Dispel magic minutiae

[VinnythePooh]

I'm having trouble getting a straight answer here. Let's say I have a ring of counterspell with greater dispel magic in it. If some demon casts that spell or even regular dispel magic at me is it then automatically counterspelled? I'm trying to find a way to block high level beings from screwing my magic up.

[Tzardok]

If someone cast Greater Dispell Magic at you, it would be automatically counterspelled. The normal Dispell Magic wouldn't; a spell can only serve as an counterspell against exactly the same spell, and Dispell Magic is a different spell.

[Zancloufer]

Reading the SRD entry on the Ring;

. . .
Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part.
. . .

The counter-spell action specifies that you need to use either the same spell back, or you can use Dispel Magic. The ring just let's you cast one spell in it ahead of time and in exchange you can counterspell as a free action. As such by RAW it would 100% block Greater Dispel Magic. This gets a little weird with normal Dispel Magic as it's technically a different spell. By RAW you could argue that it requires a successful CL check to counter it's weaker version.

RAI it should work guaranteed as Greater Dispel Magic is said to be the same expert it's 3 spell levels higher, allows for up to +20 to the check and can counter curse effects. Both version of Dispel Magic can also counter-spell other spells, though you need a Dispel Check. As such I would argue that it should work for all equal/lower level versions of Dispel Magic though require a CL check against more powerful variants.

Edit [Swordsaged];

If someone cast Greater Dispell Magic at you, it would be automatically counterspelled. The normal Dispell Magic wouldn't; a spell can only serve as an counterspell against exactly the same spell, and Dispell Magic is a different spell.
Dispel Magic explicitly says it CAN counter other spells, albeit with a successful CL check.

[Tzardok]

RAI it should work guaranteed as Greater Dispel Magic is said to be the same expert it's 3 spell levels higher, allows for up to +20 to the check and can counter curse effects. Both version of Dispel Magic can also counter-spell other spells, though you need a Dispel Check. As such I would argue that it should work for all equal/lower level versions of Dispel Magic though require a CL check against more powerful variants.


This is the opposite of RAI. The Player's Handbook says that in general a spell can only counterspell itself, not spells that are variants of itself. As an example it lists Delayed Blast Fireball as unable to counter Fireball and vice versa. This is one of the many cases where clarifying text or examples weren's reproduced in the SRD.

Edit:


Dispel Magic explicitly says it CAN counter other spells, albeit with a successful CL check.
That is true, but irrelvant for the ring. The text of the ring says:

Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part.

"That spell" means the spell stored in the ring. The ring doesn't even react if not that specific spell is cast on the wearer.

[Zancloufer]

Not sure if one of us failed at writing their point, but anyway;


This is the opposite of RAI.

Uh, no it isn't? I agreed with your point that by RAW it should only work on Greater Dispel Magic and any other interpretation would be RAI. IE; I am extrapolating a rule for something that exists in something of a gray zone.


The Player's Handbook says that in general a spell can only counterspell itself, not spells that are variants of itself. As an example it lists Delayed Blast Fireball as unable to counter Fireball and vice versa. This is one of the many cases where clarifying text or examples weren's reproduced in the SRD.

Yes it says that only the same spell can counter-spell. It then goes into an example using Delayed Blast Fireball. It then counteracts that entire explanation saying that Dispel Magic can work, you don't have to identify and it might not work (See spell the description). Then Dispel Magic says it can be used as a counter-spell but must pass the Dispel/CL check (DC 11+enemy CL).
(Greater) Dispel Magic side steps the entire two paragraphs talking about identifying the spell and it having to be the same, just that you need to make a Dispel Check instead. That is where RAI comes in, (Greater) Dispel Magic says it can counter-spell spells other than it's self.
The RAW mess happens when you attempt to Counter Spell Dispel Magic with Dispel Magic. Which set of rules to you use? Do you have to make a Dispel check always? Only if you don't identify it? IF you don't identify it BUT it turns out to be dispel magic do you still have to make the CL check?>





That is true, but irrelvant for the ring. The text of the ring says:

"That spell" means the spell stored in the ring. The ring doesn't even react if not that specific spell is cast on the wearer.

