Suggestion: Martial Class with many options

[yisopo]

I love to play casters in 5e because I love to have many options from my toolkit during the combat. I like the variety of the gameplay from having many option and I really like the tactical depth that comes with it.

So, I'm looking for a free third-party martial class comparable to casters in term of combat options. (Battle Master you say? No, I want more options! :biggrin:)


Thanks in advance! :-)

[yisopo]

None? :frown:

[MrStabby]

So I can't point to any... but I am keen to try and throw something together with time.

I have a few ideas, all on the complex side, and if there were ever a time to get all of these out again, it's now.

So thinking:

1) stances. Allow you to shift passive bonuses.

2) exertions, a bit like battlemaster manoeuvres

3) no extra attack. Its a massive power boost but cutting it free the class to pursue more situational damage boosts and the play-time class complexity is in engineering the right circumstances to get the bonus.

4) reaction focusse - possibly tied to stance and point 3. Spellchecker stance to disrupt spells, some defensive stance to use reaction to boost AC and so on.

Aiming for complexity through resource management, needing tactical positioning and target selection and possibly a martial equivalent of prepared spells for the day.

[Arkhios]

So I can't point to any... but I am keen to try and throw something together with time.

I have a few ideas, all on the complex side, and if there were ever a time to get all of these out again, it's now.

So thinking:

1) stances. Allow you to shift passive bonuses.

2) exertions, a bit like battlemaster manoeuvres

3) no extra attack. Its a massive power boost but cutting it free the class to pursue more situational damage boosts and the play-time class complexity is in engineering the right circumstances to get the bonus.

4) reaction focusse - possibly tied to stance and point 3. Spellchecker stance to disrupt spells, some defensive stance to use reaction to boost AC and so on.

Aiming for complexity through resource management, needing tactical positioning and target selection and possibly a martial equivalent of prepared spells for the day.

I think I'd keep Extra Attack as an optional feature that needs to be chosen day-by-day, like a spell, or part of a potential semi-subclass (maybe a Pact Boon-like approach?) Could also be a part one of the-how-many stances, too. Extra Attack in on itself is *kind of* passive ability, in a sense.

[yisopo]

What I would like to have from a tactician martial class:

1) Manoeuvrers/exertions more like spells, but definitively not spells because they are mundane in nature and (3).

2) Each exertion requires a specific amount of "martial points" in order to be activated.

3) You can combine different exertions in a single turn. This would be the biggest different between the "spell system" and the "exertion system". This vastly increase the tactical experience of this class. (Of course there is a limit of martial points you can spend each turn depending on your level.)

Regarding the effects of the exertions, they should take inspiration from manoeuvrers but also from spells and special weapons (fire arrows, acid arrows, poison arrow, net, smoke bomb, ...).

Here some spells that could be reworked (in description but also mechanically) to be exertions:

- Gust
- Thorn Whip
- Thunderclap
- Catapult
- Cause Fear
- Detect Poison and Disease
- Feather Fall
- Fog Cloud
- Grease
- Heroism
- Jump
- Longstrider
- Shield
- Snare
- Zephyr Strike
- Blindness/Deafness
- Cloud of Daggers
- Cordon of Arrows
- Hold Person
- Kinetic Jaunt
- Spider Climb
- ..............


I agree, the extra-attacks should probably be an exertion.

[MrStabby]

Ok, so lets sketch this out... a rought draft

Level 1
So at ths level we want to set the tone and give abilities we want whilst not giving anything to tempt people too much to dip into the class.
I would go with 2 skills proficiencies, d10 hit die, proficiency in Con saves and Int Saves (int or cha are weaker saves and don't thematically favour str over dex or vice versa). Proficiency in shields and medium armor (no heavy then pushes defensive stances to be more important).

Lets add exertions before stances. Its a resource that can scale with level in both effect and number so we can have these without it being too easy to dip for other classes. Lets give resource pool like monk Ki - per short rest and 1 per level. A deep pool wil be nice for a richer experience. Maybe start off with 4 options?


