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Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-14, 07:07 PM
I think the title of this explains it pretty darn well. What sort of asylums and sociopaths might one find in the D&D game? I'm not talking about the evil necromancer in the black tower planning world domination, thats Evil evil. I'm talking about the kind old goblin who takes your shoe measurements during the day then kills people and steals their feet as trophies at night (Cookie if you get the reference).

How would they accomplish their crimes? Obviously not all of them have access to magic or protection from divinations, and obviously some might, so how would they hide their crimes? Or would they even? Maybe they just merely focus on being uncatchable..

For that matter how are such people contained? Ordinary (Relatively...) non-spellcasting ones might need restraints, but how do they cover for a high-sleight of hand check and some hidden lock-picks? What about for the spellcasting ones? Anti-magic shackles or anti-magic cells are way too expensive for the run of the mill and even some government sponsored asylums.


And lastly...what sort sociopath really merits an asylum in D&D and not just a plain ol' smiting?

Citizen Joe
2007-12-14, 07:15 PM
In DND they'd just use some sort of curative magic. If the person still eminates evil, the paladin just kills them.

In a low magic setting, these people are either killed or left to die to their own devices.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-14, 07:24 PM
In DND they'd just use some sort of curative magic. If the person still eminates evil, the paladin just kills them.

In a low magic setting, these people are either killed or left to die to their own devices.

...By all means, what sort of curative magic is there to fix a mental disorder? Not an insanity spell, an actual disorder or desire to kill? Cause if there is, I'm pretty sure I missed it (Not counting the Helm of Opposite Aligment which is a cursed item). ((Or how a paladin doesn't fall for murdering somebody just because the first attempt at reform failed?))

Green Bean
2007-12-14, 07:29 PM
How would they accomplish their crimes? Obviously not all of them have access to magic or protection from divinations, and obviously some might, so how would they hide their crimes? Or would they even? Maybe they just merely focus on being uncatchable..

Well, as long as they make sure to maintain mundane disguises during their crimes, and don't reveal anything to the victim (for those pesky Speak with Deads), it should hold up. Thing is, at the sort of levels you're implying, the police more often than not won't have access to the higher level scrying spells that would make it easy to find him/her.


For that matter how are such people contained? Ordinary (Relatively...) non-spellcasting ones might need restraints, but how do they cover for a high-sleight of hand check and some hidden lock-picks? What about for the spellcasting ones? Anti-magic shackles or anti-magic cells are way too expensive for the run of the mill and even some government sponsored asylums.

For the mundane crazies, you'll want to use pick-proof locks. Cell doors aren't really for frequent use; if you simply bar the door from the other side, or even put all the deadbolts and chains on the other side of a foot thick steel door, no amount of lockpicks will let the prisoner pick his/her way out. Also, depending on how gritty you want your setting to be, a simple solution for the spellcasters would be to cut out their hands and tongues. If you're dealing with lowish level casters, the odds are against someone taking Still and Silent spell.


And lastly...what sort sociopath really merits an asylum in D&D and not just a plain ol' smiting?

Hmm. That's really a setting question. Darker campaigns will be less likely to have an asylum system, treating the mad like any other criminal, and sticking them in with the rest of the sane villains, and high magic, idealistic settings would have temple-sponsored trips to cities with clerics capable of casting Heal or Greater Restoration. If your setting is somewhere in the middle, the only folks in asylums are the obviously crazy ones. So the quiet sociopath who kills half a dozen people before being caught goes to prison, while the raving lunatic who tries to stab people because purple Tarrasques told him to would end up in Arkham.

Xefas
2007-12-14, 07:31 PM
...By all means, what sort of curative magic is there to fix a mental disorder? Not an insanity spell, an actual disorder or desire to kill? Cause if there is, I'm pretty sure I missed it (Not counting the Helm of Opposite Aligment which is a cursed item). ((Or how a paladin doesn't fall for murdering somebody just because the first attempt at reform failed?))

D&D has no prisons, only cemeteries.

That said, the much-maligned gnomes might do in a low magic setting. They get a few magic tricks as a racial ability. This works great if he's far removed from gnome territory, and no-one knows it's a racial thing. They know how to talk to badgers which is pretty loopy anyway. Maybe have one convincing all the badgers in the area to go around killing people?

