How much would cost to pay a team to capture a red dragon wyrmling?

[Samael Morgenst]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

[Inevitability]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.


The price for an egg begins at 10,000 gp and goes up depending on the buyer. There is no “open market” for dragon eggs. The training cost is widely variable, but never less than 5,000 gp. Dragons can never be domesticated.

According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think upwards of 20000 GP for a wyrmling makes sense, given all this. Spellcasting services to get Darsson's Firey Furnace + 10th-level Permanency comes out to 5560 GP already, and seems like a good sort of benchmark for the cost to magically sustain the sort of environment for multiple years. Add some markup, the cost of shelter, the cost of guarding your egg throughout all that time, and I think that doubling the price just so you don't have to hatch the egg yourself is more than reasonable.

[pabelfly]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting has the Dragon Rider PrC. You can pay a dragon to join you for the cost of 1,000 gold per HD.

Draconomicon also has recruitment rules for dragons p138. 500 gold per HD per year.

These are not dragon eggs, or tame dragons, but these might suit your purposes if you want to be using a Dragon as a character, or just want a rough guide as to what a dragon might be costed at when adding them to the party.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.



According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think 15000-20000 GP for a wyrmling wouldn't be unreasonable, given all this.

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier. There would be less.demand for an already born wyrmling. It also requires stealing it from an adult dragon's lair‚ upping the difficulty several times compared to capturing a wyrmling in its first years‚ especially a chromatic one‚ since chromatic parents care less about their young compared to metallic. I'd say 15k would be reasonable for a metallic wyrmling (up to 20k for a gold wyrmling)‚ but that a chromatic one would be more in the 7-12k range.

[hamishspence]

Some chromatic dragons, usually younger ones, when they start laying, don't look after the egg in their lair but just leave it to hatch by itself and take care of itself when it hatches.


Finding such an egg before it hatches would provide whatever advantages can be gained from having the wyrmling from the moment of the hatching point, as well as the advantage of not having to venture into the lair of an adult dragon.

[Samael Morgenst]

There are many profitable uses for dragon breeding, although they're quite moral bankrup.
With the one-time investment for a Ring of Regeneration, a single dragon can slowly provide the raw materials to equip a whole army with dragoncraft weapons and armors. Not to mention industrial-scale dragonegg hatching.

---

By the way, from the Draconomicon:


A single hide can yield more than one set of armor if the armor is sized for creatures smaller than the size given on the table. For each size category of the finished armor smaller than the size given on the table, double the number of sets of armor can be made. For instance, when making banded mail from the hide of a Colossal dragon, an armorsmith can make one suit of Huge armor (as the table indicates), two suits of Large armor, four suits of Medium armor, eight suits of Small armor, sixteen suits of Tiny armor, thirty-two suits of Diminutive armor, or sixty-four suits of Fine armor

Could it work backwards too?

Could a human-sized (medium) full-plate be crafted from 2 gargantuan / 4 huge / 8 large / 16 medium / 32 small / 64 tiny dragons? (for example, 64 white dragon wyrmlings)

[atemu1234]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.



According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think upwards of 20000 GP for a wyrmling makes sense, given all this. Spellcasting services to get Darsson's Firey Furnace + 10th-level Permanency comes out to 5560 GP already, and seems like a good sort of benchmark for the cost to magically sustain the sort of environment for multiple years. Add some markup, the cost of shelter, the cost of guarding your egg throughout all that time, and I think that doubling the price just so you don't have to hatch the egg yourself is more than reasonable.

This is the most sensible option; though really, if the patrons are players, they should be the ones hunting down the dragon egg themselves. Hiring a team is just a recipe for A) huge life insurance costs and B) a pissed-off mama dragon, and see A).

[AMFV]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

I suspect the cost issue is not for dealing with the Wyrmling itself but rather it's parent if they happen to be around. While Red Dragons often are not attentive parents they still would probably not approve of their offspring being held in captivity. So that's likely to significantly increase the cost.


Edit:

Some chromatic dragons, usually younger ones, when they start laying, don't look after the egg in their lair but just leave it to hatch by itself and take care of itself when it hatches.


Finding such an egg before it hatches would provide whatever advantages can be gained from having the wyrmling from the moment of the hatching point, as well as the advantage of not having to venture into the lair of an adult dragon.


The thing is that even assuming that's true, you still have to deal with the fact that greater draconic community is definitely going to become aware of the fact that you are dealing in dragons.

[Crake]

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier.

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:


RULES: REARING A DRAGON
Being an adoptive parent to a dragon is no easy task. Even good-aligned dragons have a sense of superiority and an innate yearning for freedom. Most dragons instinctively defer to older dragons of the same kind, but they tend to regard other creatures with some disdain.

Older and wiser dragons eventually learn to respect non-dragons for their abilities and accomplishments, but a newly hatched wyrmling tends to regard a nondragon foster parent as a captor—or at best as a well-meaning fool. Still, it is possible for a nondragon character to forge a bond with a newly hatched wyrmling. Accomplishing this requires the use of Diplomacy or Intimidate as well as (eventually) the Handle Animal skill. A character seeking to rear a newly hatched wyrmling must begin with a Diplomacy or Intimidate check to persuade the dragon to accept the character’s guidance; 5 or more ranks of Knowledge (arcana) gives the character a +2 bonus on the check. The character’s Diplomacy or Intimidate check is opposed by a Sense Motive check by the dragon. The dragon has a +15 racial bonus on its check. Certain other conditions, such as those mentioned on the table below, can further modify the wyrmling’s Sense Motive check.

Condition Modifier
Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5
Each component of dragon’s alignment in common with the character’s¹: –5

¹Alignment components are chaos, evil, good, law, and neutral.

This opposed check is rolled secretly by the DM, so that the player of the character does not immediately know the result of the check. If the wyrmling wins the opposed check, it regards the character as a captor and attempts to gain its freedom any way it can. (Most dragons, even newly hatched wyrmlings, are smart enough to forego an immediate attack on a more powerful being, and will wait for the right opportunity to escape.) No attempt by this character to rear this dragon can succeed. This opposed check cannot be retried.

If the character wins this opposed check, he or she can attempt to rear the dragon. The process takes 5 years, but once the rearing period begins, the character need only devote one day a week to the dragon’s training. Throughout the rearing period, however, the dragon must be fed and housed at a cost of 10 gp per day.

When the rearing period has run its course, the character attempts a Handle Animal check (DC 20 + the dragon’s Hit Dice at the very young stage). Only one check is made, rolled secretly by the DM. A failed check cannot be retried. If the character’s Handle Animal check fails, the dragon is not successfully reared and seeks to leave, as noted above. If the check succeeds, the character can begin to train the dragon to perform tasks (the most common of which is serving as a mount; see Dragons as Mounts, page 136, and the Handle Animal skill, page 74 of the Player’s Handbook).

