Why DON’T you like Eberron? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

TheTeaMustFlow

2024-04-30, 06:08 AM

I like the surface, 'day-to-day' worldbuilding of Khorvaire - the Five Nations and their societies, Dragonmarked Houses and their role in the economy, Artificers, that sort of thing. Basically most of the stuff you think of when you think of Eberron. It has a fair few glaring holes or daft bits, but no more than pretty much any other published setting and less than many.

I'm really not fond of the cosmology, and strongly dislike a lot of the 'deep lore' - things connected to Argonessen, Sarlona, etc. In particular, the fact that these places are full of super-duper high level ubermonsters and characters makes a mockery of Eberron's claims to be more grounded and low-level than other settings, and makes Khorvaire - the supposed focus of the setting - feel like a pathetic backwater that the actually important places and groups are just leaving alone by fiat.

Io'lokar is the perfect example of this, with its humanoid inhabitants somehow all being ridiculously high level - to the point that it gives the example of a 'lowly clerk' being 15th level. (For reference, this is higher than every statted character in Five Nations save a Silver Flame-empowered Jaela Daran, including hardened war heroes, ancient vampires, and robosupervillains. The only real justification is given for this is 'dragons gave them some teaching and magic items...1200 years ago'.)

It also includes this line, which hurts my soul:

A tavernkeeper willing to barter a month’s lodging for a magic weapon makes no distinction between a +1 dagger and a +5 holy vorpal short sword of wounding.

The idea of equivocating between something that can be made by a low-level artificer in a couple of days, and something which would require an epic level character to dedicate years of their life towards (not to mention near 4 million gp and enough xp for a 14th level character - or a 'lowly clerk', I suppose) would be a stretch even when applied to something like a Fey or Slaan; the idea of a supposedly sane humanoid thinking like this is just laughable.

Metastachydium

2024-04-30, 06:49 AM

Artificers

That. That right there. Artificers are stupid, and their face is stupid and their stupid Warforged are stupid.

I'm really not fond of the cosmology

To be honest, I kinda disagree there. I like the odd, self-contained setup with the moons and the bleak&creepy afterlife moon in particular has some very fine classical pedigree.

The idea of equivocating between something that can be made by a low-level artificer in a couple of days, and something which would require an epic level character to dedicate years of their life towards (not to mention near 4 million gp and enough xp for a 14th level character - or a 'lowly clerk', I suppose) would be a stretch even when applied to something like a Fey or Slaan; the idea of a supposedly sane humanoid thinking like this is just laughable.

I don't quite remember the context and I'm NOT going to dig out DoE for just that (it's, um, not that good a book), but if our inkeeper can only Detect Magic, but not Identify its exact nature, I could see 'em just shrugging. And it's not like the guest is shortchanging them.

Prime32

2024-04-30, 07:26 AM

Io'lokar has got to be the single dumbest, gamiest piece of Eberron lore. Don't forget that the city is divided into tiers which only let in people above a certain level.*
Or the thrown-in "There's this guy, maybe he's like the real Kaius III or something", when there's already an established hook for that which is way more interesting (the masked prisoner in Dreadhold).

It's a shame, because Dragon of Eberron does introduce some fun mechanics and other interesting things.

* Not just for metagame reasons - it's established that HD exists in-universe as "the strength of the soul" and is somewhat measurable - but because declaring "only lv16 people can be innkeepers on this street, lv15 need not apply" is such a random and arbitrary thing to do .

glass

2024-04-30, 07:47 AM

Like several of the posters, there is quite a lot to like about Eberron (which is off topic for the thread), but there are a few things I dislike:

Twelve planes "orbiting" world and having an impact when close/losing influence when far away. Not because it is bad, but because my homebrew setting Pelhorin does the same and did it first*. People are going to assume I nicked it from Eberron when in fact I nicked it from somewhere else entirely!**
Dodgy mechanical implementation of some cool concepts (exactly which mechanics are dodgy varies by edition).
Trying to make the cosmology more World-Axis-esque in 4e (including sticking Baator in there) and then AIUI shoe-horning the whole thing into the Great Wheel in 5e.
That I can never remember without checking how many Bs and Rs there are. :smallsmile:

I did not know about the level inflation on other continents TheTeaMustFlow*** mentioned until just now, otherwise it would probably have been on my list also.

* Technically, I started with six, but upped it to twelve to better suit other lore elements. The increase did happen after Eberron existed, but becoming more like Eberron was an unfortunate side-effect rather than the point.
** I think it was inspired by the Orrery cosmology in the 3e Manual of the Planes. But it might even have predated that, in which case I do not remember what exactly inspired it. In any case, the details are pretty different.
*** Great screen name, by the way.

Palanan

2024-04-30, 08:00 AM

Like others, I don't dislike it per se, just never really drawn to it.

I've always felt there were probably more interesting entries in the original competition, but for whatever reason Keith Baker's submission was the one they ran with. Nothing against him, and it would be a dream come true for a personal setting to receive the full sourcebook-and-supplements treatment. Just not a setting that really spoke to me.

The one element I liked the most is the warforged, and I wish Pathfinder had done a better job of providing a parallel. The wyrwoods are the closest approximation, but they're rather odd and hardly developed at all.

Xervous

2024-04-30, 08:51 AM

Firstly, I hate what Eberron did with dragons. I’m extremely particular about dragons and the whole legions of hesitant to act dragon Illuminati is a pitiful waste of their potential.

Beyond that instant deal breaker I don’t like warforged. I do not want a common, playable construct race in my D&D. I also view the setting’s handling of changelings as extraordinarily lighthearted and optimistic; I would be willing to entertain changelings in a setting if the setting treated them more like dopplers are considered in the Witcher books. Shifters are a delightful contrast in how the setting properly reacts to them.

I’ll echo the point of so many powerful actors lurking on the fringes, and the silliness on some of the other continents. I also dislike the cosmology and the big bads of the setting.

Though I will hold up City of Stormreach as one of the highest quality 3.5 books. The detail, personality and hooks are overly abundant therein.

Fero

2024-04-30, 11:51 AM

Like others, I don't actively dislike the setting but feel it is a bit weak compared to other options.

First, I vaguely recall WotC ran a contest among the community to create a new setting and then awarded the prize to one of their own people, even in the face of other, more compelling, settings. That left a bad taste in my mouth. [Note, the statement that WotC gave the award to one of their own was a pervasive, but apparently debunked, rumor]

Second, more substantively, Eberron always felt like a mismatch of disparate settings/genres that did not mesh well with each other or with the DnD rule system

Third, DnD already has many wonderful settings that it never developed for 3.5. Dark Sun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (to name a few) are all much more compelling to me than Eberron.

Finally, Eberron always felt like it was built with marketing, not story/setting first in mind. The whole setting screams early 2000s eXtreme in a way that aged poorly.

Again, these are just general impressions. I am by no means an expert in the setting.

glass

2024-04-30, 11:59 AM

First, I vaguely recall WotC ran a contest among the community to create a new setting and then awarded the prize to one of their own people, even in the face of other, more compelling, settings. That left a bad taste in my mouth.Wait, what?

As far as I heard at the time and since, Kieth Baker did not work for WotC prior to the setting search (he did afterwards, of course). What makes you say otherwise? Got a link?

Remuko

2024-04-30, 12:07 PM

Ozreth

2024-04-30, 12:08 PM

Like others, I don't actively dislike the setting but feel it is a bit weak compared to other options.

First, I vaguely recall WotC ran a contest among the community to create a new setting and then awarded the prize to one of their own people, even in the face of other, more compelling, settings. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

Second, more substantively, Eberron always felt like a mismatch of disparate settings/genres that did not mesh well with each other or with the DnD rule system

Third, DnD already has many wonderful settings that it never developed for 3.5. Dark Sun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (to name a few) are all much more compelling to me than Eberron.

Finally, Eberron always felt like it was built with marketing, not story/setting first in mind. The whole setting screams early 2000s eXtreme in a way that aged poorly.

Again, these are just general impressions. I am by no means an expert in the setting.

I can get behind a lot of your points. For as much as I like about the setting, I feel a lot of the same sentiments. But the bolded part I'm not sure about. I remember seeing accusations fly around at some point about that, but wasn't this heavily debunked?

Ozreth

2024-04-30, 12:09 PM

I don't. I'm fairly neutral on it. Never played in it. My group always played in homebrew worlds back in the day, loosely based on Greyhawk, since that's what (afaik) the core 3rd and 3.5 rulebooks are about. Forgotten Realms/Faerun though, I do not like. Probably because of being introduced via the Greyhawk stuff. I don't like the "weave" concept as a whole, and I prefer the Greyhawk pantheon. But yeah I know very little about Ebberon and it sounds cool but I've never experienced it.

I am currently running Age of Worms and so have a renewed interest in Greyhawk, a setting that always eluded me in the past. What is it you like about Greyhawk, especially compared to FR? Its my thread so I'll risk derailing it for a moment :smallbiggrin: Or feel free to PM.

AMFV

2024-04-30, 12:36 PM

Wait, what?

As far as I heard at the time and since, Kieth Baker did not work for WotC prior to the setting search (he did afterwards, of course). What makes you say otherwise? Got a link?

What I recall is that around the time of the contest there were a crapload of pervasive rumors with not really a lot of backing spread around by the magic of the early internet.

Zanos

2024-04-30, 01:27 PM

Eberonn is fine. If someone tells me that their campaign is set in Eberonn my reaction is "Okay". I'm not particularly hyped about it, but there's nothing offensively wrong with it.

Some issues I have:

There's a huge gameplay vs. story issue with dragonmarks. Despite the fact that dragonmarked individuals are incredibly favored, the abilities associated with them mechanically are pathetic and generally worse than the opportunity cost of taking an actually good feat. The fact that higher tier dragonmarks with more effective powers are effectively gated by HD via their skill requirements is a doubly whammy, as often the effects simply aren't impressive compared to a caster of equivalent level, in a setting that's supposed to account for the presence of spellcasters! The Mark of Passage, for example, one of the better ones, grants access to teleport at the exact same level that a wizard could just cast it. And yet everyone in the setting is completely obsessed with dragonmarks. Hell, one of the most powerful characters in the settings objective is to stop being an immortal lich so she can use her dragonmark that probably gives her create greater undead 1/day as an SLA. One must wonder what use a 16th level wizard has for a necromancy SLA.

In general, I dislike the idea of low-but-broad magic settings. I don't mind PCs or their opponents reliably having access to magic, but magic should be something at least somewhat fantastical that's only wielded by a small number of either gifted or erudite individuals. Walking down the street and seeing magical lights and constructs everywhere should be reserved for settlements that are magocracies.

Dragons are too powerful to form an illuminati-like conspiracy where they control all information and gank anyone that either interferes with or begins to understand the draconic prophecy. Characters have to be far too powerful for the Eberonn setting to interact with this part of it in any meaningful way without dying instantly. There's a good reason that dragons in other settings are generally depicted as being too egotistical to form alliances outside of a small number of individuals; because they take control of the entire setting, and not in a good way.

Speaking of high powered nonsense, while Eberonn claims to be a relatively lower power setting with printed NPCs only going up to the teens with few rare exceptions, you'll quickly find out that those rules do not apply if you leave Khorvaire at all and discover that it's basically the worlds backwater.
a
Agnosticism is fine in real life; in a setting where characters derive magical powers directly from their faith, I'd prefer something a little more concrete than that the power of faith somehow siphons off of one of a few nebulous sources of magical energy that either have no ability or no desire to communicate.

A lot of Eberonn's big unanswered questions are easily solved by the plethora of low level magic users sticking their noggins together and experimenting. "Do warforged have souls"? Apparently nobody has looked, because there's quite a few spells even in core that could determine whether or not they do without question.

2D8HP

2024-04-30, 01:34 PM

Sentient robots (“Warforged”) just aren’t my thing; that said though, most TSR/WotC D&D settings aren’t either, I’d prefer something closer to Anderson’s Three Harts and Three Lions

Fero

2024-04-30, 01:45 PM

I can get behind a lot of your points. For as much as I like about the setting, I feel a lot of the same sentiments. But the bolded part I'm not sure about. I remember seeing accusations fly around at some point about that, but wasn't this heavily debunked?

It was very possibly debunked. Still, even if it was debunked, it is probably fair to say that said rumor laid the foundation for a lot of negative feelings about the setting. I will add a note to my comment to make sure I don't spread disinformation. Honestly, my biggest gripe was that they made Eberron instead of Planescape :p.

Ramza00

2024-04-30, 02:25 PM

feels like a grab bag

yes I realize that is its charm , and you kind of need that for a main setting so you can have 30 different games inside of a world

Pugwampy

2024-04-30, 02:46 PM

I was ducky imprinted onto forgotton realms . Lots more Novels and computer games. Seems more fleshed out and more book supported . My original group only used Faerun .

I know almost nothing about Eberron .
I would not object to playing or DM ing that world

But i think St Cuthbert is the worst name for a deity ever.

Tzardok

2024-04-30, 02:58 PM

But i think St Cuthbert is the worst name for a deity ever.

St Cuthbert is a Greyhawk deity, not an Eberron deity. Also, according to official lore, he originally came from a different world and religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert).

***

I agree with some of the criticisms mentioned before, but my biggest peeve isn't even with Eberron itself. It may be unfair of me, and it is obviously a problem of the edition, not the setting, but to me Eberron is the poster child of 3.x's discouraging of setting crossovers. Where 2e had Spelljammer, Planescape and to a lesser extent Ravenloft as crossover settings that connected all other settings, 3.x wanted to limit such contact as much as possible. And Eberron, which was created from the beginning to be incompatible, exemplifies that for me, and I resent it a bit for that.

Ozreth

2024-04-30, 03:45 PM

I agree with some of the criticisms mentioned before, but my biggest peeve isn't even with Eberron itself. It may be unfair of me, and it is obviously a problem of the edition, not the setting, but to me Eberron is the poster child of 3.x's discouraging of setting crossovers. Where 2e had Spelljammer, Planescape and to a lesser extent Ravenloft as crossover settings that connected all other settings, 3.x wanted to limit such contact as much as possible. And Eberron, which was created from the beginning to be incompatible, exemplifies that for me, and I resent it a bit for that.

Now this is an interesting take! I almost universally see people praising Eberron for being the one setting that finally wasn't connected to everything else and stood on its own. From what I know, it was the creators desire to have it this way, not Wizards, but in any event, I like it that way.

AMFV

2024-04-30, 05:05 PM

I am currently running Age of Worms and so have a renewed interest in Greyhawk, a setting that always eluded me in the past. What is it you like about Greyhawk, especially compared to FR? Its my thread so I'll risk derailing it for a moment :smallbiggrin: Or feel free to PM.

I like that Greyhawk is relatively grounded and has like a consistent well designed political sphere. I like that it's dynamic, you've just had a big war. Which is on of the pluses that Eberron has as well. Like in FR you'd hard pressed to talk about any major changes that impacted the world that weren't walked back. Greyhawk you're coming out of the Flaness Wars and you have a post war kind of fragile peace feeling. A lot of the Gods and religions are very unique and interesting Wee Jas in particular is a really thematically cool deity. It's just a good setting that I think is going to sadly fall away.

Batcathat

2024-04-30, 05:13 PM

In general, I dislike the idea of low-but-broad magic settings. I don't mind PCs or their opponents reliably having access to magic, but magic should be something at least somewhat fantastical that's only wielded by a small number of either gifted or erudite individuals. Walking down the street and seeing magical lights and constructs everywhere should be reserved for settlements that are magocracies.

That's kind of funny, since that's the main reason I would like to try Eberron at some point (but haven't so far, so I won't be much help with the question of the thread). I prefer worlds where magic is either widely available and impacting lots of different things or worlds were it's exceedingly rare (like LotR, for example), while a lot of settings (of both D&D and fantasy in general) has it somewhere in between, where it's pretty common but still doesn't seem to actually affect the world much.

AMFV

2024-04-30, 05:25 PM

As far as what I dislike about Eberron? I don't really like the MagiTek setting, I don't really enjoy "abundant low magic". I find that a lot of the races that are wearing different hats are doing that just to be different. Dark Sun has a lot of that issue as well. I find that the guild politics is really complicated to explain to new players and they need to know about that to interact meaningfully with the setting. It's basically a lot of homework right off the bat for newer players.

Zanos

2024-04-30, 06:00 PM

That's kind of funny, since that's the main reason I would like to try Eberron at some point (but haven't so far, so I won't be much help with the question of the thread). I prefer worlds where magic is either widely available and impacting lots of different things or worlds were it's exceedingly rare (like LotR, for example), while a lot of settings (of both D&D and fantasy in general) has it somewhere in between, where it's pretty common but still doesn't seem to actually affect the world much.
As long as by impacting the world you mean that it doesn't enter the everyday lives of commoners, sure. A necromancer might terrorize a town or someone from a village might go off to fight in a war and be incinerated by a battlemages fireball, but generally the common folks experience with arcane magic is one that sows mistrust, not appreciation. Folks know magic is real but don't understand how it works or its limitations, and generally aren't going to be very friendly if they find out you can use it. While people in big cities might have picked up a bit more, it's still going to be fairly uncommon for them to interact directly with arcane spellcasters, since magic items are ludicrously expensive compared to a normal persons income, and it's not like wizards are blowing eachother up on the street. In any case when the commonfolk cross paths with magic it's a story worth telling at the bar, not just a day in the life of a farmer. The farmer doesn't heat his morning tea with magic or ride on the magic train to work or walk home at night from the magic bar on the street lit with magic lights. He might be devoured alive when a psychopathic wizard summons an army of demons to take revenge on the King that slighted him decades ago. So it does affect the setting in that regard.

I kind of count clerics outside this paradigm, at least ones of vaguely beneficial deities. Evil clerics are probably just called wizards by 90% of people because they associate using magic to harm people with "wizard" and using magic to help people with "priest."

Of course, this is all a matter of taste.

Batcathat

2024-04-30, 06:11 PM

As long as by impacting the world you mean that it doesn't enter the everyday lives of commoners, sure.

Yeah, pretty much. I guess I mostly just find it boring world-building to include something as monumental as magic and then not have it change society in very meaningful ways most of the time, instead just having it as some pseudo-medieval (or pseudo- some other time period, if you want to mix things up) setting where heroes and villains occasionally use magic. Having magic be super-rare isn't exactly exciting, but at least it sort of justifies why it doesn't affect the world much.

Fizban

2024-04-30, 06:37 PM

Short version:
Eberron looks like, and I would even say bills itself as, some sort of magitech and houses and guilds setting thanks to all the stuff it constantly plays up (and people go there expecting it to actually deliver), but fails to actually back any of that up with mechanics. The magitech rules aren't, and what rules are supplied for the houses and guilds actually ensure that no intrigue or conflict between then can affect any change, making them pointless. Instead it's nothing but a pulpy backdrop (albeit with some clever tricks) meant to excuse other types of adventures (train heists and Indiana Jones-ing etc), which relies entirely on narrative-focused DM fiat to hold everything together. There is no substance.

Longest version, see various posts and threads here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?403781-Eberron-Airship-Battles&p=18965736&viewfull=1#post18965736), here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?489273-Eberron-onomics&p=20821009&viewfull=1#post20821009), here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611516-Undead-as-Clean-Energy&p=24489919&viewfull=1#post24489919), here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24499910&postcount=62), here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612198-An-Eberron-World-Building-Tangent), and finally here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614551-Customizing-Published-Settings&p=24586943&viewfull=1#post24586943), in chronological order. Fair warning some of these are rather heated.

pabelfly

2024-04-30, 06:48 PM

Yeah, pretty much. I guess I mostly just find it boring world-building to include something as monumental as magic and then not have it change society in very meaningful ways most of the time, instead just having it as some pseudo-medieval (or pseudo- some other time period, if you want to mix things up) setting where heroes and villains occasionally use magic. Having magic be super-rare isn't exactly exciting, but at least it sort of justifies why it doesn't affect the world much.

A level zero spell cast by a first-level spellcaster is worth 5GP, an untrained hireling makes 1sp per day and a trained hireling makes 3sp per day. An untrained hireling would have to save two months of wages to get a single casting of even a level zero spell like Mending, and a trained hireling would spend over two weeks wages for the same. And this is all from the maths of goods and services in the PHB.

Just by dent of the basic economics of the DnD system, magic will be out of reach for most people except nobility and adventurers.

AMFV

2024-04-30, 06:56 PM

A level zero spell cast by a first-level spellcaster is worth 5GP, an untrained hireling makes 1sp per day and a trained hireling makes 3sp per day. An untrained hireling would have to save two months of wages to get a single casting of even a level zero spell like Mending, and a trained hireling would spend over two weeks wages for the same. And this is all from the maths of goods and services in the PHB.

Just by dent of the basic economics of the DnD system, magic will be out of reach for most people except nobility and adventurers.

And even then if we're talking like actual impact there's a question of supply and demand which is never really addressed when people are positing super high magic settings. Sure a person could cast a few spells a day, but only a few. So their impact would need to be massive. Like take fireball, you wouldn't even be able to make a half-ways decent artillery equivalent with it.

AnonJr

2024-04-30, 07:09 PM

... I love Eberron, and our group played it almost exclusively. We didn't get into planar travel, so I don't know much about the issues there that others have mentioned.

I do have a couple nits to pick.

First, Warforged have to burn a feat just to have a different style body. I loved my Warforged Duskblade I played in Eye of the Litch Queen, but if it wasn't for flaws fitting Mithril Body would have been tight.

Second, is more of an echo of an earlier comment - what you get mechanically from taking the Dragonmark feats is a little less than you'd hope for given the cost. Though, it's worth noting, that it should give you some better RP options. At least with DMs familiar with the setting.

thorr-kan

2024-04-30, 09:55 PM

I love me Eberron. It was a different take, unique to 3E, and interesting for it.

In response to the criticism of Io'lokar, consider: Eberron has a very pointed pulp aesthetic. Io'lokar is meant to invoke Shangri-La, the mystical city of knowledge and secret masters: enduringly happy, otherworldly, full of nigh-immortals.

That trope isn't everybody's cake, but it is a common pulp trope.

I don't remember where I read the interpretation. It isn't mine originally.

Endarire

2024-04-30, 10:04 PM

Eberron has been my favorite setting from WotC. I know Keith Baker made it and it won a setting contest.

My main complaint is that, for me, its claim to fame are Artificers and Warforged. The setting doesn't focus enough on these for me. That and Planar Shepherds.

Thankee!

Harrow

2024-04-30, 10:11 PM

Let me preface things by saying that I've never done a deep dive of Eberron stuff. If I'm digging into Eberron content, it's mostly for Artificer stuff, because I love that class to pieces. This likely means that there's a lot that it has going on that I missed or don't understand.

That said, I don't understand the people claiming that Eberron was supposed to be more grounded. It was my (likely under-informed) understanding that it was more intended to be a closer approximation of what a world with magic would look like (i.e. not medieval europe) with heavy inspiration from pulp adventures and action movies.

On the first count, I feel it failed. I will admit, "cyberpunk" isn't the same thing as "vaugely medieval europe", but it's also not really where I feel the mechanics would take things if they were physics instead. Warforged? Necessary for the cyberpunk thing, but magic users could already make much more powerful constructs and undead that didn't have free will, and yet more powerful outsiders could be summoned and called for things where such traits were required. The warforged were there because we needed androids questioning what makes someone a person, not for any realistic representation of how people would act in a magic-heavy environment. Things like the dragonmarks had to be added to give people more access to magic, but mechanically, it's far easier to be a 1st level wizard than gain the skill ranks for even a mid-level dragonmark, so I feel like that kind of fell apart somewhere. I dunno, I don't think you have to go full Tippyverse, but I feel like there's a lot of mundane utility for magic in D&D that gets ignored in the settings, and Eberron did little-to-nothing to address this. I couldn't tell you where I got the idea from, so maybe that wasn't even their intention in the first place.

On the second point, taking I am deeply opposed to games, both video and pen-and-paper rpgs, trying to take too much inspiration from non-interactive mediums. A movie is an one and a half to two and a half hours of things happening in front of you. Games are dozens of hours of me doing things. Stuff that works great in one medium is going to have trouble translating to another. I'm not here for a "cinematic experience", I'm here to roll dice that tell me that my wizard shouldn't have tried bluffing his way into a bandit camp because, even with disguise self, he's still rather awkward and terribad at lying.

Ozreth

2024-04-30, 11:37 PM

A movie is an one and a half to two and a half hours of things happening in front of you. Games are dozens of hours of me doing things. Stuff that works great in one medium is going to have trouble translating to another. I'm not here for a "cinematic experience", I'm here to roll dice that tell me that my wizard shouldn't have tried bluffing his way into a bandit camp because, even with disguise self, he's still rather awkward and terribad at lying.

Love this comment and it is something I was feeling but couldn't quite articulate but you nailed it.

Batcathat

2024-05-01, 04:02 AM

A level zero spell cast by a first-level spellcaster is worth 5GP, an untrained hireling makes 1sp per day and a trained hireling makes 3sp per day. An untrained hireling would have to save two months of wages to get a single casting of even a level zero spell like Mending, and a trained hireling would spend over two weeks wages for the same. And this is all from the maths of goods and services in the PHB.

Just by dent of the basic economics of the DnD system, magic will be out of reach for most people except nobility and adventurers.

