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mostlyharmful
2007-12-15, 07:26 PM
Given that it takes a high level caster months to create a powerful magic item, your time and resources (XP) gets ever more valuable, even with apprentices, acolytes and assistants it still takes up time and effort and combined with the unreliablity of people with that amount of cash to throw around and the inability for the creator to ensure that said item wont be used against them or their allies I've got something of a problem with some of the standerd ideas of what's expected to be available to combat based PCs.

The general theme of my point, were I to be said to have one, is that there are very significant drawbacks to making the sort of high level toys adventurers rely on. Now, I can well believe mages or clerics working on things to improve their own casting, maybe even some of the more versatile pieces of equipment but not the high end weapons or armour. This isn't to say that I can't envision the creation of magic weapons and such, it's a very lucrative market that casters have sewn up. Temples and churches obviously have armed wings that'd use this kind of stuff and mages may have some bodyguards that need a higher than average level of equipment but investing time and power into items that might be used against them in the future. There are potential safeguards that can be put in place using the guidelines in the DMG for ensuring that only those of a particular race/alignment/skill-set/?? but that can only be used if the DM is agreeable and even so UMD can be used to get around them. Taking the (potentially contentious use of FR here) example of the Thayan dealers in magic, they make a huge profit on the magic item trade but dot sell anything over +1 or +2 to long term, reliable customers not superweapons that become a liability the moment they're out of eyeline. There is statistically far more low level people running around the place, with far fewer able to create their own gear so the money angle becomes less and less reliable if not less profitable at higher enchantments.

Now the ruleset takes the existance of powerful equipment for granted but it seems unbeleivably dumb for anyone to create it without taking measures to keep track of it, to take a real world example while small arms might be sold in some countries or by some international companies no-one likes the thought of atomic weaponry and governments take a fairly dim view of trying to get hold of the damn stuff. So when the fighter gets his hand on the +4 Vorpal scimitar or the uber-armour of Dread it just jars something for me. for Arcane casters the reduction in high calibre ordinance makes them even stronger, for clerics you've got Greater Magic Weapon so they don't really need the huge bonuses and Druids don't need weapons at all.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-15, 07:29 PM
Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-15, 07:32 PM
Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

even that doesn't cover it, given that your can pick up this stuff out of dragon hoardes, NPC equipment, crypts, whatever...

KIDS
2007-12-15, 07:35 PM
I quite agree with you; most of those items are quite useless for a caster and one has to wonder why they'd make it, provided they even take the appropriate feat. Then one resorts to gifts of the gods, dragon hoards and ancient times, but that can be pulled out only so many times.

In the end, what I also hope to see in 4E, is a way to craft exceptional (like MW Rank 5, which gives +5 on attack rolls) or magical items for noncasters. Without it, your legendary swordsmith can only be a high level wiz/clr today, which is kind of depressing.

One method I do like and use to bypass the (for me) dumb magic market is Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a general, not exalted feat, and lets anyone who takes it "disenchant" magical items to add to the power of the Relic he has chosen, i.e. enchant it. It in some ways resembles World of Warcraft's nicely made magic item crafting system (at least its' "enchanting") and makes sense for most characters.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-15, 07:43 PM
Well, the world has been around for a while, magic items are pretty strong, so they could have all survived for quite a while, also there are duskblades and eldrich knights around who would like to have weaponry too.

Reinboom
2007-12-15, 07:43 PM
I always figured that most of the items were created over hundreds of years.
Your +4 Vorpal scimitar could've been made 456 years ago by a desert bounty hunter on the eastern continent. 390 years after his death, and after a lot of exchanges, it has fallen into your hands.
Your Armor was crafted 320 years ago.
Etc.

I figure that only a couple pieces of high powered equipment was crafted by any given individual. Over time, however, a lot of equipment overall has been crafted...

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 07:47 PM
Well step one is to take Ye Olde Magic Shope out of every town. Buying and selling magical items should be constricted to very low power level items. Even then it's a pretty risky business dealing with people who have that kind of money to throw around.

Step two is to add a backstory to every high power level magic item that you give to the PCs in dragon-hordes and stuff. Such things should be plot related and very important to the PCs. Good examples of this can be found in Tolkien:

1) Sting, it is a very important thing to Bilbo and Frodo and is not later cast aside for a new sword with a higher number.

2) The Ring (and all Rings), it is a powerful item and the creator is doing his best to keep track of it and get it back.

3) Merry's anti-Angmar blade from the barrow downs, it is an important plot-device that allowed The Witch King to be killed.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-15, 08:09 PM
Let's not bring LoTR to the debtate. LoTR is a really low power setting, so it crashes with the D&D system.


If you want to make a point, try Greyhawk history. Or FR.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-12-15, 08:17 PM
Well step one is to take Ye Olde Magic Shope out of every town. Buying and selling magical items should be constricted to very low power level items. Even then it's a pretty risky business dealing with people who have that kind of money to throw around.

Look, every item in the game has a use. The only ones that should never see use are expensive ones where a cheaper direct equivalent is available in high supply. This means that, since a caster can make quite a lot of money crafting items, that there's certainly an incentive to do so. Combine a good incentive with a couple thousand years of history and it's quite likely you'll find whatever you need, even if it takes a little looking first.

EDIT: In fact, there's even a better explanation for bad ones. Someone thought that what the world really, really needed was foo, and spent his whole life developing and making thousands of them. Finally, he released it... and no one wanted it.

A hundred years later, a hero was fighting a lich who Disjunctioned him. Stripped of his gear, the hero fought back with the only thing at hand -- a foo. When he told his story, the things came back into vogue... until everyone discovered just how utterly useless foos are. Which means that there are now tens of thousands of t he things lying around in magic shops and hordes, collecting dust and waiting for the hero that for some reason simply must have a foo.

The first person to say "I pity the foo" gets SLAPPED.


Step two is to add a backstory to every high power level magic item that you give to the PCs in dragon-hordes and stuff. Such things should be plot related and very important to the PCs.

If something isn't important to a player, it's not going to be important to a PC. This is impossible to beat without taking control of the character away from the player, because a player is able to control a character's likes, dislikes and wants. If the player wants something, he can always come up with an RP reason to want it.


1) Sting, it is a very important thing to Bilbo and Frodo and is not later cast aside for a new sword with a higher number.

...Because they never find one.


2) The Ring (and all Rings), it is a powerful item and the creator is doing his best to keep track of it and get it back.

Yeah, because it contains his soul. I'd be willing to bet that Sauron'd have let it go if it didn't and something more powerful had come his way.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 08:30 PM
I'm simply giving examples of magic items with stories.

I don't mean that people should turn their D&D games in LotRs and I certainly don't want this thread to turn into people personal opinion of LotRs.

Also, I wasn't really debating with anyone; I was giving suggestions on how to make magic items in D&D games more important/fun than shiny objects being thrown around willy nilly.

One example that I used (The One Ring) was setting specific, but I did not mean that all magic items should be capable of spelling doom for the entire world and hunted down by the most powerful entity in the world. Sorry, I could have been more clear.

I simply meant The Ring (and other rings) to be examples of items that the creator tried to keep tabs on after creating it.

I'm not quite sure why you would choose to reprimand my choice of reference material rather than address the ideas that I presented or contribute something else relevant to the discuss.

Speaking of contributing relevant things to the discussion...

Fenix_of_Doom and SweetRein are right about magic items being crafted throughout history and surviving to fall into the hands of present day adventurers. I definitely like to use this approach and it also allows plenty of opportunity to craft epic backstories to go with your epic items as well as to have items be important to plot; if your PCs or NPCs are even a fraction the age of the items then they may have encountered them before.

Also Gish characters are good candidates for crafting magical arms and armor. Casters may also have granted powerful items to those who they knew would serve to further their ambitions (whether good or evil). Items, through the years, would also be given to seduce individuals into service... ...or reward them for service and deeds.

EDIT: Oop, new post while I posted, will go read now.

TheLogman
2007-12-15, 08:33 PM
Two theories:

1. There is a Genesis Plane of Archivists where everyone is happy and there is pie. The Archivists make stuff.

2. The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 08:38 PM
Tsu, your explanation of how there are many foos starts out with someone thinking it's a good idea to make thousands of useless items.
Feel free to use whatever you like in your games, but that explanation seems like a bit of a cop-out to me.