Level 2
Add a speed boost. Just something like 5ft per round. If part of the theme is the rigt tool for the right job... then we need to get the PC into the right place.
Add to this a +2 AC against opportunity atacks for the same reason. These are not enouh to dip the class but will support later abilities.

Level 3
Subclass

Level 4
ASI

Level 5
Lets add the first stance set here. A nice big boost. Use a bonus action to switch stance which takes effect at the start of your next turn - anticipation and coordinaton is key. Learn 3 stances to move between.

Level 6
Extra exertion options

Probably a ribbon feature

Level 7
Subclass Feature
Also learn the subclass stance for free

Level 8
ASI

Level 9
So at this point we are getting towards end of tier 2. We should have a class that has a bundle of options to use and it miht be time to introduce a new ability. I think readied attacks/opportunity attacks can make 2 attacks not just 1. This supports positioning, soft lock on enemies and lets the martial keep roling multiple attacks.

Level 10
Lets add another ribbon. Level 9 could be powerful as could level 11. Add another exertion option (if you pick the best ones for your character/campaign first then there are diminishing returns here) and another stance option

Level 11
You get an extra reaction. Whilst it looks strong with the level 9 ability I don't think it over the top. The readied action cant be doubled as you just have 1 action to ready. And outgoing enemies getting cut to ribbons? You are getting a very situational 5 attacks per cycle over action and two reactions. A fighter with an action, reaction and possibly a bonus action would get the same.

Level 12
ASI

Level 13
Subclass Feature

Lets also play with the increased mobility here. Another 5ft of movement. And another stance.

Level 14
Maybe allow two stances simultaniously?

Level 15
Another exertion option

Level 16
ASI

Level 17
Another big level. I am thinking advantage on opportunity attacks. I envisage a lot of tactical reactions that will incude this so it could be a serious buff. Also, when you use exertion to make an attack you can add your con modifier to damage. And another stance...

Level 18
Subclass feature (I personally feel subcasses often miss sexy capstones)

Level 19
ASI

Level 20
Recover some exertion. Not that cool or powerful but after a 2nd capstone from the subclass at level 18 its probably Ok to be a little toned down. And another stance and another exertion option.





Rough thoughts on Stances

1) Spellbreaker: Like the mageslayer feat
2) Dualist: Like the defensive dualist feat
3) Defender: AC boost and protection fighting style
4) Clairvoyant: Add con to your saving throw as a reaction
6) Bullwark: when entering the stance select a damage type. Resist it
7) Aggressor: Add proficiency bonus damage to the first attack you make each turn
9) Alert: No disadvantage for not seeing an enemy
10) Fulcrum: Add your con bonus to athletics and acrobatics checks, and strength saves
11) Trickster: Dex save or be knocked prone vs your opportunity attacks
12) Stonebreaker: Deal double damage to objects. Can chose to force a dex save rather than make an attack roll

[yisopo]

MrStabby, very interesting indeed! Keep us posted. ;-)

If I would create this class, let's name it The Tactician, I would avoid stances (aka shift passive bonuses) in order to push on exertions (aka manoeuvrers). (Besides, I want to focus on the tactic. Stances are more about strategy.)


Here some more details.


The Tactician starts with 4 known exertions and at each odd level this limit increases by 1. Moreover when they level up, they can choose one of the known exertions and replace it with another one. This is similar to the Bard known spell progression. A martial class with as many options as a caster: this is what I really want! :smallsmile:

Each exertion requires a specific amount of "tactical points" in order to be activated. But, in contrast with spells, high-power exertions doesn't exists. Maybe the strongest exertions should be comparable to level-2 spells.

So how does the Tactician keep up at higher levels? They can combine the exertions together! So, they can use more exertions in the same turns. This is the tactical essence of the Tactician! Of course there is a limit of how many tactical points the Tactician can use each turn based on their level.

As already said, the know exertion progression is similar to the Bard's know spell progression. Similar, but inferior. But this gap is compensated by the fact the exertions can be composed together.


What do you think on the general idea?

[Maat Mons]

I've heard good things about Spheres, a 3rd party Pathfinder supplement. I've never tried it myself. There's a 5e conversion. (http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/) Maybe worth checking out?