Sure, I get why not every commoner is going around casting spells (though I think it would be nice to see a setting where the price of magic goes down similarly to the price of technology in the real world) but even assuming it's just for the rich, it doesn't seem to affect their world much either in most settings. There are ways to justify it (some more convincing than others), of course.

Like I said, I mostly think it's somewhat boring world-building and a wasted opportunity to include something as major as magic and then have the world mostly as it would've been without magic.

Elkad

2024-05-01, 01:15 PM

That. That right there. Artificers are stupid, and their face is stupid and their stupid Warforged are stupid.

Thanks for stating so eloquently what I was scrolling down this thread to attempt to post.

H_H_F_F

2024-05-01, 04:03 PM

So, Eberron is my favorite setting by a longshot, and the only none-homebrew setting I'd DM. It's the best. I often refer to it as "The Good SettingTM"

That being said, naturally, there are things I dislike about it. I'm going to focus on things I actively dislike, not on "not enough" stuff (there should've been more dragonmark-based items, there should've been more fleshed out royal courts, etcetera) or "not my favorite execution" stuff (Faiths of Eberron handling of Vassals and Seekers, Forge of War's handling of Thrane and military-industrial complex, etc). Just going to go for some major points that don't work for me at heart.

Argonessen

Let me start out by clarifying: unlike other posters in this thread, I'm 100% a fan of the idea that there are way larger powers at play behind the seeming surface of things. You think the Houses and the Nations are the biggest deal around? Wait 'till you hear of the Dreaming Dark, or the Daelkyr. Oh, you think that's the real story? Get ready for a million year long secret war, bro. No notes.

My issue is with making the Chamber a CIVILIZATION. If you'd have told me there are on average 100 dragons alive at any point, half of which are feral and dangerous, the other half organized together, capable of epic magic, and of destroying entire continents if they need to? Awesome. Yeah, the Chamber VS the Lords of Dust is the real story, give it to me for sure.

But you're telling me there are thousands of them? Thousands of epic level casters hanging out being worried about the prophecy all day? That breaks my immersion. They really tried to make it make sense, but it doesn't. So, my issue isn't "Khorvaire and everyone you know are specs of dust compared to REAL power", I think that mostly works. My issue is Argonessen is too big to make sense for its role in the setting.

Timeline

My brother, why the **** is Galifar a 1,000 years old? Why do you have almost an entire freaking millenium of "nothing happened, basically" in your history? Why is that necessary? The first generation and the last generation just happened to have 5 princes to run this ****. What did every other generation look like? For a thousand years, the people of Galifar were completely cool with having no continuity of their royal lines, and then went berserk for them?

The year should have been ~200, not 998.

Some Aesthetics

Disclaimer: this is completely and wholly about personal taste.
They really tried their best to make sure that it wasn't steampunk (just look at the way 3.5 draws artificers VS 5E) but it didn't always work. Also, the whole dino thing. I don't like it.

Condé

2024-05-02, 12:23 AM

I do not know many things about Eberron. The only knowledge I have about the setting IS because of me trying to cover everything for later build purpose. I am not a lore kind of guy.

But to me and with few things I know it Always felt more like. A melting-pot of cool things father than its own thing.

Someone said it in this thread and that is how I feel about this setting too. They took the most 2000 aesthetic and every tropes that were in and pushed them into some books trying as hard as they could to make it "cool".

No offense there is nothing wrong about it. It just feels... Mechanical. Artificial.

Eh eh.

atemu1234

2024-05-03, 12:43 AM

My biggest problem is that Eberron didn't slot neatly into the continuity of D&D; Athas, Faerun, Greyhawk, Krynn... they all have a long history of shared continuity and a shared cosmology - hell, Planescape and Spelljammer both were built around being able to leave one world and head to another, or have fun in between them.

Eberron, on the other hand, has its own, fairly restrictive cosmology, at least the 3.5 version does. It doesn't mesh well with the grander cosmology, and a lot of the elements it introduces don't play nice with the other settings if you tried to introduce them.

Now, the things I like about it are fairly easy to state: Artificer, Changelings and Warforged. Artificers are a versatile addition to any party, and the races that Eberron added are, in my opinion, just plain cool. Shifters are fifty/fifty for me, though.

GeoffWatson

2024-05-03, 01:05 AM

TaiLiu

2024-05-03, 02:31 AM

I think there's some misinformation being spread about Eberron in this thread. I want to correct some of it. My goal isn't to convince you to like Eberron or anything, and I also don't wanna derail the thread.

"Eberron is a magitech setting."

No, Eberron is kinda the opposite of a magitech setting. Eberron is a world where advances in technology don't happen, and advances in arcane magic do. Instead of the telegraph, there are speaking stones. Instead of trains, there's the lightning rail. Instead of guns and artillery, Eberron has wands and siege staves.

Eberron will fall short if looked through the lens of magitech, because it doesn't combine magic and technology at all.

"Warforged are magic robots."

No, Warforged are distinct enough from robots that I don't think "magic robot" works even to a first approximation.

Unlike contemporary or scifi robots, Warforged aren't machines, aren't programmable, aren't designed, and aren't primarily composed of metals.

Warforged are created using Creation Forges, but House Cannith has no idea how they work and very limited control over the output. When they come out of the forge, they come out as conscious and distinct creatures. In the same way humanoids have fingerprints, Warforged have ghulra. They were sold as soldiers, but they aren't programmed to fight. They have to learn, same as any humanoid. They have souls. They're mostly made of livewood, so they're vaguely like human-shaped treants except for everything else about them.

But it's understandable why people use robots as an analogy, since Warforged are pretty weird. They're the results of magical industralization—and the result of poorly-understood Giantish research from a long-ago era and a far-away place. I'm not sure there's a good analogy for them.

"Keith Baker won the WOTC setting contest due to an insider advantage."

Others have rightly mentioned that there's no evidence for this. A Manifest Zone podcast episode, Fifteen Years of Eberron (https://manifest.zone/fifteen-years-of-eberron/), discusses this a little.

According to Chris Perkins, Bill Slavicsek, and James Wyatt, most of the settings submitted to the WOTC setting contest were uninspired and often shaped by popular media at the time. At first they thought Eberron was kinda silly, what with the wide magic replacing technology, but then they got into it. Eventually they honed in on Eberron as the future setting for D&D.

After Eberron was chosen, Keith met with the lead designers. After some discussion, Keith and the leads learned that Keith's sister used to play D&D with one of the designers. Maybe that's the kernel of truth that sprouted this rumor.

Prime32

2024-05-03, 06:21 AM

There's a huge gameplay vs. story issue with dragonmarks. Despite the fact that dragonmarked individuals are incredibly favored, the abilities associated with them mechanically are pathetic and generally worse than the opportunity cost of taking an actually good feat. The fact that higher tier dragonmarks with more effective powers are effectively gated by HD via their skill requirements is a doubly whammy, as often the effects simply aren't impressive compared to a caster of equivalent level, in a setting that's supposed to account for the presence of spellcasters! The Mark of Passage, for example, one of the better ones, grants access to teleport at the exact same level that a wizard could just cast it. And yet everyone in the setting is completely obsessed with dragonmarks.
Agreed that they can be kind of underwhelming. But there are also a bunch of magic items which enhance or are fuelled by dragonmarks (and some spells which are more effective when used by a character with a specific mark). E.g.

Bag of Bounty (10,000gp; Mark of Hospitality): You can use create food and water faster and more times per day, and can create any kind of food you could make with Profession (cook).
Collar of the Wild Bond (5,000gp; Mark of Handling): You can use your dominate animal power on the wearer of the collar at will and from Medium range.
Dragonmark RodMoE (30,000gp~60,000gp depending on Mark): 3/day produce any least power associated with your mark, even one you do not possess (does not count against your mark's daily uses). You can also use any lesser power 2/day and any greater power 1/day, provided the grade of your own mark is high enough.
Gloves of the LocksmithS:CoT (10,000gp; Mark of Warding): 3/day create an upgraded arcane lock tied to 1-3 keys; the holders of the keys can bypass the lock, and receive mental alerts whenever it's opened by any means.
Helm of the Sentinel (20,000gp; Mark of Sentinel): Contingency 1/day but limited to the powers of your mark.
Houseward (25,000gp; Mark of Warding): Multiplies the duration of some mark powers by x24.
Inquisitive Goggles (16,000gp; Mark of Finding): Locate creature can also learn the target's movements in the last 24 hours. Can use Search on an object to learn about the last creature to touch it, also granting a bonus on tracking them and potentially letting you target them with locate creature.
Keycharm (150gp; Mark of Warding): When you use one of your mark powers you can tie it to the charm; whoever is holding the charm counts as the caster of the spell, allowing them to receive its mental alerts, pass through wards, etc.
Prospector's Rod (7,400gp; Mark of Finding): Various upgrades to locate object, including tripling its range and extending its duration as long as you concentrate.
Speaking Stone (10,000gp; Mark of Scribing): When using whispering wind to contact another speaking stone, the message travels at increased speed and has no maximum range.
Wheel of Wind and Water (8,000gp; Mark of Storm): Creates ideal sailing conditions around a ship, allowing it to travel more quickly; allows automatic control of elemental vessels.

Keith Baker mentioned somewhere the existence of cheaper items which aren't useful to adventurers, like blenders powered by the Mark of Hospitality.

Also note that the DC of Disguise checks increases by +10 if your disguise needs to incorporate a dragonmark, which is useful when you have politics and changelings running around.

Hell, one of the most powerful characters in the settings objective is to stop being an immortal lich so she can use her dragonmark that probably gives her create greater undead 1/day as an SLA. One must wonder what use a 16th level wizard has for a necromancy SLA.
Vol has what later material would call a "Transcendant Mark" - her half-dragon status uniquely amplifying her mark's connection to the Prophecy in order to boost its power far beyond even Siberys status.

A lot of Eberonn's big unanswered questions are easily solved by the plethora of low level magic users sticking their noggins together and experimenting. "Do warforged have souls"? Apparently nobody has looked, because there's quite a few spells even in core that could determine whether or not they do without question.
They've looked, but the way those effects work on warforged is confusing and contradictory. Warforged can't become undead (neither naturally nor as a result of necromancy spells), and they apparently do not travel to the afterlife while dead. There's an in-universe argument that warforged have a "pseudo-soul" which exists only as an effect of their bodily functions and is destroyed on death. Some warforged instead argue that they have a different afterlife from other creatures, e.g. becoming one with a mysterious god of constructs (think The Well of All Sparks from Transformers); supremacists like the Lord of Blades claim that this makes the warforged a favoured people since who wants to go to Dolurrh when they die anyway, while some fringe theologians believe that this warforged "Becoming God" may be the Silver Flame.

Elkad

2024-05-03, 07:17 AM

TaiLiu

2024-05-03, 11:49 AM

That's the exact definition of magitech. Common man takes the subway to work, and sends messages with a telegraph, without really knowing how either of them work.

If one subway is powered by a gate to the plane of pure vacuum at the front of the train sucking it down the tracks, and the other by tiny fusion reactor, it doesn't matter at all. He gets on, he reads the paper, he gets off at work.
My understanding is that magitech combines magic and technology. Eberron just replaces the latter. Maybe I’m wrong. But if I am, then I don’t understand the complaints about Eberron failing to reach magitech ideals.

Magic industry differs from technological industry in a pretty important way. Imagine that the trains only run when a special member of the Mafia is driving it. That’s the case with the Lightning Rail. It performs a similar function to trains in our world, but the requirements for running it are different. Which has consequences for how the world of Eberron operates.

Metastachydium

2024-05-03, 01:58 PM

"Warforged are magic robots."

No, Warforged are distinct enough from robots that I don't think "magic robot" works even to a first approximation.

Unlike contemporary or scifi robots, Warforged aren't machines, aren't programmable, aren't designed, and aren't primarily composed of metals.

They aren't robots as such, no, but they are artificial beings that look like robots (do I hate their visuals (but then, Eberron art never really worked for me)!), and mostly exist to explore the whole trite old "what if our androids are really people" sci-fi trope (which they don't make a particularly interesting work of for me).

They're mostly made of livewood, so they're vaguely like human-shaped treants

AND YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW!!

H_H_F_F

2024-05-03, 04:57 PM

Bohandas

2024-05-03, 05:16 PM

IIRC Some of the numerology doesn't work out as cleanly as it could. Like most of the various mystically significant things where there used to be 13 and now there's just 12 seem to have changed at unrelated times for unfelated reasons

Fizban

2024-05-04, 03:32 AM

My understanding is that magitech combines magic and technology. Eberron just replaces the latter. Maybe I’m wrong. But if I am, then I don’t understand the complaints about Eberron failing to reach magitech ideals.
I would define magitech as technology powered by magic, which may or may not include aspects of mundane scientific technology. Technomancy would for combinations only. A magitech system is one where the magical technology functions based on a system of rules, which the players can use, the same as they would any other game mechanic.

As for my complaint, well I provided links rather than bury the thread in six past threads worth of detail. But again, Eberron does not have magitech rules. It has a bunch of specific magic items, and a bunch of people members of specific families with feats that give them 1/day SLAs.

The airships that are supposedly made by teams of artificers are not: they still use normal rules, being made by one high level caster at 1 day per 1,000gp.
The magic items fail to replace the technology as suggested: their "telegraphs" don't move at the speed of light, they move at 60mph. Which is nice for medieval speeds but this is a world with 30mph trains and 20mph airships, things that are contemporary with actual speed of light telegraphs.
Their magic trains run on 100% fiat railways because the conductor stones have no price. I guess we simply assume the price for maglev train rocks is however low it needs to be.
The spells given by these dragonmarks are still tied to character level so those of sufficient power to mean something are still absurdly rare. Even the base marks being at much higher numbers than spellcasters, I'm pretty sure still don't number nearly enough to affect significant change, if the spells even mattered.
Meanwhile they can be duplicated by absurdly simple magic items, making their main feature an arbitrary discount on bigger magic items by making them require the feats. I don't even have to specify custom items either, because they make that whole point of "everything has a place in Eberron," and there's a published item that can do the job.

You say "technology" of Eberron advances through magic, but it doesn't. Not until you first establish a rule that the books made no mention of, essentially banning all new magic items (presumably also spells) without big expensive long-term possibly group research projects. Only then can you say that all the digging for ancient secrets and research advancement actually matter. Because without such a rule, I can have my character immediately invent a bunch of custom items that do everything better, without any need for dragonmarks- they require DM approval of course, but I'm generally following the formulas and unless the DM then predicates that approval upon spending a bunch of time researching them thus creating the rule that I just pointed out the setting lacks. . . yeah.

Because 3.x already has a magitech system. The item creation guidelines that many people like to treat as hard no-DM rules, are a magitech system, which can then be broken if you treat it as hard rules, just like every other published magitech system. The DMG knows this, and so requires the DM approve any new items, which is the only way you can actually have an open-ended magitech system without breaking it. The whole point of scientific/technological/whatever advancement is to figure out the rules of reality and use them to "break" the game. Steel was bad enough, steam power was bad enough, drilling for oil, electricity, we're how many busted exploits into reality by now?

Eberron is not magitech. It has a bunch of non-formula items that work because the DM said so, but only for certain characters because the DM said so, which have achieved a certain level of saturation in the setting because the DM said so.

Magic industry differs from technological industry in a pretty important way. Imagine that the trains only run when a special member of the Mafia is driving it. That’s the case with the Lightning Rail. It performs a similar function to trains in our world, but the requirements for running it are different. Which has consequences for how the world of Eberron operates.
Indeed, and the main change in operation is that none of it matters. You can't steal an airship because they can literally only be (reliably) piloted by members of the Official House, specifically born with and taking the Special Feat? Wow, so cool. Everything being tied to hereditary 'marks', which explicitly become corrupted if the bloodlines mix, means that the very mechanics of the setting ensure it remains in stasis. The Houses not only have no mechanical way to interact as organizations, they would gain nothing from actually opposing each other. Not only is it not magitech, it's specifically designed so that the backdrop cannot change. Sure there can be wars between the nations, and the PCs can go on pulpy adventures, but that's it.

I find this profoundly off-putting and dull, moreso the more I think about it. So, the "technology" of this world is tied to a series of inviolate hereditary bloodlines which are as such essentially unassailable? You're just supposed to accept that and indeed treat it as a boon, because now you don't have to think about how the tech works or where it comes from? We already had a tech system, and a perfectly functional excuse for why it wasn't widespread (there are a finite number of casters that don't feel like spending their entire lives crafting things to fix peasant problems), which, again, Eberron doesn't even get itself out of.

I don't actually want to do a game set during a magical industrial revolution, but that doesn't mean I want a setting that pretends it already happened while also being completely fiat and specifically tying it to bloodlines. I'm absolutely sick of "bloodline" sorcerer nonsense, why would I want a setting that has embraced it as the driver of all technology? That world sucks.

I've heard it suggested that a more interesting conflict would be these upstart Artificers vs the House monopolies, as the Artificers realize they don't actually have to deal with any of that House stuff (because they don't, 3.x magic items don't care about any of it) and start banding together into their own guild, and yeah that would be way more interesting. Except of course that's not what Eberron is supposed to be about- it's supposed to be about pulpy adventures with train heists and imperialistic jungle expeditions and oh spooky Mournland horror and maybe you'll help start/avert a new war etc. People are always mentioning all sorts of stuff from the setting that sounds cool, though I've not run into it, but I'm always just stuck on the entire basic premise of their quasi-post-WW. . I? I think it's supposed to be WWI-ish setting that replaces early industrial tech with 'magic' that neither respects the game's magic rules nor actually even gets the job done. Running an Artificer's Guild uprising in Eberron wouldn't be any better, it's still just a magical-industrial revolution game, except with a bunch of designated antagonists?

Well I suppose that does give you a ready institution for the PCs to oppose, rather than coming up with some nebulous "uh you're trying to make the world better so badguys attack."

And yes, I'm aware that most of the Dragonmarked Houses don't actually involve major technological infrastructure. Which makes them even less relevant.

Scots Dragon

2024-05-04, 05:03 AM

Troacctid

2024-05-04, 01:09 PM

There are a few reasons the setting doesn’t gel for me. One of the big ones is that it’s a little too static: the novels, sourcebooks, etc. can never change or advance the world in any real meaningful way. It doesn’t feel like a living setting with more beyond the frame in the same way that other campaign settings do.
The novels and published adventures can. Lhesh Haruuc dies and sets off a succession crisis for Darguun in one of them, for example.

I think fixing the timeline in the year 998 is one of the best things that Eberron does. It allows all the lore to expand as much as it needs to without ever damaging cross-compatibility. In the Forgotten Realms, one of the problems you run into is that every time they advance the timeline, you lose the ability to use older material without adapting it to the new present day. Like, in my 5e campaign, I can't just pull out Mysteries of the Moonsea when my players go to visit Mulmaster, because the city is different now than it was then. Eberron doesn't have that issue.

It's not that Khorvaire can't advance. It's that it's presented to you balanced on a knife's edge, and it's up to the DM to decide when, how, and why it falls.

The flip side of this is my personal biggest complaint about the setting, which is that the depth of lore can make onboarding difficult for players who are new to Eberron. There's just a lot of stuff in the canon.

Elkad

2024-05-04, 11:07 PM

Magic industry differs from technological industry in a pretty important way. Imagine that the trains only run when a special member of the Mafia is driving it. That’s the case with the Lightning Rail. It performs a similar function to trains in our world, but the requirements for running it are different. Which has consequences for how the world of Eberron operates.

If you are the guy taking the train to work, it doesn't make any difference how it works. It's a train.

You buy a ticket and get on, ride down the rails, and get off at your stop.

That's the definition of magitech. Take a mundane thing, make it work by magic, but if you don't care how it works, you can't tell the difference, because the function didn't change.

Zevox

2024-05-05, 12:28 AM

I don't honestly know a lot about Eberron; I've never owned any of its books or look at any detailed accounts of its world and lore. I know I've heard things about it doing unusual things with certain races, but couldn't tell you what they are off the top of my head.

I can tell you why I've never given it the time of day though: the magitech element. I do not want that in my D&D, I want the game at a medieval-feeling tech level. I don't care whether your trains run on coal or magic, I don't want them in my D&D settings; same with robots, etc. Just hearing about the Warforged and other such elements immediately made me decide against giving the setting any more detailed look back when it first came out, and that's unlikely to ever change.

glass

2024-05-05, 03:06 AM

Eberron, on the other hand, has its own, fairly restrictive cosmology, at least the 3.5 version does. It doesn't mesh well with the grander cosmology, and a lot of the elements it introduces don't play nice with the other settings if you tried to introduce them.Depends on how grand your "grander cosmology" is. If you use the idea from the 3e Manual of the Planes that different cosmologies can exist side by side, it works fine!

That's the definition of magitech.It is, apparently, a definition of "magitech". It's not one I am familiar with (mine was more in line with TaiLu's), and I think it elides important differences between different concepts.

I can tell you why I've never given it the time of day though: the magitech element. I do not want that in my D&D, I want the game at a medieval-feeling tech level. I don't care whether your trains run on coal or magic, I don't want them in my D&D settings; same with robots, etc. Just hearing about the Warforged and other such elements immediately made me decide against giving the setting any more detailed look back when it first came out, and that's unlikely to ever change.Trains I will give you; it doesn't look like Eberron is for you. But it does not have robots!

Warforged have more in common with golems than sci-fi robots. Do golems also spoil your "medieval-feeling tech level"?

Metastachydium

2024-05-05, 09:04 AM

Come on, Meta. You can't tell me landforged walker does nothing for you, can you?

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Okay, you got me. But that's just because of the friendly little planties doing friendly little planty things vouching for them and any Warforged without Ironwood Body may just roll over and die!

Warforged have more in common with golems than sci-fi robots. Do golems also spoil your "medieval-feeling tech level"?

Golems are (more or less) crude statues built of dead matter, given a semblance of life by magic and bound to the will of a master so that they can perform simple tasks, often fighting. They are powerful and dangerous tools, but ultimately little more than high-end magic items. I am staunchly opposed to depicting them as looking like robots (though even at their worst, they look less like those than your average Warforged) or Frankenstein's monster, but even when they visually resemble such things, they are simply nothing like them.

Warforged have none of the properties that make Golems Golems, barring how they are also Constructs, nor do they have the very specifically magical properties commonly associated with Golems in and out of the game (most notably the resistence to magic, but also the built-in means of outside control &c.). Once more, they are these robotic looking things that basically try to explore the same thing Frankenstein's monster was conceived for, except in a far less interesting or nuanced way (even compared to the usual sci-fi "Androids are people too" afterglows of the idea).

Psyren

2024-05-05, 09:55 AM

I don't hate Eberron - but if I had a list of things that hold it back from being my favorite setting they would be these:

The Gods/Churches Dynamic: I prefer D&D gods to be active players in the world, even if they can't always act directly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html); there is so much delicious storytelling potential in that. You could never get stories like OotS or Baldur's Gate 3 out of a setting like Eberron - neither the BG3 main plot, which is driven directly by internecine divine politics, nor even smaller character-driven stories like Gale's borderline exploitation by Mystra and literally everything to do with Shadowheart's past. Eberron gods just seem paper-thin to me in comparison to that; this isn't to say I think that Eberron's approach to divinity is bad or wrong, it's just not what I happen to think D&D stories do best.

The Not-Afterlife: Related to the above, Everybody Goes to Dolurrh when they die just feels immensely boring to me. The vast majority of people having capital-N-Nothing to look forward to, again, feels like the setting chose to leave a lot of great story hooks on the table. Even if it's not everyone in a given setting, just the knowledge by some (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) that the afterlife has its own elaborate system of rewards and punishments to seek out or evade is a powerful character motivation and full of hooks.

Eberron Sucks Up the Oxygen: This isn't really Eberron's fault, but ever since it was created, it's always seems to be the next-highest setting to get attention from the designers, while so many other interesting D&D settings seem to have taken a backseat and left to languish on the vine. It took us over two decades to revisit both Planescape and Krynn, and it's now been over a decade since Dark Sun, but Eberron has managed to stay in print far more frequently. I don't know what the root cause of that is - maybe WotC's rights to/ownership of Eberron is a lot less ambiguous than some of those other settings - all I can really do is speculate why Eberron is seemingly always right behind FR on the update list while all the others seem to take eons. (And hell, we have yet to get an update for Greyhawk, though I suppose a big part of that is that it isn't all that different from FR at the end of the day.)

It's Less Unique Now: Back when Eberron was created, a pulpy magepunk/steampunk-ish D&D setting was truly novel, and gave us all a welcome break from the quasi-medieval Faerun/Greyhawk/Mystara/Barovia milieu. (Robots! Lasers! Factories! Trains!) But now, thanks to MTG settings having been brought into D&D, Eberron's primary selling point seems to be diluted. Now, if I want a magepunk setting I can run Ravnica or Dominaria or Neo-Kamigawa etc. And even their big selling point, the Artificer class, is something I can plop into Lantan or Lamordia or Mount Nevermind in a more familiar setting if a player wants to be one of those.

