How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?

[CTurbo]

My teenage daughter wants to run a 1 off combat exercise using our group's PCs against an adult red dragon. No story or RP, just one big fight. We did this last week and slaughtered it easily because she didn't understand Legendary Resistance or Legendary Actions and she also wasn't very mobile with it. Now that I've fully explained things to her on it's features and also how it should behave ie flying out of reach most of the time, she wants to run it again. I told her that our group shouldn't stand a chance against an adult dragon which I think it why she wants to do this to kill us all haha.

Our party is five 9th level characters, and we didn't use her Bard the first time. This next time, I'm going to play her Bard and my Barb, and I think we'll be able to add one more character to the mix for a total of 6 PCs. We'll also have prep time going in to combat so Inspiring Leader, Bless, Haste, and whatever else.

Do we stand a chance with six 9th level characters?

Of course this is just for fun and nothing is at stake. If we all die, we'll all just laugh about it.

[Skrum]

Depends on the optimization of course, but I would anticipate 4 level 9 characters being able to handle an adult red dragon. Assuming the fight isn't taking place on a flat featureless plane where the dragon has infinite room and time to just fly away (and even then...)

6 characters should be able to take it down without much issue.

[J-H]

Four should be able to kill it. Six will handle it easily.
Some variance exists for party composition and itemization. When I did Castle Dracula, a reskinned adult gold dragon with 200+HP got brought down in about 1.5 rounds by 6 PCs who were around level 9 or 10. Misty stepping smiting Paladin, GWM Reckless Zealot barbarian, and a few critical hits.
If they don't have a paladin and a bunch of them fail saves against the breath weapon and fear effects, it'll be substantially harder.

[GeneralVryth]

I also wouldn't be surprised if the PCs win. Dragons are extremely reliant on their breath, and can get outclassed if it's not properly used. As an example just this past weekend for some fun I ran a scenario where a couple of friends each controlled a Young Dragon (Blue and Silver) against a village of Hobgolins and Orcs and a Chain Devil leader ~32 opponents in total, half just being the CR 1/2 Hobgolins and Orcs, with a mix of leadership from Half-Ogres up to a Hobgoblin Warlord. The Dragons ultimately got shredded once they stood and right instead of using hit and runs with cover. Attacks add up and Dragons aren't super resilient.

[Amnestic]

It's probably going to be pretty close if the dragon plays it hit+run to let its breath recharge depending on the long range options in the party. If it plays a bit more 'fairly' and stays within a ~80ft range of the party, it'll probably get brought down without too much trouble.

[KorvinStarmast]

We did it with six. Oh, the dragon showed up after we were fully engaged with a bunch of ogres and a fire giant or two.

[GeneralVryth]

Since most of our answers are the party can win. If the goal is to have the Dragon win (or just make it really hard), break out the Dragon spellcasting rules.

An Adult Red can cast up to level 5 spells. Invisibility, Mirror Image, Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility all come to mind. I can easily imagine the Red sneaking up on a group of adventurers in its territory with invisibility on. It opens with a surprise Wall of Fire to corral its prey. In the first real round of combat it separates the strong from the weak with a good old fashioned Fire Breath. Next round it picks a tasty target, tenderizes it with a claw attack, grapples it with a second, flies it through the Wall of Fire to get a little extra searing on the tenderized meat, and then bites down to try out its meal.

You get the idea...

[JLandan]

Without spells, the biggest problem for the party is going to be the Frightful Presence. If they have some way to mitigate the fear, 5 9th level wins. If not it's even-steven.

Adding in spells, you're going to need, I would say... 2 more PCs.

[Skrum]

I mean, I don't know the level of optimization of this party, but at the table I play at, all very experienced players? I would not only give the dragon spells, I would let the dragon attack or breath, and cast a spell every turn, and give it legendary actions (including the ability to cast a spell off-turn). The dragon is working 6 v 1. If it doesn't enough actions to roughly equal how many actions the players are getting, it's gonna get wrecked.

[Mastikator]

Depends on the optimization of course, but I would anticipate 4 level 9 characters being able to handle an adult red dragon. Assuming the fight isn't taking place on a flat featureless plane where the dragon has infinite room and time to just fly away (and even then...)

6 characters should be able to take it down without much issue.

TBH even 2 sharpshooter builds would dominate the dragon in a big white room. The adult red dragon's max speed (assuming dash and wing attack) is 200 feet per round. It would need to be 60 feet above the party to breath them all, then move 120 during the round, putting it at 180 feet above the party. Then it would take 3 rounds to move out of range of sharpshooters with longbows. Then 3 more to get within range of breath.

The optimal situation, really- is for the dragon is that the party is in a 50 feet deep ravine where the dragon can flyby fire breath and get cover.

[CTurbo]

The party is really optimized with higher than normal stats. 3 of the players are 11, 13, and 14, but they know their characters well and how to use them.

I feel like I'd I controlled an adult dragon of any color against my party I'd destroy them easily. As strong as our party is, we really aren't built for ranged combat.

My Barbarian/Sorcerer only has hand axes as his ranged attack.
The Battlemaster Str Fighter only has javelins.
The Swashbuckler and Bard have either hand or light crossbows.
The Pryo Sorcerer has NO weapons, and is loaded down with fire damage spells so all sorcery points will be spent on Transmute spell to do any damage at all.
The Bard has some good spells, but has to make it through the legendary resistance to land any of them.

The Bard, Sorcerer, and Swashbuckler have HP in the 70s and adult red dragon's breath weapon averages 63 on a hit. Yeah the Rogue and Sorcerer(and Barb) are basically resistant, but I think the Bard will go down quickly. That's why I think Greater Invisibility may be the best option for concentration. The Sorcerer can twin Haste. My Barb can cast Jump which may help(we are NOT following the no spells while raging rule BTW, but he can't control his spells very well either). The Bard can maybe Enlarge my Barb and I can try to grapple the dragon. I have 20Str, Advantage AND Expertise in Athletics, but adult red dragons have 27Str.

The potential 6th character would likely be optimized for fighting a dragon though.

We also have a retired OP Reborn/Revenant Tempest Cleric retooled for Cold and Necrotic damage instead of Lightning and Thunder with an all new spell list to acomodate. We'd probably win with this character playing.

[kingcheesepants]

The party is really optimized with higher than normal stats.

My Barbarian/Sorcerer only has hand axes as his ranged attack.
The Battlemaster Str Fighter only has javelins.
The Swashbuckler and Bard have either hand or light crossbows.
The Pryo Sorcerer has NO weapons, and is loaded down with fire damage spells so all sorcery points will be spent on Transmute spell to do any damage at all.
The Bard has some good spells, but has to make it through the legendary resistance to land any of them.

I think you mean something very different by optimized than what I would mean. I would expect a team with such poor ranged options to do badly against a wide array of ranged or flying threats, especially if terrain is utilized.

