Warlock powers in 3.5

[Gingernut]

Hello! Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, in Dungeons & Dragons 3.5e, warlocks works with magic the same way as other arcane casters - through touching the Weave. However, it is impossible not to notice the "dark" orientation of the warlock's invocations - all his magic refers to the Nine Hells or has a "dark" theme :smallfurious: . So, from lore's point of view, what is the source of the warlock's magic in the 3e? And how can a warlock with a good alignment have access to the dark magic of this class? Bring down all the power of lore and fluff on me, please, I need it right now! :smallsmile:

[AnonJr]

The Weave is very much a Forgotten Realms thing, not necessarily part of the entirety of D&D. Warlocks come out of the book Complete Arcane, and the source of their power is described as the result of pacts made with extraplanar creatures - either by themselves or someone earlier in their lineage.

The alignment is listed as any evil or any chaotic - so you could easily have a Chaotic Good Warlock. "Many" are supposed to be the result of pacts with devils, fiends, and other dark powers, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of a Warlock being a channel or having a pact with good or neutral extraplanar entities.

I've always wanted to play one, just never got around to it since there are other classes I love more.

[Inevitability]

Complete Mage page 6 lists a number of possible warlock power sources: demons and devils are one way, but fey and even slaadi and celestials also get mentioned. Basically, if it's an outsider or fey that commonly takes on Evil or Chaotic alignments, it's fair game.

[Darg]

There are 3 avenues for the sources of their power: being the descendant of a supernatural trafficker, forming a pact with a supernatural power, or simply being "chosen" as a conduit or tool. As for the source of magic, Complete Mage lists a few beings with the capability of granting a warlock's power ranging from evil to chaotic to good. "Dark" doesn't only mean "evil." It could also mean something likely to bring misfortune as well (hence chaotic).

[Metastachydium]

(Have I mentioned yet today how dumb I find the notion that LN Warlocks are impossible by RAW, whereas CG ones can just run around all day with Devil-themed ****? So unfair, so nonsensical.)

[Darg]

(Have I mentioned yet today how dumb I find the notion that LN Warlocks are impossible by RAW, whereas CG ones can just run around all day with Devil-themed ****? So unfair, so nonsensical.)

Like how there aren't any lawful barbarians and bards?

[Chronos]

Don't think of the Weave as a source of power: Power has all of the same sources in Faerun as it does in any D&D world, and the outer planes and powerful entities are a perfectly valid source of power. Rather, the Weave is what connects everything, and allows that power to be used.

[pabelfly]

(Have I mentioned yet today how dumb I find the notion that LN Warlocks are impossible by RAW, whereas CG ones can just run around all day with Devil-themed ****? So unfair, so nonsensical.)

I'm reading Complete Arcane and it says Warlocks are often Chaotic or Evil. To me, the word "often" means while it's generally the case, it doesn't necessitate that every Warlock has to be Chaotic or Evil.

[Darg]

I'm reading Complete Arcane and it says Warlocks are often Chaotic or Evil. To me, the word "often" means while it's generally the case, it doesn't necessitate that every Warlock has to be Chaotic or Evil.

The class itself requires being chaotic or evil to progress, like barbarian and bard needs to not be lawful.

[AnonJr]

(Have I mentioned yet today how dumb I find the notion that LN Warlocks are impossible by RAW, whereas CG ones can just run around all day with Devil-themed ****? So unfair, so nonsensical.)

It was always my assumption that the CG ones were from a different planar pact than the Devil-themed ones. I could see a Fae powered warlock being a very chaotic good type.

To that end, I do agree that there are likely in any campaign world Lawful powers that would make a deal and make some Lawful Warlocks. I always thought it would be better set like Clerics where you needed to be within one step of your pact source.

[Luccan]

It was always my assumption that the CG ones were from a different planar pact than the Devil-themed ones. I could see a Fae powered warlock being a very chaotic good type.

To that end, I do agree that there are likely in any campaign world Lawful powers that would make a deal and make some Lawful Warlocks. I always thought it would be better set like Clerics where you needed to be within one step of your pact source.

I've basically come to the conclusion that the alignment restrictions come down to one or both of these: either the designers for the class were operating under the interpretation that being chaotic was like being slightly evil or they wanted non-evil Warlocks to be actively trying to subvert their pacts

[Troacctid]

In case it helps, I wrote up a quick homebrew fix to mechanically represent different types of warlock origin.


Alternative Pacts

Level: 1st
Replaces: This benefit modifies the damage reduction class feature and the normal alignment restriction for the warlock class.
Benefit: Your arcane power reflects the patron that granted it. Depending on the source of your pact, you may have a different type of damage reduction and/or alignment.




