Unique and Fun builds for 3.5

[Chris222]

Can someone give me some builds that are fun to mess around with but also not too broken. I don’t like running over a whole campaign but I like all the different combinations 3.5 has.

[Chris222]

Starting Level is 5 btw

[AMFV]

Can someone give me some builds that are fun to mess around with but also not too broken. I don’t like running over a whole campaign but I like all the different combinations 3.5 has.

I mean there are thousands of potential builds (probably more actually). Do you have anything specific you're looking for? If you just want something unique and fun you could check the Junkyard or Iron Chef builds, those are usually not too powerful but are pretty unique and fun. If you're looking for something else there's a ton of material around.

Edit:


Starting Level is 5 btw

What are the other build rules. Allowable sources?

[JNAProductions]

Dragonfire Adept is fun.

[Chris222]

I mean there are thousands of potential builds (probably more actually). Do you have anything specific you're looking for? If you just want something unique and fun you could check the Junkyard or Iron Chef builds, those are usually not too powerful but are pretty unique and fun. If you're looking for something else there's a ton of material around.

Edit:



What are the other build rules. Allowable sources?

Not really any rules. Just want something fun to play around with

[Crake]

Not really any rules. Just want something fun to play around with

You're gonna have to give people more to work with, this is super vague and generic. "Fun to play around with" and "not too broken" is also very subjective.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bardsader/bardblade
Swift hunter (melee or ranged)
Unseen Seer sorcerer or wizard (scout base or rogue base)
Crusader/incarnate (maybe with monk for Decisive Strike)
Wild shape ranger/master of many forms
Astral deva or trumpet archon (monster class)
Psychic warrior (with or without Tashalatora)
Moon-warded fangshields ranger 4/paladin 2/ranger knight of furyondy X with Serenity, Devoted Tracker (übermount/Wis-SAD), requires non-humanoid base (e.g. elan, aasimar, anthropomorphic animal)
Anthropomorphic tiger into Bloodclaw Master
One-level-of-everything into Champion of Gwynharwyf (e.g. barbarian 1, hit-and-run fighter 1, battle dancer 1, Wild Shape ranger 1, mariner 1, crusader or warblade 1 at level 5, Anointed Knight at 6 if you can squeeze it in and have the Cha to get the DR and stack it with CoG)
The above, but with Singh Rager (Lawful barbarian)
Psion or erudite or ardent into Constructor
Horselord barbarian crafty hunter barbarian (Dragon 338 + UA ACFs)
Sorcadin (really more for ECL 10+, but you can start early)
Suel Arcanamach 3/Abjurant Champion 5 (as above, but you can start with crusader or warblade 5 and the casting bolts on easily)
Straight shaman
SA fighter 1/paladin into Shadowbane Inquisitor--start planning your fall into Blackguard now, fall at level 12 or so
Magical Training cleric 4/church inquisitor 1/paragnostic apostle 1 into Dweomerkeeper, focus on Divine Defiance (counterspelling) to keep the power relatively modest. Focus Domain (Inquisition), Improved Domain (magic), grab a nice staff.

A bunch of these get started at level 6-7 (e.g. the first level in many PrCs would be the 6th), but that's the design of the game, pretty much.

[AMFV]

Dragonfire Adept is fun.

Seconded, if you're just looking for out of the box fun that's going to feel unique DFA is right there. It's just a super cool class.

[Saintheart]

Low level builds compendium (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2813.msg33099#msg33099) from minmax.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin for the rest, Underdark Knight ACF, Divine Counterspell ACF for Paladin, take Divine Defiance and use Cleric turning to fuel it, Inquisition domain, Knowledge Devotion and Law Devotion. Fill your 1st level Paladin slots with Rhino's Rush and get 1st level Pearls of Power to recover those between fights.

Crusader, or Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9 always binding Naberius and using Stone Power instead of Power Attack. Dragonborn Warforged only loses the default composite plating but can still take Adamantine Body. Pick the heart aspect with Entangling Exhalation and keep opponents debuffed with that. Include Mineral Warrior (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101185426/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (gained after Dragonborn so nothing is lost) and buy off (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) the +1 LA if possible.

