Recruiting [PF1 Altered - Low Level Gestalt] Isekai Adventures [Archive]

Talivan

2024-03-30, 07:45 PM

Soooo, I've been working in some simple PF1 mechanic changes and I want to test the first round of it, I will run a campaing to see if everything goes well.

If something does't make sense or do you pinpoint some mistakes on the 16 please don't hesitate to rise your hand, let's make this work!

1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?
Pathfinder 1e

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?
Homebrew campaign to test mechanical changes

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?
4 players, alts contacted as required

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?
Here in the Playground, Sheets in Mythweavers or (well organized) Excel file please

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
Gestalt Level 6 with class customizations (Milestone progression)

6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?
Wealth by level x2, no max cost restriction.

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
Use anything that suits your PC

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
Any race under or equal 15pp, you may rise your race to 15pp with race creation rules, however, no race from scratch

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
- Everyone rolls a set of 4d6b3 six times, then you can pick the set you like the most from all rolled sets.
- Max HP at all levels
- Fractional BAB & Saves

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?
- Off for Class requirements
- Active For Spells and Mechanics
- Alignment is a guide of your PC's behavior, but don't be Chaotic Stupid or Lauful Jerk, able to teamwork

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
Multiclass is OK, NO prestige classes (but see #13 in classes section)

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?
Roll yours, I will roll the rest.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.
Traits
- 2 traits
- optional: 1 trait with a drawback
- You can get up to 2 additional traits spending the extra feat given at level 1 (see below)

Feats:
- Feat every odd level + 1 extra feat at level one
- Elephant is in the Room
- If you get same specific feat from Class special Features, you can replace it following this options:
1. Get an improved version of it (i.e. Vital strike x2 becomes Vital strike + Improved Vital Strike ), No need to meet other prerequisites
2. Get a Feat that has prerequisite of duped feat (i.e Critical Focus x2 becomes Critical Focus + Bleeding Critical), Still need to meet other non-feat prerequisites
3. Get another feat with same feat type (Combat, Metamagic, Critical, etc.), Still need to meet other prerequisites
- Leadership feat doesn't give you extra bodies, instead it will give you +4 Competence bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Handle animal checks
- No crafting feats reducing Initial Equipment cost
- Other feats may be overwriten as needed

Skills:
- Retroactive
- No Background Skills
- Climb & Swim merged into new skill Atletics (Str)
- Sense Motive merged to Perception
- Fly Merged to Acrobatics (you still need to have a Flight method)
- Bonus INT points from equiped/held Magic items or temporal bonuses doesn't give you extra Ranks, only permanent increases does

Spellcasting:
- We will using this modified spellcasting system (similar to Psionics):
- Arcane Spell slots translated to Arcane Magic Points (AMP), same for Divine (DMP) and Special spellcasting such as Alchemist Class (SMP), with a rate of 1 MP per Slot Level
- Spells can be casted using MP equal to spell level
- Metamagic adds to MP cost, you are restricted to spend MP equal to the maximum spell level you can cast
- Bonus spell slots also translated to MP
- MP from diferent sources are combined into a unique pool by magic type (Divine, Arcane, etc), but class Spell Lists and Spell DCs are managed separately
- Bonus INT points from equiped/held Magic items or temporal bonuses doesn't give you extra spells known (in the case of Wizard's Lv 1 starting spells or similar for other classes), only permanent increases does.

Classes
- All your PF class special features are transformed into Regular Feature Slots (RFS)
- All Class Features are classified in 3 categories:
1. Single Features (Ranger's Wild Empaty. Cleric's Aura, etc),It costs 1 RSF
2. Staged Features (Rogue's Sneak Attack, Druid's Companion, Paladin's Mercy, etc),It Costs 1 RSF per Stage/Level
3. System Features (Wizard's Spellcasting, Summoner's Eidolon, Warlords's Martial maneuvers' etc),It cost 1 RSF per Level or if the class options allow to trade it for less RFS like Myrmidon's Maneuvers with 4 RSF
- All systems like Spellcasting, Martial maneuvers, Spheres, etc are transformed to 1 RFS per level (For a total of 20 RFS at lv 20)
- All systems with Full proression costs 20 RSF (Like Wizard spellcasting), systems with 3/4 progression costs 10 RSF (like Bard's Spellcasting) and 1/2 progresion systems costs 5 RSF (like Paladin's Spellcasting)
- You can buy Class special Features or system levels from original class features or any Archetype available to your class within Level restriction
- You can buy a system level with 1 RSF per level in case of Full progresion system, 1 system level per per two class levels in case of 3/4 progression (either pay in the even or odd level), and evey 4 levels in the case of 1/2 system progresion (you can pay the cos in either of the 4 levels in the block, more explanation in the sample below).
- You can buy a Bonus Feat with 1 RFS
- You can buy special Features from Prestige Classes at 2 RFS rate, you must still qualify for that Prestige Class to be able to pick from

SAMPLE

Translating Paladin Class Features into RFS:

Lv 1 > Aura of good, detect evil, Smite evil 1/day, spellcasting level = 4 RFS
Lv 2 > Divine grace, Lay on hands, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 3 > Aura of courage, divine health, mercy, spellcasting level = 4 RFS
Lv 4 > Channel positive energy 1d6, smite evil 2/day, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 5 > Divine bond, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 6 > Channel positive energy 2d6, mercy, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 7 > Smite evil 3/day, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 8 > Channel positive energy 3d6, Aura of resolve, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 9 > Mercy, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 10 > Channel positive energy 4d6, smite evil 4/day, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 11 > Aura of Justice, spellcasting level, Divine Bond = 3 RFS
Lv 12 > Channel positive energy 5d6, Mercy, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 13 > Smite evil 5/day, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 14 > Channel positive energy 6d6, Aura of faith, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 15 > Mercy, spellcasting level, Divine Bond = 3 RFS
Lv 16 > Channel positive energy 7d6, smite evil 6/day, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 17 > Aura of Righteousness, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 18 > Channel positive energy 8d6, mercy, spellcasting level = 3 RFS
Lv 19 > Smite evil 7/day, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
Lv 20 > Holy Champion, spellcasting level = 2 RFS
TOTAL = 55 RSF

For my custom Paladin I want him to have the 1/2 Spellcasting system (As Base Paladin, 5 RSF), Proficient Practicioner (As Dirt Spattered Angel, 5 RSF) and 3/4 Martial Maneuvers (As Knight Disciple, 10 RSF) for a total of 20 RSF.
Martial Maneuver RFS cost can be payed as follows: 1 RSF at levels 1st or 2nd, 1 RSF at levels 3rd or 4th, 1 RSF at levels 5th or 6th, and so on until payed all 10 RSF cost
Spellcasting RFS costs can be payed as follows: 1 RSF at leves 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th, 1 RSF at leves 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th, and so on until payed all 5 RSF cost, same for Proficient Practiotioner

So Custom Paladin will Looks like:

Lv 1 > 4 RFS = Practitioner, Smite Evil 1/day
Lv 2 > 3 RFS = Martial Disciple
Lv 3 > 4 RFS = Martial Disciple
Lv 4 > 3 RFS = Spellcasting
----------------
Lv 5 > 2 RFS = Martial Disciple, Draconic Bond (Dragon Knight)
Lv 6 > 3 RFS = Practitioner, Smite Evil 2/day, Divine Bond (Chevalier, applied to Draconic Mount)
Lv 7 > 2 RFS = Spellcasting
Lv 8 > 3 RFS = Martial Disciple, Divine Bond (Chevalier)
----------------
Lv 9 > 2 RFS = Spellcasting
Lv 10 > 3 RFS = Martial Disciple, Smite Evil 3/day
Lv 11 > 3 RFS = Practitioner, Divine Bond (Chevalier)
Lv 12 > 3 RFS= Martial Disciple
---------------
Lv 13 > 2 RFS = Spellcasting
Lv 14 > 3 RFS = Martial Disciple
Lv 15 > 3 RFS = Martial Disciple
Lv 16 > 3 RFS = Practitioner, Smite Evil 4/day
----------------
Lv 17 > 2 RFS = Spellcasting, Divine Bond (Chevalier)
Lv 18 > 3 RFS = Practitioner, Martial Disciple
Lv 19 > 2 RFS = Martial Disciple, Smite Evil 5/day
Lv 20 > 2 RFS =

(Will finish to fill the sample by tomorrow)

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?
You been isekaied to a fantasy world, explain who are you in your past life, also, explain your character concept/build.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
It will be a sandbox, so up to players which direction they will go, main plot will be reavealed while exploring the world.

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
- Anything in d20pfsdr and aonprd is a fair game
- Spheres of Might (but no other spheres)
- Path of War
- Psionics

Fluff will be done later

droobles

2024-03-30, 09:18 PM

So, only spheres of might, no magc spheres even through feats, right? Does That also excludes veilweaving/akashic material?

Also, about RFS, does that mean we don't get to trade features before transforming it into RFS? Eg. Fighter gets full spheres trading armor training or half his feats, but now they are not equivalent anymore.

Do you have a list with the RFS of each class?

JNAProductions

2024-03-30, 10:54 PM

So, you're limited to only buying features from within your class? That seems... Kinda like just having a class.
Maybe I'm not getting what you're writing properly?

AvatarVecna

2024-03-31, 12:01 AM

- Bonus INT points from equiped/held Magic items or temporal bonuses doesn't give you extra spells known, only permanent increases does.

Was this supposed to be "doesn't give you extra spell slots"? Because high casting attribute doesn't give you extra spells known in the base system.

Classes
- All your PF class special features are transformed into Regular Feature Slots (RFS)
- All systems like Spellcasting, Martial maneuvers, Spheres, etc are transformed to 1 RFS per level
- You can buy Class special Features or system levels from original class features or any Archetype available to your class within Level restriction
- You can buy a system level with 1 RSF. I.E. A Paladin can buy 1st level of spellcasting (but cannot cast spells until Lv4 as per Paladin spellcasting progression system, same for other systems), 1 level of Martial Maneuvers and 1 level of Spheres of might spending 3 RSF at 1st level, he can continue buying levels until Lv 20 spending 3 RSF each time.
- You can buy a Bonus Feat with 1 RFS
- You can buy special Features from Prestige Classes at 2 RFS rate, you must still qualify for that Prestige Class to be able to pick from

I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly.

When I take a level in Paladin, instead of having any class features, I have "Regular Feature Slots". I have a certain number of these Slots at every level, which I can fill with class features of my choice. The list of things I can purchase using RFS is as follows:
Class features from the class I took
Class features from that classes archetypes
Subsystem access (spellcasting, spheres, maneuvers), which costs 1 RFS at every level to keep it advancing as normal
A bonus feat
Class features from PrCs (which I must qualify for, and which costs double the normal price)

Presuming that I've understood you correctly, I have several questions.

1) How many slots do we get per level in a class?

2) Does the number of slots gained change for classes that have a good chassis, or no?

3) What counts as a "feature" in the case where features receive upgrades? Is "Trap Sense" a single feature, and thus only costs 1 RFS to purchase? Or are "Trap Sense +1", "Trap Sense +2", etc all separate purchases? Similarly, is "Sneak Attack" a single feature, and thus only costs 1 RFS to purchase, or are "Sneak Attack 1d6", "Sneak Attack 2d6", etc all separate purchases? 1 RFS feels too low for Sneak Attack +10d6, but 2 RFS feels too high for any amount of Trap Sense.

4) You say we can use slots to buy bonus feats. Can we spend feats to buy slots?