I suppose I could try and argue the exact definition of "That". Still that might be decent argument. I suppose one should ask their DM about it in how exact "That" has to be.

[Tzardok]

Uh, no it isn't? I agreed with your point that by RAW it should only work on Greater Dispel Magic and any other interpretation would be RAI. IE; I am extrapolating a rule for something that exists in something of a gray zone.



Yes it says that only the same spell can counter-spell. It then goes into an example using Delayed Blast Fireball. It then counteracts that entire explanation saying that Dispel Magic can work, you don't have to identify and it might not work (See spell the description). Then Dispel Magic says it can be used as a counter-spell but must pass the Dispel/CL check (DC 11+enemy CL).
(Greater) Dispel Magic side steps the entire two paragraphs talking about identifying the spell and it having to be the same, just that you need to make a Dispel Check instead. That is where RAI comes in, (Greater) Dispel Magic says it can counter-spell spells other than it's self.
The RAW mess happens when you attempt to Counter Spell Dispel Magic with Dispel Magic. Which set of rules to you use? Do you have to make a Dispel check always? Only if you don't identify it? IF you don't identify it BUT it turns out to be dispel magic do you still have to make the CL check?>
.

I do not see where your problem is. There is no RAW mess or grey zone. We have two rules here (actually three, but let's ignore that opposed spells like Haste and Slow can counter each other). One says "Any spell can be modified to counter itself, but you need to identify it", the other says "Dispell Magic can counter other spells, even unidentified ones, by making a dispell check". So its obvious that if I identify an opponent's Dispell Magic, I can automatically counter it using my own without making a dispell check. If I fail to identify it, I can still use my Dispell Magic to counter it, but I need to make a dispell check. Easy as pie.
Now, if I don't have Dispell Magic prepared, only Greater Dispell Magic, I can't apply the first rule to automatically counter my opponent's Dispell Magic, because Greater Dispell Magic and Dispell Magic are not the same spell. Even if I manage to identify the spell, I still need to apply rule number and make a dispell check.

And that's why I said it's the opposite of RAI: because you came up with ruling that Greater Dispell Magic automatically counters Dispell Magic without a roll, despite the spell's effect not saying so and the general rules stating the opposite.
Edit: Like, I don't have a problem if you think that's how it should be and make it a houserule, but calling it "RAI" when the example tells us that its not intended that way is simply wrong. RANI, so to speak.

[GeoffWatson]

You're all missing the point. The OP asked about using a ring of counterspells, not counterspelling as a ready action.

[Troacctid]

The Ring of Counterspells specifically requires it to be the exact same spell. Greater Dispel will counter a Greater Dispel, but not a regular Dispel.

You might be interested in a Rod of Absorption as a more expensive alternative that can work against both. It doesn't stop area dispels, but if you've got a big stack of buffs on yourself, I assume you're probably most worried about targeted dispels anyway. There's also the cheaper Rod of Reversal, or the more expensive Ring of Spell Turning, or Rod of the Twisted Weave.

[Zancloufer]

Something that came to me, as I spent too much time thinking of it you could counter Dispel Magic with it's greater version, that I forgot it you even should.

(Greater) Dispel Magic requires you to make a CL check against a CL+11 for the spell you are trying to remove. This means that for a equal power spell it only has a 40% success rate and must check for each spell countered. Dispel Magic caps at +10, which is just before the greater version comes online at level 11.

If you are high enough level to cast Greater Dispel your CL is at least 11, which means normal Dispel only has a 35% chance (Per spell) to even work. Boosting your CL to 18+ will outright shutdown Dispel Magic as such you would have no need to counter it. This or the Rod of Absorption are probably the more practical options as most Outsiders that can cast Dispel do it at will and as such could just burst you down by spamming it.

[Chronos]

There are also other ways to protect against area dispels. For instance, just put a big huge pile of Magic Mouth spells on yourself (the trigger and what it says are irrelevant, though I suppose you might as well use some of them for useful things like alerting you to pickpockets). An area dispel only dispels one spell on you, and the odds are it'll be one of the many Magic Mouths that you don't care about anyway.