Spellthief 1/ Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729134056/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer 9, take Practiced Manifester early, get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin, use Substitute Powers (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729143627/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) for Ardent. Possibly use an Avenger (https://web.archive.org/web/20210816095155/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) version of Psychic Assassin if you don't want to be evil aligned. Use TWF with Gloves of the Balanced Hand, put a wand chamber in each of your weapons and put a Wand of Wraithstrike in one, which you can activate thanks to your Spellthief level.

Psion, Shaper 5/ Ectopic Adept 5/ Paragnostic Apostle (adapted) 1/ Constructor (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215639/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 9. Personal Construct ACF (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729134110/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a), PA ability is Mind Over Matter, and be sure to get Practiced Manifester.

[Inevitability]

Past Iron Chef rounds have been mentioned already, but the Iron Chef E6 rounds are especially useful if you just want something fun at low levels. The bottom of the first post in the current round (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?665207-Iron-Chef-E6-Appetizer-Edition-Round-XLVIII) has a list of all former competitions, if one of the themes sounds interesting I suggest having a look.


Outside of that, some monsters that might be fun to play:

-Hairy Spider from Monsters of Faerun is a +0 LA legally playable fine-sized spider, if you can get your DM to get it an intelligence score somehow (being an ex-familiar or arguing a little about what 'at least 3' means should both work, at worst you can make it fiendish/celestial). Your ability scores will be pretty bad outside of wisdom/dexterity/constitution, so consider a divine caster (with Surrogate spellcasting), an ardent, a swordsage, or even a weirder dragonfire adept/warlock/binder build.

-Marrulurks from Sandstorm are 3 RHD +1 LA monsters that get 2d6 sneak attack, charisma-based death attack, an 1/day Nauseating Breath, free poison use, and a lot of useful ability bonuses, making them really good rogues with some special abilities you otherwise wouldn't have.

-Half-fey is a +2 LA template that gives lots of fun spell-like abilities and wings, plus good stat boosts. Phrenic is similar but with psionics and no flight.

-If you want to play a ghost, Telthor from Unapproachable East is a +2 LA template that turns a humanoid into an incorporeal fey. The only issue is the Bound to the Land (Su), which deals 1 point of damage for every turn you spend outside your homeland. There's ways to outheal that damage if you're above half-health (dragon shaman's vigor aura, Touch of Healing feat), but few to negate it completely.

-In a way, it's the opposite of memorable, but a Vecna-Blooded creature (MMIV) can make for a very interesting PC.

[pabelfly]

Giant Anthro Octopus is fun and not very broken at low-level. It's a lot of fun throwing a whole bunch of d20s on the table and knowing your enemy is going to turn into sashimi, but you will still be in the same ballpark, damage-wise, as a decent two-hander power attack build.

My question would be, do you expect to reach level 9?

If you think you'll reach level 9, I'd go Octopus 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger X so you can get Greater Multiweapon Fighting. If you're at level 5, Ranger 2 gives you Multiweapon Fighting for free.

If you don't think you'll reach level 9, I'd go Octopus 2/Swordsage 1/Psychic Warrior X. If you're staying at level 5, Psychic Warrior 2 gives you Mantled Warrior (Dimension Hop), which is great fun for a martial.

[smasher0404]

A silly but powerful concept I keep punting around is the idea of the Whale Wizard

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species) is an incredibly potent race for a melee character, getting a massive bonus to strength, natural armor, and naturally having Large size (which is a bonus to a bunch of different combat maneuvers like tripping and grappling). Also notably, they do not get a penalty to Intelligence.

Combine that with a level of Conjuration-specialist Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt (PHBII), and a level of your favorite martial class for martial weapon proficiencies, and you have a Whale that is teleporting around and smacking people in the face. At ECL 6, you'll be primed to enter Abjurant Champion at your next level (which keeps both BAB and Spellcasting progression).

[Forrestfire]

I'm personally a big fan of any of the full 1-20 builds in my ranger guide, but especially the ones labeled "The Cooler Duskblade" (https://hexdrake.support/example_builds/#build6gish) and "Enemy-to-Surface Missile System" (https://hexdrake.support/example_builds/#build4javelin) if you want some very novel martial builds.

[vasilidor]

I like Rogue/Warlock. Not actually all that powerful, but some of the Warlock abilities synergize well and sneak attack applies to the eldritch blast so you don't lose much in the way of damage all of the time, just most. I had fun playing this before.