Don't forget! All D&D serial murders need to completely destroy the heads of those they kill, or else suffer the anticlimax of Speak With Dead.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-14, 07:47 PM
Also, didn't Heal cure you form insanities, normal or magical.

AslanCross
2007-12-14, 08:02 PM
I'm talking about the kind old goblin who takes your shoe measurements during the day then kills people and steals their feet as trophies at night (Cookie if you get the reference).


Hell's Heart? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20071031)

I'm running Hell's Heart this Christmas break myself, and I think it does a pretty accurate job of representing psychopaths. In general, I'd think that serial killers in a D&D setting would probably just focus on not getting caught. If they don't leave anything, Wizards wouldn't really have much to scry on, and if a corpse is properly dismembered, (or found at all), speak with dead won't really work.

The thing about Hell's Heart is that it's set in Eberron, so the authorities don't really have as much of a tendency to tell the PCs to "go forth and smite him in the name of the King and of Heironeous." I really don't think there wouldn't be an asylum unless someone really bothered to study these people.

As for curative magic, I don't really know. I'd say pathological insanity is just as hard to cure as magical insanity:

Remove curse does not remove insanity. Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the creature. And not every town has a cleric who can access those spells. I'd think most people would prefer to stay the Hells away from them.

If one would really like to incorporate psychopathic characters into the campaign, it might be best to say that the above spells prevent the person involved from completely flipping out. However, he/she may still have retained certain tendencies afterwards.

Dode
2007-12-14, 08:10 PM
I think the title of this explains it pretty darn well. What sort of asylums and sociopaths might one find in the D&D game?
Dungeon.

How would they accomplish their crimes?In a manner quickly found out by a determined magical inquistor.

For that matter how are such people contained?Putting monsters in the dungeon. Maybe the dungeon has a dragon.

And lastly...what sort sociopath really merits an asylum in D&D and not just a plain ol' smiting? None.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-14, 08:14 PM
One thing most people forget is that very few people were actually imprisoned in medieval times. Mostly, they would be left in a cell overnight, then a magistrate would order them flogged, executed, or released the next day. The only ones imprisoned were those who were crazy or who might be useful to the kingdom in later years. As for how to imprison them, AMF and a DC30 lock would be all you really need, especially if you rig the lock in such a way that it can't be reached from the cell. If you add in a padlocked door to the cells that cannot be opened from the inside and have a guard outside it, that should be enough.

MrNexx
2007-12-14, 08:14 PM
Asylums are somewhat anachronistic for the time/cultural level assumed by most games. Ravenloft has them, but it assumes a generally later historical level.

Assuming that magic doesn't cure them (the Heal spell cures magical insanity, so it makes sense that it would work against "natural" insanity), something that would be more common would be a monastery (I'm more thinking a medieval European monastery, here). Those who were mentally disabled would frequently be sent to a monastery to work and be cared for.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-14, 09:12 PM
Hell's Heart? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20071031)

I'm running Hell's Heart this Christmas break myself, and I think it does a pretty accurate job of representing psychopaths. In general, I'd think that serial killers in a D&D setting would probably just focus on not getting caught. If they don't leave anything, Wizards wouldn't really have much to scry on, and if a corpse is properly dismembered, (or found at all), speak with dead won't really work.

Well that was fast...*gives a cookie*


The thing about Hell's Heart is that it's set in Eberron, so the authorities don't really have as much of a tendency to tell the PCs to "go forth and smite him in the name of the King and of Heironeous." I really don't think there wouldn't be an asylum unless someone really bothered to study these people.

As for curative magic, I don't really know. I'd say pathological insanity is just as hard to cure as magical insanity:
And not every town has a cleric who can access those spells. I'd think most people would prefer to stay the Hells away from them.

If one would really like to incorporate psychopathic characters into the campaign, it might be best to say that the above spells prevent the person involved from completely flipping out. However, he/she may still have retained certain tendencies afterwards.

True true, they might not have done it often in historical setting most games take place in, but the idea of an insane asylum tickles my recent family for horror and intrigue. Hence this thread. Plus I really doubt that ALL the NPC adventures in any given campaign world are as bloodthirsty as PC's usually tend to be (And you have to admit, PC adventurers are a rather bloody thristy lot :smallwink: ) and wouldn't kill (especially the same race) willy nilly.

