OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[MaverickMopete]

And this is why you properly chew your food: So someone can’t cast Greater Dispel Magic and make you choke on it.

[Sky_Schemer]

Calder is having a rough day.

[Linneris]

The dragon is still alive, right? Looks like Bloodfeast was safely ejected into unoccupied space without harming him.

Which, notably, was not what happened when Darth V polymorphed after being swallowed by the ancient black dragon.

[Raven777]

Calder really should have seen this coming. XD

Common enough trope that it should probably be added to an Evil Overlord List: "I will not try to swallow a polymorphed or reduced foe. The risk of them exploding or cutting their way out of my maw or stomach in a gory mess after the magic fails and they transform back is not worth it."

[Wintermoot]

well now we have the problem of how the order will bring bloodfeast with them when they finish this fight and leave this place. But I guess, now that the Bloodfeast gun has been fired, they don't necessarily need him, so he might be Bloodfeast the deadinator by the end of this fight.

Still, awesome fight! I didn't know how much I needed a dinosaur vs dragon fight in my life until now.

[Firest Kathon]

The dragon is still alive, right? Looks like Bloodfeast was safely ejected into unoccupied space without harming him.

Which, notably, was not what happened when Darth V polymorphed after being swallowed by the ancient black dragon.

I'd say at this point Bloodfeast was still in Calder's mouth and not swallowed yet (see: his comment about chewing his feed first).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Calder is having a rough day.

Calder has been having rough decades. To be fair, he probably deserved it for the combined amount of days his thralls didn't get to have at all because of him, but still. The guy has all the reasons in the world to be absolutely livid.

[Resileaf]

Ooh, big mistake doing that within casting distance of a wizard.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, I was expecting a much gorier result here — much more along the lines of ABD’s fate against Darth V.

Probably makes sense, physics-wise, that Calder’s mouth would be the path of least resistance and it wouldn’t, like, shatter his skull.

It’s still not looking GREAT for him, though :smallbiggrin:

[Gay Poro]

You had me scared for a moment there.

Nice callback to V using a lower-level dispelling spell earlier so they didn't transform Bloodfeast then

[MaverickMopete]

The dragon is still alive, right? Looks like Bloodfeast was safely ejected into unoccupied space without harming him.

Which, notably, was not what happened when Darth V polymorphed after being swallowed by the ancient black dragon.

Darth Vaarsuvius was in the Dragon’s stomach when E cast Shapechange on emself.

[Peelee]

Calder is having a rough day.

True, but I was thinking the same thing about V. Not looking too good there.

[Gay Poro]

What I love particularly about this fight is that it's a very DnD way to take down the Dragon. It's silly and cool and strange to have a lizard transform into a T-Rex, twice in one fight, as a way to win. It feels like the creative, crazy fun way a real group of PCs would try to take down a Big Bad. I really appreciate Rich's writing, as always

[Psyren]

V for the win!


Calder is having a rough day.

I mean, they DID try to talk him down. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html) Any resultant jaw dislocations are his own fault :smalltongue:

[BrotherHanson]

And the horn swapped back! Dying to know what’s up…

[Fnordius]

[Calder] has all the reasons in the world to be absolutely livid.

Nope. He's just getting just desserts for centuries of being so sadistic and dismissive of others. He brought all of this upon himself because he thought he could just abuse and kill the Order.

Hubris, meet just desserts.

[Morgaln]

I think Calder bit off more than he can chew here.

[gallagher]

This Greater Dispel Magic is in fact the Greatest Dispel Magic in the history of OotS

[MaverickMopete]

This Greater Dispel Magic is in fact the Greatest Dispel Magic in the history of OotS

It’s tied with the epic unveiling of Xykon in the Battle of Azure City.

[ThatNickGuy]

sickos.gif

[Jay R]

Vaarsuvius is deliberately helping Belkar. Character growth!

[Also, clearly, Bloodfeast is experiencing character growth.]

[Rad]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused:

[Dummy]

Whoever said that Calder would eat Bloodfeast and that then Sunny was going to use his antimagic again to make it growth from inside him...

Close enought.

[Dummy]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused:

Tiny creatures are easier to travel with than Huge ones in say... Aeroships, bags of holding, 10x10 tunnels of a subterranean dungeon...

I think we have found the story reason of this fight. With Bloodfeast polymorph ended our heroes will have a harder time going through the rest of the Final Dungeon.

[Sky_Schemer]

True, but I was thinking the same thing about V. Not looking too good there.

Also true. Though I think we can make a scale here:


Day ended with no allosaurus
Day ended with allosaurus
Day ended with allosaurus attack
Day ended in allosaurus mouth
Day ended with allosaurus in mouth
Day ended in allosaurus
Day ended with allosaurus in self

[DaOldeWolf]

The timing was perfect for a "Chew on this" quip. Missed opportunity, I suppose.

[gallagher]

It’s tied with the epic unveiling of Xykon in the Battle of Azure City.

I am a big fan of dispelling Greater Invis on a zombie dragon, but I don't think this one is a tie. Dispelling an enemies defenses is routine enough, though it was a fantastic reveal. This one was a super mctwist GDM to flip a combat that has been back and forth in just a few frames. I am positively riveted to my chair

[MaverickMopete]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused:

:elan: : V was waiting for the coolest moment to do it!

[Shennynerd]

True, but I was thinking the same thing about V. Not looking too good there.

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?

[BrotherMirtillo]

:vaarsuvius: "I prepared Explosive Food this morning."

[Tobimaro]

I've never seen a dragon end up with a broken jaw before. But that was one perfect spell casting there.

[Peelee]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death.

No we don't. Belkar said "any", not "all", and it was fulfilled when he killed the Oracle. The Oracle was just teasing Belkar with the exhaustive list.

[Reboot]

Tiny creatures are easier to travel with than Huge ones in say... Aeroships, bags of holding, 10x10 tunnels of a subterranean dungeon...

I think we have found the story reason of this fight. With Bloodfeast polymorph ended our heroes will have a harder time going through the rest of the Final Dungeon.

Well, V does have a polymorph spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html).

[Segev]

Is it just me, or does it look like the allosaurus's tail is down the dragon's throat? Choking on your food, indeed!

[Tzardok]

Is it just me, or does it look like the allosaurus's tail is down the dragon's throat? Choking on your food, indeed!

It's clearly between Bloodfeast's legs.

[Frozenstep]

Didn't expect to see a giant bloodfeast again, at least not until Xykon. But now I'm thinking we might not see bloodfeast make it to Xykon...though, hopefully because the party can't bring him around in the tunnels, rather then death...

[Airinyourtires]

I don’t have anything profound to say but that was so freaking cool!!!!

[2.5 cats]

Brilliant double-meaning title!

"Bite Size" an an adjective. As in Bloodfeast was bite size.

"Bite Size" with an implicit comma. As in the dragon went "bite", then (with help from V.) Bloodfeast went "Size!"

[ratfox]

That should be the end of the fight. I think for the purpose of the story, the only reason Calder did not immediately die after swallowing without chewing is so he can still talk afterwards (though likely with a broken jaw).

I see that it's again the right horn that is broken :)

[Adeptus]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?

Well remembered.

What I'm thinking is that they were all trying to keep their powder dry for a final boss fight with Xykon and Redcloak. Now they are exhausted and wounded after dealing with an ancient red dragon. It's not looking good.

[t209]

Well, this just happened to be coincidence after watching Invincible.

[arimareiji]

Perhaps the greatest sacrifice yet in OotS: V does this, knowing that they're running a huge risk of permanently switching the lump of neurons in Belkar's proto-brain back from Hate to Love/Lust.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html

[drazen]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?

I have maintained that the logical, dramatic tragedy ending of V's character arc is to permanently lose all spellcasting powers while saving the world (perhaps by destroying the Crimson Mantle arrifact?). This would be the ultimate "death" of the main thing that made V, V. The kobold was getting more absurd and metaphorical with each passing suggestion, so I feel lile this tracks.

Of course, it could also be "As for the elf, the elf kills you" (maybe in the final climactic showdown, like what happened to Kraagor).

[Frogwarrior]

calling it now: bloodfeast will turn out to be MitD's parent (some deity did it with an allosaurus)

[Cryos]

OOOOOH Jaw Wrenched, that's gotta hurt. Not King Kong's version but still effective

[Mic_128]

Oooh, is that a dislocated jaw? I think that's a dislocated jaw. Tell me that's a dislocated jaw! :D

[Unoriginal]

Man, this fight keeps getting better with each page.

Now I'm expecting Calder to go "you are all badly injured and your healers are out of relevant spells, while I can win this fight through sheer attrition if needed", only for the two nearly-full-ressources Paladin to show up.


Brilliant double-meaning title!

"Bite Size" an an adjective. As in Bloodfeast was bite size.

"Bite Size" with an implicit comma. As in the dragon went "bite", then (with help from V.) Bloodfeast went "Size!"

Other meanings:

- "Bite Size" as in, the size of Calder's bite, which is sufficiently big before the Dispel but too small after.

- "Bite Size" with "bite" as the verb and "size" as the noun, as Calder tried to bite something of remarkable size and it didn't turn out well.

[Crusher]

OH MY GOD, THE ALLOSAURUS IS BACK IN THE RING! HE'S ON THE TOP ROPE WITH A STEEL CHAIR!

Calder's in real trouble now. Yes, it takes a LOT of damage to put down an Ancient(-ish) Red Dragon and Calder's done a lot of damage to the Order. But they've been steadily hitting him back and its finally piled up enough that he's starting to really show it. Bloodfeast being back in the fight and able to tank Calder for a couple more rounds is disastrously bad for him. The lady with the horned helmet is warming up her voice.

Edit - I think its 50/50 Bloodfeast dies here (how is he going to navigate the dungeon afterwards?), but the main takeaway is the Order will be in no condition to take on Team Evil after this.

[Provengreil]

Interesting, I seem to have a bit of egg on my face.

Me from another thread:

You're right: they're rarely that simple. And sure enough, effectively getting Bloodfeast into the fray is not actually simple. The difficulty here is the set of conditions that they can actually get an allosaur in.

In order to reverse the baleful polymorph, you would need either break enchantment or greater dispel magic*. If you do this, you're kinda stuck with the logistics of having a full grown allosaur with you: not ideal for an otherwise unprepared party, doubly so in the arctic, and probably a part of why they haven't tried yet. Also, you'd need to roll high, given that the counterspell has to overcome a caster level check against a DC of 26 at the very least. This means that dispelling to pop him out in the middle of combat is a high risk maneuver as it can completely waste a turn and a 6th level spell slot**, and break enchantment also has a 1 minute casting time (10 turns) and as such isn't really a viable mid combat strategy, further limiting dino deployment options.
-snip-
*A standard dispel magic might work, but the odds are terrible even at the lowest DC the check might be. It all depends on how strong Miron actually is, and all we have to go on is that he could cast horrid wilting: minimum 15th level caster but could plausibly be higher.


As someone who constantly brings up that the world itself bends to storylines in these threads, I really should have known better than to rule something out based on rules probability.

That said, V has been extremely effective with their dispels over the comic: are they specced into this with a feat or two?

[SlashDash]

well now we have the problem of how the order will bring bloodfeast with them when they finish this fight and leave this place.

They are not going to go much further.

I'm absolutely doubling down on my prediction : Calder will run away in a manner that would leave a giant hole in this place. Bloodfest will be able to go out but more importantly team evil will be able to go in - directly towards the prize without the need to go through Serini's traps.

[HalfTangible]

OH LORD I FELT THAT, that was awesome (even if I'm thinking 'dude don't monologue BITE DOWN')

... and I am disappointed to discover TFS Krillin's "I taste that" line is not clipped on YT

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks Giant! This is a great strip.
1. Love the dragon breath opener - great visuals, and it's what dragons do.
2. Love the cheap shot at Serini.
3. Love the "gyaa?" in the penultimate panel.
4. Love V's Greater Dispel Magic, with that empty potion bottle (still think it's a healing potion)
5. Love Belkar's "I'll cut my way into your esophagus" line: Belkar loves his animal companions.
6. When the Paladins arrive, they can do the mopping up.
7. Love Calder's LGLRNK! witticism in the last panel, and the expression on Bloodfeast's face.

Still, awesome fight! I didn't know how much I needed a dinosaur vs dragon fight in my life until now. Likewise.

What I love particularly about this fight is that it's a very DnD way to take down the Dragon. It's silly and cool and strange to have a lizard transform into a T-Rex, twice in one fight, as a way to win. It feels like the creative, crazy fun way a real group of PCs would try to take down a Big Bad. I really appreciate Rich's writing, as always Yep.

