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BRC
2007-12-16, 12:36 AM
So I was browsing the SRD for some reason and I came across the a monster race with the highest benefit/LA ratio, almost disgustingly so. A race that recieves countless bonuses for only a miniscule level adjustment, a race that has been hiding in obscurity.
I mean of course, the bugbear. Take a look at what the SRD has to say about Bugbears as characters


Bugbears As Characters
Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
+3 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.
Level adjustment +1.

So for a level adjustment of 1 you get, 2 feats, 3d8 average HP, +2 BAB, lots of stat bonuses with the only minus being in Charisma, the munchkiners dump stat, a not-to shabby natural armor bonus. Lets say you had a bugbear 1st level fighter, with the nonelite array and under 500 gp in gear arranged reasonably he could have have
16 Str(+3), 14 Con (+2), 13 dex (+1), 10 int, 9 wis, 6 cha.
he would have (1d10+3d8+2) Hit points, which averages out to 24. A BAB of 3, which gives him a +6 on meelee attacks with a one handed weapon. Also, with a longsword he would have an average damage of 7, just alone he has an AC of 14, but with some banded mail and a heavy sheild, neither of which are too expensive, I don't know the WBL system but I'm preety sure a 2nd level character can afford those, his AC is 22 and this is on a 2nd level character! He also gets 3 feats.
Now, A challenging encounter for a Human fighter (2nd level) is CR 1/2, for this bugbear a challenging encounter is twice that. That would be, according to the encounter calculator, 2 hobgoblins. A hobgoblin has a Total attack bonus of +2 with melee weapons, which means that it needs a natural 20 just to hit our bugbear here at all.
Now lets assume everything goes 100% statistical, and that all rolls are average.
those 2 hobgoblins are both attacking him every turn, meaning that statistically they will beat his AC once every 10 turns, since each has a one in twenty chance of hitting him every turn. If they do hit him, assuming average damage, each time they hit him he will take 5 damage from his 24HP, meaning they need to hit him 5 times to get him to negetives. According to straight probability, it will take them 50 turns to kill him.
Meanwhile, those hobgoblins have an AC of 15 and 6 HP, so our bugbear, who deals 7 average damage with his longsword, can one-shot them with ease. He also gets +6 on every attack, meaning that he hits them on a nine or above. this means that he will hit 11 out of 20 times he attacks them. in short, theres a good chance that he will be able to down this "Challenging" encounter without taking any damage at all.
So yeah, bugbears are overpowered.

hamstard4ever
2007-12-16, 12:47 AM
Racial hit dice count towards levels; bugbears are 4th level characters before they receive their first class level. Your 1st level bugbear fighter is equivalent with a 5th level human fighter or a 4th level hobgoblin fighter, either of which will quite probably wipe the floor with the bugbear (even considering the legendary crappiness of hobgoblin LA).

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-16, 12:57 AM
The best +1 LA pound-for-pound is probably the Mineral Warrior template: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e.

ocato
2007-12-16, 01:17 AM
I think you are misunderstanding the racial hitdie. The level 1 Bugbear fighter is actually L4, ECL L5. He's a L3 Bugbear/L1 Fighter. So while the L2 Fighter has a good AC and a good + to hit, he's technically supposed to be the equivalent of a L6 character, and is one-shotting hobgoblins as he should be. Don't get me wrong, Bugbears aren't bad, but there's a different comparison here.

Let's say a Human Fighter 6 vs a Bugbear fighter 2. Both are ECL 6. We'll go with a 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8 array. So, the Bugbear probably has

STR 16 (base) + 4 (racial) + 1 (ECL 4 bump) = 21 (+5)
DEX 12 (base) + 2 (racial) = 14 (+2)
CON 14 (base) + 2 (racial) = 16 (+3)
INT 10 (+0)
WIS 12 (+1)
CHA 8 (base) -2 (racial)= 6 (-2)

So, 3d8+9+2d10+6 HP= 42. He gets +2 BaB from his racial hit dice and +2 BaB from his fighter levels, giving him +4 BaB total. So with a +1 weapon (not unheard of at ECL 6) he's rocking a +9 to hit. With a Breastplate and assuming a two handed weapon (no shield), he's looking at an AC of 10+5(bp)+2(dex)+ 3(nat armor)= 20. Let's say he's got a Greatsword. So that's 2d6 + 7 (1 1/2 STR) +1 (weapon)= 16 damage a hit.