And they do HAVE to go somewhere. (Plus the doubt that they'll stick the REALLY dangerous ones with like...the poor guy who stole some copper to buy foods mean theres probably some special place for it).

Miles Invictus
2007-12-14, 09:13 PM
Heal is a 6th level Cleric spell -- that's a high-level spell, unlikely to be found in anything but very large cities. So I can see mental illnesses occurring in a D&D world. I think, though, that a good-aligned society would differentiate between evil and insane, and put people into asylums.

In a high-magic world, they'd be pretty small, though -- big enough to hold a few inmates overnight, while they make arrangements for Healing (either a local high-powered priest, or shipping them off to a place with such a priest).

Of course, mental illness will still exist. There probably aren't enough high level Clerics to go around, and there's also the problem of finding out who's insane in the first place.

You know, that wouldn't be a bad setup for a good-aligned adventure: tracking down a serial killer who's insane instead of evil. After the party learns his identity, they have to decide how to handle him.

Ralfarius
2007-12-14, 10:49 PM
I'd assume that most sociopaths (or what have you), once caught, would be put to the spear. They'd be bountied, and enterprising adventurers would hunt them down for the head-price. I'd say that most societies at D&D's level simply wouldn't abide by murderers, and paying to keep anyone locked up is silly if they're not so influential as to cause a stir by dying (political prisoners). So, I'm of the mind that most nutjobs just end up dead, if they're caught.

Unless you're in a setting like Ravenloft, where decaying sanatoriums that echo the lingering wails of the mad are part of the atmosphere.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-15, 09:13 AM
The good nobles son might get left off.

He'd make sure he was completely covered before he did the crimes or destroy the body.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-15, 11:08 AM
Depends on how dark, and logically consistent the game is.

There might be asylums everywhere, but yet there's still all kinds of crazies around. But then, one might be trying to make a point about bureaucracy.


Also, I feel a need to chime in and say that I think that magicing away natural insanity is a pretty morally questionable thing to do. It first implies that there is some "correct" way that one should think, and that deviation needs to be fixed. I mean, imagine if you lived in a world full of blind people, you start talking about all these "colors". They then declare you insane, and set out to fix you.

In a world of magic it's worse, because others can impose their will on you much easier.

Asylums strike me as having the same sort of general attitude. "We will correct you regardless of your opinion in the matter." I probably wouldn't use either in anything but what would generally be considered a Lawful Evil society.

Which would be full of sociopaths :P


As far as Sociopathy goes, is it really mental illness? And if it's actively "fixed" would there be anyone with an evil alignment in that society? Who do you viciously murder for experience then? (Perhaps breaking into the Asylum to kill them? Mwa ha ha!)

Where does the line get drawn between who "deserves" smiting? That depends on your own beliefs. How the game is often played assumes anyone evil deserves to die. And, I would think that the vast majority of evil characters would be sociopaths. If you decide that simple evil is not enough for murder (*gasp!*), ask yourself what level of crime to set things at (a selfish bastard who just steals from blind people may not warrant murder, but a serial killer might) and also, if people who can't help but be evil exist and if they should be killed. Or "fixed".

Hey just because I have certain views doesn't mean you can't have a game with contrary ones. That'd be pretty stupid.

Squatting_Monk
2007-12-15, 12:25 PM
I agree with Xuincherguixe. As I personally despise the stick-up-the-ass paladin cliché, I don't believe that justice in a D&D society should be meted out based on how you scan on the evil-o-meter. (Ironically, this viewpoint is expressed by a large number of people on these boards, yet we continue to assume that this is how society in our games works. I suspect we gripe because we can't have characters being secretly evil without resorting to high-level magics, yet it's easy to toss our players generic evil monsters to fight since we don't have to put any thought into it. But I digress.)

I like to play on moral ambiguity in my homebrew setting. It's a gritty place, and asylums have popped up to contain some of the elements of society people would rather not deal with. It started with those manifesting sorcerer powers, then extended to those mad with plague. Now the institutions have expanded to house the insane, elderly, homosexuals, unwedded mothers, and (in a few cases) even overly rebellious children. The emphasis is on trying to "fix" people, which often consists of lobotomy, electroshock, and outright torture. It's all very "scientific", and they tend to get away with it since no one wants those people in society anyway.