A Sorcerer focused on fire damage (one of the most commonly resisted and immune types) is particularly egregious, but having a Fighter with only melee weapons and javelins and a Bard who apparently doesn't have spells that bypass LR, it's hard to see in what respect this is an optimized group. Maybe consider changing out some of your spell choices and getting something like an Oversized Longbow for the fighter and some Bracers of Archery for the Rouge. That will at least let you fight as a level 9 group is expected to.

[KorvinStarmast]

. I would expect a team with such poor ranged options to do badly against a wide array of ranged or flying threats, especially if terrain is utilized.
Our Valor bard DD'd onto the back of the dragon with the Fighter. The Fighter did melee as the dragon took some pains to buck them off. (Which he eventually did).

[Aimeryan]

With that many casters you should blow through LR quickly. Then you have spells that drop flying creatures prone, like Web, Earthbind, Hypnotic Pattern, etc. Once grounded and out of LR its easy to pick off.

[Selion]

IMHO the fight of a single powerful creature against a party of 5-6 players is unbalanced whatever are the results. Its either:
-The dragon one shot some pcs with aoe dmg and the remaining pcs loose their actions to help the fallen ones
- players succeed in burning all their actions on the dragon, killing it in a couple or rounds
-the dragon hinders players actions with crowd control with frightful presence and spells, this could be the more balanced scenario
- players have means to defend against aoe threats (absorb energy, paladin aura) and it becomes a fight of attrition, I'd give it to players, because they may recover hps, the dragon can't

It's not that the dragon is not strong enough, it's the 5v1 scenario which is volatile. 5th edition is better then 3.x in this case, with legendary actions/resistamces, but the issue is still there, although mitigated

[KorvinStarmast]

IMHO the fight of a single powerful creature against a party of 5-6 players is unbalanced whatever are the results. Its either:
-The dragon one shot some pcs with aoe dmg and the remaining pcs loose their actions to help the fallen ones
- players succeed in burning all their actions on the dragon, killing it in a couple or rounds
-the dragon hinders players actions with crowd control with frightful presence and spells, this could be the more balanced scenario
- players have means to defend against aoe threats (absorb energy, paladin aura) and it becomes a fight of attrition, I'd give it to players, because they may recover hps, the dragon can't

It's not that the dragon is not strong enough, it's the 5v1 scenario which is volatile. 5th edition is better then 3.x in this case, with legendary actions/resistamces, but the issue is still there, although mitigated I've watched frightful presence break up more than one party.
In one of our battles with an adult dragon (after two or three other fights) four of us were level 11; this was in the campaign where my bard had taken Heroes' Feast. We were immune to being frightened and had advantage on Wisdom saves.
:smallbiggrin: We handled it reasonably well. (Even though my bard nearly went down under the breath weapon)

[Unoriginal]

The damage for the Adult Red Dragon's breath is 18d6, with the average listed as 63 damages.

That's a significant amount, against the HPs of a lvl 9 character.

I would say that 6 lvl 9 characters could beat the dragon, but that it'll be a tough fight with likely a couple deaths unless you get a lot of anti-red-dragon measures.

[Souhiro]

Don't forget that in 5e, there's Legendary Actions and Lair Actions.

In fact, everytime I can, any character of mine devises a spell or a magic weapong depriving enemies of legendary actions.

[HoboKnight]

Lvl 9 is pretty strong, but adult red is a creature with decades of experience and should be run that way.

Here is how I would run it:
1. Flies in, exhales breath on as many opponents as possible. Remains in air.
Saves his LA and if dropped to the ground, uses Legendary action Wing attack at the end of opponents turn, to get flying again. Remaining in air is crucial. Saves vs effects, uses Legendary resistance if Save is unsucesful. Spends remaining LA if possible.

2. Does breath recharge? If yes -> breath again from the air.
If not:
Does Multiattack on a single, least armored target with Frightning presence. This is second AOE, goal is to frighten as many opponents as possible. Multiattack, but exchange attacks for grapple and fly up with grappled target. Use LA Wing attack to get even higher. Thwacks the grappled target during flying up. (Tail attack, Multiattack). If target gets out of grapple: drop for 1d6 dmg per 10 ft and prone.

3. Does breath recharge? If yes -> breath again from the air.
If not:
Does Multiattack on a single, least armored target with Frightning presence, grappleys, flys up with the target.

Rinse and repeat.

Also, with such a creature it makes sense it has a few magic items on it to further buff it.

[CTurbo]

We did not get a chance to run this exercise, but I'm going to at some point now just to satisfy my curiosity. I really don't think my party of five 9th level characters can beat an adult red dragon in a fight where it's run properly. I don't doubt that a party of five 9th level character CAN kill a red dragon though depending on party makeup.

My particular party isn't the best equipped to deal with dangerous ranged enemies. We really haven't faced that many ranged enemies in our travels so far.

The Bard and Sorcerer have many ranged options, and the Swashbuckler isn't terrible with a crossbow, and as a Protector Aasimar, can fly once a day.
The Fighter has a 16 Dex and wouldn't be terrible with a longbow which he could and should get at the next town.
My Barb usually throws rocks when necessary and does know Chaos Bolt and Mind Sliver although he has never used either so far. I tend to only use spells he can cast on accident or at the very least not fully understanding what he just did, and I haven't figured out how to implement those spells yet.

[Hael]

As usual with these sorts of tasks, the devil is in the detail. How much scouting/divination is available? What is the geometry of the lair and lair actions available to it. Can the party generate surprise or at least get close enough to the dragon to catch it on the first turn. Are there other threats. What sorts of magic items does the party have available to it. Etc etc

Off the top of my head the fight itself doesn’t seem that tough for a well geared prebuilt and optimized party (4 lvl 9s is more then enough in the right circumstances), the hard part is preventing the dragon from simply running away once it is aware.

Usually that means you need some sort of dedicated grappler that can run down the dragon and down it on the first turn. So potentially lots of movement required (Eg phantom steeds/mounts etc), it will require the ability to fly and grapple a huge (strong) creature as well as winning first turn initiative. Thats annoying, but not that hard if we were allowed to build a character in the whiteroom and scout/prepare beforehand as grapple checks can become quite ridiculous (and we can procur ways to give many rerolls to that check)

As for the statblock itself, certain classes are going to do very well here. Twilight clerics will severly restrict the frightened gaze condition for instance. Lots of ways to procur resistance to fire and/or immunities (absorb elements for instance). Lots of ways to block the cone attack (various wall spells etc). Lots of ways to nova damage pretty hard to take it down pretty quickly. You could also probably restrain it with overlapping walls of force depending on the geometry of the room (if you could force it into a corner for instance).

[CTurbo]

I was bored earlier and ran this exercise twice all by myself as I have all the character sheets here, and I had a hand in creating all but one of them so I'm pretty familiar with them all.

I rolled a D6 to determine which chromatic dragon we were fighting..... 6=red, 5=blue, 4=green, 3=black, 2=white, 1=reroll and it ended up being an adult green dragon.


