Soulknife Ranger?

[Pooky the Imp]

I'm messing around with some ideas for a Ninja-type character.

I'd like to have a decent selection of tricks (whether in the form of abilities or utility spells). However, when in combat, I want the main focus to be on weapons, rather than spells (so probably not a full caster).

Rogue obviously gives some skills and mobility with Cunning Action (Sneak Attack also seems a good fit). I like the Soulknife because weapons that can kill a target without leaving a mark on their bodies seems very appropriate for a fantasy-Ninja.

The thing is, I don't find Rogue a very interesting class beyond the early levels. Apart from the 9th level Soulknife abilities, it feels like it largely runs out of tricks. Thus, my plan would be to switch to Ranger after Lv3.

In terms of Ranger subclasses, I'm thinking either Fey Wanderer or Swarmkeeper (I'm aware I'll have to speak to my DM Re. Extra Attack with Psychic Blades).

Tasha's Ranger in general gives some nice movement abilities, as well as some spells (possibly even Cantrips, if I go that route).


I guess what I'd like to know is whether this sounds like a viable build, or if I'll just be setting myself up for disappointment? :smalltongue:

Also, if it sounds viable, any thoughts regarding Feats or Spell Choices or other such?

[Oramac]

In 5e, damn near everything is viable. Not 100% optimal, perhaps, but absolutely viable. Personally, I think this sounds like a really fun character.

I think I'd lean towards Gloomstalker for thematic reasons. As for spells, since your Soulknife will be your primary means of dealing damage (both in melee and ranged), you can go for a lot of utility spells. Rangers don't get many spells, so you have to really dial in on your theme and goals for the character. I'd grab Hunter's Mark and Cure Wounds just because, and then a bunch of utility or crowd-control spells.

TBH, thinking about it, I kinda want to play this character now. Good idea!

EDIT: Also, if your DM is open to it, you could use the Rogue from the UA6 Playtest. We know already that Soulknife is going to be core for the 2024 PHB, and the UA6 rogue gets Cunning Strike, which adds a lot of versatility as well. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to play it that way considering the 2024 PHB is only a few months away.

[Psyren]

In terms of Ranger subclasses, I'm thinking either Fey Wanderer or Swarmkeeper (I'm aware I'll have to speak to my DM Re. Extra Attack with Psychic Blades).

Not sure what you mean by this, Extra Attack works fine with Psychic Blades.

I would go with Fey Wanderer over Swarmkeeper - less competition for your BA, and there is thematic synergy as well because Fey Wanderer deals psychic damage ("mind-scarring magic") too. Beguiling Twist also gives you a decent use for your reaction.

[Pooky the Imp]

Thanks for the feedback, both.


In 5e, damn near everything is viable. Not 100% optimal, perhaps, but absolutely viable. Personally, I think this sounds like a really fun character.

TBH, thinking about it, I kinda want to play this character now. Good idea!

Thanks. Glad it's not a stupid idea.

Hopefully it will be fun to play. :smallsmile:



I think I'd lean towards Gloomstalker for thematic reasons. As for spells, since your Soulknife will be your primary means of dealing damage (both in melee and ranged), you can go for a lot of utility spells. Rangers don't get many spells, so you have to really dial in on your theme and goals for the character. I'd grab Hunter's Mark and Cure Wounds just because, and then a bunch of utility or crowd-control spells.

Thanks for the advice. Gloomstalker is definitely another strong possibility.

Whichever subclass I go with, I'll look towards taking those two core spells.




EDIT: Also, if your DM is open to it, you could use the Rogue from the UA6 Playtest. We know already that Soulknife is going to be core for the 2024 PHB, and the UA6 rogue gets Cunning Strike, which adds a lot of versatility as well. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to play it that way considering the 2024 PHB is only a few months away.

I'm not sure my DM will go for it, but I'll look into the possibility.

Interesting to know that Soulknife will be core. I haven't been keeping up with the playtest material - do you know if it's largely the same, or if they're having another go at changing the mechanics for psionics?



Not sure what you mean by this, Extra Attack works fine with Psychic Blades.

I thought RAW you could only make a single attack with it because it only creates a single blade that vanishes after you attack? Or was it errata'd or FAQ'd at some point?



I would go with Fey Wanderer over Swarmkeeper - less competition for your BA, and there is thematic synergy as well because Fey Wanderer deals psychic damage ("mind-scarring magic") too. Beguiling Twist also gives you a decent use for your reaction.

All good points. Fey Wanderer also gives Misty Step, which is a spell I really want on a Ninja for the classic 'disappear in a puff of smoke.' :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

The thing is, I don't find Rogue a very interesting class beyond the early levels. Apart from the 9th level Soulknife abilities, it feels like it largely runs out of tricks. Thus, my plan would be to switch to Ranger after Lv3.
Yeah, I had the same idea, except I went Bard after three levels of Soulknife.


I guess what I'd like to know is whether this sounds like a viable build
Yes. Soulknife has solid combat damage and some of the best skill use in the game. Definitely viable.

[Psyren]

I thought RAW you could only make a single attack with it because it only creates a single blade that vanishes after you attack? Or was it errata'd or FAQ'd at some point?