Again, I bear no ill-will towards Eberron but given the choice, I would just take the elements of it that I like (like artificers and a PC construct race) and run them elsewhere.

glass

2024-05-05, 10:51 AM

Warforged have none of the properties that make Golems Golems, barring how they are also ConstructsEven if that were true, that would be a pretty big "barring that" (huge, in fact). And anyway, the main thing they have in common with golems is that they look pretty similar (albeit usually smaller and sometimes less monolithic in materials).

Also, yeah, they are sapient which most (but by no means all) golems are not. But since fictional robots vary dramatically in the levels of sapience also, I am not sure what that has do do with the price of fish (and real robots are completely non-sapient, like golems).

nor do they have the very specifically magical properties commonly associated with Golems in and out of the game (most notably the resistence to magic, but also the built-in means of outside control &c.).You get that golems were an example, right? Substitute a different kind of humanoid-shaped construct if you prefer. D&D has plenty. Anyway, given that I was responding to Zevox's complaint about Eberron having robots - their not being or looking technological is an appropriate rebuttal to that, and nit picking about how they are different from golems is irrelevant.

Once more, they are these robotic looking thingsRobots usually look overtly technological, or look just like humans but with funky skill colour. Warforged look, as noted, like smaller golems.

De gustibus non est disuptandum. You're allowed to not like warforged; you don't need to (and shouldn't) make up reason to dislike them. Especially when your stated reasons are hogwash.

RedMage125

2024-05-05, 01:04 PM

I genuinely love Eberron. It's one of the only pre-published settings I've ever wanted to run a game in, and one I'm just *dying* to have a chance to be a player in. I've got every 3.5e Everron product in print, I have the 4e books, the 5e book, and both of Keith Baker's 5e Eberron books from DM's Guild. I know a lot about the lore.

I guess one drawback of Eberron, however, is that I feel like a lot of the material doesn't port over well to other settings. I don't allow Eberron races, dragonmarks, artificers, and so on in my home setting. My home campaign setting more closely resembles "classic" settings, like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Namely, because I prefer to more or less meet player expectations when I have new players of what they expect a game world to be like with deities, classes, expected text level, and so on. Much like how I insist all players be presented with all house rules up front, anything that deviates from expectations from the books should be presented up front. So when I run Eberron, I've made a short "primer" for players unfamiliar with the setting.

That said, there's been some assertions in this thread about Eberron which aren't quite right.

The perceived lack of mechanical significance to dragonmarks, for example. By the DMG, when making a magic item, limiting who can use an item drastically reduces its cost. So items that can only be used by those possessing a specific dragonmark makes them easier to make. Second, and this is a suggestion by Keith Baker, so more "kanon" than canon, but a lot of magic items from the DMG even are intended to be changed to requiring a dragonmark. Cloak of Elvenkind, for example.

Eberron also focuses on the idea that PCs are special and unique. An NPC wizard who instructs at Arcanix, for example, may be a level 6 wizard. But she doesn't have the facility to cast spells the same way a PC does. It may take her several minutes or an hour to cast her 3rd level spells. The wandslingers used as arcane artillery in the last war REQUIRE a wand of some sort to cast spells, and cannot do so with their hands. A magewright may be able to cast a few spells, but they're limited by the specialization of their profession, and they usually require reagents that a PC caster does not. Fortunately, these reagents are somewhat affordable, so even commoners in Sharn are more likely to go to a magewright to repair a broken cookpot than a blacksmith. So the idea that NPCs have full access to the exact kind of spellcasting that PCs do is not part of the setting.

Dragonmarks being a part of that "everyday magic" is how the setting achieves its "wide magic". And yes, the SLAs come online around the same level as the spells do for PCs, but they're not class restricted. An Orien heir doesn't have to be a wizard to get Teleport from his mark. There's even a Prestige Class in the book Dragonmarked that allows them to eventually do a lot of minor teleporting all over the place.

And one more thing...

Vol has what later material would call a "Transcendant Mark" - her half-dragon status uniquely amplifying her mark's connection to the Prophecy in order to boost its power far beyond even Siberys status.

Minor note, the later material called Erandis' mark an "Apex Mark", not "Transcendent".

Metastachydium

2024-05-05, 01:09 PM

Even if that were true, that would be a pretty big "barring that" (huge, in fact).

To use some extreme examples, an animated suit of armour is a fantasy staple; a robot with chainsaw hands shooting lasers isn't. Both would be Constructs if statted as D&D monsters, but how that would make them very similar or equally fitting in any given setting escapes me.

And anyway, the main thing they have in common with golems is that they look pretty similar (albeit usually smaller and sometimes less monolithic in materials).

No, they don't. Golems (unless portrayed having very robotic features for no good reason at all, which as said, I'm not terribly fond of) are more like statues; Warforged have nuts and bolts and plates and mechanical joints, ending up looking much more like a machine than a(n ideally) somewhat crude work of art.

Also, yeah, they are sapient which most (but by no means all) golems are not. But since fictional robots vary dramatically in the levels of sapience also, I am not sure what that has do do with the price of fish (and real robots are completely non-sapient, like golems).

Do note how I didn't even bring that up, even though it is rather important that Golems are traditionally itemlike tools rather than creatures. At best, slaves, at worst just motile objects.

You get that golems were an example, right?

No, I didn't get that from your one-sentence throwaway line. "Androids in my fantasy is perfectly normal because Golems" pops up a lot, so I assumed it's that again.

Substitute a different kind of humanoid-shaped construct if you prefer. D&D has plenty.

And I don't like the more robotic/clockwork/tracked vehicle looking ones any more than I like Warforged; most of them are merely not a big part of the setting, just another statblock in some splat.

Anyway, given that I was responding to Zevox's complaint about Eberron having robots - their not being or looking technological is an appropriate rebuttal to that, and nit picking about how they are different from golems is irrelevant.

Robots usually look overtly technological, or look just like humans but with funky skill colour. Warforged look, as noted, like smaller golems.

1. I don't know where you saw art of Warforged that don't look technological or robotic; or Warforged that aren't mass-produced in big forges, but certainly not the same Eberron I'm aware of;
2.a. Golems are usually rather large, but that's not a terribly important part of what defines them, and at any rate, D&D has Medium Golems even in Core that are smaller than standard Warforged; at the same time, Warforged Chargers exist and are bigger than many Large Golems; and
2.b. far more importantly, as noted, Warforged do look overtly technological, and no matter how many times you repeat it without further elaboration, "they look like Golems" will not suddenly become true.

[I]
De gustibus non est disuptandem.

Disputandum, but otherwise certainly.

You're allowed to not like warforged; you don't need to (and shouldn't) make up reason to dislike them. Especially when your stated reasons are hogwash.

I explained why I'm saying what I'm saying. Repeatedly. Until such time as you can come up with a better rebuttal than "they look like Golems which we aren't talking about so you're wrong", leave me be with this "hogwash" thing.

Fizban

2024-05-05, 06:35 PM

I've mentioned some clever tricks Eberron does that I like, and some have mentioned fixes that would solve their problems, so in that vein:

Dragonmarks turning the onus on widespread magic from member of specific classes to feats, is a perfect solution, it just doesn't go far enough. Ideally one would figure out how many people were in X profession historically and use that to determine how many people you must declare are born with X mark, but it's really much easier to just say that in this world anyone can learn a bit of magic with a feat. The feats can be static spell choices/lines or completely freeform, but if you just make magic properly ubiquitous, you can skip straight to the ramifications of the spells allowed by assuming they are sufficiently ubiquitous. And because low level spells for low level feats will never eclipse members of actual spellcasting classes, it doesn't even mess with game balance that much, assuming your spells were already balanced.

The Artificer not being added to standard city generation (that I'm aware of), means it's actually mechanically represented as a new, not-widespread class. A true advancement in the field. And it brings with it a paradigm shifting ability to craft items two levels lower than normal. While it's unreliable and no less expensive, once the class is sufficiently widespread, that does represent an advancement in the availability of magic items. Places that could have afforded (because taxes are taxes) certain things but lacked anyone high enough level to craft them, may thanks to the Artificer may now be able to craft them. The only thing that stops permanent wondrous items from being crafted literally everywhere is that Artificers still have to wait for 3rd level to get Craft Wondrous. Depending on their level generation die, there can still be plenty of hamlets that do have a proper crafter- and anywhere that does, well that 3rd level crafter counts as +2 higher so they can craft with 3rd level spells. That's Plant Growth, Fireball, Suggestion, Animate Dead, Speak With Dead, Magic Circle, Locate Object, Stone Shape, in addition to stuff from last level like Make Whole, Gust of Wind, Detect Thoughts, Zone of Truth, and that's not even considering splatbooks with spells actually designed for setting Significance.

Instead of being tied to individuals that spend their lives learning a trade and eventually die and need to be replaced, which a place may or may not have had, for a few thousand gold (maybe the price of a house) you can make a magic item that will do that job forever. Plenty of these items should already be in use in the world, but once Artificers are widespread, the level of spells that ought to be widely available is directly increased. That increase in availability will cause in increase in interest (and ease of replacement), which might remove one of the reasons for lack of proliferation.

Prime32

2024-05-05, 07:46 PM

Warforged have more in common with golems than sci-fi robots. Do golems also spoil your "medieval-feeling tech level"?
Golems are (more or less) crude statues built of dead matter, given a semblance of life by magic and bound to the will of a master so that they can perform simple tasks, often fighting. They are powerful and dangerous tools, but ultimately little more than high-end magic items. I am staunchly opposed to depicting them as looking like robots (though even at their worst, they look less like those than your average Warforged) or Frankenstein's monster, but even when they visually resemble such things, they are simply nothing like them.

Warforged have none of the properties that make Golems Golems, barring how they are also Constructs, nor do they have the very specifically magical properties commonly associated with Golems in and out of the game (most notably the resistence to magic, but also the built-in means of outside control &c.). Once more, they are these robotic looking things that basically try to explore the same thing Frankenstein's monster was conceived for, except in a far less interesting or nuanced way (even compared to the usual sci-fi "Androids are people too" afterglows of the idea).
When a warforged is brought to life, it manifests a rune called a ghulra on its forehead for reasons that House Cannith don't understand. The name was coined by dwarf magewrights involved in the project, being a Dwarven word for "truth".

This is a direct reference to the Golem of Prague, which was brought to life by carving emet (Hebrew for "truth") into its forehead and is typically depicted with metal plates bolted to its body.

Rebel7284

2024-05-05, 11:19 PM

Action points and, to a lesser extend, dragonmarks being incompatible with other settings annoys me. I don't know enough about the story elements to comment on those.

MonochromeTiger

2024-05-06, 12:52 AM

Like others have said repeatedly, I don't hate the setting but there's some points that annoy or disappoint me.

The Dragonmarks do kind of feel like they desperately wanted a way to make magic use outside magic classes valid but couldn't be bothered to go all the way and just make it so everyone has some magic. It ends up just being a different kind of exclusive club except worse than the already existing exclusive clubs for being so limited, the only real upsides end up being the ways of making magic items cheaper but that in itself feels weird since it's now somehow less effort and cost to make the magical equivalent of a security lockout.

Outside Khorvaire, as many others have said, the entire supposed feeling of Eberron being the "low power" setting is thrown out the window in favor of a nebulous "yeah, these people are just flat out better than Player-Character-Land." Which isn't to say that having higher powered continents or countries is a bad thing but the way it's done Khorvaire just ends up not mattering except as somewhere that people occasionally wander into from the places that actually matter. Important mystery? Turns out it's part of the Draconic Prophecy(TM) and Argonessen will send people shortly to grab whatever it was, sweep it under the rug, and kill any witnesses as appropriate. Important person? Oh don't worry they're just passing through from somewhere else, go back to playing with your toys while the big kids handle world spanning conspiracies and apocalyptic dangers.

Dolurrh and deities are a complicated point of annoyance. I'm fine with a setting having hand off Gods, in some cases I welcome it because I personally enjoy when in universe issues of morality and cosmology aren't answered with "well there's literally a Goddess saying what's good and evil" or "yeah so my God says this is how the afterlife works." What I take issue with is that Eberron yet again goes for a weird middleground there that tries to appeal to both extremes a bit without really taking a definitive side and thus falls short of appeasing either. Dolurrh itself is a more clear point of annoyance, it's the standard afterlife of the setting and it's just a place where everyone's so miserable and apathetic that they gradually fade away. It's like people saw the Wall of the Faithless and thought "hey, people hate that, maybe they'll like it if everyone is arbitrarily punished instead of just the people who don't want to be extorted into worshiping a God" except the Wall of the Faithless eventually got dropped; Dolurrh just stuck around making it so I have to question why more people aren't signing up to become Vampires or Liches just to avoid Dolurrh.

"Technology" really just being magic with some metal bits stuck to it is deeply disappointing. It's just "a Wizard did it" with a very thin veneer of somebody putting some scientific thought into it or dressing it up in metal and a few bolts or rivets. Plenty of other games and settings pull of magitech as a blend of magic and technology, they both appear separately but they also have synergy that allows them to accomplish more together than either do apart, Eberron doesn't pull that off it just has people depend on Wizards to run everything instead of relying on Wizards to be the setting's super-cop like Forgotten Realms.

Worst of all, the community reactions. Rarely have I seen as much of a weirdly venomous hatred for something in D&D like I have for Warforged or Artificers and it truly is hatred. There's a contingent of people who seem to see the presence of anything that dares to look mechanical as an affront to their fantasy game and a setting that dresses itself up in that aesthetic intentionally as an unforgivable sin forbidden by medieval-stasis scripture, never mind the fact that D&D has done all it can to work around the word "robot" and D&D's "medieval stasis" was an anachronistic mess even before Eberron showed up. It reaches the point that I can't really bring up Eberron without a few people needing to immediately make it known how much they despise the setting and start drawing up battle lines.

Weirdly nothing similar seems to get as strong of a reaction. Pathfinder's setting of Golarion just gets accepted despite it having aliens, robots, grey goo, and ray guns as well as normal guns. The Magic the Gathering settings that got thrown in have tech and magic that works similarly and in some cases to an even further extent than Eberron but people just shrug that off as "one of those card game settings" where either you're a MtG fan and love it unconditionally or you aren't and just don't care, but by extent you also don't care enough to hate it. So somehow all the hate I see gets centered on Eberron and its additions, either it's fine and people don't get the complaints or it's the worst thing ever and their day is ruined for even seeing the words Warforged or Artificer.

Metastachydium

2024-05-06, 05:55 AM

When a warforged is brought to life, it manifests a rune called a ghulra on its forehead for reasons that House Cannith don't understand. The name was coined by dwarf magewrights involved in the project, being a Dwarven word for "truth".

This is a direct reference to the Golem of Prague, which was brought to life by carving emet (Hebrew for "truth") into its forehead and is typically depicted with metal plates bolted to its body.

That is a funny Easter Egg I completely forgot about (even though someone mentioned it upthread (go me!)), but little more than that. A little cosmetic reference from around which both the baseline visuals (I had to actually check what metal plates you're talking about; the only variants with those I could find all derive from the model used in an 1951 movie, and even then, they are just there as after-the-fact shoddy fixes for some cracks on the main body, which is otherwise the actually typical roughg-hewn stone statue) and its original significance (its function and meaning (there is a very good rreason why Golems are literally always soulless)) have been casually stripped off, to make room for more plates and bolts and "built-in weaponry" and whatever eles you want.

atemu1234

2024-05-06, 06:54 AM

Worst of all, the community reactions. Rarely have I seen as much of a weirdly venomous hatred for something in D&D like I have for Warforged or Artificers and it truly is hatred. There's a contingent of people who seem to see the presence of anything that dares to look mechanical as an affront to their fantasy game and a setting that dresses itself up in that aesthetic intentionally as an unforgivable sin forbidden by medieval-stasis scripture, never mind the fact that D&D has done all it can to work around the word "robot" and D&D's "medieval stasis" was an anachronistic mess even before Eberron showed up. It reaches the point that I can't really bring up Eberron without a few people needing to immediately make it known how much they despise the setting and start drawing up battle lines.

Weirdly nothing similar seems to get as strong of a reaction. Pathfinder's setting of Golarion just gets accepted despite it having aliens, robots, grey goo, and ray guns as well as normal guns. The Magic the Gathering settings that got thrown in have tech and magic that works similarly and in some cases to an even further extent than Eberron but people just shrug that off as "one of those card game settings" where either you're a MtG fan and love it unconditionally or you aren't and just don't care, but by extent you also don't care enough to hate it. So somehow all the hate I see gets centered on Eberron and its additions, either it's fine and people don't get the complaints or it's the worst thing ever and their day is ruined for even seeing the words Warforged or Artificer.

My explanation for that is that D&D old heads (people who started in first and second edition and got their entire idea of D&D from the TSR/Gygax style of play) often have a near irrational anger at any non standard race. I've seen it for everything outside of the standard Human/Dwarf/Elf/Halfling, anything deemed "furry" with a passion rarely seen outside of oughties Something Awful forums, and even Tieflings.

Even if these people play a later edition, they usually have a chip on the shoulder about anything "new" that isn't something you stick a sword into. Some hate new classes, or the prominence of divergent gameplay. Despite being fairly accepted now, there was a lot of forum backlash to Tome of Battle for departing from the normal flavor of abilities present in D&D.

Xervous

2024-05-06, 08:42 AM

When it comes to my intense, left justified 20pt bold dislike of various races in D&D it comes down to the quality of their implementation and whether or not their concept or existence disrupts the setting.

Warforged fall into the broad category of created-non reproducing beings, which obviously require creators. For a general setting there’s the question of whether they’re old or new, old demanding serious lore integration to be interesting and coherent. There’s the question of whether or not they are plentiful, rarity leads straight to special snowflake syndrome. There’s the question of whether or not their creators are still here, and if those creators retain the ability/knowledge to make more. It takes a lot of work to fit such beings into a setting in a fashion that is palatable. Unless I’m looking for the themes to focus on them, I generally avoid introducing such beings outside of singular entities. Eberron forces the topic by making warforged new creations; if I wanted to ponder the meaning of life and what is a living creature I’d do it in a sci-fi setting.

Furry races I will dunk on endlessly when they have negligible lore or context. When the selling point is just the race’s appearance with no common literary or cultural grounding it’s just a costume.

Tieflings in general are great. My biggest gripe is the flanderization towards dollar store devil, but if you’re running 3.5e Tieflings or prior I’m happy.

Artificers are a wonderful spice, but I don’t want cumin on every dish I’m served. Some settings are better off without a centralized magic item crafting class, mechanically and/or lore wise.

glass

2024-05-06, 09:08 AM

No, they don't. Golems (unless portrayed having very robotic features for no good reason at all, which as said, I'm not terribly fond of) are more like statues; Warforged have nuts and bolts and plates and mechanical joints, ending up looking much more like a machine than a(n ideally) somewhat crude work of art.To make sure I am not talking out of my behind, I went through the ECS and looked at every warforged picture. A handful of them what could be bolts or screws. Literally none of the have "mechanical joints" or any sign of overt technology more advanced than plate armour.

Where their joints are unarmoured, they look like a wooden statue (where they are armoured, the look like plate armour of course).

Quite a lot of them do have rivets, but guess what, probably your animated armour does too!

In the interests of full disclosure, there are a couple of things I should mention:

The illo for the Warforged Juggernaught prestige class could pass for a robot although it has nothing more overtly high-tech spiked plate armour (which would actually imply quite a high tech level, is rarely objected to on that basis in other contexts). And the Wargorged Juggernought is explicitly about becoming more machine and less man, so losing the more statue-like elements makes sense.

There is also the Warforged Titan on page 303, which does have somewhat mechanical looking joints - but despite having Warforged in the name, it is a different creature. "Warforged Titans look too much like robots" is a pretty niche complaint!

I don't think either of those undermine my point in any meaningful way, but I did not want to be accused of concealing them!

Do note how I didn't even bring that upDo note how you did:

Once more, they are these robotic looking things that basically try to explore the same thing Frankenstein's monster was conceived for, except in a far less interesting or nuanced way (even compared to the usual sci-fi "Androids are people too" afterglows of the idea).

No, I didn't get that from your one-sentence throwaway line. "Androids in my fantasy is perfectly normal because Golems" pops up a lot, so I assumed it's that again.You got "androids in fantasy are fine" from explicit statements that Warforged are not androids? Did you even read the posts you responded to?

Androids in fantasy are perfectly fine of course (see Numeria for example), but you don't have to like them either. When it comes to robots and warforged, you can like either, both, or neither.

But when you try to pretend that the latter are the former in an attempt to justify something that doesn't need justifying, you should expect pushback.

1. I don't know where you saw art of Warforged that don't look technological or robotic;The Eberron Campaign Setting, as noted above.

or Warforged that aren't mass-produced in big forges,Citation needed on my suggesting that they weren't produced on forges, because I don't recall suggesting any such thing (nor would I, because AFAIK they are). EDIT: On second thought, feel free to let it drop if you can rather than providing that citation. I don't want to keep this tangent going any longer than is strictly necessary.

Disputandum, but otherwise certainly.Thanks, I can never remember that one. Edited.

I explained why I'm saying what I'm saying. Repeatedly. Until such time as you can come up with a better rebuttal than "they look like Golems which we aren't talking about so you're wrong", leave me be with this "hogwash" thing.You're free to believe all the hogwash you want, but if you post it on a public message board you should expect pushback.

Zevox

2024-05-06, 11:42 AM

Trains I will give you; it doesn't look like Eberron is for you. But it does not have robots!

Warforged have more in common with golems than sci-fi robots. Do golems also spoil your "medieval-feeling tech level"?
If they look or act sufficiently like robots, they can, yes. I did not like the Steel Watch in BG3 for that very reason, even though they were essentially golems. Fortunately that isn't inherent to their concept - it's easy to have golems that are nothing more than magically-animated stone or metal statues, incapable of speech, which do nothing but follow the orders of the mage who animated them, which is something I'm fine with.

Not so with Warforged. Even if your claims that they don't look like robots were true - and I completely disagree with that based on every image of them I've ever seen - the fact that they're sapient is an immediate deal-breaker. That's a sci-fi robot thing, and makes it pretty clear that the whole point of them is to be a robot-like player race. Which something that those who do like them seem pretty happy with, as I routinely see them referred to as robots by their fans.

And, to be clear, that's fine. Something like that should exist for those who like it, and a setting that supports it should as well. It's just never going to be for me personally.

Troacctid

2024-05-06, 12:53 PM

Important mystery? Turns out it's part of the Draconic Prophecy(TM) and Argonessen will send people shortly to grab whatever it was, sweep it under the rug, and kill any witnesses as appropriate.
There's really only three possible ways this could go, though, yeah? Either they send people to STOP your party, in which case you have to fight them; or the people they send ARE your party, in which case the story continues; or it doesn't involve the party at all, in which case it doesn't matter to the campaign.

Part of the point of the Draconic Prophecy is that things need to happen in very specific ways in order for a part of the prophecy to come to pass, and if a dragon or rakshasa is pulling for a particular outcome, they can't just act directly, because the Prophecy says something like "The Great Tower of the Darkest One will fall when the False Daughter of Cannith, thrice spurned by the Son of Khyber, strikes down the King in Blue with a fey-touched arrow under the light of four moons." If they want that to happen, they need to maneuver a bunch of really specific pieces into position. They can't just run in guns blazing.

Ignimortis

2024-05-06, 02:46 PM

It doesn't have guns and is quite against having guns.

You've set up this whole pulpy world to revolve around an industrial revolution (powered by magic, sure, but still), the adventures promised by art and descriptions are more Indiana Jones and Wild West than classical cavern-under-the-mountain raiding...and there's no six-shooters and hunting rifles? Plain dang wrong, I say!

Otherwise, I've been itching to reacquaint myself with Eberron and maybe run a game in it if it's not just rose-tinted glasses.

Zanos

2024-05-06, 02:51 PM

I think it's pretty clear, at least in my view, that traditional D&D constructs and warforged don't occupy the same design space. The main point of warforged is to raise questions like the value and nature of a soul and sentient "life", as hamfisted as it may have been, whereas the point of traditional D&D constructs is to be bodyguards for casters that don't like casting animate dead and have a lot of money to spend. They're quite different in that regard despite any superficial similarities in appearance; nobody in Faerun ever asked if an Iron Golem had a soul and deserved citizenship.

"Technology" really just being magic with some metal bits stuck to it is deeply disappointing. It's just "a Wizard did it" with a very thin veneer of somebody putting some scientific thought into it or dressing it up in metal and a few bolts or rivets. Plenty of other games and settings pull of magitech as a blend of magic and technology, they both appear separately but they also have synergy that allows them to accomplish more together than either do apart, Eberron doesn't pull that off it just has people depend on Wizards to run everything instead of relying on Wizards to be the setting's super-cop like Forgotten Realms.
One of my deep disappointments in Eberonn is the way wizards(and other casters, to some extent) are treated. Yes, wizards are supposed to be incredibly special and rare, and a high level wizard is supposed to have massive influence on the setting; but you'll miss that because it's only mentioned about once. There are supposedly Wizard circles and guilds in Eberonn but none of them gets more than a paragraph of detail. Everything important was invented by a guy with a dragonmark because dragonmarked characters essentially have a monopoly on being important. The guys that should be doing high end research into magic to progress it and develop new "technology" are swept under the rug in favor of House Smug Jackass who wants to retain his monopoly on casting mending once a day.

Metastachydium

2024-05-06, 03:07 PM

To make sure I am not talking out of my behind, I went through the ECS and looked at every warforged picture. A handful of them what could be bolts or screws.