I think Calder bit off more than he can chew here.
*Groan*

[Also, clearly, Bloodfeast is experiencing character growth.] And shrinkage, and growth again ...

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused: You ever seen the guy who cleans up after the elephants at the circus?

:elan: : V was waiting for the coolest moment to do it!
For once, I'd agree with Elan on that.

:vaarsuvius: "I prepared Explosive Food this morning."
*Chortle*

What I'm thinking is that they were all trying to keep their powder dry for a final boss fight with Xykon and Redcloak. Now they are exhausted and wounded after dealing with an ancient red dragon. It's not looking good. Perfect time for either the IFCC or TE to show up.

Perhaps the greatest sacrifice yet in OotS: V does this, knowing that they're running a huge risk of permanently switching the lump of neurons in Belkar's proto-brain back from Hate to Love/Lust.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html Well played! Plus 10!

[Neoriceisgood]

Aw heck yes. Not expecting bloodfeast to survive particularly long but good to get a round 2 with him!

[Ionathus]

What I love particularly about this fight is that it's a very DnD way to take down the Dragon. It's silly and cool and strange to have a lizard transform into a T-Rex, twice in one fight, as a way to win. It feels like the creative, crazy fun way a real group of PCs would try to take down a Big Bad. I really appreciate Rich's writing, as always

This is a really good point! In most narrative media, you wouldn't get a T-Rex transformation reveal twice. Most authors would just do it once, for the impact shot, and then move on to something else. But I have absolutely been in a D&D fight where the best strategy was to try repeating That Thing We Did Two Turns Ago That Almost Worked. Fun to see it in comic form!

It's also still a good storytelling moment. The vibe I get from a second transformation (aside from the tactical problems for Calder) is that Calder is losing his ability to control the battlefield. He tried to shut down the T-Rex and it didn't work. That feels very much like when I'm running a boss monster and it tries & fails to stop a PC's spell or effect. It's a real blow to the boss's ego usually, and indicates that they are on the back foot.


No we don't. Belkar said "any", not "all", and it was fulfilled when he killed the Oracle. The Oracle was just teasing Belkar with the exhaustive list.

Yeah, I agree. The Oracle's vague teasing about "and as for the elf..." WAS cut off by Belkar's attack, which would be a decent way to hide a major spoiler. But given that the Oracle said "yeah I wasn't buying any of those either", he could just as easily have finished that sentence with "Vaarsuvius will die of Elf Old Age 2.5 years earlier than they otherwise would have, given all the stress your shenanigans put them through."

[ShadowSheperd]

Since bloodfeast thing is done, I see a mourning arc in Belkar's future, which is gonna be fun!

[Xlsfd]

So, I presume that V has now permanently removed the Baleful Polymorph that Miron put on Bloodfeast back in Strip 926?

[gallagher]

I would like to point out that once again, Tarquin is wrong about the allosaurus being played out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

There is no such thing as too much Bloodfeast. Unless you are trying to eat him.

[Naysmith]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?
That would be more of a stretch than Roy's death but a lot less of one than everyone else (except the Oracle himself, of course).

I'm voting on V's "death" being the effects of the Faustian bargain.

[Peelee]

I would like to point out that once again, Tarquin is wrong about the allosaurus being played out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

There is no such thing as too much Bloodfeast. Unless you are trying to eat him.

The Allosaurus was withheld for quite some time, is why it isn't played out here. Tarquin was right about that.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, Calder, you made the wizard angry and afraid. The most powerful member of the Order of the Stick now really wants you dead, and is smarter than you are.
Now, how many HP of damage did Calder just take as an Allosaurus erupted in his mouth? That can't feel good.

And Serini has yet to enter combat. I have to believe she will avenge Sunny very soon.

[Doug Lampert]

That said, V has been extremely effective with their dispels over the comic: are they specced into this with a feat or two?

At the minimum, the bauble gives V a +1 to caster level checks (which dispel is). That alone probably puts V at +17 to the greater dispel check.

The DC is probably 26 or 27. 55% or 60% of success, and it doesn't need to overcome a dragon's spell resistance or silly good saves. Not a bad move even with no boost.

[Crusher]

It's a real blow to the boss's ego usually, and indicates that they are on the back foot.

Yeah, the fight has had ups and downs and surprises for Calder, but this is the first moment when Calder thinks "I might actually lose this."

[Shining Wrath]

Also, Calder got his breath weapon back and used it immediately - good tactics for a dragon, but he's probably not getting it back for a couple of rounds, and the party continues to score hits. I count 3 - two arrows, one stab from Belkar, plus whatever having an Allosaurus dislocate your jaw does. I wonder if Calder can still use his breath weapon after that, actually; his jaw may be flopping around and he's incapable of aiming.

Now, can Durkon switch over from swinging his mace to healing the injured for a round or two? There's some damaged teammates.

[gatemansgc]

Calder is having a rough day.

good, but he needs to take more damage.

[Rollin]

The lady with the horned helmet is warming up her voice.
I thought she stayed back in Firmament with Kudzu.

[gatemansgc]

They are not going to go much further.

I'm absolutely doubling down on my prediction : Calder will run away in a manner that would leave a giant hole in this place. Bloodfest will be able to go out but more importantly team evil will be able to go in - directly towards the prize without the need to go through Serini's traps.

yeah the traps are just too good. there has to be a way to ruin them.

[Ruck]

That's some really precise aim from V. Much better than we've seen before. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)

[Peelee]

That's some really precise aim from V. Much better than we've seen before. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)

Dimensional Anchor is a ray, and requires an attack roll. Dispel Magic targets a creature (or object or area) and doesn't require any roll.

[hewhosaysfish]

Love it!
LGLRNK!

[gbaji]

They are not going to go much further.

Well. Except that the route they were just going through prior to being distracted by Sunny floating off and waking up Calder, is quite a bit too small for Bloodfeast (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1294.html). So unless there is a different route they can go to get to the gate, Bloodfeast is not going to be going with them. So pretty much he dies, he's left here (not likely), or he gets polymorphed again maybe?


I'm absolutely doubling down on my prediction : Calder will run away in a manner that would leave a giant hole in this place. Bloodfest will be able to go out but more importantly team evil will be able to go in - directly towards the prize without the need to go through Serini's traps.

Run off somewhere and cause problems later? Yeah. That could happen.

I'm still not at all seeing how on earth "leave a giant hole" works here. This is an underground dungeon, with no physical connection to any other location in the Hollow (and required going through a magic portal to get here). The odds that there is a thin wall separating this dungeon and one that TE is in or will be entering soon is very very close to zero. It would defeat the entire purpose of having all those dungeons, and requiring that someone get all the marks from exploring all of them before the portal to the Final Dungeon appears, if one could enter the Final Dungeon just by battering down a single wall somewhere.

Red Dragons are not known for their burrowing capabilities. And that would required for this to work (and happen to burrow in the correct direction, and have the time to do this, all of which is also very very unlikely).


So, I presume that V has now permanently removed the Baleful Polymorph that Miron put on Bloodfeast back in Strip 926?

Yes. Now that the spell has actually been dispelled, Bloodfeast is permananently back to his normal size/shape.


EDIT: Oh. And rules question averted by Rich, since Bloodfeast was not fully iinside Calder's stomach, so we can't really say that LoS/LoE was blocked (which dispell magic also needs).

[woweedd]

Not your brightest move Caulder.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, I presume that V has now permanently removed the Baleful Polymorph that Miron put on Bloodfeast back in Strip 926? That's how I understand that spell working.

There is no such thing as too much Bloodfeast. Unless you are trying to eat him. That needs to be a t-Shirt at Cafe Press for this coming Christmas, and maybe an ornament. :smallbiggrin:

[SlashDash]

Now, can Durkon switch over from swinging his mace to healing the injured for a round or two? There's some damaged teammates.
Durkon spent a lot of spells today already. Remember he cast the wind walk and likely a couple of sendings trying to contacts the paladins and\or Serini and he had that fight with Team Evil before.

Not to mention casting at least 2 spells before the Calder fight.

[SlashDash]

yeah the traps are just too good. there has to be a way to ruin them.
Exactly. That's why it seems so obvious that something will let them jump right in.


Well. Except that the route they were just going through prior to being distracted by Sunny floating off and waking up Calder, is quite a bit too small for Bloodfeast (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1294.html).

So unless there is a different route they can go to get to the gate, Bloodfeast is not going to be going with them. So pretty much he dies, he's left here (not likely), or he gets polymorphed again maybe?

Or as I said... A giant new opening will be formed shortly.




Run off somewhere and cause problems later? Yeah. That could happen.

I'm still not at all seeing how on earth "leave a giant hole" works here. This is an underground dungeon, with no physical connection to any other location in the Hollow (and required going through a magic portal to get here).

You're making an assumption here that isn't based on any evidence we have.

All we know is that they teleported through the portal.
But where did they teleport? You're assuming it's not connected but for all we know, it could be the exact same trick Serini used before with the secret door without the door part.

In other words they are just below monster hollow but there isn't any door to walk in unless a couple of behemoths (and possibly a beholder with a disintegration beam) opens one up.



The odds that there is a thin wall separating this dungeon and one that TE is in or will be entering soon is very very close to zero. It would defeat the entire purpose of having all those dungeons, and requiring that someone get all the marks from exploring all of them before the portal to the Final Dungeon appears, if one could enter the Final Dungeon just by battering down a single wall somewhere.

I doubt it's thin, but the point stands. It is a trick we've seen her use before and it really doesn't cause any story problems here.

The dungeon is likely still located somewhere nearby and is just surrounded by walls that travel\divination\whatever as Team Evil noted before.

Also Team Evil doesn't have to be really nearby. They just need to be able to spot a newly formed giant hole and go look it up. Most likely the good team will have to run away before that happens.




Red Dragons are not known for their burrowing capabilities. And that would required for this to work (and happen to burrow in the correct direction, and have the time to do this, all of which is also very very unlikely).

Not at all. This is a failure of imagination. There are plenty of things that can get this done without Calder actually burrowing out.

From somehow getting Sunny to use his unlimited disintegration effect to possibly tampering with the strings of creation (that we just happen to see a few strips ago) to maybe releasing some other monsters that are trapped here etc.

The original point stands: The odds of team evil walking through all of Serini's traps is 0. No way in heck is that happening. And since it's a given fact that their detect traps ability is so dreadful that they haven't noticed the swap-overs they aren't going to start paying attention to them now.

It's possible they'll have another reason how they bypass the traps, sure.
But I think some after effect of Calder's battle seems quite likely.

[tomandtish]

I think Calder bit off more than he can chew here.

V said a mouthful.

[Debatra]

:belkar:: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

[Taojnhy]

PONK! is now the sound my inner voice makes when imagining something's jaw being suddenly dislocated.

[Sermil]

And we still don't know what V's potion did!

[Fergie0044]

Huh, do we think the new and improved Belkar will acknowledge that V just saved his little buddy?

[DavidSh]

:belkar:: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

Only when it was dramatic. Or funny.

[Unoriginal]

Well remembered.

What I'm thinking is that they were all trying to keep their powder dry for a final boss fight with Xykon and Redcloak. Now they are exhausted and wounded after dealing with an ancient red dragon. It's not looking good.

The shortest estimation for Team Evil finding the Final Dungeon was two full days.

Even if several hours went by since that estimation, the OotS & Friends will have the time to rest, recover and prepare before Xykon reaches the portal.

So so long as no one dies, they should be fine.

[Psychronia]

Nice. We're used to V speaking with mouthfuls, but this time, he made someone else deal with it.
That probably hurt his jaw, but Caulder is lucky he decided to try chewing instead of swallowing. As far as I know, Greater Dispel Magic would have worked on Bloodfeast even inside a dragon's stomach, right?

Now we have a permanently bulky dino to pin this guy down. I assume an Allossaurus isn't really a match against a red dragon statwise, but the bulk and ability to physically pin the sucker down is much appreciated either way.

Also good to see V still in the fight, as disoriented as they are. Someone should probably throw some healing that way though.

[Gift Jeraff]

Trying to eat something when you know it's one spell away from reverting to a huge dinosaur? My estimation of Calder as an endgame boss monster just plummeted.

[Ghosty]

:vaarsuvius: "I prepared Explosive Food this morning."

Bravo! (Insert congratulatory meme here) Just fantastic.

I hope Minrah didn't take too much of that Dragon breath. And V looks like s/he needs to slug another healing potion. Or wear a Wall of Force. Something...

[Ghosty]

I have maintained that the logical, dramatic tragedy ending of V's character arc is to permanently lose all spellcasting powers while saving the world (perhaps by destroying the Crimson Mantle arrifact?). This would be the ultimate "death" of the main thing that made V, V. The kobold was getting more absurd and metaphorical with each passing suggestion, so I feel lile this tracks.