They appear and vanish after any attack you make with the Attack action. Extra Attack uses the Attack action, so you get and lose a blade for as many attacks as you get, as long as you're using the Attack action. (What you can't do is, say, combine it with a bladetrip, or Multiattack.)

You also can't combine it with Reaction attacks, which is the Soulknife's biggest weakness (and which I hope they address in 2024.)

[Kane0]

Not gonna lie, this makes me want to make a Whispers Bard / Fey Wanderer / Soulknife just to stunt on bear totem barbarians.

[Rukelnikov]

They appear and vanish after any attack you make with the Attack action. Extra Attack uses the Attack action, so you get and lose a blade for as many attacks as you get, as long as you're using the Attack action. (What you can't do is, say, combine it with a bladetrip, or Multiattack.)

You also can't combine it with Reaction attacks, which is the Soulknife's biggest weakness (and which I hope they address in 2024.)

It's not so clear, it doesn't say when you attack it says:

"Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."

You only take the attack action once, and it doesn't say whenever you make an attack, so RAW, I think you only get to do 1 attack, and then it vanishes, otherwise the Bladesinger Soulknife (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630131-Breaking-the-Tasha-s-Bladesinger&p=25009712&highlight=soulknife#post25009712) gets truly broken.

[Psyren]

It's not so clear, it doesn't say when you attack it says:

"Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."

You only take the attack action once, and it doesn't say whenever you make an attack, so RAW, I think you only get to do 1 attack, and then it vanishes, otherwise the Bladesinger Soulknife (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630131-Breaking-the-Tasha-s-Bladesinger&p=25009712&highlight=soulknife#post25009712) gets truly broken.

The feature mentions "the attack" because that's usually all rogues get. There's nothing in there that stops Extra Attack working with it.

I'm not seeing the issue with Bladesinger, the same bladetrip errata that interferes with Shadow Blade interferes with Psychic Blades.

[Rukelnikov]

The feature mentions "the attack" because that's usually all rogues get. There's nothing in there that stops Extra Attack working with it.

I'm not seeing the issue with Bladesinger, the same bladetrip errata that interferes with Shadow Blade interferes with Psychic Blades.

There are features that say "whenever you do an attack you can do X", this one doesn't has that wording, by RAW it only works for one attack, assuming that it works on every attack because Rogues normally can't make more than one is not reading RAW.

[Oramac]

Interesting to know that Soulknife will be core. I haven't been keeping up with the playtest material - do you know if it's largely the same, or if they're having another go at changing the mechanics for psionics?

We don't know for sure. But they've said that they're giving everything a good review, so it's possible it'll change. I don't expect it to change a lot, but there's likely to be tweaks here and there.


Extra Attack

As a DM myself, I would allow it with the Soulknife. But the real takeaway here is: ask your DM.

[Psyren]

There are features that say "whenever you do an attack you can do X", this one doesn't has that wording, by RAW it only works for one attack, assuming that it works on every attack because Rogues normally can't make more than one is not reading RAW.

I disagree with your reading of RAW. There's nothing else to say beyond that.

[Skrum]

Yeah this sounds like a solid build!

I would would also recommend gloomstalker; they're honestly pretty ninja-y all on their own. Burst striking (assassination), additional movement, invisible to dark vision, spells; and that's just what they get at level 3.

I would strongly advise you take ranger first, up to 5. You'll get better weapon and armor proficiencies, and most importantly, you'll get extra attack as soon as possible. Rogue 3 cooks, rogue 3 ranger 1 you're gonna feel like a genius, rogue 3 ranger 2, 3 and 4 you're gonna want to kick yourself. Not getting extra attack till 8 and only having a 2d6 sneak attack, it's gonna be very underpowered.

[Rukelnikov]

I disagree with your reading of RAW. There's nothing else to say beyond that.

You can disagree, but you are still wrong

[Psyren]

You can disagree, but you are still wrong

No u :smallsigh:

Actually, let's forestall 40 pages of this, you can have the last word.

[Rukelnikov]

No u :smallsigh:

Actually, let's forestall 40 pages of this, you can have the last word.

At least I justify my reading, I'm providing an argument, you are the one saying "no its not" without giving any compelling reason.

[Pooky the Imp]

I would strongly advise you take ranger first, up to 5. You'll get better weapon and armor proficiencies, and most importantly, you'll get extra attack as soon as possible. Rogue 3 cooks, rogue 3 ranger 1 you're gonna feel like a genius, rogue 3 ranger 2, 3 and 4 you're gonna want to kick yourself. Not getting extra attack till 8 and only having a 2d6 sneak attack, it's gonna be very underpowered.

I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be better to at least start with 1 level of Rogue for the extra skill?

[Oramac]

I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be better to at least start with 1 level of Rogue for the extra skill?

Depends how important that skill is to you and the group. Personally, I would say that unless that extra skill is Perception, Investigation, or Insight, it's probably not worth it.

[JNAProductions]

Per RAW, it looks like you can only get one attack with the psychic blade.
Per how I'd rule, you can make every attack with it. Including AoOs, but most definitely all attacks on your turn.