Would Bloodfeast shrink again on leaving the anti-magic field?

[halfeye]

I seem to be seeing people write that Bloodfeast will shrink again on leaving the anti-magic field, and I can't imagine why people think that.

I don't know D&D at all, but it seems to me that Bloodfeast's steady state is huge? large? and he was baleful polymorphed to small, but the anti-magic field broke that, so now he should be full sized all the time again.

[Naysmith]

I seem to be seeing people write that Bloodfeast will shrink again on leaving the anti-magic field, and I can't imagine why people think that.

Antimagic Field suppresses magic and stops new magic from being cast. It doesn't dispel the polymorph. That'd be Break Enchantment (or [Greater] Dispel Magic as the spell was being cast.) Once Bloodfeast leaves the field, the polymoph spell is no longer being suppressed, and takes effect again.

[RatElemental]

Antimagic Field suppresses magic and stops new magic from being cast. It doesn't dispel the polymorph. That'd be Break Enchantment (or [Greater] Dispel Magic as the spell was being cast.) Once Bloodfeast leaves the field, the polymoph spell is no longer being suppressed, and takes effect again.

Disjunction would also work, but that'd be like trying to open a stubborn pickle jar with a nuclear warhead.

Though anything Break Enchantment can remove so can Greater Dispel Magic, and I'm not sure I'm following where normal Dispel Magic couldn't break Baleful Polymorph anyway.

[Naysmith]

Disjunction would also work, but that'd be like trying to open a stubborn pickle jar with a nuclear warhead.

Though anything Break Enchantment can remove so can Greater Dispel Magic, and I'm not sure I'm following where normal Dispel Magic couldn't break Baleful Polymorph anyway.
It's been a while since I read the spells, so I was erring on the side of caution.

[OvisCaedo]

I wonder why Belkar HASN'T had someone dispel magic on the polymorph by now. I guess the full sized dinosaur would just be very difficult to travel with.

[Emberlily]

yeah there hasn't been much opportunity for that yet. they spent a while relying on an airship where even a tiger onboard was pushing it, and then immediately went to a stealth scouting mission that became a dangerous trek thru narrow dungeons

[RatElemental]

It's been a while since I read the spells, so I was erring on the side of caution.

I figured they'd made Baleful Polymorph instantaneous in 5e or something, so I was similarly trying to hedge my bets a little.

[Tzardok]

I figured they'd made Baleful Polymorph instantaneous in 5e or something, so I was similarly trying to hedge my bets a little.

The comic is still 3.5. How the spell works in 5e is irrelevant.

[Peelee]

I don't know D&D at all

Because that's how ot works in D&D. Which many people explicitly pointed out when they made the claim.

[KorvinStarmast]

I figured they'd made Baleful Polymorph instantaneous in 5e or something It's not a spell in 5e.

[RatElemental]

The comic is still 3.5. How the spell works in 5e is irrelevant.

Some people may be more used to 5e by now and basing their expectations on it. I have a bit of the opposite problem when playing with groups now because I expect, say, flanking to be a thing in 5e when it isn't because it was in 3.pf.

I was trying to understand where Naysmith was coming from.

[halfeye]

Because that's how ot works in D&D. Which many people explicitly pointed out when they made the claim.

It seems over convenient to me. The party now has a smal, portable, easy to feed Allosaurus on tap. Things are rarely that simple, especially in OOTS.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It seems over convenient to me. The party now has a smal, portable, easy to feed Allosaurus on tap. Things are rarely that simple, especially in OOTS.

Because until Sunny, it wasn't 'on tap.' It was under a Permanent effect that would require a spell to undo and once it was done, the 'small, portable and easy to feed' are no longer relevant or accurate. It is only now, with Sunny and her free to use, easy to aim Anti-Magic cone that they can unleash it easily and on a whim without fully breaking the effect making it small, portable and easy to feed.

[Provengreil]

It seems over convenient to me. The party now has a smal, portable, easy to feed Allosaurus on tap. Things are rarely that simple, especially in OOTS.

You're right: they're rarely that simple. And sure enough, effectively getting Bloodfeast into the fray is not actually simple. The difficulty here is the set of conditions that they can actually get an allosaur in.

In order to reverse the baleful polymorph, you would need either break enchantment or greater dispel magic*. If you do this, you're kinda stuck with the logistics of having a full grown allosaur with you: not ideal for an otherwise unprepared party, doubly so in the arctic, and probably a part of why they haven't tried yet. Also, you'd need to roll high, given that the counterspell has to overcome a caster level check against a DC of 26 at the very least. This means that dispelling to pop him out in the middle of combat is a high risk maneuver as it can completely waste a turn and a 6th level spell slot**, and break enchantment also has a 1 minute casting time (10 turns) and as such isn't really a viable mid combat strategy, further limiting dino deployment options.