5) You say we can't buy class features earlier than the class would normally get them (so, no buying a lvl 8 paladin feature at lvl 6, gotta wait). Can we save slots for later? Like if we've got a bunch of lvl 9 things we wanna buy, and not many lvl 7s, we can spend fewer slots at lvl 7 and hold onto them until lvl 9?

6) You say we can't buy class features earlier than the class would normally get them. Can we buy them late? Like, if we're lvl 8, can use slots to purchase lvl 4 abilities?

My other questions concern your example. Paladin is used as an example, and buys Paladin spellcasting, maneuvers, and sphere progression.

7) Paladin pays 1 slot per level for paladin casting. Arcanist pays 1 slot per level for arcanist casting. If they're paying the same amount of build resources, why does the paladin get worse casting?

8) Paladin has multiple SoM archetypes that give a spheres progression, but both of them are Proficient. However, if I were to select a class that has multiple archetypes with different levels of training, and I purchase that option, which progression should I use? For example, Unchained Monk has 6 SoM archetypes, one of which is Expert progression, three of which are Adept progression, and two are which have no progression at all (merely gaining bare bonus talents). Do I need to specify which one I'm taking specifically?

Shiro_Nogard

2024-03-31, 12:10 AM

Is it like taking an archetype but you can keep/trade with other different archetype? Like play a normal alchemist but trade normal bombs for "Underwater Bombs" from the aquachymist?

Talivan

2024-03-31, 08:13 AM

So, only spheres of might, no magc spheres even through feats, right? Does That also excludes veilweaving/akashic material?
Right, only SoM for now. SoP/Veil/Akashic will come in future testings

Also, about RFS, does that mean we don't get to trade features before transforming it into RFS? Eg. Fighter gets full spheres trading armor training or half his feats, but now they are not equivalent anymore.
In that case or similar for other classes, you can trade first then transform into RFS.
Ruled: You can pay the RSF equivalent cost to get Full spheres

Do you have a list with the RFS of each class?
Take fetaures from the class itself + all class archetypes from that class as the RSF pool.

So, you're limited to only buying features from within your class? That seems... Kinda like just having a class.
Maybe I'm not getting what you're writing properly?
Within your Class + Class Archetypes, that opens your pool of features to customize your basic class

Is it like taking an archetype but you can keep/trade with other different archetype? Like play a normal alchemist but trade normal bombs for "Underwater Bombs" from the aquachymist?
Yes, you got it right

Was this supposed to be "doesn't give you extra spell slots"? Because high casting attribute doesn't give you extra spells known in the base system.
That's right, will fix

When I take a level in Paladin, instead of having any class features, I have "Regular Feature Slots". I have a certain number of these Slots at every level, which I can fill with class features of my choice. The list of things I can purchase using RFS is as follows:
Class features from the class I took
Class features from that classes archetypes
Subsystem access (spellcasting, spheres, maneuvers), which costs 1 RFS at every level to keep it advancing as normal
A bonus feat
Class features from PrCs (which I must qualify for, and which costs double the normal price)

Yes, pretty much this resumes it

Presuming that I've understood you correctly, I have several questions.

1) How many slots do we get per level in a class?

2) Does the number of slots gained change for classes that have a good chassis, or no?

3) What counts as a "feature" in the case where features receive upgrades? Is "Trap Sense" a single feature, and thus only costs 1 RFS to purchase? Or are "Trap Sense +1", "Trap Sense +2", etc all separate purchases? Similarly, is "Sneak Attack" a single feature, and thus only costs 1 RFS to purchase, or are "Sneak Attack 1d6", "Sneak Attack 2d6", etc all separate purchases? 1 RFS feels too low for Sneak Attack +10d6, but 2 RFS feels too high for any amount of Trap Sense.

4) You say we can use slots to buy bonus feats. Can we spend feats to buy slots?

5) You say we can't buy class features earlier than the class would normally get them (so, no buying a lvl 8 paladin feature at lvl 6, gotta wait). Can we save slots for later? Like if we've got a bunch of lvl 9 things we wanna buy, and not many lvl 7s, we can spend fewer slots at lvl 7 and hold onto them until lvl 9?

6) You say we can't buy class features earlier than the class would normally get them. Can we buy them late? Like, if we're lvl 8, can use slots to purchase lvl 4 abilities?

My other questions concern your example. Paladin is used as an example, and buys Paladin spellcasting, maneuvers, and sphere progression.

7) Paladin pays 1 slot per level for paladin casting. Arcanist pays 1 slot per level for arcanist casting. If they're paying the same amount of build resources, why does the paladin get worse casting?

8) Paladin has multiple SoM archetypes that give a spheres progression, but both of them are Proficient. However, if I were to select a class that has multiple archetypes with different levels of training, and I purchase that option, which progression should I use? For example, Unchained Monk has 6 SoM archetypes, one of which is Expert progression, three of which are Adept progression, and two are which have no progression at all (merely gaining bare bonus talents). Do I need to specify which one I'm taking specifically?
1. Equal to the number of special features you would gain normally, i.e Paladin Lv1 = 4, Paldin Lv2 = +3, etc.
2. What do you mean with good chassis?
3. All separate, Sneak attack gives you 10 RFS and Trap sense 6 RSF (Separating between good Features and bad features will complicate things, so I stay 1 RSF per feature stage for now)
4. I will say no for this campaing, (but will reconsider it for future testings)
5. No, this will prevent someone holding all RSF to buy only high level features in later class levels. You should buy features or buy feats.
6. Yes, you can buy lower level features at higher levels
7. Paladin gets worst casting on base class by default, but both classes will get 20 RFS for it, so Arcanist have a total of 33 35 RFS and Paladins gets 46 55 RFS (And this is the whole purpose of this RSF rules, so Paladins get more things trading the bad spellcasting)
8. You can take up to Expert practicioner for the Monk and up to Proficient practicioner for the Paladin

Lioslaith

2024-03-31, 08:51 AM

Posting interest, potentially, from the other thread...

AvatarVecna

2024-03-31, 10:29 AM

1. Equal to the number of special features you would gain normally, i.e Paladin Lv1 = 4, Paldin Lv2 = +3, etc.
2. What do you mean with good chassis?
3. All separate, Sneak attack gives you 10 RFS and Trap sense 6 RSF (Separating between good Features and bad features will complicate things, so I stay 1 RSF per feature stage for now)
4. I will say no for this campaing, (but will reconsider it for future testings)
5. No, this will prevent someone holding all RSF to buy only high level features in later class levels. You should buy features or buy feats.
6. Yes, you can buy lower level features at higher levels
7. Paladin gets worst casting on base class by default, but both classes will get 20 RFS for it, so Arcanist have a total of 33 RFS and Paladins gets 46 RFS (And this is the whole purpose of this RSF rules, so Paladins get more things trading the bad spellcasting)
8. You can take up to Expert practicioner for the Monk and up to Proficient practicioner for the Paladin

1. You should probably edit the paladin example then. As paladin only gets 46 RFS, they can't actually spend 3 per level for spellcasting+maneuvers+spheres, they would have to sacrifice 14 levels worth.

2. Ignore chassis thing, was only relevant assuming a flat number of features per level.

5. Isn't that balanced by them being weaker early on? Giving up features at lvl 6 for features you'll get at lvl 9 means being underpowered from lvl 6-8, and the longer you delay, the longer you're spending underpowered.

7. Firstly, I'm counting 35 RFS for Arcanist. Are you not counting Cantrips and Greater Exploits? Secondly, Paladin doesn't get more things trading the bad spellcasting, it's still just 20 slots. Paladin has more points, but that's from having more nonspellcasting features. The spellcasting the two classes have takes up the same number of slots, but one of them is far better. Still, I can drop the argument if this is intended.

New questions that have occurred to me overnight.

A) Let's suppose I'm playing Sorcerer. At lvl 3, I purchase both the "bloodline power" and "bloodline spell" class features. Do I have to purchase these from the same bloodline, and all subsequent "bloodline" abilities from the same bloodline, or am I able to select the power from one bloodline and the spell from another, similar to how I can mix-and-match archetype features?

B) I know we can spend RFS on bonus feats, even if the base class doesn't get that many bonus feats. Can we do similar with other features that are feat-equivalent choices, taking more of them than the base class would get? For example, if I'm playing an Oracle, could I spend RFS on additional Revelations?

C) Conscript has a number of class features they can purchase via spending bonus feats, but obviously all their usual feats/talents are getting turned into RFS. Suppose that I want to purchase a Sphere Specialization. That's a single feature...that gives benefits at four different levels...and normally requires you to give up seven bonus feats. How many RFS does it cost, and when do I pay? Options:
1 RFS at level 1, and give all subsequent upgrades when those levels are reached.
1 RFS at levels 1, 3, 8, and 20, since that's when you gain benefits.
1 RFS at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and 20, since that's when you'd normally pay the bonus feats for taking this feature on a Conscript normally.

I'm assuming the answer is the second option, but I wanna be sure.

droobles

2024-03-31, 11:06 AM

Let's try this

[roll0]
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[roll5]

AvatarVecna

2024-03-31, 11:18 AM

Oh yeah

[roll0]
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ProgressPaladin

2024-03-31, 11:18 AM

Potential interest
[roll0]
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Illven

2024-03-31, 11:20 AM

Throwing some bones.

[roll0]
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JNAProductions

2024-03-31, 11:36 AM

I think we found the array.

[roll0]
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Infernally Clay

2024-03-31, 11:46 AM

So we roll a set of 4d6b3 and we pick from anyone’s set?

[roll0]
[roll1]
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I think I’ll use Illven’s. :P

Yas392

2024-03-31, 02:30 PM

So, the class houserules is FFd20 freelancer customization? Anything from d20pfsrd including third party?

[roll0]
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EDIT: Rolls pretty depressing. I'll wait to see if anyone rolled higher than Illven before picking.

Athaleon

2024-03-31, 03:38 PM

Count me interested. Definitely going with something Path of War, not sure about the others yet until I read about the custom system and setting.

thethird

2024-03-31, 06:07 PM

The class system is a bit confusing to me but I'll give this some thoughts.

ProgressPaladin

2024-03-31, 09:09 PM

I’m confused. I thought paladins only got 3 features at first level.

Ragnarok'n'Roll

2024-04-01, 12:19 AM

Definitely interested. Not sure on what yet. Still sorting through the RSF and AMP stuff.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-01, 06:40 AM

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

Currently looking at an Oracle//Summoner

With the feature system... does this mean I could trade out the summoner casting for a second eidolon of a different sort? E.g., have both a worn Eidolon via Synthesist and a regular one, then trade out the Summon Monster spell-like ability to cherry-pick from other Summoner archetypes?

droobles

2024-04-01, 07:46 AM

So, using a fighter + runesinger archetype + learned duelist (rondelero duelist) archetype + myrmidon archetype I would get 70 rfs, which then I use to buy all the class features I really want.

Trading half of the bonus feats, armor training and weapon training to get:

05 rfs bonus feats
05 rfs bravery
01 rfs weapon mastery
01 rfs runes
20 rfs expert practioner progression
01 rfs grit
05 rfs deeds
20 rfs path of war progression
05 rfs duelist stance
04 rfs duelist training
03 rfs (precise thrusting, science of the blade, surgical strike)

Is that how it works?

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-01, 11:09 AM

Interested, just need to see what I get to start thinking what to play.

Can we take 3p material from the d20pfsrd page?

