Using a red dragon as working ox

[Samael Morgenst]

A mere thought experiment, I thinked about that reading the Dark Mirror story about that blacksmith that kept monsters as slaves.

Up to what age category could a red dragon be safely used as a working animal to drag a plow - for bragging rights rather than true utility - using mundane means (non-magical)?

Detoothed, declawed and with clipped wings and tongue, the red would not be able to make natural weapons attacks, escape mundane chains or - most importantly - cast spells, at least untill he reaches caster level 6 (for Still and Silent spells). Which means Adult, for a red (over 100 years old).

There are other considerations to be made? Other ideas?

[Inevitability]

...are you forgetting the fire breath? I feel like you're forgetting the fire breath. Bit of an issue, that; once the dragon hits Very Young age it's dealing 4d10 damage with its breath, which will frequently damage iron (hardness 10) even after halving the damage for being fire.

Also, a Young red dragon (16 y/o) already has 25 strength, which is enough to break mundane chains 10% of the time (+7 vs DC 26).

Also, if we're letting it select its feats, a number of those grant SLAs or SUs that would at any rate make the dragon 'unsafe' to be around, and almost certainly allow it to escape as well. Shape Soulmeld (Acidic Splatter) would be the easiest way, but Fey Heritage + Fey Presence gives Charm Monster, and Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Presence gives Suggestion; both a wyrmling could already possess. Hidden Talent likewise has a number of choices that allow for easy escape, and Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder lets the dragon regrow a natural attack that deals enough to break metal.

[ShurikVch]

This reminded me of the Trustful Dragon (https://www.aparat.com/v/rbhvN) cartoon (although there dragon was used as a draft horse with a cart rather than ox with a plow): no detoothing/declawing was included - dragon just legitimately believed he's a horse (and thus - should work as a horse); when dragon was younger - he was told he's a dog (and believed it too :smallsmile:)

[Beni-Kujaku]

A RED dragon? Damn, you're not starting small, are you? I hope you're not valuing anything coming in front of your carriage too much, because 2d10 fire damage to anyone who steps in front of the dragon, even from wyrmling age, will kill most commoners and burn the crops you're trying to plow. It feels like you're thinking the only dangerous thing about dragons is that they cast spells. No, dragons are terrifying engine of destructions, armed literally from the tail to the teeth, who also happen to be able to cast spells.
Even if you somehow prevent it from breathing (maybe excising the Draconis Fundamentum, but I'm unsure how long the dragon would survive without it), Reds are so proud that you'd have to constantly whip it into doing anything. If you chain it and bind it to a plow, it will look at you with eyes darting with all the fire it cannot breathe at you and try to still attack you with its bare paws. Honestly the safest way is to simply Geas/Quest the dragon into helping you without harming any humanoid nor trying to escape, but you're probably not beating the pride of a fully capable red dragon of any age.


This reminded me of the Trustful Dragon (https://www.aparat.com/v/rbhvN) cartoon (although there dragon was used as a draft horse with a cart rather than ox with a plow): no detoothing/declawing was included - dragon just legitimately believed he's a horse (and thus - should work as a horse); when dragon was younger - he was told he's a dog (and believed it too :smallsmile:)

Aww, that was cute. I like when dragons live in harmony with other creatures, it's very much a "Gentle Giant" kind of story. When you treat them well, they treat you well (at least in general, it may not be the case for white, black and red D&D dragons).

[Samael Morgenst]

Yes, I totally forgot about the breath weapon. My bad.

So... mabye a steel muzzle (a customized manacle for the jaws), with a small lockable opening to feed the dragon throw a thin metal funnel.


and try to still attack you with its bare paws.

Declawed, and chained - can only slowly move forward or backwards.



Also, a Young red dragon (16 y/o) already has 25 strength, which is enough to break mundane chains 10% of the time (+7 vs DC 26).

Well, I said "mundane means", but I think that masterwork / perfect chains and manacles are something that any decently organized human group can arrange for, and totally mundane. Also, Young Adult red is Large. Aren't Large sized chains / manacles harder to break?

