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MalachorWraith
2007-12-15, 11:30 AM
The way it started was that everyone just kept on inviting a friend and then they enjoyed it. We are up to 11 people and just about everyone is at level three now. I'm tending to send larger amounts of smaller creatures after them. Plus not everyone is there so the group is anywhere from 6 to 9 to 11 at any given point. This next game they are fighting an 8 headed hyrdra with 75 hit points (I rolled it up) being controlled by a cleric (homebrewed mechanics but I make him make concentration checks when he takes damage) to capture them for a bounty. I'm not doing the Sunder thing and instead giving the heads an AC of 16 and respective hitpoints because I had enough trouble converting everyone to 3.5 from 2.0 let alone trying to enforce every attack of opportunity. It still has all its other hyrda qualities plus a web breath weapon (handles as a ranged touched attack) and spider climb. This is the party.

1. Rogue 2 / Sorc 1
2. Cleric 3
3. Fighter 3
4. Barbarian 3
5. Barbarian 3
6. Warlock 3
7. Fighter 3
8. Rogue 3
9. Monk 3
10. Ranger 3
11. Ranger 3

The team has ability scores that are rather high. There is a barbarian right now who through some homebrew got a score of 20 in strength. Everyone is fairly balanced though in the game as a party, but they are heavier than most lvl 3's. Any tips for setting up encounters for a heavy large party. I'm working on a handful of BBEG's as we speak.

Shraik
2007-12-15, 11:33 AM
I would sugggest dividing the group into two and dm'ing one group every other Week.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-15, 11:37 AM
1) Combat should probably kept at a minimum.
2) You should pretty much never send them against one monster at a time.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-15, 11:37 AM
We're going twice a week usually with whoever shows up but its going to cut down to every other week pretty soon with the holidays coming up. Still, I want tips for dealing with the large group, not simply dividing them. As a whole the game still moves along pretty smoothly, even with a lot of people.

Maxymiuk
2007-12-15, 11:39 AM
Yeah, either split them up or get a co-GM to help, so that during conversations and such other people can still do stuff without being bored.

As for the hydra encounter... well, it all comes down to who wins initiative. If it's the monster, expect a couple deaths. If it's the party... that critter's gibbets. Bloody chunks.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-15, 12:25 PM
Well technically I do have a second DM because he's doing most of the story elements while I'm doing most of the math.

Do you really think its such a matter of initiative? I mean it has 75 hp and fast healing + an AC of 18. Will it really hit the "bloody chunks" measure that fast? I gave the hyrdra improved grab instead of toughness so its going to be holding down a lot of people and webbing them. I know that there will be people going unconscious fairly quickly but I don't expect the PC's to be knocking it out of the park so fast. Plus it regenerates the heads. I was expecting anywhere from 5-10 solid combat rounds to be quite honest.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-15, 12:31 PM
Maybe, especially combined with the 2-DM option, you should check out Ben Robbins idea on his blog Ars Ludi. The idea he titled "West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/)", and it's very much something I'd like to try myself.

On another note
Do you really think its such a matter of initiative? I mean it has 75 hp and fast healing + an AC of 18. Will it really hit the "bloody chunks" measure that fast?

Yes. The game is balanced to a four-player party, and you have almost three times that.

kpenguin
2007-12-15, 01:56 PM
Don't

But seriously, split up the group. What I've done before is have two different parties loosely affiliated with each other work on different areas of the plot. They had seperate sessions and we did one big one when they all faced the BBEG.

Bedlam
2007-12-15, 02:02 PM
I'm currently in a group which isfeveryone turns up would have 15 players. I don't think it would work for a system intense game like D&D. It works quite well for more personal plot based games wike WOD partucularly if the group sub devides itself in some way so that groups of 2-4 keep talking amoung themselves planning individual things and just meet up to all interact occasionally. Also if most of the combat is planning before hand with most of the actual fighting just being run through by the GM i.e. Bob, Phill, George and Ringo your characters charge into the eneimies from behind taking them be suprise and spend the next 4 turns killing them all mark of ~1/4 of your HP each.

Eldmor
2007-12-15, 02:37 PM
I've found that 6 is the absolute maximum you can stretch D&D. Divide the 11 into 6 and 5. Train one of each of those groups how to DM. That way you have a co-DM and 5 players and Group B has a DM and 4 players.
I tried DMing 7-8 people and everything came down to an absolute grind. 11 must be some sort of layer of the Abysss. The layer of Ludicrous DMing Ability.