For many characters, the ultimate purpose of rearing a dragon is to make it available to the character as a cohort. To rear a dragon for this reason, the character must have taken the Leadership feat (see page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) by the time the rearing period expires, and must have a sufficiently high Leadership score to attract the dragon as a cohort at that time (using the dragon’s Hit Dice at the very young stage as its cohort level). Also, the dragon’s alignment must not be opposed to the character’s alignment on either the law-vs.-chaos or good-vs.-evil axis (for example, a lawful good character cannot attempt to rear a chaotic evil wyrmling). For more information, see Dragons as Cohorts, page 138.

[AMFV]

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:

It's important to note that the people paying you to capture the Wyrmling may themselves be incorrect about that.

[rel]

A quest giver offers 1k to 2k GP per PC.

And the PC's can likely make a little more looting the dragons hoard, and get a higher payout by accepting payment in something less liquid than diamond dust and platinum coins.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:

Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5

I mean‚ you gave the answer yourself. Maybe imprinting wasn't the right word‚ but being the first person a wyrmling sees definitely helps befriending it later.

[Unoriginal]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

The book Lords of Madness gives this guideline for the price of a slave (with a CR of 1 minimum):

CR²x100 gp

So assuming the typical slavers' price estimations are being used, CR 4 Wyrmling would be 1600 and a CR 5 would be 2500.

[Crake]

Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5

I mean‚ you gave the answer yourself. Maybe imprinting wasn't the right word‚ but being the first person a wyrmling sees definitely helps befriending it later.

It does help, yeah; imprinting implies an almost instant, familial trust and bond, which is definitely not descriptive of the relationship they have with any non-dragon rearers.

[AMFV]

It does help, yeah; imprinting implies an almost instant, familial trust and bond, which is definitely not descriptive of the relationship they have with any non-dragon rearers.

It's also important to note that they're paying you to retrieve the dragon because they believe it will work. You don't like lose the money if they get eaten later.

[Samael Morgenst]

The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

[Bohandas]

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier.

I don't think chaotic evil dragons have the right kind of lifecycle for that to be a thing

[AMFV]

The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

That's likely to attract negative attention from the entire Draconic community. So probably the cost would bump significantly.

[Samael Morgenst]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

[Inevitability]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

White dragons specifically are the weird cousin of dragonkind, though. Weaker than any other, among the most antisocial, textually mostly interested in being big and scary and eating a whale every other week. Not enough power to command respect from other dragons, not enough cohesion to command it from each other. So what if those overgrown wyverns get themselves captured by giants? They're already at odds with the giants, but there's no reason to prioritize freeing their dragon pets.

On the other hand... if someone starts abducting and breeding red dragons, other dragons are sure to take notice. Whatever you want red dragons for is presumably something you can use other kinds for, and given their power, "If they can do it to the reds they can do it to us" is going to be the first thing that comes to mind for many. Even a silver or gold dragon would feel a pang of self-interested worry (not to mention moral disapproval, depending on what you're using that dragon for), and have reasons to stop you. Especially if you're not a giant, just a mortal wizard, and thus decidedly more bite-sized.

...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

[AMFV]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account. If you're the kind of person that needs to hire somebody to do this you're probably not that powerful. Also White Dragons are as pointed out, kind of not the same as others. Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them. Once you start wantonly murdering dragonkind, especially baby dragonkind that's very likely to get you some pretty negative attention.


White dragons specifically are the weird cousin of dragonkind, though. Weaker than any other, among the most antisocial, textually mostly interested in being big and scary and eating a whale every other week. Not enough power to command respect from other dragons, not enough cohesion to command it from each other. So what if those overgrown wyverns get themselves captured by giants? They're already at odds with the giants, but there's no reason to prioritize freeing their dragon pets.

Also White Dragons are really isolated. And therefore this practice may not be widely known. It's not like the Frost Giants are posting an advert in Adventurer's Monthly, which is likely to get a lot of attention. This however is asking around to hire somebody, that is much more likely to attract attention.



On the other hand... if someone starts abducting and breeding red dragons, other dragons are sure to take notice. Whatever you want red dragons for is presumably something you can use other kinds for, and given their power, "If they can do it to the reds they can do it to us" is going to be the first thing that comes to mind for many. Even a silver or gold dragon would feel a pang of self-interested worry (not to mention moral disapproval, depending on what you're using that dragon for), and have reasons to stop you. Especially if you're not a giant, just a mortal wizard, and thus decidedly more bite-sized.

...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

Or even just have the realistic consequences in play! Have the NPCs hiring the PCs and the PCs get hunted by dragons, have to explain themselves! That to me is a great option. Have the PCs buying dragons and trying to rear them suffer consequences from Dragonkind. That's reasonable and expectable consequence for that and that takes care of the story for the next few months of sessions. Or even longer since Dragons scale really well as baddies.

[hamishspence]

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account. If you're the kind of person that needs to hire somebody to do this you're probably not that powerful. Also White Dragons are as pointed out, kind of not the same as others. Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them. Once you start wantonly murdering dragonkind, especially baby dragonkind that's very likely to get you some pretty negative attention.


Yup - in the Prince of Lies Forgotten Realms novel, a baby white dragon that had been butchered for its organs, got animated as an undead and sent back home, and the resulting attack by an army of white dragons (among other monsters) devastated the city of Zhentil Keep.


So, even white dragons, with enough provocation, will band together to attack those who harm their offspring sufficiently.

[AMFV]

Yup - in the Prince of Lies Forgotten Realms novel, a baby white dragon that had been butchered for its organs, got animated as an undead and sent back home, and the resulting attack by an army of white dragons (among other monsters) devastated the city of Zhentil Keep.


So, even white dragons, with enough provocation, will band together to attack those who harm their offspring sufficiently.

That's okay I'm sure a bunch of clones of the boss survived.

[Samael Morgenst]

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account.

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.


...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

Well... no, I guess it can be done with whites too, as long they are True Dragons.



Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them.

From Monster Manual 1:


White dragons’ natural enemies are frost giants, who kill the
dragons for food and armor and capture them to use as guards.

[AMFV]

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.

You know that they get class levels too, right? Like the ones in the MM are generic mooks. Like even in adventure modules you have suboptimized ones with class levels.




Well... no, I guess it can be done with whites too, as long they are True Dragons.

I think you'd still have a lot of problems.




From Monster Manual 1:

That doesn't say anything about infants. Intelligent creatures tend to regard infanticide as considerably worse. And Dragons are intelligent creatures. And even then you have as presented lore examples of White Dragons taking revenge and they're the most chaotic least organized of the bunch.

[Unoriginal]

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.

If a single decently optimized caster needs to be lvl 7 or more to easily handle your basic mook, in 3.5, you're a pretty frighteningly powerful faction.

Most of the world is far less powerful than "easily beaten by a single decently optimized 7th level spellcaster".

[Inevitability]

In any world where level 7 human casters are optimized enough to beat mid-level monsters solo, so are the giant casters. The monster manual explicitly spells out that frost giant leaders tend to be barbarians, fighters, clerics, or sorcerers, and more broadly that 'many groups of frost giants include clerics' (note the plural). You can't just vaguely gesture at the tremendous power of spells here, not when your enemies have the exact same spells.