Try 1
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Try 2
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Talivan

2024-04-01, 01:05 PM

Hello guys, Letme review your feedback and answer your questions later tonight

samduke

2024-04-01, 04:27 PM

well i am completely confused to the whole RFS bit but lets see what the dice gods say

[roll0]
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Breitheamh

2024-04-01, 06:56 PM

AvatarVecna

2024-04-01, 07:22 PM

I'm confused on this as well, but I do like Pathfinder and I haven't played in a while, so let's throw in another set for everyone to pick from, though let's be honest, no one's gonna roll better than Illven. That's an insane stat roll.

[roll0]
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Edit: yeah, see? Toldya

Illven's rolls are in the top 0.05% of all rolls. If 2000 people rolled stats, Illven's would have a good chance of still being the best rolled.

Dakrsidder

2024-04-01, 08:41 PM

[roll0]
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Talivan

2024-04-02, 03:55 AM

Sorry guys, It will take more time to answer as I still looking for adequate solution for the Conscript and Fighter classes RSF translation

droobles

2024-04-02, 06:54 AM

Sorry guys, It will take more time to answer as I still looking for adequate solution for the Conscript and Fighter classes RSF translation

I guess we just need a detailed example on how to calculate RFS and if we apply archetype changes before calculating (like I did with the fighter example I showed).

From what I understood most abilities will either be a system (casting, maneuvers, etc.) That gives 20 rfs, single effects 1 rfs or with some progression 1 rfs for each upgrade (such as sneak attack, or conscript specializations).

Would rage and bard songs be a system or abilities with upgrades?

Corner cases would be animal companions, familiars and eidolons. The first and second cases are feat equivalents and usually limited to only 1. Eidolons are companions on steroids, so it is your ruling on that one.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-02, 06:59 AM

... what about non-RP'd races? I'm currently looking at Kitsune.

thethird

2024-04-02, 08:47 AM

I guess we just need a detailed example on how to calculate RFS and if we apply archetype changes before calculating (like I did with the fighter example I showed).

From what I understood most abilities will either be a system (casting, maneuvers, etc.) That gives 20 rfs, single effects 1 rfs or with some progression 1 rfs for each upgrade (such as sneak attack, or conscript specializations).

Would rage and bard songs be a system or abilities with upgrades?

Corner cases would be animal companions, familiars and eidolons. The first and second cases are feat equivalents and usually limited to only 1. Eidolons are companions on steroids, so it is your ruling on that one.

As someone who was considering soulknife // aegis I have so many questions that I can't really start to phrase them.

Like how many astral suits can I get going? Or how many mind blades?

There is also the whole question of improvements. I am very confused.

Some suggestions that might improve things:
1) archetype incompatibility is not a thing you can just trade whatever of an archetype. You don't need to grab the whole thing. And if you traded away whatever you would use to grab it you can then trade trade that too.
2) you get two sets of class features, if you don't trade them away they aren't doing anything for you but this way you can get more archetypes than you normally could.

I don't really know how I would fit the prestige classes thing there.

Zhentarim

2024-04-02, 10:35 AM

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]
[roll6]
[roll7]
[roll8]
[roll9]
[roll10]
[roll11]
[roll12]
[roll13]
[roll14]
[roll15]
[roll16]
[roll17]
[roll18]
[roll19]
[roll20]
[roll21]
[roll22]
[roll23]
[roll24]
[roll25]
[roll26]
[roll27]
[roll28]
[roll29]
[roll30]
[roll31]
[roll32]
[roll33]
[roll34]
[roll35]

Of these, set 5 looks best, and I'll be a human gestalt Bard (Chronicler of Worlds) and Alchemist (Mind Chemist).

17+2+1= 20 int
15 dex
13 con
13 wis
12 str
10 cha

favored class bonus: +6 skillpoints

Backstory: Hailing from Earth, Tom Finklestein is an avid enjoyer of the Isekai genera and a doctoral student in chemical engineering. One day at a comic con, Tom touches a magical comic book and is transported to a faraway fantasy world.

Build: This build is a skillmonkey with a emphasis on gathering knowledge, identifying magic items, and social skills.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-02, 06:16 PM

Making some assumptions for now so I can work on the build in a slightly more than speculative manner....

1) Major pets (animal companions, Phantoms, Eidolons, et cetera) are considered systems, and are one rfs/level. Familiars areone and done (equivalent to a feat).
2) Most things cost 1rfs whenever they advance (e.g,the Animal domain costs one each atfirst and fourth; the Oracle's Cursecosts at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th; Smite Evil costs each time the paladin gets a usefor the day; etcetera)
3) Multiples of the same choice are permitted (e.g., an Oracle with two mysteries, a Druid with two Animal Companions, et cetera) as long as you pay for them.
4) Third party content is OK from d20pfsrd.com.
5) RFS "crossing" from one side of the gestalt to the other is OK (e.g., losing Sneak Attack from the rogue to pay for more Paladin Smites or something)
6) Races without an RP listing are OK.
7) aonsrd.com content is limited to Pathfinder 1 (so no playing Starfinder races)

Please let me know where I go wrong with the above.

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-02, 06:27 PM

(4d6b3)[11]
(4d6b3)[13]
(4d6b3)[15]
(4d6b3)[13]
(4d6b3)[10]
(4d6b3)[13]

Taking try 2
Aasimar (Mod stat), Majordomo&DI / Artisan or Blacksmith

Str [11]
Dex [13] +2
Con [13]
Int [15] +2
Wis [13]
Cha [10]

Going to make one hell of a butler. :P

droobles

2024-04-02, 06:35 PM

Rokku

2024-04-02, 09:01 PM

For my build I just need to know if we can apply archetypes before turning everything into rfs.

If I understand it I think we can just pick and choose from any features any archetype of the class has?

Duqueen

2024-04-02, 09:17 PM

If I understand it I think we can just pick and choose from any features any archetype of the class has?

yes, but in my example I increased the total RFS applying archetypes before calculating RFS.

Example: Vanilla Fighter 20

11 RFS: Bonus Feats
05 RFS: Bravery
05 RFS: Armor TRaining + Armor Mastery
05 RFS: Weapon TRaining + Weapon MAstery

Total: 26 RFS

Now, if you apply Runesinger archetype you trade Armor Training/Armor Mastery for Runes and Expert Combat talents progression

so you trade 05 RFS for 21 RFS, 16 RFS difference.

The same thing happens if you apply the Myrmidon Archetype, you trade 4 bonus feats for a Martial progression, plus stances, grit and deeds.

so you trade 04 RFS for another 25 RFS.

I you just use the RFS from vanilla, fighter gets shafted.

Talivan

2024-04-03, 04:18 AM

1. You should probably edit the paladin example then. As paladin only gets 46 RFS, they can't actually spend 3 per level for spellcasting+maneuvers+spheres, they would have to sacrifice 14 levels worth.

2. Ignore chassis thing, was only relevant assuming a flat number of features per level.

5. Isn't that balanced by them being weaker early on? Giving up features at lvl 6 for features you'll get at lvl 9 means being underpowered from lvl 6-8, and the longer you delay, the longer you're spending underpowered.

7. Firstly, I'm counting 35 RFS for Arcanist. Are you not counting Cantrips and Greater Exploits? Secondly, Paladin doesn't get more things trading the bad spellcasting, it's still just 20 slots. Paladin has more points, but that's from having more nonspellcasting features. The spellcasting the two classes have takes up the same number of slots, but one of them is far better. Still, I can drop the argument if this is intended.
Well, after revieing it you have some reason here, Paladin is paying same for less casting regardless of having more features, so, I will weight Full systems and partial systems costs, Rules will be updated

New questions that have occurred to me overnight.

A) Let's suppose I'm playing Sorcerer. At lvl 3, I purchase both the "bloodline power" and "bloodline spell" class features. Do I have to purchase these from the same bloodline, and all subsequent "bloodline" abilities from the same bloodline, or am I able to select the power from one bloodline and the spell from another, similar to how I can mix-and-match archetype features?

B) I know we can spend RFS on bonus feats, even if the base class doesn't get that many bonus feats. Can we do similar with other features that are feat-equivalent choices, taking more of them than the base class would get? For example, if I'm playing an Oracle, could I spend RFS on additional Revelations?

C) Conscript has a number of class features they can purchase via spending bonus feats, but obviously all their usual feats/talents are getting turned into RFS. Suppose that I want to purchase a Sphere Specialization. That's a single feature...that gives benefits at four different levels...and normally requires you to give up seven bonus feats. How many RFS does it cost, and when do I pay? Options:
1 RFS at level 1, and give all subsequent upgrades when those levels are reached.
1 RFS at levels 1, 3, 8, and 20, since that's when you gain benefits.
1 RFS at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and 20, since that's when you'd normally pay the bonus feats for taking this feature on a Conscript normally.

I'm assuming the answer is the second option, but I wanna be sure.
A. Since the whole purpose is to have a customized builds I would say yes
B. Yes you can buy Revelation Feature (Single Feature) many times
C. A Feature with benefits at different levels will be called Staged Features, and you can pay 1 RSF per stage at given level, I will update rules for this. So yes, Option 2 is correct

So, the class houserules is FFd20 freelancer customization? Anything from d20pfsrd including third party?
Don't know about FFd20, but will review it in the future to get more ideas for this PF mode. Yes anything from d20pfsrd is a fair play

I’m confused. I thought paladins only got 3 features at first level.
It's 3 RSF + 1 RSF from translating spellcasting into RSF (1 per level)

Currently looking at an Oracle//Summoner

With the feature system... does this mean I could trade out the summoner casting for a second eidolon of a different sort? E.g., have both a worn Eidolon via Synthesist and a regular one, then trade out the Summon Monster spell-like ability to cherry-pick from other Summoner archetypes?
Yes! :smallsmile:

Interested, just need to see what I get to start thinking what to play.

Can we take 3p material from the d20pfsrd page?

Yes, 3P is allowed

... what about non-RP'd races? I'm currently looking at Kitsune.
Kitsune is 10 RP according to calculations:

0 RP: Standard ability score modifier
0 RP: Medium size
0 RP: Humanoid
0 RP: Normal base speed
1 RP: Low-light vision
3 RP: Change shape (lesser)
2 RP: Agile = skill bonus
2 RP: Kitsune magic ~ Gnome magic
2 RP: Natural weapons = Bite (increased by one size category)
0 RP: Standard languages
-----------
10 RP

So, using a fighter + runesinger archetype + learned duelist (rondelero duelist) archetype + myrmidon archetype I would get 70 rfs, which then I use to buy all the class features I really want.

Trading half of the bonus feats, armor training and weapon training to get:

05 rfs bonus feats
05 rfs bravery
01 rfs weapon mastery
01 rfs runes
20 rfs expert practioner progression
01 rfs grit
05 rfs deeds
20 rfs path of war progression
05 rfs duelist stance
04 rfs duelist training
03 rfs (precise thrusting, science of the blade, surgical strike)

Is that how it works?

For my build I just need to know if we can apply archetypes before turning everything into rfs.

yes, but in my example I increased the total RFS applying archetypes before calculating RFS.

Example: Vanilla Fighter 20

11 RFS: Bonus Feats
05 RFS: Bravery
05 RFS: Armor TRaining + Armor Mastery
05 RFS: Weapon TRaining + Weapon MAstery

Total: 26 RFS

Now, if you apply Runesinger archetype you trade Armor Training/Armor Mastery for Runes and Expert Combat talents progression

so you trade 05 RFS for 21 RFS, 16 RFS difference.

The same thing happens if you apply the Myrmidon Archetype, you trade 4 bonus feats for a Martial progression, plus stances, grit and deeds.

so you trade 04 RFS for another 25 RFS.