Could be? Whatever it is, in your opinion, that holds the plating (and the connective mostly wooden bits of the composite) together, in your opinion?

Literally none of the have "mechanical joints"

I'll give you that it's not as prominent as I remembered, but all the MM3 ones sport them on parts of the limbs, especially around the waists and the Scout's ankles.

or any sign of overt technology more advanced than plate armour.

"Mechanical/overtly technological look" doesn't mean "they have advanced jetpacks". And the former certainly applies. Heck, their description in MM3 and RoE alike literally speak of built-in weaponry and whatnot. They have flat robotic faces with mechanically hinged pseudo-jaws, all have these standardized glowy ledlike looking eyes, and the Scout's come with the usual thick-rimmed goggle-like round robotic look (not exclusive to them either, if memory serves)…

Where their joints are unarmoured, they look like a wooden statue (where they are armoured, the look like plate armour of course).

Yeah, I like to wear my armour bolted to my body too. (They are not woody humanoids wearing armour; the armour is part of their body and it shows.)

Quite a lot of them do have rivets,

Ah, that's what you mean by no bolts. Not that rivets aren't bolts, but whatever. Like that little semantic tail-chasing changes much…

Not that "bits of armour that would be rather nonfunctional in this arrengement for a human riveted (happy?) onto bundles (descriptions of the things repeatedly use this word) of more flexible matter" is exactly the hard proof for your oft-repeated but impossibly vague "they look like Golems" equine feces or makes them "so obviously nothing like robots in appearence" as you keep claiming they are.

Do note how you did:

You got "androids in fantasy are fine" from explicit statements that Warforged are not androids? Did you even read the posts you responded to?

Androids in fantasy are perfectly fine of course (see Numeria for example), but you don't have to like them either. When it comes to robots and warforged, you can like either, both, or neither.

But when you try to pretend that the latter are the former in an attempt to justify something that doesn't need justifying, you should expect pushback.

?
So,
1. TaiLiu says Warforged are not robots;
2. I say they aren't as such,
2.a. but they look far too robotic for me and
2.b. are a dull and uninspired exploration of the "what if our Androids are people too" sci-fi trope, just like Frankenstein's monster (which isn't an Android);
3. and your conclusion is that
3.a. I called them Androids and
3.b. this is SOMEHOW also me insisting that the key problem with your Golem crap (notably not part of the discussion yet) is that they aren't mindless?

Come back to me when you got your **** in order.

The Eberron Campaign Setting, as noted above.

Meh. See above.

Citation needed on my suggesting that they weren't produced on forges, because I don't recall suggesting any such thing (nor would I, because AFAIK they are).

That was in response to your "they are not technological" (v. "[a]nyway, given that I was responding to Zevox's complaint about Eberron having robots - their not being or looking technological is an appropriate rebuttal to that (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=26006865&postcount=57)"). But hey, maybe "mass-produced in forges" is the new definition of "grown organically in gardens" or "hnd-built with tender love and care" in English and they just forgot to tell me.

Thanks, I can never remember that one. Edited.

No problem. I'm just a cranky Classicist and love to obsess over the proper use of gerundives.

You're free to believe all the hogwash you want, but if you post it on a public message board you should expect pushback.

If it's all just "unsupported hogwash I chose to believe because I'm wrong", I'd expect more coherent pushback than confused jumbles of filius-ante-patrem logicking and repeating nebulous statements like "they look like Golems, so they look like Golems and not robots" ad nauseam with little in the way of underpinning those strictly non-hogwash opinions.

MonochromeTiger

2024-05-06, 07:25 PM

There's really only three possible ways this could go, though, yeah? Either they send people to STOP your party, in which case you have to fight them; or the people they send ARE your party, in which case the story continues; or it doesn't involve the party at all, in which case it doesn't matter to the campaign.

Part of the point of the Draconic Prophecy is that things need to happen in very specific ways in order for a part of the prophecy to come to pass, and if a dragon or rakshasa is pulling for a particular outcome, they can't just act directly, because the Prophecy says something like "The Great Tower of the Darkest One will fall when the False Daughter of Cannith, thrice spurned by the Son of Khyber, strikes down the King in Blue with a fey-touched arrow under the light of four moons." If they want that to happen, they need to maneuver a bunch of really specific pieces into position. They can't just run in guns blazing.

But there's the thing, the Draconic Prophecy is also something that they actively stomp out any outside information sources on that they can. It's intentionally so vague that anything and everything can be argued as "this is part of the Draconic Prophecy" or "this is the Dragons or the Rakshasa or the Vampires or the Elves moving pieces around to prepare for part of the Draconic Prophecy." It also makes the entire thing lose all value because nothing you do that's actually important to the setting is allowed to be from your own actions, it's all just one of the super powerful shadowy string pulling cabals of the setting using you to their own ends. There's settings and systems that do that better, things like Shadowrun and Cyberpunk where they're very clear from the start that you are not going to have some massive impact on the setting unless you've got one of the big groups you have every reason to hate backing you up for their own reasons.

Here? It just ends up being a setting writer approved way of retroactively removing all agency. You weren't there because you were a hero rising to an unexpected threat, you were there because a Blue Dragon with too much spare time decided to act on part of the Draconic Prophecy that says he'd get a new toaster if it happens.

One of my deep disappointments in Eberonn is the way wizards(and other casters, to some extent) are treated. Yes, wizards are supposed to be incredibly special and rare, and a high level wizard is supposed to have massive influence on the setting; but you'll miss that because it's only mentioned about once. There are supposedly Wizard circles and guilds in Eberonn but none of them gets more than a paragraph of detail. Everything important was invented by a guy with a dragonmark because dragonmarked characters essentially have a monopoly on being important. The guys that should be doing high end research into magic to progress it and develop new "technology" are swept under the rug in favor of House Smug Jackass who wants to retain his monopoly on casting mending once a day.

Frankly, I'd like it more if they just outright said "no Wizards." I'd also like it more if they said "yeah there's Wizards and they have the same annoying monopoly on magical power as every other setting but there's actual technology that is somewhat closing the gap and they have to adapt or lose their place." Eberron doesn't do either, it just uses "technology" for the aesthetics and then thematically uses it for a very cynical message about economic power and being born with an advantage that has, again, been done better in other places.

TaiLiu

2024-05-06, 08:19 PM

They aren't robots as such, no, but they are artificial beings that look like robots (do I hate their visuals (but then, Eberron art never really worked for me)!), and mostly exist to explore the whole trite old "what if our androids are really people" sci-fi trope (which they don't make a particularly interesting work of for me).
That's understandable. I think there are important fantasy twists to Warforged (souls, an ancient Giantish connection, livewood) that don't make me think of robots or scifi android tropes, but I don't blame others for disagreeing.

AND YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW!!
NEVER! WARFORGED WILL ALWAYS BE TREE PEOPLE IN MY MIND!!!

I would define magitech as technology powered by magic, which may or may not include aspects of mundane scientific technology. Technomancy would for combinations only. A magitech system is one where the magical technology functions based on a system of rules, which the players can use, the same as they would any other game mechanic.

As for my complaint, well I provided links rather than bury the thread in six past threads worth of detail. But again, Eberron does not have magitech rules. It has a bunch of specific magic items, and a bunch of people members of specific families with feats that give them 1/day SLAs.

The airships that are supposedly made by teams of artificers are not: they still use normal rules, being made by one high level caster at 1 day per 1,000gp.
The magic items fail to replace the technology as suggested: their "telegraphs" don't move at the speed of light, they move at 60mph. Which is nice for medieval speeds but this is a world with 30mph trains and 20mph airships, things that are contemporary with actual speed of light telegraphs.
Their magic trains run on 100% fiat railways because the conductor stones have no price. I guess we simply assume the price for maglev train rocks is however low it needs to be.
The spells given by these dragonmarks are still tied to character level so those of sufficient power to mean something are still absurdly rare. Even the base marks being at much higher numbers than spellcasters, I'm pretty sure still don't number nearly enough to affect significant change, if the spells even mattered.
Meanwhile they can be duplicated by absurdly simple magic items, making their main feature an arbitrary discount on bigger magic items by making them require the feats. I don't even have to specify custom items either, because they make that whole point of "everything has a place in Eberron," and there's a published item that can do the job.

You say "technology" of Eberron advances through magic, but it doesn't. Not until you first establish a rule that the books made no mention of, essentially banning all new magic items (presumably also spells) without big expensive long-term possibly group research projects. Only then can you say that all the digging for ancient secrets and research advancement actually matter. Because without such a rule, I can have my character immediately invent a bunch of custom items that do everything better, without any need for dragonmarks- they require DM approval of course, but I'm generally following the formulas and unless the DM then predicates that approval upon spending a bunch of time researching them thus creating the rule that I just pointed out the setting lacks. . . yeah.

Because 3.x already has a magitech system. The item creation guidelines that many people like to treat as hard no-DM rules, are a magitech system, which can then be broken if you treat it as hard rules, just like every other published magitech system. The DMG knows this, and so requires the DM approve any new items, which is the only way you can actually have an open-ended magitech system without breaking it. The whole point of scientific/technological/whatever advancement is to figure out the rules of reality and use them to "break" the game. Steel was bad enough, steam power was bad enough, drilling for oil, electricity, we're how many busted exploits into reality by now?

Eberron is not magitech. It has a bunch of non-formula items that work because the DM said so, but only for certain characters because the DM said so, which have achieved a certain level of saturation in the setting because the DM said so.

Indeed, and the main change in operation is that none of it matters. You can't steal an airship because they can literally only be (reliably) piloted by members of the Official House, specifically born with and taking the Special Feat? Wow, so cool. Everything being tied to hereditary 'marks', which explicitly become corrupted if the bloodlines mix, means that the very mechanics of the setting ensure it remains in stasis. The Houses not only have no mechanical way to interact as organizations, they would gain nothing from actually opposing each other. Not only is it not magitech, it's specifically designed so that the backdrop cannot change. Sure there can be wars between the nations, and the PCs can go on pulpy adventures, but that's it.

I find this profoundly off-putting and dull, moreso the more I think about it. So, the "technology" of this world is tied to a series of inviolate hereditary bloodlines which are as such essentially unassailable? You're just supposed to accept that and indeed treat it as a boon, because now you don't have to think about how the tech works or where it comes from? We already had a tech system, and a perfectly functional excuse for why it wasn't widespread (there are a finite number of casters that don't feel like spending their entire lives crafting things to fix peasant problems), which, again, Eberron doesn't even get itself out of.

I don't actually want to do a game set during a magical industrial revolution, but that doesn't mean I want a setting that pretends it already happened while also being completely fiat and specifically tying it to bloodlines. I'm absolutely sick of "bloodline" sorcerer nonsense, why would I want a setting that has embraced it as the driver of all technology? That world sucks.

I've heard it suggested that a more interesting conflict would be these upstart Artificers vs the House monopolies, as the Artificers realize they don't actually have to deal with any of that House stuff (because they don't, 3.x magic items don't care about any of it) and start banding together into their own guild, and yeah that would be way more interesting. Except of course that's not what Eberron is supposed to be about- it's supposed to be about pulpy adventures with train heists and imperialistic jungle expeditions and oh spooky Mournland horror and maybe you'll help start/avert a new war etc. People are always mentioning all sorts of stuff from the setting that sounds cool, though I've not run into it, but I'm always just stuck on the entire basic premise of their quasi-post-WW. . I? I think it's supposed to be WWI-ish setting that replaces early industrial tech with 'magic' that neither respects the game's magic rules nor actually even gets the job done. Running an Artificer's Guild uprising in Eberron wouldn't be any better, it's still just a magical-industrial revolution game, except with a bunch of designated antagonists?

Well I suppose that does give you a ready institution for the PCs to oppose, rather than coming up with some nebulous "uh you're trying to make the world better so badguys attack."

And yes, I'm aware that most of the Dragonmarked Houses don't actually involve major technological infrastructure. Which makes them even less relevant.
I appreciate your thorough response! I find your view of D&D, and possibly TTRPGs in general, pretty alien to mine. Which is fine. I think we look for different things when we play.

Like, it'd be nice if they'd made an alternative ruleset for Eberron item creation, but it doesn't matter to me that they didn't. The argument that the setting hangs together cuz "the DM said so" is strange to me, since the setting is totally coherent and makes more sense to me than Faerûn or Greyhawk. The idea of the Houses being dull is a matter of taste—it's an explanation for why they've their monopolies and their power, and as baddies they're brilliant.

I dunno. There's no way I'll write anything to convince you of my beliefs. All I can say is that I've found playing in the setting fun, and none of the problems you bring up have even plagued me. But it sounds like playing in Eberron would frustrate you instead.

If you are the guy taking the train to work, it doesn't make any difference how it works. It's a train.

You buy a ticket and get on, ride down the rails, and get off at your stop.

That's the definition of magitech. Take a mundane thing, make it work by magic, but if you don't care how it works, you can't tell the difference, because the function didn't change.

It is, apparently, a definition of "magitech". It's not one I am familiar with (mine was more in line with TaiLu's), and I think it elides important differences between different concepts.
Yeah. "Some things work via magic" is not what I mean by magitech, and by that definition it's not clear how to distinguish a magitech setting from magical fantasy in general. Is Faerûn magitech cuz it has mundane things that work via magic?

Trains I will give you; it doesn't look like Eberron is for you. But it does not have robots!

Warforged have more in common with golems than sci-fi robots. Do golems also spoil your "medieval-feeling tech level"?
I think the major difference golems and scifi robots is that robots (and Warforged) are mass-produced while golems are bespoke. Warforged are a symptom of the industrial revolution in Eberron. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's why some people feel Warforged are robots. It's nothing to do with the Warforged itself and more about their production.

When a warforged is brought to life, it manifests a rune called a ghulra on its forehead for reasons that House Cannith don't understand. The name was coined by dwarf magewrights involved in the project, being a Dwarven word for "truth".

This is a direct reference to the Golem of Prague, which was brought to life by carving emet (Hebrew for "truth") into its forehead and is typically depicted with metal plates bolted to its body.
Oo, I didn't know that. Neat.

glass

2024-05-07, 02:53 AM

That was in response to your "they are not technological"So, a lie then. I already knew really that talking to you was a waste of time, but it's nice to get cast-iron confirmation. Goodbye.

I think the major difference golems and scifi robots is that robots (and Warforged) are mass-produced while golems are bespoke. Warforged are a symptom of the industrial revolution in Eberron. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's why some people feel Warforged are robots. It's nothing to do with the Warforged itself and more about their production.Funny how you can say some of the the same things as Metastachydium but without the lies and insults, and come across as much more reasonable. I still disagree, because I can think of at least two very prominent sci-fi robots who are hand made (Data and C-3P0).

That aside, there is a difference between "feels too much like robots for some people" and "are robots". The former is fine, the latter is simply not true.

Prime32

2024-05-07, 08:11 AM

I have no objection to, say, Evangelion units being called robots. Sure they're secretly lobotomised giants grown in a lab and covered in metal plating, but for the most part they function as piloted vehicles.

Warforged though, while they can be summed up as "magic robots", are a bit different thematically from most "are robots people" stories. They don't have many computer-ish mannerisms or talents, or even the ability to move their joints in freakish ways, leaning more in the "homunculus" direction (in 3.5 at least; later depictions are more robotic with things like Int bonuses and integrated tools). And they also have some shellshock and "twilight of the samurai" themes going on, with warforged being unable to adjust to times of peace where they no longer have a place in the world. And then there's the lost technology angle and the mystery of where modern warforged souls come from.

Metastachydium

2024-05-07, 09:36 AM

So, a lie then.

That must be one of the funniest excuses for walking away I've seen recently, I gotta admit. Was
1. "they are mass-produced in forges" (read: "industrially churned out autonomous weapons platforms (and products of artifice)") not written in response to your claim that "they aren't technological"?
2. Did you not say what I directly quoted from you (and linked to your post containing it)? (Interestingly enough, that would make you the liar)?
3. Or another violation of some a priori truth accessible only to you? Some restrictive definition strictly in your head (rivets are not bolts, technology is only technology if… I don't even have an idea how to complete that one)?

I already knew really that talking to you was a waste of time, but it's nice to get cast-iron confirmation.

Yes, I'm sure iron can make fine purple-coloued mists of thin gas if you heat it enough and colour it somehow.

Funny how you can say some of the the same things as Metastachydium but without the lies and insults,

Oh, damn. Those alleged lies are multiplying on their own! Suddenly there's more of them! (Also, maybe if you mind heat or the harsher tones, don't use them. Like invites like.)

That aside, there is a difference between "feels too much like robots for some people" and "are robots". The former is fine, the latter is simply not true.

Ah, that is your issue with my position! Funny thing, really, given this:

They aren't robots as such, no, but they are artificial beings that look like robots (do I hate their visuals (but then, Eberron art never really worked for me)!), and mostly exist to explore the whole trite old "what if our androids are really people" sci-fi trope (which they don't make a particularly interesting work of for me)

, but then, apparently I'm a liar. Maybe I'm a good enough liar to retroactively alter reality. Man, I'm wild.

Goodbye.

Goodbye!

That's understandable. I think there are important fantasy twists to Warforged (souls, an ancient Giantish connection, livewood) that don't make me think of robots or scifi android tropes, but I don't blame others for disagreeing.

Then I'll DISAGREE on!! (But sure, I'm glad to know they work for you better. I mean, if tere's true demand for them (as there seems to be), it is only fair to provide a supply, regardless of my position on the damn things.)

NEVER! WARFORGED WILL ALWAYS BE TREE PEOPLE IN MY MIND!!!

[Grumblegrumble.]

TaiLiu

2024-05-08, 04:51 PM

Funny how you can say some of the the same things as Metastachydium but without the lies and insults, and come across as much more reasonable. I still disagree, because I can think of at least two very prominent sci-fi robots who are hand made (Data and C-3P0).

That aside, there is a difference between "feels too much like robots for some people" and "are robots". The former is fine, the latter is simply not true.
I'll politely sidestep commentary on the conversation between you and Metastachydium, which TBH I haven't really been reading. I've never watched Star Trek or Star Wars, so I wasn't aware that some prominent scifi robots were handmade. Pretty neat.

Yeah, I don't consider Warforged robots, either. For me, they're so different from scifi robots that slotting them together doesn't make much sense.

Warforged though, while they can be summed up as "magic robots", are a bit different thematically from most "are robots people" stories. They don't have many computer-ish mannerisms or talents, or even the ability to move their joints in freakish ways, leaning more in the "homunculus" direction (in 3.5 at least; later depictions are more robotic with things like Int bonuses and integrated tools). And they also have some shellshock and "twilight of the samurai" themes going on, with warforged being unable to adjust to times of peace where they no longer have a place in the world. And then there's the lost technology angle and the mystery of where modern warforged souls come from.
Agreed for sure. The themes that they embody and bring up are pretty different from stereotypical robot themes.

Then I'll DISAGREE on!! (But sure, I'm glad to know they work for you better. I mean, if tere's true demand for them (as there seems to be), it is only fair to provide a supply, regardless of my position on the damn things.)

[Grumblegrumble.]
Curiously, I don't think I consider myself to be one of those people who demand Warforged. Eberron works fine without them. But I think Eberron is cooler with them than without them.

I can't hear your grumbling cuz flowers don't have vocal cords. :smalltongue:

Metastachydium

2024-05-09, 10:16 AM

Curiously, I don't think I consider myself to be one of those people who demand Warforged. Eberron works fine without them. But I think Eberron is cooler with them than without them.

Ah, no, no, I didn't mean to imply that you do. I'm using supply and demand in the economical sense here: "so long as there are buyers, why not sell them?"

I can't hear your grumbling cuz flowers don't have vocal cords. :smalltongue:

Oh, come on! We've been through this! I speak through cavitation and it's totally audible!

AMFV

2024-05-09, 02:13 PM

I'm curious if arguing with people about the specific definitions they're using to explain why they dislike a thing has ever convinced them to like the thing?

No wait, I guess Warforged aren't robots, I like Eberron now!

Magitech is typically used to describe a setting where there are elements of modern anachronism powered by magic. The degree of magic or tech doesn't really matter that much. if it's a fantasy setting with magic trains, it's probably magitech. Or at least will be similar enough to magitech that the distinction is no longer meaningful and quibbling over that definition doesn't change the fact that Eberron is very much that. And that's not a bad thing. That's literally an intended part of the setting. You have trains, basically you have the world effectively in a place pretty similar to the interwar period between World War 1 and 2. That's the way the setting is designed. There's a lot of callbacks to that particular intention, particularly a lot of the noir stuff, given that a lot of noir is set in that era.

Warforged are robots. Sure there might be differences in the exact mechanics that power them but thematically they are robots. And there's nothing wrong with that. They might have elements of golem lore in their fluff. But they're robots. If you were describing Eberron to somebody, tell me honestly... would you describe Warforged to them without using the word "robot".

TaiLiu

2024-05-09, 09:34 PM

Ah, no, no, I didn't mean to imply that you do. I'm using supply and demand in the economical sense here: "so long as there are buyers, why not sell them?"

Oh, come on! We've been through this! I speak through cavitation and it's totally audible!
Oh, I see. Surprisingly, the original demand for Warforged came from the lead designers of D&D. Originally, Warforged were bespoke and custom-made. More like playable golems than they are now.

Now I'm curious. Could people bio-engineer a plant that can produce comprehensible speech through cavitation? :O

I'm curious if arguing with people about the specific definitions they're using to explain why they dislike a thing has ever convinced them to like the thing?

Magitech is typically used to describe a setting where there are elements of modern anachronism powered by magic. The degree of magic or tech doesn't really matter that much. if it's a fantasy setting with magic trains, it's probably magitech. Or at least will be similar enough to magitech that the distinction is no longer meaningful and quibbling over that definition doesn't change the fact that Eberron is very much that. And that's not a bad thing. That's literally an intended part of the setting. You have trains, basically you have the world effectively in a place pretty similar to the interwar period between World War 1 and 2. That's the way the setting is designed. There's a lot of callbacks to that particular intention, particularly a lot of the noir stuff, given that a lot of noir is set in that era.

Warforged are robots. Sure there might be differences in the exact mechanics that power them but thematically they are robots. And there's nothing wrong with that. They might have elements of golem lore in their fluff. But they're robots. If you were describing Eberron to somebody, tell me honestly... would you describe Warforged to them without using the word "robot".
I made the original post disagreeing with what I considered to be misconceptions re: Eberron. I mentioned in that post that my goal explicitly wasn't to get people to like Eberron. So the fact that people don't like Eberron more isn't a problem at all.

That's another definition of magitech that I'm unfamiliar with. I agree Eberron is intended to evoke certain aspects of the postwar world in the 20th century, but I wouldn't define it as magitech. But, as you mention, the term doesn't matter. If someone said "I don't like the trains" or "I don't like the postwar feel" or some other set of specific complaints, then Eberron isn't for them regardless of whether we consider Eberron magitech or not.

I absolutely would describe Warforged to a new player without using the word "robot." The word has too many associations that Warforged don't fit.

Harrow

2024-05-10, 12:45 AM

TaiLiu

2024-05-10, 01:28 AM

I'm not sure if people thinking that Warforged aren't robots makes them more of a success or a failure. They were intended to be robots with the serial numbers filed off and covered in a fantasy coat of paint, in the same way that the dragonmarked houses relate to megacorporations. Which has me wondering (again, I've never gotten too deep in Eberron lore), is there an Eberron equivalent to virtual reality? Some sort of dream realm, maybe?
Dal Quor is the plane of dreams and the location of one of the setting's big bads, the Dreaming Dark. During the Age of Giants, the titular giants smashed the thirteenth moon and cut off any planar portals to and from the plane. Now the only way to the plane is by dreaming by sleeping.

In short, there's no Eberron equivalent to VR unless you consider your dreams to be equivalent to VR.

AMFV

2024-05-10, 04:39 AM

.

I absolutely would describe Warforged to a new player without using the word "robot." The word has too many associations that Warforged don't fit.

And then after you finish describing them to the new player, I would bet you around $50 that the new player would then say "so they're sort of like robots then?" And then whatever semantics stuff you said after that would not shake the connection between robots and warforged in that players mind because the connection is really obvious.

And response to your other issue with magitech... That's not really a term that has a formal definition that you can rigidly apply. It's a term that has to do with how a setting feels. Star Wars is generally considered to be fantasy even though it's got a bunch of high technology stuff in it. Because of the feel of the setting. The same is true here, I would draw a lot more comparisons with things like final fantasy 6 and ebron then I would with Amy fantasy work. Also to note being a magitech setting is not a negative. It might be a negative for some players. But in and of itself it is not a negative thing. You want to have different settings that appeal to different people.

glass

2024-05-10, 08:39 AM

I'm curious if arguing with people about the specific definitions they're using to explain why they dislike a thing has ever convinced them to like the thing?Very much not the point.

De gustibus non est disputadum. I have no reason to care what people like or dislike. OTOH, I do care what people misrepresent - ideally, I'd hope to convince them to stop, but failing that I'll try to correct misconceptions as I become aware of them.

Xervous

2024-05-10, 08:51 AM

Out of curiosity I dipped my toe into TVTropes to see what the prevailing perception of magitech was and an Eberron airship was smack dab at the top of the article. Associated page lists Eberron as an example.

