +4 - 8 4 11 4 4
12 +4 Ability Score Improvement 8 4 11 4 4
13 +5 Greater Magic (1st) 9 4 12 5 4
14 +5 Subclass Feature 9 4 12 5 4
15 +5 - 10 4 13 5 5
16 +5 Ability Score Improvement 10 4 13 5 5
17 +6 Greater Magic (2nd) 10 4 14 6 5
18 +6 Legendary Invocation 11 4 14 6 5
19 +6 Ability Score Improvement 11 4 15 6 5
20 +6 Archdruid 11 4 15 6 5

Natural Connection:
Select one of the following Gifs from the Nature's Gifts list:
Wild Companion
Wild Shape
Old Knowledge

Primal Magic:
[Basically Pact magic with a Druid spell list and Wis casting stat]

Natural Recovery:
As an action the Druid can regain any used Primal Magic spell slots. Once you use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.

Greater Magic:
Select of a spell from a level according to the following table:
Level Spell Level
<10 N/A
11-13 Up to 6th
14-16 Up to 7th
17+ Up to 8th
You can cast the chosen spell once and you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.

Level 17, select a second spell according to the original table.

Grand Gift:
You may choose a gift with the Grand Gift prerequisite. You may only have 1 gift with such a prerequisite.

Archdruid:
[insert some bonus additional bonus here, likely some form of spell recovery, a buff to Natural recovery or a removal of a limitation that gets added]
Longevity. The primal magic that you wield causes you to age more slowly. For every 10 years that pass, your body ages only 1 year.



Nature's Gifts:

Wild Companion:
You can summon a nature spirit that assumes an animal form to aid you. As a Magic action, once per day you can cast the Find Familiar spell without material components, the spell can be recast by expending a spell slot if needed.
When you cast the spell in this way, the familiar is a Fey.

Wild Shape:
The power of nature infuses you, allowing you to assume the form of an animal. As a Bonus Action, you transform into a Beast form that you have learned for this feature (see “Known Forms” below). You stay in that form for a number of hours equal to half your Druid level or until you use Wild Shape again, have the Incapacitated condition, or die. You can also leave the form early as a Bonus Action.
Known Forms. You know a number of forms for this feature equal your wisdom modifier (minimum 1), chosen from among Beast stat blocks in the Player’s Handbook that have a maximum Challenge Rating of 1/4 and that lack a Fly Speed. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can replace one of your known forms with another eligible form.
Number of Uses. You can use Wild Shape twice. You regain one expended use when you finish a Short Rest, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a Long Rest.

Rules While Transformed. While in a form, you retain your personality, memories, and ability to speak, and the following rules apply:
Game Statistics. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the Beast, but you retain your Hit Points; Hit Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Temporary Hit Points. When you assume a Wild Shape form, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Druid level.
No Spellcasting. You can’t cast spells, but transforming doesn’t break your Concentration on a spell you’ve already cast or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as the Call Lightning spell, that you’ve already cast.
Objects. Your ability to handle objects is determined by the form’s limbs rather than your own. In addition, you choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment based on the creature’s size and shape. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.

Old Knowledge:
At the end of a logn rest choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. You have these spells prepared until you next complete a long rest.
Spell Slot. You gain a level 1 spell slot. Once you expend it, you can’t gain another slot from this feature until you finish a Long Rest.
Ritual Caster. You can cast any spell as a Ritual if that spell has the Ritual tag and the spell is prepard.

Natural Concentration:
Prerequisite: Old Knowledge
You have Advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain Concentration on a spell.

Skin of the Oak:
Prerequisite: Level 3+ Druid
You always have the Barkskin spell prepared and can cast it for free once per long rest (it's spell level equals your Primal Magic slot level).

Commune With Nature:
Prerequisite: Level 9+ Druid
You are an expression of nature itself and can commune with the natural world all around you; you always have the Commune with Nature spell prepared and can cast it for free once per long rest.

Elemental Fury:
Prerequisite: Level 5+ Druid
Potent Spellcasting. You add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Druid cantrip.

Nature's Reach:
Prerequisite: Level 9+ Druid, Elemental Fury
Potent Spellcasting. When you cast a Druid cantrip with a range of 10 feet or greater, the spell’s range increases by 300 feet.

Shape of the Guardian:
Prerequisite: Level 3+ Druid, Wild Shape
You have gained greater mastery over your ability to wild shape and you gain the following benefits:
Challenge Rating. The maximum Challenge Rating for your chosen forms is now 1.
Armor Class. Your AC equals 12 plus your Wisdom modifier until you leave the form.
Temporary Hit Points. You gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to two times your Druid level.

Master of Many Shapes:
Prerequisite: Level 3+ Druid, Wild Shape
You can more easily change shape and learn additional forms to change in to.
Known Forms. Your number of known forms increases by 2.
Number of Uses. You can use Wild Shape 2 additional times.
You may expend Primal Magic spell slot to regain a Wild Shape use.