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

[AMFV]

In any world where level 7 human casters are optimized enough to beat mid-level monsters solo, so are the giant casters. The monster manual explicitly spells out that frost giant leaders tend to be barbarians, fighters, clerics, or sorcerers, and more broadly that 'many groups of frost giants include clerics' (note the plural). You can't just vaguely gesture at the tremendous power of spells here, not when your enemies have the exact same spells.

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

Presumably he uses his NPC gear to buy a Wisdom boosting item.

[Inevitability]

Presumably he uses his NPC gear to buy a Wisdom boosting item.

He comes with NPC gear - apparently +2 fullplate was considered more important than that periapt.

[AMFV]

He comes with NPC gear - apparently +2 fullplate was considered more important than that periapt.

You can't ever look at WotC statblocks, it's like gazing into the abyss... Fortunately you can like give him actual good stuff. Just make all his class levels nonassociated! I can't see any problem with that!

[Unoriginal]

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

Most of the writers who worked on 3.X books never got the hang on how to make a decent 3.X character, honestly.

Not to mention how they never really got what made a 3.X character powerful, either.

[Bohandas]

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?
Not only that but he also doesn't have any metamagic feats which would at least allow him to at least get a greater effect when casting low level spells in high level slots

[Samael Morgenst]

You know that they get class levels too, right?

This is their organization, according to Monster Manual 1:

Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% Solitary or with tribe
noncombatants plus 1 adept or cleric of
1st or 2nd level), hunting/raiding party (6–9
plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 adept or
sorcerer of 3rd–5th level plus 2–4 winter wolves
and 2–3 ogres), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept,
cleric, or sorcerer of 6th or 7th level plus
12–30 winter wolves, 12–22 ogres,
and 1–2 young white dragons)

---

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

[Inevitability]

Not only that but he also doesn't have any metamagic feats which would at least allow him to at least get a greater effect when casting low level spells in high level slots

He doesn't even have lower-level spells in his higher-level slots, is the thing. It's as if the top half of the casting progression was just cut away.

[hamishspence]

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

The point is that it's possible to outrage even white dragons, the dimmest and among the least sociable, with a "crime against dragonkind" enough for them to act as a group.

The Orbs of Dragonkind are another example of the sort of thing that will anger multiple dragons at a time:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#theOrbsofDragonkind

The bearer of one of these Orbs earns the enmity forever of all dragonkind for profiting by the enslavement of one of their kin, even if she later loses the item.

[Crake]

The point is that it's possible to outrage even white dragons, the dimmest

Worth noting that "dimmest" is also relative. An adult dragon has the same average intelligence as a human, and even literal newborn, fresh-out-the-egg hatchlings are about as intelligent as a slightly dummber than normal orc.

The main part is the "least sociable" part, which is hampers their ability to work together, not their intelligence.

[AMFV]

This is their organization, according to Monster Manual 1:

Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% Solitary or with tribe
noncombatants plus 1 adept or cleric of
1st or 2nd level), hunting/raiding party (6–9
plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 adept or
sorcerer of 3rd–5th level plus 2–4 winter wolves
and 2–3 ogres), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept,
cleric, or sorcerer of 6th or 7th level plus
12–30 winter wolves, 12–22 ogres,
and 1–2 young white dragons)

---

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

Organizations from MM are not at all reliable. And shouldn't be taken as anything beyond like super rough recommendations.

[Crake]

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

You know a lot of spells have pretty mundane solutions. For example, did you know a sack of flour can be used to reduce invisibility to just 20% concealment? You know what can function very much the same as a sack of flour? A giant handful of snow. Guess what is super abundant in frost giant environments?

Also, snow tends to leave super deep footprints that make it incredibly obvious where you are while invisible.

[AMFV]

You know a lot of spells have pretty mundane solutions. For example, did you know a sack of flour can be used to reduce invisibility to just 20% concealment? You know what can function very much the same as a sack of flour? A giant handful of snow. Guess what is super abundant in frost giant environments?

Also, snow tends to leave super deep footprints that make it incredibly obvious where you are while invisible.

Pit Traps can also work a trick if you have some way to block teleports at the bottom. Creatures with Scent. Frost Giants that take Martial Strike and Martial Stance to nab Scent.

[Samael Morgenst]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

[AMFV]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

Adult Frost Giants are indeed Mooks. They start with their RHD, that's how RHD works. According to the rules they don't advance by RHD at all. Also it's not clear at all if NPCs advance by leveling up in general.

Edit: Also you commenting that they are really scary and big doesn't actually help your original point which is "Frost Giants get away with Dragonnapping without consequence" which is actually not backed in the rules. That kind of works against you.

Are you the DM in this scenario?

[rel]

A quest giver offers 1k to 2k GP per PC.

And the PC's can likely make a little more looting the dragons hoard, and get a higher payout by accepting payment in something less liquid than diamond dust and platinum coins.


The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

If the PC party shows a consistent habit of balking at morally dubious quests, but your NPC judges them to be mercenary enough to accept the quest anyway if the pay is good then the quest giver *might* offer 1.5X to 2X the normal rate.

NPC's with high bluff are likely to try and spin a sympathetic story if the PC's seem moralistic and lacking in sense motive (e.g. The dragon needs to answer for some crime, bring them in as a prisoner; the dragon keeps burning down villages, we're going to relocate it to somewhere with less people; the dragon has vital information and needs to be questioned; etc)

NPC's with high diplomacy are likely to try and frame their actions in a sympathetic light (the dragons will live better lives in my care than they ever would in the wild; dragons are compelled to do evil, keeping them imprisoned where they can do no harm makes the world a better place; dragons aren't really people, they're savage beasts, it's no worse than the quest you took to exterminate the orc horde last month; etc)

Retribution against the PC's is unlikely. Everyone knows they only did the quest for coin and know or care little about the particulars.
Also making an example of a band of nameless murder hobos, (assuming you can even find them) isn't going to make it less likely that other adventuring parties accept such quests in the future, and might be bad for the health of whoever you sent after them; They aren't dubbed murder hobos for nothing.

If anything, people taking exception to the quest givers' dragon breeding operation are likely to try and hire the PC's to shut it down. After all, the PC's are demonstrably competent and have experience with the quest giver specifically.

[Unoriginal]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

You're the one arguing that they're easily defeated by a lvl 7 character.

You can't argue that they're weak and that they're strong at the same time.

[Samael Morgenst]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.


You're the one arguing that they're easily defeated by a lvl 7 character.

More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

[Unoriginal]

Although I do have to point out "mook" isn't by itself a measure of power.

If a criminal organization in a superhero RPG has an army of faceless, disposable minions, they're the mooks. No matter if they're actually equivalent to a low-tier superhero in an individual fistfight or if they'd get defeated by a civilian with a baseball bat.

For the Frost Giants, even the grunt is a force to be reckoned with. Which is also why the dragons didn't kill them all.

[AMFV]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.



More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

An ubercharger at that level is doing more than enough damage to 1 ROUND that sucker, bud.