Consider the role you wants asylums to play. Are they places where the insane are sequestered to protect society, or to protect themselves? Why, as Xuincherguixe asked, does society see them as different and how do they justify correcting it? Asylums generally treat as well as contain, so how does your foot-stealing goblin get treated by the authorities? Is he ever expected to be rehabilitated or cured?


Unless you're in a setting like Ravenloft, where decaying sanatoriums that echo the lingering wails of the mad are part of the atmosphere.

Do note that a sanatorium is an institution for the treatment of chronic medical diseases, and is not the same as an asylum. :smallwink: (Sorry, pet peeve.)

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-15, 02:02 PM
Regarding H_V's suggestion for stopping spellcasters, wouln't killing them be more humane then mutillating them? (I thought I'd ask due to how it would also be easier to kill them due to how they would need extra care due to being disabled while rendering them unable to do much of anything, unless only removing 1 hand and their tongue would be enough to stop them using magic).

Green Bean
2007-12-15, 02:22 PM
Regarding H_V's suggestion for stopping spellcasters, wouln't killing them be more humane then mutillating them? (I thought I'd ask due to how it would also be easier to kill them due to how they would need extra care due to being disabled while rendering them unable to do much of anything, unless only removing 1 hand and their tongue would be enough to stop them using magic).

On the other hand, you can make much the same arguments about any high-risk inmate of an asylum. Why keep them alive just because they're crazy; they'll just eat up resources.

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-15, 02:28 PM
That is a good point (if the prisoners weren't going to be disabled, you would probably need to assess what the chances of them escaping and killing people is). Personally, I'd say that killing people who are insane is unethical, but amputating their hands would be even worse in that regard.

Dervag
2007-12-15, 03:08 PM
I'd assume that most sociopaths (or what have you), once caught, would be put to the spear. They'd be bountied, and enterprising adventurers would hunt them down for the head-price. I'd say that most societies at D&D's level simply wouldn't abide by murderers, and paying to keep anyone locked up is silly if they're not so influential as to cause a stir by dying (political prisoners). So, I'm of the mind that most nutjobs just end up dead, if they're caught.Yeah. In a medieval society someone who commited an 'insane' act of violence that bothered the local government (stabbing a respected citizen, as opposed to stabbing a random hobo nobody important would miss) just got outlawed or executed.

Talic
2007-12-16, 01:24 AM
...By all means, what sort of curative magic is there to fix a mental disorder? Not an insanity spell, an actual disorder or desire to kill? Cause if there is, I'm pretty sure I missed it (Not counting the Helm of Opposite Aligment which is a cursed item). ((Or how a paladin doesn't fall for murdering somebody just because the first attempt at reform failed?))

Psion with uber-lobotomy action.

Come to think of it, it'd make a good sociopath too... Brainwashing random people to do random grisly crimes... Hmm. All that the average investigator would get is a 14% rise in the murder rate.

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-16, 03:02 AM
I was thinking about other ways of solving the problem, and I think a good one would be to develope a spell which would perminantly turn the sociopath into an animal (physically and mentally, assuming that animals aren't prone to becoming psychotic unless their abused) before having them serve as animal companions, or possibly using them to help the town guard. Alternatively, in a high magic setting, the Minimus Containment and Metamorphosis versions of Binding would be the cheapest options assuming that you can get the target to just submit to the spell: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Binding (the problem is that the prisoner would get immensly bored due to being stuck there for all of eternity, which could make them more dangerous if they somehow got released, so killing them may be a safer and more humane option.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-16, 03:19 AM
How, exactly, is trapping someone for all eternity to slowly go mad from imprisonment more human than just killing them outright?

Of course, there's always at least one option available for the righteous: There's this certain infamous spell from the BoED called sanctify the wicked. I don't know the exact details, but I do know that it involves trapping a victim inside a gem for a year, purifying their soul and turning them to cause of good. Either that or you just end up killing them.