[Anthrowhale]

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species) is an incredibly potent race for a melee character, getting a massive bonus to strength, natural armor, and naturally having Large size (which is a bonus to a bunch of different combat maneuvers like tripping and grappling). Also notably, they do not get a penalty to Intelligence.

Combine that with a level of Conjuration-specialist Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt (PHBII), and a level of your favorite martial class for martial weapon proficiencies, and you have a Whale that is teleporting around and smacking people in the face. At ECL 6, you'll be primed to enter Abjurant Champion at your next level (which keeps both BAB and Spellcasting progression).

Taking that further you could be a large Primordial Giant Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale tiny Muckdweller Whale 3/Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Shaper of Form 1/<your choice>

Then, you are a Muckdweller as strong as a whale with BAB+7 and full casting at ECL9 in a party of ECL 12, so you'll catch up rapidly.

[Nikorasuko]

I tend to lean towards some sort of magical build of some kind. Even if I'm playing a normal fighter I'd want to give him Soulmelds from Magic of Incarnum. You can give him Incarnate weapon, impulse boots, and wind cloak effectively making him a jedi.

Although honestly an actual fun idea is simply to try to hoard as many soulmelds as possible on your character. It will make you look absolutely monstrous. Well in a transparent hard to look at all the stuff badly messing together sort of thing. Could be real fun roleplay wise with making an incarnate that keeps getting the bonus soulmeld feat which has no limit on.

[RNightstalker]

I had a lot of fun playing an arcane trickster. I took a 1 level cleric dip for the luck domain granted power, then went into fortune's friend PrC before doing wizard to be able to qualify for Arcane Trickster. If I could do it again I'd go Human Paragon instead of Wizard for the extra (luck) feat. That would get you 6th level spells, 5D6 SA, and 13 luck rerolls at level 20 before adding any with items. If you're lucky, your DM will let you do a divine trickster to do the PrC with divine casting instead of arcane. That would net you 7th level spells and another D6 SA at level 20.

[Nikorasuko]

I had a lot of fun playing an arcane trickster. I took a 1 level cleric dip for the luck domain granted power, then went into fortune's friend PrC before doing wizard to be able to qualify for Arcane Trickster. If I could do it again I'd go Human Paragon instead of Wizard for the extra (luck) feat. That would get you 6th level spells, 5D6 SA, and 13 luck rerolls at level 20 before adding any with items. If you're lucky, your DM will let you do a divine trickster to do the PrC with divine casting instead of arcane. That would net you 7th level spells and another D6 SA at level 20.

To make the Arcane Trickster divine instead doesn't sound game breaking to me. That's actually a fun concept. Although I do feel the class features would have to change to a more appropriate divine feel rather than arcane. In the end you're making a Divine Trickster homebrew class. For example changing the rogue-ish arcane mage hand to having an animal companion mouse that can pick locks for you.

[Maat Mons]

The easiest way to have an "animal companion" that can pick locks is to use that Druid ACF that replaces your Animal Companion with a pseudo Familiar. Since Familiars can use your skills you pick a monkey as your "familiar" for the opposable thumbs. The hard part is getting the monkey Trapfinding, so you can offload all the dangerous work to a disposable minion.

[Inevitability]

The easiest way to have an "animal companion" that can pick locks is to use that Druid ACF that replaces your Animal Companion with a pseudo Familiar. Since Familiars can use your skills you pick a monkey as your "familiar" for the opposable thumbs. The hard part is getting the monkey Trapfinding, so you can offload all the dangerous work to a disposable minion.

If you've already found the traps (say, with your own trapfinding), you only need trapfinding to disable magic traps. Aka, the kind that can be negated with a single dispel. Melvin the Monkey can be assigned to any mundane stuff and for the rest you just buy a few cheap wands.

[vasilidor]

Human: rogue 2, Sorcerer 3, Fortunes Fool 5, Unseen Seer 10 Final caster level is sorcerer 15. Gets a lot of skill points and magic bridges the gap where your skills fall short. Luck feats are just a fun concept, some of them are actually decent.

[RNightstalker]

Fortunes Fool 5

Never heard of that one. Source?

[vasilidor]

Never heard of that one. Source?

Complete Scoundrel. It is a prestige class that is not actually that good, but I want it to be good. It winds up being an add on to an otherwise solid build.