Shape of the Predator:
Prerequisite: Level 6+ Druid, Shape of the Guardian
You have gained greater mastery over your ability to wild shape and you gain the following benefits:
Challenge Rating. The maximum Challenge Rating for your chosen forms is now 2.
Armor Class. Your AC equals 13 plus your Wisdom modifier until you leave the form.
Temporary Hit Points. You gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to three times your Druid level.

Shape of the Moon:
Prerequisite: Level 6+ Druid, Shape of the Guardian
While in a Wild Shape form, you gain the following benefit:
Lunar Radiance. Each of your attacks in a Wild Shape form can deal its normal damage type or Radiant damage. You make this choice each time you hit with those attacks.

Shape of the Oak:
Prerequisite: Level 6+ Druid, Shape of the Guardian
While in a Wild Shape form, you gain the following benefit:
Increased Toughness. You can add your Wisdom modifier to your Constitution saving throws.

Shape of the Avian:
Prerequisite: Level 8+ Druid, Wild Shape
You may now know Wild Shape forms with a fly speed.

Shape of Nature:
Prerequisite: Level 9+ Druid, Shape of the Predator
You have gained greater mastery over your ability to wild shape and you gain the following benefits:
Challenge Rating. The maximum Challenge Rating for the form equals your Druid level divided by 3 (round down).
Armor Class. Your AC equals 14 plus your Wisdom modifier until you leave the form.
Primal Strike. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with an attack roll using a Beast form’s attack in Wild Shape, you can cause the target to take an extra 1d8 Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage (choose when you hit).

Beast Spells:
Prerequisite: Level 18+ Druid, Wild Shape
While using Wild Shape, you can cast spells in Beast form, except for any spell that has a Material component with a cost specified or that consumes its Material component.

Empowered Shapes:
Prerequisite: Grand Gift, Shape of Nature, Shape of the Moon
The power of the moon suffuses you, granting you the following benefits:
Improved Lunar Radiance. Each of your attacks in a Wild Shape form deals an extra 1d10 Radiant damage on a hit.
Armor Class. Your AC equals 15 plus your Wisdom modifier until you leave the form.

Additional Greater Magic
Prerequisite: Level 11+ Druid, Old Knowledge
Choose a spell accoridng to the table in the Greater Magic feature. You can cast the chosen spell once and you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.

Grand Magic
Prerequisite: Grand Gift, Additional Greater Magic
Choose a 9th level spell on the Druid list. You can cast the chosen spell once and you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.

[Psyren]

Invocation Pact Druid would indeed be very interesting! Using natural weapons as the filler attack in place of EB.

Another approach would be to take Beast Barbarian as a base and add a few more optional forms, like Wings/Talons, Gills/Tentacles, and a Spit/Breath for range that is Str or Con-based.

[Arkhios]

At this point, I'm fairly positive that whenever I have the time, I will attempt to adjust the current druid chassis with Pact Magic and Invocations, reducing druid's spellcasting and emphasizing wild shape further.

[Psyren]

In order for this "Pact Druid" (needs a name... Primalist?) to work, it needs a filler cantrip similar to Eldritch Blast to conserve its Pact Slots. I would nominate Primal Savagery for that; since it already scales innately, I would then (a) give them Extra Attack + an ability to replace one of those attacks with a casting of PS, and (b) an Invocation that lets them add either Wis, Dex, or Str mod to the damage depending on how the class is designed. It could also replace one of its wild shape attacks with a use of this Primal Savagery casting as well, which would help fix the scaling issues that the Moon Druid failed to as well.

[GeneralVryth]

In order for this "Pact Druid" (needs a name... Primalist?) to work, it needs a filler cantrip similar to Eldritch Blast to conserve its Pact Slots. I would nominate Primal Savagery for that; since it already scales innately, I would then (a) give them Extra Attack + an ability to replace one of those attacks with a casting of PS, and (b) an Invocation that lets them add either Wis, Dex, or Str mod to the damage depending on how the class is designed. It could also replace one of its wild shape attacks with a use of this Primal Savagery casting as well, which would help fix the scaling issues that the Moon Druid failed to as well.

I think the beauty of converting Druids to a Pact-like system. Is they don't need an Eldritch Blast like cantrip (and there is a reason I didn't add one in my above prototype). Druids more than any other caster have a larger collection of re-cast spells that can be used over the course of a combat (Moonbeam, Call Lightning, Sunbeam, the Investures). Leaning in to those instead of an Eldritch Blast substitute, helps give the Pact-like Druid its own mechanical flavor.

[Kane0]

In order for this "Pact Druid" (needs a name... Primalist?) to work, it needs a filler cantrip similar to Eldritch Blast to conserve its Pact Slots.


No it doesnt. Give them a basic natural attack that wildshape/pact boons/invocations/spells can boost and modify. It doesnt need to be a spell.