GoldDragon
2007-12-15, 02:42 PM
Maybe, especially combined with the 2-DM option, you should check out Ben Robbins idea on his blog Ars Ludi. The idea he titled "West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/)", and it's very much something I'd like to try myself.

On another note

Yes. The game is balanced to a four-player party, and you have almost three times that.

I second the West Marches idea.

SilverClawShift
2007-12-15, 03:23 PM
We recently added a 6th player. It significantly slowed down proceedings enough that at first we thought it wasn't going to work. Eventually everything found a way to fit together, and things are running smoothly now, but we're STILL discussing going back to 5 players with the co-DM spot rotating around us.

My point is, I can't imagine adding a 7th player. Or an 8th. or a 9th.

Holy crap, ELEVEN?!

Ye gods. The amount of caffeine in the air alone would make the room toxic to nearby small animals. And the seating, and the rolling, and keeping track of everything, and... holy crap.

I don't know where you'd even start.

If I may, can I ask why splitting up the groups isn't an option? Eleven people and two DMs... you have enough bodies there for 4 simultaneous small games, 3 simultaneous decent sized games, or 2 simultaneous LARGE games.
The only thing I will say, is having 1 player be each of the core classes (in the middle of a war or something) would be a pretty interesting game.

Premier
2007-12-15, 03:35 PM
- Appoint one player as the caller. The caller's task is to collect the plans of actions from every player and than lay it out to the DM in one neat, tidy, thought-out sequence. Much easier for the DM to handle than everyone shouting their ideas at the same time and constantly changing it in reaction to each other.

- Use a different game system. 3E is just simply not suitable for this many players at once, other systems (including other D&D systems) are. You don't go on that family wilderness weekend with your Volkswagen bug.

Triaxx
2007-12-15, 04:26 PM
11 is only too many in town. When the group approaches town, check the time in game, and give them until dawn to do anything they want. Have everyone scribble a list of what they're going to do, so you can put things together. Say the Fighters, and Barbarians decide to shop for armor, and then go carousing. The monk and cleric decide to sleep early. The Rogues go to check out the local thieves guild. The rangers prowl the rooftops. With a written list of activities, you have the whereabouts of everyone.

When it comes time for combat, that's when it gets easy. Get numbers and put them in a pile. Roll initative and after you find out who has what initiative, give out numbers accordingly. That way you can go in order without all the general shouting and snarling that results otherwise. This way everyone can watch what happens before. Careful with that Hydra. If those Rogues go first, they get Sneak Attack damage, and they'll plow it under in very short order.

Yes, CHUNKS.

valadil
2007-12-15, 07:00 PM
Set a new maximum number of players. I suggest 6, but 8 could work too. Until you're down to that number, when a player dies he doesn't come back with a new character. The other players can wait in line until there's a spot.

It sounds harsh, but I've seen some very successful games run this way.

One big advantage is that death is scarier. It's always annoyed me how fearless D&D characters are, and something like this would help with that quite a bit.

Yami
2007-12-16, 01:34 AM
Gaather up some of your less used dice. The d4's and the d8's. Perhaps you could add a few d6's to the group.

Then throw them onto your battle mat. Tell the party they see orcs.

Continue play with the survivors.


So, other advice; keep things from derailing too much. Some people wont be paying attention, which is fine, but know whose turn it is, etc, and keep the game moving. If you get bogged down, they all do.

Don't repeat yourself for the players, let those who were listening when you told them about the traps and the loot inform the rest. It allows you to keep the game moving, rather than having one fight before the day ends and tomorrow looms.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-16, 02:11 AM
Very few times have I had an occasion to have that many players...you really have only two options... divide and have them act as separate units to accomplish a goal, or mass numbers of enemies...

both can be fun, but the 'big bad' will need to be extra tough (read 20-50% casualties) or have plenty of lower level help with him when they meet up.

'Normally' pc's don't form groups that big cause of logistics and other reasons...(like, never that many players), but sometimes when the stakes are that high, enough adventurers will band together to deal with the problem.

Now...your party's major problem is their lack of spellcasters...the warlock might as well be someone with a crossbow and a good to hit, their sorcerer is only good for a few MM before being full rouge again, and only a single cleric to tend to 6 fighting classes and 2.5 support fighters.

with that spread, a 4th or 5th level mage would wipe out the party with a well placed web, pro arrows, shield, sleep, and a wand of MM.

Since the consistance of the party is not likely to change, and you don't have a balanced mix...I would say either have them face larger mobs of low level creatures in a general melee where reach and tactics could be in their favor. If you split them up, have it be rangers, rogues, and monk in one party as a stealth recon/flank team and the rest as an assault team...which, they are.