[Wildstag]

Take Ranger, use the Solitary Hunter ACF and a broadly applicable Favored Enemy option, such as undead (or if your GM allows it... "Foreign merchants and clerics"), then get your bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. Feats such as Power Attack and Favored Power Attack enhance your ability to do static damage. Build into a Leap Attack focus and you're a wonderful shock-trooping Ranger (without actually taking Shock trooper).

Alternatively, I'm a fan of Hengeyokai Warshapers, since with your first 4 levels in a full BAB class, your 5th level grants you critical hit immunity and sneak attack immunity, great attack options, and all with the ability to blend in with normal human scenes.

[Anthrowhale]

In a party with (say) a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid, playing a Spellthief can be pretty fun with cooperative allies. For any individual combat, if the party needs an extra wizard (for example), the Spellthief can oblige. And of course the Spellthief can potentially combo personal spells from multiple sources.

[RNightstalker]

Complete Scoundrel. It is a prestige class that is not actually that good, but I want it to be good. It winds up being an add on to an otherwise solid build.

I know of Fortune's Friend.

[vasilidor]

My brain registered it as "Fortune's Fool".

[Lorddenorstrus]

I mean, when I had a DM instead of being stuck as DM. The last fun character I played was Gestalt... and allowed pretty much anything. So I made a Warlock/Cleric that went into Eldritch Disciple//Crusader. Was a fun char. The crusader part probably wasn't necessary but the idea was a Melee Cleric and the Disciple let me slap Invocations to spells so I was able to basically Chain heal people from a huge range in case of emergency. Not.. exactly an optimized character concept in the grand scheme of power? But it was certainly an interesting character.

That's the thing 3.5... has just so many options it's impossible to think of and keep track of them all. Can do pretty much anything.

[Inevitability]

Something that came to mind, the musketball (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910399&postcount=26) build I made for the E6 build competition.

It requires some adapting for a non-E6 environment, but the core idea is as simple as urban druid + any small sized race, and you get to drive a car around! Completely rules-legal!

[Wildstag]

It's mildly dorky, but there's a way to play Llyan from The Chronicles of Prydain. Pick your race as Tibbit. Then choose two levels in a full-bab base class. I prefer Ftr1/Barb1. Then qualify for Stoneblessed (Goliath). By level 3, you count as a Goliath for racial prerequisites.

Now retrain your Barb1 level to use the Goliath Barbarian racial substitution level. Pick up Mountain Rage. Now when you rage, you gain +6 Strength and become a Large creature. You are now playing Llyan.

[RNightstalker]

That's the thing 3.5... has just so many options it's impossible to think of and keep track of them all. Can do pretty much anything.

That's what makes 3ish edition awesome...I'm not on the 5th edition board much but I notice the numbers of posts and this one has way more far and away.

[Jopustopin]

"Binger" - Monk 2 / Warblade 4 (going drunken master). Cobra strike variant. Lion Tribe warrior, mage slayer. Charges, punches, drinks.

[Bonzai]

I had a crazy cat lady build.
Mongrel Folk Druid 1/wizard 1/Sorc 1/Totemist 2/Beastmaster 10
Pertinent feats: wild companion, share soulmeld

The wizard and Sorcerer levels sub out their familiar for animal companions. Wild companion basically gives you another. In a nutshell, this build will give you up to 8 animal companions. You use share soulmeld, with the Manticore Belt bound to their totem Chakra. Maxed out, you will be able to fire off 72 spines a round. That is maxed out, but the combo is engaged at level 5, with 4 cats. Between them and you, that is at least 10 possible d6 damage attacks.

Mongrelfolk wasn't integral to the build, but drives home the crazy cat lady aesthetic.

[Temotei]

It's mildly dorky, but there's a way to play Llyan from The Chronicles of Prydain. Pick your race as Tibbit. Then choose two levels in a full-bab base class. I prefer Ftr1/Barb1. Then qualify for Stoneblessed (Goliath). By level 3, you count as a Goliath for racial prerequisites.

Now retrain your Barb1 level to use the Goliath Barbarian racial substitution level. Pick up Mountain Rage. Now when you rage, you gain +6 Strength and become a Large creature. You are now playing Llyan.

Since the tibbit explicitly takes a "-8 penalty to Strength" upon transforming, soulborn 2 can give you immunity to that if you're Chaotic Evil. Funny interaction.

