Yuan-ti poison, Corrupt template transformation

[Samael Morgenst]

Three quick question. Feel free to specify if you answer RAI or RAW:

1. could a non-human become a Corrupt using Use Magic Device to emulate the human race while imbibing the Yuan-ti poison?

2. and a mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny), using his ability to emulate any race?

3. a mongrelfolk with this feat?

Human Heritage
Type: Racial
Source: Races of Destiny

Your human heritage is more prominent than in others of your kind.
Prerequisite: Half-human race or human-descended race.
Benefit: You are treated as a humanoid with the human-subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).
You gain 4 additional skill points.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

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Secondary question: a human with a template (half-dragon, half-fiend, spellwarped ecc.) can still become a Corrupted? (and then, with the Yuan-ti cultist class, a Pureblood, an Halfblood, an Abomination, an Anahema...)?

And a human infected by lychantropy?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Three quick question. Feel free to specify if you answer RAI or RAW:

1. could a non-human become a Corrupt using Use Magic Device to emulate the human race while imbibing the Yuan-ti poison?

2. and a mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny), using his ability to emulate any race?

3. a mongrelfolk with this feat?

Human Heritage
Type: Racial
Source: Races of Destiny

Your human heritage is more prominent than in others of your kind.
Prerequisite: Half-human race or human-descended race.
Benefit: You are treated as a humanoid with the human-subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).
You gain 4 additional skill points.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

---


Secondary question: a human with a template (half-dragon, half-fiend, spellwarped ecc.) can still become a Corrupted? (and then, with the Yuan-ti cultist class, a Pureblood, an Halfblood, an Abomination, an Anahema...)?

And a human infected by lychantropy?

"Corrupt" or "Corrupted" is not the actual template's name. I think you're thinking of a Tainted One. Or a broodguard. The general name for these Yuan-ti-corrupted humans (at least in 2e, though it refers more to a broodguard) is Histachii, which I will now use.

First, the RAW answer : the Histachii concoction is not a magic item, thus UMD does nothing. Same thing with the regular mongrelfolk emulation. Human heritage works for all effects, and thus would work in transforming a mongrelfolk into an Histachii. Same thing for a human with a template. As long as the template does not change your subtype, you are still considered a human with regards to any effects.

The RAI answer is probably the same, though a mongrelfolk is already so mutable and has actual human parts, so maybe the Histachii poison could affect it, or at least modify it somewhat permanently rather than just making it ill.

[ShurikVch]

Note: FWIW, versions of those templates in the Ghostwalk are saying:

"Tainted one" and "broodguard" are templates that can be added to any humanoid (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
"Any Humanoid" - means Elves (or even Kobolds!) are OK too!

Maybe, local Yuan-ti just using different recipe than those in the Forgotten Realms?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Note: FWIW, versions of those templates in the Ghostwalk are saying:

"Any Humanoid" - means Elves (or even Kobolds!) are OK too!

Maybe, local Yuan-ti just using different recipe than those in the Forgotten Realms?

The restriction to humans didn't make much sense in the first place. Why would humans react differently from elves or halflings to this mixture when every single other poison works the same, including the unrefined yuan-ti poison? Why would humans be significantly more fit than other humanoids for yuan-ti transformation when all humanoids are so far removed from yuan-ti in any kind of classification that the difference between them becomes negligible in comparison. The human restriction in Serpent Kingdoms is taken almost word-for-word from the 2e Histachii lore, while having all humanoids behave the same way is very much more in line with 3e design, where creature types are often much more important than a creature's actual species.

[Morphic tide]

The restriction to humans didn't make much sense in the first place. Why would humans react differently from elves or halflings to this mixture when every single other poison works the same, including the unrefined yuan-ti poison? Why would humans be significantly more fit than other humanoids for yuan-ti transformation when all humanoids are so far removed from yuan-ti in any kind of classification that the difference between them becomes negligible in comparison. The human restriction in Serpent Kingdoms is taken almost word-for-word from the 2e Histachii lore, while having all humanoids behave the same way is very much more in line with 3e design, where creature types are often much more important than a creature's actual species.
It's because humans are the root-stock magically hybridized with snakes to create the Yuan-Ti in the first place. Same deal as Illithids, the setup developed around one very specific case and things inevitably go pear-shaped outside that case.

