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Blasterfire
2007-12-14, 07:41 PM
Ok, so I normally play fighter types, tough guys that stand upfront and take/deal damage. I've decided, however, that the character I'm making for my next campaign will be a rogue focusing on being sneaky and hidey, and making use of SA. I have no idea how to really go about this, but I'm thinking of going for Shadowdancer for HiPS and possibly going twf so i can use more SA dice per round. Farther than that and I'm at a loss for what do do. Got any advice for a player (relatively) new to rogues? All books are allowed, starting level is four, race has to be human (due to campaign restrictions). Though I personally have nothing against some fine cheese, the DM does, so please limit it :smallsmile:. Other than that, anything goes. Thanks in advance.

goat
2007-12-14, 08:34 PM
Sneaky and hidey along with TWF suggests simple dex-maxing, but you'll need to keep an eye on various other things. As a rogue, your skills are your bread & butter, and having more is always good, so extra int for a boost is nice. Shadowdancer requires dance ranks, so you'll want spare for that anyway.

The TWF tree uses up quite a few feats, and shadowdancer requires three others. As a rogue, your BAB means you're going to be getting the TWF tree available to take pretty late, but the three for SD, plus weapon finesse (I assume?) will be consuming feats early on anyway.

UMD is always good, as is tumble. As long as you don't abuse skill-boosters, they don't get too cheesy.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-14, 08:56 PM
How about the variant Pyschic Rogue?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

A single level of Spellthief could be nice if there are a lot of casters in the game and if there is transparency between magic and psionics so you can take the Master Spellthief feat.

The +2 LA Shadow Creature template with LA buydown.

The +1 LA Shadow walker template from Unapproachable East has some interesting specials.

The +1 LA Dark creature template has hide in plain sight.

Chronos
2007-12-14, 09:16 PM
If your DM allows Tome of Magic, the Dark template is a much better deal than Shadowdancer. A shadowdancer dip costs you one level of rogue, plus an extra three feats and five skill points for the prereqs, and gives you nothing but the Hide in Plain Sight. The Dark template costs you nothing but one level of rogue (and possibly not even that, if Level Adjustment Buyoff is allowed), but gives you HiPS, hefty bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Darkvision, faster movement, and cold resistance.

Another option, if your DM allows it, is Warlock with the Darkness invocation, with a feat from one of the Underdark books that lets you hide in plain sight if within 10' of magical darkness. It's not as good as the Shadowdancer version for sneaking past unaware creatures, since the magical darkness will at least let them know you're there (and hence possibly Glitterdust you, or attack blindly and hope to overcome the miss chance), but it only costs one feat and no skill points, and gives a couple of other advantages.

That said, if Dark or Warlock isn't allowed, Shadowdancer is probably still worth it eventually. But I wouldn't recommend taking it until after you get your tenth level of rogue, to pick up Skill Mastery as soon as possible. Also, that'll let you postpone the low-usefulness prerequisite skills and feats for longer, letting you gain some useful capabilities.

For feats, my highest recommendations would go to Darkstalker, from Lords of Madness (allows you to hide from Blindsight and similar abilities) and Improved Initiative (since enemies are flatfooted and hence sneakable until their first action, so going first is especially good)

For equipment, first on your list should be a Heward's Handy Haversack. Then, fill it up with some of every piece of mundane or alchemical equipment on the list: At any level above 1st, they're cheap enough that the price doesn't matter, and you've got plenty of room in your H^3. Grab a couple of Elixirs for those occasions when you need to be really sneaky, and some Feather Tokens (Boat and Tree). A Hand of the Mage is very useful, too, giving unlimited use of one of the more useful low-level spells for only 900 gold.

Once you get your UMD up high enough to reliably use them, pick up some wands: Ray of Frost or Acid Splash (or heck, both: They're cheap) for ranged sneak attacks that ignore armor, Flame Blade for full attack sneak attacks that ignore armor, Silence and Hide from Animals to enhance your sneakiness, Prestitigitation for a wide variety of effects, etc. Once you get high enough level, buy (or have the wizard scribe) a scroll of Antimagic Field.

Finally, a reminder that you don't have to kill everything you meet, and sometimes don't have to kill anything. If you sneak past the monsters standing guard outside the villain's inner sanctum, you've defeated them, regardless of whether you killed them or not. You still get XP from the guards, and you can still often achieve the goals of the adventure.

Xefas
2007-12-14, 09:34 PM
I would suggest taking a level of Swordsage in there, so you can grab the Child of Shadow stance.

Not only is it good by itself, but allows you to take Shadow Blade, thus allowing you to entirely dump strength if you want. Feats would look like-

H) Weapon Finesse
1) Shadow Blade
3) Darkstalker

Less points spent on strength generally means more Int (since your dex is already maxed, right?), which means more skills, which is awesome.

Not to mention it never hurts to have a handful of maneuvers for when you need them.

Blasterfire
2007-12-15, 07:21 PM
Okay, ill talk to my DM about allowing the dark template, but in case he doesn't allow it (he doesnt really like LA), shadowdancer will work ok? If he does allow dark, it seems like the not being able to HiPS in daylight will hurt me. How necessary is HiPS for a sneak attack build? Are there more efficient ways to get those SA dice (flanking is all that comes to mind, and that seems unreliable). Shadow Blade and Darkstalker look really nice, I'm probably picking those up.

Chronicled
2007-12-15, 08:16 PM
There's a very nice variant class feature in Dungeonscape that swaps out Trap Sense (the AC/reflex boost against traps) for the ability to do 1/2 SA to enemies normally immune to it. You have to be flanking said enemy, but with all the normally SA-immune enemies, it's still amazing.

Also, I've never found HiPS to be especially needed in my SA builds. It's very, very nice, but I've gotten along fine without it.

I'd like to second the idea of tossing in a swordsage level or several. Note that the Shadow Hand teleportation maneuver doesn't have any "maneuvers known" prerequisites, just initiate level ones. And your rogue levels count as 1/2 initiate levels... :smallbiggrin:

Yami
2007-12-16, 01:25 AM
I have a certain fondness for the Shadow blade style rouge myself. My version of it dibs into scout, seeing as there is a feat that allows your rouge levels to stack with scout levels for purposes of increasing skirmish. The idea is to take scout until you can grab the feat (level 5, I believe) and then level rouge, so that at the high levels you deal both sneak attack and get good skirmish bonuses.

You'll still be pretty squishy though, so you might want to look into your longevity.