[Morphic tide]

Artificer 1/Kaorti 2/LA +2/Fiend of Possession 2/Artificer +4 has funny uses with the Web Enhancement (https://web.archive.org/web/20150910020412/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) that defines Kaorti ribbon weapons as a special material. Because it allows you to replace the normal GP cost of making Masterwork weapons and armor with 50% the market price in XP, and go down to 35% the base cost at 1 XP=5 GP as a replacement Magic Item crafting procedure. This means that when Retain Essence destroys anything made this way, you get back everything you spent on the base item and lose 65% less GP on the magic.

The ordering here is not-quite-RAW backstory abuse of Vile Transformation to have the Kaorti RHD fulfil the Fiend of Possession skill requirements for a clean early entry. At-will Etherealness at ECL 6 is lovely, free floating enhancements are great even at +2, Bestow Curse on contact may function as an on-hit effect, and hiding yourself in one of your items lets your cheap-to-change arsenal be carried through a lot of things. Artificer +8 gets you to CL 15 item requirements like 8th level spells and making them Intelligent, with LA buyoff letting you also reach FoP 5.

[vasilidor]

A build i want to try is to do Sorcerer 5, Fighter 5, Spell Sword 10. Mostly I just want casting on a guy in full plate for some utility stuff. Is this a great build? no. I figure it would function well enough for premade adventures or low op campaigns though.

[titaniumskittle]

Vampire spawn monster class is pretty fun. Ask your DM what you could do to gain unholy toughness to give you more hp but past that it's a good time

[pabelfly]

A build i want to try is to do Sorcerer 5, Fighter 5, Spell Sword 10. Mostly I just want casting on a guy in full plate for some utility stuff. Is this a great build? no. I figure it would function well enough for premade adventures or low op campaigns though.

Arcane casting in heavy armor is a surprisingly commonly-asked question. I even did a thread myself:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?644858-Best-way-to-get-arcane-casting-in-heavy-armor

Short version: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer + Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor (MIC) is heavy armor that counts as light while you can cast in what's effectively full plate armor without any issue. Probably the easiest way to do it.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer + Battle Caster lets you cast in medium armor without issue, and a material like mithral reduces heavy armor to medium armor.

Armored Savant (Fighter ACF, Dragon Magazine) halves your ASF before you use ASF-reducing stuff like blended quartz, thistledown padding, twilight enchant, and so forth.

There's more suggestions in the thread, if those don't work for you.

[Darg]

Don't forget straight up martial casting PrCs like Knight of the Weave or Suel Arcanamach which give alternate casting while not needing the ability to cast in the first place.

Then again, Still Spell is exceptionally valid for casting in armor if going for a traditional gish. People on these boards complain about it, but it's still a lot of access for casting in plate/tower shield. Even a traditional eldritch knight ends up with 15 BAB and up to 9th level spells, or stilled up to 8th. And not every spell needs to be stilled either. Some spells you cast at the beginning of the day, other times you use some spells for out of combat utility where you have time to remove your failure chances. The real hard part is finding ways to game the action economy to let you cast and attack in a round (which is what makes spellsword so appealing even with its 5/10 casting.)(Funnily enough, spellsword is basically indirect proof that rainbow servant is a 6/10 casting PrC, but that's off topic.)

[rel]

Item wielder is a class of build that only really saw support in 3.5, not even pathfinder 1 had much allowance for it.
In combat you primarily use consumables to contribute; wands for blasting, potions, scrolls and so forth.
Since your power comes largely from the items you craft and carry, rather than directly from class features, your powers don't refresh per encounter, or even per day, but per Adventure.
Eventually, after days of adventuring, you start running out of wand charges and potions and need to go back to town to sell loot and craft more gear.

It's a very different way of playing, dependent on finding enough money and periodic downtime time to keep going but largely immune to running out of gas in the short term.

Good base classes are caster types like wizard or artificer, and good prc's enhance item use; wand adept, alchemist savant, unseen seer (for sneak attack), etc.

[SimonMoon6]

Here's a build I was toying around with for a while:

I wanted to have a tiny PC. That's doable. But the boring optimal thing to do with a tiny PC is to make them a spellcaster. Spells don't care what size you are and then you just get AC and "to hit" bonuses from being tiny. But I felt that went against the spirit of being a tiny PC. So, I tried to make a tiny melee character.