Beside that, there's no specific rules for this but I think it is feasible to forge heavier-than-normal chains.



Also, if we're letting it select its feats, a number of those grant SLAs or SUs that would at any rate make the dragon 'unsafe' to be around, and almost certainly allow it to escape as well. Shape Soulmeld (Acidic Splatter) would be the easiest way, but Fey Heritage + Fey Presence gives Charm Monster, and Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Presence gives Suggestion; both a wyrmling could already possess. Hidden Talent likewise has a number of choices that allow for easy escape, and Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder lets the dragon regrow a natural attack that deals enough to break metal.

Could those be circumvented by limiting the dragon sensory perception, since he must only drag a plow? Deafening, blinding, and the like...?

Anyhow, Bind Vestige is not feasible. According to its description:

" Once the seal is drawn, you must perform a ritual, requiring a full-round action to summon the corresponding vestige. During this time, you must touch the seal and call out to the vestige using both its name and its title. The ritual fails if you cannot be heard (for example, if you are within the area of a Silence spell). "

Clipped tongue and no claws as written in the OP. Can't draw the sigil or speak clearly. Manacles and iron muzzle for extra safety.




Aww, that was cute. I like when dragons live in harmony with other creatures, it's very much a "Gentle Giant" kind of story. When you treat them well, they treat you well (at least in general, it may not be the case for white, black and red D&D dragons).

The idea was almost the polar opposite...
a proud red dragon forced to toil as an ox serving common people, constantly mocked and berated.

[AMFV]

Yes, I totally forgot about the breath weapon. My bad.

So... mabye a steel muzzle (a customized manacle for the jaws), with a small lockable opening to feed the dragon throw a thin metal funnel.

So you're making the dragon completely ****ing useless for you. You could just buy a large animal. Like why use a Dragon when you have to make it completely garbage in order to stop it from killing you.



Declawed, and chained - can only slowly move forward or backwards.

Again, why would you do that? Now it is less useful than a summoned elemental. Like just summon an elemental, buy an elephant, buy a bunch of horses.

Edit: Like broh, I get that you're super obsessed with enslaving Dragons for some reason, but this is literally less practical than just buying some actual Oxen. They will happily pull something, and while they are dangerous they're not Red Dragon dangerous if they ever get out. Also there are no specific rules for removing Dragon claws. And many animals cannot be declawed without significant danger to the animal. Where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Do dragon tongues regrow? Do you have any idea about any of this?

[Samael Morgenst]

@AMFV: I wrote the reason very clearly in the OP. "more for bragging rights rather than true utility"

[AMFV]

@AMFV: I wrote the reason very clearly in the OP. "more for bragging rights rather than true utility"

So where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Who knows how to remove dragon tongues? Does your muzzle stop a breath weapon? There's nothing in the rules that would stop a breath weapon with a muzzle. Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night. Do their tongues stay clipped? Do they grow back? These are things you have to figure out the answer to. Also there are no mechanical rules for removing a creature's tongue, dragon or not.

[Inevitability]

Yes, I totally forgot about the breath weapon. My bad.

So... mabye a steel muzzle (a customized manacle for the jaws), with a small lockable opening to feed the dragon throw a thin metal funnel.

If a dragon can breathe, there's a path for the breath weapon to go out. Not at full strength perhaps, but I'd be very surprised if you can stand in front of it and be unharmed. And, of course, the funnel would definitely be affected by the fire breath, and the funnel can still melt.


Declawed, and chained - can only slowly move forward or backwards.

I've got to wonder here: what's the point? You say 'bragging rights' but at some point there's nothing to brag about, you just cut off everything that makes a dragon a dragon and then wrapped the sorry remnant in chains. That's like bragging about being an expert at riding wild horses without being bucked off; the horse just needs to be sedated first!


Well, I said "mundane means", but I think that masterwork / perfect chains and manacles are something that any decently organized human group can arrange for, and totally mundane. Also, Young Adult red is Large. Aren't Large sized chains / manacles harder to break?

