Undead Leadership and mindless followers

[Samael Morgenst]

In the Libris Mortis there's the option to get zombies and skeletons as followers... which does not makes much sense.
Mindless undead are not followers, they are controlled in a quite specific way through the appropriate spells or a cleric Rebuke Undead class feature.

Yet I found that spell, in the Libris Mortis , that gives a low - but humanlike - intelligence to previously mindless undeads (6 to 10 at best if I remember well). Their Charisma is not mentioned to change so I guess it stays at 1.


AWAKEN UNDEAD
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Deathbound 6, sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: M, S, V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: All mindless undead within a
circle 25 ft. in radius + 5 ft./2 levels
Duration: Permanent (D)
Saving Throw: None (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell grants intelligence to mindless
undead such as skeletons and zombies.
Undead with Intelligence scores are
unaffected. Mindless undead within
the radius gain Intelligence 4+1d6.
Undead cannot gain more intelligence
than typical of their original kind. A
skeletal dog simply has Intelligence 2,
while a skeletal orc makes the die roll
but can’t have more than Intelligence 8.
Undead do not regain any skills or feats
they had in life.
Undead regain the armor and weapon
profi ciencies they had in life (assume
the undead were formerly warriors
unless your DM specifi es otherwise)
and will don armor and take up weapons while obeying your commands. A
zombie fi ghter can wear any armor and
wield any simple or martial weapon,
while a zombie warhorse can wear any
armor.
Undead also regain any extraordinary
abilities they had in life, such as poison
or scent.
Awakened undead gain a +2 profane
bonus on their Will saving throws to
resist control undead. Awakened undead
also gain +2 turn resistance (or retain
their own turn resistance, if any, and if
it is better than +2).
Material Component: A humanoid
fi ngerbone.
XP Cost: 200 XP.

How would they behave?
Would they be able to speak? Reason? Learn, mabye?

[Curse]

Do you mean the feat "Undead Leadership"?
If so the text says "undead followers" and not specifically only skeletons and zombies. So any undead with an int score would be possible in principal and following the rules for leadership from the DMG you could build your undead cohort in accordance with DM approval.

Building your fellowship by awakening them would seem to be one very solid way of doing it - it seems far easier than finding them "just so" and you can assume that they will be open to communication as you gave them (back) their mind. While in the non-undead awaken spell there is an explicit statement that the awakened being is inclined to follow your expressed desires, this is not the case for awakened undead. Once you have the undead leadership feat you would be able to convince them though and if you encounter other intelligent undead who are free to join you that would be an option, too.

[redking]

Awaken Undead not giving any Charisma is really unfortunate.

[Samael Morgenst]

Another thing...

since the original souls are gone...
were does those minds come from?

Is a soulless sentient mind possible?

Could a character be playable even if he loses his soul?
Could a character lose his soul but not his mind?

[Wintermoot]

Another thing...

since the original souls are gone...
were does those minds come from?

Is a soulless sentient mind possible?

Could a character be playable even if he loses his soul?
Could a character lose his soul but not his mind?

The spell mentions that they gain the weapon and armor proficiencies they had in life, so presumably the intelligence is modelled after the departed consciousness of the body form itself.

Consider that the spell simply suffuses the corpus with necromantic energies that scrape the residue of the departed soul off the lymph nodes and emulate the echo of it. So its a poor Xerox of a Xerox of the original soul giving it a facsimile of the originals intelligence and knowledges.

Or, consider the webcomic this forum is hosted with. Perhaps the consciousness that inhabits the undead is crafted to purpose on demand by the god(s) of magic that serve that need, like the vampires in OOTS.

as for the last questions, popular culture has many stories that portray different outcomes for "you lose your soul". Sometimes the person continues on as normal, sometimes, they grow cruel and capricious, sometimes they start acting hollowed out and lose any zest for life. I don't think there is a solid final answer, you'll have to make something up.

[Samael Morgenst]

And...

another thought...
a soul in a receptacle has no body, no consciousness and no intelligence.

But a petitioner has a body, albeit not very substantial, and an intelligence.

So, it may be that a soul is the repository of experience and knowledge, but it needs a body, a vessel, to use that knowledge in any way?

To use a metaphor, the soul is the software, the body is the hardware, the intelligence is the interaction between software and hardware?

And the imprint on a dead body, what it could be? The residual cookies mabye.

[Samael Morgenst]

But even then, what is the "self"? The body, the soul, the mind, all three together? When exactly a being ceases to exist?

[Buufreak]

When you throw the character sheet away.