No they didn't find a more powerful sword (besides ones that other characters owned/got), but the important point is that the magical item was important to them and not simply a number.
If the way you hand out magic items promises constantly improving equipment to the PCs at very reliable intervals then they will not care about the fluff of your items and only the mechanics.
I'm not saying you shouldn't give PCs better equipment as they level up.
I'm only saying that I enjoy games where magical items mean something more than the number attributed to them.

The bit The Ring was addressed already.

EDIT:
The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

Mind if I use this in some comedy/high-magic game I run in the future? I love it.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-12-15, 08:38 PM
Two theories:

1. There is a Genesis Plane of Archivists where everyone is happy and there is pie. The Archivists make stuff.

Midgard Dwarves, actually. Crack Frostburn to page 124 and read about 'em.


2. The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

Bweheheh. I like that.


Tsu, your explanation of how there are many foos starts out with someone thinking it's a good idea to make thousands of useless items.
Feel free to use whatever you like in your games, but that explanation seems like a bit of a cop-out to me.

It happens in real life all the time, man. Just Google useless inventions.


I'm only saying that I enjoy games where magical items mean something more than the number attributed to them.

Hey, that's fine -- my point is that you can't make your players (and, by extension, their characters) feel that way if they disagree no matter what you do.


The bit The Ring was addressed already.

Not really. My point is that Sauron would have gone after it if it were a broken beer bottle that happened to contain his soul. The One Ring is probably the most famous MacGuffin in literary history besides the Holy Grail.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 09:05 PM
OK, I accept your point about The Ring holding a portion of Sauron "soul" so to speak.
The point of using it as an example was simply for the fact that the creator was keeping tabs on the creation (people kept tabs on the other rings as well even though no "souls" were contained in them).
If the original creator of the Uber-Sword 2000 is still around there's a good chance they want it back and will therefore get involved with the PCs in come way, shape, or form.

Yes, sometime people do less than advisable things, but a Wizard (who has a higher than average intelligence if he's casting spells higher than 1st level) dedicating his life to flooding the market with useless items is not going to be a very common occurrence in any world I create (unless it's the aforementioned high-magic/comedy setting).

Also, I acknowledge that you cannot force players to have their characters become emotionally attached to items, but you can't really expect it to happen if you never give your items any fluff. Fluff is the important point here. Whether it's the fact that it glows under certain conditions (which may have some practical benefit as well) or the past great owners (or deeds) of the item fluff simply makes items more interesting (just like every other aspect of the game) and when things are interesting then players are more likely to get interested and possibly even attached to them.

I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

FlyMolo
2007-12-15, 09:11 PM
Personally, my opinion on magic items is make 'em unique. Like the spoon that turns granite into soup( it was on the boards here a while back.) Now that's cool. I also favor slightly cursed items that are about 10000000x more useful if you can work out how they work. Like a Wand of 2/day finger of death that's activated by singing a certain tune. Love to see the PCs play with that one until they get it right.

Edit: Don't tell them it's a +1 short sword. Just say it looks supernaturally shiny. Give it some obscure effect, like a burst quality, but only if wielded by somebody wearing white gloves. Or something.

But, to answer the OP, magic items get made by high-level wizards to finance epic spell researching. Also, WBL guidelines aren't some arbitrary number generated out of thin air. Presumably wizards make this stuff for a living, going on easy adventures to get some exp so they can make more stuff.

So: Wizards make the stuff. Because researching epic-level spells is EXPENSIVE! Also, making magic items is safer than going out and killing dragons.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-12-15, 09:14 PM
I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

And I will care about it a lot less if I'm built to use lances and I need to hock it to afford a +1 valorous one.

tyckspoon
2007-12-15, 09:17 PM
I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

If you want the player to keep *using* his father's sword of defending against marauding draconic chihuahuas, however, you have to provide some means for it to become a more useful weapon. No matter how attached the character is to it, if it stays as a plain ol' +1 shortsword while the character levels up he's going to leave it stored in the Handysack and actually fight with something more appropriate to the enemies he faces. Fluffing up the weapons is nice, but it doesn't change the core design expectations of every character somehow acquiring an ever-improving array of gear.

Arbitrarity
2007-12-15, 09:18 PM
Now, if only weapons of legacy had decent mechanics :smallannoyed:

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 09:26 PM
And I will care about it a lot less if I'm built to use lances and I need to hock it to afford a +1 valorous one.

OK, replace "short sword" with "lance" and don't come back to me saying "what if I built my character to use tridents?"

Heck, I might keep the magical family heirloom sword even if I have neither the training nor the inclination to use it.

Now if I want it to be my main weapon then yes, I do require a certain power level from it (and yes weapons of legacy could have been so much better).

If one assumes that players and DMs are working independently and don't work off each other at all (let alone try to work together) then yeah, you're probably in for a mediocre gaming experience at best.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-15, 09:39 PM
Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded. Jeeze, seems like the people's DMG-fu has weakened.

Starsinger
2007-12-15, 09:41 PM
Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded.

Shh! That's a secret! :smallwink:

tyckspoon
2007-12-16, 03:31 AM
Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded. Jeeze, seems like the people's DMG-fu has weakened.

Yeah, I know, but in the context of this discussion.. letting your players take their weapons to some wizard and have them custom enchanted isn't very much different from having the Magic Mart with ten different varieties of magic sword hanging on the wall. It changes the weapon from something unique back to a purchased tool, albeit one the character probably has a little more sentimality about.

Kaelik
2007-12-16, 04:45 AM
Yeah, I know, but in the context of this discussion.. letting your players take their weapons to some wizard and have them custom enchanted isn't very much different from having the Magic Mart with ten different varieties of magic sword hanging on the wall. It changes the weapon from something unique back to a purchased tool, albeit one the character probably has a little more sentimality about.

That's the point. Magic items are purchased tools. They aren't sentimental. For balance reasons you have WBL. For that you need several magic items. You have a party of four people. If every one of those items has a backstory then you are looking at 30 independent stories per adventuring group.

But the point is that magic items are tools. That's all. And you pay a Wizard/Cleric/Artificer to make you a tool. Then you use it.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-16, 11:37 AM
Maybe they just appear from out of nothing. Being all creepy like.

Or, it's part of a vast farplane born conspiracy. When the stars are right all the magic items will suddenly turn into horrible monsters that will eat our brains.

And also sell us insurance.

Leicontis
2007-12-16, 12:11 PM
What is all this talk that the people capable of crafting high-level weapons and armor wouldn't make them for themselves?

Ever hear of a Cleric? I had a PC Cleric of Tempus (FR CN god of War) who enchanted his (and the rest of the party's) weapons and armor when he got the chance. By end game, the party was nicely equipped, and a lot of this came from the party Cleric.

As a side note:

Yes, sometime people do less than advisable things, but a Wizard (who has a higher than average intelligence if he's casting spells higher than 1st level) dedicating his life to flooding the market with useless items is not going to be a very common occurrence in any world I create (unless it's the aforementioned high-magic/comedy setting).
How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

horseboy
2007-12-16, 02:14 PM
How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

To support, even if a player doesn't see it as useful, someone in the world will. After all, look at how much money Cousteau made off of SCUBA, compare that to an Apparatus of Kulwalsh. Shipping companies would pay big for a fan token to keep from being becalmed.

As to the stupidly powerful weapons and armour, I always considered them not made but empowered. Your average 15+ level adventurer is always off battling reality shattering enemies, fighting the gods themselves, hanging out on other planes of existence and all manner of other weird environments. Since weapons last longer than people (Usually) after a while they've absorbed so much "magical radiation" that they've got all kinds of crazy powers. It might start out as a +3 or +4, then grow in power as it passes through more hands and does the same things.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-16, 02:54 PM
How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

Or perhaps those with less int just cannot fathom the point of such items.

Wizard: "What do you mean a spoon that creates non-sustaining gruel is useless? I love the taste of gruel!"

Or maybe some wizards are just crazy.




As to the stupidly powerful weapons and armour, I always considered them not made but empowered. Your average 15+ level adventurer is always off battling reality shattering enemies, fighting the gods themselves, hanging out on other planes of existence and all manner of other weird environments. Since weapons last longer than people (Usually) after a while they've absorbed so much "magical radiation" that they've got all kinds of crazy powers. It might start out as a +3 or +4, then grow in power as it passes through more hands and does the same things.