[Arkhios]

In order for this "Pact Druid" (needs a name... Primalist?) to work, it needs a filler cantrip similar to Eldritch Blast to conserve its Pact Slots. I would nominate Primal Savagery for that; since it already scales innately, I would then (a) give them Extra Attack + an ability to replace one of those attacks with a casting of PS, and (b) an Invocation that lets them add either Wis, Dex, or Str mod to the damage depending on how the class is designed. It could also replace one of its wild shape attacks with a use of this Primal Savagery casting as well, which would help fix the scaling issues that the Moon Druid failed to as well.

I agree with the rest of the lot. The "better" Druid (Bruid? :smallcool:) doesn't need something to mimic Eldritch Blast, as a Cantrip. We're not trying to make an alternative Warlock. We're trying to make an alternative Druid. At best (or worst?), this is going to end up looking like a hybrid of the two. While the Warlock focuses on spellcasting (or rather, pact magic), the Druid focuses on wild shapes.

In short the two parts of the hybrid that I feel the most relevant to this change are: Spellcasting changed to pact magic -ish and Wild Shape merged with the concept of Pact Boon (except, obviously, less "magical" in terms of spellcasting).

- Spellcasting replaced with a similar system as Pact Magic and Mystic Arcana from the Warlock, except obviously using Druid spell list and Wisdom (and named differently, while still effectively equal; so much so that I might let the two stack for multiclassing purposes in the same way as spellcasting classes do).
- Wild Shape mostly as is, but "Enhancements" (name pending) in the same format as Eldritch Invocations, essentially making the Wild Shape as the Druid's equivalent to Eldritch Blast.

I'm of the opinion that the wild shape should be almost 1:1 with the current version, with options to enhance them further, based on your playstyle.

In regards to Extra Attack, I would say that, if the form to be wild shaped into has Multiattack, the druid needs to have a certain level to qualify for Extra Attack as with the rest of the classes that get the equivalent feature; so, at minimum, 5 levels in Druid to get second attack from their form, and at least 11 levels to get the third, assuming the beast form has three attacks per multiattack, and finally 17 levels before they can even dream about having four attacks (in the same vein as Eldritch Blast's final beam). Each of these might even require an "Invocation" (name change pending) that require the previous before the upgrade is available. In addition, this chain of Extra Attack "invocations" might be gated behind a specialization (ergo "Pact Boon" -ish) to certain types of beasts.

In contrast to Pact Boons (Blade, Chain, or Tome), the druid's Form Specialization (could be the name, couldn't it?) gives at its very base level a list of beast types that fall into each category.

Let's start with this idea; I'm sure we can improve on it: we could have three different types: 1) big but tough behemoths 2) versatile predators, 3) small but fragile critters.

[Theodoxus]

One thing that I think would be useful is a baseline ability like the Celestial Warlock, granting a number of d6s that can be used to heal the Druid while in wildshape form, since they won't have as many spell slots to burn (though arguably larger, you might not need a 5d8 heal!). Then, have an Invocation Primal Gift? that allows them to use this Primal Healing on others; for those Druids that prefer to play Restoration instead of Guardian or Feral :smallwink:

[Arkhios]

One thing that I think would be useful is a baseline ability like the Celestial Warlock, granting a number of d6s that can be used to heal the Druid while in wildshape form, since they won't have as many spell slots to burn (though arguably larger, you might not need a 5d8 heal!).
True. I was pondering on that same issue earlier, but didn't mention it due to lack of any coherent idea.

What if the druid could expend uses of wild shape to regain hit points (calling it Natural Regeneration, or something) in and out of Wild Shape, by rolling a number of (d8+Wisdom modifier) equal to the number of expended uses? Obviously, the druid should have more uses of the Wild Shape than normally, but that's something I've been thinking to implement anyway. Possibly something along the lines of Bardic Inspiration: A number of uses equal to the Druid's Wisdom modifier per long rest (or maybe even per short rest starting from a certain higher level, in the same vein of Bard's Font of Inspiration).


Then, have an Invocation Primal Gift? that allows them to use this Primal Healing on others; for those Druids that prefer to play Restoration instead of Guardian or Feral :smallwink:
A man of culture, I see. I salute thee.
I'm not even ashamed to admit that, yes, a big part of this idea was inspired by the soon-to-be-20 years old MMORPG.

...now I'm wondering if I should add a some form of Not-Balance into the fold. :smallwink:

Seriusly though, it wouldn't even be difficult.

Circle of Stars = Balance
Circle of the Shepherd = Restoration
Circle of the Moon = Guardian/Feral

[GeneralVryth]

True. I was pondering on that same issue earlier, but didn't mention it due to lack of any coherent idea.

What if the druid could expend uses of wild shape to regain hit points (calling it Natural Regeneration, or something) in and out of Wild Shape, by rolling a number of (d8+Wisdom modifier) equal to the number of expended uses? Obviously, the druid should have more uses of the Wild Shape than normally, but that's something I've been thinking to implement anyway. Possibly something along the lines of Bardic Inspiration: A number of uses equal to the Druid's Wisdom modifier per long rest (or maybe even per short rest starting from a certain higher level, in the same vein of Bard's Font of Inspiration).