An antimagic field can suppress the polymorph without ending it: good for logistics, but it comes with its own problems. It'll also turn off all other magic in the area. So while this can be a good thing, it's a trade of one advantage for another, never just a flat benefit to the Order. Even then, they only have easy access to it through Sunny's eye: Durkon may or may not even have a high enough level to cast it and there's no evidence Vaarsuvious, who is high enough, has learned the spell. So they're not only using Sunny's unique powers here, limiting Sunny to that particular job, but also by definition having him on the battlefield. Not an option if our heroes can avoid it, per Roy's own words.


*A standard dispel magic might work, but the odds are terrible even at the lowest DC the check might be. It all depends on how strong Miron actually is, and all we have to go on is that he could cast horrid wilting: minimum 15th level caster but could plausibly be higher.

**You said you don't play D&D, so just to be clear: the 6th level of spells contains some of the stronger combat and healing spells the party has access to, spells which are in sharply limited supply per day. Using one on a big maybe is not only a potential waste of combat turns but a significant investment in the day's power allotment.

[gbaji]

I think the simple answer to the OP's question is "that's exactly how the rules for anti magic fields in D&D work".

The broader answer is that: yes, they could absolutely have removed the baleful polymorph spell by now if they wanted to. I'm not aware that there is an attempt restriction on using dispell (greater or otherwise) to try to remove the effect, and there's been plenty of time to just try this over and over until successful if they wanted to. The problem with that, as others have stated, is that for the entire time period since Bloodfeast was polymorphed, they have been living on an airship (so turning him back into his full sized form would be problematic), or traveling through dwarven tunnels (same problem), or wandering through the backstage area of the Hollow (same problem), or wandering around inside the Final Dungeon (and the same problem again).

And honestly? Since they met Sunny, the ability to be able to point the antimagic eyebeam at some spot/enemy and *then* toss Bloodfeast into the area is a vastly better tactical move than spending spell slots (possibly a number of them) to have him full sized all the time. It's clear that Bloodfeast made his will save after the first 24 hours (he seems to retain his memories, hitpoints, and hitdice), so there's not much harm in keeping him in this form, and a lot of advantage. I would assume that once they have found a suitable home for him, he'll be restored to his normal form. But at least for the time beinng, it's just not practical

[Doctor West]

An antimagic field can suppress the polymorph without ending it: good for logistics, but it comes with its own problems. It'll also turn off all other magic in the area. So while this can be a good thing, it's a trade of one advantage for another, never just a flat benefit to the Order. Even then, they only have easy access to it through Sunny's eye: Durkon may or may not even have a high enough level to cast it and there's no evidence Vaarsuvious, who is high enough, has learned the spell. So they're not only using Sunny's unique powers here, limiting Sunny to that particular job, but also by definition having him on the battlefield. Not an option if our heroes can avoid it, per Roy's own words.

A small, mildly off-topic point of order, Roy's objection was to Eugene-as-Julia's suggestion of intentionally using Sunny to draw fire, not to having him on the battlefield at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

{scrubbed}

[woweedd]

Evidently, yes.

[Timy]

I seem to be seeing people write that Bloodfeast will shrink again on leaving the anti-magic field, and I can't imagine why people think that.

I don't know D&D at all, but it seems to me that Bloodfeast's steady state is huge? large? and he was baleful polymorphed to small, but the anti-magic field broke that, so now he should be full sized all the time again.

I am from the future.

Yes, he will !

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1300.html

[halfeye]

I am from the future.

Yes, he will !

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1300.html

We're all from the future now, I still don't like it.

[DavidSh]

Would it be appropriate to lock a thread that speculates about something that has since come to pass? Otherwise, we might get non-sequiturs about chocolate.

[Blue Dragon]

We're all from the future now, I still don't like it.

I'll inform our stenographer.

[Provengreil]

What you said:


Would it be appropriate to lock a thread that speculates about something that has since come to pass? Otherwise, we might get non-sequiturs about chocolate.

What I heard:


I want to autolock every thread that reaches page 3.

[DavidSh]

What you said:

What I heard:

Now that the post about chocolate has been removed, I suppose you could read my post that way. I think some topics can actually support lengthy on-topic conversations. Just not this one.

[Kardwill]

A small, mildly off-topic point of order, Roy's objection was to Eugene-as-Julia's suggestion of intentionally using Sunny to draw fire, not to having him on the battlefield at all.