TVTROPES LINK CLICK AT OWN RISK. Not responsible for lost spare time.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Magitek

Eberron features a Pulp Adventure setting influenced by Indiana Jones movies, mixed with Dungeon Punk, in a faux-19th century world making use of arcane technology and magic for infrastructure, travel and everyday life. This includes magic streetlights, magic trains and planes, magic grenade launchers, and magic robots. Magic is such an everyday thing that many of the working class are Magewrights with just enough talent to power minor wands (or create them, with the right training). There's even an industry in magic items which reduce the training required to craft other magic items. Player Characters can become Artificers, who are better at creating and using magic items than wizards despite not being able to cast spells

Links in the quote were sanitized, so some of the words used may be invoking tropes rather than setting terms.

Zevox

2024-05-10, 03:46 PM

Star Wars is generally considered to be fantasy even though it's got a bunch of high technology stuff in it.
To be fair, I think it unlikely that most people would consider Star Wars fantasy. Most would just look at the outer space setting and high technology and call it Sci-Fi. It's only nitpicky nerds like us that would even think about it any further than that.

And that's not entirely unreasonable on the average person's part, either. The one big fantasy element in Star Wars is the Force, and while a lot of Star Wars does center around force-users, there can be and have been Star Wars stories where force users had little or no involvement, and it'd be kind of hard to call those any kind of fantasy.

RedWarlock

2024-05-10, 04:37 PM

I'm curious if arguing with people about the specific definitions they're using to explain why they dislike a thing has ever convinced them to like the thing?

Yes, a few times. Mainly in setting-genre-feel mismatch, like this. I've had more than one player, who first heard an idea and said, "Oh, I dunno if I like that," whether it be mechanics, or lore, or metaphysics, but when I've been able to explain the idea, especially if they carry through the "and then, this means.." conclusions through more than two steps, we can usually get the mismatch to feel more grounded.

As a big time Eberron fan, I haven't had any reason to chime in on the core topic, but as someone with experience, Warforged are golems, and robots, and synthetic people, and each of these describes a different, but adjacent, conceptual story. Golems are about a caster containing a power beyond their full control, and eventually losing that control. Robots are about tools vs slaves, and the borderline between the two concepts. And synthetic people are about the emulation of personhood, physically and socially. Warforged can do all three, and I'm sure there are others, tho I think this hits the major options in some form or another. You can be using zombies and necromancy as easily as electronic machines, but it's still the core theme of the robot-slave. Golems are rooted in mythology and fantasy, but the Cylons of new BSG (especially the prequel Caprica) are the same plot, creation overcoming creator. It's all a spectrum of eras and genres, and there are no hard borders except the personal tastes of our own specific definitions.

AMFV

2024-05-10, 07:08 PM

Very much not the point.

De gustibus non est disputadum. I have no reason to care what people like or dislike. OTOH, I do care what people misrepresent - ideally, I'd hope to convince them to stop, but failing that I'll try to correct misconceptions as I become aware of them.

Except that Eberron is Magitech, and Warforged are robots. As has been pointed out later by somebody smarter than me, they are multiple things.

To be fair, I think it unlikely that most people would consider Star Wars fantasy. Most would just look at the outer space setting and high technology and call it Sci-Fi. It's only nitpicky nerds like us that would even think about it any further than that.

And that's not entirely unreasonable on the average person's part, either. The one big fantasy element in Star Wars is the Force, and while a lot of Star Wars does center around force-users, there can be and have been Star Wars stories where force users had little or no involvement, and it'd be kind of hard to call those any kind of fantasy.

The fantasy part is the laser swords and the heroes quest. Not "The Force". It's the plot and themes that make it fantasy.

Yes, a few times. Mainly in setting-genre-feel mismatch, like this. I've had more than one player, who first heard an idea and said, "Oh, I dunno if I like that," whether it be mechanics, or lore, or metaphysics, but when I've been able to explain the idea, especially if they carry through the "and then, this means.." conclusions through more than two steps, we can usually get the mismatch to feel more grounded.

But in that case, that's somebody who is unfamiliar with something being corrected. Not somebody with a different experience being browbeaten. If I say "I don't know if I'll like Star Wars I'm not into Sci Fi" and somebody says "Well it's closer to fantasy but IN SPACE." That might convince me. But if I say "I don't like Star Wars because it's fantasy, and I think it's fantasy for these reasons" then quibbling is never going to convince me.

As a big time Eberron fan, I haven't had any reason to chime in on the core topic, but as someone with experience, Warforged are golems, and robots, and synthetic people, and each of these describes a different, but adjacent, conceptual story. Golems are about a caster containing a power beyond their full control, and eventually losing that control. Robots are about tools vs slaves, and the borderline between the two concepts. And synthetic people are about the emulation of personhood, physically and socially. Warforged can do all three, and I'm sure there are others, tho I think this hits the major options in some form or another. You can be using zombies and necromancy as easily as electronic machines, but it's still the core theme of the robot-slave. Golems are rooted in mythology and fantasy, but the Cylons of new BSG (especially the prequel Caprica) are the same plot, creation overcoming creator. It's all a spectrum of eras and genres, and there are no hard borders except the personal tastes of our own specific definitions.

Agreed! I think this is probably the best take. There are a lot of different aspects about Warforged and if a person dislikes any of them, they are likely to dislike all of them. I personally don't mind Warforged at all. But they do create a setting with a very different feel than most of your big five traditional fantasy races.

Zevox

2024-05-10, 07:15 PM

The fantasy part is the laser swords and the heroes quest. Not "The Force". It's the plot and themes that make it fantasy.
Only some Star Wars stories are heroes quest stories, and laser swords are technology. If by "Star Wars" you meant strictly the original film, that's at least a reasonable argument (although again, I think the average person will not think of it that way and will tell you it's Sci-Fi if you ask them what genre the movie is); if you mean the franchise as a whole, it's really not. It's the heavy layer of magic and mysticism that the Force and force-users lend it that makes it more reasonable to consider the franchise as a whole more fantasy (although again, there are exceptions that can challenge that view).

AMFV

2024-05-10, 07:21 PM

Only some Star Wars stories are heroes quest stories, and laser swords are technology. If by "Star Wars" you meant strictly the original film, that's at least a reasonable argument (although again, I think the average person will not think of it that way and will tell you it's Sci-Fi if you ask them what genre the movie is); if you mean the franchise as a whole, it's really not. It's the heavy layer of magic and mysticism that the Force and force-users lend it that makes it more reasonable to consider the franchise as a whole more fantasy (although again, there are exceptions that can challenge that view).

Off-Topic, but I would largely consider the original trilogy and the prequals to be Space Fantasy, as well as TOR and KOTOR. There are exceptions later on. The Mandalorian is closer to Westerns or Samurai films than fantasy films. Clone Wars is it's own weird thing. I think that what the average person says is not really important here though, what's important is how it makes you feel.

To get back on topic. There are large chunks of Eberron that aren't not particularly Magitech or Magicpunk. And you could run an Eberron game that would not fall into those genres even though the larger setting does. The only thing I think you really couldn't escape with Eberron is that it's pulpy, and I think that at least in my opinion all of D&D tends to be pulpy so getting awy from that would be pretty difficult. But I think that if we're talking the whole setting it is pretty geared towards Magitech stuff.

Edit: Like if you were running a game in FR set in Halruaa it would probably be pretty Magicpunk/Magitech at least in feel. But that's not most of the setting, Eberron has the reverse.

Daisy

2024-05-11, 11:55 AM

My 2cp: Star Wars and Star Trek are both 100% fantasy. Not saying that's good or bad, mind. But both have zero science in them (neither can even manage zero g space movement for their ships!). Setting something in space doesn't make it science fiction, just as setting something in medieval times doesn't make it fantasy.

Science fiction posits a scientific breakthrough and explores how that can affect our lives, our society. Fantasy says, "Imagine if we could shoot fire from our fingers just by thinking about it".

But as I say, that's just my take on it.

MonochromeTiger

2024-05-11, 03:55 PM

On the is Eberron magitech thing and the are Warforged Robots thing, it absolutely can be a very subjective issue and depend heavily on who's portraying them and how. That said by my personal views on it I wouldn't call Eberron's technology "magitech", at best it's slightly creative use of magic for mundane purposes which is kind of the entire point of several "flavor" spells already. I also don't consider Warforged Robots since most portrayals I've seen lean more toward the Golem or magically created Humanoid interpretations, though I'm also predisposed toward the latter of the two considering D&D is full of "we messed around with magic and it ended up accidentally bringing an entire species into existence" backstories.

On the matter of "would you call Star Wars Scifi or Fantasy", the answer is I wouldn't call it either because it isn't specifically either; even leaving aside the highly contested and subjective labels of "soft" Scifi where it ranges from "everything is technobabble" to "there's one or two things that aren't carefully mapped out to scientific theory" versus "hard" Scifi where it ranges from "everything has some theory and thought behind it" to "if it can't be replicated with technology we are currently actively working on it doesn't count." The actual genre for things like Star Wars or Warhammer 40,000 or similar things is Science Fantasy, the blending of science fiction elements (usually specifically "soft" Scifi elements) with fantasy elements which are more mystical in nature even if they make a vague allusion to the idea that there's some in universe science behind it.

Getting things different from our scientific understanding doesn't immediately move something out of Scifi or just about every old work that relies on theories that have since been disproved would get the axe. If all Scifi was purely down to full accuracy and things we've confirmed it would sadly get boring pretty quickly; the inclusion of some plasma sword in a space-soldier's arsenal may not seem realistic when guns would have already advanced so hilariously far that melee should barely be viable let alone a standard tactic but it's still not the same as making it Fantasy, that's the realm of actual magic.

Star Wars? Science Fantasy, mix of soft Scifi with all the tech and overt Fantasy with the force and other bits of space magic and mysticism. Eberron? Entirely Fantasy, everything in setting loops back to "it's magic", there is no actual attempt to make any hint of scientific backing to it without that backing just being the study of magic, and even many of the unique elements of the setting like Dragonmarks and Warforged are very much a magical mystery and not a technological one. It can absolutely explore themes that aren't usually applied to Fantasy but themes can be genre agnostic, especially when those themes are as loose as "what makes someone a person", class warfare, or nature vs technology. Star Trek? Soft Scifi if you avoid things like Q and other major reality warping entities, Science Fantasy as soon as you throw those in because they routinely make it clear there's a mystical element to what they're doing and how they do it.

Snowbluff

2024-05-11, 08:25 PM

One of my deep disappointments in Eberonn is the way wizards(and other casters, to some extent) are treated. Yes, wizards are supposed to be incredibly special and rare, and a high level wizard is supposed to have massive influence on the setting; but you'll miss that because it's only mentioned about once. There are supposedly Wizard circles and guilds in Eberonn but none of them gets more than a paragraph of detail. Everything important was invented by a guy with a dragonmark because dragonmarked characters essentially have a monopoly on being important. The guys that should be doing high end research into magic to progress it and develop new "technology" are swept under the rug in favor of House Smug Jackass who wants to retain his monopoly on casting mending once a day.

This is my main point of contention. I really don't like overbearing guild systems that monopolize an aspect of the setting. It creates a very constricted setting where player characters are only allow to do X thing if they belong to Y faction.

Bonzai

2024-05-12, 05:12 AM

I have only had the opportunity to play in Eberron once. I enjoyed it. It allowed me to play a build that my DM would normally never allow. But if I had to choose a complaint about it, it would be that the published campaign mods aren't great. Over all it can be a fun setting, especially if you have no plans to go epic. For my part, I transitioned into a homebrew setting for my games. I got tired of established settings getting nuked during edition changes (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms 4E, etc..).

AnonJr

2024-05-12, 10:52 AM

But if I had to choose a complaint about it, it would be that the published campaign mods aren't great.

Yeah, we bumped into some of the more interesting problems with the Eye of the Litch Queen campaign when my sister used it to try her hand at DM. For the most part it worked, and some of the issues were "novice DM" issues, but some of the issues were definitely with the campaign. One or two might have been the result of the party doing some unexpected stuff that she found less fun on the other side of the DM screen. :smalltongue:

RedMage125

2024-05-12, 01:07 PM

This is my main point of contention. I really don't like overbearing guild systems that monopolize an aspect of the setting. It creates a very constricted setting where player characters are only allow to do X thing if they belong to Y faction.

Then allow me to clarify a misconception, if this is your main point of contention.

Those overbearing guild systems don't constrict ANYTHING that a player character is allowed to do. They create a framework of what an NPC is likely to do or have done.

Even within their respective baliwicks, they provide training to non-family individuals, and basically create a standard of quality. Non-Jorasco affilitaed healers exist, but it's also possible to have a non-family member (even a non-halfling) who was trained by House Jorasco. But is small, remote villages, a Healer may be an herbalist using remedies and methods handed down by oral tradition, and the whole village trusts them. Jorasco may just not have a presence there, because it's too remote to be profitable.

There's even details in the setting of how these things are identified. Take House Cannith, for example (Mark of Making, appears on humans, symbol is a gorgon), a dwarf blacksmith may have a silver gorgon emblem on the sign to their shop. This tells customers that he was trained by Cannith, and his work meets Cannith standards of quality. This also, by the way, is the in-game explanation for the stabdardization of prices of goods in the PHB. Meanwhile, the blacksmith owned and operated by an actual member of the house has a golden gorgon symbol. Restaurants not run by a dragonmarked scion with the Mark of Hospitality, likewise, have a silver blink dog emblem, which tells customers that a certain standard of quality is being met (much like how IRL Restaurants display their Health Inspection score).

But none of this constrains PCs. A PC artificer makes a bunch of magic items and sells them? Who cares? A PC cleric or Paladin passes out free healing? Again, who cares? One individual is not going to significantly affect the House's profit margin.

AMFV

2024-05-12, 01:28 PM

But none of this constrains PCs. A PC artificer makes a bunch of magic items and sells them? Who cares? A PC cleric or Paladin passes out free healing? Again, who cares? One individual is not going to significantly affect the House's profit margin.

You have clearly never been on a union job site and picked up a shovel near a laborer or got into a skid steer to move it near an operator. In a union or guild system the answer is everybody cares because they know that once they stop caring once they let one person do it basically that's the start of the downfall for everything because then everybody's going to do it.

Edit: now it is possible that a DM might choose not to enforce that but the guild aspect of it is pretty heavy on the non-compete in the setting elements and therefore probably would be likely to be the same as the real world equivalent in that respect.

TaiLiu

2024-05-12, 08:30 PM

And then after you finish describing them to the new player, I would bet you around $50 that the new player would then say "so they're sort of like robots then?" And then whatever semantics stuff you said after that would not shake the connection between robots and warforged in that players mind because the connection is really obvious.

And response to your other issue with magitech... That's not really a term that has a formal definition that you can rigidly apply. It's a term that has to do with how a setting feels. Star Wars is generally considered to be fantasy even though it's got a bunch of high technology stuff in it. Because of the feel of the setting. The same is true here, I would draw a lot more comparisons with things like final fantasy 6 and ebron then I would with Amy fantasy work. Also to note being a magitech setting is not a negative. It might be a negative for some players. But in and of itself it is not a negative thing. You want to have different settings that appeal to different people.
Maybe! I'd work really hard to disassociate robots from Warforged, since I think seeing them like robots misplaces a lot of their storytelling potential. But I can't control what others think or say.

Well, all right. Eberron doesn't feel magitech to me. Maybe it feels magitech to someone else. Our differing conceptions will affect the way we understand, play, and run the setting. If magitech's about feeling, I'll alter my disagreement and instead say that Eberron needn't be or feel magitech.

Then allow me to clarify a misconception, if this is your main point of contention.

Those overbearing guild systems don't constrict ANYTHING that a player character is allowed to do. They create a framework of what an NPC is likely to do or have done.

Even within their respective baliwicks, they provide training to non-family individuals, and basically create a standard of quality. Non-Jorasco affilitaed healers exist, but it's also possible to have a non-family member (even a non-halfling) who was trained by House Jorasco. But is small, remote villages, a Healer may be an herbalist using remedies and methods handed down by oral tradition, and the whole village trusts them. Jorasco may just not have a presence there, because it's too remote to be profitable.

There's even details in the setting of how these things are identified. Take House Cannith, for example (Mark of Making, appears on humans, symbol is a gorgon), a dwarf blacksmith may have a silver gorgon emblem on the sign to their shop. This tells customers that he was trained by Cannith, and his work meets Cannith standards of quality. This also, by the way, is the in-game explanation for the stabdardization of prices of goods in the PHB. Meanwhile, the blacksmith owned and operated by an actual member of the house has a golden gorgon symbol. Restaurants not run by a dragonmarked scion with the Mark of Hospitality, likewise, have a silver blink dog emblem, which tells customers that a certain standard of quality is being met (much like how IRL Restaurants display their Health Inspection score).

But none of this constrains PCs. A PC artificer makes a bunch of magic items and sells them? Who cares? A PC cleric or Paladin passes out free healing? Again, who cares? One individual is not going to significantly affect the House's profit margin.

You have clearly never been on a union job site and picked up a shovel near a laborer or got into a skid steer to move it near an operator. In a union or guild system the answer is everybody cares because they know that once they stop caring once they let one person do it basically that's the start of the downfall for everything because then everybody's going to do it.
Keith Baker has done a Q&A about this topic (https://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-the-dragonmarked-houses-pt-2/) before. His words:

I get the impression that the houses are everywhere, and if you open a business that’s within their “domain”, you either have to join the house or get stomped on. If my character starts a mercenary Company, would they have to eventually join with house Deneith? The problem with that, is that, if my character don’t possess a dragonmark or family within that house, he’ll only be able to climb so far within it.

First: It is entirely possible to operate a business without being affiliated with a house. There’s many independent mercenary companies, many smiths who don’t work for Cannith, many inns that aren’t tied to Ghallanda. One wizard who can cast Sending doesn’t pose a threat to House Sivis; it’s only if he actually comes up with a way to offer service on the same scale that they do that he becomes a real threat.

So, one independent mercenary company of 100 people based in Sharn doesn’t pose a threat to Deneith. But an independent mercenary army of 10,000 people with branches in multiple cities DOES pose a threat to Deneith, and they would attempt to stop it or assimilate it before it reached that level.

With that said, assimilation is always the preferred path. Most houses would rather just get a share of your profits that wipe you out. As described in Dragonmarked, Guild membership comes in three flavors. Most businesses are licensed. They pay a small percentage of profits and vow to uphold guild standards, and in exchange they get to show the guild stamp. So the average inn isn’t OWNED by Ghallanda, but it’s licensed by Ghallanda; the seal of the Hosteller’s Guild is an assurance that you won’t get food poisoning, be killed in the night, etc. Bound businesses are essentially franchises, and the nature of the services they offer are dictated by the guild. So an inn licensed by Ghallanda can serve whatever food it wants, as long as the quality meets Guild standards; but a Gold Dragon Inn has to serve the same core menu as all other Gold Dragon Inns.

So back to you: You want to start a mercenary company. You could be entirely independent and do your own thing, and as long as you don’t seriously threaten Deneith’s business they’ll leave you alone. However, you might find that clients pass you up and hire licensed Deneith mercenaries instead, because the Deneith seal assures them that the soldiers meet Deneith standards of training and discipline, and because they can go to the house for compensation if the mercs fail to perform. And if you decide to be licensed by Deneith, they aren’t going to try to limit your success; they’ll even send work your way. They’ll simply expect a share of your profits.

The houses do work to maintain their monopolies, but they’d rather be making money from you than spending money crushing you. They’ll only take ruthless action if they truly see you as a mortal threat to their overall success.

So Red Mage's idea of the Houses aligns more with Baker's. With that said, it wouldn't be wrong for a DM to run more ruthless versions of the Houses in their game. The feel would simply be different from Kanon.

AMFV

2024-05-13, 05:20 AM

So Red Mage's idea of the Houses aligns more with Baker's. With that said, it wouldn't be wrong for a DM to run more ruthless versions of the Houses in their game. The feel would simply be different from Kanon.

I don't actually agree with that. At least not from what I'm reading from baker. Also I don't think he's baker has that much experience with unions and that kind of environment. It's a common thing where the author of a setting doesn't really know enough about something when they're putting it in there to understand the nuances of it.

The thing is it in real life unions and guilds how they operate isn't by crushing the competition it's by convincing the wealthy and powerful only to make deals with the union or guild. Like the way we get market share is by convincing people that going with us is the best path and that makes other companies and people outside of our organization not nearly as strong. Basically in an area that's controlled by a guild it would be very hard to start a business if you weren't part of the guild because nobody wants to be seen doing business with you.

Edit: it's also important to note that having a setting focused on unions or guilds is not a negative. It's just something that means that it's not universally as good for all campaigns. But that's not necessarily something you want on a campaign setting you might want a campaign setting that tells a particular kind of story that's more niche.

Metastachydium

2024-05-13, 10:22 AM

Now I'm curious. Could people bio-engineer a plant that can produce comprehensible speech through cavitation? :O

Comprehensible to humans? It is possible, although due to the different nature of the mechanism, the result would probably be more like rapid-fire Morse code than anything else, and it would likely require hearing aids (puny human ears are laughably bad at picking up the frequencies that TRULY matter).

RedMage125

2024-05-13, 10:38 AM

So Red Mage's idea of the Houses aligns more with Baker's. With that said, it wouldn't be wrong for a DM to run more ruthless versions of the Houses in their game. The feel would simply be different from Kanon.
Yes, this. But there's also canon (not just Kanon) examples as well.

You have clearly never been on a union job site and picked up a shovel near a laborer or got into a skid steer to move it near an operator. In a union or guild system the answer is everybody cares because they know that once they stop caring once they let one person do it basically that's the start of the downfall for everything because then everybody's going to do it.

Edit: now it is possible that a DM might choose not to enforce that but the guild aspect of it is pretty heavy on the non-compete in the setting elements and therefore probably would be likely to be the same as the real world equivalent in that respect.

I don't actually agree with that. At least not from what I'm reading from baker. Also I don't think he's baker has that much experience with unions and that kind of environment. It's a common thing where the author of a setting doesn't really know enough about something when they're putting it in there to understand the nuances of it.

The thing is it in real life unions and guilds how they operate isn't by crushing the competition it's by convincing the wealthy and powerful only to make deals with the union or guild. Like the way we get market share is by convincing people that going with us is the best path and that makes other companies and people outside of our organization not nearly as strong. Basically in an area that's controlled by a guild it would be very hard to start a business if you weren't part of the guild because nobody wants to be seen doing business with you.

Edit: it's also important to note that having a setting focused on unions or guilds is not a negative. It's just something that means that it's not universally as good for all campaigns. But that's not necessarily something you want on a campaign setting you might want a campaign setting that tells a particular kind of story that's more niche.

The Dragonmarked Houses are not even trying to perfectly imitate real world modern unions, though. So it's not a proper parallel. And hinging your arguments on a failure to reflect a parallel that it isn't even trying to model is like saying toasters are bad appliances because they don't make ice cream.

There's competition that exists in-setting. The Aurum provides banking services (lines of credit, etc) to its members, which competes with House Kundarak. The people of the Eldeen Reaches wouldn't rely on the Raincallers Guild of House Lyrandar for help with their crops, they'd go to gleaners or druids native to the area. Any adventuring party that takes monetary payment for a job is essentially competing with House Deneith's mercenaries. Hell, there's another House competing with them, because House Tharashk (humans and half orcs, Mark of Finding) is the one supplying monstrous mercenaries from Droaam (ogres, minotaurs, gnolls, etc). House Cannith doesn't have an actual monopoly on the craft of artificers, as evidenced by the fact that elemental binding techniques are exclusive to the gnomes of Zilargo (who stole the technique from the drow of Xen'drik). Things like Airships, the Lightning Rail, and so on, are the result of collaboration between Cannith, Zilargo, and the respective House that operates the equipment.

As far as "no one wants to be seen doing business with you"...that's not quite accurate, as the Houses are big enough that one small competing shop doesn't threaten them. But the Houses create standards of quality and affordability that are difficult to compete with. If a new weapon smith makes longswords, but they cost more than 15 gp, and/or don't have the guarantee of quality that a Cannith-licensed Smith does...then it's more of a question of WHY anyone WOULD patronize them, not a matter of being perceived as patronizing scabs. And if the smith is really talented, then, as the book Dragonmarked shows, the more likely scenario is for him to be invited to join the House, perhaps even through marriage.

This is more Kanon, but KB was once asked how House Jorasco would respond to a dragonmarked member of the House who didn't believe in charging for his services, asking if he'd be excioriated. KB's answer was that the DM can run whatever result he wants, of course, but that he (KB) would say probably not. More likely, the House would spin that member's actions as free PR. "Look at the quality of healing our services can provide. This is just a free sample, but it showcases what kinds of amazing results you can get when you use House Jorasco services!"

So...again...nothing stops a PC from doing anything. Even if they provide a quality service identical to a House in an area where that House has influence, the most likely scenario is being lauded by the House and getting them as patrons.

If the House Guilds running out scabs is a more fun storyline for you, then run it that way. But that's not really the default. I'm just going by what's been canon (and Kanon) in the setting. And that default isn't really what you're talking about. Nor what Snowbluff was expressing.