So, what's the character's race? Could be jermlaine or muckdweller. I picked jermlaine. Their stat modifiers are Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6. Again, that seems pretty bad for a melee character. You could make a great druid. Maybe even an archer with that DEX. But... yuck.

Okay, so ingredient #2 is templates to improve on that STR and CON. I went through a long process to figure out what would work. Here's what I chose:


First, we apply inherited templates. The main one I want here is Unseelie Fey.

So, in addition to possibly gaining wings, we have these stat modifiers At LA+0:

STR: -10, DEX: +8, CON: -4, INT: -2, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

We seem to be going in the wrong direction, but that's fine. Next, the character takes a level of barbarian and then gets some templates that are not inherited. The first one is Dustform. This turns our fey into a construct and our stat mods (at LA: +2) are now:

STR: -6, DEX: +6, CON: --, INT: --, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

At this point, our alignment has changed from evil to neutral (but we must also still be non-lawful because barbarian). Then, of course, we take Incarnate Construct to turn the construct into a humanoid, giving us the following for stats (at LA: +0):

STR: -6, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

Now, we haven't improved that STR modifier very much, right? But notice that we have two stats that are determined by die rolls, so we can totally dump CON and INT in our original stat rolls because they get replaced by 4d6, so in a point buy system, we have a lot more flexibility to put points in STR if we want.

But we can do more if we're willing to take on some LA. We have one more template: Lolth-Touched. Now, at LA: +1, we have the following:

STR: +0, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6+6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

So, now we're as strong as a human. That's great. And we only have one negative modifer (CHA) which we would probably want to dump anyway. In fact, we could dump INT, CON, and CHA, leaving us with only three stats where we should put a lot of points (STR, DEX to make our AC crazy, and maybe WIS for saving throws). This first level barbarian will be ECL 2 though.

Unfortunately, this does lock us in at an evil alignment once more. If that's not gonna work, here are my two possible work-arounds:

(a) I hope I can have a backstory where I talked to a CG Evangelist (class) who has a 5th level power to change my alignment. I used to be a CE jerk, a low charisma evil guy that nobody liked. Well, suddenly, now that I'm CG, I have friends, I have people who like me, maybe even people I can trust. But I can still have fun, still be chaotic. I choose to stay CG.

As a DM, I would allow this except the PC would have to pay the cost of someone using one of their class abilities. I would charge the same price as if asking someone of that level to cast the highest level spell they could cast. But many DMs might not allow that.

(b) Put the Lolth-Touched template *before* Dust Form. That means that we lose out on having the +6 to CON, so our stat modifiers would actually be:

STR: +0, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4



Okay, we have a tiny PC with STR modifier of +0. Now what?

Being tiny is great for AC and hitting but terrible for a melee combatant because *no* weapon can ever be long enough to allow a tiny PC to get reach of even 5' according to the rules. Without even 5' reach, tiny PCs have to enter people's squares to attack, meaning the enemy gets an AoO on you every single time before you can attack them once (unless you make a DC 25 Tumble check). Hopefully, crazy high AC will help.

I would be using the ACF of the Urban Barbarian to replace rage with ferocity, granting a bonus to STR and DEX (instead of CON). He gets a penalty on ranged attacks, but who cares?

And then at level 2 (ECL 3), we switch to Swordsage.

We will be using an elven courtblade (basically a great sword that you can use Weapon Finesse with, since our DEX is going to be higher than our STR). He probably should eventually do crit-fishing (get a keen weapon and the improved critical feat for greatsword since courtblade counts as greatsword for feats). I also want at least one Stone Dragon maneuver as a swordsage to get Weapon Focus in greatsword, which would mean WF in elven courtblade (unless someone wants to nitpick and say that this is only the "benefit" of the feat without actually being the feat, and courtblade only acts like a greatsword with an actual feat).

I could discuss a lot of other important choices, like stances and maneuvers and equipment (like armor and encumbrance), but now, let's talk about feats.

First of all, we need a lot probably. So, let's take two flaws for an extra feat. I choose Shaky and Weak Will. Then, I take two traits to move the penalties around. I choose Detached and Plucky. The overall effect is: -1 to all saves and -2 to ranged combat. This forces us even more into "pure melee".