I you just use the RFS from vanilla, fighter gets shafted.
Sadly, I will have to take back what I said about trading before traslating, 70 RSF is somewhat too much and is not the intention for now. You can still buy Expert Practicioner by paying 5 RSF (Armor trainning x4 + Armor Mastery) because Fighter Archetypes allows it, same for Martial Initiator System by paying 4 RFS (4 feats at given level payment).

As someone who was considering soulknife // aegis I have so many questions that I can't really start to phrase them.

Like how many astral suits can I get going? Or how many mind blades?
You can get as many Astral suits/Mindblades you can pay for (Those are Staged Features), you must track and buy stages for each suits and minblades separately.

The class system is a bit confusing to me but I'll give this some thoughts.

well i am completely confused to the whole RFS bit but lets see what the dice gods say

I'm confused on this as well, but I do like Pathfinder and I haven't played in a while, so let's throw in another set for everyone to pick from, though let's be honest, no one's gonna roll better than Illven. That's an insane stat roll.

There is also the whole question of improvements. I am very confused.
Please don't hold back, shot as many questions as you have

Some suggestions that might improve things:
1) archetype incompatibility is not a thing you can just trade whatever of an archetype. You don't need to grab the whole thing. And if you traded away whatever you would use to grab it you can then trade trade that too.
2) you get two sets of class features, if you don't trade them away they aren't doing anything for you but this way you can get more archetypes than you normally could.

I don't really know how I would fit the prestige classes thing there.
1. That is a thing already in this customization, you can cherry pick from all archetypes of a given class
2. We will keep the original set of class features for now, I may increase the amount of RSF a class can have in the future
3. For prestige classes, you can also cherry pick features with 2 conditions: First, you must qualify for the said PrC and Second, you must pay 2 RFS for a Feature from a PrC

Making some assumptions for now so I can work on the build in a slightly more than speculative manner....

1) Major pets (animal companions, Phantoms, Eidolons, et cetera) are considered systems, and are one rfs/level. Familiars areone and done (equivalent to a feat).
2) Most things cost 1rfs whenever they advance (e.g,the Animal domain costs one each atfirst and fourth; the Oracle's Cursecosts at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th; Smite Evil costs each time the paladin gets a usefor the day; etcetera)
3) Multiples of the same choice are permitted (e.g., an Oracle with two mysteries, a Druid with two Animal Companions, et cetera) as long as you pay for them.
4) Third party content is OK from d20pfsrd.com.
5) RFS "crossing" from one side of the gestalt to the other is OK (e.g., losing Sneak Attack from the rogue to pay for more Paladin Smites or something)
6) Races without an RP listing are OK.
7) aonsrd.com content is limited to Pathfinder 1 (so no playing Starfinder races)

Please let me know where I go wrong with the above.
1. Familiar = Simple Feature, Animal Companion and similar = Staged Feature, Eidolon and similar = System Feature
2. Yes, these are called now Staged Features, you need to pay for each stage
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Nope, each side has it's own RFS pool, but that's an interesting game mode for the future
6. Yes, but you need to weight the RP cost (as Kitsune sample above), and you can increased it to a 15 RP (maximum allowed), same for all other races under 15 RP
7. Yes, do I need to specify it?

If I understand it I think we can just pick and choose from any features any archetype of the class has?
That is correct!

I guess we just need a detailed example on how to calculate RFS and if we apply archetype changes before calculating (like I did with the fighter example I showed).

From what I understood most abilities will either be a system (casting, maneuvers, etc.) That gives 20 rfs, single effects 1 rfs or with some progression 1 rfs for each upgrade (such as sneak attack, or conscript specializations). Yes, I will update rules and give a sample

Would rage and bard songs be a system or abilities with upgrades?
These are Staged Features (abilities with upgrades)

Corner cases would be animal companions, familiars and eidolons. The first and second cases are feat equivalents and usually limited to only 1. Eidolons are companions on steroids, so it is your ruling on that one.
Familiar = Simple Feature, Animal Companion and similar = Staged Feature, Eidolon and similar = System Feature

The class system is a bit confusing to me but I'll give this some thoughts.

well i am completely confused to the whole RFS bit but lets see what the dice gods say

I'm confused on this as well, but I do like Pathfinder and I haven't played in a while, so let's throw in another set for everyone to pick from, though let's be honest, no one's gonna roll better than Illven. That's an insane stat roll.
Please ask your questions. I will put a sample in the rules.

Yas392

2024-04-03, 04:24 AM

Is Campaign traits OK with you?

Talivan

2024-04-03, 04:43 AM

Is Campaign traits OK with you?
These are fine to use

Jack_Simth

2024-04-03, 06:42 AM

Don't know about FFd20, but will review it in the future to get more ideas for this PF mode. Yes anything from d20pfsrd is a fair play
Final Fantasy d20 (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/) has a much higher baseline feature set in their classes than does standard Pathfinder. Take a look at the Illusionist (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/base-classes/illusionist/), for example: Full casting, there are nine levels where the class gets two non-casting features on the class table... and "two per level" is as low as it goes. Many levels get three features, and a few get four or more. Ignoring the cantrips and limit breaks universal features, they have 20 (casting) + 56 (table entries) = 76 RFS... and I picked that as a random caster example from the class list. Most others work similarly.

Yes, 3P is allowed
Handy.

Kitsune is 10 RP according to calculations:

0 RP: Standard ability score modifier
0 RP: Medium size
0 RP: Humanoid
0 RP: Normal base speed
1 RP: Low-light vision
3 RP: Change shape (lesser)
2 RP: Agile = skill bonus
2 RP: Kitsune magic ~ Gnome magic
2 RP: Natural weapons = Bite (increased by one size category)
0 RP: Standard languages
-----------
10 RP
Which means I could grab two 1st level at-will spell like abilities (or one at 2nd) for four points and get two bonus class skills for the "final" point. Handy.

Are spells tied to alternate systems valid for this? I'm specifically looking at Heroic Fortune (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroic-fortune) with the intent of being a between-combat recharging station for the entire party (the "recall" option from Using Hero Points (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/hero-points)), allowing everyone to go nova every combat.

My alternate plan for that would be Celestial Healing and possibly Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon depending on my final class picks.

1. Familiar = Simple Feature, Animal Companion and similar = Staged Feature, Eidolon and similar = System Feature
Note that an Animal Companion gets something at every level except 7th, 11th, and 19th. So it's a very expensive staged feature (a limited version of which can also be had for 2 or 3 feats, with a fourth ).

Also... you're discussing class features as a complete pool on a 20th level build (e.g., casting is 20 RFS). Are we to approach them in that manner, aka, it doesn't matter what level the "traded out" feature comes from or the "traded in" feature shows up at?

2. Yes, these are called now Staged Features, you need to pay for each stage
3. Yes
4. Yes

Cool, cool, cool...

5. Nope, each side has it's own RFS pool, but that's an interesting game mode for the future
But feats are valid choices for RFS slots, so in trading out, say, Paladin casting, the Whatever//Paladin would then have twenty feats that are simple generic feats, (potentially applying to the other side: e.g., an [caster]//Paladin picking up metamagic and item creation feats from losing Paladin Casting)?

And... speaking of item creation feats, does pre-game crafting grant the discount (potentially making double the game's already doubled WBL) or is it just fluff?

6. Yes, but you need to weight the RP cost (as Kitsune sample above), and you can increased it to a 15 RP (maximum allowed), same for all other races under 15 RP
7. Yes, do I need to specify it?
Not really, I was just making sure.

Zhentarim

2024-04-03, 10:36 AM

AvatarVecna

2024-04-03, 11:33 AM

I have a question regarding animal companions.

In a standard game (no gestalt), animal companions are...generally wasted on classes other than druid, because druid list has a lot of powerful spells on it that focus around supporting the animal companion, and classes without the ability to supplement their buddy with 9th lvl spell support suffer in comparison. This problem is made worse in gestalt, as while the main PC has massive gains in their capabilities, the animal companion does not. If it's not a huge issue, I'd like to be able to stack animal companion progressions on the same companion, rather than having two fragile useless companions. Is that okay?

EDIT: On a similar note, could the animal companion use a rolled stat array instead of their default?

Dakrsidder

2024-04-03, 12:05 PM

As people seem to be making different assumptions and yet no one has asked about it, I’ll go for it. For generating attributes, you wrote:

- Everyone rolls a set of 4d6b3 six times, then you can pick the set you like the most from all rolled sets.

By roll a set of 4d6b3 six times, did you mean roll a set of six 4d6b3 once, roll a set of six 4d6b3 six times, or something else? Because if the first, the only option for picking sets other than your own is taking others, which is what most people seem to assume, while the second, you’d probably be limited to the six you rolled.

Edit: There are archetypes that change the main stat used for class features. Would that in of itself count as a class feature?

Talivan

2024-04-03, 02:29 PM

Final Fantasy d20 (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/) has a much higher baseline feature set in their classes than does standard Pathfinder. Take a look at the Illusionist (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/base-classes/illusionist/), for example: Full casting, there are nine levels where the class gets two non-casting features on the class table... and "two per level" is as low as it goes. Many levels get three features, and a few get four or more. Ignoring the cantrips and limit breaks universal features, they have 20 (casting) + 56 (table entries) = 76 RFS... and I picked that as a random caster example from the class list. Most others work similarly.
Thanks for the FFd20 reference!

Are spells tied to alternate systems valid for this? I'm specifically looking at Heroic Fortune (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroic-fortune) with the intent of being a between-combat recharging station for the entire party (the "recall" option from Using Hero Points (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/hero-points)), allowing everyone to go nova every combat.
Yes, lets give Hero points a try, same for Stamina rules

Also... you're discussing class features as a complete pool on a 20th level build (e.g., casting is 20 RFS). Are we to approach them in that manner, aka, it doesn't matter what level the "traded out" feature comes from or the "traded in" feature shows up at?
Didn't get what you asking, can you give me sample?

But feats are valid choices for RFS slots, so in trading out, say, Paladin casting, the Whatever//Paladin would then have twenty feats that are simple generic feats, (potentially applying to the other side: e.g., an [caster]//Paladin picking up metamagic and item creation feats from losing Paladin Casting)?
That is OK

And... speaking of item creation feats, does pre-game crafting grant the discount (potentially making double the game's already doubled WBL) or is it just fluff?
Not really, I was just making sure.
I will say no to Crafting feats, I already give you double WBL, rules updated :smallsmile:.

Tallivan: Is this an acceptable build/backstory, or were you looking for a longer backstory and/or a different kind of build?
Yes, that backstory should do the trick. Are you planning to go straight forward on Chronicler of Worlds and Mind Chemist?, aren't you customizing your build?

I have a question regarding animal companions.

In a standard game (no gestalt), animal companions are...generally wasted on classes other than druid, because druid list has a lot of powerful spells on it that focus around supporting the animal companion, and classes without the ability to supplement their buddy with 9th lvl spell support suffer in comparison. This problem is made worse in gestalt, as while the main PC has massive gains in their capabilities, the animal companion does not. If it's not a huge issue, I'd like to be able to stack animal companion progressions on the same companion, rather than having two fragile useless companions. Is that okay?