Remember though you talking about taking what was/is a pretty useful subclass ability and making it free. If you are only thinking about the main class, it can become very easy to make something that is OP once sub-classes are involved. This is part of why Wild Shape is not even assumed at all in my example above, but one the 3 Boons chosen early.



A man of culture, I see. I salute thee.
I'm not even ashamed to admit that, yes, a big part of this idea was inspired by the soon-to-be-20 years old MMORPG.

...now I'm wondering if I should add a some form of Not-Balance into the fold. :smallwink:

Seriusly though, it wouldn't even be difficult.

Circle of Stars = Balance
Circle of the Shepherd = Restoration
Circle of the Moon = Guardian/Feral

That has a certain flavor to it for sure. In practice though Balance and Restoration probably end up very similar as just modifications of spells or giving spell like effects. And if you reach back in the history of D&D you will find the 3/3.5e Druids with their faithful animal companions. Hence I have a soft for the following breakdown:
Wild Companion
Wild Shape
Old Knowledge

And the option to mix them if you want.

[Theodoxus]

I'm not sure how you'd go about codifying it, but if something like: Wildshape/Moon is a 1/3 caster, Animal Companion is a 1/2 caster, and "Balance/Resto" is a full caster, I think it would work well.

What I'm not sure you're talking about, putting it into Warlock parlance, is if these are Patrons or Pact Boons.

I would think making this kind of division at the patron/subclass level would make the most sense. Since they're granted at 1st level, there's no pulling back of slot progression, and it doesn't affect multiclassing.

Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Land are pretty obvious. (Though Moon only grants the 2014 baseline Druid Wildshape - see below.)
I'd incorporate Stars with Land, and maybe add an option at 1st level to emphasize healing, like with Life only slightly different bonuses, or blasting like an Evocation's sculp spell effect.
Circle of Companionship (I think it flows better than Shepherd, but I'm not adamant about it) would grant a companion, but unlike Rangers, I think it should include options for plants and fungus. Sort of rolling Spores and Shepherd together; the companion itself would work akin to the Ranger's (might even subsume the Ranger's BM completely...)

Then the Primal Boons... I'm thinking doubling down on circle aspects... Beast, Book, and Staff.
Beast grants a limited WS capability, probably 1/LR (with invocation support to boost it). But when coupled with Moon, it grants 2014 Moon wildshape.
Book works like the Warlock boon (extra cantrips), but grants an extra spell slot of your highest level instead of rituals and ritual casting.
Staff grants the Find Familiar spell, but for Companionship it instead boosts your companion (adding HP, maybe doubling the PB bonus they receive, etc.)

Invocations (Primal Gifts?) would then both modify the Boons, and grant other druid specific benefits (Barkskin, maybe boosting Goodberry to restore 1+PB HP?, continual Shillelagh on any club wielded, etc.)

[GeneralVryth]

I'm not sure how you'd go about codifying it, but if something like: Wildshape/Moon is a 1/3 caster, Animal Companion is a 1/2 caster, and "Balance/Resto" is a full caster, I think it would work well.

What I'm not sure you're talking about, putting it into Warlock parlance, is if these are Patrons or Pact Boons.

I would think making this kind of division at the patron/subclass level would make the most sense. Since they're granted at 1st level, there's no pulling back of slot progression, and it doesn't affect multiclassing.

Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Land are pretty obvious. (Though Moon only grants the 2014 baseline Druid Wildshape - see below.)
I'd incorporate Stars with Land, and maybe add an option at 1st level to emphasize healing, like with Life only slightly different bonuses, or blasting like an Evocation's sculp spell effect.
Circle of Companionship (I think it flows better than Shepherd, but I'm not adamant about it) would grant a companion, but unlike Rangers, I think it should include options for plants and fungus. Sort of rolling Spores and Shepherd together; the companion itself would work akin to the Ranger's (might even subsume the Ranger's BM completely...)

Then the Primal Boons... I'm thinking doubling down on circle aspects... Beast, Book, and Staff.
Beast grants a limited WS capability, probably 1/LR (with invocation support to boost it). But when coupled with Moon, it grants 2014 Moon wildshape.
Book works like the Warlock boon (extra cantrips), but grants an extra spell slot of your highest level instead of rituals and ritual casting.
Staff grants the Find Familiar spell, but for Companionship it instead boosts your companion (adding HP, maybe doubling the PB bonus they receive, etc.)

Invocations (Primal Gifts?) would then both modify the Boons, and grant other druid specific benefits (Barkskin, maybe boosting Goodberry to restore 1+PB HP?, continual Shillelagh on any club wielded, etc.)