Now that's a pretty neat idea.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-16, 02:56 PM
Interesting idea. That in itself would allow DMs to upgrade players items for them sometimes.

For instance: if the players go to the elemental plane of fire don't let them find a +2 flaming-burst sword to replace their +2 sword simply tell them that through contact with the plane the sword has absorbed the flaming-burst quality.
Or: if the players fight lots of Orcs make their weapon turn into an Orc-bane weapon
This technique will also make your sessions more memorable as every time the power is activated the players will remember the adventure on the elemental plane of fire.
Not to mention that this makes the item more customised to the character's personal experiences which, I think, makes them more likely to become attached to it.

Kaelik
2007-12-16, 03:02 PM
Not to mention that this makes the item more customised to the character's personal experiences which, I think, makes them more likely to become attached to it.

Not to mention this means that no one can get the magical effects they want. So they keep selling their +8 equivalent weapons to buy things they actually want like Str enhancers and teleportation boots.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-16, 03:10 PM
Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

Well, that explains a lot...:smallbiggrin:

Truth to tell, that's what I also usually prefer.

Magic items in the standard rules with prices given assume there are liquid enough markets for those items, even for the most powerful ones (short of artefacts). This in turn means there are enough casters with creation feats around. Since the items are permanent and rarely get destroyed, already thousands of years of item creation apparently have resulted in the widespread availability of magic items in the standard game.

This can be altered in both directions - either make those items even more common (say, by halving the price to create items and giving item creation feat also to mere craftsmen with high skills). This would result in world where magic leads to some sort of industrial revolution and "modern" world. Quite fantastic, but highly different to DM.
The other direction is the magic-poor campaign where items are more difficult to make. This is what a lot of people prefer to create more "realistic" medieval-like campaigns.
(Of course, both profound changes also have consequences for class balance, but that's for a different thread...:smallbiggrin: )

- Giacomo

Mikeavelli
2007-12-16, 03:34 PM
1. NPC's do not have to follow the rules.

A Given Wizard might spend all his days and night studying arcane lore in a tower somewhere, never so much as cast a magic missile to kill a housecat, and eventually reach level 20. Why? Because the exp system that depends on murdering hapless bystanders to gain arcane knowledge doesn't apply to them. It's there for the players, as part of the game.

Similarly, the item creation rules are balanced for PCs who want to create their own gear. An NPC wizard might churn out magical swords, armor, potions, scrolls, etc. all day long, and concievably GAIN levels due to the fact that he's constantly practicing.

2. Magic shops depend on the world.

In a high-magic world like, say, the Forgotten Realms, where there is no end to the number of high-level NPC's wasting away on the sidelines of the story, it is no great stretch of the imagination to see them supplement their income by the creation of magical items. Low-level things like Scrolls or potions, that sell for twice as much as they cost to make, and have a wide customer base (who doesn't want a potion of Cure Light wounds around, just in case?) - should be available easily enough.

Rarer items, needing the equivalent around an 8th level or higher caster to create, might not be appropriate to find sitting on the shelves somewhere. Nevertheless, high-level wizards who don't want to go adventuring need an income to build their towers, fuel their acquisition of ancient books, and pay adventurers to retrieve macguffins for them. In a high-magic, or hell, even normal-magic world, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to find a wizard willing to create an occasional magic item for you on commission. You pay half in advance, and the second half at the end of the creation process.

3. Keeping track.

Extremely powerful magical items like the One Ring ARE generally kept track of by their creators. We have a word for those:

Artifacts.

Vecna has a great deal of influence over where his disembodied eye and hand end up. Heward probably keeps tabs on his mystical organ, and yes, Sauron has a hard-on for the One Ring. These are the legendary magical items with pages of backstory that campaigns, sometimes entire worlds revolve around.

In a world where tens of thousands of gold pieces are thrown around like confetti, forging a +1 sword is not going to be a particularly noteworthy event in the grand scheme of things. If you want to add some flavor to your equipment, that's fine, but it's not strictly necessary.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-16, 03:37 PM
Not to mention this means that no one can get the magical effects they want. So they keep selling their +8 equivalent weapons to buy things they actually want like Str enhancers and teleportation boots.

This is why you:

A) Don't have every magical item for sale by eevry commoner and his dog

and

I don't know if I should tell you this... it seems like a secret that very few are aware of... oh well, I guess I'll let you know

B) Work together with your players to create a fun gaming experience for everyone

EDIT:
If a PC creates a Staff of Power or some other higher power-level magic item you can damn well bet they are gonna look after it. It isn't an artifact, but it's worth a lot to them.
So, when a NPC creates a Staff of Power, sure, it doesn't hold their soul, but...

kamikasei
2007-12-16, 04:00 PM
Not to mention this means that no one can get the magical effects they want. So they keep selling their +8 equivalent weapons to buy things they actually want like Str enhancers and teleportation boots.

Why would you sell your weapon to buy non-weapon items? You're presumably already getting the WBL to cover those.

SoD
2007-12-16, 04:05 PM
I thought the WBL icluded items you find, not just all the pretty coins.

And there'd easily be wizards who get paid a helluva lot for a +5 sword of uber.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-16, 04:12 PM
In my Newr campagin a Magical Market would make perfect sense...no Magical Market wouldn't make much sense

Other campagain settings like let's take Greyhawk shall we? you get gods like Boccob or Wee Jas have clerics/Wizards who take makeing a magical item as a act of worship will make tons of them just to pray.

there is excuses in every campagin. Ebrron has house cannith and the last war...surplus.

there is FR, Mystara and the like (see; wee Jas, Boccob)

Such things are not uncommon in a world with gods who like the magical items.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-16, 04:42 PM
The original idea wasn't about the mechanics of item creation or the ability of NPCs to make them, it wasn't focussed on how the PCs get hold of these sort of hardware so much as the inadvisability of anyone capable of making the stuff to actually do it in the first place.

With the exception of some Arcane Gishes there isn't any casters that arn't better off in a world without high end weaponry and armour, with Greater Magic Weapon/fang and the Vestment/Mage armour type spells Gishes can generally do as well or better without investing the money and that's before you start talking about other people being able to use it against them.

I can get behind the idea of magic weapons picking up powers as they're used, legacy item-esque, and I can get behind temple orders that produce heavily restrained items (Race/Class/Alignment/etc..).

So in worlds where they exist then maybe they turn up in dragon hoardes or Big Cities might have exclusive item shops, whatever, but the problem is in who makes them in the first place and that can't really be explained by saying they were made a long time ago as that just puts off the problem into the distant past where apparently Mages and Priests were happy to have armed lunatics running around with powerful enough magic to level city blocks:smallconfused: .

Rowanomicon
2007-12-16, 05:24 PM
MH, I agree with you.
That is why I don't think that one should be able to stroll into any old town and pick up +4 Keen Vorpal Scimitar.
Such things should be very rare as their creation is not a very likely occurrence.

Also I think that great smiths should be able to exist without being high level casters.

EDIT: *shuffles off to the Homebrew forum*

Kevka Palazzo
2007-12-16, 05:49 PM
Mmm...Artificers. In Eberron, this question is quite well taken care of: Artificers who don't make magic items are wasting their greatest class feature, the Craft Reserve!

This next question isn't really on-topic, but I want to know how people handle the immense number of masterwork and magic weapons in Eberron.

For example, because of the abundance of these better-than-average weapons, do people usually decrease the price? Since I'm sure the majority of Eberron's items come from magewrights, which can cast, surprise, magecraft, it seems that the quality of common items in Eberron would be significantly higher. The problem I have is that none of the books I've read have talked about it.

Any help here?

Rowanomicon
2007-12-16, 06:19 PM
In any setting with an abundance of magical items just lower the price.
The cost of materials should go down as well since supposedly there are enough materials to support such massive amounts of crafting without greatly diminishing the supply of materials.
Depending on how abundant magic item are (I'm not too familiar with Eberron) decrease the price by anything from 10-90%.

I was in a short lived high-magic campaign where all magic items were 1/10th the cost listed in the books. Needless to say this screws with balance, but we had fun.

Jerthanis
2007-12-16, 07:15 PM
Lone NPC Wizards in high towers populated with nothing but demons and golems have no reason to make powerful magic arms or armor... but there are plenty of roles NPC wizards can take where they will have reason to make powerful weapons.