Edit: Are you seriously comparing even partially optimized PC builds to anything as written in the monster manual. EVERYTHING is incredibly weak by that standard.

[Samael Morgenst]

Well, obviously I'm not taking into account Pun-pun builds.

[AMFV]

Well, obviously I'm not taking into account Pun-pun builds.

We're talking mid range optimization. No real cheese. Doing 150+ damage at level 7 is pretty trivial for a charge build character. Like we're not into TO stuff like d2 Crusaders or whatever.

[Beni-Kujaku]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.

More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

Then what is your initial point? The point that was made a few dozen posts ago was "In lore, White dragons do not recklessly attack frost giants because that would be extremely dangerous and the white dragons would suffer heavy losses, which they wouldn't if they instead attacked a bunch of wyrmling-kidnapping mortals, so there is a good chance they would try attacking if there was word of said mortals kidnapping said wyrmlings."
You replied with, in essence "Frost giants aren't that scary, a PC caster with 4th level spells should be able to slaughter them, even though they could body much more powerful martials". Are we okay until now?
Even if we assume that's true (still a stretch, would you say that a party of 10 level 9 martial characters would be completely helpless should a single level 7 caster come along?), have you read a white dragon's statblock lately? Because "caster with 4th level spells" does not apply to them until they are Ancient. So for the vast majority of white dragons, yes, frost giants are scary. And for that same majority humans are much less scary (if only because the frost breath would affect them). So white dragons are much more likely, for the same offense, to attack a group of humans than they are to attack a group of frost giants.

[Crake]

We're talking mid range optimization. No real cheese. Doing 150+ damage at level 7 is pretty trivial for a charge build character. Like we're not into TO stuff like d2 Crusaders or whatever.

Leap attack, shock trooper and a +1 valorous greatsword with 20 strength is still only averaging 96 damage on a charge, and considering it has +15 to hit while charging vs a frost giant's 21 unbuffed AC, and not taking into account the fact that the snowy ground you'd expect in a frost giant's environment that would pretty much make charging not even viable means that this is largely not true.

Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.


They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.



More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

[Samael Morgenst]

Then what is your initial point?

My initial point is that capturing white dragon youngling and breeding them to obtain weapon/armor / elixir materials, if done with discrection, is not something likely to elicit catastrophic retribution.


Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

As a DM I would not even take them into consideration, but it's a matter of opinions.



Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.

I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

[AMFV]

Leap attack, shock trooper and a +1 valorous greatsword with 20 strength is still only averaging 96 damage on a charge, and considering it has +15 to hit while charging vs a frost giant's 21 unbuffed AC, and not taking into account the fact that the snowy ground you'd expect in a frost giant's environment that would pretty much make charging not even viable means that this is largely not true.

Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.

20 Strength is really low for an optimized level 7 Ubercharger. Like crazy low. That's 16 before they rage. (And they have Rage since they have pounce). Like even if you're not assuming that they can afford a strength boosting item (which they can) that's bonkers low.

Yes, but you could also optimize the Giants in ways that would be a problem for the level 7 spellcaster trying to sneak past them. I agree that the giant mooks aren't particularly optimized. That's true of any monster in the monster manual. I'm confused why you're attacking me (and doing so incorrectly with a 16 Strength Ubercharger) when we're literally arguing the same point. That Frost Giant low level mooks are pretty scary, and that optimized characters can probably deal with appropriately CR'ed monsters.

Also you have leap attack. You're jumping anyways.



Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

Yep. There are plenty of options.


My initial point is that capturing white dragon youngling and breeding them to obtain weapon/armor / elixir materials, if done with discrection, is not something likely to elicit catastrophic retribution.

Discretion is expensive. How are you advertising this? What discrete sources are you using to advertise this thing? Without attracting attention. How much are you paying your fixers? How much are you paying your adventurers to be discrete?



I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

That's not "homebrew" it's literally described in the rules. Like in the MM you can read all the rules on how you can swap monster feats. None of that is "homebrew"

[Crake]

I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

Customizing monsters and NPCs isn't homebrew. Homebrew is making NEW content (classes, races, mosnters, items), not rearranging existing content.

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.


20 Strength is really low for an optimized level 7 Ubercharger. Like crazy low. That's 16 before they rage. (And they have Rage since they have pounce). Like even if you're not assuming that they can afford a strength boosting item (which they can) that's bonkers low.

That was before rage, because when you're only able to rage 1-2 times per day, you're not gonna be raging literally every combat.

Even then, raging only adds +2 to hit and +3 damage.


Also you have leap attack. You're jumping anyways.

Right, but you need to a running start to your charge unless you can make the full distance with the x2 dc penalty for lacking one, and if the terrain there is difficult, you can't even start your charge.

[AMFV]

Customizing monsters and NPCs isn't homebrew. Homebrew is making NEW content (classes, races, mosnters, items), not rearranging existing content.

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.

Hear! Hear!

If as a DM you give every single monster Martial Study and one unique ability, you'll have made the game way better and that's just scratching the surface. I do find that letting the Ubercharger do their one trick is usually okay though. Cause they have like one trick, let them do their trick. Not like build everything around them, but if they get to obliterate an enemy every combat it goes well, and that doesn't usually require any extra set up.



That was before rage, because when you're only able to rage 1-2 times per day, you're not gonna be raging literally every combat.

Even then, raging only adds +2 to hit and +3 damage.

But starting at more than 20 Strength is pretty good. You should still have more than 20 Strength, especially if we're counting items.




Right, but you need to a running start to your charge unless you can make the full distance with the x2 dc penalty for lacking one, and if the terrain there is difficult, you can't even start your charge.

Just be a Goliath. It's a great choice for an Ubercharger in a mountainous campaign. Actually probably it is the premier choice for that campaign.

Edit 2: I do agree that there are environments where an Ubercharger isn't going to obliterate that in one round. But the idea that martials are just gonna get curbstomped there is probably not accurate assuming a reasonable level of optimization.

[Samael Morgenst]

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.

Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

[Crake]

But starting at more than 20 Strength is pretty good. You should still have more than 20 Strength, especially if we're counting items.

I mean, I was imagining 17-18 starting strength, a +2 item, and your level 4 stat boost in strength, so 17+1+2 = 20.

That's 4k for the stat boost item, 8k for the weapon, out of 19k wbl at level 7, you can't really afford to bump strength up by more there via items, and you can't upgrade your weapon above +1 valorous with that money either. Sure, you can probably boost it above 20 with racial bonuses, but if we're looking at phb races for example, the only option there is half-orc, which might not be what you want from a character building perspective.


Just be a Goliath. It's a great choice for an Ubercharger in a mountainous campaign. Actually probably it is the premier choice for that campaign.

Sure, if this campaign is entirely about going to the mountains, and dealing with frost giants. But it might not be, this might just be one adventure in a greater storyline, so we can't really look at specifically tailoring characters to these encounters.


I do find that letting the Ubercharger do their one trick is usually okay though. Cause they have like one trick, let them do their trick. Not like build everything around them, but if they get to obliterate an enemy every combat it goes well, and that doesn't usually require any extra set up.