I was envisioning Wild Companion, Wild Shape, and Old Knowledge as Pact Boons, or the starting point for those chains of invocations (see my above write-up for further details). The parallels would be something like:
Wild Companion = Chain
Wild Shape = Blade
Old Knowledge = Book

I don't think you need to go all the way down to 1/3 caster for Moon, or half caster for Companion (besides that is really hard to do). Just simply have Wild Shape consume a Primal Slot (Pact Slot) to change (and gain some temp HP), that will consume a fair amount of slots (probably all or nearly all at lower levels). The 2/3rds to full caster where my example ends up as is almost certainly balanced if taking full advantage of Wild Shape or the Companion consumes Primal Slots. I took a slightly different approach, I made Wild Shape extremely Gifts (Invocations) intensive just to get to Moon Druid competency, with the hope the reduced spell casting capacity would balance it out. If it doesn't having Wild Shape consume Primal Slots would be the next step (and could allow you to buff some of the Gifts associated with Wild Shape).

Subclasses would be something else, ideally a lot of them besides Moon would be re-usable. More or less binding certain Pact Boons to certain Subclasses is a major issue of the 5e Warlock (and what lead to Hexbalde's silliness), so trying to avoid that seems wise.

[Arkhios]

Remember though you talking about taking what was/is a pretty useful subclass ability and making it free. If you are only thinking about the main class, it can become very easy to make something that is OP once sub-classes are involved. This is part of why Wild Shape is not even assumed at all in my example above, but one the 3 Boons chosen early.
Obviously, a hit point regaining ability needs to be just right or it risks becoming OP.


That has a certain flavor to it for sure. In practice though Balance and Restoration probably end up very similar as just modifications of spells or giving spell like effects. And if you reach back in the history of D&D you will find the 3/3.5e Druids with their faithful animal companions. Hence I have a soft for the following breakdown:
Wild Companion
Wild Shape
Old Knowledge

And the option to mix them if you want.

Okay, that's not a bad composition, to be fair.

To make them stand out from each other a bit more, how're these?

Spirit Companion ("Chain-esque", but a bit more beefy. Maybe I'll just borrow the TCE-Ranger's Primal Companion's concept, and give them something that lends them some spiritual flavor; for example the relatively common trait "Incorporeal Movement" probably isn't too strong addition. Nature's Gifts (see, i may have decided on the feature's name) might then give the companion extra actions, like letting them make extra attacks in your stead, or the like)

Kindred Spirit ("Blade-esque"; 2014 base Wild Shape options, enhanced further by Nature's Gifts; for example, starting from 5th level, granting the Extra Attack ability while Wild Shaped, or granting the form additional abilities, like Rage-esque damage bonus and/or resistance)

Sage of the Old Faith ("Tome-esque", maybe a bit more priestly flavor, could even give a choice between gaining bonus spells known from the Life, Nature, or Tempest domain spell lists, enhanced further by Nature's Gifts, or alter their spells known to be spells prepared etc.)

[MagneticKitty]

I would not say wildshape is new person friendly, or special needs friendly... druid is a very complex class, one of the most complex to play.
but to answer your question; it already has a built in wildshape enhancement, it's called unlocking polymorph and using it on yourself (instead of enemies). polymorph scales to your level (cr) and is already very powerful.

if you're instead looking to make druid simpler, you could just use like base scaling stat blocks you'd have to make.
make a tanky build with lower attack power and fast one with more attack power but frail... and let them pick one extra movement type: climb, swim, fly that gets unlocked at the provided levels listed for forms. maybe disallow tanky and fly combo. Done.

[JNAProductions]

I would not say wildshape is new person friendly, or special needs friendly... druid is a very complex class, one of the most complex to play.
but to answer your question; it already has a built in wildshape enhancement, it's called unlocking polymorph and using it on yourself (instead of enemies). polymorph scales to your level (cr) and is already very powerful.

if you're instead looking to make druid simpler, you could just use like base scaling stat blocks you'd have to make.
make a tanky build with lower attack power and fast one with more attack power but frail... and let them pick one extra movement type: climb, swim, fly that gets unlocked at the provided levels listed for forms. maybe disallow tanky and fly combo. Done.

Polymorph is NOT the same as Wildshape.

It requires Concentration, doesn't have miscellaneous perks Wildshape does (like higher levels being able to cast spells, or Moon Druid self-healing), and most importantly, it replaces your mental stats.

[Ionathus]

Beast-Boy-Style Wildshape (i.e. functionally limitless quantity of "shifts" plus consistent variety and utility) should be Druid from the start. I get why 5e clung to the spellcasting baggage of previous editions, but they really should split Spellslinger Druid and Wildshaper Druid into two different classes.

I think the new D&D movie got it right there: they had so many fun and inventive things for Doric to do with her shapechanging that I never really missed her lack of spellcasting. The chase scene in the castle was especially fun.