Of course, it could also be "As for the elf, the elf kills you" (maybe in the final climactic showdown, like what happened to Kraagor).

Completely agree. (I think I even phrased it exactly the way you did in the 2nd paragraph, way back when discussing how the Oracle's prophecy was likely to be fulfilled.)

[Ghosty]

...Now I'm expecting Calder to go "you are all badly injured and your healers are out of relevant spells, while I can win this fight through sheer attrition if needed", only for the two nearly-full-ressources Paladin to show up...


OH MY GOD, THE ALLOSAURUS IS BACK IN THE RING! HE'S ON THE TOP ROPE WITH A STEEL CHAIR!

Calder's in real trouble now. Yes, it takes a LOT of damage to put down an Ancient(-ish) Red Dragon and Calder's done a lot of damage to the Order. But they've been steadily hitting him back and its finally piled up enough that he's starting to really show it. Bloodfeast being back in the fight and able to tank Calder for a couple more rounds is disastrously bad for him. The lady with the horned helmet is warming up her voice...

"WAIT A MINUTE...? THAT'S O-CHUL'S MUSIC!!!"

"YOU'RE RIGHT, GENE! THE REFEREE IS BACK IN THE RING!!!"

Smite Evil! Smite Evil!

Sigh, now I'm going to be watching old WWF clips for awhile.

I still think we might get some interesting backstory from Calder, even as a throwaway quip while fleeing for his life.

[AvangionQ]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

[Ruck]

Dimensional Anchor is a ray, and requires an attack roll. Dispel Magic targets a creature (or object or area) and doesn't require any roll.

Well that's no fun.

[Ridureyu]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

What's V's HP?

[Peelee]

Well that's no fun.

..... Bloodfeast was also closer? :smalltongue:

[Faldrath]

And in the middle of all the mayhem... Roy actually managed to miss his greatsword throw.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Note how quiet and effective V has gotten since their own character arc. Rather than boast and go for the most powerful and dramatic spell, and exhaust their higher level spells, they are quietly strategizing and conserving power and no longer driven by a need to feed their own ego.

They seem quite repentant and now are singularly focused on the mission to save the world, and their own soul in the process.

Quiet character growth from V, as well as Belkar earning their status as useful party member and no longer faking character growth.

Love it.

[brian 333]

I am amazed at how often I am wrong about predicting things like this. A poster specifically called out this scenario and I said that I didn't believe it would happen because I did not know how they could travel through the dungeon with a full sized dino.

It's almost as if The Giant is writing this story based on the opposite of my comments.

With no evidence that this is so, I declare it to be.

[The MunchKING]

I am amazed at how often I am wrong about predicting things like this. A poster specifically called out this scenario and I said that I didn't believe it would happen because I did not know how they could travel through the dungeon with a full sized dino.

It's almost as if The Giant is writing this story based on the opposite of my comments.

With no evidence that this is so, I declare it to be.

In that case you should say "the Order will lose this fight and all the cool characters will die". :smallwink:

[137beth]

Let's go Bloodfeast!

[Kareasint]

That is how a Nat 20 on the Dispel check would look.

That had to hurt.

[gbaji]

You're making an assumption here that isn't based on any evidence we have.

I think that the evidence we have supports the idea that the dungeons in the Hollow are separated from each other by decent amounts of solid rock/earth, and not just walls that can be burst through by a large creature running into them.


But where did they teleport? You're assuming it's not connected but for all we know, it could be the exact same trick Serini used before with the secret door without the door part.

Except that was a specificaly and intentionally created secret room within a single "dungeon" (backstage specifically). There is nothing in the strip that shows this being used to travel between dungeons.


In other words they are just below monster hollow but there isn't any door to walk in unless a couple of behemoths (and possibly a beholder with a disintegration beam) opens one up.

Why? Sereni has an entire hill, surrouding area, and the earth beneath to build dungeons in. Why not have 10-20 feet of earth (at least) between the nearest points of each one? Certianliy, the Final Dungeon should not have any other dungeon spaces anywhere near close enough for this type of travel. Assumption on my part? Yes. But my assumption is based on Serini not being a complete idiot.



I doubt it's thin, but the point stands. It is a trick we've seen her use before and it really doesn't cause any story problems here.

Again. A trick we've only seen used to make shorcuts between rooms in the same dungeon. We have never seen this used to travel from one dunegon to another.


The dungeon is likely still located somewhere nearby and is just surrounded by walls that travel\divination\whatever as Team Evil noted before.

More than "walls" though. Solid stone. Far more solid stone than any creature could create a hole thorugh by running into it. That's kinda the point to having something in a dungeon in the first place. Doubly so if the only way to get to this dungeon is to explore through hundreds of others one first, to open the portal to the Final Dungeon.


Also Team Evil doesn't have to be really nearby. They just need to be able to spot a newly formed giant hole and go look it up. Most likely the good team will have to run away before that happens.

Spot a newly formed giant hole where? I'm really confused by this. Where exactly do you think this hole will open up? You seem to be suggesting that Calder could run at a random wall and smash through it, Kool-aide man style, and leave a Calder shaped hole which TE can just walk through and get into the Final Dungeon. But that makes zero sense. No one would place their Final super secure dungeon in a location where any single wall could be bashed through and reach directly to the outside.

It's a dungeon. It's underground. There's no walll to smash through to get out. And if there is, that's a massive flaw in the dungeon design. I mean, it could be the case, but that would be monumentally stupid of Sereni to have designed it that way when it's just as easy to not have such walls that can be broken through.


Not at all. This is a failure of imagination. There are plenty of things that can get this done without Calder actually burrowing out.

From somehow getting Sunny to use his unlimited disintegration effect to possibly tampering with the strings of creation (that we just happen to see a few strips ago) to maybe releasing some other monsters that are trapped here etc.

Um.... Maybe? But that's a bit different than "Calder will run away in a manner that would leave a giant hole in this place".

There already exist spells that allow one to dig through solid earth. TE likely has those spells, but have not used them to try to find the Final Dungeon. I suppose one could just happen to accidentally dig/disentigrate/<something with the threads> in a direction that just happens to open a tunnel that goes somewhere "out" of the Final Dungeon. Maybe. But given the location the're in, it's far more likely it would open up into either backstage or one of the other dungeons (if I were laying this out, I'd put the actual locatioin of the Final Dungeon as far from the exterior areas of the Hollow as possible, with backstage being closest, then the various regular dungeons wedged in wherever they can fit).

So even if this did happen (possible, but unlikely), the most likely result would be a tunnel between the Final Dungeon and a random normal dungeon. Which means there's good odds that TE will not find it at all (they've already searched that dungeon), or will run into it randomly between now and when they would have found the portal anyway (statistically maybe cutting their time in half, but with a good chance of not cutting their time at all).


The original point stands: The odds of team evil walking through all of Serini's traps is 0. No way in heck is that happening. And since it's a given fact that their detect traps ability is so dreadful that they haven't noticed the swap-overs they aren't going to start paying attention to them now.

It's possible they'll have another reason how they bypass the traps, sure.
But I think some after effect of Calder's battle seems quite likely.

Yeah... I can see this from a narrative point of view. I also don't think we're going to see a bunch of strips of TE running into and dealing with the traps in the Final Dungeon. But honestly, I don't think "bypass them entirely" is on the table either. If we were to speculate Calder causing things to be easier for TE, I'd suggest that he just runs/flies off into the dungeon, clearly triggering tons of stuff but continuing on Leroy Jenkins style. The Order realizes its suicide to try to follow him, so they shrug and head through the door and towards the gate room, then barricade themselves in there, and wait. They hear lots of noises and thumps and explosions and whatnot. Then silence. Then we fast forward a couple days, and TE arrive through the portal to see devastation, roaming around making note of all of the dead bodies of various creatures, triggered by traps and released, only to turn on eachother or run around triggering more traps, etc.

TE wonders what happend here, shrugs and continues on, eventually reaching the gateroom where the Order is waiting...


The shortest estimation for Team Evil finding the Final Dungeon was two full days.

Even if several hours went by since that estimation, the OotS & Friends will have the time to rest, recover and prepare before Xykon reaches the portal.

So so long as no one dies, they should be fine.

Even if someone dies, they should be fine (except the person who dies will lose a level, and they'll be out some diamond dust).


As far as I know, Greater Dispel Magic would have worked on Bloodfeast even inside a dragon's stomach, right?

Haha! Well... technically, being inside Calder's stomach would block line of sight and line of effect, so.... no?


How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

Well. Durkon did cast mass resist fire, so everyone should take somewhat less damage from firebreathing. But V did take a direct hit from a polar ray spell, which given the spell level means a minimum of 15d6 damage to V right there. Then V got grabbed/clawed, then smashed to the ground, then maybe hit by fire (unclear if V was in the area with that last one). V may or may not have drank a healing potion before the latest firebreathing though.

Honestly, the one that seems the most strange is the polar ray. V got hit full on, there's no save, so full damage. Yet, doesn't appear to be significantly damaged at that point (I see no noticable damage indicators in 1298 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1298.html)). All damage seems to be from being grabbed and then dropped, and then breathed on. It's unclear what protective spells V may have cast prior to this battle though, so maybe there's something signifficant going on there? It seems unlikely for V to have protection from cold cast ahead of time, but that's almost the only thing I can think that would make this happen. Anything else would result in nearly as many D6s of damage as V has D4s of HPs (just from the polar ray).

V has never been shown to have a con any better than "mediocre", so yeah... should be dead. So must be some combination of defensive spells maybe?

[Blue Dragon]

I've never seen a dragon end up with a broken jaw before. But that was one perfect spell casting there.

That's a cool-looking dragon, sir. Where do I get one? You may PM me if needed.

[Ghosty]

What's V's HP?

Enough, with enough potions. (Just go with it.)

Didn't they eventually pop off a Mass Resist Fire at some point too?

[Ruck]

I think that the evidence we have supports the idea that the dungeons in the Hollow are separated from each other by decent amounts of solid rock/earth, and not just walls that can be burst through by a large creature running into them.

*snip*

Also, "If this ravine hadn't been built up out of multidimensional stone, you could just ghostform your way through..." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html)

[Simbosan]

I have one thing to say

LGLRNK!!

[jokem]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused:
??? Because it is way cooler to do it in the depth of a dragon's mouth!

[jokem]

Enough, with enough potions. (Just go with it.)

Didn't they eventually pop off a Mass Resist Fire at some point too?

I think it was a mass resist acid, to help vs the 'acid' lake.

[dmc91356]

I think it was a mass resist acid, to help vs the 'acid' lake.

Twas both in fact: This happened later - https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1296.html

Third panel, to be precise.

[Arin]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?

:elan: Nah, dramatically unsatisfying. Also, at this point, too obscure to even be a recognizable callback. Besides, we still have two more fiend markers to cash in with [pick pronoun for V here].


No we don't. Belkar said "any", not "all", and it was fulfilled when he killed the Oracle. The Oracle was just teasing Belkar with the exhaustive list.

:elan: Oh, we totally do. Sure, Belkar didn't technically say 'all', but the rules of dramatic storytelling clearly would not let a sentence fragment like the Oracle's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) slip out if it wasn't going to retroactively have a very satisfying ending to it.


Of course, it could also be "As for the elf, the elf kills you" (maybe in the final climactic showdown, like what happened to Kraagor).

:elan: No way. Belkar is heading for his major redemption arc moment - the moment he uses the Protection From Evil item and it doesn't hurt him anymore. V can't kill a nonevil character.


I have maintained that the logical, dramatic tragedy ending of V's character arc is to permanently lose all spellcasting powers while saving the world (perhaps by destroying the Crimson Mantle arrifact?). This would be the ultimate "death" of the main thing that made V, V. The kobold was getting more absurd and metaphorical with each passing suggestion, so I feel lile this tracks.

:elan: Now this is more like it! V does need [pick possessive pronoun for V here] own redemption arc, and giving up [pick possessive pronoun for V here] most desired thing in the universe - arcane power - for noble sacrificial reasons is definitely one of the Dictates of Poetics.

Belkar pointing out the need for V to do this, or suggesting it, would absolutely qualify as fulfilling the prophecy. On the other hand...

=================

For my own prediction, I think Bloodfeast is going to become the new guardian of that chamber, once Calder is out of the picture, and I think we're going to see Xykon and Redcloak battling it. Belkar having to sacrifice himself to hold them off by commanding Bloodfeast in that battle would definitely tick all the right story boxes. Right, Elan?