[Samael Morgenst]

Human Heritage
Type: Racial
Source: Races of Destiny

Your human heritage is more prominent than in others of your kind.
Prerequisite: Half-human race or human-descended race.
Benefit: You are treated as a humanoid with the human-subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).
You gain 4 additional skill points.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.



So, I'll go straight to the point.

Could a 20th level character with 190000 xp to spend, undergo the Rite of Vitality (Savage Species), become an human with the Human Heritage feat and several templates raising his ECL to 20 (example: Monster of Legend +7, Half-Dragon +3, Spellwarped +3, Half-Minotaur +1, Stone-bone +2, Half-fiend +4), then use the various yuan-ti poisons and ceremonies to change into tainted one, pureblood, halfblood, abomination and finally anathema?

And the final result would be a Legendary Halfdragon Spellwarped Halfminotaur Stonebone Half-fiend anathema?


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Secondary question. According to Savage Species, wings and the ability to naturally fly are worth an LA +1. Then wingless half-dragons should have a LA of +2?

And Aerie should lose her LA?

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, I'll go straight to the point.

Could a 20th level character with 190000 xp to spend, undergo the Rite of Vitality (Savage Species), become an human with the Human Heritage feat and several templates raising his ECL to 20 (example: Monster of Legend +7, Half-Dragon +3, Spellwarped +3, Half-Minotaur +1, Stone-bone +2, Half-fiend +4), then use the various yuan-ti poisons and ceremonies to change into tainted one, pureblood, halfblood, abomination and finally anathema?

And the final result would be a Legendary Halfdragon Spellwarped Halfminotaur Stonebone Half-fiend anathema?
Why would you need Human Heritage if you already transformed into an actual human? The human could then become a Tainted One, and keep their templates. I have not seen anyone assuming that race-changing effects (Create Spawn, Vargouille Kiss, Ophidian bite... I'm sure there are others) retain their templates, but simply adding a template would maintain them. The problem is that you have 21 ECL of templates and almost no XP left. So it will take forever to gain another level.
It's even worse if you become a pureblood, halfblood or abomination. You'd gain both HD and LA. Let's say your giant stack of templates finds a way to become a Yuan-ti abomination without gaining any class level. They'd in fact be ECL 37 (21 from templates, 9 MHumanoid RHD, LA+7) and would not gain any XP short of fighting high-epic level threats. And if you ever become an Anathema, you immediately become an NPC, since the Anathema does not have an LA, and creatures with no LA are not playable.


Secondary question. According to Savage Species, wings and the ability to naturally fly are worth an LA +1. Then wingless half-dragons should have a LA of +2?

And Aerie should lose her LA?
Nnnnnope. Sorry Aerie, but being unable to watch the forests of the north from the sky does not warrant you gaining an additional class level. The Savage Species guidelines are there to estimate LA when you're assigning it to a creature which does not already have one. They are not supposed to be hard rules, and especially not work in reverse.
They also in general vastly overestimate LA. See the LA assignment thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) for community-assigned rebalanced level adjustments (always consult your DM before using community content).

[Samael Morgenst]

since the Anathema does not have an LA

Actually it has! "Because of its numerous special abilities, an anathema PC's effective character level (ECL) is equal to its class level + 28. Thus, a 1st-level anathema cleric has an ECL of 29 and is the equivalent of a 29th-level character."


Why would you need Human Heritage if you already transformed into an actual human?

Because several templates remove the subtype "human", while the feat Human Heritage gives it back.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Actually it has! "Because of its numerous special abilities, an anathema PC's effective character level (ECL) is equal to its class level + 28. Thus, a 1st-level anathema cleric has an ECL of 29 and is the equivalent of a 29th-level character."
Oooh! Nice‚ I didn't check that. I'll keep it in mind next time I play a high-epic game (just kidding‚ I wont‚ but it's cool nonetheless).


Because several templates remove the subtype "human", while the feat Human Heritage gives it back.
There aren't many templates that can remove subtypes‚ and looking at those you've listed they only change your type and sometimes give you the Augmented subtype‚ but do not remove anything.