That means that at 1st level, I'll have two feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade) and Weapon Finesse. Here are my thoughts for later feats:

At ECL 4 (level 3), take the Aberration Blood feat (+2 spot).
At ECL 5 (level 4), take a level of fighter for Improved Crit.
At ECL 6 (level 5), back to swordsage?
AT ECL 7 (level 6), take the Inhuman Reach [Aberrant] feat. This gives +5 reach but -1 to all melee attacks, which hurts but we should have enough bonuses to hit to make up for no longer having to move into someone's square to make a melee attack.

[pabelfly]

Here's a build I was toying around with for a while:

I wanted to have a tiny PC. That's doable. But the boring optimal thing to do with a tiny PC is to make them a spellcaster. Spells don't care what size you are and then you just get AC and "to hit" bonuses from being tiny. But I felt that went against the spirit of being a tiny PC. So, I tried to make a tiny melee character.

So, what's the character's race? Could be jermlaine or muckdweller. I picked jermlaine. Their stat modifiers are Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6. Again, that seems pretty bad for a melee character. You could make a great druid. Maybe even an archer with that DEX. But... yuck.

Okay, so ingredient #2 is templates to improve on that STR and CON. I went through a long process to figure out what would work. Here's what I chose:


First, we apply inherited templates. The main one I want here is Unseelie Fey.

So, in addition to possibly gaining wings, we have these stat modifiers At LA+0:

STR: -10, DEX: +8, CON: -4, INT: -2, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

We seem to be going in the wrong direction, but that's fine. Next, the character takes a level of barbarian and then gets some templates that are not inherited. The first one is Dustform. This turns our fey into a construct and our stat mods (at LA: +2) are now:

STR: -6, DEX: +6, CON: --, INT: --, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

At this point, our alignment has changed from evil to neutral (but we must also still be non-lawful because barbarian). Then, of course, we take Incarnate Construct to turn the construct into a humanoid, giving us the following for stats (at LA: +0):

STR: -6, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

Now, we haven't improved that STR modifier very much, right? But notice that we have two stats that are determined by die rolls, so we can totally dump CON and INT in our original stat rolls because they get replaced by 4d6, so in a point buy system, we have a lot more flexibility to put points in STR if we want.

But we can do more if we're willing to take on some LA. We have one more template: Lolth-Touched. Now, at LA: +1, we have the following:

STR: +0, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6+6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4

So, now we're as strong as a human. That's great. And we only have one negative modifer (CHA) which we would probably want to dump anyway. In fact, we could dump INT, CON, and CHA, leaving us with only three stats where we should put a lot of points (STR, DEX to make our AC crazy, and maybe WIS for saving throws). This first level barbarian will be ECL 2 though.

Unfortunately, this does lock us in at an evil alignment once more. If that's not gonna work, here are my two possible work-arounds:

(a) I hope I can have a backstory where I talked to a CG Evangelist (class) who has a 5th level power to change my alignment. I used to be a CE jerk, a low charisma evil guy that nobody liked. Well, suddenly, now that I'm CG, I have friends, I have people who like me, maybe even people I can trust. But I can still have fun, still be chaotic. I choose to stay CG.

As a DM, I would allow this except the PC would have to pay the cost of someone using one of their class abilities. I would charge the same price as if asking someone of that level to cast the highest level spell they could cast. But many DMs might not allow that.

(b) Put the Lolth-Touched template *before* Dust Form. That means that we lose out on having the +6 to CON, so our stat modifiers would actually be:

STR: +0, DEX: +6, CON: 4d6, INT: 4d6, WIS: +6, CHA: -4



Okay, we have a tiny PC with STR modifier of +0. Now what?

Being tiny is great for AC and hitting but terrible for a melee combatant because *no* weapon can ever be long enough to allow a tiny PC to get reach of even 5' according to the rules. Without even 5' reach, tiny PCs have to enter people's squares to attack, meaning the enemy gets an AoO on you every single time before you can attack them once (unless you make a DC 25 Tumble check). Hopefully, crazy high AC will help.

I would be using the ACF of the Urban Barbarian to replace rage with ferocity, granting a bonus to STR and DEX (instead of CON). He gets a penalty on ranged attacks, but who cares?

And then at level 2 (ECL 3), we switch to Swordsage.