The first combat started off 40ft apart with the dragon on the ground. I allowed prebuffs for the party so the Swashbuckler casted Bless(on Sorc, Fighter, and herself), the Sorcerer hasted the Fighter and Barb, and the Bard Enlarged the Barb and also used Inspiring Leader. When I rolled initiative for everybody and the dragon went last. The Swashbuckler did her Protector Aasimar transformation and dashed/flew away. My large Barb went next and ran up and successfully grappled the dragon sealing it's fate. The hasted/blessed Fighter ran up and hit the dragon with 5 out of 6 attacks with a +1 Longsword, the blessed Sorc hit it with 2 Firebolts, and the Bard Vicious Mocked it all before it could have a turn. It was reasonably successful with it Frightening Presence getting the Fighter, Bard, and Sorc and also hit those 3 with it's breath weapon. The only 2 in melee range were the fighter and barb which is it focused all it's attacks on. My Barb is hilariously resilient getting hit several times with claw attacks, but always taking half damage and no damage on one using Stone's Endurance. The Sorc hit hard with Booming Blade before flying away again. After 6 more attacks from the melee guys and a repeat of round 1 from the Bard and Sorc, it was already hurting bad by the end of round 2 and still couldn't move. It also didn't recharge it's breath weapon. On it's second turn, I debated about would it spend it's attack trying to break the grapple of attack and decided that there was a slightly higher chance of it attempting to break the grapple so I gave it a 60% of trying to break grapple and a 40% chance of just attacking more. I rolled a % die and ended up attacking more. This time the Swashbuckler failed the save to be frightened, but still hit with a light crossbow attack even with disadvantage, and after the 3 punches to the face from the Barb, it only had 20hp left. The fighter finished it off. Throughout combat it used all it's legendary actions attacking the Fighter and Barb.

I wiped the page clean and reran it, but this time the dragon had +49 more HP, and was 40ft away but also 40ft in the air, and when I rolled Int again, the dragon went before the Bard and Sorc. Party had same buffs as before.
The swashbuckler always goes first and did the same exact first round. This time the Barb couldn't reach the dragon so he used Chaos Bolt and hit for wimpy damage. The blessed/hasted fighter hit it with 6 straight longbow attacks. The dragon frightened everybody but the Rogue, and hit everybody but the Rogue and Barb with it's breath weapon. It also recharged it's breath weapon. It hit the Fighter with 2 claw attacks which dropped the Fighter to 0hp. The frightened Sorc dropped Fireball on it for decent damage and ran away. The Rogue hit it hard with Booming Blade and dashed away. 4d8+4d6+5+9. The frightened raging large Barb hit it 3 times with rocks for 1d4+1+5+2 damage each. The dragon was less successful with it's breath weapon this time as everybody had scattered but it did drop the Bard to 0hp. The Sorc hit it again with Fireball, and the Rogue hit it again with Booming Blade. The dragon essentially wasted it's 3rd turn attacking my Barb before retreating. The Blessed Sorc hit it with a Firebolt twice and the Rogue hit it a 3rd time with Booming Blade to start the 4th round and it was dead.


So yeah keeping it in the air, it lasted 1 extra round, but was still not that difficult. The first combat was over as soon as it rolled a low initiative and went last. It was especially over when it got grappled. I'd say the first combat was a good rounded group effort, but the second time around, the Aasimar Swashbuckler was the star of the show. Hitting it with 3 Booming Blades did a LOT of damage easily 2/3 of the total damage, and it managed to never be frightened or even be targeted with the breath weapon as it was off alone away from the group. It was the target of all Legendary Action attacks in the 2nd combat, but never even got below half HP. The Bard seemed to be the most useless, but did provide the party with +13 temp hit points as well as some Inspiration dice here and there for the Fighter or Rogue so I guess it was more useful than it seemed. A Hasted Fighter using it's Action Surge in the first round deals a lot of damage. Being Blessed allowed it to hit with almost every attack.

This was just a pure fight thing. No RP or anything of course. The dragon didn't have any reason to fight to the death, but that's not what this was about. I still want to do this properly and use an adult red next time.

I'm open to suggestions on what I could have and/or should have done differently.

[Aimeryan]

I don't think you are using the fly speed (+Wing Attack LA speed) and breath range of the dragon that well - given that this is the speciality of a dragon it is not surprising it would go down otherwise like any other chump.

If used well:

The casters are going to be out of range for a lot of spells (including Fireball) and many damage spells are going to be saved for none/half if they are somehow in range (even Dex Save is +6 - other than Int it only goes up from there).
Ranged attacks are going to have disadvantage if in range at all (this being the Strength Javelin Fighter, now with a Longbow?, and the Throwing Axe Barb).
Melee attacks are obviously out, even if they can fly (unless fast).
The breath attack should knock out some of the party that it hits (not all the damage will roll average, so just a little higher will get some of them). For any targets where the damage rolls average (or low for the lower hp members), or if they save (which is difficult: Dex Saving Throw DC 21 means most of the party are going to have to roll a 19+ to take half damage, with even the Rogue still failing most of the time at level 9) or have resistance (Absorb Elements most likely) a second breath attack will cinch the deal. If it really wants to prioritise a target, it can ALSO do up to three Tail Attacks with Legendary Actions (for a total of around 50 damage, with a VERY high chance to hit).


The Rogue shouldn't be able to keep up, even with a flying race. Aasimar Protector fly speed is 30ft, Cunning Action Dash gets this up to 60ft - Adult Red Dragon fly speed is 80ft, plus Wing Attack LA for another 40ft. If the Rogue is Hasted then using the double speed and the extra dash (so 180ft speed) they can keep up... until Haste is lost which should be pretty easy for the dragon to manage with a nice breath on the caster. Actually, since the Dragon is using it's action for Breath only, they could just Dash as well (so, 200ft) when waiting for the recharge, keeping ahead of the Rogue then easily. Also, it would be very stupid for the Rogue to follow the dragon out of range of their allies and fight the dragon solo, which is basically what such a chase would end up doing.

The dragon can largely ignore the Barb, Fighter, and Rogue if it circles and just comes in range for breath attacks against the party - or if the Rogue is Hasted, kill the solo Rogue, or kill/disrupt the caster. The casters are likely toast if they don't Absorb Elements, and likely toast the next breath even if they do, meanwhile most of their spells will be out of range, low damage, saved, or legendary saved.


What the party can do against this:

Spam Earthbind, maybe? It has a 300ft range, so likely have two rounds before the dragon can outrange it after using it's breath, then you have to wait for the second breath. If enough of them can cast the 2nd level spell they might get lucky; the Dragon has +8 to Str Saves, and it has 3 Legendary Saves... presuming the first breath doesn't kill the casters. The only (relatively) weak save the Dragon has is Int (+3); there are Int Saving Throw spells potentially available at these levels, however, they are all short ranged so unlikely to get any casts of unless the caster(s) win initiative and start near enough - if the casters could then force out the Legendary Saves using these they may be able to follow up with an Earthbind before the dragon gets out of range.
Hide in some tunnels and hope it follows?