Beside that, there's no specific rules for this but I think it is feasible to forge heavier-than-normal chains.

Break DCs are based on material, not on mass. Yes that is silly, yes that is how it works. Masterwork manacles are DC 28 instead of 26 to break so sure, add an age category to that, the dragon now escapes once it turns 26.

[Samael Morgenst]

So where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Who knows how to remove dragon tongues? Does your muzzle stop a breath weapon? There's nothing in the rules that would stop a breath weapon with a muzzle. Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night. Do their tongues stay clipped? Do they grow back?


I said clip, not remove. Too much risk of exanguination. Clip the tip to prevent coherent speaking, then cauterize with acid.
No, a dragon do not regrows naturally body parts without magic, as no creature does untill it has Regeneration or unless its explicitly stated in the description.

Anyway, another possible solution would be vocal cords clipping. I guess that any moderately skilled physician or butcher could manage that. Pluse a Cure Minor Wounds to stop bleeding, or a minor potion, or even just - for using no magic at all - a character specialized in the Heal skill.


If a dragon can breathe, there's a path for the breath weapon to go out. Not at full strength perhaps, but I'd be very surprised if you can stand in front of it and be unharmed. And, of course, the funnel would definitely be affected by the fire breath, and the funnel can still melt.

The funnel was meant to be put in place only when the dragon has to be feeded.
That said, I think a dragon can't breath fire correctly without opening his jaws. I think - but I'm not sure about that - it involves puffing the chest and a certain amount of effort. Mabye a chain helding tighly the ribcage can prevent this.


Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night.

True. Mabye it can be circumvented by locking the dragon's head in a pillory at night, so he can only aimlessly breath fire onward, possibly in a barren area.


---



I've got to wonder here: what's the point? You say 'bragging rights' but at some point there's nothing to brag about, you just cut off everything that makes a dragon a dragon and then wrapped the sorry remnant in chains. That's like bragging about being an expert at riding wild horses without being bucked off; the horse just needs to be sedated first!


An horse is an innocent animal.
A dire tiger too , as scary and mighty he may be, is just an animal and there would be no honor in breaking him.

But a red dragon? The iconic nearly-immortal monster that makes kings and commoner alike tremble, reduced to a mocked working beast?
That's cool.

[AMFV]

I said clip, not remove. Too much risk of exanguination. Clip the tip to prevent coherent speaking, then cauterize with acid.
No, a dragon do not regrows naturally body parts without magic, as no creature does untill it has Regeneration or unless its explicitly stated in the description.

Actually the rules are pretty silent on that issue. Lizards can regrow sections of tail and that's not listed under their description. So presumably long term regrowth is not actually something the rules are concerned with. And dragons are highly magical creatures. So you're literally playing with fire here.



Anyway, another possible solution would be vocal cords clipping. I guess that any moderately skilled physician or butcher could manage that. Pluse a Cure Minor Wounds to stop bleeding, or a minor potion, or even just - for using no magic at all - a character specialized in the Heal skill.[/Quote[

I want to know where you're getting that.

[QUOTE=Samael Morgenst;25994127]
The funnel was meant to be put in place only when the dragon has to be feeded.
That said, I think a dragon can't breath fire correctly without opening his jaws. I think - but I'm not sure about that - it involves puffing the chest and a certain amount of effort. Mabye a chain helding tighly the ribcage can prevent this.

Rules as Written the dragon does not have to be able to move and can breath while pinned or restrained. I don't know where you're getting that it "involves puffing the chest and a certain amount of effort"



Breath Weapon (Su)
Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Once a dragon breathes, it can’t breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds. A blast from a breath weapon always starts at any intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon’s choice, with an area as noted on the table below. If the breath weapon deals damage, creatures caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage; the DC depends on the dragon’s age and variety, and is given in each individual entry. Saves against nondamaging breath weapons use the same DC; the kind of saving throw is noted in the variety descriptions. The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Con modifier.

Breath weapons come in two basic shapes, line and cone, whose areas vary with the dragon’s size.