Wizard PCs would take the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor more to keep their friends equipped than to boost their own power capacity, and that's the same reason NPC wizards would take that feat, or use it. Wizards will be connected with society in certain ways, either through a network of friends like an adventuring group, or with organizations with official memberships, bureaucracy and so forth. A wizard who is a mage in service of a powerful thieves' guild will be expected to make gloves of dex, boots/cloaks of elvenkind, and more importantly, short swords, daggers and the like, with deadly enchantments. A Wizard in service to the king would have similar tasks, though perhaps he is responsible for equipping the King's Bodyguard with armor and weapons to deter assassins.

Couple this reasonable level of societal obligation with the idea that magical gear never rusts or tarnishes, and are monstrously difficult to break, and the societal obligations of seven hundred years ago brings that +4 Keen Vorpal Scimitar, made for the execution of the most dangerous criminals in Al-Ajiranda, your setting's ripoff of the Middle East, 780 years ago during the invasion of the Half-Fiend army of thieves... or something.

A houserule I implement to support this idea is that Magical Gear can only be sundered by a weapon of equal or superior total +X value equivalent power, or similarly impressive forces.

BRC
2007-12-16, 07:32 PM
I personally have a theory that lots of low-level spellcasters acting in concert can simulate the effects of a high-level spellcaster, just to explain how items that less than one percent of the population can create, and even then it takes them several weeks of work, can be aquired.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-16, 07:59 PM
Couple this reasonable level of societal obligation with the idea that magical gear never rusts or tarnishes, and are monstrously difficult to break, and the societal obligations of seven hundred years ago brings that +4 Keen Vorpal Scimitar, made for the execution of the most dangerous criminals in Al-Ajiranda, your setting's ripoff of the Middle East, 780 years ago during the invasion of the Half-Fiend army of thieves... or something..

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
There was a reason to create such a weapon.
Few were created; I'm thinking one to a half-dozen.
However many there were got lost/destroyed/picked up by a powerful character.
The item(s) has a backstory and possibly someone who would like to get it back by the time it makes its way to the PCs.

EDIT: And the PCs wont be finding these things lying all over the place.

Kaelik
2007-12-16, 09:14 PM
Why would you sell your weapon to buy non-weapon items? You're presumably already getting the WBL to cover those.

The problem is your sword is part of WBL.

Which would you rather have?

A +5 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Thundering Sword.

Or

A +1 Sword, a +1 Fullplate, and 195,000gp to spend on boots of flying, Weapon improvements you actually want, Str enhancers, and other, much more useful things.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-12-16, 10:18 PM
What about making peoples arms and armour more central to the plot, I personaly hate having to keep track of XP so i ignore that as cost, I might make the items a bit more expensive cost wise but its not that bad. I'd say give a good back story to weapons, perhaps run by players. I like the idea of weapon enhancements being experientual, basicly agree with the players and work with them to make a realalistic world. I personaly have been home-brewing a world where people automaticly get small amount of magic, but each person gets one major and one minor ability, so a thundering sword is rare cause that requires lots of people to make, a flaming not so many but more things have fire protection. its a balance, work with players.

Jerthanis
2007-12-16, 10:41 PM
The problem is your sword is part of WBL.

Which would you rather have?

A +5 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Thundering Sword.

Or

A +1 Sword, a +1 Fullplate, and 195,000gp to spend on boots of flying, Weapon improvements you actually want, Str enhancers, and other, much more useful things.

I'd rather not have a DM that lets me buy whatever I find in the DMG, because I'll end up equipping every character with the same set of belts, amulets, boots and rings as I've equipped every one of my past five characters with, and I'll get mondo bored. Every character will feel the same.

If my character is gifted a locket as a boy, which he wears around his neck because his mother told him it would protect him, and when he traveled to a dank, sunken library, he might find that the amulet lights his way, and deflects blows from touching him... acting as an Amulet of Protection with a secondary effect of acting as a light source. Even though Light is often abstracted to some extent, and the amulet slot might be more useful as an amulet of Con or Natural armor, leaving a ring to pick up the protection effect, it's more interesting to have equipment which is vital to the character, and helps represent the character's personality... while still being a necessary and vital part of the character. This doesn't mean it HAS to be magical, but the idea of evolving magic items strikes me as one that could have some very interesting RP merit... and might break up the monotonous path of stacking a Cloak of Resistance with gloves of this, that and the other and boots of flight for the setup that provides the perfect setup to deal with the most situations the optimal way.

horseboy
2007-12-16, 10:44 PM
The problem is your sword is part of WBL.

Which would you rather have?

A +5 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Thundering Sword.

Or

A +1 Sword, a +1 Fullplate, and 195,000gp to spend on boots of flying, Weapon improvements you actually want, Str enhancers, and other, much more useful things.

Well, technically, because your armour is growing at similar rate of power. If, for example, you were constantly fighting against fire based enemies, your armour might begin to display the same powers. So, after, say the armour's 100 successful save vs. red dragon, it starts to develop fire protection itself. Yeah, remember I was talking about stuff level 15+, where the really weird, high powered stuff starts going on. You can still make the normal, low powered magic items normally.

Kaelik
2007-12-16, 10:50 PM
I'd rather not have a DM that lets me buy whatever I find in the DMG, because I'll end up equipping every character with the same set of belts, amulets, boots and rings as I've equipped every one of my past five characters with, and I'll get mondo bored. Every character will feel the same.

Then I guess you should make different types of characters instead of remaking Fighter Bob a thousand times.

I'm not saying, "Buy anything you want in the DMG." either. I'm just saying that a Kickass sword is never worth the same to me as a less kickass sword and a bunch of useful items (Cloak of many things/Boots of Flying/Immovable Rods)

I like items that give more options and less straight pluses. I think one of the biggest flaws of D&D is that +X items are integral to powerful characters. I hope they fix that about 4th edition, but I doubt they will, since it seems they have just made Wizards more reliant on +X instead of Fighter less.

Jerthanis
2007-12-16, 11:36 PM
Then I guess you should make different types of characters instead of remaking Fighter Bob a thousand times.

I'm not saying, "Buy anything you want in the DMG." either. I'm just saying that a Kickass sword is never worth the same to me as a less kickass sword and a bunch of useful items (Cloak of many things/Boots of Flying/Immovable Rods)

I like items that give more options and less straight pluses. I think one of the biggest flaws of D&D is that +X items are integral to powerful characters. I hope they fix that about 4th edition, but I doubt they will, since it seems they have just made Wizards more reliant on +X instead of Fighter less.

I'm not saying I always make Fighter Bob every single time, it's just that the way I equip Fighter Bob is not significantly different from Cleric Sue, Rogue Mack, or Swordsage Sally, given free access to the list of stuff in the DMG. I'm almost always packing a stat booster, a ring of protection, a Magicked up weapon, and magicked up armor, a cloak of resistance, an amulet of natural armor if my class doesn't need a wisdom booster... Boots of Flight if I'm a non-archer, or a Wizard. It's all so very similar and linear. It feels like I'm lowering my "Gold" Stat to give bonuses to my other stats here and there.

Then I get disposable items that help my class... Bull's Strength/Enlarge potions as a fighter, Cat's Grace potions as a Rogue, Cure Light Wounds wands as Clerics or Rogues... but those are the minority of my total equipment list.

thorgrim29
2007-12-17, 12:25 AM
In my setting, I have prisonners giving a part of their life energy (in-game representation of xp) to the ruler's wizards and artificers in exchange of parole or a reduction of the sentence. The wizards then equip the elite mercenary force that goes out to fight for the highest bidder and brings back money, fame, and powerfull friends. You can also make the apprentices make the boring stuff if you ignore the xp cost, or make a special place (or places) that are magical energy nexuses (nexi??) and allow you to craft for less, etc.....

Rowanomicon
2007-12-17, 08:56 AM
I'm not saying, "Buy anything you want in the DMG." either. I'm just saying that a Kickass sword is never worth the same to me as a less kickass sword and a bunch of useful items (Cloak of many things/Boots of Flying/Immovable Rods)

I like items that give more options and less straight pluses. I think one of the biggest flaws of D&D is that +X items are integral to powerful characters. I hope they fix that about 4th edition, but I doubt they will, since it seems they have just made Wizards more reliant on +X instead of Fighter less.