The human fighter 6 is probably going to use a similar spread.

STR 16 (+3)
DEX 12 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0)
WIS 12 (+1)
CHA 8 (-1)

His HP is going to look like 6d10+12, or about 48. He has a straight +6/+1 Base attack bonus. With the same +1 weapon, he'll be swinging for +10/+5. With the same breastplate, his AC is about 10+5(bp)+1(dex)= 16, which is pretty lame. Granted, with a 12 on DEX, he'd probably use full plate and then have 10+ 8(FP) +1 (DEX)= 19, which is still lower than the bugbear. The greatsword wielding human looks at 2d6 + 4 (1 1/2 STR)+ 1(weapon) is about 13 damage.

So the bugbear hits less often but for more damage and has a higher Armor class. I think that the bugbear is then roughly in the same boat as a +0 LA class. I'd say Bugbears are good, but not ZOMG burn them! They are overpowered!

My 2cp.

Reinboom
2007-12-16, 01:21 AM
Fire-Souled is also a great trade for 1 LA.
Free leadership, +4 Charisma, immunity to stunning and daze.
gives free morale bonus to allies within 10'.
and a couple other abilities.

Lolth touched from monster manual 4 is also great.
+6 str and con, +4 to hide and MS, and immunity to fear.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-16, 01:25 AM
Yup...the LA modifier is stacked on top of their hit dice and class levels to determine the effective character level, or ECL of the monster. So yes, a bugbear with one level in fighter would have an ECL of (3 HD+1 level+1 LA) = 5 ECL.

They would start the game using the XP progression starting from the amount from 5-6, or 5k to level up to 2nd level.

Doing the math on progression, a bugbear will outpace a 'base' race in terms of ECL at any given experience until around lvl 17.

Dode
2007-12-16, 01:29 AM
Going to second Lolth-Touched.

brian c
2007-12-16, 01:47 AM
Feral is very very good, assuming the DM rules that the HD-dependent abilities count HDs gained by level and not just racial. If it's only racial then it's a balanced template, but otherwise it's just giving away Pounce, Rend, Rake, Improved Grab, Scent, Darkvision, Natural Armor, good melee ability adjustments, and Fast Healing for a LA +1

BRC
2007-12-16, 01:48 AM
Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.

Seffbasilisk
2007-12-16, 02:07 AM
I personally like Blooded One from Unapproachable East.

Nat Armor +2
War Cry
+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int

Bonus feat: Combat Reflexes.

Reinboom
2007-12-16, 02:24 AM
Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.

They are separate but together.
It's a bit confusing to get at first, but, that +1 LA is still there. It's still 1 blank level.

The bugbear is ECL 4, 3 HD + 1 LA.
That's the use of LA.

(It's still a badly implemented system, however)

Dhavaer
2007-12-16, 02:34 AM
Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.

Because LA is what you add to HD to determine ECL. Not LA + class levels.

Armads
2007-12-16, 03:24 AM
Fire-Souled is also a great trade for 1 LA.
Free leadership, +4 Charisma, immunity to stunning and daze.
gives free morale bonus to allies within 10'.
and a couple other abilities.

I think Fire Souled's LA is actually 3. It's one of the errors on crystal keep.

Reinboom
2007-12-16, 03:27 AM
I think Fire Souled's LA is actually 3. It's one of the errors on crystal keep.

Ah, ok, that sucks. Thank you for pointing that out.