That's the whole text on breathing and there is nothing that says that muzzles or restraints of any kind have any impact on it. In fact GIVEN THAT IT IS BREATHING. It is likely that the dragon is to exhale as long as it can breath.



True. Mabye it can be circumvented by locking the dragon's head in a pillory at night, so he can only aimlessly breath fire onward, possibly in a barren area.

How do you know that won't permanently injure the dragon?



An horse is an innocent animal.
A dire tiger too , as scary and mighty he may be, is just an animal and there would be no honor in breaking him.

But a red dragon? The iconic nearly-immortal monster that makes kings and commoner alike tremble, reduced to a mocked working beast?
That's cool.

Broh, I'm gonna be honest this is very much not cool. This is into actually sketching people out territory. You're discussing an intelligent creature that you are mutilating and permanently enslaving. Like at an actual table this is very likely to skeeve people, and rightly so. It wouldn't make people tremble. It would make them sad. There's no honor in "breaking" any creature in the way you're describing, and again it's not likely to work.

The fact that the creature's intelligence is why you're saying that there is "honor" in doing this is just absolutely unconscionable. Like in a game it might be tolerable. But I would be very unhappy with any player that tried this crap.

[pabelfly]

The other problem with this plan is that you've really upset anyone that values the freedom of sentient beings, as well as any red dragons, and likely any other dragon doing this. And if you've decided to force a dragon into being a show of your personal strength, you're not really trying to keep it a secret either. I don't feel like someone stupid enough to make this overt display of being evil is going to last very long.

[Samael Morgenst]

The fact that the creature's intelligence is why you're saying that there is "honor" in doing this is just absolutely unconscionable. Like in a game it might be tolerable. But I would be very unhappy with any player that tried this crap.

It's not only the intelligence.

I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.

Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.

As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.

I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.

[AMFV]

The other problem with this plan is that you've really upset anyone that values the freedom of sentient beings, as well as any red dragons, and likely any other dragon doing this. And if you've decided to force a dragon into being a show of your personal strength, you're not really trying to keep it a secret either. I don't feel like someone stupid enough to make this overt display of being evil is going to last very long.

And not even that, if you're using it as a display other ****ing dragons are gonna find out about it, and they are not going to be happy. Like showing off "I captured a baby dragon and am now mutilating it..." is probably not going to get you far. Like frankly, even many Evil characters are going to find this extremely distasteful.


It's not only the intelligence.

So why is a Dire Tiger not appropriate? That's an animal that has the same exact kind of damage to human communities. They eat people.



I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.

Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.

As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.

You might want to recheck the intelligence scores on at least four of those... Scratch that, five of those.



I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.

Yes, and if a player told me that they were going to string up the big bad, gouge his tongue out, cut off part of his fingers, chain him so that he couldn't turn his head at night, and force him to slowly pull a plow. I would tell them to get the **** out of my game. And I'd be right in that. This is very skeezy stuff to talk about doing to an intelligent creature. Now like there are game settings where this sort of thing might happen, but the fact that you're missing the really obvious uncomfortable stuff here is definitely concerning.

[Samael Morgenst]

So why is a Dire Tiger not appropriate? That's an animal that has the same exact kind of damage to human communities. They eat people.

But it's not a conscious, deliberate and premeditate choice. They act upon natural instinct, and are therefore innocent.



ou might want to recheck the intelligence scores on at least four of those...

The other chromatic have intelligence, and are indeed malevolent, but they haven't that premeditated, clear, hubristic cruelty that only reds possess.




Yes, and if a player told me that they were going to string up the big bad, gouge his tongue out, cut off part of his fingers, chain him so that he couldn't turn his head at night, and force him to slowly pull a plow. I would tell them to get the **** out of my game. And I'd be right in that. This is very skeezy stuff to talk about doing to an intelligent creature. Now like there are game settings where this sort of thing might happen, but the fact that you're missing the really obvious uncomfortable stuff here is definitely concerning.


I realize it would not be a good thing to do. I'm not saying that I would do it.
But I can understand that people living for years - or generations! - under the red shadow may crave for retribution.



