What level is Tsukiko?

[Ramos]

Noticed she teleported no less than six vampires (?) in addition to herself? That means her arcane caster level is at least 18 unless we're not going by DnD rules.

Assuming Wizard 4/ Cleric 4/ Mystic Theurge 10 and practiced spellcaster: wizard, she has the CL required. A couple more conjuration-specialised feats and an item that boosts CL or two could drop her level to 14 though.

[kpenguin]

Teleport works differently in OOTSworld then in DnD. It allows the caster to carry more people than they otherwise would be.

Otherwise, AC would have had a very powerful lvl 18 wizard just chaueffering people around.

[Irbis]

Teleport works differently in OOTSworld then in DnD. It allows the caster to carry more people than they otherwise would be.

Otherwise, AC would have had a very powerful lvl 18 wizard just chaueffering people around.

You mean that drunken pile of gnawed-upon bones? :smalltongue:

Yes, he was 17+ level. Was. :smallsigh:

[mockingbyrd7]

Teleport works differently in OOTSworld then in DnD. It allows the caster to carry more people than they otherwise would be.

Otherwise, AC would have had a very powerful lvl 18 wizard just chaueffering people around.

Well, after all, Shojo did say that wizard was "his most powerful wizard".

[LordVader]

But the highest-level paladin was around the level of the OOTS, correct? So it doesn't really seem feasible that there would have been a member of any class 5+ levels above the OOTS.

[Kish]

But the highest-level paladin was around the level of the OOTS, correct?
Decidedly uncertain. Considering she thrashed the Order* all by herself** twice, we can say with certainty that she was not noticeably below their level.

* With, of course, certain handicaps to the Order, but not nearly enough to make up for the lopsided numbers.
** Windstriker being one of her class features, I'm treating his aid as not making it not-all-by-herself. In any case, six versus two, or even five versus two if you count Durkon out entirely despite his heals the second time, is still pretty lopsided.

[Nerdanel]

Hinjo should be somewhere around the OOTS level, but Miko was higher. Any OOTS member < Redcloak < Miko.

[Superglucose]

Decidedly uncertain. Considering she thrashed the Order* all by herself** twice, we can say with certainty that she was not noticeably below their level.

* With, of course, certain handicaps to the Order, but not nearly enough to make up for the lopsided numbers.
** Windstriker being one of her class features, I'm treating his aid as not making it not-all-by-herself. In any case, six versus two, or even five versus two if you count Durkon out entirely despite his heals the second time, is still pretty lopsided.

Except Belkar took her pretty well. Granted he lost, but it was a long, drawn out battle. And Belkar is a very unoptimized ranger.

[Kaelaroth]

I place Tsusiko at around level 15, just above how I see the average OOTSer...

[SoD]

12+ according to the CaLG thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61354).

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to Belkar being an unoptimised Ranger, he was optimised towards using stealth and hit and run attacks to the point where he could have killed Miko after knocking her out with the lead sheet. In regards to Tsukiko's level, she would need a minimum of 3 Cleric and Wizard levels (assuming that she doesn't have Sorcerer or Favoured Soul levels), so I'd say she's probably on Level 12 due to being able to use a level 5 spell (during the Battle for Azure City, Xykon told her to use her best inflict spell on him, and she used Inflict Critical Wounds, which suggests she didn't have access to Harm at the time so unless she's leveled up a lot she still may not have access to level 6 spells).

[Chronos]

(during the Battle for Azure City, Xykon told her to use her best inflict spell on him, and she used Inflict Critical Wounds, which suggests she didn't have access to Harm at the time so unless she's leveled up a lot she still may not have access to level 6 spells).Probably true, but it's also possible that she just didn't have it prepared that day. Evil clerics can cast Inflict spells spontaneously, but Harm, while similar, isn't an Inflict spell.

[Mewtarthio]

12+ according to the CaLG thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61354).

So she could take on Haley in a fight (the Order's around level 13, right?).


Well, after all, Shojo did say that wizard was "his most powerful wizard".

A level 18 Wizard is insanely powerful. There's no way he could have been a nameless NPC (at least, not to an ECL 13 party).

