D&D (Faerun!) Lore Question - Western Dragons & Eastern Dragons

[lunasmeow]

Specifically... how do the two feel about each other? They're all "true" dragons, but eastern ones aren't chromatic nor metallic, and neither are they alignment locked by their type. Furthermore, oriental dragons are tied to the Celestial Bureaucracy, so how do they feel about Tiamat and Bahamut in general? Do they respect them but from a distance? Do they deny being linked to them in any way whatsoever? Is there a grudging truce between the two Dragon Gods and the Jade Court, where they just agree to not bother one another? Do the Eastern Dragons resent them for not following their "duty" or the "divine plan" of Asgorath, and fighting instead of mating to produce the "perfect" dragons? There's lots of ways this could go.

Normally Kara'Tur is far enough away from the Sword Coast that most players and DMs don't have to worry about this kind of thing, but in the campaign I'm in, the Cult of the Dragon has succeeded in releasing Tiamat from the Nine Hells. Now, her and Bahamut are at war again, and me and the DM are wondering if they'll be reaching out to their Eastern cousins for aid in an attempt to break the stalemate, or what, among other things.

Also, in case it matters, yes, we're playing in 5e, but we don't limit ourselves to 5e lore. We utilize all the lore of previous editions, treating it like a timeline, more than totally separate things.

[Unoriginal]

Specifically... how do the two feel about each other? They're all "true" dragons, but eastern ones aren't chromatic nor metallic, and neither are they alignment locked by their type. Furthermore, oriental dragons are tied to the Celestial Bureaucracy, so how do they feel about Tiamat and Bahamut in general? Do they respect them but from a distance? Do they deny being linked to them in any way whatsoever? Is there a grudging truce between the two Dragon Gods and the Jade Court, where they just agree to not bother one another? Do the Eastern Dragons resent them for not following their "duty" or the "divine plan" of Asgorath, and fighting instead of mating to produce the "perfect" dragons? There's lots of ways this could go.

Normally Kara'Tur is far enough away from the Sword Coast that most players and DMs don't have to worry about this kind of thing, but in the campaign I'm in, the Cult of the Dragon has succeeded in releasing Tiamat from the Nine Hells. Now, her and Bahamut are at war again, and me and the DM are wondering if they'll be reaching out to their Eastern cousins for aid in an attempt to break the stalemate, or what, among other things.

Depends which edition you're asking for.



Also, in case it matters, yes, we're playing in 5e, but we don't limit ourselves to 5e lore. We utilize all the lore of previous editions, treating it like a timeline, more than totally separate things.

Then the most explanations are:

1) the Eastern Dragons don't exist (or don't exist anymore).

2) They were Dragons once, but have since become Celestials.

3) They were always Celestials who just happen to have a form mortals correlate with Dragons, but were never Dragons.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or you can resort to what is in Fizban's and convert them all to gem dragons, which means the that Ruby Dragon analogue (the Tiamat/Bahamut figure) is not as present as either of the Chromatic or Metallic leaders is.

[lunasmeow]

I'll try to rephrase, since people seem to not understand what I said. I'll be as clear and concise as possible.

This is a lore question not a "how do I fix a potential plothole" or "what random ideas can you give me" question. I am asking, and only asking, one thing:What is the official lore on how these two types of dragons interact, from any time during the various editions, so that I have something official to base things off of.

I know how to make a fix if there is no real hard lore answer. If WotC just never had them interact, I can fix that myself. But what people are answering is not what was asked. I'm not asking for "ideas". I'm asking for hard lore facts. If the answer is, "there is no lore on this" then fine, I'll make something up. But please don't give me "ideas". I asked about lore. I appreciate the intent, but it's not what I need. I never need ideas. I only ever need to know if there is already actual official positions on things, so that I don't go trying to fill holes that already have been plugged.

Again, to be very clear - the intent of those answers is appreciated. But it's not what I asked at all. I asked "How do they feel about each other." Not "how can I retcon one to fit with the other?" I'm not trying to come off as a d*ck, but I don't know how else to clear up the confusion between what I said last time and what people seem to be interpreting despite the words being... fairly clear as far as I can tell. So unfortuantely, I have to be blunt as possible to try and clear up the misunderstanding, which, I know, comes off sounding dickish. Sorry for that, I just honestly have no other idea how to get this across in a less dickish sounding manner.

English is a pain like that, in that because you don't have multiple words for the same thing, the "tone" can tell you if it's polite vs rude, and other languages I could just use the right version of the word. It's worse with text too because there's no "voice" and we all tend to read things in the worst possible tone without any other frame of reference to put it in.

[Unoriginal]

I'll try to rephrase, since people seem to not understand what I said. I'll be as clear and concise as possible.

This is a lore question not a "how do I fix a potential plothole" or "what random ideas can you give me" question. I am asking, and only asking, one thing:What is the official lore on how these two types of dragons interact, from any time during the various editions, so that I have something official to base things off of.

I know how to make a fix if there is no real hard lore answer. If WotC just never had them interact, I can fix that myself. But what people are answering is not what was asked. I'm not asking for "ideas". I'm asking for hard lore facts. If the answer is, "there is no lore on this" then fine, I'll make something up. But please don't give me "ideas". I asked about lore. I appreciate the intent, but it's not what I need. I never need ideas. I only ever need to know if there is already actual official positions on things, so that I don't go trying to fill holes that already have been plugged.