I'm not saying that you should actively try and block a character from doing their thing, what I am saying though, is that things like uberchargers work great in a vacuum, but there are plenty of circumstances where they would just be naturally blocked from doing their thing, and the naturally occuring, very abundant difficult terrain in a frost giant's standard environment is one of them.

It's equally the same issue for a stealthy spellcaster. Invisibility is great on hard terrain, but in deep, crunchy snow, those footsteps and footprints will give you away instantly.

Basically, what im getting at is: it's all good in theory, but even the best laid plans don't survive contact with the enemy.

I can almost guarnatee that, were a level 7 caster to go up against a frost giant in their natural environment solo, more often than not, they would lose. Sure they'd probably come out on top once in a while, just due to the nature of save or lose spells and rng, but it would not be a betting man's game.


Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

I'm not saying you open up your players to using OTHER people's homebrew, I'm saying you open up YOURSELF to using YOUR OWN homebrew. And also working with your players to build YOUR homebrew for THEM.

[AMFV]

I mean, I was imagining 17-18 starting strength, a +2 item, and your level 4 stat boost in strength, so 17+1+2 = 20.

That's 4k for the stat boost item, 8k for the weapon, out of 19k wbl at level 7, you can't really afford to bump strength up by more there via items, and you can't upgrade your weapon above +1 valorous with that money either. Sure, you can probably boost it above 20 with racial bonuses, but if we're looking at phb races for example, the only option there is half-orc, which might not be what you want from a character building perspective.

You don't want to make your Ubercharger human. You want them to be like an Orc or a Goliath... or if we're talking bonkers BS stuff an Incarnate Construct Maug who bought off his LA at level 3.

Goliath with Mountain Rage gets the damage boost from size (not that much but it's something). +6 Strength while raging. +4 Strength without. So we're looking at 30 Strength while raging with a +2 Item. That's a pretty big damage jump right there, and a big accuracy jump. Your Incarnate Construct Maug has 28 Strength at level 1. 32 while raging (34 once they get the item), the RHD are a little sad, I think they're worth that +10 Strength, Large size and what-not. And all this is before you get your Wizard friend to buff you some.

Edit: You have to remember one of the big advantages of Charging as a combat style it is that it is relatively feat light, so you can focus on something that's got better stats.



Sure, if this campaign is entirely about going to the mountains, and dealing with frost giants. But it might not be, this might just be one adventure in a greater storyline, so we can't really look at specifically tailoring characters to these encounters.

True, but we also can't assume that they're actively built not to work in a given scenario either.



I'm not saying that you should actively try and block a character from doing their thing, what I am saying though, is that things like uberchargers work great in a vacuum, but there are plenty of circumstances where they would just be naturally blocked from doing their thing, and the naturally occuring, very abundant difficult terrain in a frost giant's standard environment is one of them.

I mean the giants aren't going to be in deep snow all the time, they're going to also be encountered in forts and dungeons and what-not.



It's equally the same issue for a stealthy spellcaster. Invisibility is great on hard terrain, but in deep, crunchy snow, those footsteps and footprints will give you away instantly.

Basically, what im getting at is: it's all good in theory, but even the best laid plans don't survive contact with the enemy.

I can almost guarnatee that, were a level 7 caster to go up against a frost giant in their natural environment solo, more often than not, they would lose. Sure they'd probably come out on top once in a while, just due to the nature of save or lose spells and rng, but it would not be a betting man's game.

Yep! And the Ubercharger is only going to delete one if he can get off a charge and not die to the AoO and then the Giant doesn't have friends....

Edit:


Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

You realize that there's a middle ground between "I allow every single kind of homebrew ever" and "I allow this one thing"

[Crake]

You don't want to make your Ubercharger human. You want them to be like an Orc or a Goliath... or if we're talking bonkers BS stuff an Incarnate Construct Maug who bought off his LA at level 3.

Goliath with Mountain Rage gets the damage boost from size (not that much but it's something). +6 Strength while raging. +4 Strength without. So we're looking at 30 Strength while raging with a +2 Item. That's a pretty big damage jump right there, and a big accuracy jump. Your Incarnate Construct Maug has 28 Strength at level 1. 32 while raging (34 once they get the item), the RHD are a little sad, I think they're worth that +10 Strength, Large size and what-not. And all this is before you get your Wizard friend to buff you some.

I dunno, to me this is leaving the realm of mid-level optimization. To me, mid-level optimization means building the mechanics around the fluff. If your build is dictaing requirements in terms of pretty fundamental character traits like race and class, you've left the realm of mid-level optimization.

A mid level ubercharger is one that isn't dictated by race or class, just a couple of feat choices, and that can slot into most any character.

[AMFV]

I dunno, to me this is leaving the realm of mid-level optimization. To me, mid-level optimization means building the mechanics around the fluff. If your build is dictaing requirements in terms of pretty fundamental character traits like race and class, you've left the realm of mid-level optimization.

A mid level ubercharger is one that isn't dictated by race or class, just a couple of feat choices, and that can slot into most any character.

That's fair. I would say that "Pick a race with a strength bonus" isn't high optimization. "Pick a large race" isn't high optimization. I don't know that any Ubercharger fits into a high optimization environment. Even like your ridiculous Incarnate Construct Maug is probably not quite into high optimization. But yeah, I would disagree on that. I wouldn't consider "feats slotted" to be mid optimization. That's low optimization or alternate role optimization. Like I might do that one a character who isn't going to charge regularly.

Edit: Like Picking intuitively obvious stuff is not high optimization. "I want to hit things hard so I pick a big strong race" is intuitive optimization, which is what defines mid-level optimization. Whereas like Incarnate Construct Maug is not that, that would be higher optimization because it requires making several non-intuitive choices. And that gets you something with a markedly better result

[Crake]

That's fair. I would say that "Pick a race with a strength bonus" isn't high optimization. "Pick a large race" isn't high optimization. I don't know that any Ubercharger fits into a high optimization environment. Even like your ridiculous Incarnate Construct Maug is probably not quite into high optimization. But yeah, I would disagree on that. I wouldn't consider "feats slotted" to be mid optimization. That's low optimization or alternate role optimization. Like I might do that one a character who isn't going to charge regularly.

Edit: Like Picking intuitively obvious stuff is not high optimization. "I want to hit things hard so I pick a big strong race" is intuitive optimization, which is what defines mid-level optimization. Whereas like Incarnate Construct Maug is not that, that would be higher optimization because it requires making several non-intuitive choices. And that gets you something with a markedly better result

Its not about any one decision, its the moment you decide to start pigeon holing your character into specific choices for mechanical benefits that it leaves mid op.

I guess the other question to ask is: does making a human fighter ubercharger make them low op? Because I would argue that making an ubercharger at all pushes you to mid op minimum, thus, making an OPTIMAL ubercharger must result in high op.

Remember, just because something is high op, doesnt mean it has to be tier 1 power. A tier 5 character can still be high op

[AMFV]

Its not about any one decision, its the moment you decide to start pigeon holing your character into specific choices for mechanical benefits that it leaves mid op.