I don't understand why you need to have all your magical items be bland and flavourless. It seems to me that someone who likes more interesting powers than +X would also like some flavour and fluff for their magical items.

I definitely agree with you that having interesting and useful powers are make character's nicer to play and I'm not suggesting getting rid of all items.
I am merely suggesting adding a level of story and flavour to campaigns that is often missing.

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 09:49 AM
I'd rather not have a DM that lets me buy whatever I find in the DMG, because I'll end up equipping every character with the same set of belts, amulets, boots and rings as I've equipped every one of my past five characters with, and I'll get mondo bored. Every character will feel the same.


Exactly! Truth be told, sometimes, SOMETIMES, less choice equals more fun. I can't stand magi-mart settings for several reasons:

1.) The items don't hold any significance. It isn't that item I found in the cave after killing the troll, its that item I bought for 99 gold in the retail bin at the local shop.

2.) The more choices I have, the more times I can be wrong. If the DM opens up a whole slew of items to me, and I make "bad" choices at what I purchase, then I could be held to that.

3.) Magi-marts encourage optimizing.

Jayabalard
2007-12-17, 09:52 AM
letting your players take their weapons to some wizard and have them custom enchanted isn't very much different from having the Magic Mart with ten different varieties of magic sword hanging on the wall. No, that's a HUGE difference.

in one case there are not very many magical swords, and pretty much every single one of them is either in the hands of an individual using it, or lost to the world (in a Dragon's hoard, someone's tomb, etc); in the other there are many magical swords, and most of them are hanging in the wall of shops.

Ephraim
2007-12-17, 10:20 AM
Hey, that's fine -- my point is that you can't make your players (and, by extension, their characters) feel that way if they disagree no matter what you do.

This is absolutely true and it's very unfortunate. Players very seldom make decisions for their characters that generate dramatic tension. In my experience, players avoid dramatic tension as much as possible because it usually means making a decision with no strictly positive outcome.

If you view D&D as a challenge game, as many do, then this is only sensible game-playing. It is much rarer to find a team of players that will approach D&D as a storytelling game. Even when you do, it is commonplace for the players to make gamist decisions, albeit with narrativist justifications.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-17, 11:10 AM
@Mostlyharmless:

I think you are doing something with your analisys of motivations of casters s that's a bit unfair. You are expecting great arcane power (enough to make ubermagical items) to correlate with wisdom and common sense. Yes, it would be against the long term interest of a wizard to make magic greatswords in 99% of cases, even concerning his party members since he can cast GMW on their stuff. However, he may not realize that. He may be lazy and not want to cast GMW every day on the barbarian's greatsword and just make him a +3 weapon so he doesn't have to. He may be greedy and if offered enough bags of onyx and diamonds he'll take the risk of making it against his better judgment. He may make +4 breastplate just to get the fighter to stop complaining.

That said, I do agree that magical items should be rare. I don't let my players go magical item shopping in my game (with a few exceptions that are actually plot hooks). I tend to use the 'wish based economy' idea laid out in the dungeonomicon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5). This makes cheap magical items pretty common (I would expect everburning torches to be nearly omnipresent for example) but powerful ones very very rare. I think that makes sense even from the perspective of a wizard creating stuff. How many high level wizards are really going to be troubled by there being a bunch of +1 greatswords around? Most won't consider making them or having them around to be a threat. +4 on the other hand might be, so those are very hard to find.

bosssmiley
2007-12-17, 11:44 AM
"Where do magic items come from?"

Oh, this one's easy.
For items of less than 15,000gp value high level wizards bind Efreet and slap them around until they cough up the wish SLA. Wizzy then wishes for the item.
(after Keith & Frank's "Dungeonomicon")

For items of more than that value, each and every one was made with lost lore for a specific purpose at those weird magical sites that crop up so often in D&D games (planar rifts, celestial conjunctions, the Cauldron of Night, the Road of Fiends, Eberron manifest zones or Creation Forges, etc.). So each and every big ticket item in the game has a unique history, which generally goes...:

"It was made by _____ the _______ during the ancient _______ Empire. He bound the spirits of 100 devils/a just man/a dragon/his true love into the _______ to give it the power to fight the Dread Arglebargle Beast. After the defeat of the dread Arglebargle Beast the item became an heirloom of the empire until it was lost during a border war with raiding orcs/undead/sahuagin/goblins/etc."

Even for non-artefact/relic major item there should only ever be one-of-a-kind in a game. Unless Kwalish made more than one there's one Apparatus of Kwalish. Daern's Instant Fortress was Daern's own portable crib. The Staff of the Magi is named after a particular magus. The Holy Avenger takes the definitive article.

All IMO, YCWV of course.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-17, 12:52 PM
Even for non-artefact/relic major item there should only ever be one-of-a-kind in a game. Unless Kwalish made more than one there's one Apparatus of Kwalish. Daern's Instant Fortress was Daern's own portable crib. The Staff of the Magi is named after a particular magus. The Holy Avenger takes the definitive article.


Although we are mostly on the same page (we even linked/referred the same article), I have to disagree with this. With some items, like the Apparatus or the Instant Fortress I can see there being only one. However, only one pair of Gloves of Dex +4? Only one of each figurine of wonderous power? Only one portable hole? That's a bit too stringent imho. For the ones that are really useful, and not all that much over the cost limit to be made with wish, there will be people/creatures out there actually making them and if the PC's are bad enough to be part of that economy, or at least bad enough to be stabbing people who are and taking their stuff, then they may find more than one of some major or medium items floating around. After all, every solar is decked out with at +5 dancing greatswords so there must be several of those around.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-17, 01:19 PM
I think you are doing something with your analisys of motivations of casters s that's a bit unfair. You are expecting great arcane power (enough to make ubermagical items) to correlate with wisdom and common sense. Yes, it would be against the long term interest of a wizard to make magic greatswords in 99% of cases, even concerning his party members since he can cast GMW on their stuff. However, he may not realize that. He may be lazy and not want to cast GMW every day on the barbarian's greatsword and just make him a +3 weapon so he doesn't have to. He may be greedy and if offered enough bags of onyx and diamonds he'll take the risk of making it against his better judgment. He may make +4 breastplate just to get the fighter to stop complaining.

See this idea makes no sense. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to realise that putting together high powered stuff takes magical power out of the hands of those trained to use it and into the hands of those who'd do something dumbass with it, plus if they really can't grasp it I'm sure any world with adventurers in it has more than enough tales of over-muscled lunkheads doing things that devalue property for several days travel in all directions.

And casting one spell a day during your travels with your bodyguard is a LOT less work than putting one of these together, add in chain spell and you can outfit a party with appropriate level gear for the day with one spell instead of five years fulltime work.
Also, nice link.:smallsmile: thanks.

Ephraim
2007-12-17, 01:33 PM
Honestly? The answer requires a lot of handwaiving and suspension of disbelief. It's a plot device designed to add depth to the game without any appeal to common sense. If "money" isn't a sufficient reason, then you have to ask why anybody would choose to be an adventurer in the first place. It's a very hazardous way of life and the big reward is material wealth. Generally, D&D is chock full of people who do stupid things for the sake of money.

Telonius
2007-12-17, 01:37 PM
@Mostlyharmless:

I think you are doing something with your analisys of motivations of casters s that's a bit unfair. You are expecting great arcane power (enough to make ubermagical items) to correlate with wisdom and common sense. Yes, it would be against the long term interest of a wizard to make magic greatswords in 99% of cases, even concerning his party members since he can cast GMW on their stuff. However, he may not realize that. He may be lazy and not want to cast GMW every day on the barbarian's greatsword and just make him a +3 weapon so he doesn't have to. He may be greedy and if offered enough bags of onyx and diamonds he'll take the risk of making it against his better judgment. He may make +4 breastplate just to get the fighter to stop complaining.


... or, he might agree to make a +4 breastplate in exchange for something even more valuable. Stupid adventurers. :smallamused:

AKA_Bait
2007-12-17, 01:57 PM
See this idea makes no sense. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to realise that putting together high powered stuff takes magical power out of the hands of those trained to use it and into the hands of those who'd do something dumbass with it, plus if they really can't grasp it I'm sure any world with adventurers in it has more than enough tales of over-muscled lunkheads doing things that devalue property for several days travel in all directions.