[GeneralVryth]

Beyond what Aimeryan said (which is essentially hit and run tactics to the max), 1 or 2 spells on the Dragon makes a huge difference. Plain an old invisibility is the perfect spell for a predator like a dragon. It has an hour long duration, which means its prey isn't going to see it coming until it's far too late. At a minimum this would mean no pre-buffing.

Also, the starting combat range feels off. The only way things start that close is if the Dragon is ambushing the group (or somehow got ambushed). If the Dragon isn't using something like invisibility it should be visible from a long way off. Which plays in to the hit and run tactics mentioned above.

[Unoriginal]

I'm open to suggestions on what I could have and/or should have done differently.

The Adult Green Dragon could have used the Wing Attack Legendary Action to attempt to get out of the grapple, no?

Not to mention it'd let the Dragon get further away from the PCs when they pile on their big melee attacks regardless of if the PCs beat the save or not.


I The casters are likely toast if they don't Absorb Elements


I mean, Absorb Element does nothing against a Green Dragon's poison.


Beyond what Aimeryan said (which is essentially hit and run tactics to the max), 1 or 2 spells on the Dragon makes a huge difference. Plain an old invisibility is the perfect spell for a predator like a dragon. It has an hour long duration, which means its prey isn't going to see it coming until it's far too late. At a minimum this would mean no pre-buffing.

Also, the starting combat range feels off. The only way things start that close is if the Dragon is ambushing the group (or somehow got ambushed). If the Dragon isn't using something like invisibility it should be visible from a long way off. Which plays in to the hit and run tactics mentioned above.


Even without adding any spell to the Dragon or making them focus on hit-and-run, I have to note that the Dragon in the simulations (especially the first one) mostly unleashed melee attacks on the two targets who were the most apt at enduring them.

CTurbo, I'd say it may be worth considering the same fight, but the Dragon picks the Rogue or the Sorcerer as priority for the melee attacks. Or maybe even the Bard.

[J-H]

I typically add a "grab and throw" rider onto dragon bite attacks. That gives it some crowd control, and also lets it bypass the front line even if it's not flying.

[KorvinStarmast]

My particular party isn't the best equipped to deal with dangerous ranged enemies. We really haven't faced that many ranged enemies in our travels so far.
Can one of your spell casters cast Earthbind?

The Bard and Sorcerer have many ranged options, and the Swashbuckler isn't terrible with a crossbow, and as a Protector Aasimar, can fly once a day.
The Fighter has a 16 Dex and wouldn't be terrible with a longbow which he could and should get at the next town.
My Barb usually throws rocks when necessary and does know Chaos Bolt and Mind Sliver although he has never used either so far. I tend to only use spells he can cast on accident or at the very least not fully understanding what he just did, and I haven't figured out how to implement those spells yet. A grind, but possible.

[CTurbo]

Nobody has Earthbind.

I went into this thinking the dragon had the advantage so I didn't want to further stack things in the dragon's favor by having the starting range 100s of feet away. Since this was looked at as a gladiatorial contest, I figured 40ft was ok. I agree that the further the starting distance, the more it favors the dragon. I also assumed the party's tactics would be split up as much as possible. Even though the Rogue never did any damage on it's first turn, it was able to fly far away to the side away from the party. In the first combat, the Bard went far to the other side, and the Sorc went far back. In the second combat, neither had the opportunity to move away before the dragon got it's first turn, and both suffered from the breath weapon. I also assumed that any dragon would aim it's breath weapon at where ever it would hit the most amount of creatures.

In the first combat, it never got a chance to ignore the Barb and Fighter since it got grappled before it ever got a turn. My Barb has 20 Str, Expertise in Athletics, and of course advantage on Str checks so a huge advantage over the 23 Str dragon that's not proficient in Str saves/checks. My Barb never failed any Dex save at any time, but I'm not sure I would have allowed Wing Attack to cause the grapple to break anyway. It just says I'd have fallen prone, doesn't say I had to let go of my grapple. Also HIS movement is 0, not mine, I could have just stood up again while still holding the dragon in a headlock. How would you have ruled that just out of curiosity?

In the second combat, the Fighter hit it with 6 attacks on it's first and only turn so to the dragon, it was the most dangerous enemy and focused on taking the Fighter out which it did with it's breath weapon and 2 claw attacks one of which crit. It did largely ignore the Barb though having no attacks against it in the second combat. In the first combat ALL claw and tail attacks were against the Barb, but the Barb was too close for the bite attack or breath weapon range.

The Rogue proved to be an interesting foil for the dragon. With a +9 in initiative, it went before the dragon and was able to get away from the party and in position. Since it did no damage in either of it's first turns, I assumed the dragon didn't perceive it as a major threat at first. In the first combat, the dragon never had a choice, but in the second, it did in round 2. The Rogue has Lucky and Mobile so it could match the dragon's speed of 80ft not counting extra half movement from wing attack. With Bless, Lucky, Ring of Protection, +9 Dex Saves, and Expertise in Acrobatics, it was just never going to fail any Dex save and Uncanny Dodge and Evasion only helped to further mitigate damage as well taking no damage from the breath weapon. When it couldn't reach the dragon with Booming Blade, it hit with it's light crossbow. I think the Rogue would have been able to last at least one more round with the dragon before falling to 0HP. By the 3rd round, the dragon was strictly focused on the Rogue. The Rogue was hitting it HARD with Booming Blade with the dragon taking the extra damage each round and the +9 from the Aasimar racial ability helped a lot too. You could argue that the Rogue wouldn't be able to keep Bless up for the entire combat while taking so many hits. My group plays concentration checks a little more relaxed than RAW only rolling them on significant damage occurrences. I think I rolled the check on about half the hits and passed every time.

The Sorcerer has Spell Sniper so could hit it with Firebolt from far away, and got it to use it's Legendary Resistance twice with Fireball while still dealing like 15 damage to it each time.

With the Bard I realize I did make some mistakes. I was giving out Inspiration dice each turn, but was not in range most of the time, and also out of range for Vicious Mockery to work too. Not exactly groundbreaking, but still.

The 16 Con Bard and 18 Con Sorc both have 74/75 HP. The breath weapon was brutal knocking the Bard out with one hit and one miss for half damage. Luckily the Sorc was out of range after the first hit, or would have also been knocked out. The Barb could have tanked another hit or two. The breath weapon was a nonfactor for the Rogue.

[Mastikator]

The breath weapon should've been a factor for the rogue. Evasion only applies to dex saves where if you succeed you take half damage. A green dragon's breath weapon is constitution save for half.

The second thing to do is use legendary action to fly 40 feet into the air, if the dragon starts on the ground then after the first player ends their turn the dragon is now 40 feet up.