How do you know that won't permanently injure the dragon?

Why that should be a problem?

[Khatoblepas]

But it's not a conscious, deliberate and premeditate choice. They act upon natural instinct, and are therefore innocent.


The other chromatic have intelligence, and are indeed malevolent, but they haven't that premeditated, clear, hubristic cruelty that only reds possess.

Don't these two statements kind of contradict each other? Either a red dragon has free will, and thus can choose not to be cruel, making its enslavement an absolute abomination, or it cannot choose not to be cruel, thus acting on instinct alone, making it innocent.

You can't have it both ways, finding a sapient, thinking, feeling creature and doing the worst things to it justified by "it is just its nature to deserve this".

[pabelfly]

Torture is in the Book of Vile Darkness as an evil deed. Deciding to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.

[Samael Morgenst]

Let me explain myself better.

I don't think that non-red chromatic dragons are innocent. The overwhelming majority is indeed malevolent and evil. But there are degrees of evil

Dire tigers are innocents.
Non red chromatic dragons are evil, must be stopped, but to mutilate them into pseudo ox for bragging rights would undoubtably be evil and disproportionate.

Red dragons...
in my modest and fallible opinion, doing that to a red dragon could be, if not justifiable, at least understandable.



Torture is in the Book of Vile Darkness as an evil deed. Deciding to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.

I concur, but I think there are different degrees of evil, according to the underling motivations and circumstances.



Break DCs are based on material, not on mass. Yes that is silly, yes that is how it works. Masterwork manacles are DC 28 instead of 26 to break so sure, add an age category to that, the dragon now escapes once it turns 26.

True.
Well, it is an homebrew - ad hoc rule, and usually I don't use them, but this is just a thought experiment so...
mabye progressively sever part (not all) the tendons and/or the major muscle fascisce as the red grows? (permanent Strength damage, to keep it around 25 Strength)



Reds are so proud that you'd have to constantly whip it into doing anything.

They have scales, they can't be whipped. I was thinking more about a sharp elephant goad (an Ankhus).
According to the Draconomicon, removed scales regrow but weaker and thinner. Mabye a section of hide could be flayed from his hinderquarter, let naturally regrow thinnker, and then that point be pushed with the Ankhus to force the red moving forward.

[InvisibleBison]

Red dragons...
in my modest and fallible opinion, doing that to a red dragon could be, if not justifiable, at least understandable.

You are wrong.

[AMFV]

But it's not a conscious, deliberate and premeditate choice. They act upon natural instinct, and are therefore innocent.



The other chromatic have intelligence, and are indeed malevolent, but they haven't that premeditated, clear, hubristic cruelty that only reds possess.

I mean they definitely can possess that. But the thing is that because they are intelligent creatures they also could not possess those traits. They aren't bound by their nature.


Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Are you holding a trial for this dragon? Are you finding out that it is guilty of the acts you would claim it is prone to? I mean you're capturing it young. And certainly since you are not killing it, you are creating potentially a future problem since the dragon that you have abused is almost certainly not going to be one of those exceptions, if it was ever likely to be.



I realize it would not be a good thing to do. I'm not saying that I would do it.
But I can understand that people living for years - or generations! - under the red shadow may crave for retribution.

Retribution for wrongs caused by a different creature is not an appropriate reason to torture an unrelated creature.

to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.[/QUOTE]


Let me explain myself better.

I don't think that non-red chromatic dragons are innocent. The overwhelming majority is indeed malevolent and evil. But there are degrees of evil

Dire tigers are innocents.
Non red chromatic dragons are evil, must be stopped, but to mutilate them into pseudo ox for bragging rights would undoubtably be evil and disproportionate.

Red dragons...
in my modest and fallible opinion, doing that to a red dragon could be, if not justifiable, at least understandable.