EDIT: On a similar note, could the animal companion use a rolled stat array instead of their default?
I will allow to stack animal companion progressions and see how it goes, but you have to use default stat array

As people seem to be making different assumptions and yet no one has asked about it, I’ll go for it. For generating attributes, you wrote:

By roll a set of 4d6b3 six times, did you mean roll a set of six 4d6b3 once, roll a set of six 4d6b3 six times, or something else? Because if the first, the only option for picking sets other than your own is taking others, which is what most people seem to assume, while the second, you’d probably be limited to the six you rolled.
Sorry for the confusion, its 4d6b3 x6 only

Edit: There are archetypes that change the main stat used for class features. Would that in of itself count as a class feature?
You can change the main stat by picking the Feature that allows it

Zhentarim

2024-04-03, 02:49 PM

Dakrsidder

2024-04-03, 02:52 PM

Sorry for the confusion, its 4d6b3 x6 only

As in 4d6b3 x6 once? There's also the second bit, as in, by pick the set you like most, do you mean picking other ppl's rolls, which will probably be Illven's?

Probably going to roll up with a Bard//Monk then using sensei and all that

Talivan

2024-04-03, 03:11 PM

I'm tempted to do some customization, but I know I get analysis paralysis if I let myself get too far in the weeds with options.

Int-based castings, all knowledge skills as class skills, bardic knowledge bonus, and the mind-chemist doubling int-bonus on int-based skill checks are the 4 main features that drew me to that combination of chronicler and mindchemist. I'm about to go take an exam. I'll think over what I can swap out later.
Don't stress yourself, just change the things you don't like about the Archetype with other achetypes.

Edit: if I could sell off the alchemist formula list and the bard spell list, I think I'd like the wizard spellbook and wizard spellcasting, plus maybe a familiar if I sell off something else?
Sorry, but you have to stick with Alchemist Formulas and Bard casting spells. you can still grab Wizard spells into formulas as per base rules

As in 4d6b3 x6 once? There's also the second bit, as in, by pick the set you like most, do you mean picking other ppl's rolls, which will probably be Illven's?
Yes, you can choose from other player's rolls

Zhentarim

2024-04-03, 05:10 PM

Don't stress yourself, just change the things you don't like about the Archetype with other achetypes.

Sorry, but you have to stick with Alchemist Formulas and Bard casting spells. you can still grab Wizard spells into formulas as per base rules

Yes, you can choose from other player's rolls

That can work. I'll do it that way.

Yas392

2024-04-03, 07:02 PM

For witch's patron spells, can we take part of the staged features like patron without the spells?

Talivan

2024-04-03, 11:08 PM

For witch's patron spells, can we take part of the staged features like patron without the spells?
Yes, you can buy partial levels of Staged Features.

thethird

2024-04-04, 05:43 AM

You can get as many Astral suits/Mindblades you can pay for (Those are Staged Features), you must track and buy stages for each suits and minblades separately.

I have many questions, sorry :smallfrown:

Mind blade:
1) The only mind blade stage, would be the enhanced mind blade class feature. That improves at 3rd and every 3 levels from there. Correct?
2) If I take panoply of blades (from the psychic armory) can I have other mind blade modifications be part of the panoply? In particular I want the storied blade of the living legend to grab thousand blades of the champion and have a lot of different weapons telekinetically floating around me.

Astral Armor:
1) What are the stages proper?
1.a) Most astral armors (not all) get free customizations, at 1st, 2nd, 12th level. Are those stages?
1.b) Some customizations get increments to the armor at some levels, for example an integrator gets an improvement to natural armor at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th level. Are those stages?
1.c) Aegis get customizations. Are those stages? If so what's the ratio? 1 customization point = one stage? Or as many customization points as you would get on a level = one stage
1.d) If an aegis gets several things from astral armor at the same level, are all those things one stage? Or are each a different stage? Practical example, an integrator gets at 1st level the mechanized body class feature (that replaces astral armor), that's one stage. It also gets 2 free customizations (is that an additional stage? 2 additional stages? 0 additional?), an increase to their natural armor (is that an additional stage? 0 additional?) and 3 customization points (are those stages?)
1.e) What's the effective aegis level (it limits the accessible customizations). Is it my level irregardless of how many stages do I spend?

droobles

2024-04-04, 06:01 AM

I have many questions, sorry :smallfrown:

Mind blade:
1) The only mind blade stage, would be the enhanced mind blade class feature. That improves at 3rd and every 3 levels from there. Correct?
2) If I take panoply of blades (from the psychic armory) can I have other mind blade modifications be part of the panoply? In particular I want the storied blade of the living legend to grab thousand blades of the champion and have a lot of different weapons telekinetically floating around me.

Astral Armor:
1) What are the stages proper?
1.a) Most astral armors (not all) get free customizations, at 1st, 2nd, 12th level. Are those stages?
1.b) Some customizations get increments to the armor at some levels, for example an integrator gets an improvement to natural armor at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th level. Are those stages?
1.c) Aegis get customizations. Are those stages? If so what's the ratio? 1 customization point = one stage? Or as many customization points as you would get on a level = one stage
1.d) If an aegis gets several things from astral armor at the same level, are all those things one stage? Or are each a different stage? Practical example, an integrator gets at 1st level the mechanized body class feature (that replaces astral armor), that's one stage. It also gets 2 free customizations (is that an additional stage? 2 additional stages? 0 additional?), an increase to their natural armor (is that an additional stage? 0 additional?) and 3 customization points (are those stages?)
1.e) What's the effective aegis level (it limits the accessible customizations). Is it my level irregardless of how many stages do I spend?

Not the gm, but customizations and its points are more similar to a system such as casting. Perhaps you could get one full astral armor (with the customizations included) as a system, and other abilities as stages.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-04, 07:05 AM

Thanks for the FFd20 reference!
Happy to help.

Yes, lets give Hero points a try, same for Stamina rules
Recharging station is a go, then. No ten minute adventuring day if I get in, just ten minute coffee breaks.

Didn't get what you asking, can you give me sample?

Okay, so, you're talking about classes like they're full sets - e.g., Paladin casting is 20 RFS because it's a system, and is paid for from 1st, despite not doing anything until 4th. Level 1 Paladin gets four to six RFS (Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, spellcasting, possibly proficiency with weapons and armor). Three at 2nd (Divine grace, lay on hands, casting), four at 3rd (Aura of courage, divine health, mercy, casting), and three at 4th (Channel positive energy, smite evil, and casting). After that, it's essentially two/level (one named feature, plus casting)... well, depending on how you count Divine Bond (it's a non-progressing one-off that references a progression for the effects).

I just want to make sure that we only get the Regular Feature Slots as we level into the things we're trading out, rather than getting them all at once and being able to... "front load" very heavily by nabbing things from archetypes that trade out the low level things.

That is OK
Cool...

I will say no to Crafting feats, I already give you double WBL, rules updated :smallsmile:.
Is that no crafting feats at all, or "they don't work for starting wealth"? The two are different when it comes to crafting some things (most notably constructs, which always obey their creators even if they've been told to obey someone else), and also long-term planning.

I will allow to stack animal companion progressions and see how it goes, but you have to use default stat array
Does that apply to other pets as well? A double progression Synthesist Eidolon would really let me mix it up in melee.

Hmm... what would a 12th level animal companion look like... stating a "Cat, big" for that....

Size Large;
Speed 40 ft.;
AC 25 (+11 natural armor, -1 size, +5 Dex, +4 Armor) Touch 14, flat-footed 20
Attack bite +14 (1d8+8 + Grab), 2 claws +14 (1d6+8 + Grab);
Ability Scores Str 26, Dex 20, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10;
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6+8);
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
HP: 10d8+30 (75)
7 BAB
Fort +10
Ref +12
Will +5
10 skill points (ten ranks in any one skill; go with either Perception or Survival for a +15)
5 feats (ignoring these for now)
Ability Score Increase * 2 (went with +1 Str/Dex)
Multiattack (does nothing, as claw, bite, and rake are all primary)
Evasion
Devotion
Link
Share Spells

... and that's before selecting the feats (Improved Natural Armor, Weapon Focus (Claw and/or bite), and Improved Natural Attack (claw and/or bite) might be handy), spending anything on equipment (e.g., +1 Mithral Chain Shirt Barding for five points of cheap AC), long-term buffs (Magic Vestments, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, and so on), or short-term buffs. It's also a pretty vanilla companion; grabbing, say, Monstrous Mount on the PC for a Griffon increases the AC by four, HP by ten, adds Darkvision and Flight, lets it take any feat (including armor proficiency for proper cheap AC) and not worry about tricks or handle animal checks, and only reduces the strength modifier by three points.

This may be perfectly fine; the question is "do you expect a pet to outshine a PC"?

... and hopefully nobody triples up an animal companion.

AvatarVecna

2024-04-04, 10:43 AM

Happy to help.
Recharging station is a go, then. No ten minute adventuring day if I get in, just ten minute coffee breaks.

Okay, so, you're talking about classes like they're full sets - e.g., Paladin casting is 20 RFS because it's a system, and is paid for from 1st, despite not doing anything until 4th. Level 1 Paladin gets four to six RFS (Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, spellcasting, possibly proficiency with weapons and armor). Three at 2nd (Divine grace, lay on hands, casting), four at 3rd (Aura of courage, divine health, mercy, casting), and three at 4th (Channel positive energy, smite evil, and casting). After that, it's essentially two/level (one named feature, plus casting)... well, depending on how you count Divine Bond (it's a non-progressing one-off that references a progression for the effects).

I just want to make sure that we only get the Regular Feature Slots as we level into the things we're trading out, rather than getting them all at once and being able to... "front load" very heavily by nabbing things from archetypes that trade out the low level things.

Cool...
Is that no crafting feats at all, or "they don't work for starting wealth"? The two are different when it comes to crafting some things (most notably constructs, which always obey their creators even if they've been told to obey someone else), and also long-term planning.

Does that apply to other pets as well? A double progression Synthesist Eidolon would really let me mix it up in melee.

Hmm... what would a 12th level animal companion look like... stating a "Cat, big" for that....

Size Large;
Speed 40 ft.;
AC 25 (+11 natural armor, -1 size, +5 Dex, +4 Armor) Touch 14, flat-footed 20
Attack bite +14 (1d8+8 + Grab), 2 claws +14 (1d6+8 + Grab);
Ability Scores Str 26, Dex 20, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10;
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6+8);
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
HP: 10d8+30 (75)
7 BAB
Fort +10
Ref +12
Will +5
10 skill points (ten ranks in any one skill; go with either Perception or Survival for a +15)
5 feats (ignoring these for now)
Ability Score Increase * 2 (went with +1 Str/Dex)
Multiattack (does nothing, as claw, bite, and rake are all primary)
Evasion
Devotion
Link
Share Spells

... and that's before selecting the feats (Improved Natural Armor, Weapon Focus (Claw and/or bite), and Improved Natural Attack (claw and/or bite) might be handy), spending anything on equipment (e.g., +1 Mithral Chain Shirt Barding for five points of cheap AC), long-term buffs (Magic Vestments, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, and so on), or short-term buffs. It's also a pretty vanilla companion; grabbing, say, Monstrous Mount on the PC for a Griffon increases the AC by four, HP by ten, adds Darkvision and Flight, lets it take any feat (including armor proficiency for proper cheap AC) and not worry about tricks or handle animal checks, and only reduces the strength modifier by three points.

This may be perfectly fine; the question is "do you expect a pet to outshine a PC"?

... and hopefully nobody triples up an animal companion.

If it helps I'm planning less for optimization and more for making a drake companion that isn't 1000% terrible

ProgressPaladin

2024-04-04, 01:56 PM

If I play swashbuckler, does each deed give it’s on RFS? Each level of deed?