Zanos

2024-05-13, 04:24 PM

Baker's examples in his quote seem to refute his own idea that you can do business outside of the guilds. If you aren't guild certified people won't do business with you in many cases, and if you become successful despite the guilds handicapping you by badmouthing your reputation then they will try to take a cut of everything you do even if they have had no hand in your success, and in fact actively worked against it by spreading the idea that non-House affiliated people doing a House trade are not reputable. Saying that players aren't constrained by guilds and then describing a guild system that sabotages non Guild labor and will actively try to assimilate non-Guild labor that is successful in spite of that is, definitionally, being constrained by the guilds. Of course the House would rather just have you pay it off for having done nothing to help you then use violence or political skullduggery to destroy you, but the reason most people go along with being assimilated is because the alternative to "consenting" to being extorted for no services rendered is to be made an enemy of the Dragonmarked Houses and likely losing your ability to do business permanently, either because you are dead or blacklisted. The Houses providing a certain standard of quality is certainly true but it's disingenuous to pretend the Houses are nice people that just want you to kick back a little in order to make sure people get good quality goods; they are a cartel first and foremost and only appear to play nice when you are doing what they want you to do. They absolutely have a dark side if you are cutting into their business. The Dragonmarked Houses are not based on labor unions but ARE partly based on turn of the century American monopolies, the ones with names that people still recognize today, like Carnegie Steel and Rockefeller's Standard Oil Co. And sure, Carnegie wasn't going to have you assassinated if you refused to play ball, but he would absolutely use his political and economic connections to make sure that you could never do business in his industry again. And actually, if push came to shove, these aren't the kind of people who were above violence either. Like when a workers union working for Carnegie Steel went on strike, and the US National Guard was deployed to protect...the strike breakers, not the strikers, and 16 people were killed. Oh, and about that assassination comment further up? Yeah, a couple of the Dragonmarked houses canonically maintain a team of assassins.

Just because the constraints aren't absolute doesn't mean they aren't far more oppressive than in other published settings. Generally players don't want to be taxed and play politics in order to get contracts to kill goblins, and which is why a good number of published modules and adventure hooks take place in less "tame" areas of the setting they are in so that players have room for agency without being crushed or assimilated.

RedMage125

2024-05-13, 08:55 PM

Just because the constraints aren't absolute doesn't mean they aren't far more oppressive than in other published settings. Generally players don't want to be taxed and play politics in order to get contracts to kill goblins, and which is why a good number of published modules and adventure hooks take place in less "tame" areas of the setting they are in so that players have room for agency without being crushed or assimilated.

First of all, and I genuinely mean this constructively, please break up your post into smaller paragraphs, especially when shifting focus in subjects. I liked the content of your post, but the formatting was painful to read.

My major counterpoint is that the players aren't going to be able to "cut into their business". Not in a significant enough fashion to bring down the kind of heat you're talking about. There are already other independent businesses out there. Not every magewright or artificer works for Cannith. KB called out non-Deneith mercenary companies. Artisans and Entertainers are not ALL going to be working for the Shadow Houses. And there are hundreds of inns and taverns not affiliated with House Ghallanda. Now, there are some things the Houses have a monopoly on, but those are usually services that directly stem from their dragonmarks. Only House Sivis maintains stations with Speaking Stones. Only House Vadalis creates magebred animals. Only the Shadow Houses operate crystal theaters. And the Resurrection Altar in Sharn requires a Greater Mark of Healing to operate.

The Dragonmarked Houses do have dark sides, and at least 3 houses that I can name without looking (both elf houses and Ghallanda, who employs Black Dogs) have assassins. And yes, they do all operate in their own self-interest. But you may be surprised to learn that they're not all like the Industry Barons of the 19th and 20th century (and certainly not like the corporate moguls of the 21st). The book Dragonmarked goes into great detail about the leadership of the Houses. You may be surprised to learn that, canonically, several of them have very altruistic intentions. I remember that, for example, only one of the triumvirate of barons that rules House Tharashk has sinister motives, for example.

But, to your closing point, the Houses are almost always, in canon, portrayed as more likely to be patrons to groups or individuals with similar talents than antagonistic (unless a corrupt baron is the BBEG or something). A PC who crafts several magic items is more likely to get a job offer from one or more of the Cannith factions than find themselves targeted for being competition.

AMFV

2024-05-13, 09:21 PM

The Dragonmarked Houses are not even trying to perfectly imitate real world modern unions, though. So it's not a proper parallel. And hinging your arguments on a failure to reflect a parallel that it isn't even trying to model is like saying toasters are bad appliances because they don't make ice cream.

No they're trying to imitate guilds which are even more brutal to their competitors. As you say THREE of your Dragonmarked Houses employ assassins. There are likely no modern unions that do. And again given the anachronism in the setting...

There's competition that exists in-setting. The Aurum provides banking services (lines of credit, etc) to its members, which competes with House Kundarak. The people of the Eldeen Reaches wouldn't rely on the Raincallers Guild of House Lyrandar for help with their crops, they'd go to gleaners or druids native to the area. Any adventuring party that takes monetary payment for a job is essentially competing with House Deneith's mercenaries. Hell, there's another House competing with them, because House Tharashk (humans and half orcs, Mark of Finding) is the one supplying monstrous mercenaries from Droaam (ogres, minotaurs, gnolls, etc). House Cannith doesn't have an actual monopoly on the craft of artificers, as evidenced by the fact that elemental binding techniques are exclusive to the gnomes of Zilargo (who stole the technique from the drow of Xen'drik). Things like Airships, the Lightning Rail, and so on, are the result of collaboration between Cannith, Zilargo, and the respective House that operates the equipment.

Yes, which is likely to make the Dragonmarked houses MORE anti-competitive, not less. I think that you could benefit from study on how this sort of things works in the real world before discussing it in this context. When you have a near total monopoly you can get away with allowing small fry. When you have actual competitors you no longer can.

So...again...nothing stops a PC from doing anything. Even if they provide a quality service identical to a House in an area where that House has influence, the most likely scenario is being lauded by the House and getting them as patrons.

I don't think we've been saying "stops a PC from doing something" only severely constrains the PC. Also "getting them as patrons" is likely to be an offer where refusal leads to said assassins being employed. Which isn't agency. That's the players being forced into house politics. Which is part of the setting.

RedMage125

2024-05-14, 12:12 PM

No they're trying to imitate guilds which are even more brutal to their competitors. As you say THREE of your Dragonmarked Houses employ assassins. There are likely no modern unions that do. And again given the anachronism in the setting...
The Houses are composed of actual families that operate several guilds. There are usually about 3 or so family bloodlines within each House. But you're also seriously overlooking the differences here that make Eberron what it is beyond IRL comparisons. Even in arenas which have competition, they have a supernatural edge. They know they can provide services no one else can, or better ones. It doesn't hurt them to lose a few customers to competitors, because they believe eventually, those customers are going to experience a drop in quality if they do so, and that word will spread. If Kundarak Bank loses has a noble family or two close their accounts because they'd rather bank with the Aurum, the House can afford to play the long game. The Aurum doesn't have as many magical resources as Kundarak does. They can't create extradimensional safety deposit boxes that can be accessed across Khorvaire, for example. The House doesn't need to brutally oppress the competition, because they have the edge.

Now, if almost every noble family in Wroat suddenly stops banking with them to join the Aurum, that's a horse of a different color. Kundarak would almost certainly employ people to rob the Aurum to showcase how much better their own security systems are, or take other steps. But that's also a much larger scope than what we're talking about.

And 2 of those 3 Houses that have assassins are the Shadow Houses. All but maybe a dozen or so people on the whole continent think all they do is Arts & Entertainment, but their real business is espionage. That's a huge secret. It's not like it's even known that they employ assassins. And the 3rd I'm basing off a prestige class for the Mark of Hospitality called "Black Dog", which is a small organization within House Ghallanda. IIRC, most of the House doesn't even know or believe they exist. The PrC allows a dragonmarked user to transfer the poison from a vial they are holding magically into food or drink they can see. But that doesn't mean "assassination" is by any means a common method. And House members have no special protections from the law, either.

Yes, which is likely to make the Dragonmarked houses MORE anti-competitive, not less. I think that you could benefit from study on how this sort of things works in the real world before discussing it in this context. When you have a near total monopoly you can get away with allowing small fry. When you have actual competitors you no longer can.
This is more of the same. You're overlooking that even with areas where they have competition, the Houses have an edge they KNOW others cannot match. So "competition" that actually demonstrates their superiority only helps their own reputation. If the Windwrights Guild (air and sea shipping) has significantly faster vessels (by binding and controlling water elementals to the keel and air elementals behind the sails), then a customer who employs non-Guild merchant shipping is going to have longer delivery time. Not to mention slower vessels may not be able to outrun sahuagin raiders or Lhazaar pirates. Being able to say "sorry about your luck, you should have paid extra for Lyrandar services" serves the House as a whole better than crushing or absorbing every competing merchant company.
There's an elitism there, too. Other services may be cheaper, but "you get what you pay for". The Houses are undeniably at the top of the pole with regard to the services they provide. And allowing inferior competitors to continue to operate only justifies their own pricing.

With regard to the services related to the use of their actual dragonmarks, they DO have monopolies. And that's actually where you're wrong again. Because THAT would trigger more action from them. If, for example, someone showed up with an airship that didn't require the Mark of Storm to pilot, House Lyrandar would immediately be involved. They probably won't send assassins, but someone reasonably high in the hierarchy of the House will be very invested, especially if such a creation has the potential to be mass-produced. But we're talking about PCs here, and it seems unlikely that the focus of an adventure is engaging in R&D, development, the banal details of production, and then merchant shipping. And even if it were, sabotage is still way more likely than assassination. OTOH, if the PCs acquire some unique kind of airship, and they're only using it for transportation, the House will likely be satisfied with some sort of legally binding contract that they won't use it to interfere or compete with House business, and that will be the end of it.

Irrespective of the real world similarities, I'm clearly more familiar with the intricacies of Eberron than you are. And you might benefit from actually reading on the subject we're actually discussing before discussing it in this context. The 3.5e book "Dragonmarked" is an amazing resource for this. There's also been tons of articles written by Keith Baker (which is at least "Kanon", if not canon) on some of these exact issues. All of which I have read.

I don't think we've been saying "stops a PC from doing something" only severely constrains the PC. Also "getting them as patrons" is likely to be an offer where refusal leads to said assassins being employed. Which isn't agency. That's the players being forced into house politics. Which is part of the setting.

All this stemmed from me replying to Snowbluff, who actually did say (exact quote) "I really don't like overbearing guild systems that monopolize an aspect of the setting. It creates a very constricted setting where player characters are only allow to do X thing if they belong to Y faction." So yes, actually, that was being said, and you appeared to concur when you started contradicting me. So, you'll forgive me if my perception of you saying this now feels like you backpedaling. Especially because your first reply to me seemed to imply that even one PC doing things in a House's wheelhouse would result in immediate opposition from the House.

Refusal of such a thing would probably not involve assassination attempts. In Eberron, that would be more likely to be the result of messing with a nation's interests. The Royal Eyes of Aundaire, the King's Dark Lanterns of Breland, and King Kaius III of Karrnath (I forget if they have a name for their espionage service) are all WAY more likely to send assassins after someone. Not to mention the Inspired of Sarlona (controlled in turn by the Dreaming Dark), the Lords of Dust, Cults of the Dragon Below, Daelkyr Cults...all of these are way more likely to use murder as a tool.

The Houses, OTOH, are always looking to advance and improve themselves. If the PCs come up with a new way of doing something, the Houses will most likely want in. And if they refuse to work with them, corporate espionage is the most likely tool. They'll find a way to copy what the PC did, and then use their resources and collaboration with the Twelve to do it better and cheaper. And if the PC has a problem, well...they had their chance to work WITH the House, but chose not to, right? The idea that you think the House leaders are somehow out there, eager to murder people who have the talent and ingenuity to help the House improve is baffling.

Troacctid

2024-05-14, 01:34 PM

But we're talking about PCs here, and it seems unlikely that the focus of an adventure is engaging in R&D, development, the banal details of production, and then merchant shipping. And even if it were, sabotage is still way more likely than assassination.
I want to add to this—the fact that there is a force in the setting who might have a reason to oppose these things is good if you want to center your campaign around things like R&D and shipping logistics, because without some kind of antagonistic force, that campaign can't exist! Like, that's kind of how these things work, right? Stories need conflict! You can't tell a story about a scrappy underdog small business fighting against the odds to triumph over a monopolistic corporation if you don't have a monopolistic corporation trying to muscle them out.

RedMage125

2024-05-14, 02:36 PM

I want to add to this—the fact that there is a force in the setting who might have a reason to oppose these things is good if you want to center your campaign around things like R&D and shipping logistics, because without some kind of antagonistic force, that campaign can't exist! Like, that's kind of how these things work, right? Stories need conflict! You can't tell a story about a scrappy underdog small business fighting against the odds to triumph over a monopolistic corporation if you don't have a monopolistic corporation trying to muscle them out.

I mean...I agree, but I don't feel D&D would be the best system to use for such a campaign. It sounds like it could be a lot of fun, but some other system would have more of the kind of nuance and detail in the mechanics that would better serve.

My point to him remains that these are captains of magical industry, not cabals of megalomaniac looking for excuses to murder people.

TaiLiu

2024-05-14, 05:10 PM

I don't actually agree with that. At least not from what I'm reading from baker. Also I don't think he's baker has that much experience with unions and that kind of environment. It's a common thing where the author of a setting doesn't really know enough about something when they're putting it in there to understand the nuances of it.

The thing is it in real life unions and guilds how they operate isn't by crushing the competition it's by convincing the wealthy and powerful only to make deals with the union or guild. Like the way we get market share is by convincing people that going with us is the best path and that makes other companies and people outside of our organization not nearly as strong. Basically in an area that's controlled by a guild it would be very hard to start a business if you weren't part of the guild because nobody wants to be seen doing business with you.

Edit: it's also important to note that having a setting focused on unions or guilds is not a negative. It's just something that means that it's not universally as good for all campaigns. But that's not necessarily something you want on a campaign setting you might want a campaign setting that tells a particular kind of story that's more niche.
Barring a more rigorous argument about the history of guilds and why Eberron's Houses map onto them, I'm not sure we have much to argue about. We just disagree with each other.

Having been part of a union for a couple of years, I guess it's vaguely the case that we were "crushing the competition" (by having all workers be part of the union) and "convincing the wealthy and powerful only to make deals with the union" (our bosses had to negotiate with our union). I'm not sure that's the most useful way to describe what unions do, though.

Not being knowledgeable about the medieval guild system in parts of Europe, I defer to your superior expertise. It's not clear to me that Eberron's Houses is usefully mapped onto the medieval guild system, though. You're arguing that the Houses are incoherent cuz they should be working like guilds but don't. But I think that's backwards. Since the Houses don't work like medieval guilds, the historical reasoning about the guilds doesn't apply to the Houses.

I guess I agree, but I'm not sure anyone's argued that a guild system is a universal good for all campaigns.

Yes, this. But there's also canon (not just Kanon) examples as well.
Oo. Appreciate the examples.

Comprehensible to humans? It is possible, although due to the different nature of the mechanism, the result would probably be more like rapid-fire Morse code than anything else, and it would likely require hearing aids (puny human ears are laughably bad at picking up the frequencies that TRULY matter).
Neat. :smallsmile:

AMFV

2024-05-14, 06:57 PM

Barring a more rigorous argument about the history of guilds and why Eberron's Houses map onto them, I'm not sure we have much to argue about. We just disagree with each other.

Having been part of a union for a couple of years, I guess it's vaguely the case that we were "crushing the competition" (by having all workers be part of the union) and "convincing the wealthy and powerful only to make deals with the union" (our bosses had to negotiate with our union). I'm not sure that's the most useful way to describe what unions do, though.

It's pretty useful in the context that was described by the initial person with the issue with the system. Which was "if the PCs want to interact with this element meaningfully then they're going to be dealing with guilds. It's worth noting that I am a very pro union piledriver with more than two years in the union. But if somebody were to try to start a non-union piledriving company in my area there'd be problems for them and we're not the strongest area. I've also spent a lot of time talking to organizers.

The problem is that "having all members be part of the union" is really going to damage player agency. Not that that's always a bad thing, but it's worth considering as a thing. It is not something you can brush under the rug and be playing in Eberron. Let me put it that way.

Not being knowledgeable about the medieval guild system in parts of Europe, I defer to your superior expertise. It's not clear to me that Eberron's Houses is usefully mapped onto the medieval guild system, though. You're arguing that the Houses are incoherent cuz they should be working like guilds but don't. But I think that's backwards. Since the Houses don't work like medieval guilds, the historical reasoning about the guilds doesn't apply to the Houses.

It's possible I have framed my point poorly. My point is that the way that the guilds are described they would function like this. As was pointed out they literally have assassins on payroll that's about as extreme anticompetition as you could ever get. My argument is that both the way they are framed and the way their relationships are implied is more like a medieval guild or a union than might be referenced in a "Kanon" interview.

RedMage125

2024-05-15, 04:14 PM

It's pretty useful in the context that was described by the initial person with the issue with the system. Which was "if the PCs want to interact with this element meaningfully then they're going to be dealing with guilds. It's worth noting that I am a very pro union piledriver with more than two years in the union. But if somebody were to try to start a non-union piledriving company in my area there'd be problems for them and we're not the strongest area. I've also spent a lot of time talking to organizers.

The problem is that "having all members be part of the union" is really going to damage player agency. Not that that's always a bad thing, but it's worth considering as a thing. It is not something you can brush under the rug and be playing in Eberron. Let me put it that way.
The problem is that you jumped into a conversation where I was telling another poster "No, you don't actually have to be part of the [House]", and you squared up and told me I was wrong.

It's possible I have framed my point poorly. My point is that the way that the guilds are described they would function like this. As was pointed out they literally have assassins on payroll that's about as extreme anticompetition as you could ever get. My argument is that both the way they are framed and the way their relationships are implied is more like a medieval guild or a union than might be referenced in a "Kanon" interview.

The point that people more familiar with Eberron than you have pointed out is that they're described as much different than the guilds you describe.

And yes, some of the Houses have assassins on payroll. That doesn't mean they're sending them out there to murder competitors. 2 of those 3 have assassins that are just for hire by clients (and even having spies and assassins is a secret). And I didn't remember the details of the 3rd, so I looked it up, and this is what I found:
House Ghallanda is known far and wide for its spacious boarding houses, excellent food and providing the joys of home to weary travelers. They are also known for their stanch neutrality on many political matters, preferring not to get involved in situations that do not directly affect their house. Thus, on more than one occasion, warlords, crime lords and villains of the most vile sort also visit the hotels of House Ghallanda and get served just as well as more upstanding folk. For the halflings of the house, so long as the cardinal rule of 'Take It Outside' is obeyed, a patron's gold is worth more than their reputation. But, this does not sit well with every member of the house.

Officially denounced by House Ghallanda, the black dogs are a rogue part of the family line, taking their aptitude for food and drink and being unnoticed and using it to poison 'guests that have outstayed their welcome'. Using their dragonmark abilities in this manner, they are secretive and effective. Most of the time, the black dog is not even in the same hotel by the time the poison begins to set in. They try to use this method of vigilante justice to punish or cripple those that are guilty of war crimes, but occasionally, a black dog becomes obsessed with 'punishing' anyone that has slighted him or his kind.
So...safe to say that House isn't sanctioning assassinations.

So...once again...on the ACTUAL subject of discussion (which is the Houses in Eberron, not real world guilds), you are wrong.

AMFV

2024-05-15, 07:15 PM

The problem is that you jumped into a conversation where I was telling another poster "No, you don't actually have to be part of the [House]", and you squared up and told me I was wrong.

The point that people more familiar with Eberron than you have pointed out is that they're described as much different than the guilds you describe.

And yes, some of the Houses have assassins on payroll. That doesn't mean they're sending them out there to murder competitors. 2 of those 3 have assassins that are just for hire by clients (and even having spies and assassins is a secret). And I didn't remember the details of the 3rd, so I looked it up, and this is what I found:
House Ghallanda is known far and wide for its spacious boarding houses, excellent food and providing the joys of home to weary travelers. They are also known for their stanch neutrality on many political matters, preferring not to get involved in situations that do not directly affect their house. Thus, on more than one occasion, warlords, crime lords and villains of the most vile sort also visit the hotels of House Ghallanda and get served just as well as more upstanding folk. For the halflings of the house, so long as the cardinal rule of 'Take It Outside' is obeyed, a patron's gold is worth more than their reputation. But, this does not sit well with every member of the house.

Officially denounced by House Ghallanda, the black dogs are a rogue part of the family line, taking their aptitude for food and drink and being unnoticed and using it to poison 'guests that have outstayed their welcome'. Using their dragonmark abilities in this manner, they are secretive and effective. Most of the time, the black dog is not even in the same hotel by the time the poison begins to set in. They try to use this method of vigilante justice to punish or cripple those that are guilty of war crimes, but occasionally, a black dog becomes obsessed with 'punishing' anyone that has slighted him or his kind.
So...safe to say that House isn't sanctioning assassinations.

So...once again...on the ACTUAL subject of discussion (which is the Houses in Eberron, not real world guilds), you are wrong.

You realize that POLITICAL neutrality is not actually relevant to the subject being discussing, right?

Edit: and yes you are on a fundamental level wrong. If you are playing in ever on and you're playing with the subject matter with which the guilds interact then the guild are going to be a fundamental major part of that adventure unless you are basically playing in eberron as window dressing.

Edit 2: and it's not inherently a bad thing that the setting has certain elements that are really going to crop up. If you're playing in dark Sun you're obviously going to have some element of desert survival going on. You're going to have a really bleak Outlook. You want a setting that presents itself in that way

RedMage125

2024-05-15, 10:47 PM

You realize that POLITICAL neutrality is not actually relevant to the subject being discussing, right?
You realize the quote also says "warlords, crime lords and villains of the most vile sort also visit the hotels of House Ghallanda and get served just as well as more upstanding folk."...which means their neutrality is more widespread, and thus focusing solely on "political neutrality" means your condescending tone is grossly misplaced, right?

If you're going to come at me, come correct, or stay in your lane.

Edit: and yes you are on a fundamental level wrong. If you are playing in ever on and you're playing with the subject matter with which the guilds interact then the guild are going to be a fundamental major part of that adventure unless you are basically playing in eberron as window dressing.
Since we're talking about a subject I'm clearly more well versed in than you are (Eberron and the dragonmarked houses), and I'm the only one of us who's brought any kind of citation to the conversation...I'm just fine ignoring your empty declaration that "I'm wrong" as the impotent sputterings of someone who just can't admit when they've been bested.

I have addressed, several times now, how the Houses are likely to respond, based on Canon sources and Keith Baker's published writings. I've never said they "weren't going to be a major part" of such a thing. I simply shut down your declaration that their response would be "join us or we send assassins" (to paraphrase what you've been saying for the last several posts).

Edit 2: and it's not inherently a bad thing that the setting has certain elements that are really going to crop up. If you're playing in dark Sun you're obviously going to have some element of desert survival going on. You're going to have a really bleak Outlook. You want a setting that presents itself in that way

And Eberron has plenty of material to contribute to a "pulp/noir" kind of setting, in the same way Athas is "post-apocalyptic survival". There are even plenty of ways in which the Dragonmarked Houses can be villainous. House Vadalis may be engaging in illegal humanoid experimentation. Factions within House Cannith are still developing new warforged, as well as improving weapons of mass destruction. House Kundarak may be keeping the true king of Karrnath imprisoned in Dreadhold. But what you've been positing isn't supported by Canon or Kanon.

I'm not saying that a DM couldn't implement that and make an interesting game out of it. Every DM should make the setting their own. And I've actually said several times now that a DM could change that for their campaign. But as far as what the facts of the defaults of the setting as they are in the text...you're simply off-base. The Houses have not, in any canon source, simply engaged in assassination to wipe out competition. Some form of non-House competition exists for almost all of their businesses*. The Houses simply rely on their (deserved) reputation for excellence, and provide the best. You're in greater danger of assassination attempts from any of the other factions I mentioned (which you declined to respond to). Even if such an attempt were carried out by one of the Shadow Houses, it would likely be because they were contracted by another individual (which would have to be one of the dozen or so individuals in Khorvaire who even know they provide such services, a very short list). Not due to competition with House interests. Seriously, those Houses run the Arts & Entertainment guilds. Unless you're actually implying that the most likely targets for assassination under your supposition are sculptors, painters, singers, dancers, and actors?

*Barring services which actually require a dragonmark, such as airship piloting, use of speaking stones, those extradimensional deposit boxes, magebred animals, etc.

AMFV

2024-05-18, 10:26 AM

You realize the quote also says "warlords, crime lords and villains of the most vile sort also visit the hotels of House Ghallanda and get served just as well as more upstanding folk."...which means their neutrality is more widespread, and thus focusing solely on "political neutrality" means your condescending tone is grossly misplaced, right?

If you're going to come at me, come correct, or stay in your lane.

That is STILL POLITICAL NEUTRALITY. You have no idea what you are talking about here and aren't even responding to my points. You have as was pointed out earlier left the area where you have actual experience and are being really disingenuous. You're also not responding to arguments I'm making.