Conceptual changes I'd make:

Remove Spellcasting
Give base druid the Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape features - swapping "expend a spell slot to heal" with "x times per day" or a pool of HP like paladin.
Druids get d12 HD (bear with me)(lol bears)
Wildshape no longer gives you an extra hitpoints pool -- damage taken applies to your "main" form.
AC of combat wildshape forms is buffed to improve tankiness. Between the HD buffs and the AC bonus of most combat-focused Wildshape forms, plus their bonus action healing pool, Druids should be medium-quality tanks, akin to Fighters and Clerics.
Different combat forms have more distinct (scaling) bonuses or tack-on effects, turning Druid into somewhat of a beast version of a Battle Master. One form gets a strong pushing/tripping attack, another gives allies advantage, another can constrict, another can protect allies, etc.
Outside of combat, removing the limitation on number of "shifts" would allow for much better scouting and utility.
Elemental transformation at level 10 becomes a base class feature, on a 1/short rest limit. Maybe the subclasses could differentiate here: one subclass gets classic Elementals, another gets (CR equivalent) Plants like Shambling Mound, another gets Fey, maybe the weirdest subclasses get Undead or Aberration.
Level 20 capstone is turning into a ****ing dragon.

I like the idea of combat and exploration generalists, and animal shapeshifting has so much cultural, folklore, and tactical potential. In combat, I'd see them scaling as decent damage dealers but really shining with their flexibility -- the Bonus Action wildshape means they could change every turn, but the competition for other Bonus Actions like healing (or class specific ones) means that you're rewarded for committing to a single form if that's your preference.

Toss in some flavorful ribbons like Druidic language and maybe the ability to get along with other animals by matching their form, and you've got yourself a great class that doesn't feel overwhelming like vanilla 5e druids do.

[MagneticKitty]

you want "more powerful forms" you get more powerful forms. *shrug*
the druid in wildshape's main job is melee tank, like it or not that's what polymorph gives you. more melee tank capability. you don't need mental stats and spell casting for that. basically you are giving these things up temporarily to be a better melee tank, which is what was asked for with "more wildshaping"
Otherwise, you're in the wrong place; go over to the homebrew channels.

[Theodoxus]

you want "more powerful forms" you get more powerful forms. *shrug*
the druid in wildshape's main job is melee tank, like it or not that's what polymorph gives you. more melee tank capability. you don't need mental stats and spell casting for that. basically you are giving these things up temporarily to be a better melee tank, which is what was asked for with "more wildshaping"
Otherwise, you're in the wrong place; go over to the homebrew channels.

You're thinking of the Bard casting polymorph on the Fighter who is down to 5 HP and it's WAY more useful to PM him HP than to actually heal him. The Bard then goes and hides in a corner, Dodging every turn while the Fighter goes to town.

See, the Druid using PM on themselves and wading into traffic is a single bad Concentration check away from being in Caster form surrounded by REALLY angry dudes... that is a combo for roast Druid on a stick, not the "I Pwn the World" you seem to think it is.

[Ionathus]

You're thinking of the Bard casting polymorph on the Fighter who is down to 5 HP and it's WAY more useful to PM him HP than to actually heal him. The Bard then goes and hides in a corner, Dodging every turn while the Fighter goes to town.

See, the Druid using PM on themselves and wading into traffic is a single bad Concentration check away from being in Caster form surrounded by REALLY angry dudes... that is a combo for roast Druid on a stick, not the "I Pwn the World" you seem to think it is.

I agree with your perspective though I think what MagneticKitty was getting at is that this whole thread has pretty much left the realm of "help me understand actual 5e druid" and entering the realm of "help me design a homebrew rework for the 5e druid."

That doesn't take away from your excellent point that, if a 4th level spell is better than your core class feature in many (though not all, tbf) ways, that's a pretty annoying for people who enjoy that core class feature.

[Arkhios]

I agree with your perspective though I think what MagneticKitty was getting at is that this whole thread has pretty much left the realm of "help me understand actual 5e druid" and entering the realm of "help me design a homebrew rework for the 5e druid."

That doesn't take away from your excellent point that, if a 4th level spell is better than your core class feature in many (though not all, tbf) ways, that's a pretty annoying for people who enjoy that core class feature.

You're right, this topic borders very closely to homebrewing and I probably shouldn't have started taking the discussion even further towards 'brewing in here. If any Moderator sees this, and thinks this thread is more suitable for Homebrew Subforum, please put it there.

In the meanwhile...

Beast-Boy-Style Wildshape (i.e. functionally limitless quantity of "shifts" plus consistent variety and utility) should be Druid from the start. I get why 5e clung to the spellcasting baggage of previous editions, but they really should split Spellslinger Druid and Wildshaper Druid into two different classes.

I think the new D&D movie got it right there: they had so many fun and inventive things for Doric to do with her shapechanging that I never really missed her lack of spellcasting. The chase scene in the castle was especially fun.

