Sidestepping a charge

[ChudoJogurt]

If a character readies an action to step 20ft to the side if they are charged (or if a specific opponent reies to charge at them), would that automaticallt mean that the charge is wasted?
And then the sidestepping character would go right before the charger, meaning they can counterattack essentially for free.

Is that correct?
I dont think its broken (since you need to correctly guess that youd be charged), but it feels weird.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not only is that correct, but you can actually make it nastier.

Use a Longspear or similar weapon (or just have Steadfast Boots). Ready to set vs. a charge. Now read this tidbit that most people don't seem to know:



Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

So... you set vs. charge. Dumb fool charges you. As soon as his movement ends, but before he can swing, you make your readied attack for x2 damage, then as part of the readied action, 5 ft step diagonally to the side to get out of his reach and foil his attack. He has now wasted his turn, and your initiative is now just before his, so you get your next turn before he can act. You 5 ft step back into reach, and full attack him (note he still has the -2 AC from charging).
I used to love doing that in melee duels w/ a patient Samurai-type character.
For added hilarity/security, add the Counter Charge maneuver. Or get really spicy w/ Cometary Collision, Pounce, and Knockback. But that's going beyond the bounds of your scenario...
Bottom line: Making chargers severely regret all of their life decisions is both fun and easy! :smallbiggrin:

[Jowgen]

As a standard action, you can ready a move action that you can set to trigger based on the actions of other creatures. If the trigger happens, you interrupt the other creatures turn, take you action, and the creature resumes their turn.

Assuming the DM allows your character to be able to tell when someone is about to charge, you can use that as a trigger to move before they charge.

The important bit about charging here is the "You must be able to reach the closest space from which you can attack the designated opponent condition.

If you're still within movement distance and they have a clear line, the charge action still happens, just to your new position.

If for whatever reason the conditions for a charge are no longer met after you move, they no longer charge; i.e. they stay put.

One could debate over whether this wastes the charger's turn, as they declared a full-round action that they can can no longer take, but I doubt most DMs would look at that situation and say the creature can't take their standard/move action for that turn in another way.

What would work better, arguably, is to set your trigger to move if another creature comes within x feet of you. That way the charger has already expended their full round action, and you'd be able to more easily resposition in a way that makes it so that they no longer meet the conditions for charging/attacking.

Although again, a reasonable DM might then say they have only moved and still grant them a full round action, despite that not being RAW.

Either case, seeing how you'll still be before the charger in the intiative, same as before, you've not necesarily gained anything. Rather than spending your turn readying a move (which you risk losing if conidtions aren't met), you could have spent it moving and attacking or somesuch, same position you'd be in after their charge and your moving. Could be a specific battlefield situation could be improved by the relative re-positioning (e.g. maybe they have more movement speed and you weren't in range to do anything then, but will be after moving in response to their charge), but it seems scarce.


Side-note: if you're worried about handling chargers, I recommend looking at the Steadfast Boots from MIC.

[Jowgen]

Not only is that correct, but you can actually make it nastier.

Use a Longspear or similar weapon (or just have Steadfast Boots). Ready to set vs. a charge. Now read this tidbit that most people don't seem to know:



So... you set vs. charge. Dumb fool charges you. As soon as his movement ends, but before he can swing, you make your readied attack for x2 damage, then as part of the readied action, 5 ft step diagonally to the side to get out of his reach and foil his attack. He has now wasted his turn, and your initiative is now just before his, so you get your next turn before he can act. You 5 ft step back into reach, and full attack him (note he still has the -2 AC from charging).
I used to love doing that in melee duels w/ a patient Samurai-type character.
For added hilarity/security, add the Counter Charge maneuver. Or get really spicy w/ Cometary Collision, Pounce, and Knockback. But that's going beyond the bounds of your scenario...
Bottom line: Making chargers severely regret all of their life decisions is both fun and easy! :smallbiggrin:

Swordsage'd on the Boots, but regarding the bit about 5 ft stepping after the set-against attack, I'd posit that the charger would ostensibilty upon resumption of their turn still be able to carry on their movement and attack -as the charge is designated at a creature, not a square-, if they still can meet the movement-in-straight-line and "closest space from which you can attack the designated opponent" conditions.

Certainly possible to use the 5ft step to foil the attack (e.g. move beyond their movement limit) but I think it situational.

Unless of course you've used a Sparring Dummy of the Master (be it by actually being a monk or pretending to be by way of UMD) to gain the ability to make 10 ft steps.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Swordsage'd on the Boots, but regarding the bit about 5 ft stepping after the set-against attack, I'd posit that the charger would ostensibilty upon resumption of their turn still be able to carry on their movement and attack -as the charge is designated at a creature, not a square-, if they still can meet the movement-in-straight-line and "closest space from which you can attack the designated opponent" conditions.

Certainly possible to use the 5ft step to foil the attack (e.g. move beyond their movement limit) but I think it situational.

Unless of course you've used a Sparring Dummy of the Master (be it by actually being a monk or pretending to be by way of UMD) to gain the ability to make 10 ft steps.