[DreadSpoon]

A level 18 Wizard is insanely powerful. There's no way he could have been a nameless NPC (at least, not to an ECL 13 party).

Sure he could. Just because YOU don't run nameless high-level NPCs doesn't mean other people don't. It's a horrifically stupid thing to do, but Rich has been known to do those kinds of things since it is part of the subtle D&D humor of the strip - making fun of bad gamers. For example, in the text of No Cure For the Paladin Blues, he stated that Miko is an example of a Paladin played "wrong."

There are many gaming groups that have super-high-level characters running around. Heck, just look at any gaming group with a DM with a small enough penis to be using the Epic Level Handbook. PCs popping around cities whose NPC guards have their own epic-level prestige class.

[menkent]

it also is possible that she's leveled up since the big battle, given how much animating of the dead and general necromantic fun has surely been going on while she flits around killing off the resistance npc's for X.

[Porthos]

As I just said in the other thread, are people really saying that Azure City wouldn't have done everything possible to resurrect the 18th level caster on a day of a battle?

Not. Buying. It.

Not even for a millisecond. :smalltongue: Especially with Hinjo commenting how devastating High Level Spellcasters are in a battle.

And I also find it hard to believe that an (again) 18th level spellcaster would be eaten by a giant bird. No matter how pissed he was. :smalltongue:

To put it another way, if Durkon (who is LG) can get spells from an (apparently) CG Thor, then Tsukiko and Teleport Wizard Guy can Teleport more people than what "normal" DnD allows. I.e. if Rich is (apparently) willing to homebrew rules in one respect, then why can't he homebrew in another respect?

And I would think that if we don't see Tsukiko cast any High Level Spells anytime soon, then the theory of Teleport being altered would be that much stronger. :smallamused:

[Tempest Fennac]

When there was another thread regarding why Telepoter Wzard didn't evacuate a load of people, I pionted out that he mush have been on level 18 due to transporting the entire Order, but someone else suggested from his low self esteem (as well as Hinjo appaently not being aware of the fact that he had dies) suggests that either Teleport works differently in OotS, or that he had 1 level of a PrC called Wayfarer's Guide which increases the effectivenss of teleport. If he had 1 level of Wayfarer's Guide, he could have been as low as level 10 assuming the teleport spell wasn't enhanced. I find it strange that Harm (and presumably Heal) can't be spontaneously used by Clerics (I know they don't have the word "inflict" or "cure" in the title, but they basically work like those spells). I did find it strange that Hinjo put most of his spellcasters on the inner walls considering how it limited the amound of enermies they could target (I know Arcane casters are vurnerable, but using Protection from Arrows would have kept them safe assuming that they were protected by the AC Fighters/Warriors). Then again, the Clerics didn't seem to be wearing armour and they didn't even seem to have weapons, so putting potentially battle-turning units in an ineffective position probably isn't that odd all things considered.

[Porthos]

If he had 1 level of Wayfarer's Guide, he could have been as low as level 10 assuming the teleport spell wasn't enhanced.

Not that it really matters, but you're off by one. :smallsmile: After quickly checking the Enhanced Capacity feature of the Wayfarer Guide, he would need to be Wiz 14/ WG1, Wiz 10/WG 2, or Wiz 9/WG 3 (this last one technically lets you take seven - but you need to be cast Teleport to be a Wayfarer Guide :smallwink: ).

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about that (I thought the rules were that WGs could transport 1 person/caster level rather then just 1 extra person with each level, but I misread the information).

[Fuzzy_Juan]

might it be possible to increase the number of people teleported with a metamagic rod of something like...empower...or something? Perhaps they count as cargo since they are dead?

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think that would work: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Teleport refers to creatures, which the undead things would class as rather then objects. A completely dead body may class as an item, but I don't think undead do. Metamagics could probably be used to improve the spell.

[Impikmin]

Hinjo should be somewhere around the OOTS level, but Miko was higher. Any OOTS member < Redcloak < Miko.