Conceptual changes I'd make:

Remove Spellcasting
Give base druid the Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape features - swapping "expend a spell slot to heal" with "x times per day" or a pool of HP like paladin.
Druids get d12 HD (bear with me)(lol bears)
Wildshape no longer gives you an extra hitpoints pool -- damage taken applies to your "main" form.
AC of combat wildshape forms is buffed to improve tankiness. Between the HD buffs and the AC bonus of most combat-focused Wildshape forms, plus their bonus action healing pool, Druids should be medium-quality tanks, akin to Fighters and Clerics.
Different combat forms have more distinct (scaling) bonuses or tack-on effects, turning Druid into somewhat of a beast version of a Battle Master. One form gets a strong pushing/tripping attack, another gives allies advantage, another can constrict, another can protect allies, etc.
Outside of combat, removing the limitation on number of "shifts" would allow for much better scouting and utility.
Elemental transformation at level 10 becomes a base class feature, on a 1/short rest limit. Maybe the subclasses could differentiate here: one subclass gets classic Elementals, another gets (CR equivalent) Plants like Shambling Mound, another gets Fey, maybe the weirdest subclasses get Undead or Aberration.
Level 20 capstone is turning into a ****ing dragon.

I like the idea of combat and exploration generalists, and animal shapeshifting has so much cultural, folklore, and tactical potential. In combat, I'd see them scaling as decent damage dealers but really shining with their flexibility -- the Bonus Action wildshape means they could change every turn, but the competition for other Bonus Actions like healing (or class specific ones) means that you're rewarded for committing to a single form if that's your preference.

Toss in some flavorful ribbons like Druidic language and maybe the ability to get along with other animals by matching their form, and you've got yourself a great class that doesn't feel overwhelming like vanilla 5e druids do.

I like where you're getting at. And part of me agrees with this. However, I wouldn't drop spellcasting entirely. In regards to self-healing capabilities, I do realize that Pact Magic type casting is probably a bit bonkers given that you might end up healing much more than you needed (= "wasting" resources), and a pool of HP like Paladin could be good alternative. Usable as a Bonus Action while wild-shaped but only on yourself. Maybe even include the possibility to heal yourself with the same action used to wild-shape from your normal form to wild shape or even from wild shape to another (or, as I earlier put it, essentially expending uses of wild shape to heal yourself). Actually, now that I think of it, maybe wildshaping should be a pool of Points in on itself, similar to Sorcery Points, or Ki Points, which you could use for more than just wild shapes (such as healing yourself).

[Ionathus]

Actually, now that I think of it, maybe wildshaping should be a pool of Points in on itself, similar to Sorcery Points, or Ki Points, which you could use for more than just wild shapes (such as healing yourself).

I'm still mainly in favor of "unlimited" but I'd also be fine with "a bunch of" wildshapes per short rest/long rest.

The worst thing about vanilla druid is having only 2 uses of your most flavorful and exciting feature. Druid was my first ever 5e PC, and I can't tell you the number of times I wildshaped for like, one turn, before the fight/burglary/social encounter conditions changed so drastically that my current form was useless and I wished I'd picked a different animal.

And with only 2 uses per short rest, the extremely high opportunity cost of wildshaping was ALWAYS on my mind. I was always hesitant to use it on anything even remotely "flippant", so Analysis Paralysis was just a constant feature of my gameplay.

Combine that with Druid's fairly esoteric spell list (that's absolutely packed with Concentration spells, so there's a second thing you have to guess and commit to if you want to get good value out of it!) and you get one of the worst "FOMO" experiences in all of 5e, in my opinion.

[KyleG]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

[Arkhios]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

To be honest, I'm actually more comfortable with the Pact Magicky casting progress, because it's sort of mix between a full-caster and ½-caster (technically still a full-caster given that they still have access to a spell list of total 9 levels of spells). Since druids have a "full-caster" spell-list, I'd rather not radically restrict that part.

However, what I could try, is to make the druids progress through spell levels at half the normal pace (like a half-caster), while keeping the progression for the number of spell slots, as is normal for Pact Magic, and finally make it part of becoming an Arch Druid to gain the ability to cast their higher than 5th level spells, once/long rest for each spell level.

[Arkhios]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

To be honest, I'm actually more comfortable with the Pact Magicky casting progress, because it's sort of mix between a full-caster and ½-caster (technically still a full-caster given that they still have access to a spell list of total 9 levels of spells). Since druids have a "full-caster" spell-list, I'd rather not radically restrict that part.

However, what I could try, is to make the druids progress through spell levels at half the normal pace (like a half-caster), while keeping the progression for the number of spell slots, as is normal for Pact Magic, and finally make it part of becoming an Arch Druid to gain the ability to cast their higher than 5th level spells, once/long rest for each spell level.

[Kane0]

I'm very much a fan of temp HP (plus even a bit of healing for moon or whatever) instead of a new pool of HP.

[Arkhios]

I'm very much a fan of temp HP (plus even a bit of healing for moon or whatever) instead of a new pool of HP.