Jack_Simth

2024-04-04, 05:28 PM

If it helps I'm planning less for optimization and more for making a drake companion that isn't 1000% terrible

Isn't that just a matter of hiring a casting of Polymorph Any Object to turn it into a Medium-sized dragon? Kingdom(Animal), Class(dragon type), Related(match the elemental subtype). Four point strength boost (from the chained duplication of Form of the Dragon 1), 5 attacks (bite, claw, claw, wing, wing), flight, Darkvision, a little energy resistance, and four points of natural armor.

AvatarVecna

2024-04-04, 06:17 PM

Isn't that just a matter of hiring a casting of Polymorph Any Object to turn it into a Medium-sized dragon? Kingdom(Animal), Class(dragon type), Related(match the elemental subtype). Four point strength boost (from the chained duplication of Form of the Dragon 1), 5 attacks (bite, claw, claw, wing, wing), flight, Darkvision, a little energy resistance, and four points of natural armor.

That would be the easy and optimal way to do it. But what if I did it with just double drake progress instead? Maybe even triple drake progress?

Jack_Simth

2024-04-04, 06:46 PM

That would be the easy and optimal way to do it. But what if I did it with just double drake progress instead? Maybe even triple drake progress?

Then the full bab d12 hit dice with monk saves starts outpacing other melee types. A 6th level Drake has five hit dice, 12 str, and is small. A 12th level one has nine hit dice, sixteen strength, and is medium. An 18th level drake is Huge with 24 strength and 14 hit dice.

AvatarVecna

2024-04-04, 07:27 PM

Then the full bab d12 hit dice with monk saves starts outpacing other melee types. A 6th level Drake has five hit dice, 12 str, and is small. A 12th level one has nine hit dice, sixteen strength, and is medium. An 18th level drake is Huge with 24 strength and 14 hit dice.

Sounds like double is about exactly where I was hoping then

Arael666

2024-04-04, 10:06 PM

I'm having quite a hard time understanding the build rules. I mean, I though I understood but then the listed example contradicts my understanding.

The main issue is the palading gets 20 RFS for his spellcasting, but to buy palading spellcasting back he only spends 5 RFS?

Duqueen

2024-04-04, 10:29 PM

EDIT: hadn't seen the rules update. Dang it, now that left me confused too. trade spellcasting for 20 RFS and buy it back for 5 RFS?

Well, not that I care much for it, I am not using casting classes anyway.:smallbiggrin:

I'm having quite a hard time understanding the build rules. I mean, I though I understood but then the listed example contradicts my understanding.

The main issue is the palading gets 20 RFS for his spellcasting, but to buy palading spellcasting back he only spends 5 RFS?

Yas392

2024-04-04, 10:32 PM

@Talivan Is witches patron spell feature 3 or 4 RFS?

Talivan

2024-04-05, 12:44 AM

Hello Guys, Life happens, too bussy today, will answer questions tomorrow, sorry

Jack_Simth

2024-04-05, 06:58 AM

Spellcasting:
- We will using this modified spellcasting system (similar to Psionics):
- Arcane Spell slots translated to Arcane Magic Points (AMP), same for Divine (DMP) and Special spellcasting such as Alchemist Class (SMP), with a rate of 1 MP per Slot Level
- Spells can be casted using MP equal to spell level
- Metamagic adds to MP cost, you are restricted to spend MP equal to the maximum spell level you can cast
- Bonus spell slots also translated to MP
- MP from diferent sources are combined into a unique pool by magic type (Divine, Arcane, etc), but class Spell Lists and Spell DCs are managed separately
- Bonus INT points from equiped/held Magic items or temporal bonuses doesn't give you extra spells known (in the case of Wizard's Lv 1 starting spells or similar for other classes), only permanent increases does.
How does this work with prepared casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, et cetera)?
Do they just cast any spell they know spontaneously (e.g., any spell in a Wizard's spellbook, any spell on the list for the Cleric, Druid, or Shaman)?
Do they prepare spells in their slots, and then cast those spontaneously (e.g., the Wizard prepares spells from spellbook, and "knows" those spells for the day)?
-- Slots from high ability score, specialities, domains, et cetera: Also add to "today's known" for this?
Something I didn't think of (e.g., they gain a spells known list from somewhere)?

EDIT: hadn't seen the rules update. Dang it, now that left me confused too. trade spellcasting for 20 RFS and buy it back for 5 RFS?

Well, not that I care much for it, I am not using casting classes anyway.:smallbiggrin:
It's intended as a straight-up upgrade for Paladin, Ranger, and similar.

Zhentarim

2024-04-05, 12:13 PM

I'll post my bard/alchemist multiclass later today.

ProgressPaladin

2024-04-06, 08:39 AM

Can I take a feature and a feature that replaces it?

Dakrsidder

2024-04-06, 02:17 PM

I think I got all the mechanics right, so I’ll put it here (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2894910) as a placeholder

Ended up taking features from a total of 14 archetypes, which is a bit more than I anticipated

AvatarVecna

2024-04-06, 02:34 PM

Ditching drake after all just cuz kinda frustrated with it. Drake powers too rare; even if I were tristalt 20 stacking three progressions still couldn't have a fully upgraded drake. It's difficult to buff since most appropriate stuff specifies animals or AC specifically, and it's got a tempermental personality while normal AC just cooperates.

Here's planned level tables. Base race will probably be goblin.

Combat Specializations turns 11 bonus feats into: Blackpowder Training (4), Conscript Weapon Training (4), Mount (3)

Lvl
Slots
Features

1
5
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat, Combat Specializations, Sphere Specialization (?), Bonus Talent

2
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

3
2
Talent Progression, Well-Equipped

4
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

5
2
Talent Progression, Analytical Gaze

6
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

7
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Talent

8
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

9
2
Talent Progression, Guarding Gear

10
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

11
2
Talent Progression, Well-Equipped

12
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

13
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Talent

14
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

15
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Talent

16
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

17
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Talent

18
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

19
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Talent

20
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

Lvl
Slots
Features

1
5
Talent Progression, Combat Training, Maintenance, Drills, Bonus Feat

2
3
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight, Bonus Feat

3
3
Talent Progression, Reforge, Bonus Feat

4
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

5
3
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

6
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

7
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

8
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

9
3
Talent Progression, Rapid Maintenance, Rapid Drills

10
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

11
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

12
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

13
3
Talent Progression, Rapid Maintenance, Rapid Drills

14
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

15
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

16
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

17
3
Talent Progression, Rapid Maintenance, Rapid Drills

18
2
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

19
2
Talent Progression, Bonus Feat

20
3
Talent Progression, Smithing Insight

Base: Goblin (10 RP)

Attributes: Greater Paragon --> Advanced (+2 RP) (-2/+4/+0/+2/+2/+2)
Defenses: Moon-Touched Damage Reduction (+3 RP)

PC Sheet: Vogun Guttr (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895916)

AC Sheet: Akela (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895934)

Jack_Simth

2024-04-07, 06:43 PM

Huh. The Monstrous Mount feat for a Griffon Animal Companion is ALMOST as deadly as a "default" Eidolon at this level, and can be geared more easily: Armor makes them more durable. They'll fall off in a few levels when an Eidolon can pick up the Large evolution (or immediately, with something like bleed(claws) with four claws and Pounce), but still...

@Talivan: Do you have target numbers for optimization? A reference creature that should be "a tough but doable solo fight" for us or anything? There's going to be a very wide range of optimization levels without some guidelines, and that can lead to "wait, why am I here?" moments for players.

Greenflame133

2024-04-08, 07:07 AM

I have question regarding what is permeant bonus. Or rather are you overwriting the base behavior where bonus form items became permanent after 24 hours of wearing them.

Regardless I think I will try to make build based on Spell Cartridges and SoM. With classes quite likely gunslinger and sorcerer, replacing some stuff to get some SoM and Feats. This reminds me, are Legendary Talents from SoM aviable?

Benoojian

2024-04-10, 09:10 PM

This ruleset is wild and I definitely want to try to build something with it. My current thought is Summoner//Witch

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-11, 03:30 AM

Name: Andalus Methys
Race: Aasimar
Deity: Calistria
Classes: investigator / Blacksmith.

Andalus began his life as an atypical bar worker. He began working shortly after his parents died thanks to the contact of the priestess of the Calistra temple. Growing up, he realized that it was not so bad in physical aspects, but it was better in the mental field, for which he manages to learn the magic.
With the passage of time, he managed to make various skills of the premises patrons. This caught the attention of temple operations and extended a learning offer.
Andalus proved to be a somewhat eccentric child in his tastes and skills, being better in field work by sending modified homunculi to do the work of spies and explorers. Over time, I get fame among their coworkers as someone a little dark, but since the managers never reached more, they let him continue.
It is rare to see it without 'Jaina' a homunculus of medium size with a gypsy look and Nikka a fairy 'poppet' that helps him with his work.

Finishing sheet in a couple of days.

I have some questions.

Could it be possible that 'Gauntlet Shield' of the Equipment Sphere function as 'Associated Feat: Shield Gauntlet Style' to be able to take the other 2 as feats?

Jack_Simth

2024-04-11, 06:19 AM

Player
Character

AvatarVecna
Vogun Guttr (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895916) and AC Akela (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895934)

Dakrsidder
here (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2894910)

Jack_Simth
Adam (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896218#) and AC Gerald (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896320)

Benoojian
Max Moggie (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896644)

Arael666
Nizam (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XWtuQPF7UPtDY8ba9G7rDzri1kYvuZoTE21wd8Zt3JE/edit?usp=sharing)

Shiro_Nogard
Andalus Methys (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2894687) and Hera Cless (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2899648)

Yes, technically, I'm a noble. Really, though, I don't care. Despite getting my father's name, I'm well aware I'm not going to inherit anything. First off, while my father is human, there's no way I'm outliving my elvish mother, so really, she's the one who's going to be running everything when my father kicks it... which is probably why her family agreed to the marriage to cement the trade agreement, honestly: They lose their daughter for fifty or sixty years, and at the end, she's running a duchy on the other side of the border for centuries... and of course, as she'll be the one in charge, she'll be able to get a 'proper' elvish husband, and have pureblood children - one of which they'll of course name as the heir. Even if she somehow dies before my father, my chances of inheriting my father's holdings are basically nothing anyway: Despite getting his name, I'm the fourth son, and Dad's quite traditional: My eldest brother is going to take the duchy.

So I'm not going to get much... but that's okay. I had access to a lot of very practical training - which I took full advantage of - and I'm assigned one of the guards, Gerald, with whom I have quite the connection. Where is he? Oh, he's in the feathers, carrying our stuff. He doesn't have hands, so I help him with his armor, in turn, he carries everything I won't need quickly. And yes, technically he's a household servant, but really... what household? Bah! Nobility. Nah, if I want to get ahead in life, I'll have to arrange it myself.

Nah, I just thought that all would be fun, and explain the weirdness in the build I was using every time I went out to play. I mean, seriously, I'm a full caster, yes, but I'm also a dipfest for maximum defenses, and some flexibility that gets me basically any Oracle spell with one round's notice... and I can do metamagic feats, too. It's a fun build.

In real life, though? I'm a game programmer. No, I don't get to play at work. It's not as fun as it sounds, because it's the game designers that make the games, and the testers that play them. I'm one of the folks responsible for implementing features that the game designers then use in scripting... and there's WAY more oversight than you'd think. The game designers open a ticket for what they want us to add in (or the testers for what's broken), the boss assigns someone to it, we create a branch from our gitlab, work on it, do some simple testing, flag the boss when it's done, and he takes a look, tells us what we need to do better... rinse and repeat a few times, then it gets merged into the codebase.

...but how did I get HERE, come to life as my character?