:elan: Right, Arin!

=================


Edit: I forgot to add, I actually did have an alternate theory about V having already "caused the death" of Vaarsuvius. V damned [pick possessive pronoun for V here] soul to the fiends; something that only occurred because [pick pronoun for V here] entered into conflict with the ABD. Which has Belkar's fingerprints all over it, from failing to kill the hex witch on time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) to being so frustrated with the halfling (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) and clearly, by the comment in the last panel, taking it out on the dragon kid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

It does also have the benefit of being a stretch, reinforcing someone else's comment about the Oracle's list getting more and more convoluted as he went on.

[ManuelSacha]

I love it!
Vaarsuvius literally said "bite this!" :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

:elan: Oh, we totally do. Sure, Belkar didn't technically say 'all'
:vaarsuvius: No, but the halfling did clearly specify "any of", which carries the explicit evocation that any one of the listed possibilities can be enough to fulfill the given soothsaying.

:elan:but the rules of dramatic storytelling clearly would not let a sentence fragment like the Oracle's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) slip out if it wasn't going to retroactively have a very satisfying ending to it.
:haley: And we got a satisfying ending to the fragment when the Oracle said he wasn't buying it either.:smallamused:

[Arin]

:vaarsuvius: No, but the halfling did clearly specify "any of", which carries the explicit evocation that any one of the listed possibilities can be enough to fulfill the given soothsaying.

:haley: And we got a satisfying ending to the fragment when the Oracle said he wasn't buying it either.:smallamused:

A not unreasonable interpretation. Time will tell. ;)

[drazen]

. V can't kill a nonevil character.

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

[Arin]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

Well, when I say V can't kill nonevil characters, I mean the current repentant, beat down version of V. The one that existed before learning about the Familicide's side effects (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) absolutely could kill nonevil characters. And not just in a bystander way, either - I honestly don't think [pick pronoun for V here] was "just representing the halfling" with the Linear Guild (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).

Character growth!


I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

Ooooh. I quite like that thought, as it does fit with the technical wording of the Oracle's prediction (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). After all, in D&D worlds, life without breath is totally possible.

[Starknight62040]

Calder is having a rough day.

Couldn't happen to a nicer dragon.

[Ghosty]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

I was laughing at the, 'V can't kill anyone not-Evil,' part. Taking that as true (it's not), plenty of things have stood in the wrong spot when my casters have started flinging AoEs around...

Though that's not how I suspect Belkar will go. As a much smarter person than me has put it, (sorry for badly paraphrasing you), 'The Giant is likely to subvert the prophecy by playing it entirely straight, and having Belkar die after the events in OOTS have concluded.' And with us seeing that B no longer gets shocked by his clasp.

We're missing a final few pieces to this puzzle. How the Snarl really works, what caused the final bust up of the Scribble, what happens next for the Gods, and how RedCloak tragically cannot transcend (except maybe at the end) the awful price he paid for his position. I do think V Disjoins the Mantle though. And bad things happen to hir.

[KorvinStarmast]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.
Drank a potion.

[cp314159]

Ooooh. I quite like that thought, as it does fit with the technical wording of the Oracle's prediction. After all, in D&D worlds, life without breath is totally possible.

Calling it now: Belkar will volunteer to be sealed in a stasis trap with Bloodfeast to secure the gate. Per the oracle's prophecy, the gate will never be breached again. A perfect subversion to the expectation that Belkar will die in some way, the culmination of his redemption arc, and a resolution to the Chekov's gun of Serini using volunteers AND the blurring of roles between monsters and PCs.

[SpykeMH]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?

[Rollin]

[pick pronoun for V here]
...
[pick possessive pronoun for V here]

One may, of course. But with a nickname like V's, who needs pronouns?

[Lexible]

Which, notably, was not what happened when Darth V polymorphed after being swallowed by the ancient black dragon.

Darth V did not polymorph, they shapechanged. They're different spells.

Also, Bloodfeast was in Calder's mouth as indicated by the "Gyyaa! Gyyaa!", and by the close-up on Calder's mouth and teeth.

[Edric O]

Never attempt to feast on the Bloodfeast.

[Mic_128]

Never attempt to feast on the Bloodfeast.

He's the Bloodfeaster, not the Bloodfeastee.

[gatemansgc]

:belkar:: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

yep i can totally see next comic starting with belkar uttering something similar to that LOL

[Kardwill]

Why? Sereni has an entire hill, surrouding area, and the earth beneath to build dungeons in. Why not have 10-20 feet of earth (at least) between the nearest points of each one? Certianliy, the Final Dungeon should not have any other dungeon spaces anywhere near close enough for this type of travel. Assumption on my part? Yes. But my assumption is based on Serini not being a complete idiot.

Serini CREATED an entire hill. We know that the rift was at the surface, and that the rocks of the ravine is magic "multidimensional stone" (thanks @Ruck for that callback), so it's likely the region was terraformed to build a hill on top of the Gate.
Also note that the other dungeons can be pretty much anywhere, since their entrance is a teleport spell. Which means that hill just has to contain "Backstage" and the Final Dungeon. (The Final Dungeon couls also be under another artificial hill, far from Kraagor's tomb, sure, since its entrance is also a Teleport spell, but I don't think so : Serini wouldn't want to have her homebase too far from the Gate she's guarding, just in case someone managed to find a way to bypass her deception.)
It also means that the Final Dungeon can't be too deep, since it has to be above the original ground level. It is inside the hill, not under the hill. But yeah, there is probably a healthy chunk of magicrock between the Gate and the surface.



TE wonders what happend here, shrugs and continues on, eventually reaching the gateroom where the Order is waiting...

Or we'll just see one panel of X and RC arriving somewhat singed to the Gateroom, with a "Well, that was annoying" comment, and that's all we'll ever see of "Team Evil's extraordinary adventures in the Final Dungeon of Doom".
We know Serini thinks her dungeon will just weaken and delay Xykon, but can't stop him.



Honestly, the one that seems the most strange is the polar ray. V got hit full on, there's no save, so full damage. Yet, doesn't appear to be significantly damaged at that point (I see no noticable damage indicators in 1298 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1298.html)). [/URL]

If you look close, it looks like V has 2 "holes" in their chest. And the polar ray looked like it hurt when V tanked it.
V still has these holes (along with a LOT of fire damage) on the current page. So maybe V just has that many hitpoints?

[danielxcutter]

Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place? That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

[b_jonas]

At the minimum, the bauble gives V a +1 to caster level checks (which dispel is). That alone probably puts V at +17 to the greater dispel check.

The DC is probably 26 or 27. No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.


That probably hurt his jaw, but Caulder is lucky he decided to try chewing instead of swallowing. As far as I know, Greater Dispel Magic would have worked on Bloodfeast even inside a dragon's stomach, right?I don't think so. Spells usually can't target items in someone else's inventory.

[danielxcutter]

No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.

"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items.


I don't think so. Spells usually can't target items in someone else's inventory.

This is right though. It's more about lacking line of sight/line of effect in this case, but the result - "it wouldn't have worked if Calder'd swallowed Bloodfeast" is the same.

[DavidBV]

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

[Kardwill]

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

... That's a good point, actually. Dungeon sightseeing is nice, but it was mostly a setup for the Calder encounter, so I doubt we'll see much more of it. Something else will probably happen between this fight and the X+RC showdown, and I doubt it will just be planning and downtime (since those have already been front and center in the strips just before the Dungeon Delve).

[MaverickMopete]

:belkar:: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

:vaarsuvius:: No, not "this whole time". Only when expending the sixth-level spell slot required to do so would be the most expeditious way to conclude a battle.

[b_jonas]

"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items. I wasn't thinking of the level adjustment for vampires. It's more that they are much more wealthy than the Order, with access to more varied magic items. They are also ruling half of a continent, with armies answering them, including a private division for Tarquin specifically trained for ominous plot-critical reveals (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). They definitely seem to be more powerful than the Order, so I presume they're higher level.

[Liquor Box]

A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

[Kardwill]

I dunno. "Secretly ruling half a continent" kinda fits with a lvl 15-20 evil party, I think.

[Kardwill]

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

If it was one of my tables, she would be suffering from "NPC syndrome" (the powerful NPCs do their own thing, so that the PCs battle the main threat by themselves), but here, dunno.

She may simply be too old for that kind of direct fighting against a dragon. Her engagements against the paladins and against the order were surprise skirmish using any advantage she could muster, not "frontal epic rogue assault"

[danielxcutter]

I wasn't thinking of the level adjustment for vampires. It's more that they are much more wealthy than the Order, with access to more varied magic items. They are also ruling half of a continent, with armies answering them, including a private division for Tarquin specifically trained for ominous plot-critical reveals (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). They definitely seem to be more powerful than the Order, so I presume they're higher level.

Eh, they can't be using all the money on their own gear even with all much they squeeze out of the populations, and we've seen Tarquin basically set money on fire on various indulgences.

[rasborry]

Go, V!

Can we squeeze in a third transformation for Bloodfeast in this fight? It's very hype every time it happens.

[Reltzik]

Calder just made a big mistake. The "little" snack wasn't anything of the sort, and his appetite is definitely at risk of getting spoiled.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder just made a big mistake. The "little" snack wasn't anything of the sort, and his appetite is definitely at risk of getting spoiled.
Never eat anything bigger than your head (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/550796.Never_Eat_Anything_Bigger_Than_Your_Head_Ot her_Drawings).

[Dummy]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?

Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.

[KorvinStarmast]

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.


Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.
Velkar.
Belsuvius.
Belkuvius.

But it ain't gonna happen.

[Somniloquist]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

[Peelee]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

How do you know that?

[bunsen_h]

The dragon is still alive, right? Looks like Bloodfeast was safely ejected into unoccupied space without harming him.

You just have to look at the dragon's eyes (which is usually a bad idea, in-story). No 'X's.


Vaarsuvius is deliberately helping Belkar. Character growth!

I don't think that V has any particular intention in that regard. It's a consequence, but not a goal.


I'm still not at all seeing how on earth "leave a giant hole" works here. This is an underground dungeon, with no physical connection to any other location in the Hollow (and required going through a magic portal to get here). The odds that there is a thin wall separating this dungeon and one that TE is in or will be entering soon is very very close to zero. It would defeat the entire purpose of having all those dungeons, and requiring that someone get all the marks from exploring all of them before the portal to the Final Dungeon appears, if one could enter the Final Dungeon just by battering down a single wall somewhere.

It would be a very cartoony effect: a series of dragon-shaped holes through multiple walls/doors. I don't think Rich would go that route; it would undermine the tone of the comic.

[Charity322]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

[Tzardok]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

Dispells are instantaneous, like fireballs or healing magic. The effects of those also don't end.

[Frozenstep]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

The dispel has completely gotten rid of the normally-permanent magical effect that was keeping Bloodfeast as a lizard. Bloodfeast will remain a dinosaur unless more magic is used, or it dies.

[gbaji]

One may, of course. But with a nickname like V's, who needs pronouns?

Yeah. It's not like you can get shorter than "V" or "V's".


Serini CREATED an entire hill. We know that the rift was at the surface, and that the rocks of the ravine is magic "multidimensional stone" (thanks @Ruck for that callback), so it's likely the region was terraformed to build a hill on top of the Gate.
Also note that the other dungeons can be pretty much anywhere, since their entrance is a teleport spell. Which means that hill just has to contain "Backstage" and the Final Dungeon. (The Final Dungeon couls also be under another artificial hill, far from Kraagor's tomb, sure, since its entrance is also a Teleport spell, but I don't think so : Serini wouldn't want to have her homebase too far from the Gate she's guarding, just in case someone managed to find a way to bypass her deception.)
It also means that the Final Dungeon can't be too deep, since it has to be above the original ground level. It is inside the hill, not under the hill. But yeah, there is probably a healthy chunk of magicrock between the Gate and the surface.

Exactly. Based on the flashback, the original rift/gate was at surface level. That means that Serini had the entire hill and hollow built specifically as the defenses around the gate. The gateroom itself therefore, should be some hundred or so feet from any surface. The rest of the Final Dungeon complex can be pretty much anywhere in relation to things, but it seems like if you were building such a defense, and wanted to make sure that the only possible way to get there was via the "explore every dungeon and open the magic portal", you would take great pains to ensure that no part of the Final Dungeonn is anywhere close to any part of any other dungeon (or the surface).

Oh! Good call on the other dungeons too. Given the swapovers, they could actually be anywhere. Presumably somewhat close, but technicalliy do not need to actually be in the hollow itself, or even within multidimensional stone. It doesn't matter if folks can magic their way in/out of them, really, since the trap still has to be spung on each, and it's not like ghostforming around for miles in the area looking for random dungeons to enter is actually faster than just opening a door and going in.