I just agree with this take completely. Picking a race that is obviously a good choice for something is not high optimization. I wouldn't even consider that to be pigeonholed since there are like many many options that would work there. The pigeonhole thing would be when you're starting to look at like again incarnate construct. I would say that high optimization is when you were looking at only the best options or picking only the top options in a particular category.

Mid optimization is when you're maybe glancing at a guy you're picking options that are intuitively good instead of just picking options that are flavor-based. For mid-optimization you have to be considering the mechanical consequences of your character choices. And that includes picking stat choices that are not poor. Low optimization would be picking things for mechanical reasons that aren't the best things or like really not thinking about it too much at all but just kind of picking things that you think are going to be good.

I would say that if you're not considering that at all then you're not optimizing at all you're not in low optimization you're in none.

So picking a Goliath or an orc, or any other race with a strength bonus is not high optimization you're not picking the best option since the best option is fairly obviously the incarnate construct.



I guess the other question to ask is: does making a human fighter ubercharger make them low op? Because I would argue that making an ubercharger at all pushes you to mid op minimum, thus, making an OPTIMAL ubercharger must result in high op.

I would put that at the very end of medium. Like you're picking a choice that standard-wise would be a good one but you're not considering if it's a good one for that build and so that's probably not a low optimization thing... But you're certainly not at the higher end of medium where you're making good choices for your build that aren't necessarily just the best choices.



Remember, just because something is high op, doesnt mean it has to be tier 1 power. A tier 5 character can still be high op

I think that there's a point where you have to be picking mechanically the best options to be considered high OP. Like we're talking again you are picking incarnate construct because it is the best option. You might be picking other options but you're definitely not picking an option that doesn't give you large size


I would say you can make an Uber charger in any range from medium to high it's a little better than low. When we're talking low optimization we're talking not taking leap attack or something. Just power attacking and not taking Spirit Lion. Which is still going to do reasonable charge damage it's just not going to be anywhere near as impressive.

[Unoriginal]

As a DM I would not even take them into consideration, but it's a matter of opinions.

As in, if your players asked you about them you would tell them "I'm not even considering letting those happen at my table"?

[Samael Morgenst]

I would let them try throwing around handfuls of snow in the hope of it sticking to an invisible opponent, sure. But making it work is another matter entirely.

To be fair, I would feel unfair to let invisibility be defeated so easily. Not only for those using invisibility, but also for those who invested in Blind Fighting, Smell, prestige classes with blindsight or tremorsense, ecc.

[Bohandas]

Plus, I would expect that the snow or flour or whatever that stuck to them would disappear like a worn item.

They'd only be 'visible' while the cloud lasted, as an apparent vpid in the cloud

[AMFV]

Plus, I would expect that the snow or flour or whatever that stuck to them would disappear like a worn item.

They'd only be 'visible' while the cloud lasted, as an apparent vpid in the cloud


Yeah, the best way to handle it would be like all circumstantial advantages. The giants get a +2 (or possibly more in more intense snow) bonus to their spot checks to locate the creatures. That would be the reasonable take IMO. Otherwise you're basically making the spells nearly entirely useless in a combat environment.

[Crake]

I would let them try throwing around handfuls of snow in the hope of it sticking to an invisible opponent, sure. But making it work is another matter entirely.

To be fair, I would feel unfair to let invisibility be defeated so easily. Not only for those using invisibility, but also for those who invested in Blind Fighting, Smell, prestige classes with blindsight or tremorsense, ecc.

You know a sack of flour is an actual thing written in an actual dnd book right? Its not some made up idea, its an actually published, official rule for equipment.


Plus, I would expect that the snow or flour or whatever that stuck to them would disappear like a worn item.

They'd only be 'visible' while the cloud lasted, as an apparent vpid in the cloud

As for flour/snow becoming invisible with the creature:
“items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.”

Worth noting that it doesnt make them completely visible, but it does reduce their concealment from total, to normal, so their square is apparent, but they still get 20% miss chance

And lets not forget that the footprints youre leaving behind in the snow make it super obvious where you are, as per the dmg:
“ Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.”

[AMFV]

You know a sack of flour is an actual thing written in an actual dnd book right? Its not some made up idea, its an actually published, official rule for equipment.


What is the specific rules text for that? Can you cite the source?



As for flour/snow becoming invisible with the creature:
“items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.”

This isn't an "item picked up" though. So the rules may be different for something held in the hands as opposed to something that covers you.



Worth noting that it doesnt make them completely visible, but it does reduce their concealment from total, to normal, so their square is apparent, but they still get 20% miss chance

I'd be curious as to where exactly this is coming from. I'd love to see the flour source.



And lets not forget that the footprints youre leaving behind in the snow make it super obvious where you are, as per the dmg:
“ Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.”

A clue to the location sounds like a circumstance bonus or potentially roll twice for the random location thing and take the better result.

[Crake]

What is the specific rules text for that? Can you cite the source?

https://web.archive.org/web/20161031221523/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a&pf=true

Rules of the game article. Also covers specifics on tracking creatures through snow and other such conditions, basically says, in fresh snow, it lets you pinpoint the location until the snow becomes trampled and muddied by combat.

[AMFV]

https://web.archive.org/web/20161031221523/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a&pf=true

Rules of the game article. Also covers specifics on tracking creatures through snow and other such conditions, basically says, in fresh snow, it lets you pinpoint the location until the snow becomes trampled and muddied by combat.

It's worth noting that this is not actual official rules but rather Skip's interpretation. Which is usually quite good, but sometimes is not as good.

Also worth noting:


an unseen creature's tracks probably will betray its location, at least during the first few rounds of a fight (before all the snow becomes thoroughly trampled).

As you can see by my added emphasis, Skip doesn't say that's a hard fast rule. Only that it will probably happen. So that's not exactly ironclad there even in that circumstance.


Surfaces or conditions that don't leave clear tracks still might give you a bonus (the DM can decide how big) in Spot checks to notice or locate unseen creatures. You might get a Spot bonus in areas covered with tall grass, undergrowth, dust, or running water (assuming the unseen creature is wading and not submerged; see next section).

Which sounds like what I was advocating for. Sure in perfect conditions you might know, but I would otherwise give a circumstance bonus.


Toss the bag of flour just like a splash weapon. A direct hit leaves an invisible creature smeared with flour, which reveals the creature's location. An invisible creature caught in the flour's splash effect can attempt a Reflex save (DC 20) to avoid getting covered with flour. A creature can shed its outer clothing (at least a full-round action) and be rid of the flour. Otherwise, it must bathe or wait for the flour to wear off on its own (which takes an hour or two in dry conditions).

I think this is kind of Skip making a houserule. Unless it occurs somewhere in the actual rules. Also notably he doesn't say that you lose full concealment only that your location is known. It's not unreasonable, but I do think that it really invalidates invisibility or makes it considerably less effective and that has some significant gameplay implications.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that this is not actual official rules but rather Skip's interpretation. Which is usually quite good, but sometimes is not as good.