But you're not doing it to a creature that has done those things

[Inevitability]

Okay, let's leave out the incongruous statements on inborn morality and focus purely on this as a question of mechanical possibility. The pattern there has been pretty consistent: someone lists a possible way for the dragon to affect the world and you say 'well what if we add more or better restraints'. So let's carry that one to its natural conclusion real quick:

The dragon looks like a metal roulade. Its legs are bound, its head is bound, its wings are bound, its tail is bound. It's either unable to breathe fire, or its head is kept straight up so it can only breathe into the air. The dragon has a sort of cone on its head (carefully angled so the breath weapon cannot touch the sides), and may be fed by throwing food into this cone. It can shuffle ahead very slowly thanks to a tiny amount of slack on its chains, and you could, technically, extract useful work from this movement. Perhaps there's a rail system embedded in the ground that the dragon is hooked up to as well, to further restrain its movement to a single approved path. There's also sufficient redundancy in the chains that individual components can be replaced or upsized without allowing the dragon any freedom.

The avenues of escape that remain here are the dragon breaking its chains (which will depend on whatever you consider an appropriate DC for the best possible restraints), and the dragon using its innate casting to get free (in theory Sudden Still Sudden Silent Eschew Materials Babau Slime could do the job as soon as you get magic, so young age). There's no need for any declawing or defanging, and your willingness to resort to those is rightfully creeping people out - there's not even a real need for cutting out the dragon's tongue, because if it's allowed to select metamagic feats as you suggest, it can get Sudden Silent anyway. Thus, the answer is either young or very young age.

So here you go, an answer to your beautifully designed thought experiment. I'm sorry if it doesn't contain enough cruelty disguised as practicality.

[Samael Morgenst]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it would be the right thing to do.
I've already clearly stated it isn't. It's an evil thing.

I just wanted to express my opinion, that given the very iconic role of the red dragon as symbol of ultimate oppression, many exhasperated humans would lean toward searching retaliation, to exorcise their own feat and humiliation by breaking a specimen of the otherwise fearsom kin.

That being said, yep, it's not justifiable although at least partially understandable.

But I also find it cool, above all.

To mock and drag around a red while telling him "Not so proud anymore, mh, Smaug?"

[spectralphoenix]

I mean, ultimately there aren't rules for this because D&D is a game about fighting monsters, not torturing and mutilating them. I'm not sure what response you're hoping to get here.

[Unoriginal]

It's not only the intelligence.

I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.

Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.

As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.

I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.

Someone who enslaves, tortures and mutilates a sapient being just because they want to show they can would be a contender for Big Bad, in typical D&D.

[Buufreak]

I just wanted to express my opinion, that given the very iconic role of the red dragon as symbol of ultimate oppression, many exhasperated humans would lean toward searching retaliation, to exorcise their own feat and humiliation by breaking a specimen of the otherwise fearsom kin.


And the most logical retaliation of the common folk, who are more likely true neutral than anything, and unlikely going to go through this many hoops and insane ideas of getting retribution, will just want the dragon dead. No chaining it. No mocking it. No taunting it. No dismemberment. They will simply say "that be a bad thing, and a menace to society. We should kill it."

The idea that any society, as a whole, would want to go through these measures really skews the idea of said society as quite the conglomeration of evil bastards, which they aren't (usually).

[ShurikVch]

Idea of "using a dragon for plowing" reminded me of something
I tried to remember it for a time - but, finally, I got it: Nikita the Tanner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Eg4kxhbgwc)!

[AvatarVecna]

It's not only the intelligence.

I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.

Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.

As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.

I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.

{Scrubbed} but someone being extremely evil themselves does not give you moral justification to be endlessly cruel to them. It would be extremely ****ed up if a total monster straight of out history books had their tongue cut out, their fingers cut off, their legs cut off at the knees, and they were forced to become a beast of burden for the amusement of their victims.

[JNAProductions]

It's not only the intelligence.

I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.

Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.

As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.

I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.

At least the youths die quickly.
They get eaten and are then dead.

Not “living” as a crippled slave.

I’ll echo the others who say that anyone who does this is an incredibly evil individual.

[Bohandas]

It's definitely something a balor or pit fiend might do though

[Samael Morgenst]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}, but someone being extremely evil themselves does not give you moral justification to be endlessly cruel to them.