So yeah. Likely that only backstage and the Final Dungeon are actually physically located right there in the Hollow itself. And that thing is huge. Plenty of room for backstage and a very large Final Dungeon, while still maintaining significant amounts of physical stone/earth between each.


Or we'll just see one panel of X and RC arriving somewhat singed to the Gateroom, with a "Well, that was annoying" comment, and that's all we'll ever see of "Team Evil's extraordinary adventures in the Final Dungeon of Doom".

Yup. That's an equal possiblity. Narratively, the author has shown us the defenses, so we don't really need to see them in operation. It's enough to say "there's a ton of traps the bad guys will have to get through", and then cut to the scene where a damaged/weakened TE arrives in the gateroom. The traps will have done their job of weakening TE and making it more of a fair fight (which is also the whole point).


If you look close, it looks like V has 2 "holes" in their chest. And the polar ray looked like it hurt when V tanked it.
V still has these holes (along with a LOT of fire damage) on the current page. So maybe V just has that many hitpoints?

Also a good catch. We know that sometimes healing potions heal clothing as well, so does that mean V hasn't healed the damage from the polar ray yet? Or has, and Rich is leaving the holes in V's clothes? Or maybe V has just partially healed the damage?

Dunno. I think that either there was a really really bad damage roll on that polar ray, or V has some protection/resistance we weren't told about, or there was a potion/heal use off panel that we didn't see. While there was presumably time between the polar ray hit and the antimagic field hit for V to have been healed somewhat, V seemed to be busy that whole time (V casts cone of cold, calder polar ray's and then breathes, then V casts lighting, then is hit with anti-magic), and isn't heal a ranged touch spell? V's up in the air the whole time too.

Eh... Got lucky with the damage dice?


Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place? That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

Yeah. I'm not sure what the storytelling point of "And TE gets there faster than expected and without taking damage or expending resources". I do, however, get the whole "We don't need to see the details of TE dealing with the traps", but there are better/easier ways to deal with that.


A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).

Sure. But he's been taking steady damage the whole time. While Roy's sword missed, Belkar got another stab in, and Haley got in two arrow hits, just this round. His "position" is still "on the ground, dealing with a large dinosaur that can keep me from flying up, so I'm vulnerable to melee attacks". And yeah, I full expect the paladins to show up in the next strip or two.

Bloodfeast, on the other hand, could use a heal.


Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

Yeah. She's pretty much been standing around the whole time. She does have ranged attacks, and some damage is better than none, so.... yeah. Not sure what she's doing. Hopefully, we'll see something from her coming up as well.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm guessing we'll see a story arc of Team Evil making their way through part of Serini's funhouse, with the point being MitD character growth; he will be given a few lessons in how Xykon and Redcloak really don't care if he gets hurt / suffers pain as they use him for Barbarian Trap Clearing - "walk straight down this corridor and trigger all the traps". Grayview will have some sardonic observations about that being just how life is, and Oona may offer some comments on how MitD's monster type has certain immunities or resistances, which will get the MitD identifier crowd all in a tizzy.

What we'll learn is that TE is making their way through, slowly, and that MitD is being slowly prepped to switch sides at a suitably dramatic moment, probably the final battle.

If the final battle is to take place at the final gate, at some point TE has to realize they are being tricked.

[skim172]

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ... what are the D&D rules for damage inflicted by a giant dinosaur materializing inside your stomach? Is that survivable?

This sounds like a fascinating method of covert assassination. Polymorph a dinosaur into a delicious chicken, roast for an hour and 15 minutes on medium, serve it to a paranoid emperor. And then later that night, when the emperor walks through the anti-magic gate to his private chambers - chunks of Diplodocus explode out of his belly like a can full of springs.

Or ... would the Polymorph Dispel still work post-digestion? When the constituent nutrients of dinosaur have been broken down and distributed all throughout your hated enemy's body, stored in their fat cells and muscle tissue and bones and organs - and then with one Dispel, all the molecules return to their original size and composition ...

Long story short: Hank Pym should be the most dangerous man in the cosmos.

[arimareiji]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?


Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.

One of the great romances of all time, as I noted earlier.

(I just wish we had an emoji for a devilish grin…)


Perhaps the greatest sacrifice yet in OotS: V does this, knowing that they're running a huge risk of permanently switching the lump of neurons in Belkar's proto-brain back from Hate to Love/Lust.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html

Edit, because now I'm feeling truly evil: And now I belatedly wonder where Durkon sits in Belkar's proto-brain, after the vampire arc. (Though I wouldn't be a tiny bit surprised if someone has wondered this before me, considering Durkon was the one who V explained this theory to.) At least Hilgya can have the comfort of knowing Durkon is now caught in a three-way 'ship?

[Shining Wrath]

So, possible happy ending for Belkar - his body is ruined, and V polymorphs him into something that's a construct. He no longer breathes, but he's still around, and maybe V chooses a construct that is the appropriate sex for V and Belkar to live happily ever after.

[Ionathus]

Belkar's greatest moment of character growth will be his evolution from a proto-brain to a pseudo-brain, one that can register a third category for people:

Grudging, Sarcastic, Dragged-Kicking-And-Screaming Quasi-Respect

[Doug Lampert]

No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.

Miron completely failed to cast any level 9 spells on screen, nor are any clearly implied to have been cast off-screen. His caster level is probably 15 or 16.

Class and level geekery found no evidence for higher level. In fact, no member of the Vector legion is confirmed to be higher than level 16.


"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items.

Malack is confirmed to have been a level 12 cleric. If he's an NPC, then note that a lizardfolk cleric 12 vampire is only CR 14 (2 racial HD gives CR 1; first 2 levels of cleric are disassociated, and give elite abilities and cleric 2 for only +1 CR to CR 2; next 10 levels of cleric are associated and raise the CR to 12; vampire brings it up to 14).

So, the one case where we know the level, it gives the Vector Legion CR 14. I'm not seeing epic foes here, and foes use CR not ECL.

If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal.

[Shadowknight12]

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ... what are the D&D rules for damage inflicted by a giant dinosaur materializing inside your stomach? Is that survivable?

Dispel Magic and its Greater version have two cast modes: single-target and area of effect.

For the single-target option, we have this problem, as per the Magic Overview section of the PHB:


Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.

And as for the AoE option, we have this one:


A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. [...]

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

TL;DR: Once swallowed, it is no longer a valid target for dispelling (unless you cut an opening into the digestive tract).

[The MunchKING]

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ...

Line of effect. Caldur's scales, muscles, organs, and possibly bones would get in the way of the shot.



Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.


Actually now that I've said that, don't most Polymorph effects say they end when the creature dies?? Caldur could have been about to do that to himself.

[LookieLouE1707]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

[Shadowknight12]

Actually now that I've said that, don't most Polymorph effects say they end when the creature dies?? Caldur could have been about to do that to himself.

Baleful Polymorph (the specific spell used on Bloodfeast) does not have such clause, and the Duration of "Permanent" does not specify that either.

[Precure]

Still, nothing stops Calder from bbqing Bloodfeast and having a feast on bloody dinosaur shish kebabs.


True, but I was thinking the same thing about V. Not looking too good there.

To be fair, she's probably drunk

[elecampane]

Exactly. That's why it seems so obvious that something will let them jump right in.

<...>

In other words they are just below monster hollow but there isn't any door to walk in unless a couple of behemoths (and possibly a beholder with a disintegration beam) opens one up.

I doubt it's thin, but the point stands. It is a trick we've seen her use before and it really doesn't cause any story problems here.

The dungeon is likely still located somewhere nearby and is just surrounded by walls that travel\divination\whatever as Team Evil noted before.
<>

It is protected against scrying, but not divinations. Serini was specifically careful (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html) about the possibility of divination magic revealing ways to enter the final dungeon. Why would someone as paranoid as Serini create a dungeon that could be defeated with a 4th level spell and a pickaxe? Redcloak could've simply casted divination, gotten something along the lines of

Find yourself on the ground floor
Look for door number four
Keep your hand on right-side wall
Till you reach a small landfall
Strike the wall with all your might
There you'll find your delight

and entered the final dungeon without wasting any time. I'm pretty sure the gate is reasonably isolated from the surface. And for all we know, it might be miles away from the actual monster hollow. Sure, team Evil might still bypass all the traps somehow, but I doubt it would be through Calder busting through the walls. Also I kinda doubt that all the buildup about how deadly and merciless this dungeon level is will be spent on "look at how much defenses we'd lost because of Calder"


A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).
I mean, if his jaw is really dislocated, he probably can't cast spells with verbal components, can't use his bite attack and possibly even his fire breath attacks will get wonky. Sure, he still has a ton of hp and his claw/tail/wing attacks, but those aren't nearly as deadly. (And he obviously took damage here — a stab from Belkar and two arrows from Haley.)


Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.
Maybe when Calder first surrendered they swore an oath they wouldn't harm him, and she's for some reason beholden to that? I mean, it's unlikely Soon would cast Mark of Justice on her, but her lack of participation is glaring.


This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.
I mean, the Quinton estimated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) the time needed to search through the whole monster hollow to be around 2 days, so unless team Evil really drops on them through a hole, they still have time to fully recuperate spells and hp. And as far as narrative surprises go — there's still MitD.


How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.
Polar ray is strong, but there's ways to buff hp. Bear's endurance is like +30 hp for them now. There's also temporary hp. As for the breath, I don't believe Calder is a Great Wyrm, and they had resist fire on, that prevents 30 damage. If they've made their save, the damage would be very low.

[fourcolor]

I want to say two things:

One, there should be a spell that explicitly (and only) makes anything in one's mouth turn into a dinosaur.

Two, I bet the dragon's jaw is dino-sore!

That is all.

[dmc91356]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

This is awesome. You should add "Red" somewhere in your forum name.

[Provengreil]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

This forum has no upvotes so allow me to say LOL!


This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

I expect we'll cut back to Team Evil, it's been a while since we saw them.

[Devlerbat]

I kind of feel like this should have broken Calder's jaw, but I would understand if this aspect of realism isn't followed (even though I honestly would like it to be). Though I suppose that it is also possible that my understanding of the physics involved is incorrect in this instance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Miron completely failed to cast any level 9 spells on screen, nor are any clearly implied to have been cast off-screen. His caster level is probably 15 or 16. Or, unlike Laurin he does not break out the big guns early, and he had something in reserve when the Contingency triggered. (but I think you are right, in terms of Class and Level Geekery as a context).
If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal. They are, but, they are also rare (in terms of slots per day and "what did I prepare today" so it may be that his 9th level didn't fit that situation.

[HalfTangible]

:belkar:: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?


yep i can totally see next comic starting with belkar uttering something similar to that LOL

:vaarsuvius: : Of course not.
:vaarsuvius: : Just any time I felt like it.

[Peelee]

OThey are, but, they are also rare (in terms of slots per day and "what did I prepare today"

Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare. If he has one slot, then his choices are limited.
Again, the spell he had may not have fit the situation.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That has to hurt, although obviously Calder is not down or dead yet. I have to wonder how much more damage he can soak up, but I guess I end up wondering that about basically any boss.

Count me as not thinking this is going to do anything to wreck the dungeon's structure, because given the damage that existed in the room before this fight began, if Calder could have broken out by now, he would have. Or maybe it'll create some little minute crack that someone could use to ghostform or teleport through or something.

It worries me what is about or in Serini's staff that the narrative required it to be left behind downstairs when Serini took off after Sunny in a panic. There's no way that won't be important later.

Vaarsuvius looks nearly down as befits a squishy wizard without room to get to a safe distance and cast from there, but they've probably been downing potions offscreen in the brief spans between dragon attacks and presumably have other helpful/protective buffs applied.


Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare.

I'm not sure what if anything specified that Miron is a sorcerer rather than a wizard. Narratively, actually, I'd be more inclined to believe he's a wizard, for team variety in the Vector Legion, since Laurin is a psion, which is very sorcerer-esque in nature. (Otherwise they have Tarquin as a fighter, Jacinda as presumably a rogue, and one other guy we basically know nothing about, except he's very likely not a cleric, since that was Malack's job.)

[Peelee]

If he has one slot, then his choices are limited.
Again, the spell he had may not have fit the situation.

My friend, as someone who's favorite class is sorcerer, let me assure you: if you only have one slot, you figure out how to make it fit any situation. :smallamused:

[Thoughtbot360]

This dragon learned from the other dragon story arc.

Unfortunately for him....

...so did V.


Imma Muthafuggen T-Rex encore?

[The MunchKING]

Baleful Polymorph (the specific spell used on Bloodfeast) does not have such clause, and the Duration of "Permanent" does not specify that either.