[KorvinStarmast]

The breath weapon should've been a factor for the rogue. Evasion only applies to dex saves where if you succeed you take half damage. A green dragon's breath weapon is constitution save for half. The title of the thread is how to take out an adult red dragon, though. (Did we change dragons and I didn't notice?)

[CTurbo]

The breath weapon should've been a factor for the rogue. Evasion only applies to dex saves where if you succeed you take half damage. A green dragon's breath weapon is constitution save for half.

The second thing to do is use legendary action to fly 40 feet into the air, if the dragon starts on the ground then after the first player ends their turn the dragon is now 40 feet up.


Hey that's one great call out that could have changed everything. You're right that the Green dragon has Con saves instead of Dex like the rest of them. I missed that completely. In the second combat the Rogue took one breath weapon and passed it's Dex save for no damage when it should have done a Con save for half. I don't remember now what that roll was or if it would have passed the Con save or not, but it potentially could have KO'd the Rogue. The Rogue still had +3 to Con saves + Bless + Ring of Protection + Lucky so there's a reasonable chance it would have passed anyway. The Rogue also has 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer so could have also added 2d4 to that save if needed. I never had to use Favored by the Gods. The Rogue would have survived half damage, but would have rolled a Con check to keep Bless up.

In the first combat, during the Rogue's turn I had it roll Perception to assess it's surroundings as it wasn't close enough to attack anybody at that time. I could have had it do it's Wing Attack against nobody just to fly up, and maybe I should have, but I felt like it was a "get away from me" ATTACK option that didn't make sense with the closest enemies 40ft away. The Barb was 2nd in the turn order and immediately grappled it. I think that was just lucky. Had ANY other character gone next and attacked the dragon, I would have had it fly up for sure.


Yes I swapped dragons last minute rolling a D6 to see what dragon color we fought. Honestly I thought a Red would be too hard so gave the options to face the slightly weaker ones instead.

I'll redo it using a Red next time, and I'll start with much more distance. That will give the party a couple rounds to get going and see if I can come up with a better strategy for the Bard. I can also give the Barb a longbow. The Pyro Sorcerer has Eldritch Blast from Spell Sniper so it can hit from 240ft and also not HAVE to spend all Sorcery points on Transmute Spell. I could even "cheat" and swap out one of her metamagic's for Distant Spell which she doesn't have lol.

[Aimeryan]

It is worth noting that a breath attack from above is a circle with a diameter equal to the length of the cone (60ft). That is a lot of space to split up - essentially needing each member more than 60ft apart to not have multiple hit. Consider that if the party is that split up, the dragon should probably go in for the kill on one with legendary tail attacks and normal attacks - it probably kills any non-Barb from that alone. If the rest of the party come to try and help, well thats the perfect time to fly up and breath down on them - then come back once recharged, ready to either breath on them all again or pick off the next loner.

The Rogue should still not be able to catch up without Haste - both would have 80ft fly speed without Wing Attack, so no closing. With Wing Attack thrown in its not even close. A light-crossbow attack would be pitiful; even if it beats the 19AC, there is no Sneak Attack to add to it - you are looking at single digit damage IF it lands. If the Rogue does follow solo, a single round of 3 Tail Attacks, 1 Bite, and 2 Claw Attacks is likely to dissuade a second attempt. Also, consider whether you would rule the Rogue is using the wings to fly or if they are just for show - Wing Attack knocking the Rogue prone could be devastating with the former.

The Fighter is using a Longbow; is it still a Strength Fighter? How is it hitting with low Dex, likely no Archery Fighting Style, and Disadvantage against 19AC? Then its, two attacks? Four on an Action Surge. Each hit that does manage to land doing single digit damage.

Barb is still, well Barb.

Sorcerer has some damage output with Fireball - about even chance it fails the Save. Got a few of those in the tank, problem is the 150ft range - the dragon can actually avoid it totally if it gets the distances right, but presuming it doesn't, that is one Fireball for every Breath. So, 14/28 damage average in trade. Distant Spell would help for sure, although, against a Red dragon that means no Transmuted Spell so...

Bard we don't much about. The spell list has nothing to attack with at appreciable distances. Best bet would be if they were a Glamour Bard and took two Level 3 (or lower) spells from another class list - Haste (for the Rogue) and Rope Trick would probably be best, heh.

Actually, if the Bard and Sorc had Haste and Fly (whichever has whichever) and could keep it going (Rope Trick!), then the Swashbuckler Rogue might actually stand a chance here: 60ft Fly Speed from Fly, Doubled to 120ft from Haste, Cunning Action Dash to make it 240ft, Haste Dash to make it 360ft - the Swashbuckler Rogue can maintain a distance of around 180ft from the Dragon hitting and running (flying?), while not suffering opportunity attacks. Mobile can make it up to 420ft, for a comfortable retreat range of 210ft, which puts the Rogue even out of movement+Breath range.

The dragon could Ready actions, though. The dragon may Ready Breaths, but seeing it miss will probably just Ready Bite. If the dragon does do this (and it makes sense it would try to attack the superspeed Rogue chasing it when it gets the chance), then it depends on how many rounds it takes for the Booming Blade + Sneak Attack combo to kill the dragon. Given you have a 55% chance of hitting (+9) against 19AC, and the dragon has ~250hp: you are looking at about 35-40 damage per hit on average for the BB+SA, so say 6 successful attacks, about 11 rounds on average then. Bless would help, but Sorc and Bard are busy Concentrating already. You could Bless yourself (with the 1 Cleric level), but thats an action and you could lose it easily to a Breath that connects or even just a Bite. The dragon only needs about 2.2 Breaths or 3.5 Bites or some combination to kill the Rogue, and it is very likely to hit with the Bites (about a 80% chance) and not terribly unlikely to get the Breath to hit (35% chance) - Bite is preferable. Probably kill the Rogue in 5 rounds easily. Eh, was worth a try.

[CTurbo]

It is worth noting that a breath attack from above is a circle with a diameter equal to the length of the cone (60ft). That is a lot of space to split up - essentially needing each member more than 60ft apart to not have multiple hit. Consider that if the party is that split up, the dragon should probably go in for the kill on one with legendary tail attacks and normal attacks - it probably kills any non-Barb from that alone. If the rest of the party come to try and help, well thats the perfect time to fly up and breath down on them - then come back once recharged, ready to either breath on them all again or pick off the next loner.

The Rogue should still not be able to catch up without Haste - both would have 80ft fly speed without Wing Attack, so no closing. With Wing Attack thrown in its not even close. A light-crossbow attack would be pitiful; even if it beats the 19AC, there is no Sneak Attack to add to it - you are looking at single digit damage IF it lands. If the Rogue does follow solo, a single round of 3 Tail Attacks, 1 Bite, and 2 Claw Attacks is likely to dissuade a second attempt. Also, consider whether you would rule the Rogue is using the wings to fly or if they are just for show - Wing Attack knocking the Rogue prone could be devastating with the former.