How much should the temp HP be? As much as the wild shape form would have hit points, or something less, determined by some specific calculation?

[yisopo]

Do you have some free third-party suggestions? I would really like to play a class highly specialized in wildshaping.

[Vogie]

I've been thinking about this for a while - the depiction of a druid in D&D: Honor Among Thieves, for example, shows the druid Doric forgoing casting altogether, and only using wild shapes.

If you wanted to create this type of thing, I could see it executed one of two ways:

Specifically. You would still use the wizard/druid chassis but whole-cloth replace the "spell slot" and spellcasting features with "animal shapes" (or whatever you'd call it). At the beginning of each day, the druid chooses a number of forms that they can call upon that day. Unlike a spell, which is either instant or with some sort of duration, these forms can be flickered between these. I envision this acting kind of like how the Druid working in Diablo IV - You wouldn't have "attack" and "shift to a wolf" as two separate things, but rather the way you attack is by shifting into a wolf. You wouldn't have the "Dash" action as something distinct from, say, "shift into a deer" - you would be shifting into a deer as a way to dash. Shifting in this way would be exclusive, rather than inclusive - if you have Spider prepared and not Rat, you can't shift into a rat.
Generally. This is what I expected once Tasha's came out and introduced the concept of the scaling "beast of the Air", "beast of the Land" and "Beast of the sea" statblocks. Going down this route would make more sense on the warlock chassis - You have the ability to shift into different groups of things as "invocations". Each one of those shifts would be using around the same stats with different line-item traits that distinguish a cat from a badger from a spider.

[Kane0]

How much should the temp HP be? As much as the wild shape form would have hit points, or something less, determined by some specific calculation?

Probably something like Druid level or 2x Druid level if you're allowing shifting two or three times per rest, less if youre letting them shift more often.

[Arkhios]

Do you have some free third-party suggestions? I would really like to play a class highly specialized in wildshaping.

Please refrain from hijacking a thread for your own purposes, even though I trust your intentions were good, and your question does relate to the topic. I'm trying to design a "third-party" wildshaping specialist myself (regardless of how many there are already), not to advertise someone else's ideas (regardless of their quality, 'cause I'm not here to judge either). If you have nothing to offer to this process, then I would kindly ask you to direct the question elsewhere.
I'm not being paid to do it (yet), but I am building a folio to work as a game designer, and I need all the experience, most of which I can only get from doing it myself.



Check out this (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/421499/Druids-Secrets-of-the-Primal-Circle) 3rd party product. The dire druid is a half-caster that focuses extensively on wild shape (though it may be a new mechanic / called something different). My brother has a physical copy and I've looked through it a few times. It seems like fun, but I no playtesting experience with it. There are tons of subclasses which each represent a type of animal to shapeshift into (feline, bear, elk, bird, etc.).
Edit: OK, that wasn't free, so probably not ideal for your purposes.

I've taken a stab at this concept (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599959-Shapeshifter-Class). Twice (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646504-Shapeshifter-Mk-II-Shape-Harder).

There's a whole Homebrew Compendium (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) with quite a few Shapeshifter classes, and probably some other classes along that vein.


In the interest of sharing, I've now made my own Shifter class, partially based off the PF1e class I linked before, but also not.

Link (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/UCUfKmBdAb5o)

Five subclasses - Beast (Closest to 'Wildshape'), dragon, griffon, manticore, and Therian (weretouched, with half-caster druidic pact magic casting).

D12 hit dice and mostly unarmoured puts it alongside Barbarian in initial vibes, though they diverge pretty quickly.






Probably something like Druid level or 2x Druid level if you're allowing shifting two or three times per rest, less if youre letting them shift more often.

I can't help but think that this probably would depend on whether the loss of THP indicates also the loss of wild shape or not. If remaining THP is a requirement of staying in Wild Shape, then I think it should be higher. But if the Wild Shape shares your normal hit points and the THP comes only as part of the action to take the Wild Shape form, and you can end the form whenever or however, then it probably could be less.

One thing, that came up before, got me into thinking. THP is certainly the more easier method to go with the Wild Shape forms, but there was this idea that druid's hit die should be changed to d12 altogether. This is perhaps a bit too radical change, but there are several precedent cases where a subclass gives the class higher maximum hit points than the base class gives per level. For example, Draconic Origin Sorcerer gains +1 extra hit point per level (roughly equal to increasing hit die from the Sorcerer's normal d6 to d8).

Since the Druid's hit die is d8 and the suggested d12 is approximately ~2 points higher on average, it would kind of make sense, that you'd get 2 additional hit points per druid level, while in Wild Shape. It could just as well be THP, to be honest. Could possibly even refresh to the total amount of THP at the start of each turn while you stay in Wild Shape. This way you wouldn't need a separate way to expend a resource to regain hit points, and still keep on fighting a bit longer even if your real Hit Points are getting lower.

Just a thought. I need to go to work soon, so I'll leave this here for now for feedback.