The good aligned deities that signed the Pact Primeval with Asmodeus thought differently, or so it appears.



It would be extremely ****ed up if a total monster straight of out history books had their tongue cut out, their fingers cut off, their legs cut off at the knees, and they were forced to become a beast of burden for the amusement of their victims.

It would be very bad, but less bad than what those monsters did to each and every of their victims.



The idea that any society, as a whole, would want to go through these measures really skews the idea of said society as quite the conglomeration of evil bastards, which they aren't (usually).

Actually, the overwhelming majority of ancient cultures enthusiastically endorsed the public torture of enemies of the states and miscreants, from scaphism in ancient Persia to death by thousand cuts in imperial China, to crucifixion in Rome.

[AMFV]

The good aligned deities that signed the Pact Primeval with Asmodeus thought differently, or so it appears.

Actually their motivation wasn't to punish the evil creatures but to encourage the good creatures to be good. Also the Pact Primeval was basically a swindle.



It would be very bad, but less bad than what those monsters did to each and every of their victims.

Not really actually. And in this case we're talking about a creature that was captured before it ever fully matured.



Actually, the overwhelming majority of ancient cultures enthusiastically endorsed the public torture of enemies of the states and miscreants, from scaphism in ancient Persia to death by thousand cuts in imperial China, to crucifixion in Rome.

D&D isn't based on those cultures. Because their sensibilities would be a lot of an issue.


Okay, let's leave out the incongruous statements on inborn morality and focus purely on this as a question of mechanical possibility. The pattern there has been pretty consistent: someone lists a possible way for the dragon to affect the world and you say 'well what if we add more or better restraints'. So let's carry that one to its natural conclusion real quick:.

There's actually an even easier way for our Red Dragon to deal with this. We've allowed him to move so he can initiate martial maneuvers. Martial Study has plenty of options for this. All the Dragon needs is the ability to learn 2nd Level Maneuvers. Take Martial Study (Stone Dragon) Twice pick up any one maneuver and then take Mountain Hammer, then if you are able to move at all you can break any shackles. You can do this as a Wyrmling. The other option is to take Shadow Jaunt (which has no actual requirements) so you can snag that easily enough and teleport away! So you can escape as a Wyrmling Red Dragon

[Unoriginal]

Actually their motivation wasn't to punish the evil creatures but to encourage the good creatures to be good. Also the Pact Primeval was basically a swindle.

Also the Pact Primeval is an insulting addition to the lore that got largely ignored in editions that aren't 4e (which was the edition where Asmodeus was put on a weird "he's the strongest and smartest" pedestal for some reason).

I'm eternally glad it was retconned in 5e lore as early as the PHB (which made clear good deities didn't use anything at all to force people into being "good").

[Bohandas]

D&D isn't based on those cultures. Because their sensibilities would be a lot of an issue.

As far as I can tell D&D is based on Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament

[AMFV]

Also the Pact Primeval is an insulting addition to the lore that got largely ignored in editions that aren't 4e (which was the edition where Asmodeus was put on a weird "he's the strongest and smartest" pedestal for some reason).

I'm eternally glad it was retconned in 5e lore as early as the PHB (which made clear good deities didn't use anything at all to force people into being "good").

I like the idea of it as kind of a stopgap against Chaos. When I used that in lore I just generally say that the details of it aren't known to people. So some religious organizations might say that it was to "scare people into being good" Clerics of St. Cuthbert I'm looking at you. But nobody really knows the specifics except that it was intended to stop the spread of the abyss.


As far as I can tell D&D is based on Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament

That sounds about right!


https://youtu.be/2KKRiXcivAQ

Edit: I'm pretty sure I've ran games for this guy more than a few times.

[Buufreak]

Edit: I'm pretty sure I've ran games for this guy more than a few times.

SNL guy, or OP?

[AMFV]

SNL guy, or OP?

The SNL Guy

"My son murdered"

"Buuut he wasn't.."

[Crake]

I think we need a bit more clarity on what you mean by "mundane means". Because a level 20 fighter with no magic items is technically "mundane means".