The general description of Polymorph effects doesn't say anything about that either in the SRD. So, either it's a book thing that didn't get put in the SRD, or I'm thinking of a different game. Either way it wasn't happening in comic. *Shrug* :smallredface:

[danielxcutter]

Polymorph (the 4th level spell) has a duration at least?

[Diachronos]

well now we have the problem of how the order will bring bloodfeast with them when they finish this fight and leave this place. But I guess, now that the Bloodfeast gun has been fired, they don't necessarily need him, so he might be Bloodfeast the deadinator by the end of this fight.

Still, awesome fight! I didn't know how much I needed a dinosaur vs dragon fight in my life until now.

There are spells that can shrink a creature. If nobody from the Order can cast it (pretty sure it's not on the Cleric list at all and I don't necessarily see V having a reason to pick it up in the past), Serini's bound to have a wand or scroll for it lying around somewhere.

[Tzardok]

The general description of Polymorph effects doesn't say anything about that either in the SRD. So, either it's a book thing that didn't get put in the SRD, or I'm thinking of a different game. Either way it wasn't happening in comic. *Shrug* :smallredface:

It's in the description of the spell Polymorph itself. Also in Alter Self, and by extension all spells with a rider "this spell works like Polymorph, except" like Shapechange. It's specifically Baleful Polymorph that lacks this trait, both directly and indirectly.

[Kardwill]

Also a good catch. We know that sometimes healing potions heal clothing as well, so does that mean V hasn't healed the damage from the polar ray yet? Or has, and Rich is leaving the holes in V's clothes? Or maybe V has just partially healed the damage?



I would have guessed that the potion healed part of the damage, but V still has every scratch mark (to his clothes AND to his face) we saw in previous strips, with all-new burn marks from the firebreath.

Dunno. It can be explained several ways (magical protection, good CON score, temp HP, buff spell...). The important thing is that V still has some HP left, although probably not a lot : V looks really roughed up in that last strip.


Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.


Even without the line-of-sight stuff, V's not the kind of elf that would purposedly let someone get killed just because it's the most efficient way to deal with an enemy. Or, more accurately, they're not that elf anymore. Old V saw NPCs as ressources, inconveniences and worthless distractions, but current V has grown past that point.

I think that dispel wasn't aimed at hurting Calder, but at rescuing a party member from certain death, even if said party member is "only" Belkar's pet. That fits with V's character growth, especially with he way they now see blackwing as a full partner rather than as a convenient class feature.

[SlashDash]

Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place?
The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.
There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.
So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.



That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes. So the good guys are going to make a run for it and avoid a direct confrontation to the death. Just like the dwarves did earlier this morning.

Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?
Just tossing ideas.

The point is that any good story will put the bad guys with the advantage to make it that much more dramatic when the good guys defeat them. So team evil need to be the ones with the upper hand so they will have the advantage of guarding the flag for a while.

That is the time where all the other plots come into place.

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates. How would that work if this dungeon crawling isn't stopped?
Good guys make it to the gate, make camp, Xykon shows up 2 days later attacks them and Redcloak just decides to change his mind mid-fight? Will they defeat team evil and then hold Redcloak as prisoner until he cooperates?

Not going to happen. They have to put a pause on the whole thing and other events will happen to get Redcloak to start thinking on things.

I'll even repeat my earlier prediction on exactly what that is

Hel has to go all or nothing at this point as she has nothing to lose. She will send a vampire to the north pole that will join team evil in an attempt to get them to rush to execute their plans - which based on what Loki said would mean the gods still have a chance in 10 minutes to destroy the world thus sealing her win.

Said vampire will get team evil to argue and Xykon's preference to undead and likely finding out that Redcloak lied to him about the ritual will cause them to split up and Redcloak leaves team evil to realize that Xykon getting the gate by himself will be the death of all goblins and would finally realize he is better off compromising for the safety of his people.

[Kardwill]

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

We don't know that. It's the proposed optimal plan, but we know it's incomplete (Thor doesn't know about the planet), and it has a fair chance of being more complicated (since plans never go as expected, especially when the audience already knows the plan ^^). My bet is that the "final fight" will just be the setup for the actual finale about (or even "on") the riftworld.

[Unoriginal]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

Vaarsuvius doesn't know any spell or other method to seal the rifts.

If they did the Order could just have gone to where the Dungeon of Dorukan and Lirian's Gate used to stand and closed the rifts there, which would have greatly diminished the danger the world is in.



I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

Honestly, given who Redcloak is and has repeatedly demonstrated to be, I'd say Xykon joining the good guys in sealing the Gates would be more likely to happen.

Not that I think either would happen, just that Xykon would be more willing to do it because he knows he earns nothing if the world is destroyed. Meanwhile Redcloak has directly stated that even if the world destruction isn't an empty threat, he would let the world be destroyed rather than not winning (by his own, wounded-ego-motivated definition of winning). And that he'd justify it to himself with "if it happens, next world's goblins will have a better deal".

[Ruck]

There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.

How many characters are you thinking of? I think for a large majority of the characters who aren't present at the Gate now, their story is essentially over. Hinjo is the one notable exception, and I don't see why he couldn't show up at the dungeon. (EDIT: The IFCC, and Sabine, are still relevant, but the IFCC doesn't have to directly show up to make an impact, and Sabine herself certainly could.) For the rest, there's cutaways, or the denouement, depending on how important they are or why they need to show up.


Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?
Just tossing ideas.

The ritual itself takes several weeks to complete. I don't think Team Evil is going to get to the gate before the good guys do. So I think any scenario where something happens to stop them during the ritual necessarily would involve the Order's defeat, which isn't going to happen.

Also, I think your prediction contradicts this statement:


The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

With so many existent plot threads to be resolved and characters still relevant to the story-- let alone however many you think need to make a return appearance-- I don't really think we're going to see a new faction appear out of virtually nowhere.

Obviously, Hel isn't literally "out of nowhere," but a new vampire character would be. And I think Hel's role in the story was to be a main antagonist of the last book, and that has been fulfilled. Whatever needs to be resolved with her-- like, say, how she'll survive if this world is saved-- doesn't require her to be an active factor in the main plot.

I also don't really follow how your proposed scenario would happen based on what we know. I don't think a Xykon and Redcloak split would be in any way peaceful enough that Redcloak could just walk away and reconsider. Also, Xykon doesn't have a way to control or manipulate the Gate without Redcloak.

I also think that it's much less satisfying for "random third-party character shows up and that ends up changing Redcloak's mind" rather than the Order changing Redcloak's mind. But that's my opinion, whereas the previous paragraph seems pretty well informed by the facts of the story.

[danielxcutter]

The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.
There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.
So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.

First of all, just nitpicking/clarifying; the Giant said this last bit is going to be a single book "even if it looks like a telephone book" so page number isn't going to help a lot. Not that it really affects this specifically either way, I just wanted to say that.

Also, the primary dangling plot hook besides Team Evil are the IFCC and really, I don't doubt they'd be able to force their way somehow. Archfiends are right below actual deities and they've been preparing an artifact.


You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is

-that either the gods blow up the world or TE gets the Gate. The entire point of this storyline is that this is the last Gate so it has to end here.

[Errorname]

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

We very much do not know that. We know that all the characters think this is the only way to win, but I find it very easy to imagine that whatever revelations about the Snarl that come will open another path to victory after Thor's plan conclusively fails. I can think of a lot of stories, especially RPGs, with this exact setup where the climax comes about after the heroes fail to stop the apocalyptic threat from being unleashed, and while I don't think this has to end like that it still easily could.

[drazen]

Still, nothing stops Calder from bbqing Bloodfeast and having a feast on bloody dinosaur shish kebabs.

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.

[danielxcutter]

Dragons do require something like 1d4+1 rounds between breath weapon uses, so it might not be ready yet, even if he can still use it with a dinosaur butt blocking his mouth and a dislocated jaw.

[Kardwill]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.

If we want to go "by the rules", then Calder has to "reload" his firepreath for a few rounds (1 firebreath every 3 rounds in D&D3, IIRC).

But "somebody just polymorphed a giant dino inside your mouth" is squarely in the domain of "DM rulings and rule-of-cool", not hard written rules, anyway ^^

[The MunchKING]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

Well he's got to wait 1d4 rounds to fire again anyway, by which time Bloodfeast will presumably climb out of Caldur's mouth and start attacking again.

[DavidSh]

... and a dislocated jaw.
Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

[Tzardok]

Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

The Draconomicon does. :smalltongue:

[Dellmarcus]

HOLY {scrubbed}!!! That's awesome! I know that we're nearing the end, so super cool stuff is to be expected, but that's SOOOO cool! I was worried about Belkar's buddy, but that's a *perfect* way to deal with a dragon! I love it! :)

[subtledoctor]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

So you’re saying Belkar comes first? Yeah, that makes sense.

[danielxcutter]

Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

Probably in a way that doesn't prevent severe injuries from a lizard turning into a dinosaur mid-chew.

[bunsen_h]

My friend, as someone who's favorite class is sorcerer, let me assure you: if you only have one slot, you figure out how to make it fit any situation. :smallamused:

Bugsby's Versatile Hammer?

[Frogwarrior]

calling it now: bloodfeast will turn out to be MitD's parent (some deity did it with an allosaurus)

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html)

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

[arimareiji]

Bugsby's Versatile Hammer?

It's a shame this spell wasn't invented before Nale bit it.

Edit: Although maybe it's in the spell description? It casts an illusion over the target making it look like him.

[skim172]

Dispel Magic and its Greater version have two cast modes: single-target and area of effect.

For the single-target option, we have this problem, as per the Magic Overview section of the PHB:



And as for the AoE option, we have this one:



TL;DR: Once swallowed, it is no longer a valid target for dispelling (unless you cut an opening into the digestive tract).

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

[Ruck]

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html)

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

I'll bet against that.

[brian 333]

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

Darth V did it the only right way. Magical vision would not help because seeing or not seeing the target is not the issue. Being able to trace an uninterrupted line of effect between the source and the target, with a minimum 1 square foot opening is required. Even a sheet of glass blocks rays, emanations, and lines of effect for spellcasting.

[skim172]

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html)

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

[Ruck]

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

I also think the comic has long moved past the point where Rich would use V's gender as a source of cheap jokes.

[Shadowknight12]

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

The main issue is that you would need something that is likely to be swallowed whole. Objects in D&D can be destroyed (and therefore no longer be valid targets), and it would be highly difficult to argue that the process of trituration and digestion do not destroy the food that is ingested.

Assuming you trick someone into swallowing something whole (such as a pill or a seed) you would need to make it immune to acid, because as per the spell Polymorph Any Object (which is what you'd be using here):


Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.

But even if you do that, the rules don't really say anywhere what happens if a timed polymorph spell ends and you're inside a place that cannot hold you. If we go by similar Transmutation spells such as Enlarge Person, you have to make a Strength check to break through your constraints or you simply stop growing.

However, assuming it does work the way you want it to work, you will be pleased to know that a very similar event occurs in the Pathfinder game "Kingmaker".

Monsters burst out of your citizens, killing the victim and rampaging the area (though in the game's case the process is slightly different: instead of a monster being polymorphed into a seed, the seed contains a portal that opens inside the victim and through which the monster emerges from another plane).


Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

Unfortunately the rules very specifically call it a Line of Effect and not a line of sight precisely because magical divination renders vision into an area trivial. Solid objects (such as glass) block Line of Effect regardless of whether you can see through them or not (though a hole at least 1 square foot big allows you to cast through a solid barrier).

[gbaji]

The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.

Agree with these. But none are particularly relevant to whether or not TE will find some faster route to the gate room (which is what we're actually talking about).


There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.

Sure. As someone mentioned above, there are other characters to be resolved, but those will almost certianly be deneoument (ie: after the resolution of whatever happens here in the Final Dungeon). The only characters other than TE and the Order who arguably will need to be involved in the fight in the Final Dungeon is the IFCC, and they have means to do that (they're archfieds and have epic level magic available, plus some unknown artifact, and literally have a "man on the inside" in the form of V).


So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

Why not? None of the remaining storytelling requirements involving the final gate preclude the Order arriving first, then TE arriving, and then a fight breaking out. That's not to say that we could not have some other more roundabout process occur, but Occam's razor says that this is by far the most likely way for things to happen.


The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.

Sure. But wrapping up this fight, then having another strip or three of the Order continuing on to the gateroom doesn't take up too much strip space. Then fast fowarding a couple days, having TE find the portal, then spend a few strips on them dealing with the traps also doesn't take up much strip space.