Well, for starters it always helps to have greater reach than the opponent, so you can make the attack and 5 ft step before he's even close enough to attack you.
But no, it should be quite easy to sidestep a charge. The charge has to be in a straight line to the closest square of the target, so merely moving out of the way enough such that his destination (or if you allow him to continue charging in that line to the limit of his charge range, whatever destinations those would be) is no longer a square he can threaten you from, you've foiled the charge. Since charge is a full round action, that should end his turn. But if the gods (DM) take pity on him and say "it was only his movement, he can still have his standard" (mind you, he better have not moved more than his base speed by this point, then), then...he still can't attack (well, melee at least). He's at least 5 ft out of reach and can't 5 ft step since he already moved. So he can just use the standard to move back into melee w/ you. Or if he learned his lesson, I guess ready his own action or such.

But no, by RAW it works out quite well since the charge rules are so restrictive. For good reason since there's so much nasty things you can do on a charge, like mounted/lance, pounce, shock trooper, etc... Keep in mind you still have to win initiative to even do any of this, otherwise you never even get a chance to ready. And a smart foe that noticed you reacted first yet seemingly did nothing would be wary of such a circumstance and perhaps not play right into your hands.

[ChudoJogurt]

>If you're still within movement distance and they have a clear line, the charge action still happens, just to your new position.
If the readied actrion interrupts the charge, they'd need to turn, and you can only charge in a straight line.

[Jowgen]

>If you're still within movement distance and they have a clear line, the charge action still happens, just to your new position.
If the readied actrion interrupts the charge, they'd need to turn, and you can only charge in a straight line.

This was in the scenario where the trigger is set to "x creature charges at me", wherein since the readied action takes place before the trigger action, that is they make their charge, they would not have moved yet, so straight line may still be possible and permissable.

One neat way this can be taken advantage of though: if the charging conditions are still met after your move, the charger ostensibly has no choice but to follow through on the charge despite you now being in a new spot, and you might be able to set it up so that it becomes terribly hazardous for them to do so; e.g. move to a spot that's just right so that their charging movement takes them through a bunch of your ally-threatened squares now, subjecting them to oodles of AoOs that they have no choice but to eat.

[Darg]

This was in the scenario where the trigger is set to "x creature charges at me", wherein since the readied action takes place before the trigger action, that is they make their charge, they would not have moved yet, so straight line may still be possible and permissable.

One neat way this can be taken advantage of though: if the charging conditions are still met after your move, the charger ostensibly has no choice but to follow through on the charge despite you now being in a new spot, and you might be able to set it up so that it becomes terribly hazardous for them to do so; e.g. move to a spot that's just right so that their charging movement takes them through a bunch of your ally-threatened squares now, subjecting them to oodles of AoOs that they have no choice but to eat.

You can't set the condition to "when they take the charge action." Characters don't understand rules concepts. The conditions need to be in world valid such as the target attacking you. Thus they finish the movement of the charge, but because you readied an action you get to act before the attack. Otherwise you'd never be able to set a weapon and benefit from it because they'd always be out of range when you attack.

[Morphic tide]

You can't set the condition to "when they take the charge action." Characters don't understand rules concepts. The conditions need to be in world valid such as the target attacking you. Thus they finish the movement of the charge, but because you readied an action you get to act before the attack. Otherwise you'd never be able to set a weapon and benefit from it because they'd always be out of range when you attack.
I think it needs to be able to occur mid-action and specify the "special attack" for Setting against a Charge to work due to the minimum range on the Longspear and the text in question only giving double damage "If you use a ready action to set a [weapon] against a charge". But given how Ready works, doing this should technically need you to properly define at which point you interrupt. Which in the Sidestep case is some distance they've committed to their direction and in the Set vs. Charge case when they start to be in reach.

Incidentally, it also seems that Charging doesn't prevent Attacks of Opportunity from anyone, which means that Reach weapons with the usual "minimum range" clause can technically make an AoO if the enemy closes within it. No matter that Longspears are very nearly exactly the opposite of what this makes sense for.

[Jowgen]

Agreed with Morphic Tide, "Set against charge" is it's own kind of special action with its own rules largely seperate from the Ready action rules.

As for what contsitutes a valid trigger, I did specify right at start it depends whether "the DM allows your character to be able to tell when someone is about to charge".

DM could do things like calling for a reactive spot or sense motive to let a character guess someone's intentions in vagues situations like this, or handwave it, or just straight up say no.

It's an inherently clunky rule set of rules, with how you're specifying that you want to react to, but you are actually acting before the thing you're reacting to happens, so YMWV.

[Crake]

Agreed with Morphic Tide, "Set against charge" is it's own kind of special action with its own rules largely seperate from the Ready action rules.

As for what contsitutes a valid trigger, I did specify right at start it depends whether "the DM allows your character to be able to tell when someone is about to charge".

DM could do things like calling for a reactive spot or sense motive to let a character guess someone's intentions in vagues situations like this, or handwave it, or just straight up say no.

It's an inherently clunky rule set of rules, with how you're specifying that you want to react to, but you are actually acting before the thing you're reacting to happens, so YMWV.

A charge isnt instant. You dont need to pre-empt the charge, you can have a readied action set to be mid-charge if you want, by just setting your trigger to be “someone charges 10ft toward me”

That way they have locked in their straight line, and so your movement to the side by a sufficient amount makes them unable to complete their charge, but since theyve already begun movement, they cannot now cancel the charge and do something else, or change the charge to point toward your new location.

Its not really that powerful, you’re trading your entire turn for MAYBE wasting someone else’s entire turn.