You are, for example, completely ignoring the part of how you're gonna go about mutilating this red dragon without being eviscerated. Red dragons care for their eggs. Maybe not the wyrmlings that hatch from said eggs, but the eggs themselves are protected, as per the draconomicon:

"After mating, the younger dragon is usually left to guard the eggs. Most red wyrmlings are left to fend for themselves. Occasionally, two parents of about equal age mate and tend their young together."

So, you're very unlikely to get a red dragon egg via mundane means and live to talk about it, meaning you cant hatch the egg early and catch the wyrmling while it's vulnerable, hatching it before it's ready, in order to mutilate it before it is able to defend itself (and even if you could manage such a thing, you'd 9/10 induce system shock from the early hatching and mutilation and it would die before maturing)

On the other hand, if you're trying to capture a live wyrmling via mundane means, you're almost certainly doomed to failure. 40ft movement and 150ft fly speed means it's easily able to escape if it sees a fight going against it's favour, 17 strength, 1d8 bite, and 1d6 claws means this is like a rabid black bear on steroids, that is just as smart as you, and probably as tough as ten of your best men, while simultaneously being probably just as armored as you are purely naturally (AC16 = scale male + heavy shield).

And that's not even including the fact that a) it's probably hanging out in environments that you can't survive in, and b) it can probably mow down your whole team with one breath weapon (average 11 damage on it's 2d10 breath weapon, even on a save, 5 damage will kill the average level 1 warrior, expert, aristocrat, or level 2 commoner).

But a lot of this is solved by just being significantly higher level than the dragon in question, so again, it comes back around to: what do you mean by "mundane means".

[awa]

On the other hand, if you're trying to capture a live wyrmling via .

this feels related to his other thread how much does it cost to have a red dragon wyrmling kidnapped

[Crake]

this feels related to his other thread how much does it cost to have a red dragon wyrmling kidnapped

Probably, realistically they should be merged threads.

[Samael Morgenst]

To be honest, no, the intent was different.

The dragonegg was for a third party content that I found about alchemically prepared dragonegg eggnog granting permanent sorcerous powers.

[Remuko]

Probably, realistically they should be merged threads.

it feels like half the front page are all posts from this guy tbh

[Vaern]

A red dragon is more likely to respond well to positive reinforcement. If you detooth it, declaw it, and clip its wings, it's eventually going to turn on your and kill you. If you instead offer it a steady diet of insubordinate slaves, criminals, and prisoners of war in exchange for manual labor that's honestly probably trivial work for it anyway, it'll probably do whatever you ask and, more importantly, not try to murder you at the first opportunity it gets. That's how you get yourself a Themberchaud.

[Pugwampy]

I suggest get to lvl 20 first before you try to force a dragon to do your menial tasks

[Maat Mons]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

[pabelfly]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

I mean, if we're talking solely about getting labour done, you could just pay sme peasants to do the work. One silver piece per day gets you an untrained hireling working for you, and 8GP gets you a mule or donkey if you need something to pull a plow. Even at level 2 that's a trivial portion of your wealth. Having a red dragon to do this instead is to make a statement, but I'm really not sure OP is sending the statement he wants to be sending by doing this.

[Remuko]

That's how you get yourself a Themberchaud.

I loved him in the D&D movie! Chonky Dragon!

[Pugwampy]

I mean, if we're talking solely about getting labour done, you could just pay sme peasants to do the work. One silver piece per day gets you an untrained hireling working for you, and 8GP gets you a mule or donkey if you need something to pull a plow. Even at level 2 that's a trivial portion of your wealth. Having a red dragon to do this instead is to make a statement, but I'm really not sure OP is sending the statement he wants to be sending by doing this.


Or perhaps buy an ox ?

[AvatarVecna]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

You're forgetting that the manual labor is secondary. The primary point is being cruel to an Evil creature. It's about demeaning a thinking feeling creature you don't like to being little more than a beast of burden, crippling it specifically to make it's life worse, as punishment for being such a bad person itself.