Meh! OOTS<:miko:<:redcloak:! :redcloak: is awesome :smalltongue:

[Ganurath]

Meh! OOTS<:miko:<:redcloak:! :redcloak: is awesome :smalltongue:Seconded. Only reason that fight went toward Miko was because she had good saves for being a Pally and she was going nova with her smites. Redcloak was being conservative and relying on epic lich backup.

On topic: I'm on the "Rich ex Machina" bandwagon. Or is it "DM stands for Deus ex Machina?"

[Spiky]

Meh! OOTS<:miko:<:redcloak:! :redcloak: is awesome :smalltongue:

The original comment was about levels, not your personal preference for a goblin over a hot human chick. (a little frightening, IMO)

[The Extinguisher]

The original comment was about levels, not your personal preference for a goblin over a hot human chick. (a little frightening, IMO)

Hey, we're not here to judge.

[David Argall]

Seconded. Only reason that fight went toward Miko was because she had good saves for being a Pally and she was going nova with her smites. Redcloak was being conservative and relying on epic lich backup.


Miko solidly and clearly whipped the tar out of Redcloak. It wasn't even close. Recall here that the lich bet on her to win.

Really, that is how the game plays. A cleric is not going to be able to melee a fighter type. Spells or not, he gets mashed. He's a support man. Give him two or three melee types to support and he more than pulls his weight, but you put him in the front line, he dies.

[factotum]

Probably true, but it's also possible that she just didn't have it prepared that day. Evil clerics can cast Inflict spells spontaneously, but Harm, while similar, isn't an Inflict spell.

Why would she NOT prepare her most powerful damaging spell when about to take part in a battle? She couldn't have been sure Team Evil would have been so eager to have her on their side, after all.

[Craig1f]

Why would she NOT prepare her most powerful damaging spell when about to take part in a battle? She couldn't have been sure Team Evil would have been so eager to have her on their side, after all.

I don't think she knew that AC was about to be attacked. Also, she was a resident of AC. She probably memorized a LOT of cure spells, so she could pretend to cast them spontaneously, so no one would realize she was evil. She probably had to try very hard to conceal her kilo-nazi level.

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed she wouldn't have been able to prepare spells before being released from gaol to fight in the battle due to how she probably would have ben kept in an anti-magic cell. Also, I don't think she was anywhere near close enough to the front lines to use any Cure spells (the spellcasters who she was with didn't seem to have been involved in the battle until Xykon attacked them).

[Mewtarthio]

Really, that is how the game plays. A cleric is not going to be able to melee a fighter type. Spells or not, he gets mashed. He's a support man. Give him two or three melee types to support and he more than pulls his weight, but you put him in the front line, he dies.

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm). Redcloak is now a Fighter with bonus strength and spellcasting.

[mregecko]

I'm on the side of "story effect" to explain the high number... Or maybe she had access to teleport circles? Red & Xy have had tons of time to buff this fortress out the wazoo... Tons of explanations.

[David Argall]

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm). Redcloak is now a Fighter with bonus strength and spellcasting.

Rather, Redcloak is then not so seriously an inferior fighter. The spell merely eliminates some of the disadvantages the cleric would have in melee. He still does not have the melee feats for example. And we are using a standard action here. We give the melee type a full round attack, or let her use a bow at range for a balanced comparison and Red is down a whole bunch of hp.

[Toxic_Shaman]

Not necessarily. A Cleric can keep up with a fighter pretty easily if he wants to. A Cleric with the right magic items, or the Feat Divine Metamagic could buff himself up with a Quickened Divine Power (no casting level increase) and still take a full round action. He could also cast a Persistent Divine Power long before a battle using Divine Metamagic if he had enough Turn attempts remaining (or Nightsticks), then cast a Quickened other Spell like Righteous Might, or some other buff in the first round of combat.

A fighter does have the advantage of Feats, but high level magic can close that gap pretty quickly. I've played in a game that had a high level cleric that made heavy use of Extended Spells, Quickened Spells (via a Rod of Metamagic), and a Persistant Divine Power spell. Consider that he did not have to spend as much money on gear as your average fighter (spells like Greater Magic Weapon replacing an expensive weapon, Magic Vestment replacing armor, Divine Power replacing a 36,000 gp Strength boosting magic item), instead he spent some cash on Prayer Beads of Karma to use every morning before he cast his series of buff spells, and left him a heck of a lot left over to use for other things.