Since we're talking about a subject I'm clearly more well versed in than you are (Eberron and the dragonmarked houses), and I'm the only one of us who's brought any kind of citation to the conversation...I'm just fine ignoring your empty declaration that "I'm wrong" as the impotent sputterings of someone who just can't admit when they've been bested.

I have addressed, several times now, how the Houses are likely to respond, based on Canon sources and Keith Baker's published writings. I've never said they "weren't going to be a major part" of such a thing. I simply shut down your declaration that their response would be "join us or we send assassins" (to paraphrase what you've been saying for the last several posts).

Broh, read my posts or don't respond. Period. If you aren't going to read what I've written why would I spend one iota of time on you. I never declared that. I didn't even imply that. If by paraphrase you mean "lie about what the other person is saying" then I don't see how you could even be intending to have a conversation. What you are doing is "fanboy defense" coming in to tell somebody that their complaint about a setting is invalid on a technicality and then getting really huffy when people have any kind of dispute. To the point where you are adding irrelevant stuff and literally lying about what people talking are saying. That's completely disrespectful. And uncalled for. I don't let people get away with that crap without calling them out. If you're going to respond to me I'd like if you actually understand what I'm alleging. And next time you consider "paraphrasing" maybe reread for comprehension first instead of with bias.

RedMage125

2024-05-18, 12:39 PM

That is STILL POLITICAL NEUTRALITY. You have no idea what you are talking about here and aren't even responding to my points. You have as was pointed out earlier left the area where you have actual experience and are being really disingenuous. You're also not responding to arguments I'm making.

Broh, read my posts or don't respond. Period. If you aren't going to read what I've written why would I spend one iota of time on you. I never declared that. I didn't even imply that. If by paraphrase you mean "lie about what the other person is saying" then I don't see how you could even be intending to have a conversation. What you are doing is "fanboy defense" coming in to tell somebody that their complaint about a setting is invalid on a technicality and then getting really huffy when people have any kind of dispute. To the point where you are adding irrelevant stuff and literally lying about what people talking are saying. That's completely disrespectful. And uncalled for. I don't let people get away with that crap without calling them out. If you're going to respond to me I'd like if you actually understand what I'm alleging. And next time you consider "paraphrasing" maybe reread for comprehension first instead of with bias.

You mistake "I reject and am arguing against the founding premise upon which you have built your points" with "I haven't read what you are writing".

I responded to a different poster about alleging that the dragonmarked houses and their guilds are a constraint on what PCs can even do. You jumped in and started in about parallels with real world unions and guilds, using that as basis for telling me that I'm wrong. I have -several times- pointed out that they're not attempting to parallel those things, so that's a false corollary. At that point, it doesn't matter how succinct, detailed, or "correct" you are about unions or guilds, because what you're saying about the Dragonmarked Houses is wrong. They don't model those behaviors in canon (or Kanon) sources. Constructing an argument is like constructing a building, if the foundation is not level, then no matter how square to the foundation the building is, it will not be level. I see no need to comment on the walls, ceilings, or buttresses when the foundation is already shown to be askew.

As far as what you "never declared"...

Also "getting them as patrons" is likely to be an offer where refusal leads to said assassins being employed. Which isn't agency. That's the players being forced into house politics. Which is part of the setting.
And this...

As was pointed out they literally have assassins on payroll that's about as extreme anticompetition as you could ever get.

So, you're just going to blatantly lie, and act like you're calling me out? And even call me a liar? Hypocrisy doesn't look good on anyone.

You have even misrepresented what OTHER posters have been saying, going as far as to claim that what Snowbluff said in the very post that started this tangent "wasn't being said". It was said, I responded to that, and when you jumped in and claimed I was wrong, it is entirely a valid perception of mine to assume you are defending that statement. I get that you are not, now. But understand the perception you create.

You've also made points about "how the Houses are presented", coming from an uninformed position. I have corrected that, multiple times. If what you're saying about how they are presented is wrong, then using that incorrect presentation to make a correlation to guilds and unions is also wrong, isn't it? There is no need to address whether or not you are correct about real world guilds or unions, because the correlating factors to the actual topic at hand were incorrect.

Don't mistake my refusal to elucidate on the incorrect conclusions you have drawn with a disingenuous refusal to address you. I have been pointing out flaws in your founding assumptions (e.g. the foundation), and you continue to only try to build more rooms onto the building, and accuse me of not addressing them. The parallels you are attempting to draw are canonically incorrect.

atemu1234

2024-05-18, 04:18 PM

Forgive me for being out of the loop here, but what is "kanon" and how is it related to canon?

RedMage125

2024-05-18, 04:50 PM

Forgive me for being out of the loop here, but what is "kanon" and how is it related to canon?

Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, writes more for the setting that what got published in official books. So stuff he wrote that isn't official is referred to as "kanon".

AMFV

2024-05-18, 07:20 PM

You mistake "I reject and am arguing against the founding premise upon which you have built your points" with "I haven't read what you are writing".

I responded to a different poster about alleging that the dragonmarked houses and their guilds are a constraint on what PCs can even do. You jumped in and started in about parallels with real world unions and guilds, using that as basis for telling me that I'm wrong. I have -several times- pointed out that they're not attempting to parallel those things, so that's a false corollary. At that point, it doesn't matter how succinct, detailed, or "correct" you are about unions or guilds, because what you're saying about the Dragonmarked Houses is wrong. They don't model those behaviors in canon (or Kanon) sources. Constructing an argument is like constructing a building, if the foundation is not level, then no matter how square to the foundation the building is, it will not be level. I see no need to comment on the walls, ceilings, or buttresses when the foundation is already shown to be askew.

As far as what you "never declared"...

And this...

So, you're just going to blatantly lie, and act like you're calling me out? And even call me a liar? Hypocrisy doesn't look good on anyone.

You have even misrepresented what OTHER posters have been saying, going as far as to claim that what Snowbluff said in the very post that started this tangent "wasn't being said". It was said, I responded to that, and when you jumped in and claimed I was wrong, it is entirely a valid perception of mine to assume you are defending that statement. I get that you are not, now. But understand the perception you create.

You've also made points about "how the Houses are presented", coming from an uninformed position. I have corrected that, multiple times. If what you're saying about how they are presented is wrong, then using that incorrect presentation to make a correlation to guilds and unions is also wrong, isn't it? There is no need to address whether or not you are correct about real world guilds or unions, because the correlating factors to the actual topic at hand were incorrect.

Don't mistake my refusal to elucidate on the incorrect conclusions you have drawn with a disingenuous refusal to address you. I have been pointing out flaws in your founding assumptions (e.g. the foundation), and you continue to only try to build more rooms onto the building, and accuse me of not addressing them. The parallels you are attempting to draw are canonically incorrect.

Reread the posts you quoted. They don't say what you paraphrased. In fact they don't even imply that.

Edit: Look I get that Eberron is a perfect setting that can work for anything... No wait it's not, it's a very focused niche setting that does it's niche extremely well.

Edit 2: In any case you are performing an extremely uncharitable reading of other people's statements you are not an objective person here I think we're done, I won't be responding to further commentary on this. You have not been reading what I have been posting and have just generally acted in very poor faith. The guild system in Eberron is one of the setting's strengths. But it is correct that if you are going to deal with Mercenaries you'll have to deal with the appropriate house. If you're dealing with banking you'll be dealing with Kundarak, even if you're not a part of that house. That's part of the setting. Don't pretend it's not.

Ramza00

2024-05-18, 08:56 PM

Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, writes more for the setting that what got published in official books. So stuff he wrote that isn't official is referred to as "kanon".

isn’t that confusing with the other words with that spelling and similar spelling?

atemu1234

2024-05-18, 09:27 PM

isn’t that confusing with the other words with that spelling and similar spelling?
Being fair, there's a ton of overlap in similar terms and acronyms that breed confusion, within D&D and just life in general; context is key.

RedMage125

2024-05-19, 02:06 AM

Reread the posts you quoted. They don't say what you paraphrased. In fact they don't even imply that.
You literally said that refusing an invitation to join would result in assassination in the first one. And in the second referred to the existence of assassins as being proof of them being "anticompetition".

And now you think that you "didn't even imply" that the Houses use assassins to target competitors, or those who refuse to join them. Are you lacking that much self-awareness of what you type?

Your cognitive dissonance is staggering.

Edit: Look I get that Eberron is a perfect setting that can work for anything... No wait it's not, it's a very focused niche setting that does it's niche extremely well.
I never implied anything of the sort. Eberron isn't everyone's cup of tea, as this thread has shown. And it has its flaws, certainly. I don't even run Eberron that much, I usually prefer my home setting, which more closely resembles FR or Greyhawk. But I was clearing up a misconception posted by someone other than you, and you decided to jump in spouting all kinds of non-factual statements and assertions, and got combatative with me when I told you so.

Edit 2: In any case you are performing an extremely uncharitable reading of other people's statements you are not an objective person here I think we're done, I won't be responding to further commentary on this. You have not been reading what I have been posting and have just generally acted in very poor faith. The guild system in Eberron is one of the setting's strengths. But it is correct that if you are going to deal with Mercenaries you'll have to deal with the appropriate house. If you're dealing with banking you'll be dealing with Kundarak, even if you're not a part of that house. That's part of the setting. Don't pretend it's not.

So, completely unrelated to this thread, I was re-reading an older thread from several years ago, and realized you're the same person who was being contentious in that thread. And then, just like now, you have devised -completely irrespective of any source material based in official text in print- your own set of "givens" for the foundation of discussion (in this case, you've decided that Eberron's Dragonmarked Houses model real world historical guilds and unions, especially in terms of anti-competition). And no matter how much people show you that your founding assumptions are incorrect, you refuse to address that, refuse to be open to actual discourse, and simply regurgitate your own pontificating over and over. Which means it is you who is not discussing in good faith. Your poor behavior here is symptomatic of your own myopic arrogance, and you're incredibly rude and condescending, which you take zero accountability for. Even with this last post, you affect an injured, affronted tone, as if to gather up your shawl and leave in an offended huff, thinking perhaps that by presenting as a victim, you should be awarded some sort of social merit. Victimhood isn't currency, and anyone who treats it like it is deserves to be left in the intellectual cold while everyone else gets to go about their day. Enjoy whatever sympathy your imagined victimhood nets you, and I hope it makes you happy.

Now, for thers following this discussion, they should know that you're also just grossly incorrect. Not only was a quote from Keith Baker provided mentioning non-House mercenary companies, but they exist in canon, as well, because there’s one in the second published module, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade (they attack on the lightning rail). The Aurum, an organization made up of wealthy individuals who are explicitly trying to break the overwhelming power of The Twelve (the organization of the dragonmarled houses), explicitly, in canon, provided banking services to the members of their various concords. This isn't "pretending" anything. These are facts of the setting in canon, and you are just dead wrong.

I will say that the way the setting uses the Houses and their influence to create companies and services which cross national boundaries is one of the strengths of the setting, yes. It allows for interesting stories, especially those connected to intrigue (whether that's intrigue between the Houses, or providing segues for intrigue between nations). So nestled deep in between your self-martyring and your continued untruths, you have finally said something accurate.

Pugwampy

2024-05-19, 08:15 AM

I dont like the Eberron Pantheon in my players handbook 3.5 edition . Everyone i knew played Forgotten realms including computer games .

The authors could have added 2 or 3 more Pantheons for different world settings . Not saying every last Faerun God but about as much as Eberron .

Or if you gonna add in Eberron Gods exclusively you might as well have also added a Map of Eberron . Might have motivated more players to try an Eberron setting .

AnonJr

2024-05-19, 09:08 AM

Everyone i knew played Forgotten realms including computer games.

I sometimes wonder if that is really the key. Getting back into D&D, Eberron was the setting my group used almost exclusively. (though one DM would occasionally throw in some Dark Sun) So I played a lot of Eberron over the years. I find Forgotten Realms as confusing and odd as some find Eberron, and tend to eschew it outside of playing some classic PC games.

glass

2024-05-19, 09:20 AM

I dont like the Eberron Pantheon in my players handbook 3.5 edition??????

The only pantheon in the 3.5 PHB is the kinda-sorta-Greyhawk pantheon that was "default D&D" in those days. Eberron did not even exist in 2003 when the 3.5 PHB came out.

Tzardok

2024-05-19, 09:34 AM

??????

The only pantheon in the 3.5 PHB is the kinda-sorta-Greyhawk pantheon that was "default D&D" in those days. Eberron did not even exist in 2003 when the 3.5 PHB came out.

This is already the second time that guy claimed that the Standard Pantheon were the Eberron gods in this thread. I corrected him before on page 1.

AnonJr

2024-05-19, 11:04 AM

Tzardok

2024-05-19, 11:18 AM

I'd taken his comments to refer to the 3.5 Eberron Campaign setting, just poorly phrased...
He claimed St. Cuthbert was an Eberron deity:

I was ducky imprinted onto forgotton realms . Lots more Novels and computer games. Seems more fleshed out and more book supported . My original group only used Faerun .

I know almost nothing about Eberron .
I would not object to playing or DM ing that world

But i think St Cuthbert is the worst name for a deity ever.

glass

2024-05-19, 11:45 AM

I'd taken his comments to refer to the 3.5 Eberron Campaign setting, just poorly phrased...But the Eberron deities being in the Eberron book would be a really weird complaint.

Bartmanhomer

2024-05-19, 12:16 PM

I've never played Eberron but is the campaign that horrible

glass

2024-05-19, 12:22 PM

I've never played Eberron but is the campaign that horribleNo. It wasn't to everyone's taste, and some people seem really invested in hating it. But it isn't "horrible".

Bartmanhomer

2024-05-19, 12:26 PM

No. It wasn't to everyone's taste, and some people seem really invested in hating it. But it isn't "horrible".

Ok, fair enough then. I wouldn't mind playing Eberron then. :smile:

RedMage125

2024-05-19, 12:38 PM

I've never played Eberron but is the campaign that horrible

In a lot of ways, it's radically different from most of Core.

There's a lot of everyday magic in the setting, to the point of having trains and airships, and magic lighting in large cities. This is facilitated by special marks called Dragonmarks that appear on certain families. A century-long war that reshaped national lines just ended 2 years before campaign start, so it's a world trying to rebuild.

The races are different than expected. Goblinoids once had a great empire that collapsed before humans colonized the continent, so they're a common sight (and may be a good player race option). Aside from the elves that live among other races, in their homelands, they come in 2 flavors: Death Obsessed Necromancers, and War-loving nomads, who are still attacking their neighbors. Meanwhile, the first humanoids to be taught druidic magic (to combat aberrations in the distant past) were orcs. So orcs are the tree-hugging hippies, and elves are the bloodthirsty horde. Halflings in one major city run the mafia, but in their homelands, they're dinosaur-riding barbarians.

And there's new races. A race of living Constructs, created to fight in that war, who have just been granted personhood. Changelings, who have a shape-shifting power. Shifters, bestial humanoids superficially similar to lycanthropes, and kalashstar, a psionic race.

That's just a few elements. The setting also divorces alignment stereotypes from all non-outsider creatures, so a Red Dragon is just as likely to be Lawful Good as Chaotic Evil.

But yeah...some people don't want magic trains, or races that differ from standard archetypes. Some (as seen in this thread) disliked warforged. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

Bartmanhomer

2024-05-19, 12:41 PM

In a lot of ways, it's radically different from most of Core.

There's a lot of everyday magic in the setting, to the point of having trains and airships, and magic lighting in large cities. This is facilitated by special marks called Dragonmarks that appear on certain families. A century-long war that reshaped national lines just ended 2 years before campaign start, so it's a world trying to rebuild.

The races are different than expected. Goblinoids once had a great empire that collapsed before humans colonized the continent, so they're a common sight (and may be a good player race option). Aside from the elves that live among other races, in their homelands, they come in 2 flavors: Death Obsessed Necromancers, and War-loving nomads, who are still attacking their neighbors. Meanwhile, the first humanoids to be taught druidic magic (to combat aberrations in the distant past) were orcs. So orcs are the tree-hugging hippies, and elves are the bloodthirsty horde. Halflings in one major city run the mafia, but in their homelands, they're dinosaur-riding barbarians.

And there's new races. A race of living Constructs, created to fight in that war, who have just been granted personhood. Changelings, who have a shape-shifting power. Shifters, bestial humanoids superficially similar to lycanthropes, and kalashstar, a psionic race.

That's just a few elements. The setting also divorces alignment stereotypes from all non-outsider creatures, so a Red Dragon is just as likely to be Lawful Good as Chaotic Evil.

But yeah...some people don't want magic trains, or races that differ from standard archetypes. Some (as seen in this thread) disliked warforged. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

I see. But still I'm very open-minded to Ebberon. Maybe someday I could play this campaign. :biggrin:

Pugwampy

2024-05-19, 02:23 PM

This is already the second time that guy claimed that the Standard Pantheon were the Eberron gods in this thread. I corrected him before on page 1.

Sorry my bad . I always assumed greyhawk and eberron were the same .

I stand corrected.

RedMage125

2024-05-19, 04:42 PM

Sorry my bad . I always assumed greyhawk and eberron were the same .

I stand corrected.

That's okay. Being open to correction is the path to wisdom, and if you're interested in Eberron (like, if some of the things I mentioned in my last post intrigue you), plenty of people will be happy to help you dip your toe in the waters.

TaiLiu

2024-05-20, 05:36 PM

It's pretty useful in the context that was described by the initial person with the issue with the system. Which was "if the PCs want to interact with this element meaningfully then they're going to be dealing with guilds. It's worth noting that I am a very pro union piledriver with more than two years in the union. But if somebody were to try to start a non-union piledriving company in my area there'd be problems for them and we're not the strongest area. I've also spent a lot of time talking to organizers.

The problem is that "having all members be part of the union" is really going to damage player agency. Not that that's always a bad thing, but it's worth considering as a thing. It is not something you can brush under the rug and be playing in Eberron. Let me put it that way.
Like banking or postal or continent-wide transportation? If you're on Khorvaire, sure. Depending on how your DM characterizes the Houses, the Houses and your interactions with them will take on a different character. I think it's totally legit for a DM to run the Houses like the post or the train or the bank in real life—not something that most of us think deeply about, but embedded in our lives. They're the background while the party concerns themselves with other matters.

Could you clarify what you mean by the Houses damaging player agency? I've played in Eberron before, and the setting definitely doesn't feel like it damages agency. Instead, the specificity and richness of the setting does the opposite. It feels like there's an abundance of options that I can use to change things.

As an aside: I think we have divergent experiences with unions. I'm honestly not sure what you even mean by "there'd be problems for them." Like, are you gonna beat them up? And why would you? The other business isn't my problem, it's my boss's. It's a labor union, not a co-op.

It's possible I have framed my point poorly. My point is that the way that the guilds are described they would function like this. As was pointed out they literally have assassins on payroll that's about as extreme anticompetition as you could ever get. My argument is that both the way they are framed and the way their relationships are implied is more like a medieval guild or a union than might be referenced in a "Kanon" interview.

And yes, some of the Houses have assassins on payroll. That doesn't mean they're sending them out there to murder competitors. 2 of those 3 have assassins that are just for hire by clients (and even having spies and assassins is a secret).
Yeah, exactly. As for the former point: Barring a richer historical argument, we're just gonna continue going yeah-huh and nuh-uh back and forth. The Houses don't feel to me like they're suffering from internal contradictions. But I also dunno the history of medieval guilds very well.

Look I get that Eberron is a perfect setting that can work for anything... No wait it's not, it's a very focused niche setting that does it's niche extremely well.
I don't think it is. I think it's quite broad. That's one of the reasons it was selected for 3e's setting competition and why WOTC is willing to bring it back for new editions of D&D. You can run your urban fantasy games in Sharn, your cowboy games in Q'barra, your pirate games in the Lhazaar Principalities. Go splunking for Giantish treasure in Xen'drik. Be part of the resistance in Sarlona. Visit the Mournland, and try not to die...

Eberron is opinionated, so it's not the perfect setting and it can't work for everything. It's not broad enough to be a kitchen sink setting, but it's also not as thematically niche as a setting like Dark Sun. I think it sits comfortably in the middle.

I've never played Eberron but is the campaign that horrible
Eberron is my favorite setting. I think it's great. You should look into it. There's a lot of cool dragon lore in the setting.

There's a hypothesis that the Sovereign Host (the biggest religion in Eberron) is composed of dragons, former dragons, or was inspired by particular dragons.

The creation myth of Eberron says that the world is composed of the bodies of three dragons. The underworld is Khyber, the dragon below. It's coiled beneath Eberron, the dragon between. And wrapped around Eberron is a beautiful golden ring: the fragments of Siberys, the dragon above.

Bartmanhomer

2024-05-20, 05:51 PM

Eberron is my favorite setting. I think it's great. You should look into it. There's a lot of cool dragon lore in the setting.

There's a hypothesis that the Sovereign Host (the biggest religion in Eberron) is composed of dragons, former dragons, or was inspired by particular dragons.

The creation myth of Eberron says that the world is composed of the bodies of three dragons. The underworld is Khyber, the dragon below. It's coiled beneath Eberron, the dragon between. And wrapped around Eberron is a beautiful golden ring: the fragments of Siberys, the dragon above.

Cool. Thanks, friend. I'll look into it

TaiLiu

2024-05-20, 06:52 PM

Cool. Thanks, friend. I'll look into it
Yay! I hope you like what you find. :smallsmile:

Bartmanhomer

2024-05-20, 08:34 PM

Yay! I hope you like what you find. :smallsmile:

Trust me. I will. :smile:

pumpkaaboo

2024-05-21, 10:09 AM

I'm a pretty big fan of Eberron, and have been ever since I heard about it. I like the alternative takes on things, I like that wizards are less important, I like that the technology level seems much more well-suited to a world which has as much magic as the D&D sourcebooks contain. But there is one thing that's always bugged me: shifters. Specifically, the artwork of shifters.

See, the thing is, story and theme-wise, shifters seem laser-targeted at the kind of person who liked to run around on the playground pretending to be a wolf/cat/etc in elementary school. But the artwork of them just... does not appeal to that fantasy at all (source: I was one of those kids). It feels like the artists and/or people giving design notes to those artists were so terrified of being called furries that they just made the shifters into slightly oddly-proportioned humans. Which... I mean, fair enough, the internet tends to be absolutely vicious towards furries, especially back then. But it means that I'm left without a solid mental image for one of the signature features of the setting, because I refuse to accept most of the artwork we have.

To be clear, it's only the visual designs that really bother me. I think the lore behind shifters and their relationship to the broader mythology of the setting is really cool, and the whole Silver Flame crusade thing is... fine enough for what it is, if a little boring.

I usually just imagine them with a full-on Tokyo Mew Mew-esque magical girl transformation and leave it at that, no matter how jarring it looks in comparison to everything else, because at least it looks better and is a better fit for the fantasy than the artwork that exists.

Psyren

2024-05-21, 01:26 PM

Yeah, I would love it if Shifters actually looked like anthropomorphs / borderline lycanthropes rather than hairy humans with bad dentistry and nails.

Tzardok

2024-05-21, 02:41 PM

Could you clarify what you mean by the Houses damaging player agency? I've played in Eberron before, and the setting definitely doesn't feel like it damages agency. Instead, the specificity and richness of the setting does the opposite. It feels like there's an abundance of options that I can use to change things.

This complaint about "limiting player agency" reminds me of similiar complaints I heard about Forgotten Realms and its very active and involved gods. Sometimes I wonder if some players simply don't like settings to have anything more powerful than their characters that isn't intended to be one day defeated. But maybe that's polemic of me.

There's a hypothesis that the Sovereign Host (the biggest religion in Eberron) is composed of dragons, former dragons, or was inspired by particular dragons.

The creation myth of Eberron says that the world is composed of the bodies of three dragons. The underworld is Khyber, the dragon below. It's coiled beneath Eberron, the dragon between. And wrapped around Eberron is a beautiful golden ring: the fragments of Siberys, the dragon above.

Divine dragons. The easiest way to get Bartmanhomer's attention. :smalltongue:

TaiLiu

2024-05-21, 04:44 PM

Trust me. I will. :smile:
:smallsmile:

But there is one thing that's always bugged me: shifters. Specifically, the artwork of shifters.

Yeah, I would love it if Shifters actually looked like anthropomorphs / borderline lycanthropes rather than hairy humans with bad dentistry and nails.
For sure. I'm playing a shifter right now and it kinda does feel like playing a hairy human. What's the point of them getting confused for werecreatures if they don't get to look cool like them?

This complaint about "limiting player agency" reminds me of similiar complaints I heard about Forgotten Realms and its very active and involved gods. Sometimes I wonder if some players simply don't like settings to have anything more powerful than their characters that isn't intended to be one day defeated. But maybe that's polemic of me.
To be honest, I don't really enjoy the super involved gods of the FR. Maybe this makes me a hypocrite.

Divine dragons. The easiest way to get Bartmanhomer's attention. :smalltongue:
And no wonder. Divine dragons are cool. :smallcool:

RedMage125

2024-05-21, 07:54 PM

Like banking or postal or continent-wide transportation? If you're on Khorvaire, sure. Depending on how your DM characterizes the Houses, the Houses and your interactions with them will take on a different character. I think it's totally legit for a DM to run the Houses like the post or the train or the bank in real life—not something that most of us think deeply about, but embedded in our lives. They're the background while the party concerns themselves with other matters.
That's a very common take, unless intrigue with the Houses is part of the storyline.