You mean like the highly trained and intelegent scientists who know the possible reprocussions of making virulent biological agents and putting them in the hands of soldiers who have no where near the training to understand them? Or perhaps just the folks who make automatic weapons? If you don't feel threated by the creation, are the sort of person who doesn't really care what happens to others, and want some cash/gems/other items/nubile virgins then the questions is really 'why not make it?'



And casting one spell a day during your travels with your bodyguard is a LOT less work than putting one of these together, add in chain spell and you can outfit a party with appropriate level gear for the day with one spell instead of five years fulltime work.


Again with the rationality ;-). Some folks would get tired of the routine. Also, consider if they, you know, care about the person they are making it for and want them to have that protection even when they aren't around. Wizards sometimes have fighter children.


Honestly? The answer requires a lot of handwaiving and suspension of disbelief. It's a plot device designed to add depth to the game without any appeal to common sense. If "money" isn't a sufficient reason, then you have to ask why anybody would choose to be an adventurer in the first place. It's a very hazardous way of life and the big reward is material wealth. Generally, D&D is chock full of people who do stupid things for the sake of money.

Well, there are other reasons to adventure. Presumably a Paladin is out there to spread justice etc. and not specifically for the cash (not that he's going to turn down the cash). Wizards can have similar motives as well. But yes, the wise person who just wants to live is not going to be delving ancient ruins full of traps and things that would sprinkle them with nutmeg and devour them with a nice merlot.


... or, he might agree to make a +4 breastplate in exchange for something even more valuable. Stupid adventurers. :smallamused:

Yep. Smashy McAxerton may not have any use for that Ring of Wizardry IV he looted from the necromancers corpse (pun intended) but crafting him a +4 breastplate in exhange is certianly something a wizard might do.

Wizzardman
2007-12-17, 02:16 PM
Mmm...Artificers. In Eberron, this question is quite well taken care of: Artificers who don't make magic items are wasting their greatest class feature, the Craft Reserve!

This next question isn't really on-topic, but I want to know how people handle the immense number of masterwork and magic weapons in Eberron.

For example, because of the abundance of these better-than-average weapons, do people usually decrease the price? Since I'm sure the majority of Eberron's items come from magewrights, which can cast, surprise, magecraft, it seems that the quality of common items in Eberron would be significantly higher. The problem I have is that none of the books I've read have talked about it.

Any help here?

The prices don't change.

True, more people are making magic items, but there's also a lot more demand (what with more adventurers per capita, multitudes of adventurer shops across the continents who all want decent gear to sell, numerous armies that are being equipped/re-equipped with magic items, and somewhat fewer high level casters to make high-level magic items), so the prices stay about the same.

Burley
2007-12-17, 03:51 PM
Here's my take on the entire bit:

The game in-and-of itself was created for a single reason: To entertain the people playing. Even if there are items running around, what does it matter? The DM is the one controlling the world, no? I highly doubt a DM would spontaniously explode the multi-verse while the PCs are dungeon crawling because some NPC got an uber-item from another NPC. What would that accomplish?

If an item is put into the game, no matter how strong or weak, the DM did it for a reason (and, yes, ignorance is a reason) and it's the players' job to deal with the item how they see fit.

Now, I'm a player. I'm tried DMing and failed at it, horribly. As a player, I feel that I can safely say, on the topic of putting a backstory to an new item: "I don't care." And, most players just don't. The backstory will not change or affect the player's backstory in anyway. Heck, most players wouldn't even listen if the DM starts spouting background info. Everytime my DM starts into some story about "Silvered longsword handed down from the elves of Tira'fel, used in the epic battle of Bladdity'Blah to slay Like'I'Care..." I can guarantee there will be a few moments to reflect and somebody will say: "So...what does it do? Can I have it?"

Digressing back to my original point on the purpose of D&D: If a player wants something, the player's gonna ask for it. If the player wants it bad enough, the player's gonna make it happen. If the player doesn't get what they want, they're gonna stop having fun, take their dice and go home. (Telling your Mom that you don't play right is optional.)
A DM shouldn't...just shouldn't throw an item into a party's loot, if none of the PCs would use it. That's what money is for...if you don't want to give 'em something they can use, give 'em the cash for it, and call it even. They're gonna sell it, anyways.
(I once had a DM who would only give us weapons that we had no proficiencies in. +2 Human Bane Kama are sweet, yeah. But, not to a group of characters who can't use a kama. The weapon would be a hinderance, unless we were fighting human's...and then it'd break even.)

If you're worried about your PCs having uber-items, give them things they can use and won't want to sell. Selling items they won't use (background or no) is a PC groups best bet at getting a wand of Destroy All That Breathes. Giving a fighter a flaming greatsword is a good trade up from a +1 shortsword. He'll sell the short one, keep the great one, and use the money on a potion. Everybody's happy and the multiverse continues to be part of this balanced breakfast.

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 04:11 PM
Everytime my DM starts into some story about "Silvered longsword handed down from the elves of Tira'fel, used in the epic battle of Bladdity'Blah to slay Like'I'Care..." I can guarantee there will be a few moments to reflect and somebody will say: "So...what does it do? Can I have it?"


Sounds like a typical non-RP hack n slash group. Maybe your DM is expecting a higher level of RP than you're interested in?



Digressing back to my original point on the purpose of D&D: If a player wants something, the player's gonna ask for it. If the player wants it bad enough, the player's gonna make it happen. If the player doesn't get what they want, they're gonna stop having fun, take their dice and go home. (Telling your Mom that you don't play right is optional.)


Bleh. Sounds like those type of players need the DM As Babysitter type DM.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-17, 04:24 PM
Now, I'm a player. I'm tried DMing and failed at it, horribly. As a player, I feel that I can safely say, on the topic of putting a backstory to an new item: "I don't care." And, most players just don't. The backstory will not change or affect the player's backstory in anyway. Heck, most players wouldn't even listen if the DM starts spouting background info.

That is untrue and would be taken as an insult by quite a few players and DM's I know. Introducing a particular magical item, if the context is good, can both shed light on a characters backstory and advance the plot.


A DM shouldn't...just shouldn't throw an item into a party's loot, if none of the PCs would use it. That's what money is for...if you don't want to give 'em something they can use, give 'em the cash for it, and call it even. They're gonna sell it, anyways.

Why not? Monsters aren't going to be aquiring stuff for the express purpose of it being userful to your specific party once they show up and off them. Also, it depends upon what kind of world you are in if you even can sell it for anyhing near it's value. Sometimes giving a group a really good item no one can use inspires someone in the group to become proficent with it and thus creates interesting opportunities for character development.


If you're worried about your PCs having uber-items, give them things they can use and won't want to sell. Selling items they won't use (background or no) is a PC groups best bet at getting a wand of Destroy All That Breathes.

Only if you make the 'wand of destroy' all that breathes available for purchase and make it easy to sell items. I, for example, do neither.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-17, 07:10 PM
When I DM (which, admittedly, I have not very much) I do not tailor my treasures to what will be most useful to the PCs.
If the band of Goblins just raided an Elven town they will have a lot of Elven equipment (as well as the usual money and Goblin equipment) and perhaps some random things.

I do, however, try to work with my players (and when I play I try to work with my DM) so if I really want my Fighter to have a flaming sword (for flavour purposes) I will tell my DM and hope that he works it in somehow because I know that it wont break his game to give me a flaming sword.

As for players who don't care about story, characterisation, and RP and only play D&D as a game to get higher numbers and powerful tricks... I don't care for them.
I don't mind building your character to be effective; I like my characters to be effective, but blatant optimization replacing role-playing is not my style of D&D.
If you and your group like to play that way the that's your deal and al power to you, but that's not how I RP.

Also if players are going to be leaving the table in a tantrum because they aren't getting the magic item that lets then go super-saiyan (I hope I spelled that wrong) and destroy the world then they aren't the people I want in my group anyway (either as a player or as a DM).

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 07:48 PM
Well step one is to take Ye Olde Magic Shope out of every town. Buying and selling magical items should be constricted to very low power level items. Even then it's a pretty risky business dealing with people who have that kind of money to throw around.

Step two is to add a backstory to every high power level magic item that you give to the PCs in dragon-hordes and stuff. Such things should be plot related and very important to the PCs. Good examples of this can be found in Tolkien:

1) Sting, it is a very important thing to Bilbo and Frodo and is not later cast aside for a new sword with a higher number.