We will be using an elven courtblade (basically a great sword that you can use Weapon Finesse with, since our DEX is going to be higher than our STR). He probably should eventually do crit-fishing (get a keen weapon and the improved critical feat for greatsword since courtblade counts as greatsword for feats). I also want at least one Stone Dragon maneuver as a swordsage to get Weapon Focus in greatsword, which would mean WF in elven courtblade (unless someone wants to nitpick and say that this is only the "benefit" of the feat without actually being the feat, and courtblade only acts like a greatsword with an actual feat).

I could discuss a lot of other important choices, like stances and maneuvers and equipment (like armor and encumbrance), but now, let's talk about feats.

First of all, we need a lot probably. So, let's take two flaws for an extra feat. I choose Shaky and Weak Will. Then, I take two traits to move the penalties around. I choose Detached and Plucky. The overall effect is: -1 to all saves and -2 to ranged combat. This forces us even more into "pure melee".

That means that at 1st level, I'll have two feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade) and Weapon Finesse. Here are my thoughts for later feats:

At ECL 4 (level 3), take the Aberration Blood feat (+2 spot).
At ECL 5 (level 4), take a level of fighter for Improved Crit.
At ECL 6 (level 5), back to swordsage?
AT ECL 7 (level 6), take the Inhuman Reach [Aberrant] feat. This gives +5 reach but -1 to all melee attacks, which hurts but we should have enough bonuses to hit to make up for no longer having to move into someone's square to make a melee attack.

If you want a Tiny melee character, and entering other people's squares triggers an attack of opportunity, what about an attack of opportunity build? Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike requires you to be actually taking the hits from opponents, but you're getting two in return.

[SimonMoon6]

If you want a Tiny melee character, and entering other people's squares triggers an attack of opportunity, what about an attack of opportunity build? Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike requires you to be actually taking the hits from opponents, but you're getting two in return.

I'll admit that I had not considered those feats. Someone else making a similar build might want to consider them.

For me in particular, though, I would avoid them as (a) this build is feat starved... though I guess, if someone didn't want to go the route of getting reach to avoid AoOs, they could get rid of the two Aberrant feats to take those feats instead but also (b) this build has a really good AC and might be relying on that, while not having great HP (being a level behind and having a CON that's dependent on dice rolls... could be 30 but also could be 10... or even 4 if Lolth-Touched has to come before Dust Form). So, without great HP, it might not be ideal to choose to take hits.

Avoiding hits should be easier with an AC based on a starting DEX of 20 (assuming a point buy 14 can be put in DEX) plus 4 for "urban rage", so a DEX mod of +7, then a size mod of +4, and natural armor of +3, for an AC of 24 at 1st level even before considering armor (though armor provides only half the usual bonus for tiny characters and it's difficult to get armor with a +7 or higher DEX mod allowed... we're into considering a mithral chain shirt of nimbleness or thistledown padded or gnome twist cloth armor or bondleaf wrap, etc, though celestial armor is still a good choice (when it can be afforded)... ideally, a friendly wizard might cast mage armor for +4 AC... or we could buy potions of mage armor. If we can get mage armor, that would boost us to a 28 AC, still possible at 1st level. And swordsage can give even more AC bonuses later.

[rel]

There's also the underfoot combat / confound the big folk feat chain for small fighters.

[SimonMoon6]

There's also the underfoot combat / confound the big folk feat chain for small fighters.

Yes, those are excellent suggestions, though the requirement of 10 ranks of Tumble does mean that they can't be taken until at least 7th level (but more likely, 9th and then 12th level).

[Inevitability]

Yes, those are excellent suggestions, though the requirement of 10 ranks of Tumble does mean that they can't be taken until at least 7th level (but more likely, 9th and then 12th level).

A Halfling Monk with the RotW substitution level can take Underfoot Combat as level 1 bonus feat, which puts Confound the Big Folk easily obtainable at level 9, or level 7 if you can figure out how to take a feat at an arbitrary moment (marshall, dragonborn, desert wind dodge, savant 2, etc).

[RNightstalker]

To make the Arcane Trickster divine instead doesn't sound game breaking to me. That's actually a fun concept. Although I do feel the class features would have to change to a more appropriate divine feel rather than arcane. In the end you're making a Divine Trickster homebrew class. For example changing the rogue-ish arcane mage hand to having an animal companion mouse that can pick locks for you.

The only thing I could see changing to a divine build would be to possibly allow for burning turn attempts on lockpicking, disabling traps, etc.