Note: I don't reccomend using this spell unless your setting is either really idealistic (to the point where turning someone Good by any means is noble and not at all terrifying) or really cynical (to the point where the "Good" guys use exactly the same methods as the "Evil" guys, except they have a different political philosophy)

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-16, 03:29 AM
I never said it would be more humane (I said that killing someone would be a better option in that regard. Admittedly, if there was somehow a risk of the psychopath being revived, binding would be a better option for the sake of everyone else). Another problem with using Sanctify the Wicked is that mental illness may not change the person's alignment (eg: if someone believes that people are attacking them when the "attackers" aren't affecting the person with the illness at all, they are basically acting in a neutral fashion).

Feralgeist
2007-12-16, 07:01 AM
mark of justice would work well. Or you could just cast bestow greater curse on spellcasters, take away either their voice or their spellcasting

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-16, 07:50 AM
Would the MoJ be used to prevent them from using magic, or would it be used to stop them from hurting people? The problem is that, if they are insane, they may do things without factoring the consequences in, which would mean that it may not be much of a deterrant.

Mikeavelli
2007-12-16, 09:24 AM
There was a Planescape module back in the day (Several actually, if you count everything that featured the Bleakers) - called "Harbringer House."

The titular house was a sort of halfway house \ Asylum for people with the 'Divine Spark' (Similar to the protagonist of the Baldurs Gate series) - only they couldn't deal with it, and were more than a little barmy because of it. The adventure dealt with two very different, but just as disruptive high level escapees, a sociopath who was working to complete a ritual that would allow him to fully ascend into dietyhood (Which involved several elaborate murders) - and a hopeless romantic of a Bard who had the divine spark of a diety of love and happiness that got tricked into thinking the Lady of Pain loved him, and was using his almost-god powers and natural charisma to convince loads of people that it would be a good idea to gather in public and shout the praises of the Lady.

Those familiar with Sigil will know why that is a very, very bad idea.

-------------

Other things I've seen done include: An Asylum with a connection to the Far Realm... It was built because the connection already existed, and was causing a whole lot of people in the area to lose their minds. One particularly lucid lunatic found the portal itself, and funded the building of the Asylum over it to gather them all in one place. I forget what the eventual goal of it was, if there even was one, but the Players had to put an end to it and not go insane in a particularly Call of Cthulhu-esque adventure.

Murder mysteries that take into account high-level magic and feature things like Trap the soul spells and mutilation of the corpse to prevent Speak with Dead from working, forcing a little good old fashioned detective work to track down who all is buying diamonds valued at thousands of gold pieces, it was quite stylish.

Dervag
2007-12-16, 10:26 AM
Would the MoJ be used to prevent them from using magic, or would it be used to stop them from hurting people?Yes.

The problem is that, if they are insane, they may do things without factoring the consequences in, which would mean that it may not be much of a deterrant.If it doesn't, then they get nailed with the effects of the Mark, which in turn make them easy prey for law enforcement, who can then really drop the hammer on them. It fills the role that was historically filled by branding in the Middle Ages (people who committed what was deemed a serious crime might very well have a letter branded on their hands or faces to mark them as a criminal).


and a hopeless romantic of a Bard who had the divine spark of a diety of love and happiness that got tricked into thinking the Lady of Pain loved him, and was using his almost-god powers and natural charisma to convince loads of people that it would be a good idea to gather in public and shout the praises of the Lady.

Those familiar with Sigil will know why that is a very, very bad idea.Can anyone tell me why?

kamikasei
2007-12-16, 10:40 AM
Can anyone tell me why?

The Lady is effectively omnipotent and despises worship, hers above all.

NerfTW
2007-12-16, 10:42 AM
Can anyone tell me why?

You tend to die horribly by means of razor sharp shadows whenever she shows up.

I think. Been a long time since I played Torment.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-16, 12:17 PM
You tend to die horribly by means of razor sharp shadows whenever she shows up.

I think. Been a long time since I played Torment.

Almost but not quite. First she puts you in a maze. Which if you're clever you can escape. It's assumed though that almost no one manages to get out.

Piss her off again and she kills you for good. (Your character keeps coming back from the dead for some reason I won't spoil, but the Lady of Pain trumps the "come back" part)

The shadows are something else.

Tempest Fennac
2007-12-16, 01:32 PM
Thanks for explaining about your MoJ idea, Dervag (that is a good point about how they would be vurnerable to the town guard if the mark was activated).