The Fighter is using a Longbow; is it still a Strength Fighter? How is it hitting with low Dex, likely no Archery Fighting Style, and Disadvantage against 19AC? Then its, two attacks? Four on an Action Surge. Each hit that does manage to land doing single digit damage.

Barb is still, well Barb.

Sorcerer has some damage output with Fireball - about even chance it fails the Save. Got a few of those in the tank, problem is the 150ft range - the dragon can actually avoid it totally if it gets the distances right, but presuming it doesn't, that is one Fireball for every Breath. So, 14/28 damage average in trade. Distant Spell would help for sure, although, against a Red dragon that means no Transmuted Spell so...

Bard we don't much about. The spell list has nothing to attack with at appreciable distances. Best bet would be if they were a Glamour Bard and took two Level 3 (or lower) spells from another class list - Haste (for the Rogue) and Rope Trick would probably be best, heh.

Actually, if the Bard and Sorc had Haste and Fly (whichever has whichever) and could keep it going (Rope Trick!), then the Swashbuckler Rogue might actually stand a chance here: 60ft Fly Speed from Fly, Doubled to 120ft from Haste, Cunning Action Dash to make it 240ft, Haste Dash to make it 360ft - the Swashbuckler Rogue can maintain a distance of around 180ft from the Dragon hitting and running (flying?), while not suffering opportunity attacks. Mobile can make it up to 420ft, for a comfortable retreat range of 210ft, which puts the Rogue even out of movement+Breath range.

The dragon could Ready actions, though. The dragon may Ready Breaths, but seeing it miss will probably just Ready Bite. If the dragon does do this (and it makes sense it would try to attack the superspeed Rogue chasing it when it gets the chance), then it depends on how many rounds it takes for the Booming Blade + Sneak Attack combo to kill the dragon. Given you have a 55% chance of hitting (+9) against 19AC, and the dragon has ~250hp: you are looking at about 35-40 damage per hit on average for the BB+SA, so say 6 successful attacks, about 11 rounds on average then. Bless would help, but Sorc and Bard are busy Concentrating already. You could Bless yourself (with the 1 Cleric level), but thats an action and you could lose it easily to a Breath that connects or even just a Bite. The dragon only needs about 2.2 Breaths or 3.5 Bites or some combination to kill the Rogue, and it is very likely to hit with the Bites (about a 80% chance) and not terribly unlikely to get the Breath to hit (35% chance) - Bite is preferable. Probably kill the Rogue in 5 rounds easily. Eh, was worth a try.


Ok I see another way I was messing up. I was giving the Swashbuckler Sneak Attack on the Light Crossbow attack, but reading it again, you have to be within 5ft of the enemy to use Rakish Audacity so you're right, no Sneak Attack.

The Fighter has 20 Str and 16 Dex, and the Defense Fighting Style. It was also both Blessed and Hasted, and often has an Inspiration die too. That's not terrible conditions for a longbow.

The Bard is a Lore Bard, most of her spells are save or suck, and she's loaded with concentration spells. She's extremely dangerous on enemies lacking Legendary Resistance, but with that dragon, I was struggling to find useful spells to cast with her. Outside of Healing Word, Mass Healing Word, and Revivify, she doesn't have a lot of party buffs. Enlarge/Reduce and Polymorgh and I guess Greater Invisibility are it.

The Swashbuckler has 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and almost always uses one of her 2 spell slots on Bless.

You gave me idea that maybe the Sorcerer should twin Haste on the Rogue and the Fighter and not the Barb

[GeneralVryth]

Another thought on the Fighter front, how is it getting 6 attacks in a round? Extra Attack + Action Surge (Extra Attack) + Hasted Attack is only 5.

[CTurbo]

Another thought on the Fighter front, how is it getting 6 attacks in a round? Extra Attack + Action Surge (Extra Attack) + Hasted Attack is only 5.

I was giving him the Hasted attack again on the Action Surge. Is that not correct?

[GeneralVryth]

I was giving him the Hasted attack again on the Action Surge. Is that not correct?

Nope. Haste grants an extra action, but with a more limited option set (and if used to attack, it you can only make one attack regardless of Extra Attack). It's basically a weaker version of Action Surge on the action front. All that said, does it matter? It's 1 out of 6. If you made Haste so it just gave +1 attack on the attack action and you can no longer take the attack action with the hasted action, it probably would still be fine (a buff to martials primarily).

[CTurbo]

Ok guys I just re-ran this using an adult red and I think we got incredibly lucky but we killed it on the last turn of the 3rd round.

I started us off in a grassy field area of mostly rocky terrain and the dragon some 300ft+ away. Initial perception checks we learned that it was a dragon, but not what color or how big. The next perception check we learned it was red and huge. We started our prebuffs and the Aasimar did it's transformation thing. The Rogue and Fighter were Hasted, and the Rogue, Fighter, and Sorc were Blessed. The Barb was Enlarged. The Barb's extended homebrewed wild magic table resulted in him having a flying speed equal to his walking speed which I thought was very lucky, but honestly ended up not making as much of an impact as I thought it would. Bard does Inspiring Leader for +13 temp HP

The party scatters pre-Int. As soon as the dragon was 120ft way, it used Frightening Presence and we rolled Int. Only the Rogue and Sorc failed the save and were frightened but only for 1 round.

Party positions - Fighter and Barb in the middle of the field, but Barb is 40ft up, Rogue is flying 40ft to the left, Sorc is 30ft to the right, Bard ran 30ft back. Dragon 120ft ahead of Fighter 60-70ft up.

Round 1
1 Rogue readies action to shoot light crossbow when dragons enters range. Passes save for Frightened.
2 Fighter shoots 5 longbow shots hitting 4 of them. 4d8+12 damage
3 Bard readies action to use all 7 charges of her wand of magic missile.
4 Dragon flies forward taking 1d8+5+9 damage from the Rogue and 9d4+9 damage from Magic Missile. Dragon used breath weapon on Fighter and Barb who both fail save taking 60 damage. Barb accidentally casts Absorb Elements and takes half damage. Nothing exciting happened on the Wild Magic table. The dragon continues it's 80ft movement and is now between the Bard and the Barb and Fighter with the Rogue being about 60ft away. Did NOT recharge it's breath weapon.
5 Barb starts turn 60ft away and flies forward 40ft and hit with 2 hand axes for 2d6+2d4+14 damage.
6 Sorc hits with 1 out of 2 Eldritch Blasts at disadvantage for 1d10 damage and passes the save for Frightened. Moves another 30ft away from things.