2) The Ring (and all Rings), it is a powerful item and the creator is doing his best to keep track of it and get it back.

3) Merry's anti-Angmar blade from the barrow downs, it is an important plot-device that allowed The Witch King to be killed.

My game has lots of magic items, but all have backstories. ALso in my world, if an item is used to do something epic, it can become magical on its own. For example, a town was attacked by a band of orcs, and the local barkeep grabbed a pair of newly made longswords, still hot from the smithy and killed three. Now those long swords are plus 1 longswords tha do fire damage
from,
EE

Kompera
2007-12-17, 09:22 PM
The problem is your sword is part of WBL.

Which would you rather have?

A +5 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Thundering Sword.

Or

A +1 Sword, a +1 Fullplate, and 195,000gp to spend on boots of flying, Weapon improvements you actually want, Str enhancers, and other, much more useful things.
I didn't know there was any kind of realistic choice involved on the part of the players. The GM places the treasure, the GM runs the NPCs. Therefore, even under RAW WBL, the players get what the GM gives them. As long as the total value adds up right, there can be no cries of "House rules! No fair!" And I've never run in a game where WBL was adhered to, and I've got no complaints about that. Strict WBL creates Monty Haul characters and breaks the game.


That's the point. Magic items are purchased tools. They aren't sentimental. For balance reasons you have WBL. For that you need several magic items. You have a party of four people. If every one of those items has a backstory then you are looking at 30 independent stories per adventuring group.

But the point is that magic items are tools. That's all. And you pay a Wizard/Cleric/Artificer to make you a tool. Then you use it.

Magic items are not simply purchased tools. And they can indeed have sentimental or role playing value. They are treasures given out by the GM. And he may not give you the specific items you want, but there's nothing wrong with that. Again, the GM runs the NPCs. The GM decides if there is a high enough magic item crafter in the last podunk village the adventurers saved to craft the item the player wants. And he sets the pace of the adventure by dropping plot hooks. If the player wants to travel to some larger city so he can swap his +8 equivalent sword for a +2 sword and a handful of possibly game breaking utility items, it's completely up to the GM to decide if this is at all possible given the framework of the world he has created. And the other players may also object to a single player derailing their plans to further their plot lines for what may be seen as either a fools errand ("Gee, I sure hope I can find a magic shop with the exact items I want for sale") or simply selfish self indulgence.


I'm not saying, "Buy anything you want in the DMG." either. I'm just saying that a Kickass sword is never worth the same to me as a less kickass sword and a bunch of useful items (Cloak of many things/Boots of Flying/Immovable Rods)
Kinda looks to me like you are indeed saying "Buy anything you want in the DMG."

Kaelik
2007-12-17, 10:25 PM
I didn't know there was any kind of realistic choice involved on the part of the players. The GM places the treasure, the GM runs the NPCs. Therefore, even under RAW WBL, the players get what the GM gives them. As long as the total value adds up right, there can be no cries of "House rules! No fair!" And I've never run in a game where WBL was adhered to, and I've got no complaints about that. Strict WBL creates Monty Haul characters and breaks the game.

Magic items are not simply purchased tools. And they can indeed have sentimental or role playing value. They are treasures given out by the GM. And he may not give you the specific items you want, but there's nothing wrong with that. Again, the GM runs the NPCs. The GM decides if there is a high enough magic item crafter in the last podunk village the adventurers saved to craft the item the player wants. And he sets the pace of the adventure by dropping plot hooks. If the player wants to travel to some larger city so he can swap his +8 equivalent sword for a +2 sword and a handful of possibly game breaking utility items, it's completely up to the GM to decide if this is at all possible given the framework of the world he has created. And the other players may also object to a single player derailing their plans to further their plot lines for what may be seen as either a fools errand ("Gee, I sure hope I can find a magic shop with the exact items I want for sale") or simply selfish self indulgence.

Kinda looks to me like you are indeed saying "Buy anything you want in the DMG."

1) The GM places the treasure. Which is why if he places a +5 Vorpal Sword I'm going to sell it to get something I actually want.

2) I'm not saying buy anything you want in the DMG. I'm saying sell the +10 equivalent sword and buy other things because a +10 equivalent sword is
a) not worth it's cost if you have nothing else
b) not all that great
c) shouldn't be found and used by the PCs until a much later level then the level where it makes up such a significant fraction of their WBL. Since it makes every fight incredibly easy, or leaves the person holding it completely useless.

3) I never said, "Buy exactly what you want and search for the specific shop that sells everything you want." I said, "Sell the +10 Sword of Crappy Bitchitude for a +2 Sword and an upgrade on your Armor and some utility items." And "potentially gamebreaking utility items?" What game are you even playing? Those items that are incredibly useful are necessary to make thte fighter useful at all in some situations. Most of them aren't that powerful, but are instead fun.

Kompera
2007-12-18, 12:12 AM
1) The GM places the treasure. Which is why if he places a +5 Vorpal Sword I'm going to sell it to get something I actually want.

2) I'm not saying buy anything you want in the DMG. I'm saying sell the +10 equivalent sword and buy other things because a +10 equivalent sword is
a) not worth it's cost if you have nothing else
b) not all that great
c) shouldn't be found and used by the PCs until a much later level then the level where it makes up such a significant fraction of their WBL. Since it makes every fight incredibly easy, or leaves the person holding it completely useless.

3) I never said, "Buy exactly what you want and search for the specific shop that sells everything you want." I said, "Sell the +10 Sword of Crappy Bitchitude for a +2 Sword and an upgrade on your Armor and some utility items." And "potentially gamebreaking utility items?" What game are you even playing? Those items that are incredibly useful are necessary to make thte fighter useful at all in some situations. Most of them aren't that powerful, but are instead fun.

If you sell your +5 Vorpal sword, you get (if I read the srd on magic weapons correctly) 200,000 Gold. That might be "something you actually want", or it may not. But that's what you get. Your ability to use that 200,000 gold to purchase other items is completely under the control of the GM. I don't see any part of RAW which requires that magic items be available at every swap meet.

2 a,b) I must be missing how selling the item you don't want and buying items you do want is very different from having all the items from the DMG available for purchase if you've got the money to pay for them... What did your scenario exclude? Nothing, either expressly or implied. "I'm going to sell it to get something I actually want" seems very broad.
c) A bit of a straw man here. If the GM placed it the assumption should be that it's an appropriate item for the characters who win it from whatever guards it, and not that it either breaks the game by making "every fight incredibly easy", or breaks the game by leaving "the person holding it completely useless."

3) The items were not specified, and there are plenty which are game breaking. So the game I'm playing is D&D v3.5.

Khanderas
2007-12-18, 09:50 AM
Most if not all useful items are made either
- To benefit some caster a long long time ago (much like you make your fighter friend a +2 keep bastard sword between campains to save half of the money to buy one). The benefit does not mean it has to be a caster item, it could very well be for his bodyguard to better protect the caster with.

- As payment. A king or similar powerful political figure either buys the creating of item(s). Paid in money, goods or favors. Or the caster owes the king for other reasons (part of being court wizard, out of thanks for aid provided, to cement an agreement or one of the other 1001 reasons).


Now for items that are silly, such as oh the bag of tricks or cursed.
- Failure to make a great item. Perhaps the Unicorn horn powder was tainted, or just a ground up femur bone from a human skeleton. Perhaps the casting process was interrupted (attack, caster expires from old age)

- Caster is simply insane. Senility perhaps or the strain of telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.

- Laws of magic changed slightly over the centuries (Supposedly the Real World inverts its own magnetic field every lotsof years, for example). Time of troubles, many settings switch from 2 edition to 3rd edtion. and so on.

- The item is breaking down. Pure age, imperfect creation, acid damage, disjunced a few too many times (made the saves sure, but something still broke, only subtly and gradually) or that the Intelligent Sword has spent 2000 years in troll-dung.


Now anything that would not fit in there ? Don't think there is (but yeah insanity covers alot).

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 10:34 AM
c) A bit of a straw man here. If the GM placed it the assumption should be that it's an appropriate item for the characters who win it from whatever guards it, and not that it either breaks the game by making "every fight incredibly easy", or breaks the game by leaving "the person holding it completely useless."