At least I made sure to check the other one. :smalleek:

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-16, 03:28 AM
Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.
Basically, Racial HD are an additional penalty to taking the race as a character; they're useless compared to class levels, but not as bad as another X LA (and actually, Outsider or Dragon hit dice are pretty good.) They also represent that some monsters are significantly tougher than humans and their ilk just through natural ability.

As for my favorite LA +1? Screw it, if you want to sacrifice a level, take a level in Sorcerer. Even if you only have 11 Cha, there's plenty of level 1 spells that are nifty to have.

Reinboom
2007-12-16, 03:30 AM
Basically, Racial HD are an additional penalty to taking the race as a character; they're useless compared to class levels, but not as bad as another X LA (and actually, Outsider or Dragon hit dice are pretty good.) They also represent that some monsters are significantly tougher than humans and their ilk just through natural ability.

As for my favorite LA +1? Screw it, if you want to sacrifice a level, take a level in Sorcerer. Even if you only have 11 Cha, there's plenty of level 1 spells that are nifty to have.

and 2.5 + HP, and +2 to will saves, and 2+ int skill points, and 1/3 of a feat, and 1/4 of a stat, and max skill ranks increase and...

The issue, however:
Multiclassing experience penalties.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-16, 03:39 AM
Humans for the win.

daggaz
2007-12-16, 08:40 AM
Monsters get Racial HitDie to fill them out, buffing them up to an appropriate strength, without using class levels. Once they get to about how physically strong they should be (hps, bab, saves) what is left over is then balanced out by LA, which is just a pure empty placeholder.

WHat the LA is placeholding is the extra abilities (NA, DR, spelllike abilities, size, reach, special attacks, etc etc..) that werent really compensated by RHD because that would have made the mosnter too strong. It basically exists only to bump up their ECL so the DM can make an accurate prediction using the CR system. Unfortunately, the whole system is burdensome and rife with problems.

So RHD and LA both compensate for extra abilities, but RHD also buff the monster in their own right, and LA is just a blank slot to pump up the CR to an appropriate level.

For example, take giants... you could give them 0 LA and all RHD so they end up with the same ECL, but then you have a monster with FAR more hps, higher BaB, and better saves than the original, and hence, the CR is much higher.

Anyhow, for a race that is worth every last xp point of their +1LA, you should take a look at duergar.

kamikasei
2007-12-16, 09:16 AM
For example, take giants... you could give them 0 LA and all RHD so they end up with the same ECL, but then you have a monster with FAR more hps, higher BaB, and better saves than the original, and hence, the CR is much higher.

I think I see what you're saying here, but it's phrased in a very backwards manner.

A monster is created by a designer. The monster has such-and-such abilities. It's a decent challenge for a party of level X, so it's CR X. It may have more or fewer than X HD, depending on its other abilities and how much they alter the challenge it poses.

HD come first.

If someone then wants to play that monster as a character, they'll be getting its Y HD and resultant BAB, saves, HP etc. They'll also be getting other abilites, such as ability score bonuses/penalties, special attacks, special qualities, type traits, etc. Depending on the monster, these may balance out; Goblins and Orcs, say, have enough of a mix of good and bad qualities that they're +0 LA. Other monsters have abilities that make them better than a humanoid of Y class levels, so they get some LA. LA comes after HD in the design process.

This is why people looking at RHD + LA + ECL get confused. It's not a clean or sensible system. It's not designed from the ground up to achieve a clear purpose. A monster's Hit Die are part of its existence as a monster for heroes to fight. If people want to play it as a character, then LA gets brought in and, as a tacked-on fix for something that wasn't really intended by the designers to be viable, it plays badly and makes you weaker than your buddies.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-16, 09:53 AM
My favorite +1 LA templates are either Draconic (Draconomicon) or Dark Creature (Tome of Magic). They don't supply insane supernatural abilities or any spell-like abilities, but they're concise, to the point, and they've got some nice (mostly-passive) benefits. Applied to a human or other standard, non-HD/La race, they can be bought off for a mere 3,000 XP if you're using the Reducing Level Adjustments variant from Unearthed Arcana (my preferred ruleset includes this option). Using this variant, you'll likely catch up to your party level-wise rather quickly.