Round 2
1 Rogue starts turn 60ft away and uses extra move action from Haste to reach the dragon and hit it with Booming Blade for 2d8+4d6+5+9 damage and then dashes 40ft away.
2 Fighter hits 2 out of 3 longbow shots for 2d8+8 damage. Uses Second Wind for +8 HP.
3 Bard casts Synaptic Static. Dragon fails save but chooses to succeed instead for half of 8d6 damage. Bard runs 30ft back.
4 Dragon flies straight to the Rogue and misses it's bite attack but hits twice with claw attacks for 2d6+8 damage twice. Rogue Uncanny Dodge for half damage of the first hit. Did NOT recharge breath weapon. Dragon takes extra 2d8 from Booming Blade.
5 Barb uses action to dash to reach the dragon, but can't do anything else. Dragon attacks Barb with Tail for half of 2d8+8 damage
6 Sorc hit 4 times with Eldritch Blast for 4d10 damage. Dragon uses Wing Attack against Rogue and Barb, and much to my surprise, they BOTH fail the save, both take 2d6+8 damage, both fall from the sky for 6d6 damage, and are prone. Barb uses Stone's Endurance to cut damage by 10. Rogue drops Bless. Dragon flies 40ft up

Round 3
1 Rogue stands up, moves and dashes toward dragon and hits with 1 out of 2 light crossbow attacks for 1d8+5+9 damage
2 Fighter hits with 1 out of 3 longbow attacks for 1d8+4 damage
3 Bard moves toward the Fighter to get in range and casts Mass Healing Word on the Fighter, Rogue, and Barb for +7HP
4 Dragon flies straight for the Rogue as it's closest and hits the Rogue with all 3 attacks.
5 Barb stands up, flies towards the dragon but can't reach. Hits with Chaos Bolt for 2d8+1d6 Poison damage. Dragon hits Rogue with Tail attack.
6 Sorc moves within 150ft and cast Fireball Transmute damage to cold damage and dragon chooses to save, but was killed anyway.

The Rogue was nearly dead, the Fighter and Barb were at maybe half heath. We got lucky that it never was able to recharge it's breath as that probably would have KO'd a couple of characters.

Dragon tactics were stay in the air hoping to rely on breath weapon more. Hasting the Rogue was a great idea, but the Rogue would not have survived another hit. If the Barb would have gotten another turn it would have reach the dragon and attempted a grapple which would have been interesting. After KOing the Rogue, the dragon would have likely went for the Fighter next and probably could have killed him in one turn.

[Aimeryan]

Again though, you're really just treating it as stand and fight type of combat on both sides. Dragons fly, fast, and have a ranged huge aoe weapon, and this one has 16 Int - it isn't going to stay there trading blows when it can out speed everyone but the Hasted Rogue (which can't retreat far enough away to not suffer the multiattack + a Tail Attack). Also really surprised that with a 60ft diameter circle it can not hit more than two people, but the whole party are all able to attack a high up dragon the same round - it seems like it firing the breath horizontally and then heading into the middle of the group (for some reason?).

Some of the damage also seems off - can't place the +9 on the Rogue's attack, also Fighter seems to have an added damage point per attack but that probably just a +1 Longbow. Fighter should hit about 1 in 4 on average with Disadvantage, maybe 1 in 3, so either getting lucky or again the dragon is staying close for no real reason (it can either just outrange and breath or take on the Rogue essentially solo). If the Dragon recognises a Hasted opponent (which should be obvious to a 16 Int dragon) it is likely to either deal with that opponent first or take out what appears to be the caster (hint, not the Fighter in plate and a Longbow, not the Barb with axes).

Honestly, this dragon is fighting like it has an Int of 6 or is a World of Warcraft boss. It has complete control to outmaneuver the enemy and the intelligence to take out the casters to drop the buffs, after which it is basically uncatchable flying around breathing to death the rest of the party at leisure. Or, fly away and deal with the Hasted Rogue solo (which without Fly doesn't have the speed to retreat safely after a melee attack - and one round of the dragon getting to do it whole attack routine soundly kills the Rogue, two rounds maybe if it needs to use Wing Attack to close), then come back at leisure to mop up the others.

My last analysis, I did forget about Uncanny Dodge - that would double (less any lucky breaths) the number of rounds required to kill the Rogue (because the dragon can only Ready one attack), which should grab a win for the party (likely the dragon flying away after just managing to kill the Rogue rather than risking low HP on potential Longbow crits and low damage but long range spells when it comes in for a breath attack). That said, I also presumed the dragon would always move for the Booming Blade, which is not actually needed as the rest of the party cannot get in range after just a short flight upwards, and it would not be able to outfly the Hasted Fly Mobile Rogue - so why move once reached a decent height, since it can only attack anyway by Readying for when the Rogue gets in close? That would increase the number of rounds the Rogue needs to kill the dragon (or get it low enough to force it to flee after killing the Rogue), so putting it back in the not likely to succeed category (lucky Rogue crits over and over aside, naturally).

[CTurbo]

Again though, you're really just treating it as stand and fight type of combat on both sides. Dragons fly, fast, and have a ranged huge aoe weapon, and this one has 16 Int - it isn't going to stay there trading blows when it can out speed everyone but the Hasted Rogue (which can't retreat far enough away to not suffer the multiattack + a Tail Attack). Also really surprised that with a 60ft diameter circle it can not hit more than two people, but the whole party are all able to attack a high up dragon the same round - it seems like it firing the breath horizontally and then heading into the middle of the group (for some reason?).

Some of the damage also seems off - can't place the +9 on the Rogue's attack, also Fighter seems to have an added damage point per attack but that probably just a +1 Longbow. Fighter should hit about 1 in 4 on average with Disadvantage, maybe 1 in 3, so either getting lucky or again the dragon is staying close for no real reason (it can either just outrange and breath or take on the Rogue essentially solo). If the Dragon recognises a Hasted opponent (which should be obvious to a 16 Int dragon) it is likely to either deal with that opponent first or take out what appears to be the caster (hint, not the Fighter in plate and a Longbow, not the Barb with axes).

Honestly, this dragon is fighting like it has an Int of 6 or is a World of Warcraft boss. It has complete control to outmaneuver the enemy and the intelligence to take out the casters to drop the buffs, after which it is basically uncatchable flying around breathing to death the rest of the party at leisure. Or, fly away and deal with the Hasted Rogue solo (which without Fly doesn't have the speed to retreat safely after a melee attack - and one round of the dragon getting to do it whole attack routine soundly kills the Rogue, two rounds maybe if it needs to use Wing Attack to close), then come back at leisure to mop up the others.

My last analysis, I did forget about Uncanny Dodge - that would double (less any lucky breaths) the number of rounds required to kill the Rogue (because the dragon can only Ready one attack), which should grab a win for the party (likely the dragon flying away after just managing to kill the Rogue rather than risking low HP on potential Longbow crits and low damage but long range spells when it comes in for a breath attack). That said, I also presumed the dragon would always move for the Booming Blade, which is not actually needed as the rest of the party cannot get in range after just a short flight upwards, and it would not be able to outfly the Hasted Fly Mobile Rogue - so why move once reached a decent height, since it can only attack anyway by Readying for when the Rogue gets in close? That would increase the number of rounds the Rogue needs to kill the dragon (or get it low enough to force it to flee after killing the Rogue), so putting it back in the not likely to succeed category (lucky Rogue crits over and over aside, naturally).