Benoojian

2024-04-11, 10:08 AM

I have not built the character yet, I just spent a couple hours building and writing a class chassis for both sides

Summoner (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y18IAgjnxOk8QVD9R9YlsWu4aklctuLVC-mJVHcA-QE/edit?usp=sharing) drops both spellcasting and Eidolon to focus entirely on the summoning spell like abilities, heavily uses Celestial Commander 3rd party archetype

Witch (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yvCONo3iD_K0nY_guV9KtTMtr0_nlBs5rNT1O0j96jM/edit?usp=sharing) drops Patron and Patron spells to pick up various debuffing and charismatic abilities as well as keying off Charisma instead of Intelligence

Essentially the character is meant to have a personality so forceful that if he can't charm someone into doing something for him, he can charm the universe into creating someone that's willing to do it for him.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-13, 10:52 AM

Few have submitted sheets, and of those, most are not complete, but so far, we have:

A skillmonkey / librarian
A beatstick (and the nominal PC, a goblin... but seriously, it looks like you're "playing the monster" there)
A healbot recharging station (with a flying packmule)

Benoojian

2024-04-13, 04:34 PM

AvatarVecna

2024-04-13, 04:56 PM

A beatstick (and the nominal PC, a goblin... but seriously, it looks like you're "playing the monster" there)

"Nominal" PC is gunslinging damage machine. "Beatstick" is gonna be more of a buff platform via Warleader sphere, and is giving up multiattack for more martial talents. Attack bonus is high, but even a guaranteed 2d8+12 per round is hardly bank-breaking DPR at lvl 6, and I'd rather buff the party than make an extra attack that isn't even magic damage. I wanted an AC that isn't gonna get ganked in gestalt combat, and I've got that, so I'm happy.

EDIT: I've been holding off selecting talents until I see how the DM rules on legendary options, but seeing as the DM hasn't been on the forum at all for over a week, I'm not exactly feeling a lot of pressure to finish my sheet.

5ColouredWalker

2024-04-13, 08:56 PM

Ok, rereading things and with 3p available I'm interested.

50/50 I go a martial artist or gunslinger extraordinaire given the rules.

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]
[roll6]
[roll7]
[roll8]
[roll9]
[roll10]
[roll11]
[roll12]
[roll13]
[roll14]
[roll15]
[roll16]
[roll17]
[roll18]
[roll19]
[roll20]
[roll21]
[roll22]
[roll23]
[roll24]
[roll25]
[roll26]
[roll27]
[roll28]
[roll29]
[roll30]
[roll31]
[roll32]
[roll33]
[roll34]
[roll35]

Set 1 or 3. The set with 18 has some big penalties, 1 has better peaks, 3 has a great baseline... I am considering.

Dakrsidder

2024-04-13, 09:11 PM

A skillmonkey / librarian

Honestly, I didn’t realize that was a fairly accurate description until you mentioned it, but there do be the meager buffs and cc too. That said, I was contemplating stripping Weird Musician for its first performance, but giving everyone a scaling evolution pool might be a bit much, especially with all the minions

Benoojian

2024-04-13, 11:54 PM

Honestly, I didn’t realize that was a fairly accurate description until you mentioned it, but there do be the meager buffs and cc too. That said, I was contemplating stripping Weird Musician for its first performance, but giving everyone a scaling evolution pool might be a bit much, especially with all the minions

If you have space for it, it would be terrifyingly effective

Talivan

2024-04-14, 01:33 AM

Jack_Simth

2024-04-14, 08:09 AM

Hello Guys, how are you doing?!?!,

Sorry for suddenly Hide in plain sight, I got fired from my Job (Basically I became too expensive for the company to sustain and also they needed flesh blood, and I was an old dog by now...), also lost access to a PC (was using Job's Laptop to access internet).

I was arranging some life stuff in the past days, please giveme a little more time and I will get back to you, I'm not planning to stop this, by the contrary, I will have more time to spare in the near future!.

see you guys in a bit!That's rough. At least you're not hurt.

Honestly, I didn’t realize that was a fairly accurate description until you mentioned it, but there do be the meager buffs and cc too. That said, I was contemplating stripping Weird Musician for its first performance, but giving everyone a scaling evolution pool might be a bit much, especially with all the minions

Checking... ooh, that's a fun one. Floating Eidolon Evolutions? Those can be feats (which can in turn be spells known - also Talents with Spheres of Might in play; that's terrifyingly useful if we also get a Sorcerer or a Martial Adept in the party... which it looks like we might), skill boosts (at +8), extra attacks, stat boosts, movement modes... it's a pretty big list.

Witch 6//Summoner 6, with many substitutions.

Edited into the sheet tracking (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25994041&postcount=74)

"Nominal" PC is gunslinging damage machine. "Beatstick" is gonna be more of a buff platform via Warleader sphere, and is giving up multiattack for more martial talents. Attack bonus is high, but even a guaranteed 2d8+12 per round is hardly bank-breaking DPR at lvl 6, and I'd rather buff the party than make an extra attack that isn't even magic damage. I wanted an AC that isn't gonna get ganked in gestalt combat, and I've got that, so I'm happy.

EDIT: I've been holding off selecting talents until I see how the DM rules on legendary options, but seeing as the DM hasn't been on the forum at all for over a week, I'm not exactly feeling a lot of pressure to finish my sheet.

Ah. Sorry, I didn't get deeply into the builds, I was just taking a quick glance.

AvatarVecna

2024-04-14, 11:21 AM

Ah. Sorry, I didn't get deeply into the builds, I was just taking a quick glance.

Oh that wasn't me blaming you, sorry! No just a correction cuz like I know it looks bad on paper before talents get chosen lol. Build could swing so much depending on talent choices, and there's hundreds of options, so just clarifying what I'll be going for. Doggo is like Athletics/Warleader to be a mobile buff platform, goblin is going like Barrage/Equipment/Scout/Sniper for ranged DPR.

Dakrsidder

2024-04-14, 04:02 PM

I suppose I’ll add it in the meantime and see what happens, but yeah, the power + versatility being high is what concerns me

Jack_Simth

2024-04-14, 05:07 PM

Max Moggie (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896644), a cashier in his own world, he found that in this new world, in his new Catfolk body, that being kind and charismatic had literal magic powers, but so did the Evil Eye his grandmother warned him about. Will he succumb to the lure of easy power or will he refuse to let it change him?

Witch 6//Summoner 6, with many substitutions.

With that Charisma, you may want to look up the Feytouched Hexer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/witch-archetypes-flaming-crab-games/faytouched-hexer).

Benoojian

2024-04-14, 05:25 PM

With that Charisma, you may want to look up the Feytouched Hexer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/witch-archetypes-flaming-crab-games/faytouched-hexer).

Seducer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo-witch-archetypes/seducer-witch-archetype/) has the Charisma switch as a simple Class Feature, so I can take it without switching my spellcasting to Spontaneous.

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-15, 12:07 AM

AscarothD

2024-04-15, 01:21 AM

Try again
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

LOL since we can choose other people's rolls.
(4d6b3)[15]
(4d6b3)[17]
(4d6b3)[13]
(4d6b3)[17]
(4d6b3)[14]
(4d6b3)[18]

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-15, 03:26 AM

Try again

LOL since we can choose other people's rolls.

We can?

Think i missed it.

AscarothD

2024-04-15, 05:07 AM

Which means I could grab two 1st level at-will spell like abilities (or one at 2nd) for four points and get two bonus class skills for the "final" point. Handy.

At-Will spell-like abilities are limited to Monstrous power level. As in 20+ RP races.

We can?

Think i missed it.

Yeah :) Although this character creation build seems strange, I have to get a good break down. It almost seems like it's a better deal to find a class that has a lot more class features and then choose not to take abilities to free up RSF for bonus feats etc.

Yes, you can choose from other player's rolls

Aslo, the system doesn't make sense, unless you are using spheres for spellcasting, in place of a spell pool. Paladins normally do not get spellcasting at 1st otherwise. So where are you pulling the RSF From to suddenly gains pellcasting in your example? for 4 RSF at level 1, but Paladins only have 3 abilities at 1st. Again, unless you start pulling from Spheres/Path of War for maneuvers also. Suddenly you could say you're a Paladin with Sphere Casting and Maneuver training for 5 RSF.

I feel like everyone should have a flat RSF per level to draw from and spend accordingly. Since it's gestalt, You can technically get 6-8 RSF per level to play with.

See how the Freelancer class (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/miscellaneous-classes/freelancer/) plays out on the FFD20 site.

You get a set number of "job points" per level to pick class abilities, but you could technically double the amount as a gestalt build.

Jack_Simth

2024-04-15, 06:32 AM

At-Will spell-like abilities are limited to Monstrous power level. As in 20+ RP races.
...
Missed that. Well, that's annoying.

Still, most people aren't even close to done with their sheets, so I have a bit of time to revamp.

AscarothD

2024-04-15, 06:43 AM

...
Missed that. Well, that's annoying.

Still, most people aren't even close to done with their sheets, so I have a bit of time to revamp.

Yeah, that's where I am currently confused, how the GM is pulling extra "RFS" at early levels for class abilities that aren't available to level 1 paladins.

An example is I play in another game I am an Unchained Rogue - Eldritch Scoundrel, so I gain spellcasting, the archetype explains how I get the ability in trade for for base class abilities. It doesn't help that we don't have a set amount of RFS and I feel like I can go wild giving base classes extra features from base class pay 1 RFS to gain the benefit of an archetype at the same time. But how would I explain where that extra RFS came from.

Benoojian

2024-04-15, 08:26 AM

At-Will spell-like abilities are limited to Monstrous power level. As in 20+ RP races.

Yeah :) Although this character creation build seems strange, I have to get a good break down. It almost seems like it's a better deal to find a class that has a lot more class features and then choose not to take abilities to free up RSF for bonus feats etc.

Aslo, the system doesn't make sense, unless you are using spheres for spellcasting, in place of a spell pool. Paladins normally do not get spellcasting at 1st otherwise. So where are you pulling the RSF From to suddenly gains pellcasting in your example? for 4 RSF at level 1, but Paladins only have 3 abilities at 1st. Again, unless you start pulling from Spheres/Path of War for maneuvers also. Suddenly you could say you're a Paladin with Sphere Casting and Maneuver training for 5 RSF.

I feel like everyone should have a flat RSF per level to draw from and spend accordingly. Since it's gestalt, You can technically get 6-8 RSF per level to play with.

See how the Freelancer class (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/miscellaneous-classes/freelancer/) plays out on the FFD20 site.

You get a set number of "job points" per level to pick class abilities, but you could technically double the amount as a gestalt build.

From what I understood you can only pick up class features that the class can get from an archetype, so you can't just spend all your points on random bonus feats, only bonus feats the class gives somewhere (with the small exception of double granted feats).

Also Spellcasting is a special rule, it is worth 20 RFS, 1 per level, regardless of strength when you trade in. Then costs 20, 10, or 5 to buy back. This is a straight buff for Paladin and Ranger types. (the freelancer costs 165 JP vs 210 JP, hardly any difference despite the massive difference in power)

AscarothD

2024-04-15, 08:47 AM

From what I understood you can only pick up class features that the class can get from an archetype, so you can't just spend all your points on random bonus feats, only bonus feats the class gives somewhere (with the small exception of double granted feats).

Also Spellcasting is a special rule, it is worth 20 RFS, 1 per level, regardless of strength when you trade in. Then costs 20, 10, or 5 to buy back. This is a straight buff for Paladin and Ranger types. (the freelancer costs 165 JP vs 210 JP, hardly any difference despite the massive difference in power)

Yeah it's a little confusing, because he's got 3 archetypes that two of them normally cannot stack going on that uses up his 20 RFS.