I would say split them up fairly often for whatever reason and have them complete tasks simultaneously to achieve whatever ends...

Another fun thing is to have the party separated by traps and other wierd circumstances and have the players in different rooms while you go back and forth (possibly a co-dm is necessary). Hilarity tends to ense as both teams do their best to achieve the same goals and look for the others.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-16, 02:13 AM
My tip: RUN. Nerds are out of shape, usually, they won't be able to keep up for long. Run far, and run fast, and never return again.

Talic
2007-12-16, 02:40 AM
Barbarian with a 20 Str, let's say the other has an 18. If they both use greatswords, and win initiative...

Rage
24 Str (+7)
22 Str (+6)

Attack Bonus (Assuming Charge and masterwork)
+13
+12

These heads are AC 16?

Power attack for 3 and 2.

+10 to hit
+10 to hit

Damage:
2D6 + 16
2D6 + 13

There's 2 heads gone, round 1.

If the Lv3 rogues win, let's say using Light Crossbows. That's 1D8, 2D6 for sneak attack. Let's assume a Dex of 18, for a +6 to hit. Add in a MW weapon, and Point Blank shot, for +8. Average 11 damage, one miss likely. Any rogue that hits drops a head. The down side to the party winning initiative is that 10 damage is very attainable. Very. And with a hydra, initiative isn't that great... And you get 1 roll, they get 11.

Chances are, at least 5 rolls will beat the hydra, which means 3-5 heads gone, round 1. That's maybe a 2 round fight. Maybe.

Icewalker
2007-12-16, 03:38 AM
Well, from personal experience being in groups up to 17, combat will move SLOOOOOW.

Other than that, just get an interesting adventure, and as long as the players are alright with sitting out for a while until it is their action, it shouldn't cause too much of a problem. Avoid random encounters, because they are generally pointless but somewhat fun, but what with the speed of combat in a group like that...not good.

Another suggestion: puzzles are good. Things like riddles or logic fill-in puzzles. Because all the people can work on them together.

MrNexx
2007-12-16, 03:40 AM
1) Single monsters are a bad idea against a group of four. Against a group of 11, they're suicidal.

2) Get co-DMs to help with mechanics-heavy things, like combat. Not just one more person to help with story aspects, but other people who can help smooth out combat by rolling for NPCs, looking up rules, and helping people with numbers when they fail their basic addition skills (because no matter how much d20 has simplified the math, you still have people who can't figure out what 13 + 5 + 3 is on short notice). Rules-checkers are especially important... people who can look up spells, combat actions, etc. and give you accurate information.

JackMage666
2007-12-16, 03:56 AM
11 People. No. Don't do that. Combat will take too long, shopping will take too long, ordering pizza will take too long. There's too many people trying to play one game. Now, you could do something like, have 1 game world, but split the group up. The two groups exist in the same world, but do quests in different areas. Occasionally, players can cross over into the other, and the grand finale could be a huge battle with both groups fighting against the same enemy (enemies, whatever). That way, you have a group of 5 and and group of 6 to deal with, which will be much more manageable and fun than 11.

That's about my only suggestion.

AslanCross
2007-12-16, 03:59 AM
I have difficulty with 6 people. When I lost one player and got down to 5, everything went a lot faster. I personally do not recommend more than 6.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-16, 04:49 AM
I ran the hyrdra tonight and it destroyed them. One of the barbarians didn't show up and one of the fighters didn't show up. Everyone tried to run away after it killed the barbarian.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-16, 04:56 AM
Ya know...miniatures do help with speeding up gameplay with 11 people...it is possible against well known enemies (if the PC's have their numbers crunched before they are up) to have every player go in less than a minute and then it is just a mater of moving and having all the enemies move/attack.

part of what takes so damn long in many games is the question...ok...where am I, where are the enemies, and what is going on...if players pay attention (likely if things are moving speedily...even more likely since noone will really be tossing out complex spells or abilities with your group), then you could run 40 vs. 11 pretty easy.