He was as tough as a melee character even when surprised, and assuming he survived the surprise round, could wipe the floor against multiple equivalent level melee types without breaking too much of a sweat, unless they were characters specifically designed to counter characters like him. His first round he would cast a quickened spell, and from that point on he was the party fighter (unless the Druid or party Wizard wanted to perform that role that day, they were just as good at it)

Not all Clerics would be built this way of course, but even if they aren't spending even a little of their resources towards dealing with melee can allow them to better survive it, and still be able to do other things quite well.

[David Argall]

A Cleric can keep up with a fighter pretty easily if he wants to. A Cleric with the right magic items, or the Feat Divine Metamagic could buff himself up He could also cast a Persistent Divine Power long before a battle

A fighter does have the advantage of Feats, but high level magic can close that gap pretty quickly. Consider that he did not have to spend as much money on gear as your average fighter (spells like Greater Magic Weapon replacing an expensive weapon, Magic Vestment replacing armor, Divine Power replacing a 36,000 gp Strength boosting magic item), instead he spent some cash on Prayer Beads of Karma to use every morning before he cast his series of buff spells, and left him a heck of a lot left over to use for other things.

All this amounts to saying if we let the cleric cast spells while the fighter just sits around, the cleric does well.
I've seen buffed up fighters. They can kill this cleric in a full attack.

[Toxic_Shaman]

The cleric I'm describing is not buffing during combat, he's buffing long before combat with persistent or extended spells. Any spells cast during combat are swift action spells, allowing him a full attack option at well.

[Meek]

This argument has been had before at the Wizard's Character Optimization boards. Persistent Cleric is superior melee except for Sublime Way and this or that Barbarian (such as Frenzied Berserker). You can make a case for this before the cleric gets Divine Power, but by that time, with almost any setup and array, the Cleric just has more options than your typical Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, so on. That's all I'm saying though – you are free to continue an off-topic argument for as long as you want.

[Elephant]

Miko solidly and clearly whipped the tar out of Redcloak. It wasn't even close. Recall here that the lich bet on her to win.

Really, that is how the game plays. A cleric is not going to be able to melee a fighter type. Spells or not, he gets mashed. He's a support man. Give him two or three melee types to support and he more than pulls his weight, but you put him in the front line, he dies.

For a one-on-one fight? I have to disagree. Build a melee cleric and give him a couple of rounds to cast spells (okay, I'll admit that he's at a disadvantage in an ambush), and it becomes an even match.

Lvl 1 spells: Doom or Divine Favor + Magic Weapon will even out the attack bonuses (and give Clr a damage bonus for DF+MW). Shield of Faith gives Clr an AC advantage, making up for his lower HP.
Lvl 2 spells: Aid helps even out attack bonuses and boosts Clr HP, Bull's Strength lets Clr pull ahead on attack/damage bonuses or compensates for Weapon Specialization. Spiritual Weapon and Summon Monster II both give the fighter type other sources of damage to worry about. Hold Person and Sound Burst could end the fight entirely.
Lvl 3 spells: Prayer helps even out attack/damage values, and Summon Monster III brings some good backup to the fray. Bestow Curse, Blindness, and Contagion can all degrade the fighter's effectiveness to below that of a spell-less Cleric.

And once you consider levels 7+, it's no comparison. Clr casts Divine Power, he matches the Fighter's BAB, has better Strength, and still has numerous spells available for self-buffing, healing, and hindering/harming his foe. The only thing he still lacks is HP - and that's mitigated by AC-boosting spells, Bear's Endurance, and Cure spells.

[Elephant]

All this amounts to saying if we let the cleric cast spells while the fighter just sits around, the cleric does well.
I've seen buffed up fighters. They can kill this cleric in a full attack.

Why does the argument for "fighters beat clerics" always hinge on scenarios that strip the Cleric of his primary class feature? If you matched a fallen paladin using only improvised weapons against a cleric, of course the fallen paladin would lose.