And this gets us, fairily directly, into "final battle between TE and the Order", and also allows for "TE is weakened by the traps, which makes this more of an even fight".


You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes. So the good guys are going to make a run for it and avoid a direct confrontation to the death. Just like the dwarves did earlier this morning.

If the fight goes off "now", meaning the way you are proposing: (ie: Calder runs and somehow breaks an entrance into the Final Dungeon, allowing TE to get dfirectly inside and bypass the traps, and attack the Order while the Order is weakened from their fight with Calder and TE is still at mostly full strength), then yeah, that happens, and it's a problem.

We solve that problem by *not* having your proposal happen in the first place. If Calder does *not* create some kind of short cut for TE, then TE must fight their way through the traps, and this gives the Order time to fully recover (a full rest or two, with plenty of time for rezes if needed), and TE to arrive somewhat weakened. It's just strange to me that you propose something that creates the very problem you then argue has to be resolved by somehow preventing the Order from getting to the gateroom in the first place (when they are already close, and TE is arguably 2-3 days away).

All we have to do it not mess up the status quo and the story works just fine. I fully expect there will be more to it than just that, but I do think the general order of "Order arrives at the gate and sets up defenses" followed by "TE arrives a couple days later" will happen.


Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?

And this gets us to the final confrontation between TE and the Order faster how? You seem to want to reject the whole "TE must travel through the dungeon" bit because it would take up too many strips to show, but now want to inject this strange extra sequence where TE gets the upper hand, the Order flees somewhere (spending more strips), then TE has to deal with some other problem berfore starting their ritual (which consumes more strips), and then the Order comes back and attacks later?

How is that at all better? That takes up more strips/time, and serves no purpose, since at the end, we're still right where we'd have been if we'd simply not done any of that in the first place.


The point is that any good story will put the bad guys with the advantage to make it that much more dramatic when the good guys defeat them. So team evil need to be the ones with the upper hand so they will have the advantage of guarding the flag for a while.

The bad guys do have an advantage. They have an epic level lich, and a near epic level cleric, as well as a super powerful MitD, plus Oona, plus Greyview. In a straight up fight, TE would likeliy wipe the floor with the Order. This is the whole reason why Serini tried to stop the Order. She assumes they can't beat Xykon alone, let alone Xykon plus friends. TE already has an advantage. What will give the good guys a chance is the very things you seem to want to elminate (I'll note you didn't actually explain how the Order is supposed to actually win against TE, if TE starts out in the gate room, with time to set up defenses, and at full strength).

It will be a "good story", because the Order will use planning and positioning (and the traps in the dungeon) to give them the advantage they need to defeat TE, but then things will swing differently when the real antagnoists show up and upset the apple cart (the IFCC). IMO, TE will be defeated, but largely because Xykon needs to be for Roy to fulfill the bloodoath (and Xykon is just plain evil), and Redcloak needs to be used for the 4th quiddity. But they will not be the final opponent that needs to be defeated. IMO, the IFCC, and whatever they have planned willl become the real threat that will have to be dealt with.


That is the time where all the other plots come into place.

Right. But the only "other plots" that are out there and which involve the gate(s) is the IFCC. So... Giving TE the advantage and then adding the IFCC into the mix seems like a hard sequence to deal with (not a lot of "back and forth there", and a lot mroe of "we lose, then we lose some more"). As I said above, it works far better if the Order has the advantage, seems to be winning against TE, and *then* the IFCC shows up.


I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates. How would that work if this dungeon crawling isn't stopped?
Good guys make it to the gate, make camp, Xykon shows up 2 days later attacks them and Redcloak just decides to change his mind mid-fight? Will they defeat team evil and then hold Redcloak as prisoner until he cooperates?

The whole "Recloak and Xykon are both planning to betray eachother" side plot has been foreshadowed since the fall of Azure City. So yeah. I fully expect that will be the exact sequence of events (or close enough). At some point in the battle, something will be revealed with shows that Redcloaks plan does not include Xykon, Xykon will try to kill Redcloak (using the MitD perhaps), Redcloak will turn on Xykon (almost certainly involving his fake phylactery). Hillarity will ensue. Xykon will be killed, Redcloak will realize that "the plan" isn't going to work, and consider working with the Order as Durkon proposed, and then <IFCC shows up>.

Exact order of this sequence may vary, but some variation of that will likely happen.

The point is that whatever happens, it will happen in the Final Dungeon, and at the Final Gate. Well, the Order is in the Final Dungeon and heading towards the Final Gate. TE is heading towards the Final Dungeon, so they can get to the Final Gate. I'm not sure how blowing holes in the dungeon changes this, or ssomehow makes this work better, or whatever. The sequence as it's going right now pretty much sets up exactly the circumstances the story needs to get to a resolution. Sure. We could speculate additional twists and turns, but I'm not seeing the value at this point in having too many extra steps between now and "both teams are in the gateroom fighting each other".


Not going to happen. They have to put a pause on the whole thing and other events will happen to get Redcloak to start thinking on things.

Other than taking more time, what "other events" do you think would happen to make this more likely? To me, all of the elements needed for Xykon and Redcloak to turn on each other are already present and in play. Injecting some additional gyrations on the way to the final battle at the final gate isn't going to buy the story anything in that regard.


I'll even repeat my earlier prediction on exactly what that is

Hel has to go all or nothing at this point as she has nothing to lose. She will send a vampire to the north pole that will join team evil in an attempt to get them to rush to execute their plans - which based on what Loki said would mean the gods still have a chance in 10 minutes to destroy the world thus sealing her win.

Said vampire will get team evil to argue and Xykon's preference to undead and likely finding out that Redcloak lied to him about the ritual will cause them to split up and Redcloak leaves team evil to realize that Xykon getting the gate by himself will be the death of all goblins and would finally realize he is better off compromising for the safety of his people.



I'm not sure how adding yet another completely new element into the story at this late stage is needed, let alone "better". Hel's part in this story is done.


Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Yes. It's called "polymorph" the standard spell lasts one minute per level. May not be long enough to cook up a meal, but certainly enough time by default for large creature, polymorphed into something small, to be eaten (certainly by some monster that may be ok with eating things alive and/or raw).

How the result is ruled by the GM is... well... up to the GM. I would probably rule that parts of a body, when removed from the whole, lose any special magical associations (like returning when polymorph ends maybe?). The spell acts on a whole creature, so presumably would only restore the whole (or the major remaining/living part) of the creature to normal when the spell ends. So if the entire creature is killed, chewed up, and swallowed? Nothing left of the polymorphed form to return to the original.

Honestly? There are a host of really strange and absurdly powerful (and silly) things you can do with inventive use of the various shape changing and transmuting spells in the game. It's more or less a rabbit hole of unlimited depth if you really want to go there.

[drazen]

IMO, TE will be defeated, but largely because Xykon needs to be for Roy to fulfill the bloodoath (and Xykon is just plain evil), and Redcloak needs to be used for the 4th quiddity. But they will not be the final opponent that needs to be defeated. IMO, the IFCC, and whatever they have planned willl become the real threat that will have to be dealt with.

One of the other things I have maintained -- even since long before Serini asking Roy if he'd help Xykon if it's "the best deal for the most people" -- is that the ultimate "defeat" of Xykon will not be simply destroying him and his phylactery in a final climactic battle and sending his soul to the Lower Planes in the traditional sense. No, Hel is wasting away in this world due to lack of souls, and why would Xykon want to be a mere mortal ruler of the world when he could be ascended to literal (in his mind, all-powerful) godhood and replace the God(dess) of Death and Disease?

It has the perfect double dramatic ending for TWO characters: Eugene ultimately can't get into the Afterlife because there has been no horrible vengeance upon Xykon, nor has he been defeated or destroyed. However, Xykon will find it to be a monkey's paw ending: sure, he ascended into insane godly power -- but the rules of the gods will limit him in a way that he absolutely hates , but won't actually be able to do anything about while outnumbered.

As a bonus, Eugene and Roy will never agree about the superiority of magic, because Roy didn't really "kill" Xykon, and he was using a magic sword the whole time anyway.

I'll even make up a new ridiculous, silly prediction right now: when the Vector Legion is defeated off-panel, Shoulder Pad Guy shacks up with Jiminy and starts working at the polearm shop. He even helps him get some real polearms.

[konradknox]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now? :smallconfused:

Just to troll him! He coulda done it all this time! :D Brilliant.
Didn't want Belkar to have an upper hand in the order hierarchy.

[arimareiji]

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

Thank you for the involuntary bark of laughter. XD

[OvisCaedo]

Calder was brought down to the ground, and is getting back up, but doesn't really look like he's taken flight again... but Roy seems to still be throwing his sword instead of full attacking in melee. Except Roy WAS melee attacking last comic, so maybe Calder HAS actually gone back into the air already and it's just hard to tell.

I was mostly thinking about this because, as much as class tiers got clowned on in 3.5, a high level two-handed fightervever *actually* being allowed to full attack in melee has pretty high damage output, if built competently (even just vanilla competently, not cheesy or obscure feats). He should be able to really put the hurt on Calder if he can just go to town for a round or two.

[danielxcutter]

It probably helps that Roy's almost certainly focused his build around the Weapon Focus feat tree. Each swing probably does almost 30 damage without Power Attack.

[Oleander]

If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes.

While I agree the story isn't likely to be a TPK, I don't think it's obvious that TE can't win. Given the presence of the Law Bot, the most likely outcome of a direct encounter now is that OOTS is force trapped, not killed.

We're still have a number of back-and-forths in store, I think.

[Jay R]

It has the perfect double dramatic ending for TWO characters: Eugene ultimately can't get into the Afterlife because there has been no horrible vengeance upon Xykon, nor has he been defeated or destroyed. However, Xykon will find it to be a monkey's paw ending: sure, he ascended into insane godly power -- but the rules of the gods will limit him in a way that he absolutely hates , but won't actually be able to do anything about while outnumbered.

And in lieu of paradise, Roy just gets a picture of the exact look on Eugene's face (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) when he finds out he still doesn't get in.

Maybe a 50-foot marble statue...

[bunsen_h]

But even if you do that, the rules don't really say anywhere what happens if a timed polymorph spell ends and you're inside a place that cannot hold you. If we go by similar Transmutation spells such as Enlarge Person, you have to make a Strength check to break through your constraints or you simply stop growing.

There are similar complications with the Shrink Item (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm) spell. The description doesn't specify what happens if the item is contained when the spell wears off.


While I agree the story isn't likely to be a TPK, I don't think it's obvious that TE can't win. Given the presence of the Law Bot, the most likely outcome of a direct encounter now is that OOTS is force trapped, not killed.

The Quinton's contractual obligation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html) is "restraining all hostile creatures we encounter", apart from potential complications involving whether this final area is "behind the doors in this canyon". Do the Order count as "creatures"? I'm fairly sure that TE can't win except in some limited sense. I don't think that Xykon will survive, unless perhaps he's left trapped and frustrated forever in some truly inescapable container. I think that Redcloak will achieve considerable improvement in the status of goblinoids, though not by any route remotely similar to The Plan.

[Oleander]

Do the Order count as "creatures"?
:vaarsuvius: We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?


I'm fairly sure that TE can't win except in some limited sense.
I just meant in the scope of a single encounter, not the end-game.

[Jay R]

Do the Order count as "creatures"?

From the 3.5e Players Handbook, Glossary, page 306:

Creature: a living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

[Provengreil]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.

Currently the only thing stopping him is time, he just used a breath again. Be a couple rounds before it's ready again.

By then, Bloodfeast won't still be in Calder's mouth. The breath might well be blocked for some other reason by then, but it won't be because of a mouth full of dinosaur rump.

...You ever type/say a sentence and just admire it's rarity for a moment?



Calder was brought down to the ground, and is getting back up, but doesn't really look like he's taken flight again... but Roy seems to still be throwing his sword instead of full attacking in melee. Except Roy WAS melee attacking last comic, so maybe Calder HAS actually gone back into the air already and it's just hard to tell.

I was mostly thinking about this because, as much as class tiers got clowned on in 3.5, a high level two-handed fightervever *actually* being allowed to full attack in melee has pretty high damage output, if built competently (even just vanilla competently, not cheesy or obscure feats). He should be able to really put the hurt on Calder if he can just go to town for a round or two.

The comic blends some of the straight crunch from the game with the messier realities of a situation. Roy still throwing his sword is possibly the result of being unable to realistically approach in this round after retreating a bit from the flame breath, as it appears like Calder is actively trying to take back off.

[danielxcutter]

Also, using ranged attacks means not being in full attack range of a dragon. True dragons are blenders.