I know I ran a 62-20 mass goblin raiding a town (about 10-15 town NPCs helping, but mainly PC's). we used 50 pennies for goblins, 10 nickles for wolf riders, and quarters for the two orcs that were leading the charge on horseback. PC's were spare dice (numbered for ease) on the floor with the perimiter of the town represented by stacks of spare books on the floor, a couple of soda bottles for the towers, and a pair of rolled up socks for the makeshift fortifications. Distance was measured with a straw that had a black mark to represent 30' in the middle. A move was to the mark, double move the whole straw, 30' burst was easy to mark, so was a cone of whatever length. Even with all the 'minis', because it was represented well, there was no confusion...everyone knew what they had to do, and where everyone was...it went pretty smooth...combat was done in a couple of hours (it did drag on for 20+ rounds of actual combat and several game minutes of chasing/hiding fighting from building to building)

Probably would have gone much better for the players if they didn't stand their ground in the open field when the wolf riders lowered 'lances' and prepared to charge...'elite' wolfriders with rideby attack charging with a lance will hurt alot...everyone was hurt pretty bad and then they got slammed by the charge of the main body...thankfully for them, the orcs missed and just went by without any real incident. (crafty use of area effect and splash with generous cleavage won the day in the field)

but really...if you just have a good system down, things can go pretty smooth...now, once things get much higher level and wierd options become prolific...there might start to be some major slow downs...but until about level 5 or 6 you should be able to manage ok enough.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-16, 05:31 AM
I ran the hyrdra tonight and it destroyed them. One of the barbarians didn't show up and one of the fighters didn't show up. Everyone tried to run away after it killed the barbarian.

wow...I am guessing that several heads focused on one PC and the rest got spooked and ran?

Even with two fighters down, they should ahve been able to take the hydra more or less ok...

round 1...Bless...everyone shoot the thing/throw oil, then drop your ranged weapon and ready close combat...(if you are ranged, just reload...and spread out a little...party should be in position to flank) Hydra moves closer to eat someone...if you are close enough for him to move and attack the first round, someone did something wrong...

round 2...CHARGE! flankers take their positions as they charge in..those who will require a flank to get extra damage or to hit reliably hold until someone else moves in first...if it was hit with oil, use burning hands, or scorcher, or just toss a torch at it. Remember to at least attempt to tumble...it is only DC 15 and worth the shot...even if you are wearing armor. hydra hopefully has has been reduced to few heads and is close to dead...if they concentrate on a single player it can likely kill one...tops...otherwise damage will be spread but managable.

round 3 - 5 foot stepathon...get back into range if necessary, if it stayed there have the flanks shuffle for better position. hit the stupid thing some more...if it isn't dead by now...you have a REAL problem...

I would have estimated 2 deaths tops if it concentrated on individuals...are they unlucky? Do their tactics blow? what happened?

Lolzords
2007-12-16, 05:54 AM
Do what my DM did when we had a party of 8 or 9, discuss with them and ask if they're willing to split up, or get a second dm and get him to dm half of them, while keeping the group together.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-16, 04:38 PM
Simplest tip for a group that large:
Don't do it.

To make that a helpful bit of advice, I'll explain and suggest a bit too. :smallwink:
The trouble with big groups is that it takes too long to get round to each person's go in a fight, and if you're not fighting, one or two players will dominate and one or two players will get left out - that's just the way people are: someone will be the quiet guy and someone else will be loud. With 11 people, you'll have a far harder time bringing the quiet ones into the game.
Split up the group - run two different games in the same setting at different times. Allow cross-contamination of ideas and actions between groups. Swap characters back and forth as appropriate between scenarios.
Divide the group in session - set different goals that are best suited to different sub-parties within the group: let them plan their strategies and what-not while you deal with one sub-group, then go back to the guys who've hopefully now got a plan together and are raring to get on with it.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-16, 04:43 PM
I've DM'd a game with 15 players, it wasn't hard for me, then again, I am pretty harsh as a DM, out of that Original party only one is still around.

let's see, start by letting them fight loads of tough monsters, set up battle maps a Must...don't ever start a combat without minis if you know what's good for you. You have a small army on your hands so, have them fight other armies, get the Heroes of Battle book and have yourself a War.

Barring that slip the group into two. It's what the system was ment for is groups of 3-6 players.

Ralfarius
2007-12-16, 04:57 PM
You know... If you split the group 6/5, then you could actually convince one of the players in the other group to DM, and you'd have two groups of 5. Then you would be able to schedule everything separately, and players could either go with the other 5 people who have schedules closest to them, or even switch back and forth between groups as needed. Someone can't make it? Have a person from the other group sub-in for the evening!

Another thing to consider is DM rotation. I know many groups play with a fixed DM, but anyone I've played with has had at least some interest in running games. We would usually have different campaigns to sub out, which could keep things fresh and allow people to play various characters. The other thing we did was have one large, collaborative campaign where whomever was DM'ing would have their character part with the group temporarily for some story-related reason, then would pick up where the previous DM left off. It was interesting, as it allowed people to develop the story as they saw fit, and interconnect it as best they could with previous plot points.