Draconic adds a respectable +2 Str, Con, and Cha as well as a natural weapon (albeit weak), Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, some natural armor, a small bonus to Spot and Intimidate, and a bonus to certain saves. Good, mostly, for melee characters and Cha-based casters (especially hexblades). Plus, if you're going for Dragonblood feats and such, you automatically qualify (Races of the Dragon adds the Dragonblooded subtype to creatures with the Draconic template).

Dark Creature adds +10 ft. to all movement rates, 10 points of cold resistance (not bad, although perhaps a bit circumstantial), healthly bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, and Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) as long as you're not in sunlight or daylight. Great for a stealth-based character of any class.

The Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness is also nice, but perhaps a bit more abusable because it adds new abilities (including the possibility of fast healing and plane shift) every 4 HD - more likely to be nerfed or banned by some DM's.

Arbitrarity
2007-12-16, 10:58 AM
The original half-minotaur?

Wasn't that something like +16 str on a normal creature, and large size?

#Raptor
2007-12-16, 11:24 AM
Aasimar seems nice for paladins.

Orc and Ogre also look quite nice for barbarian/fighter types, imho.
Altough being 'dazzled' in sunlight is slightly annyoing for orcs, and ogres basically have to put 14 into int (well, that, or someone in the group constantly has to translate common to giant...).

Oh and.. whatya think about pixie for cha/skillmonkey rogues and bards?

/E: Err, wait, this was about LA +1... nvm the part about ogres and pixies. /E2: and orcs, for that matter. They don't have LA.

SoD
2007-12-16, 11:30 AM
Well, for a +1 LA you can be a catgirl.

:smallamused:

BRC
2007-12-16, 12:26 PM
Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?

Ashes
2007-12-16, 01:05 PM
Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?

My group used to do that back when we still bothered with monstrous NPCs. In general, it doesn't really hurt that much, but in some cases it will overpower the character. Adjudicate on a case-by-case basis.

martyboy74
2007-12-16, 01:44 PM
Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?

That's often a bad idea, because the LA is balanced against the HD. For example, if you cut a Minotaur's HD off, you'd still get +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha, large size, monstrous humanoid type, +5 natural armor, natural cunning, scent, and powerful charge (4d6+6), starting as a thrid level character. That'd be a monster.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-16, 01:54 PM
Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?
No, don't do this. The racial HD are part of the penalty for taking a powerful race, just like Level Adjustment. Getting rid of them and letting people take class levels instead is unbalancing.

If you want to play a monstrous race at a lower level, check out the monstrous racial progressions in Savage Species, which give you your abilities and racial HD gradually and allow you to play, for example, a level 1 Ogre who's smaller and has lower ability bonuses, but grows into the normal Ogre abilities by "taking levels in Ogre".

bugsysservant
2007-12-16, 02:26 PM
Wasn't there a template in Dragon, white dragon spawn or something, which granted you a level of sorceror for +1 LA. Come on, you're not even TRYING to balance that one out.

Chronos
2007-12-16, 03:02 PM
Dark Creature adds +10 ft. to all movement rates, 10 points of cold resistance (not bad, although perhaps a bit circumstantial), healthly bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, and Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) as long as you're not in sunlight or daylight. Great for a stealth-based character of any class.Whoa, Dark's version of HiPS is (ex)!? That template is even awesomer than I'd thought. I'd go so far as to say that any stealthy character should take that, even if LA buyoff isn't allowed: The total of +14 to very useful skills is almost enough to justify it by itself, and it just gets better from there.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-18, 07:45 AM
The Shadow-Walker template from FRCS Unapproachable East is interesting with a Rogue, Ninja, Psychic Rogue, Factotum or combination of the classes and taking the Telfammer Shadowlord PRC.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-18, 07:55 AM
White Dragonspawn from the Dragonlance CS, for any sorc and anyone that wants a caster level, flight, +7 Nat Armour, breath attack, access to dragon feats, low light/dark vision, +2 dex and con, .... it rules for Sorcs.

sikyon
2007-12-18, 07:58 AM
No, don't do this. The racial HD are part of the penalty for taking a powerful race, just like Level Adjustment. Getting rid of them and letting people take class levels instead is unbalancing.