That would still put Sunny in the center of attention. As seen with his objection to the "zap Xykon with the cone" plan, Roy thinks that the kid would not survive long against the kind of opposition the Order is likely to fight nowadays (and he's right : Calder just casually one-shot Sunny with one of his secondary attacks).
So, it's not that "convenient : The insta-Allosorus plan resolves on keeping a child on a battlefield where he can die in one round when the enemy gets serious.

[Provengreil]

Now that the post about chocolate has been removed, I suppose you could read my post that way. I think some topics can actually support lengthy on-topic conversations. Just not this one.

I probably should have used sarcasm blue, that was meant to be lighthearted.

[Charity322]

Hijacking the thread now it's been resolved as I'm a little puzzled. I looked up Baleful Polymorph and it said:

Once changed, the target remained in the new form for an indefinite time. Whatever form the new one was, if the target did not find a way to revert its form in twenty-four hours, its mental faculties degenerated to those of the new form.

Back when V was polymorphed wasn't it greater than 24 hours before they were cured? Seeing as they had to wait until Durkon rested and got his spells back.

[Kardwill]

Back when V was polymorphed wasn't it greater than 24 hours before they were cured? Seeing as they had to wait until Durkon rested and got his spells back.

IIRC, Durkon prays for his spells at dawn? So, if the Hag and Dragon encounters happened the same day, it had been less than 24h. (Otherwise, V would have been a lot more concerned with the idea of loosing his precious intellect)

[gbaji]

The party very specifically did not stop to camp between encountering the Hag and the dragon, even though that was what V expected them to do (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html). Regardless of specific timing, it's clear that both encounters occured in a single cycle of spell recovery for Durkon (so less than 24 hours).

Given that suggestion has a duration of one hour per caster level, we could probably come up with even more specific timing (not sure what V's level was then). Not necessary to do this, but kinda interesting anyway.

[Tzardok]

Hijacking the thread now it's been resolved as I'm a little puzzled. I looked up Baleful Polymorph and it said:

Once changed, the target remained in the new form for an indefinite time. Whatever form the new one was, if the target did not find a way to revert its form in twenty-four hours, its mental faculties degenerated to those of the new form.

Back when V was polymorphed wasn't it greater than 24 hours before they were cured? Seeing as they had to wait until Durkon rested and got his spells back.

In addition to what was already said, I'm not sure where you got that text. In the SRD it says:


If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended.

So even if it was 24 hours, V is a wizard and has pretty good Will saves.

[Kish]

Well, as it turns out, this scene does indeed feature the removal of the Baleful Polymorph spell, just not in a way that doesn't fit with D&D rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, as it turns out, this scene does indeed feature the removal of the Baleful Polymorph spell, just not in a way that doesn't fit with D&D rules. Your double negative tells me that it's well within bounds. :smallcool:

[Precure]

Vaarsuvius just signed Bloodfeast's execution order by returning it back to normal. :smalleek:

[Ionathus]

Vaarsuvius just signed Bloodfeast's execution order by returning it back to normal. :smalleek:

Alternate theory:

When they kill Calder, he drops (from where? :smallamused:) a scroll of Baleful Polymorph. V learns and prepares it, then Bloodfeast becomes The Amazing Resizing Lizard as they shrink and expand him every time they move to a new room!

[RatElemental]

Alternate theory:

When they kill Calder, he drops (from where? :smallamused:) a scroll of Baleful Polymorph. V learns and prepares it, then Bloodfeast becomes The Amazing Resizing Lizard as they shrink and expand him every time they move to a new room!

There is the reduce animal spell, which is on the ranger spell list.

Bellkar's wisdom being the way it is, however...

[Lord Torath]

Vaarsuvius just signed Bloodfeast's execution order by returning it back to normal. :smalleek:V probably has Polymorph Other prepared (panel 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html)), as pointed out in the 1301 discussion thread. Bloodfeast doesn't need to be trapped here.

[Synesthesy]

There is the reduce animal spell, which is on the ranger spell list.

Bellkar's wisdom being the way it is, however...

Well, maybe he gained some wisdom after all he went through.... This may be the point of this encounter....

[Witty Username]

It's not a spell in 5e.

Sorta, Polymorph in 5e is as I understand it thematically the old Baleful polymorph and regular polymorph put together.

As for 3.5 vs 5e, as I recall Rich has switched primarily to gaming jokes and doesn't consult the rules of a particular edition anymore, if I recall my physical books correctly. Trending 3.5 because that is the one he is the most familiar with.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorta, Polymorph in 5e is as I understand it thematically the old Baleful polymorph and regular polymorph put together.
No.

True Polymorph (level 9) was that in the first printing of the PHB: you can turn something into something else permanently. But they screwed up even that. It now can be dispelled.

Polymorph (4th level) in 5e lasts 1 hour. You can only turn something into a beast.