Because yeah. A base paladin would only be considered a low-caster 5 RFS and nothing more. (without dipping into spheres/pow)

So technically Gestalt Paladin|Ranger will give the player up to 40 RFS for Magic Spheres, Maneuvers and Combat Talents.

I am only asking, because I want to understand the boundaries. Not actually intending to "break" the game by min maxing.

I do have a special request though, because in the past I applied for a Gestalt game on another site, but didn't get picked. It was Monster Class Progression || Paladin. Wonder if that could still be an option, since the GM did say 3rd party is allowed.

Astral Deva (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/monster-classes/astral-deva/) || Paladin Knight Disciple, and I had given up feats for Combat Talents, but I would probably go with RFS to be Adept at martial adept 3/4.

Benoojian

2024-04-15, 09:21 AM

Ok, So is the Spellcasting flat out free for classes that gain spellcasting? Paladin who can only cast up to 4th level spells starting at 4th, they get 20 RFS, and can choose to spend some of the RFS for other things like feats, if they choose not start spells at 1st - 3rd?

Was the GM's example a sphere caster? I noticed one of the Archetypes on the Spheres says they are a low caster, but can he choose to be a High Caster without any requirements?

No, there's only Spheres of Might, no Spheres of Power.

RSF is always based on base class not on any archetype. So the 1/2 progression spellcasting grants 20RSF, even if you choose NOT to buy it back at 4th level. this is the same amount for any "System" progression, ie magic, Psionics, Spheres of Might, Manuevers. So yes, partial progression classes get a big boost.

I don't think you could make a Paladin a full caster, because there isn't an archetype to do it, Not sure there's ways to change the progression speed outside of Spheres. One of the answers implies that you can always buy SoM progression even if your class doesn't normally get it but I'd like a clarification from DM on that

AscarothD

2024-04-15, 09:46 AM

No, there's only Spheres of Might, no Spheres of Power.

RSF is always based on base class not on any archetype. So the 1/2 progression spellcasting grants 20RSF, even if you choose NOT to buy it back at 4th level. this is the same amount for any "System" progression, ie magic, Psionics, Spheres of Might, Manuevers. So yes, partial progression classes get a big boost.

I don't think you could make a Paladin a full caster, because there isn't an archetype to do it, Not sure there's ways to change the progression speed outside of Spheres. One of the answers implies that you can always buy SoM progression even if your class doesn't normally get it but I'd like a clarification from DM on that

Again, why I am confused, because this was his breakdown.

For my custom Paladin I want him to have the 1/2 Spellcasting system (As Base Paladin, 5 RSF), Proficient Practicioner (As Dirt Spattered Angel, 5 RSF) and 3/4 Martial Maneuvers (As Knight Disciple, 10 RSF) for a total of 20 RSF.

Martial Maneuver RFS cost can be payed as follows: 1 RSF at levels 1st or 2nd, 1 RSF at levels 3rd or 4th, 1 RSF at levels 5th or 6th, and so on until payed all 10 RSF cost
Spellcasting RFS costs can be payed as follows: 1 RSF at leves 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th, 1 RSF at leves 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th, and so on until payed all 5 RSF cost, same for Proficient Practiotioner

So in essence he's getting 2 additional boons for free literally.

That's saying a Paladin || Ranger can get double the bonus for doing the same for Ranger also. 40 RFS?

As stated, I am just trying to get an understanding on why it's so generous for low spellcasters 4th/6th level vs a high level 9th spellcaster. I see the tradeoff, and it is a nice boon., but as above. Paladin Ranger would get 40 RFS to play with instead if someone chose to go that route.

That was also why I had assumed he was using spheres of power, because he paid for his paladin spellcasting at 1st character level.

Finally GM Mentioned you cannot save slots/RFS for higher levels. Yet it costs 2 RFS to get a class ability from a prestige class for example. So like if I want Hide in Plain Sight. I would be Ranger 6, but they only get 1 RFS ability plus spellcasting. Since he's going to be a low spellcaster, he has the extra RFS he can apply to the HiPS at that level. But again, no holding RFS... So if he doesn't use the RFS at character creation, I feel like it's gone.
Although as the game title states. It is Gestalt, so I guess you could pull 1 RFS from the other class as well to get your 2.

5. No, this will prevent someone holding all RSF to buy only high level features in later class levels. You should buy features or buy feats.

Finally.. If a Paladin or Ranger decided to go Spell-Less, would they pretty much have 1 additional FSP per class level to account for the Spellcasting he chose to give up?

Too bad, looks like Fighter gets the short end of the stick.

Arael666

2024-04-15, 05:18 PM

I was reading the big 16 again and noticed that it seems to be intentional that paladins (and similar classes) get 20 total RFS for it's casting and only spend 5 RSF to get it back, though I would still like clarification on this matter.

- All systems like Spellcasting, Martial maneuvers, Spheres, etc are transformed to 1 RFS per level (For a total of 20 RFS at lv 20)
- All systems with Full proression costs 20 RSF (Like Wizard spellcasting), systems with 3/4 progression costs 10 RSF (like Bard's Spellcasting) and 1/2 progresion systems costs 5 RSF (like Paladin's Spellcasting)

In the meantime, here's a bunch of questions:

1 - Would the stalker's Combat Insight (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/Stalker/#TOC-Combat-Insight-Su-) be a staged or single feature?
2 - Would the stalker's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/stalker/) dodge bonus be part of it's chassis or would it grant Regular Feature Slots? if grants, is it a staged or single feature?
3 - Would the stalker's Dual Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/Stalker/#TOC-Dual-Strike-Ex-) be a staged or single feature?
4 - Would I be able to select Wilder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder/) as one of the classes and simply not buy the Psychic Enervation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder/#TOC-Psychic-Enervation-Ex-)?
5 - Would the wilder's Wild Surge, Elude Attack and Surging Ephoria be staged or single features?
6 - Can we buy a RFS with a feat?
7 - Would an Aurora Soul's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/mystic/archetypes/aurora-soul/) Mystic Combat be a staged or single feature?
8 - Some prestige classes grant class features that give benefits based on the prestige class level, like the awakened blade's Situational Awareness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade/#TOC-Situational-Awareness-Su-), how should we deal with these features? I supose we're not using character level, since that would be quite a big diference in most cases.
9 - Do we need to spend RFS to buy features that do not replace other features? For example, the Psychic Warrior Psionic Armor from the Meditant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/meditant) Archetype replaces all armor and shield proficiencies normally gained by a psychic warrior.

Arael666

2024-04-16, 02:57 PM

Rolling for stats:

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

[roll6]
[roll7]
[roll8]
[roll9]
[roll10]
[roll11]

[roll12]
[roll13]
[roll14]
[roll15]
[roll16]
[roll17]

[roll18]
[roll19]
[roll20]
[roll21]
[roll22]
[roll23]

[roll24]
[roll25]
[roll26]
[roll27]
[roll28]
[roll29]

[roll30]
[roll31]
[roll32]
[roll33]
[roll34]
[roll35]

Taking set two I believe

AscarothD

2024-04-16, 04:39 PM

Rolling for stats

Taking set two I believe

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
- Everyone rolls a set of 4d6b3 six times, then you can pick the set you like the most from all rolled sets.

What GM Meant is you only roll your stats once. But if you don't like your rolls, you can choose a set rolled by another applicant. So you can use your first set of rolls, or scroll through the posts and pick someone else's first set of rolls.

TSorry for the confusion, its 4d6b3 x6 only

Yes, you can choose from other player's rolls

Arael666

2024-04-16, 05:50 PM

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
- Everyone rolls a set of 4d6b3 six times, then you can pick the set you like the most from all rolled sets.

What GM Meant is you only roll your stats once. But if you don't like your rolls, you can choose a set rolled by another applicant. So you can use your first set of rolls, or scroll through the posts and pick someone else's first set of rolls.

I completely missed that. So multiple people van use any set that was rolled?

AvatarVecna

2024-04-16, 06:11 PM

I completely missed that. So multiple people van use any set that was rolled?

Yeah. And I'll even save you some time: you wanna use Illven's rolls. Nobody has rolled better than that, and nobody is going to.

ProgressPaladin

2024-04-16, 09:20 PM

Sorry I haven’t responded, I’ve been cycling through character concepts. I;ve decided on an Investigator/Occultist. I will be going for a skill monkey/librarian with some combat potential.

Zhentarim

2024-04-17, 03:50 PM

sorry about the delay, i was fired a few months ago and am trying to get the next job

Shiro_Nogard

2024-04-22, 02:22 AM

Finishing the leaves. I just have to make sure the math is correct.
Here we go with: Andalus Methys. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2894687) Tiefling (Questioner & Blacksmith) and his homunculus Hera Cless (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2899648)*Yes, I know. :P*

A fixer and his bodyguard/assistant. He is the expert in entering, investigating and finding worshipers of the underworld, while also safely decomposing its artifacts. He has a sweet tooth and likes to always be groomed; Something that would not be expected from a person who dedicates himself to "dirty work."

She has a tendency to break her weapons, which is why she often fights using crossbow bolts. chain and stiletto shoes. She has acquired certain tendencies from her creator. He has begun to take up cartomancy as a hobby and entertains himself by talking and chatting with people in the taverns they frequent. He often ends up helping in investigations.

Arael666

2024-04-22, 11:20 AM

Jack_Simth

2024-04-23, 06:50 AM

Well, Nizam (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XWtuQPF7UPtDY8ba9G7rDzri1kYvuZoTE21wd8Zt3JE/edit?usp=sharing) is mostly ready, assuming I didn't make any mistakes interpreting the rules. Human stalker/psion

He is a capable melee combatant (he doesn't use any sort of ranged attacks) and also a good scout, tracker and trapfinder.

His psionic powers are almost entirely used to enable his combat abilities, with a few dedicated to improve his scouting abilities

Added to chart.

Finishing the leaves. I just have to make sure the math is correct.
Here we go with: Andalus Methys. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2894687) Tiefling (Questioner & Blacksmith) and his homunculus Hera Cless (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2899648)*Yes, I know. :P*

A fixer and his bodyguard/assistant. He is the expert in entering, investigating and finding worshipers of the underworld, while also safely decomposing its artifacts. He has a sweet tooth and likes to always be groomed; Something that would not be expected from a person who dedicates himself to "dirty work."

She has a tendency to break her weapons, which is why she often fights using crossbow bolts. chain and stiletto shoes. She has acquired certain tendencies from her creator. He has begun to take up cartomancy as a hobby and entertains himself by talking and chatting with people in the taverns they frequent. He often ends up helping in investigations.

Added to chart.

Player
Character

AvatarVecna
Vogun Guttr (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895916) and AC Akela (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2895934)

Dakrsidder
here (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2894910)

Jack_Simth
Adam (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896218#) and AC Gerald (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896320)

Benoojian
Max Moggie (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2896644)

Arael666
Nizam (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XWtuQPF7UPtDY8ba9G7rDzri1kYvuZoTE21wd8Zt3JE/edit?usp=sharing)

Shiro_Nogard
Andalus Methys (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2894687) and Hera Cless (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2899648)

So we have...
A ranged striker with a buff bot.
A skillmonkey//Librarian
A divine flex caster and a flying baggage handler
An arcane summoner
A melee specialist skillmonkey
A librarian crafter combatant plus assistent

...

Now all we need is for the DM to come back....