I would actually go farther than this. Frankly, unless your DM is very inexperienced or doesn't plan worth a darn, then that +5 Vorpal sword you just got was probably there for a reason. If you run off and sell it, you may screw yourself in the long run.

This also implies that you can sell it. Not too many folks have 200k lying about. You have a better shot of trying to barter it, but really, you run into a similar problem. A magical item merchant, even some theoretical 'I have everything you want' one, wouldn't want to trade off a whole section of his stock for one item unless he knew in advance he could move it right away. One +5 Vorpal Sword is much harder to sell than a whole bunch of cheaper magical items simply because there are fewer people who can afford to buy it .

Konig
2007-12-18, 11:30 AM
I generally find it pretty nonsensical as well. There was a dragon magazine article on this a good while back (2nd edition) where they discussed other sources of magic items. Consider:
A common weapon is used as an improvised weapon to kill a horrendously powerful enemy. The blood of that enemy (or the energies released when he dies) empower the weapon.
A knight uses his father's ordinary lance to win a jousting tournament, and it doesn't break. After he wins more tournaments, he notices it feels lighter and seems to strike harder. He investigates, and finds it was empowered by his victories and became a +1 weapon. (This is also a good way to reward players who stick to 'family heirlooms')
Remember also that there's creatures/powers that create magic items that aren't casters. A devout champion of Corellon might be blessed with a keen +2 scimitar before a pivotal battle against an orcish warhost. An ancient dragon might seek to make some magic items on his own for some draconic aesthetic, decorating his hoard. A pit fiend might use a Wish to create a tasty little bribe for someone.
You can also figure some stuff out in the context of the world: Perhaps the adventurer's guild is heavily involved in the magic item trade, and deals with a lot of trade-ins. As people improve their selection, the guild buys the items they aren't using.
The adventurer's guild might have rules for when someone dies - if someone dies in action, surviving groupmates have to return any enhanced or magical equipment to the adventurer's guild. (This keeps party deaths from inflating the group coffers, and in setting terms, ensures that members of the adventurer's guilds aren't offed for an extra penny).
Wizard Guilds/Academies might have students produce magic items as a regular part of passing Enchantment 101. Let's say the instructors can walk students through the process of crafting the items (so they don't all necessarily need the item crafting proficiencies/feats). The school produces various low level items, a handful of mid level items and then a few really high level items (Like an honors thesis) on a yearly basis. These items are taken by the school for grading/evaluation, then traditionally sold to help cover tuition & school fees. Since magic weapons & armor tend to sell better, they tend to be what's created.

horseboy
2007-12-19, 02:45 AM
Now for items that are silly, such as oh the bag of tricks
I actually made one of those once. I got tired of casting SNA all the time, so made something that did it for me.


There's also experimenting and error. You know, you mean to make a +3, but the impurity of the metal soaks up the enchantment and reacts in an unforeseen way. Now suddenly we've got a super weapon on the loose. You don't see too many of these stories. Hmm....

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-12-19, 03:28 AM
What it all comes down to is this: are you playing a game?

D&D is designed to be a game. Certain things don't make sense in terms of story if you're playing by the DMG rules. That means that magic items might not have the same significance they have in Tolkien, although there's just as much fantasy out there with magic items by the boatload.

The above is a statement of fact. Personal opinion follows.

At the point where anyone says "Rawr too many magic items," my response is "go play a different system." D&D is meant, as written, to be a high-magic, high-powered, heroic system. It's, essentially, fantasy pulp. Probably the best proof of that is the bias in the game towards good: you're supposed to be a group of goodly heroes taking on evil.

The game is written with a good deal of magic in mind; wealth-by-level isn't just an evaluation of how high a character's stat should be, it's a measure of your capability of defeating certain monsters. It says itself that you'll never need an item too expensive for you to defeat a monster of your CR; the implication is that at higher CRs, you need items to defeat monsters.

Also, and this is really important: it's a game. Sure, you tell a story through it, but if you're rolling dice you're playing. That means that there's a game system, which means that the game designers had ideas in mind while making it. (I hope.) As mentioned above, wealth-by-level is one of them; pretty much free access to magic items is another. The most expensive item found in a community is determined by the GP limit of that community type multiplied by the total poplulation.

To give an example, the minimum population for a metropolis is 25,001 and the metropolis GP limit is 100,000. That means that you can't find any items more expensive than two billion, five hundred million, and one hundred thousand (2,500,100,000) GP. To give you some idea, the most expensive wondrous item in the Epic Level Handbook weighs in at 4.5 million GP.

So in conclusion, the system is balanced around the idea of high-magic/high-power. If you want weak characters and diceless gaming, play something else.

Talic
2007-12-19, 03:45 AM
Not to mention this means that no one can get the magical effects they want. So they keep selling their +8 equivalent weapons to buy things they actually want like Str enhancers and teleportation boots.

Perhaps they Bind on Equip?

Or you have to do something to unlock that power?
Oh wait, that was Weapons of Legacy.


EDIT:
On a side note, players don't need to know that the great mage Hubert the Unready made this Vorpal Salad Fork +2 for his personal chef for saving his life when a band of evil custard pies attacked his gingerbread tower (Hubert always did practice his construction on an empty stomach).

They just want to fork some monster's head off. Let them.

RE EDIT:

I pity the foo.

Tormsskull
2007-12-19, 07:17 AM
So in conclusion, the system is balanced around the idea of high-magic/high-power. If you want weak characters and diceless gaming, play something else.

Or, have a DM who is well-versed in the system that knows how to tweak it to the group's liking.

Advantages to this?

1.) Its still the D&D system.

2.) You don't have to buy more books.

3.) More people are familiar with D&D that other systems.


I don't understand why people are so fearful of making changes to the system. If you aren't comfortable in your DMing skill to be able to make changes to the mechanics, then I suppose I understand, but trial and error is a great way to get better at it.

For example, I try to de-magic a lot of the monsters in the game. Why? Because I try to portray a low-magic world, I don't like the idea of 50,000 different variations of creatures running around all with their own magical abilities.

I completely remove all forms of planar travel. Why? Because the regular world is so huge, you'll never run out of adventures there. You might find items that transport you into another world, for example, but these are incredibly rare. The idea of people regularly coming and going from other planes seems silly to me.

I reduce the amount of NPC spellcaster down to a small fraction that the DMG suggests. Why? Because if you follow the logical conclusions that having a ton of spellcasters would result in, your world would end up being nonsensical.

Vilehelm
2007-12-19, 11:25 AM
D&D 3.x pretty much required a Monty Haul approach, with it's entire balancing factor being the WBL.

I ditched it, I balance my game with subtle houserules and RP restraints, which luckily my players accept and support. I also enjoy having a group that, while still expecting to advance and gain items, showed up to have a good time exploring my world and my stories.

This thread reminds me of NWN's failings, where you would find a +12 greatsword with the following description:

"This weapon has a bonus to attack and damage but does not bear the hallmark of any particular maker."

This disgusted me (and put me off NWN for a good while) until I noticed that D&D 3.x is set up to be played like this.

Luckily rules can be changed, and there are more players who think like me. In my campaign, magic items are rare, valued, and it will be a major quest should a PC wish to craft a magic item.

Perhaps not all players would enjoy this. To each his/her own. I have a good gaming group who does.

horseboy
2007-12-19, 11:56 AM
Oh wait, that was Weapons of Legacy.Or when done right, Earthdawn. :smallcool:



RE EDIT:

I pity the foo.
I once had a DM that had a store in every town "Hung Wo's House of Foo and ______" The blank was always what we were looking to buy.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-19, 06:55 PM
They just want to fork some monster's head off.
Quoted for hilarity.

Anyway, I like to work with my players to create the game that they want to play and I want to DM (I'm a firm believer that D&D should be fun for the DM too).
I certainly never said that I don't ever give my players powerful magical items or that I deprive them of... well, anything.

I simply don't throw magic around (in most settings) like it's nothing. I certainly don't let the players buy whatever they want from any commoner and his dog.

Also, just because something is in the RAW doesn't mean it's the purpose of the game. I'm pretty sure that no one designed the game with Pun-Pun (yes, I just mentioned Pun-Pun) in mind.

Along that same vein, yes there is a system for statting out PCs and NPCs, but it's called a ROLE PLAYING Game for a reason. 'Nuff said. That said, if you don't want to role play no is forcing you.