I mean, the guy DID write the core 3.5 rulebooks. Worth noting that web articles are generally considered official rules, especially considering there is actual content in the web articles that is very frequently used.

You can almost imagine them as a precursor to the "official rulings on twitter" that we have for 5e these days.


Also worth noting:



As you can see by my added emphasis, Skip doesn't say that's a hard fast rule. Only that it will probably happen. So that's not exactly ironclad there even in that circumstance.

Sure, because not all circumstances are going to be identical.


Which sounds like what I was advocating for. Sure in perfect conditions you might know, but I would otherwise give a circumstance bonus.

The conditions outlined there are not equivalent to snow. Tall grass and dirt don't leave such obvious footprints and tracks as fresh snow does.


I think this is kind of Skip making a houserule. Unless it occurs somewhere in the actual rules. Also notably he doesn't say that you lose full concealment only that your location is known. It's not unreasonable, but I do think that it really invalidates invisibility or makes it considerably less effective and that has some significant gameplay implications.

I think that's a kind of gamist approach to take honestly. "Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and so must only be countered by things of at least equal degrees of power". But it's also not like it's completely invalidating invisibility as a whole, it's just taking into account the environment, and how it would affect invisibility. Even in lord of the rings, gollum uses frodo's footprints to locate him while he had the ring on in mount doom, and that was FAR less idea of a circumstance than fresh snow, so it's not like using footprints to locate invisible creatures is completely foreign.

Saying that, if you don't have a specifically designed counter to invisibility, that it should be completely undefeatable is, in my opinion, completely antithetical to the whole notion of ttrpgs in the first place. They are a space where creativity and ideas should be rewarded. If we wanted to play in a very rigid framework of gameplay, computer games provide us with that.

[AMFV]

I mean, the guy DID write the core 3.5 rulebooks. Worth noting that web articles are generally considered official rules, especially considering there is actual content in the web articles that is very frequently used.

Web Articles that provide class features are... I wouldn't consider this kind of clarification to be under normal circumstances. And even if they are they get pretty muddy here. I like Skip. That's why I said "He's usually pretty good" or something to that effect.



Sure, because not all circumstances are going to be identical.

Yeah, but I would say "invisibility always loses to snow" is just probably not correct. "Invisibility is made more difficult by snow" would be.



The conditions outlined there are not equivalent to snow. Tall grass and dirt don't leave such obvious footprints and tracks as fresh snow does.

Actually he outlines several situations in which snow might not be that way. If there are lots of footprints in an area being by far the most common.



I think that's a kind of gamist approach to take honestly. "Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and so must only be countered by things of at least equal degrees of power". But it's also not like it's completely invalidating invisibility as a whole, it's just taking into account the environment, and how it would affect invisibility. Even in lord of the rings, gollum uses frodo's footprints to locate him while he had the ring on in mount doom, and that was FAR less idea of a circumstance than fresh snow, so it's not like using footprints to locate invisible creatures is completely foreign.

Saying that, if you don't have a specifically designed counter to invisibility, that it should be completely undefeatable is, in my opinion, completely antithetical to the whole notion of ttrpgs in the first place. They are a space where creativity and ideas should be rewarded. If we wanted to play in a very rigid framework of gameplay, computer games provide us with that.

Using a strategy that has existed in books since the 1970s is NOT you being creative. Like it's not. Most players have read about that in multiple books and likely read about it in TTRPG books. I reward creative solutions.

[Crake]

Actually he outlines several situations in which snow might not be that way. If there are lots of footprints in an area being by far the most common.

Yeah, I made that distinction too, "in fresh snow, it lets you pinpoint the location until the snow becomes trampled and muddied by combat."


Using a strategy that has existed in books since the 1970s is NOT you being creative. Like it's not. Most players have read about that in multiple books and likely read about it in TTRPG books. I reward creative solutions.

Using the "everything is derivative" argument doesn't make player ideas any less creative. The point was that stepping outside of the rules framework is a feature, not a bug.

[AMFV]

Yeah, I made that distinction too, "in fresh snow, it lets you pinpoint the location until the snow becomes trampled and muddied by combat."

In fresh snow on a clear day, sure that's not an unreasonable way to run things.



Using the "everything is derivative" argument doesn't make player ideas any less creative. The point was that stepping outside of the rules framework is a feature, not a bug.

Stepping outside the rules framework is a feature. Allowing things just because they are outside the rules framework... is not. There's a wide space between "Rule of Cool" DMs that basically make the rules not matter. And I think that is a spectrum, but everybody falls a little different on it. I wouldn't appreciate monsters using Flour to always break my invisibility as a player. And generally if that's a workable solution, enemies should know about it too. To be fair Skip suggests a Reflex save against it and it only reveals location (in his ruling).

Edit:

Also my argument isn't "everything is derivative" it's "doing something derivative is less likely to get a free pass from me.

[Crake]

Stepping outside the rules framework is a feature. Allowing things just because they are outside the rules framework... is not. There's a wide space between "Rule of Cool" DMs that basically make the rules not matter. And I think that is a spectrum, but everybody falls a little different on it. I wouldn't appreciate monsters using Flour to always break my invisibility as a player. And generally if that's a workable solution, enemies should know about it too.

Sure, it would be absurd if EVERY enemy just happened to have sacks of flour on them to counter your invisibility, but I'm more referring to using the environment. The enemy might not have a sack of flour on them, but if they were in a muddy environment, they might try and take a ready action to sling mud at you when you give away your location somehow, by either making an attack (if you were using greater invis), or opening a door, or even if they just make a lucky DC20 spot check to pinpoint your location.

Or if you were fighting in a barn, just grabbing hay from the loft and raining it down on a fight that's happening below, or maybe if you had a vial of ink because you're a writer, you might use that to splash an invisible foe.

Hell, maybe your character is a milk drinker, and they have a bottle of milk that they can use!

There are tonnes of ways you can do it without it having to be contrived, but while also simultaneously rewarding careful gameplay by the invisible person to not actually give away their position in the first place, rather than just making invisibility a blanket "i win" spell if the enemies lack a counter.

As a side note, since invisibility does make currently worn/attended items invisible when cast, a re-cast of invisibility would also once more hide your character when coated in such a way.


To be fair Skip suggests a Reflex save against it and it only reveals location (in his ruling).

Reflex save for the splash yeah, not for a direct hit. In fairness, kicking up a wave of snow wouldn't have a "direct hit" option, so I can imagine it allowing a save as well.

[Samael Morgenst]

You know a sack of flour is an actual thing written in an actual dnd book right? Its not some made up idea, its an actually published, official rule for equipment.

A sack of flour, I can accept. Doing the trick throwing around snow or dirt, no.

[Crake]

A sack of flour, I can accept. Doing the trick throwing around snow or dirt, no.

Is there a reason why flour would work but snow/dirt would not?

[Samael Morgenst]

From a game balance / fairness perspective, buying a flour sack and carrying it is a minor expence and a weight burden for a low level group, so it deserves to work.

