Template CR's and how they're broken?

[CopperElfCleric]

So I create many homebrew classes, PrCs and Templates. I think I do a pretty good job at it, but when looking at some Canon material I second guess all my stuff. For example...

A Lich is a CR +2
A Werewolf is a CR +2
A Shade is a CR +3
A Werewolf Lord is a CR +4
A Shadow-Walker is a CR +1.

Anything seem broken to you? It seems most, if not all these templates have the wrong CRs. A lich is only a +2CR? A Shade is only +3? Yet a Werewolf Lord is a +4 CR?

Anyone want to help me out with this?

[JNAProductions]

CR is just plain borked.
Even if any given CR X monster was the reasonable equivalent of any other CR X monster, a party might be able to steamroll them four levels below X, or might suffer a TPK five levels above X.

Your best bet, in my opinion, is to actually look at the party you're running a monster or monsters for, and tailor accordingly.
If you're setting up a sandbox or hexcrawl or something, then hopefully you have at least a general idea of how hard your players optimize, and can peg difficulty accordingly.

[ShurikVch]

I tent to agree: Challenge Ratings are full of strange examples

But let me defend it for a bit:
Lich template is intended for full casters - which are, at the level to qualify, already dangerous as heck; in this case, Lich template don't adds that much to the encounter; if Lich template is applied to a "beatstick" (somehow) - it wouldn't add even for +2 (considering all the lost hp from "Con -", it may be even penalizing)

Lycanthropy increases CR depending on HD number of the "base animal" - thus, "normal" Wolf gives +2, Dire Wolf - +4 (no such template as "Werewolf Lord"!), and Legendary Wolf - +5. This template is good for a "beatstick", but borderline useless for a full caster

If you want truly weird example, Paragon Rat (23 hp) is CR 18 - the same as Father Llymic...

[Beni-Kujaku]

I... Don't really see how that's broken. The Lich template is really not that overpowered that it would require CR+3. Becoming Undead with all the immunities is probably CR+1, then the DR, the small increase to ability scores and natural armor make for another point of CR, but the touch attacks are really not something that an undead spellcaster should be doing anyway in combat, they should be casting spells. It's either a kinda strong +2 or a weak +3, and they had to make a choice. A Shade gains many, many more numerical bonuses to attack and damage rolls, saving throws, the ability to teleport at will, fast healing and good SR, but no real means of attack. Once again, I could maybe see it at CR+2, but CR+3 does not seem far-fetched at all. And for the Werewolf Lord, the creature actually gains 6 animal RHD, with all the HP, BAB and feats it entails, plus the stats, and the DR. 6 Animal RHD are already about 1.5 points of CR, the lycanthrope abilities (DR, infecting PCs, shapechanging...) are probably worth one more point, and the generally high animal stats make up for the rest. The Werewolf Lord may be on the very lower end of CR+4, and you could argue it should be CR+3 (maybe, but even then it has a lot of things going for it), but you have to remember that 6 RHD is the lowest amount of RHD for which Lycanthrope gives CR+4. A Werewolf Lord (Dire Werewolf) is at the bottom, while the were-Giant Banded Lizard from Sandstorm is at the top (and I would probably say that that one should probably be CR+5). That's really all there is to it : they defined the CR of the Lycanthrope template through the number of RHD of the animal in question, which is generally a good indication of how much something will gain in power. Having even more accurate CR would require assigning CR to each were-animal individually rather than having a single line giving the approximate CR depending on one of the animal's characteristics.

I'm a bit tired to see people say that the CR system is borked when it is surprisingly solid considering the absolute mess that is this game and the immense number of released books. At the very least it is extremely consistent despite the difference between the playstyle of all the monsters. I'm not saying it is flawless, there are some under- or over-CRed monsters out there, and template-stacking and monsters with class levels obviously exacerbate these issues (if two templates should be CR+2.5 and rated as CR+2, obviously stacking them gives an official CR of +4 rather than their actual value of +5, and that's not counting synergy or anti-synergy), but your examples do not seem at all a part of the problem to me.

[CopperElfCleric]

Thank you. And yes Werewolf Lord is a actual canon template. D20SRD has it on their website.

[Biggus]

I agree with the others that the above templates aren't especially inaccurate. I disagree that CR is generally not useful, although there are certainly plenty of examples where they got it wrong (the ones which are way off are mostly in 3.0 books though).


Thank you. And yes Werewolf Lord is a actual canon template. D20SRD has it on their website.

Werewolf lord isn't a separate template:


Challenge Rating

By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base animal: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6.

[Saintheart]

Just a note that the Werewolf Lord's stats -- that being a 10th level fighter who then gets a notional CR +4 since a Fighter 10 is CR 10 under WOTC's system -- aren't way below the average stats of a CR 14 monster, at least as far as the MM 1 is concerned. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623578-3-5-Average-Monster-Stats-UPDATED-TABLE&highlight=average+monster+AC+BAB)

The statistically average CR 14 monster has 180 hitpoints, +4.5 Initiative, 27 AC, Touch AC 11, Flatfooted AC 25.17, BAB +16.17, Fort +15.92, Ref +11.83, Will +14.

The Werewolf Lord's corresponding stats: 132 hp, +4 Initiative at best, AC 19 (but 26 in human form due to his gear), Flatfooted AC 11, BAB +14, Fort +17, Ref +12, Will +11. The hitpoints and AC hurt a lot in hybrid form, but the designers probably thought DR 10/silver made up for that in some degree.