Prometheus
2007-12-16, 08:04 PM
I've DM'd with up to eight at the table, to me, I think 11 would be do-able, if you feel personally up to it. There are two basic strategies:
a) Control is essential: You shun all OOC and nonessential discussion or it will get really loud really quick. This may earn the resentment of some players, or the simple lack of ability from other. With all those players thinking only in character and how it pertains to the plot, you will have very RP rich game.
b) Focus when needed: Take it for given that players are not going to pay attention when its not their turn in combat or when they have nothing in particular to do "in-town". Make it clear that when you want attention they will give it, and they will not begrudge you for making this decision.

I opted for strategy B), and D&D kind of extended from a game to a lot of nice conversation and fun while still maintaining the game. My girlfriend DM'd a similar sized group and when she did strategy B) she felt like no one cared, that she had no attention, and that she was a bad DM. She switched gears to strategy a) and we all had a wonderful time.

Dausuul
2007-12-17, 08:55 AM
Enforce rigid game discipline in situations where everyone needs to participate, especially combat. If a player isn't ready with an action within five seconds of his/her turn coming around, that character spends the round dithering and play moves on to the next person. A 4-player group can afford to let people occasionally debate tactics. 11 players, not so much.

Consider a "clockwise initiative" system. Have everyone seat themselves in order of their initiative modifiers, with the lowest-initiative player to the DM's left. When combat starts, everyone rolls initiative and the person who rolls highest goes first; after that, play moves clockwise around the table. That way it's immediately clear to each player when his/her turn is approaching.

If not using "clockwise initiative," then announce each player's turn by stating "Joe's turn, Mary on deck" (that is, it's Joe's turn, and Mary's up next). That way Mary knows to be ready with her action.

Be ready to make rulings on the fly. Do not stop to look stuff up; just make an off-the-cuff ruling and go with it, with the understanding that such rulings can be discussed and revised after the game if someone objects.

When using monsters out of the book, give them a hit point boost. Don't worry about making their stats internally consistent. Just double or triple their hit point totals and leave it at that. This will improve the monster's survivability without causing undue PC deaths. Doubling a monster's hit points is roughly equivalent to +1 CR, tripling is equivalent to +2. (If your players are fond of save-or-lose/save-or-suck effects, consider giving it bonuses on its saving throws as well.)

And, most important of all, tell your players to stop inviting more people! In certain environments (e.g., college dorms), there is a near-endless supply of people wanting to play D&D, and everyone knows a friend who'd like to play. I've seen games get up to as many as 14 people in such settings.

Ethdred
2007-12-17, 12:37 PM
Why don't people read the OP? He's said he's managed to get them up to level 3 so maybe he's aware of the problems of large groups and is working around them. So rather than tell him not to do something he's been doing for a while, I'm going to pay him and his group the compliment of assuming they're OK with the group size, can work it and are having fun.

Which leads to the real comment - don't do single monsters, or even pairs like you're suggesting. Not even a BBEG. Just don't have BBEGs. They're going to have to be so big that they will either kill half the party or lose initiative and die. If you must have big climactic encounters, then have a medium-sized EG and minions - lots of little ones is fun, but will slow things down even more. A few powerful henchmen can do the job well. Or have a 'Council' of bad guys - this can give you the chance to play some of those more obscure races and classes (and combos) that you'd never get to play normally. They don't have to be optimised, they just have to look effective and keep people occupied. In my table top we just had to deal with a samurai, a hexblade, a beguiler and (one other obscure thing I've forgotten). Lots of comments like 'How did he do that?' 'As a free action?'

Prometheus
2007-12-17, 12:51 PM
Because he asked for tips?

Indon
2007-12-17, 12:57 PM
-Deputize a co-DM to help track numbers and figures and junk.

-Hope the party has a couple natural leaders to help organize everyone to smooth combat.

-Raise encounter CR with numbers, not with power. A group of 5 is an elite unit. A group of 11, particularly PC's, is like a small army. Don't throw dragons at an army, throw other armies at them.

Edit: Another tip:

-If you have players which show up sporadically, or aren't very involved in the game, consider guiding them towards a less immersive role, such as another players' familiar, animal companion, or an intelligent artifact. This also has the positive side effect of nobody being able to forget they exist.

Triaxx
2007-12-17, 01:09 PM
Exactly. If you have the full group of eleven players, plan the encounters as if there were three parties of level three players. Three trolls for example would be suitable. (Unless I failed my Knowledge (CR) check.)