If you want to play a monstrous race at a lower level, check out the monstrous racial progressions in Savage Species, which give you your abilities and racial HD gradually and allow you to play, for example, a level 1 Ogre who's smaller and has lower ability bonuses, but grows into the normal Ogre abilities by "taking levels in Ogre".

I'm pretty sure that it starts to balance out at higher levels anyways though. Sort term gain, long term pain.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 08:19 AM
Wasn't there a template in Dragon, white dragon spawn or something, which granted you a level of sorceror for +1 LA. Come on, you're not even TRYING to balance that one out.

It's actually in Dragonlance and yes that thing is godawfully broken for the stat bonuses and everything else you get for a mere 1 LA.

I agree with the HD/LA system in most cases. I think the racial HD are there for not only balancing reasons, but also for the basic notion that a monster has to be "grown up" to get all it's abilities. A 1 HD Minotaur would basically be just a little kid. (By minotaur standards)

Edit: Ninja'd!

Kaelik
2007-12-18, 08:20 AM
Whoa, Dark's version of HiPS is (ex)!? That template is even awesomer than I'd thought. I'd go so far as to say that any stealthy character should take that, even if LA buyoff isn't allowed: The total of +14 to very useful skills is almost enough to justify it by itself, and it just gets better from there.

Or they could just spend 22,000gp to have the same thing. I mean, is HiPS in an AMF really that much better then a class level?

Darrin
2007-12-18, 09:54 AM
The issue, however:
Multiclassing experience penalties.

For Sorcerer? Just use the Magic-Blooded template (LA +0, -2 Wis +2 Cha).

Falrin
2007-12-18, 10:29 AM
Is it me or is 1 lvl of Cleric the best you can get in any situation?

d8 HD
+2 Fort & Will
3/4 BaB (if fractional)
2 Domains !
Some basic Casting. (Protection from Evil, Emergency healing, obscuring mist)
hvy armour prof.
Using divine scrolls, wand and other goodies.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-18, 10:52 AM
Is it me or is 1 lvl of Cleric the best you can get in any situation?

d8 HD
+2 Fort & Will
3/4 BaB (if fractional)
2 Domains !
Some basic Casting. (Protection from Evil, Emergency healing, obscuring mist)
hvy armour prof.
Using divine scrolls, wand and other goodies.

It could be 3 domains and D6 with 6 skill points without heavy armor and all knowledge skills to cleric class skills list with poor BAB going the cloistered cleric variant (of course you can't buy down a level of cleric like a template).

Ramza00
2007-12-18, 11:05 AM
The original half-minotaur?

Wasn't that something like +16 str on a normal creature, and large size?
Half Minotaur from Dragon 313
Str +4, Con +2, Int –2, Wis +2, NA +2, Darkvision, Scent, Gore attack, Track skill bonuses

If medium or small size gain 1 size category and the appropriate stat changes.
Medium to Large yields
Str +8, Dex -2 , Con +4, NA +2, -1 AC and Attacks

Thus you gain
Str +12, Dex -2, Con +6, Int -2, Wis +2, NA +4, -1 AC and Attacks, Darkvision, Scent, Gore attack, Track skill bonuses. A hairy chest, snout, and horns.
---
Me guessing what the LA should be for this template is this.
+1 LA for the normal Half Minotaur
If sizes increases from small to medium another +1 LA that makes a total of 2 LA
If size increases from medium to large an additional +2 LA for a total of 3 LA

Ramza00
2007-12-18, 11:07 AM
I have read somewhere that someone claimed that in one of the further supplements dragonspawn has some nasty roleplaying requirements about you serving evil masters and having little free will for the +1 LA. You can abandon those evil masters but then the la becomes +3.