[elecampane]

<...>
The comic blends some of the straight crunch from the game with the messier realities of a situation. Roy still throwing his sword is possibly the result of being unable to realistically approach in this round after retreating a bit from the flame breath, as it appears like Calder is actively trying to take back off.

Roy could also be attempting a disarm attack — trying to knock Bloodfeast out of Calder's mouth, either out of strategic, or out of emotional reasons. Strong hit to the head could've made the dragon drop what he's holding in his jaws, as a DM I would've allowed the attempt.

[Story]

That is how a Nat 20 on the Dispel check would look.


IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.

[jokem]

I think Calder has had it. Proof once again you can never have enough hit points...

[danielxcutter]

IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.

I thought it was attack rolls and saving throws.

[zql]

And that, kids, it's why you have to always chew with your mouth closed.

[danielxcutter]

And that, kids, it's why you have to always chew with your mouth closed.

I don't know how most kids grew up but if everyone else had their food turn into dinosaurs I must have been cheated out of something.

[Peelee]

I don't know how most kids grew up but if everyone else had their food turn into dinosaurs I must have been cheated out of something.

Nonono, we didn't because we chewed with out mouths closed. You were cheated out of that in the same way you were cheated out of having a Disintegration ray aimed at you.

[Provengreil]

Also, using ranged attacks means not being in full attack range of a dragon. True dragons are blenders.

That's a thought, but I don't think that's his reasoning here. The only times Calder hasn't gone straight for the threat that would be quickest to eliminate was when he was wrestling Bloodfeast off of his throat. At that moment, that target would have been Belkar.

Even then, both Roy and Calder can clearly do action economics mid combat, and while a true dragon is a blender he's still not the entire OOTS. He was moving to get off the ground again.

All that said, I think that sword throw was mostly artistic, just to keep the comic frame where Rich needed it while still communicating the ongoing battle.

[Kardwill]

All that said, I think that sword throw was mostly artistic, just to keep the comic frame where Rich needed it while still communicating the ongoing battle.

Yes, it's a way to show the dragon is still under heavy attack without needing to put Roy in the frame.

[brian 333]

4 attacks/round + 5' step

Attack 1: melee @ +16 BAB
Attack 2: melee @ +11 BAB
Attack 3: melee @ +6 BAB
Attack 4: ranged attack @ +1 BAB
Reposition in anticipation of next round and "PWOK!"

Not sure how Roy gives up anything since the damage is the same for all four attacks. Certainly his Str Bonus is much higher than his Dex Bonus to hit, but we see Belkar hitting with his off-hand, so Calder's AC can't be ridiculously high.

[danielxcutter]

Roy can’t use Power Attack with ranged attacks, and Calder has a long enough reach for a five-foot step to be approximately worth jack squat in terms of getting away from his full attack.

[jokem]

4 attacks/round + 5' step

Attack 1: melee @ +16 BAB
Attack 2: melee @ +11 BAB
Attack 3: melee @ +6 BAB
Attack 4: ranged attack @ +1 BAB
Reposition in anticipation of next round and "PWOK!"

Not sure how Roy gives up anything since the damage is the same for all four attacks. Certainly his Str Bonus is much higher than his Dex Bonus to hit, but we see Belkar hitting with his off-hand, so Calder's AC can't be ridiculously high.

Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.

[danielxcutter]

Dragons have hilarious natural armor bonuses though. This does have the side effect of making them incredibly weak to touch attacks, though there’s a spell that just flat out turns it to a deflection bonus instead.

[Deathhappens]

You mean to tell me V could've done this at any time and Belkar hadn't threatened him with evisceration into doing it ages ago?

[Doug Lampert]

IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.


I thought it was attack rolls and saving throws.

It is indeed only attacks and saves (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll), checks (including skill checks, ability checks, and caster level checks) do not care at all about natural 1 or 20 beyond the numeric result.

[danielxcutter]

*air guitar riff*

[diplomancer]

What I like the best about the art in all this fight is how happy Bloodfeast looks throughout.

[arimareiji]

What I like the best about the art in all this fight is how happy Bloodfeast looks throughout.

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!" :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Time]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!" :smallbiggrin:

I have to agree with you there. Bloodfeast probably wanted to contribute more to the battle but knew it couldn't do much while in lizard form.

[Kardwill]

You mean to tell me V could've done this at any time and Belkar hadn't threatened him with evisceration into doing it ages ago?

Where would he have done that, though? On an Airship? In an underground dwarven city? In Gnometown? Or when they were trying to sneak around under Xykon's absence of nose?
An allosaurus is not very handy in most adventuring environments. If V transformed the dino earlier, then they would have been forced to either transform it back, or to leave him behind in the middle of the montains.

[KishouTheBadger]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here. Belkar might get a lot of EXP for this.

Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

[Kardwill]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here.

The little lizard/dino has been a valuable party member for some time. He's the one who carried the win during the Serini fight, when he brought Minrah (and, by extension, Belkar, Elan and V) back into the game.

Just like Mr Scruffy saved the day during the final battle against not-Durkon.

The Belkar Adorable Pets Team has been quite busy being low-key awesome :smallsmile:

[Provengreil]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here. Belkar might get a lot of EXP for this.

Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

I disagree with that characterization. Soon had an exceptionally strong moral founding: We can see that in his speech to Miko as she died, and in his resolution to any oath he takes. The fact that this shook out to the detriment of a character we currently support back when she tried to undermine that founding is not a strike against him.

[danielxcutter]

It’s worth remembering that while Soon likely had serious flaws the rest of the Scribblers were not exactly great either. Honestly I suspect Girard was at least as if not a worse problem than Soon.

[bunsen_h]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!" :smallbiggrin:

A dinosaur trained for fighting, who cannot pursue that "career". A giant carnivore, reduced to eating bugs and little critters (albeit they don't look so tiny when Bloodfeast is in lizard form). To the extent that he retains awareness of his past, his lizard form would have been very frustrating.

[gbaji]

Yes, it's a way to show the dragon is still under heavy attack without needing to put Roy in the frame.

Probably this.

Also, it looks like Calder has flipped upside up again, so presumably is flying again. I can't think of any reason for him not to just kinda automatically hover like 20' or so up in the air in this combat. I suspect the sudden arrival of a fully sized Bloodfeast in his mouth has brought him back down to the ground though.


Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.

Yeah. Given the high AC of the dragon (minimum 32 or higher depending on actual age category) Roy doing a full attack is still a "probably one, maybe two" hits per round situation. Dropping that AC down a couple points to get a better shot at one hit per round might be worth it. Hard to say. My 3.5 mechanics rules are a bit rusty though. Is there a damage difference when using his weapon thrown versus melee? That might also be a factor here.

My gut tells me that he should have greater damage over time by being in melee range and using full attacks, but that may not necessarily be the case (plus, there may be some beneift to him using just a single standard action instead of a full round, if the difference in damage output is minor anyway). Dunno.


Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

I'm not sure if Calder will try to surrender this time around, so that point may very well be moot. Also, I'm not sure how absolute the whole "must allow foes to surrender" bit is for a paladin. Think there was a conversation about this a few weeks ago, and the general consensus seemed like "it depends".

I also tend to think that Soon got a generally bad rap. From all actual observations of his behavior, he seems to have been a relatively level headed and sane paladin. While that still meant he was a paladin, and that may certainly have ruffled some feathers with the more chaotic members of his party (Serini and Girard), I suspect their interpretation and assumptions about him (and paladins in general) are quite a bit exaggerated. Girard assumed that Soon would break his oath, for example (and blamed Soon for Kraagor's death). Serini has made a series of assumptive statements about the paladins, only maybe half of which were actually correct.

If Calder does play the whole "I surrender; for real this time!" with them, I would not be surprised if the paladins, upon being informed of the events of the last time, and Calder's actions upon being released, would just be like "Yup. Had a chance for redemption, failed. Death penalty seems appropriate now", and move on.


Oh. As to Bloodfeast. If he survives this fight, I'm not sure what they'll do in the short term (could technically use polymorph on him, if there's only a shortish distance to go through small tunnels left to get to the gate). But, given Belkar's relatively short time left on this world, the good news is that we have another halfling right here, who has some experience working with and befriending monsters of all kinds. I could totally see Serini taking Bloodfeast if/when that happens.

[Shining Wrath]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

[Doug Lampert]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

Mr. Scruffy is almost certainly the animal companion. 3.0, you could have multiples and the limit was based on HD, but they had to be animals and 3.0 dinos weren't animals (they were beasts, a different category). 3.5 you only get one unless you take the wild cohort feat, and the first dinos show up at ranger level 14 and aren't that powerful. I think it's just a normal (advanced) allosaurus which Belkar used Animal Empanthy to befriend.

[brian 333]

It’s worth remembering that while Soon likely had serious flaws the rest of the Scribblers were not exactly great either. Honestly I suspect Girard was at least as if not a worse problem than Soon.

It has long been my opinion that Soon wasn't as bad as Serini remembers. The only time we actually saw him we saw a competent (to the point of scary) foe of Evil and a stern but compassionate father figure. Altogether, he seemed like a decent guy. Unraveling whose fault was whose 80 years ago is a task best left to the Deva on duty at the gates.

[Shining Wrath]

It has long been my opinion that Soon wasn't as bad as Serini remembers. The only time we actually saw him we saw a competent (to the point of scary) foe of Evil and a stern but compassionate father figure. Altogether, he seemed like a decent guy. Unraveling whose fault was whose 80 years ago is a task best left to the Deva on duty at the gates.

Let us remember that Serini was not unbiased - she was in love with Girard, due to that roguish (pun very much intended) sorcerer's charisma. The guy who was insulting her boyfriend was not going to get a fair treatment.

Soon's goodbye to Miko is one of the "Damn it's dusty in here, I'm not crying, you're crying" moments.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!" :smallbiggrin: Yep.


Soon's goodbye to Miko is one of the "Damn it's dusty in here, I'm not crying, you're crying" moments. It was well presented, yes.

[dtilque]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

But how did V take damage from the latest dragon's breath? A Red Dragon's breath weapon is a cone of fire and any being (except the dragon) in that cone takes damage. But V is way outside the cone, so he/she should not have taken any damage. The other members of the Order, except Haley, were plausibly in the cone, but not V.

[danielxcutter]

It looks like Calder's mouth was so close to the ground that the fire spread out, and also for older dragons their breath weapons are huge. I figure it's another product of OotS running on "mostly 3.5e with some verisimilitude added".

[Kardwill]

But how did V take damage from the latest dragon's breath? A Red Dragon's breath weapon is a cone of fire and any being (except the dragon) in that cone takes damage. But V is way outside the cone, so he/she should not have taken any damage. The other members of the Order, except Haley, were plausibly in the cone, but not V.

You can see V fleeing the "splash" of the firebreath in panel 1, and V has multiple burn marks on the face and on the robe in panel 5.

So either the cone "splashed" on the ground to include pretty much everyone except the flying characters, or Calder "sprayed" his breath across the entire room.

In any case, it's far less focused than his 2 previous blasts.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm. Actually, I think there were abilities that let dragons change the shape of their breath weapons? I think it might just have been a choice between lines and cones, though.

[Provengreil]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

I'd lay real money he knew who he really was the whole time. He's taken several actions throughout the last couple arcs that only make sense if he remembers his time as a large predator loyal to the team. Most notably, attacking the vampire instead of hiding and waking up Minrah to help fight Serini and Sunny.

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd lay real money he knew who he really was the whole time. He's taken several actions throughout the last couple arcs that only make sense if he remembers his time as a large predator loyal to the team. Most notably, attacking the vampire instead of hiding and waking up Minrah to help fight Serini and Sunny.

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

So Bloodfeast is smart, perhaps smarter than Belkar (Vaarsuvius sticks head into chat, pontificates at length about the use of low bars in limbo dancing, leaves), but maybe that's from Vector Legion training, not from being an animal companion.

[bunsen_h]

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

I theorize that Bloodfeast does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to reptiles: Hate or Lust.

EDIT: In evolutionary psychology, people refer to four basic drives: fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fornicating. The last of those is subject to unbowdlerization, of course.

[Peelee]

In evolutionary psychology, people refer to four basic drives: fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fornicating. The last of those is subject to unbowdlerization, of course.

Of course. My high school bio/natural sciences teacher described it as "the four F's - fighting, feeding, fleeing, and mating."

[Quizatzhaderac]

Some people are wondering how the order will get Bloodfeast out of the room. The obvious answer is the same way Serini got Calder into it.

Oh, look at the time! No more follow up questions!

Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.All thing equal, yes, bigger creatures are a little easier to hit; however, one size category generally means CR levels, and AC correlates strongly with AC.

So all things considered, bigger creatures are usually much harder to hit.