[DeTess]

There's the armiger, here: https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/18vShzema6j3JtAn7D3PUzbefF2kkR2jIwuctcqqezl8/mobilebasic#heading=h.y69fyc4xhgy

This might be a fun class to try out if you want a martial with more options. Though it is very supernatural in theming.

[JNAProductions]

Gonna drop a handy-dandy link here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?521278-Preset-Class-Tables-for-5e-Homebrew).

[KingJames]

Spheres of Power 5e has some solidly versatile classes.

[Damon_Tor]

The thief and its fast hands ability is good for this kind of thing. He can have a utility belt with caltrops, ball bearings, holy water, alchemists fire, acid, healing kit, manacles, etc.

[yisopo]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!

Anyway I see a big gap with the lacking of a mundane class with the combat versatility of the casters. It is days I'm designing such a class. I will share it very soon.

[Yakk]

My go-to "more complex martial" chassis is to use a Talent system.

You start with something like a half-caster spell progression. But instead of spell slots, these are Talents.

A Talent is something between a feat and a spell. It is a mechanical knob that lets you do something, usually (but not always) at-will.

So a level 1 Talent might be "lockpicker".

Assuming you have a set of thieves tools:

As a bonus action you can pick a DC 15 or lower lock.
As an action you can pick a DC 20 or lower lock.
In an hour you can pick a DC 25 lock.
With 24 hours of picking with thieves tools, you can pick any lock.

You are aware of any traps picking the lock might trigger before you set them off, but this Talent does not let you bypass them.

That is it. Just a veto over locks.

You can create similar "veto mechanics" abilities: "Long jump", "Monkey climb", "Wall run", "Pickpocket", "Lie detector". Even package up existing class features, like "Evasion".

A hard part is (a) doing the same for combat abilities, and (b) not having non-combat or combat abilities dominate.

For combat abilities, I think the best solution is to have Stances.

A Stance consists of 3 combat Talents which are active at a time. Possibly their total level is also limited.

You know a limited number of Stances, and switching between them has a modest cost. At higher levels you can fix more Talents into a Stance.

By limiting how many active combat Talents you have, we can avoid both "I am a combat god because every talent is a combat talent but I am useless outside of combat" and "combat talents suck because they are all designed not to stack or interact".

Initially your Stances consists of 1 Combat Talent.

The last thing to consider is to add some combat state to the class. I like a system where you build up points in combat, ideally assigned to a specific foe, by watching that foe be attacked or make attacks. Then you consume those points to do maneuvers on them.

Second, I like having a random factor here. The granularity of combat in D&D isn't fine enough to distinguish "they left an opening to the lower left", but without that you run into "I pick my ideal move and spam it", or (in 4e style) "I have a sequence of moves I use in this order in almost every fight". With a random factor, you have a pool of moves and maybe some ability to tweak them.

In 4e, I wrote up a die based system.

You'd take your encounter attack powers and put them on the red table. Each got a value from 1 to 6.
You'd take your daily attack power power and put them on the black table, again from 1 to 6.
You'd take your (non-at-will) utility powers and put them on the blue table, again from 1 to 6. Daily powers would have a black outline.

You'd roll 1 red, 1 black and 1 blue die each round.

The red die lets you use the power on the red table.
The blue die lets you use the power on the blue table, *unless* it has a black outline.

To use a black table power, you need to roll the same value on red and black die.
To use a black power on the blue table, you need to roll the same value on the blue and red OR blue and black die.

The idea is that your powers are not restricted by usage - they are just more or less likely to come up in a given situation.

Another approach would be to a deck of cards and a hand. As you observe your target attack or be attacked, you draw cards into your hand, then play them to attack them back. Observing a target fight before you engage becomes extremely powerful, as you can fill your hand full of great cards (up to a given hand size).

These both add to complexity-at-the-point-of-play - a lot of tactical improvisation.

[yisopo]

It is days I'm designing such a class. I will share it very soon.
You can find it here: [New Class] The Tactician, aka the mundane caster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?666989-New-Class-The-Tactician-aka-the-mundane-caster)