From a realism perspective, flour powder is sticky, fine and light while snow is not likely to work the same way or to be as easily thrown on a wide area.

[AMFV]

From a game balance / fairness perspective, buying a flour sack and carrying it is a minor expence and a weight burden for a low level group, so it deserves to work.

From a realism perspective, flour powder is sticky, fine and light while snow is not likely to work the same way or to be as easily thrown on a wide area.

From a realism perspective throwing a bunch of flour into an area that has a lot of open flames is likely to be a big problem.

[Samael Morgenst]

Eheheh, true, I didn't thought about that.

[Crake]

From a game balance / fairness perspective, buying a flour sack and carrying it is a minor expence and a weight burden for a low level group, so it deserves to work.

From a realism perspective, flour powder is sticky, fine and light while snow is not likely to work the same way or to be as easily thrown on a wide area.

I exclusively care about realism, so I never make rulings based on "game balance". Personal opinion, but simulationism is far more important to me than "game balance".

So with that in mind, snow and mud, being wet, are probably MORE sticky than flour would be.

That said, a fistful of mud probably wouldn't have the splash effect of a sack of flour, and would require a direct hit, while a wave of snow would have the opposite, lacking the ability for a direct hit, but allowing a reflex save, or alternatively, a snowball would offer much the same effect as slinging mud, being direct hit only. Neither are as effective as a sack of flour, and both are limited by environmental availability, so if you want "game balance" I guess you can consider that as a limiting factor.

[Samael Morgenst]

Unrelated question.

It would be feasible to use the Clone spell, or a variant, to artificially harvest dragon meat / scales / bones / blood / fangs / claws?
And would it be ethically acceptable?

[Inevitability]

Unrelated question.

It would be feasible to use the Clone spell, or a variant, to artificially harvest dragon meat / scales / bones / blood / fangs / claws?
And would it be ethically acceptable?

Yeah, clone is silly like that. You'd have to pay the material component and possess the focus, you'd have to wait 2d4 months, but it should work. D&D already thinks it's ethically acceptable to harvest the corpses of living breathing (non-good) dragons; doing so to inanimate dragon corpses should be especially fine. As far as I know, the only rule against harvesting living creatures for parts is in the BoED, where it only covers good creatures.

[Samael Morgenst]

Woah. 1000 gp of material components and 2d4 months of wait to get the raw material for a fullplate, an indeterminate number of bows (I guess four, one for limb) , a shield and twelve weapons, all dragoncraft.

It's a good deal. It could become a profitable industry.
I wonder how much would ask a great wyrm for 1 cubic inch of his flesh to start the enterprise.

[Inevitability]

I wonder how much would ask a great wyrm for 1 cubic inch of his flesh to start the enterprise.

The great wyrm is the one running the enterprise. Where else are you going to find high-level sorcerer casting in combination with a love for money and ready access to dragonflesh? :smalltongue:

[AMFV]

Unrelated question.

It would be feasible to use the Clone spell, or a variant, to artificially harvest dragon meat / scales / bones / blood / fangs / claws?
And would it be ethically acceptable?

Ethics is really culturally variable. I think that if that were possible in real life you'd have probably 50 different answers to it. At least in the case of D&D Clones explicitly don't have souls or really intellect of their own. So it just depends on your views on body autonomy which is going to be different for every society.

[Crake]

corpses of living breathing (non-good) dragons;

"Corpse"... "living breathing"...

[Inevitability]

"Corpse"... "living breathing"...

If you know a better word for 'corpse that was once alive, as opposed to a corpse that was never alive', I'd love to hear it.

[rel]

Since the thread seems to have moved from 'how much should Fantasy Mr Johnson be offering the PC's to bring in a dragon, alive and unspoiled' to 'how effective should flour be against invisibility' for some reason I guess it's time to weigh in again.

From memory complete Scoundrel provides an alchemical item, Torchbug Paste, which functions much like a mundane faerie fire grenade and sells for about 20gp / shot.
I'd rule flour, correctly prepared and packaged should work as a less reliable version of that; Only partially effective, possible to brush / wash off with an action and maybe a skill check. Eventually dispersing after the orc guard has hit the wizard trying to play scout over the head a few times, that sort of thing.

[Crake]

If you know a better word for 'corpse that was once alive, as opposed to a corpse that was never alive', I'd love to hear it.

Corpses are, by definition "dead" bodies, thus meaning they are, by requirement, needing to be of creatures that were once alive. "Remains" probably fits better for the leftovers of a nonliving creature.

[Samael Morgenst]

Weird thoughts...

from the Draconomicon:


MOUNTAIN LANDWYRM
Colossal Dragon
Hit Dice: 40d12+440 (700 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft.
Armor Class: 31 (–8 size, –1 Dex, +30 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+72
Attack: Bite +48 melee (4d18+16/19–20)
Full Attack: Bite +48 melee (4d18+16/19–20) and 2 claws +46 melee (4d6+8)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Frightful presence, snatch, thunderous roar
Special Qualities: —
Saves: Fort +33, Ref +21, Will +29
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 8, Con 32, Int 13, Wis 25, Cha 20
Skills: Climb +46, Concentration +31, Diplomacy +45, Gather Information +7, Hide +23*, Intimidate +25, Knowledge (local) +21, Knowledge (nature) +21, Listen +27, Sense Motive +27, Spot +47, Survival +31
Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Stealthy, Track
Environment: Temperate mountains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 22
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 41–48 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —
The mountain landwyrm spends most of its days in slumber, hidden away in a secret cave in the heart of a great peak. But when awake, it is one of the fiercest creatures to walk the planet. At first glance, a mountain landwyrm appears to be a craggy mass of rock. In fact, it is possible to walk right past one (despite its size) and never suspect it was there. However, once it is awakened, its tread shakes the ground. Mountain landwyrms subsist primarily on a diet of stone, occasionally venturing forth for a meal of a few dire bears or stone giants. They have no true enemies, since even the eldest red dragon knows better than to pick a fight with such a creature. Still, they have been known to interact peacefully with creatures that offer the proper gifts and obeisance. Mountain landwyrms speak Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, and Common.

Combat: A mountain landwyrm opens combat with its thunderous roar and frightful presence, and then picks off injured opponents with patient skill. Once angered, a mountain landwyrm does not rest until it has destroyed its foes, tracking them for days if necessary.

Frightful Presence (Ex): 200-ft. radius, HD 39 or fewer, Will DC 35 negates.

Snatch (Ex): Against Large or smaller creatures, bite for 4d8+16/round or claw for 4d6+8/round.

Thunderous Roar (Su): Once per day a mountain landwyrm can emit a thunderous roar. This is the equivalent of a greater shout spell. Caster level 20th.

Skills: *Mountain landwyrms have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in mountain terrain. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the landwyrm is immobile.


Let's imagine an half-dragon (red) Mountain Landwyrm.

Would it find relatively easy to "adopt" / become the guardian of a newly hatched true dragon wyrmling?

Also, would red dragons treat such a creature with more or less contempt than usual?