Could you clarify what you mean by the Houses damaging player agency? I've played in Eberron before, and the setting definitely doesn't feel like it damages agency. Instead, the specificity and richness of the setting does the opposite. It feels like there's an abundance of options that I can use to change things.
This is a great deal like what I was saying. AMFV, however, has decided that the Houses are parallels for historical guilds and unions and all the anti-competition implied thereof. And since he's decided that, he's only going to bring to a discussion the assumption that such is already "true", and anyone who disagrees is just wrong, and "not debating in good faith".

As an aside: I think we have divergent experiences with unions. I'm honestly not sure what you even mean by "there'd be problems for them." Like, are you gonna beat them up? And why would you? The other business isn't my problem, it's my boss's. It's a labor union, not a co-op.
What I took from that post was that the big guild or union would make problems for the smaller competitors.

Yeah, exactly. As for the former point: Barring a richer historical argument, we're just gonna continue going yeah-huh and nuh-uh back and forth. The Houses don't feel to me like they're suffering from internal contradictions. But I also dunno the history of medieval guilds very well.
Mine knowledge of them is rusty, but they're also not really relevant, because the Houses don't parallel to them well.
The Dragonmarked Houses have supernatural abilities that let them completely corner niche markets they've created (airship travel, speaking stones, lightning rail, magical purification of food and drink, etc). The other businesses they're involved in do, in canon, have competition. But the Houses can provide guarantees smaller businesses cannot.
I'm taking AMFV's statements about historical guilds at face value to be true, because my knowledge isn't that expansive. But those same things he said show why the Houses don't parallel well. He said in the things they ACTUALLY had monopolies on, they'd be less inclined to stomp out competition. And it's the other way around in Eberron. An airship that didn't require a mark of storm would draw MORE House Lyrandar attention than a competing merchant ship company, not less.

I don't think it is. I think it's quite broad. That's one of the reasons it was selected for 3e's setting competition and why WOTC is willing to bring it back for new editions of D&D. You can run your urban fantasy games in Sharn, your cowboy games in Q'barra, your pirate games in the Lhazaar Principalities. Go splunking for Giantish treasure in Xen'drik. Be part of the resistance in Sarlona. Visit the Mournland, and try not to die...

Eberron is opinionated, so it's not the perfect setting and it can't work for everything. It's not broad enough to be a kitchen sink setting, but it's also not as thematically niche as a setting like Dark Sun. I think it sits comfortably in the middle.
I sit somewhere between the two. I think Eberron is great for pulp adventure, mystery, intrigue, noir, and things like that. In some ways more so than more "classic" settings like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. But I don't think it lends itself to high-fantasy as well as those settings, either. Sure, you could have typical dungeon delving in Eberron. But to me, what makes the setting great would be the consequences of even bringing that loot out (angering the Dhakaani, perhaps weakening a Gatekeeper seal, attracting the attention of the Chamber, etc).

Eberron is my favorite setting. I think it's great. You should look into it. There's a lot of cool dragon lore in the setting.

There's a hypothesis that the Sovereign Host (the biggest religion in Eberron) is composed of dragons, former dragons, or was inspired by particular dragons.

The creation myth of Eberron says that the world is composed of the bodies of three dragons. The underworld is Khyber, the dragon below. It's coiled beneath Eberron, the dragon between. And wrapped around Eberron is a beautiful golden ring: the fragments of Siberys, the dragon above.
I love that when you look at the Draconic depictions of all the Sovereigns and Six (15 in total), you don't have all the classic dragons. You're missing a gold one...but the Keeper is depicted as a skeletal dragon...

But there is one thing that's always bugged me: shifters. Specifically, the artwork of shifters.

I get this complaint, too. I feel like some of the earliest artwork for shifters was better than what came after. The iconic Shifter wizard in the ECS looks amazing. A lot of following art...not so much.

This complaint about "limiting player agency" reminds me of similiar complaints I heard about Forgotten Realms and its very active and involved gods. Sometimes I wonder if some players simply don't like settings to have anything more powerful than their characters that isn't intended to be one day defeated. But maybe that's polemic of me.

That's one of my complaints with FR as a setting. I feel like the pantheon is TOO involved and omnipresent. Sometimes it felt like what was going on between the gods was the only conflict that mattered.

5e has tried to tone that down with the deities being less involved since the Sundering. Not as many Chosen and avatars running around.

RedWarlock

2024-05-22, 01:45 AM

MonochromeTiger

2024-05-22, 10:49 AM

This complaint about "limiting player agency" reminds me of similiar complaints I heard about Forgotten Realms and its very active and involved gods. Sometimes I wonder if some players simply don't like settings to have anything more powerful than their characters that isn't intended to be one day defeated. But maybe that's polemic of me.

To be honest, I don't really enjoy the super involved gods of the FR. Maybe this makes me a hypocrite.

Personally the issue of limiting player agency is more with the Draconic Prophecy side of things, for much the same reason as "super involved Gods" in Forgotten Realms. When everything you do has a good chance of turning out to be just a chess move by some super powerful entity you've never met and don't even personally matter to you don't really have as much room to feel accomplishment or agency.

The way things are written you could spend half a campaign off on some tangent completely unrelated to the actual plot and still no matter what you do the setting has an NPC sweeping in to announce "all according to plan" or revealing they set you on that path as something entirely in line with how the setting works. Intrigue and conspiracy work best when the people involved are still people, when they can be surprised and thrown off; the Draconic Prophecy isn't that, it's a bunch of people playing 6d future-sight hyper-chess where your party are just the pawns in a game to set up the pawns in another game with the real winners and losers being distant and unassailable cabals you might be able to strike at the most expendable or overextended members of at best.

I liked the visual for Shifters, if they'd just been furries, catgirls, or dog-eared anime-inspired critters, I'd have rejected them immediately.

To my thought, they're the same feral human archetype as X-Men's Wolverine, Sabertooth, and the WoD Werewolf Glabro/Dalu near-human.

Can you guys point out what you would rather have seen with examples? (Maybe this could be another thread, I'd love to see more in this vein.)

There's avoiding "too animalistic" then there's "just an Elf with hirsutism and some dental issues." When I think of someone whose whole thing is being somewhere between Human and Lycanthrope I expect the latter to be a much stronger influence than the former due to how extreme it is, especially if it's supposed to be enough of a similarity for them to actually be caught up in the Silver Flame's crusades against Lycanthropes. As it is the similarities are an informed trait at best and they could practically pass for shorter Bugbears with a lighter frame and arguably be treated better in several places; all it would really take is not "moving like an animal."

Basically I'm not saying they should look like anthropomorphic animals, I get why the artists would want to avoid the "furry" label especially back when all of this was new, but they went so far in the other direction I'm struggling to see what's so special about Shifters. They aren't supposed to be just "feral Human", they're supposed to be a hybrid of Human and Lycanthrope and it's hard to believe that when, using one of your examples, they share an aesthetic with Wolverine from the X-Men who typically is just a person with large sideburns and a bit of body hair.

Fizban

2024-05-22, 05:48 PM

Even in arenas which have competition, they have a supernatural edge.
Coming back to the thread, this is where I'd jump back in: do they? Standard city NPC generation produces higher level NPCs of the core base classes equally (and both dragonmarks and PC-classes need higher levels for more Significant effects). If we include all 16 entries on the table (which includes warrior/expert/adept/commoner), 1/4 of those are full casters (cleric/druid/sor/wiz), which is the same ratio as the 1/4 of people who have dragonmarks.

But there are 12 dragonmarks, while each of those PC-classed NPC's spell lists can invalidate multiple dragonmarks simultaneously and more frequently. So while there are 1/12 of X high level people people who have a given mark, there are anywhere from say 1/4 to 3/4 who can beat that mark with actual spellcasting.

Thus, the only way the houses have a supernatural edge, is in the proliferation of 1st level marks (which can already be super cheap magic items and are barely Significant if at all), and. . . if they also just so happen to have collected all the high level spellcasters who could duplicate their marks. And sure, it's in their best interest to recruit, and one can say that them being the richest and most stable are likely to be generating those classed NPCs anyway, but mechanically the Dragonmarks aren't doing jack. It's a facade that looks like a Significant mechanical integration, but doesn't actually do the thing.

As an aside: I think we have divergent experiences with unions.
(This quote used for recency)

Regarding guilds and unions: don't forget that these things vary *massively* by location. Medieval European guilds were basically ruthless monopolies, but the industrial revolution basically destroyed all sorts of old craft monopolies that formed those guilds. These are replaced by more modern corporations where the job literally cannot be done without the corporation's industrial setup, while the workers have no power. Enter unionization, where the workers employ collective bargaining to take back some power by presenting a united front. And as with any human system, unions can then snowball and take over and become overbearing and corrupt themselves, gaining an effective monopoly (from the labor side rather than the material side, and then possibly taking ownership of the material anyway) and crushing all threats both real and perceived the same way a guild or corporation can. The history and current status of any of this varies wildly by country and region, and making any absolute statements or current real-world examples is instantly political, because literally anything a government can influence (so, anything) is political.

The Dragonmarked houses are not unions. They are either guilds (where entry requires among other things long apprenticeships and power can often be effectively hereditary since the family gets in for free), or more modern corporate franchises (which control satellite members via "franchising", letting them use the name as long as they pay for it and adhere to standards), or both. It's much more a guild system to start, with what sounds like added franchising aspects to cover for the inconsistencies with an "industrialized" setting. But they are not unions.

isn’t that confusing with the other words with that spelling and similar spelling?
There is no word spelled "kanon" in English (not that I've heard of or a quick dictionary search found).

Could you clarify what you mean by the Houses damaging player agency? I've played in Eberron before, and the setting definitely doesn't feel like it damages agency. Instead, the specificity and richness of the setting does the opposite. It feels like there's an abundance of options that I can use to change things.
Your experience doesn't really count for anyone else, because any actual game has to be run by a DM. And while you and your DMs may perceive the setting as not being constrictive in that way, others clearly do.

Based on your response to my previous breakdown, I think it's pretty clear you're more roleplay/narrative focused. You find the setting freeing because it says there are all these cool things that give you an abundance of options. But from a ground-up mechanical perspective, it's the opposite: the setting does not match the mechanics given, and the presence of Word of God hereditary monopolies on every industry means that anyone who doesn't want to follow that mold is immediately in conflict with the setting itself.

This complaint about "limiting player agency" reminds me of similiar complaints I heard about Forgotten Realms and its very active and involved gods. Sometimes I wonder if some players simply don't like settings to have anything more powerful than their characters that isn't intended to be one day defeated. But maybe that's polemic of me.
Indeed. Any setting that's more than a map is about established powers, the bigger and more detailed the setting, the more established powers. If you want maximum freedom, then anything more than an absolute lawless wild west frontier is going to chafe. FR has so many established powers, going all the way up the power level to epic and godly, that many people feel their characters don't matter and can't change anything.

On the flipside, without established powers there's no justification for anything aside from ruined dungeons and random encounters, and established powers let players integrate their characters with and feel like part of the world/setting by working with or nominally opposing those established powers. Which the problem is, the game doesn't actually need such justification. It's built for fighting monsters in 'dungeons' and random encounters. You're not supposed to be fighting classed NPCs as a significant portion, and the game breaks worse and worse the more you do.

Like, let's take the example. You've got a group of players who want to interact with the houses and guilds, and you think that's okay, that they're not unstoppable monopolies that crush everything. So, how does that game go? These are classed humanoid organizations, full of people that are either much lower or much higher level than the PCs. What encounters does that game have? How do you take DnD's dungeoneering (monster fighting) combat mechanics, and make them work when the force opposing them is not appropriately leveled or monsters?

Even if Eberron's guilds aren't suffocating, which depends on DM reading, mechanically they still don't work as something the PCs interact with. They're written as backdrop for pulpy adventures, and they can perform that function (poorly as far as I'm concerned), but anything the DM wants to do with them besides that is. . . make something up.

Prime32

2024-05-22, 07:49 PM

I liked the visual for Shifters, if they'd just been furries, catgirls, or dog-eared anime-inspired critters, I'd have rejected them immediately.

To my thought, they're the same feral human archetype as X-Men's Wolverine, Sabertooth, and the WoD Werewolf Glabro/Dalu near-human.
They literally have a feat called "Healing Factor" in the ECS. :smalltongue:

Ironically a bunch of Japanese settings handle things in the opposite way - making lycanthropes the product of "savage humans with funny ears" beastmen interbreeding with humans. (Regular beastmen exist in a state of spiritual equilibrium between man and beast, but for hybrids their human side normally suppresses their beastly traits until some trigger causes them to burst out like a flood.)

There's avoiding "too animalistic" then there's "just an Elf with hirsutism and some dental issues." When I think of someone whose whole thing is being somewhere between Human and Lycanthrope I expect the latter to be a much stronger influence than the former due to how extreme it is, especially if it's supposed to be enough of a similarity for them to actually be caught up in the Silver Flame's crusades against Lycanthropes. As it is the similarities are an informed trait at best and they could practically pass for shorter Bugbears with a lighter frame and arguably be treated better in several places; all it would really take is not "moving like an animal."

Basically I'm not saying they should look like anthropomorphic animals, I get why the artists would want to avoid the "furry" label especially back when all of this was new, but they went so far in the other direction I'm struggling to see what's so special about Shifters. They aren't supposed to be just "feral Human", they're supposed to be a hybrid of Human and Lycanthrope and it's hard to believe that when, using one of your examples, they share an aesthetic with Wolverine from the X-Men who typically is just a person with large sideburns and a bit of body hair.
Their ancestors aren't anthro animals, they're humans who can turn into animals and retain a few beastly traits in human form. So shifters inherit the beastly traits and can turn about 10% into a non-specific animal.

The Purge kicked off when a lunar alignment caused lycanthropy to become hyper-infectious, with even afflicted lycanthropes going berserk and infecting others. Note that infecting someone with lycanthropy forcibly changes their alignment, which is generally seen as heinous even done for the cause of good. This combined with hybrid form lycanthropes having a strong resemblance to rakshasa, who were actively spreading misinformation in order to lure Flamists into fear and zealotry. The exact distinction between a shifter and a carrier of the demonic mindrape virus was not entirely clear; even if you were well-informed on shifter biology, it was hard to completely rule out the idea that they could get "activated" some day like the afflicted lycanthropes had.

pumpkaaboo

2024-05-22, 10:21 PM

Can you guys point out what you would rather have seen with examples? (Maybe this could be another thread, I'd love to see more in this vein.)

My problem is that I can't exactly think of what I would have rather seen, I just know it isn't that. The closest to what I'd imagine their shifted forms looking like would probably be the Zonai from Tears of the Kingdom, but even that's a little closer to the furry end than I'd like for them. Or maybe a cleaned-up version of the middle stage of the transformation shown on the covers of Animorphs books, or Catra from the 2018 She-Ra. Actually Catra is probably the best fit, she still looks 90% human but with enough recognizably "cat" features to clearly evoke the idea of what she's meant to represent.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot this, but the orcs from Dungeon Meshi are another great example, probably for beasthide shifters. And of course, Izutsumi is another Catra-like take on the catgirl that could work well. Dungeon Meshi has some of my favorite takes on fantasy races in general.

In terms of actual published artwork, the closest to what I imagine is the... uh... I don't have my book on me, I think it's a wildhunt shifter? In Rising from the Last War.

It's interesting that you bring up Wolverine, because I think you're probably entirely correct that the art was meant to invoke the Wolverine archetype. It's just that due to personal preference, I really really do not like the visuals of Wolverine. To each their own, I suppose. But my other problem with it is that shifters are supposed to, well, shift. And going from "human" to "slightly burlier and hairier human" is not that dramatic of a transformation.

MonochromeTiger

2024-05-22, 10:55 PM

Their ancestors aren't anthro animals, they're humans who can turn into animals and retain a few beastly traits in human form. So shifters inherit the beastly traits and can turn about 10% into a non-specific animal.

This doesn't change the issue that, at least for me, thinking "beastly traits" doesn't make me just go "they have a bit more body hair I guess." And considering the hybrid form that comes to mind for Lycanthropes tends to be far more bestial than anything that comes to mind for Shifters that only makes the fact that they could pass for yet another type of Elf or Goblinoid more jarring. It's holding up a character race and saying "yeah these guys carry obvious signs of being descended from people to turn into Wolves and Sharks and Bears" then when asked what those obvious signs are getting "they look like they haven't shaved and their teeth and nails are a bit long."

The Purge kicked off when a lunar alignment caused lycanthropy to become hyper-infectious, with even afflicted lycanthropes going berserk and infecting others. Note that infecting someone with lycanthropy forcibly changes their alignment, which is generally seen as heinous even done for the cause of good. This combined with hybrid form lycanthropes having a strong resemblance to rakshasa, who were actively spreading misinformation in order to lure Flamists into fear and zealotry. The exact distinction between a shifter and a carrier of the demonic mindrape virus was not entirely clear; even if you were well-informed on shifter biology, it was hard to completely rule out the idea that they could get "activated" some day like the afflicted lycanthropes had.

I get the in universe reasoning. What I find questionable is that, the visual distinctions being as loose as they are, all of this didn't somehow spin off into something even more extensive than "these guys who look like they have more in common with about 50 other races are singled out as being Lycanthrope-spawn especially by people who have a poor understanding of their nature that implies they have nothing to go off of but looks."

As it stands either the Silver Flame paused their zealotry long enough to become way more discerning then just as quickly abandoned that as soon as they put away their "is this a Shifter" checklist to keep up their attempted genocide or I'm missing some visuals from the art that make Shifters stand out as related to Lycanthropes way more than they actually do.

RedMage125

2024-05-23, 02:49 AM

I get the in universe reasoning. What I find questionable is that, the visual distinctions being as loose as they are, all of this didn't somehow spin off into something even more extensive than "these guys who look like they have more in common with about 50 other races are singled out as being Lycanthrope-spawn especially by people who have a poor understanding of their nature that implies they have nothing to go off of but looks."

As it stands either the Silver Flame paused their zealotry long enough to become way more discerning then just as quickly abandoned that as soon as they put away their "is this a Shifter" checklist to keep up their attempted genocide or I'm missing some visuals from the art that make Shifters stand out as related to Lycanthropes way more than they actually do.

It's a little more complicated than that. Shifters emigrated with humans to Khorvaire from Sarlona. People knew for hundreds of years what a Shifter was. And the actual Church of the Silver Flame absolutely knew. But the Church wasn't the one actually persecuting Shifters.

Aundair and the Eldeen Reaches got hit with the worst of that increased lycanthropy epidemic (probably due to proximity to the source of The Wild Heart's power). When the crusaders of the CotSF demonstrated the power to deal with supernatural threats, those people were eager to embrace their saviors and that faith. Problem is, they viewed the Flame only as a weapon. And they were scared. And paranoid. They formed what is now called the Pure Flame sect. And it was they who targeted Shifters. And it wasn't just because of how they looked, but also due to the physiological changes when Shifters actually use their Shifting trait. Elongation of jaws/teeth, more pronounced claws...these things were too eerily similar to lycanthropes when they transform. On top of all this, many of the evil lycanthropes (wererats in particular) were sowing seeds of mistrust in populated areas, and laying false trails and framing these innocent Shifters. And the Pure Flame zealots? They didn't have the training to understand the difference. They didn't have the deep and abiding dedication to protecting the innocent that the core CotSF did. They lynched and burned innocent Shifters, and claimed they did it in the name of the Silver Flame. But the CotSF always condemned those actions.

TaiLiu

2024-05-24, 05:19 PM

That's a very common take, unless intrigue with the Houses is part of the storyline.

This is a great deal like what I was saying. AMFV, however, has decided that the Houses are parallels for historical guilds and unions and all the anti-competition implied thereof. And since he's decided that, he's only going to bring to a discussion the assumption that such is already "true", and anyone who disagrees is just wrong, and "not debating in good faith".

What I took from that post was that the big guild or union would make problems for the smaller competitors.

Mine knowledge of them is rusty, but they're also not really relevant, because the Houses don't parallel to them well.
The Dragonmarked Houses have supernatural abilities that let them completely corner niche markets they've created (airship travel, speaking stones, lightning rail, magical purification of food and drink, etc). The other businesses they're involved in do, in canon, have competition. But the Houses can provide guarantees smaller businesses cannot.
I'm taking AMFV's statements about historical guilds at face value to be true, because my knowledge isn't that expansive. But those same things he said show why the Houses don't parallel well. He said in the things they ACTUALLY had monopolies on, they'd be less inclined to stomp out competition. And it's the other way around in Eberron. An airship that didn't require a mark of storm would draw MORE House Lyrandar attention than a competing merchant ship company, not less.

I sit somewhere between the two. I think Eberron is great for pulp adventure, mystery, intrigue, noir, and things like that. In some ways more so than more "classic" settings like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. But I don't think it lends itself to high-fantasy as well as those settings, either. Sure, you could have typical dungeon delving in Eberron. But to me, what makes the setting great would be the consequences of even bringing that loot out (angering the Dhakaani, perhaps weakening a Gatekeeper seal, attracting the attention of the Chamber, etc).

I love that when you look at the Draconic depictions of all the Sovereigns and Six (15 in total), you don't have all the classic dragons. You're missing a gold one...but the Keeper is depicted as a skeletal dragon...
Yeah.

I'm gonna politely skip the commentary on AMFV.

Yeah, but like... What exactly does that mean? What would the union do?

Yeah, I'd broadly agree with this.

I guess you're right. Cuz, yeah, Khorvaire is terrible for high fantasy. There are places like Aerenal and Argonnessen that are bastions for high magics, so a high fantasy Eberron campaign is totally possible. But those are very specific places.

Oo, I never knew that.

Can you guys point out what you would rather have seen with examples? (Maybe this could be another thread, I'd love to see more in this vein.)
It sounds like what I would've preferred—they should be more animal-like—would be off-putting to you. Different preferences.

Personally the issue of limiting player agency is more with the Draconic Prophecy side of things, for much the same reason as "super involved Gods" in Forgotten Realms. When everything you do has a good chance of turning out to be just a chess move by some super powerful entity you've never met and don't even personally matter to you don't really have as much room to feel accomplishment or agency.

The way things are written you could spend half a campaign off on some tangent completely unrelated to the actual plot and still no matter what you do the setting has an NPC sweeping in to announce "all according to plan" or revealing they set you on that path as something entirely in line with how the setting works. Intrigue and conspiracy work best when the people involved are still people, when they can be surprised and thrown off; the Draconic Prophecy isn't that, it's a bunch of people playing 6d future-sight hyper-chess where your party are just the pawns in a game to set up the pawns in another game with the real winners and losers being distant and unassailable cabals you might be able to strike at the most expendable or overextended members of at best.
Oh, I see. You're right in that a DM totally could do that, but I disagree that that's something unique about Eberron or the Prophecy. Like, you could totally be a pawn of a super powerful entity in just about any setting.

In contrast, the Draconic Prophecy is something anyone could use—including the PCs. At the levels you're dealing with the prophecy players (groups like the Lords of Dust or the dragons of Argonnessen), you're also capable of manipulating events foretold in the Prophecy. That including being able to successfully disable those aforementioned distant cabals.

Regarding guilds and unions: don't forget that these things vary *massively* by location. Medieval European guilds were basically ruthless monopolies, but the industrial revolution basically destroyed all sorts of old craft monopolies that formed those guilds. These are replaced by more modern corporations where the job literally cannot be done without the corporation's industrial setup, while the workers have no power. Enter unionization, where the workers employ collective bargaining to take back some power by presenting a united front. And as with any human system, unions can then snowball and take over and become overbearing and corrupt themselves, gaining an effective monopoly (from the labor side rather than the material side, and then possibly taking ownership of the material anyway) and crushing all threats both real and perceived the same way a guild or corporation can. The history and current status of any of this varies wildly by country and region, and making any absolute statements or current real-world examples is instantly political, because literally anything a government can influence (so, anything) is political.

The Dragonmarked houses are not unions. They are either guilds (where entry requires among other things long apprenticeships and power can often be effectively hereditary since the family gets in for free), or more modern corporate franchises (which control satellite members via "franchising", letting them use the name as long as they pay for it and adhere to standards), or both. It's much more a guild system to start, with what sounds like added franchising aspects to cover for the inconsistencies with an "industrialized" setting. But they are not unions.

Your experience doesn't really count for anyone else, because any actual game has to be run by a DM. And while you and your DMs may perceive the setting as not being constrictive in that way, others clearly do.

Based on your response to my previous breakdown, I think it's pretty clear you're more roleplay/narrative focused. You find the setting freeing because it says there are all these cool things that give you an abundance of options. But from a ground-up mechanical perspective, it's the opposite: the setting does not match the mechanics given, and the presence of Word of God hereditary monopolies on every industry means that anyone who doesn't want to follow that mold is immediately in conflict with the setting itself.
I'm gonna politely skip the discussion about how much the Houses resemble guilds or unions, mostly cuz I don't have anything novel to say and mostly cuz it doesn't super interest me.

Yeah, of course. If they feel it's constrictive and therefore unpleasant to play in, that's their view and their choice.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about people who don't want to follow that mold. What mold? Why do we have to follow it?