Again, to be very clear - the intent of those answers is appreciated. But it's not what I asked at all. I asked "How do they feel about each other." Not "how can I retcon one to fit with the other?" I'm not trying to come off as a d*ck, but I don't know how else to clear up the confusion between what I said last time and what people seem to be interpreting despite the words being... fairly clear as far as I can tell. So unfortuantely, I have to be blunt as possible to try and clear up the misunderstanding, which, I know, comes off sounding dickish. Sorry for that, I just honestly have no other idea how to get this across in a less dickish sounding manner.

English is a pain like that, in that because you don't have multiple words for the same thing, the "tone" can tell you if it's polite vs rude, and other languages I could just use the right version of the word. It's worse with text too because there's no "voice" and we all tend to read things in the worst possible tone without any other frame of reference to put it in.

Alright, then the lore answer is that Eastern Dragons, separate fromthe Chromatic/Metalic/Gem ones, don't exist in 5e, be it on Toril or on any other world. And they have never existed.

[lunasmeow]

Alright, then the lore answer is that Eastern Dragons, separate fromthe Chromatic/Metalic/Gem ones, don't exist in 5e, be it on Toril or on any other world. And they have never existed.

Thank you. Do you have any information on how they may have interacted in prior editions since they very much did exist in those?

(I know the "official" answer from WotC is that each edition is stand-a-lone, but that's just... BS honestly, since they keep having people who showed up in earlier editions show up in later ones, and even the modern lore references past events. Which is why I treat it like a timeline instead - they seem to want to have it both ways, and that... doesn't work.)

Also, one further question for clarification: Why do you say they don't exist "and never did?" Is it because 5e specifically says such, or because 5e hasn't yet printed anything for them? Becuase one is very different than the other. Void Dragons only just got recently updated for 5e, so clearly not being printed "yet" doesn't equate to non-existence. Also, I'm certain that all the "other lands" described in Toril don't just vanish off the face of the world until a book is printed specifically mentioning them... I mean, are you trying to say Kara Tur itself is totally gone now? Or is there some lore that happened that did something to officially remove the oriental dragons? Because the "they never existed" is... odd.

Is this time shenanigans that someone officially pulled that caused this? Or is it just 5e says nothing on it? Because I already clearly said that I was using all editions for lore. Specifically because no single edition covers every part of the world, and this is a lengthy campain that will cover all of the world.

[Xervous]

It’s simply because 5e actively avoids lore in a variety of cases such as this. The amount of care put towards settings in 5e demands one look back to prior editions for information on most topics.

[Biggus]

I don't think this question has ever been addressed, unless it was in one of the very early D&D books I don't have. I can't find anything about how the Kara-tur creatures or cosmology interacts with Faerun's at all, never mind specifically for dragons. I suspect that because the two are very different they've deliberately avoided the question as it would be too hard to come up with an answer which made sense of both.

[Unoriginal]

Thank you. Do you have any information on how they may have interacted in prior editions since they very much did exist in those?

(I know the "official" answer from WotC is that each edition is stand-a-lone, but that's just... BS honestly, since they keep having people who showed up in earlier editions show up in later ones, and even the modern lore references past events. Which is why I treat it like a timeline instead - they seem to want to have it both ways, and that... doesn't work.)

Also, one further question for clarification: Why do you say they don't exist "and never did?" Is it because 5e specifically says such, or because 5e hasn't yet printed anything for them? Becuase one is very different than the other. Void Dragons only just got recently updated for 5e, so clearly not being printed "yet" doesn't equate to non-existence. Also, I'm certain that all the "other lands" described in Toril don't just vanish off the face of the world until a book is printed specifically mentioning them... I mean, are you trying to say Kara Tur itself is totally gone now? Or is there some lore that happened that did something to officially remove the oriental dragons? Because the "they never existed" is... odd.

Is this time shenanigans that someone officially pulled that caused this? Or is it just 5e says nothing on it? Because I already clearly said that I was using all editions for lore. Specifically because no single edition covers every part of the world, and this is a lengthy campain that will cover all of the world.

Using other editions' lore can help for things not covered by 5e, sure, but not when 5e retconned something.

The Fizban's retconned a lot of things about Dragons, and that new lore pushes Eastern Dragons/Lung out of the "not mentioned" category and into the "can't exist" one.

So if you play in 5e Forgotten Realms, then Eastern Dragons don't exist and have never existed.

For reference, there IS a continuity between editions, to an extent, but it is up to the latest edition to define what this continuity is. For example, it's canon that the Dragonborns showed up from another material plane world one day, as said in 4e, but it is very much *not* canon that Asmodeus became so powerful he managed to throw the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, in case it matters, yes, we're playing in 5e, but we don't limit ourselves to 5e lore. We utilize all the lore of previous editions, treating it like a timeline, more than totally separate things. Strongly suggest that you ask here.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/

Also suggest you look into the D&D 3.5 edition forum here at GitP, and do a search on dragons and lore. Your demand that someone else do your research for you has come across as a bit coarse. You may not have intended that...