We're using the Volo's Protector Aasimar which can deal Radiant damage equal to it's level once per round.

The Fighter has a 16 Dex, +1 Longbow, and was also Blessed for the first 2 rounds. It also had 1 or 2 Inspiration dice at one point. It never took a shot with disadvantage. Why would it have disadvantage? It passed the save for Frightened Presence.

The dragon DID focus on the most dangerous opponent which was the Rogue, and the only reason the Rogue survived 3 rounds is Uncanny Dodge which it used 3 times to nullify quite a bit of damage. Inspiring Leader and that one heal from Mass healing Word were critical too. I think the Rogue had 10hp left at the end.

The fast flying dragon was able to stay away from and out maneuver the Large flying Goliath Barbarian who was mostly useless for 2 out of 3 rounds. I still can't believe that both the Barb with Advantage and Rogue with Bless AND Lucky failed the Wing Attack save. I disagree with the ruling that they should fall to the ground prone from that, but went with it anyway ruling in the dragon's favor.

In the end I think the party was lucky that the dragon never was able to recharge it's breath weapon and only hit 2 PCs with Frightening Presence who promptly saved.

The whole point to this exercise was white room combat to the death in which I didn't think the party would win. Yes if I was DMing the dragon in a campaign it would have simply flown away until it recharged it's breath weapon each time, and also would have retreated for good once it got so low on HP.

[Aimeryan]

It never took a shot with disadvantage. Why would it have disadvantage? It passed the save for Frightened Presence.

Longbow range is 150/600ft - the first number is the normal range it operates in, the second number is the range at which it can operate in but under Disadvantage.

Yeah, I mean, if you play the dragon as a brute then it loses most of its advantages. Using its maneuveability to stay away from multiple enemies and engage them on its terms is how such an intelligent creature would act. In this instance it means either separating and dealing with them piecemeal, or only (re)engaging when it can use its huge aoe weapon. It is essentially a fast aerial bomber, not a hippo.

[Hael]

Yeah, I mean, if you play the dragon as a brute then it loses most of its advantages. Using its maneuveability to stay away from multiple enemies and engage them on its terms is how such an intelligent creature would act. In this instance it means either separating and dealing with them piecemeal, or only (re)engaging when it can use its huge aoe weapon. It is essentially a fast aerial bomber, not a hippo.

I wonder how many GMs actually play dragons this way, as opposed to just playing it like a video game npc.

Anecdotally I see a lot of differences in various groups and its not entirely clear to me who has the right of it.
Playing monsters intelligently can be extremely frustrating to certain groups when you hit something that can essentially infinitely kite/stealth/avoid you (as that sets up future incentives to cheese such fight with 1 turn surprise kill tactics), so the answer isn’t completely straightforward if the goal is to maximize the fun factor.

[CTurbo]

To be fair, if I was DMing this dragon in an actual campaign, I would have most definitely had it retreat once it dropped so low in hit points. Dragons are not going to willingly fight to the death in 99% of cases. Other than NOT running away when badly wounded, I don't feel like I ran it THAT poorly. It successfully avoided melee range with the Fighter and Barb, and it did focus on the most dangerous character, the Rogue almost killing it.

The point of this was could our party survive an encounter with an adult red dragon and then could they actually kill one. I was very skeptical, but responses were mostly favorable in the party's favor due to action economy. I was surprised our party was able to kill it at all, and we probably wouldn't have had it been able to recharge it's breath weapon.

If I was to run this again as another white room fight to the death, I would maybe have it use it's fire breath, and then retreat until it recharged each time. I also didn't feel right using it's Wing Attack with no enemies around simply to get the extra movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't make sense.

[Amnestic]

I also didn't feel right using it's Wing Attack with no enemies around simply to get the extra movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't make sense.

Mentally change its name to "Wing Thrust" or "Wing Burst" without touching the mechanics and it'll feel better. 'cos ultimately all it is is a big wave of their wings which results in lots of air and a burst of speed. Calling it an "attack" makes it seem like it's solely an offense thing. Which, it can be, but doesn't need to.

[da newt]

Any 1 v 6 fight is absolutely in favor of the 6 - it really is that simple. However, IF the dragon is clever (hi INT and WIS stats would lead you to believe it is), it ought to take max advantage of its LA and superior fly speed w/ breath weapon and frightful presence to help mitigate the party's numerical advantage.

Personally I always look for good opportunities for my dragons to grapple one PC and fly off with them - it's a nasty option.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any 1 v 6 fight is absolutely in favor of the 6 - it really is that simple. However, IF the dragon is clever (hi INT and WIS stats would lead you to believe it is), it ought to take max advantage of its LA and superior fly speed w/ breath weapon and frightful presence to help mitigate the party's numerical advantage.

Personally I always look for good opportunities for my dragons to grapple one PC and fly off with them - it's a nasty option. I did this last year. The rest of the Players were a bit non-plussed at first. Note that the soon-to-be-grappled player had told me that he was going to be out for a few weeks, and I stumbled over this idea for how a dragon becomes a threat to the party, but also flies away when the action economy you mention leaps out at him and he's like "this isn't working!"

Dumb luck on the timing.

The other players hunted the dragon down and (through good planning) killed it. Adult green dragon. Yes, the monk eventually got through the LAs and stunned it ... so it goes.

[da newt]

"The other players hunted the dragon down and (through good planning) killed it. Adult green dragon. Yes, the monk eventually got through the LAs and stunned it ... so it goes."

IME as the BBED flies away w/ one of the party, the dynamic changes significantly - this isn't just a 1 v 6 fight for the party anymore, this is a can we rescue the grappled PC before the dragon eats them?, and next time we face it it's a 1 v 5 and we all know it will take one of you and end you ...

[KorvinStarmast]

IME as the BBED flies away w/ one of the party, the dynamic changes significantly - this isn't just a 1 v 6 fight for the party anymore, this is a can we rescue the grappled PC before the dragon eats them?, and next time we face it it's a 1 v 5 and we all know it will take one of you and end you ... Yes, the dragon got away and they had to hunt him down. Being able to stop the dragon's escape/flight takes a few particular abilities (given the speed differential and Legendary Saves).

The dragon had no intention of eating the PC (the party did not know this, also, the cleric had access to raise dead) but rather using the hostage as leverage to deal with the party. (That's how I outlined the green dragon's motivations ...). Something like an extortion deal.

One of the neat aspects of the party's tracking the dragon down was how the Barbarian (totem path) used Commune with Nature. A ritual at level 10.

The party had to focus fire on the Warlock (Archfey, Volo's) during the battle (he was riding on the dragon's back).
With the loss of that ally, the dragon needed its lair to help defend itself versus the party.
(They were able to evade or handle most of the minions...good tactics and good use of Suggestion by the bard...).