Patron

Damage Reduction

Alignment


Celestial
DR/evil
Any good


Daelkyr
DR/byeshk
CN, CE, NE, or LE


Devil
DR/silver
Any nongood, nonchaotic


Elder Evil
DR/good
Any evil


Elemental
DR/magic, and
increase DR by 1
Any


Fey
DR/cold iron
Any


Deathless
DR/targath
Any nonevil


Demon
DR/cold iron
Any nongood, nonlawful


Yugoloth
DR/good
Any nongood





At your option, your invocations may also change to visually resemble the magic typically associated with your patron. For example, a celestial pact results in invocations that are bright and beautiful, while a pact with a fire elemental results in invocations that resemble flames, smoke, or lava. This change is purely cosmetic and has no mechanical effect.
It's extrapolated from the Dragon Magazine article that mentions changing the DR from cold iron to byeshk for warlocks with aberrant patrons.

[AnonJr]

Troacctid, that looks nice. I may have to copy that into my notebook of fun homebrews for future reference. :smallsmile:

[RedWarlock]

It's extrapolated from the Dragon Magazine article that mentions changing the DR from cold iron to byeshk for warlocks with aberrant patrons.

Do you remember the issue number there? I have most of the issues through that era, but I don't recall eberron-specific warlock advice, I ate that stuff up in the day.

[Troacctid]

Do you remember the issue number there? I have most of the issues through that era, but I don't recall eberron-specific warlock advice, I ate that stuff up in the day.
Dragon #332, "Touched by Madness".

[Metastachydium]

Like how there aren't any lawful barbarians and bards?

Well, yes, but no. I mean, given their signature ability ("Barbarians harness the power of strong emotions to turn into reckless engines of destruction!!"), they'd have the same problem as Warlocks if the developers then drew the "logical" conclusion that "therefore, they can be Lawful Good, but not Chaotic Neutral" (cf. the CG Warlcok spamming Devil's Sight and Swimming the Styx, which is as RAW as it gets).

Bards, on the other hand… I'll probably never get past the fact that it provides the perfect basis for building a Troubadour – until you realise that the intiricate and insanely Lawful social game termed as courtly love that the mindset of those revolves around meshes rather poorly with "Non-Lawful or get the heck out".


It was always my assumption that the CG ones were from a different planar pact than the Devil-themed ones. I could see a Fae powered warlock being a very chaotic good type.

To that end, I do agree that there are likely in any campaign world Lawful powers that would make a deal and make some Lawful Warlocks. I always thought it would be better set like Clerics where you needed to be within one step of your pact source.

That CG is an avauilable option is somewhat incongruous, given the flavour (and sometimes, nature) of Warlock abilities, but it doesn't bother me as much as, yeah, how a LE deity might, by RAW, have a LN Cleric or Favoured Soul as high in the church hierarchy as one pleases to place 'em, but LN Warlocks are somehow impoosible.


In case it helps, I wrote up a quick homebrew fix to mechanically represent different types of warlock origin.


It's extrapolated from the Dragon Magazine article that mentions changing the DR from cold iron to byeshk for warlocks with aberrant patrons.


Troacctid, that looks nice. I may have to copy that into my notebook of fun homebrews for future reference. :smallsmile:

Seconding that. This is very much appreciated.

[Darg]

Well, yes, but no. I mean, given their signature ability ("Barbarians harness the power of strong emotions to turn into reckless engines of destruction!!"), they'd have the same problem as Warlocks if the developers then drew the "logical" conclusion that "therefore, they can be Lawful Good, but not Chaotic Neutral" (cf. the CG Warlcok spamming Devil's Sight and Swimming the Styx, which is as RAW as it gets).

Bards, on the other hand… I'll probably never get past the fact that it provides the perfect basis for building a Troubadour – until you realise that the intiricate and insanely Lawful social game termed as courtly love that the mindset of those revolves around meshes rather poorly with "Non-Lawful or get the heck out".



That CG is an avauilable option is somewhat incongruous, given the flavour (and sometimes, nature) of Warlock abilities, but it doesn't bother me as much as, yeah, how a LE deity might, by RAW, have a LN Cleric or Favoured Soul as high in the church hierarchy as one pleases to place 'em, but LN Warlocks are somehow impoosible.

How do warlocks get their power? From some point where they or their ancestors bargained for or were randomly "chosen" as an instrument or tool from beings that want to use the warlock, ancestor, or bloodline for their own ends.

The point being that chaotic entities or evil ones are the only sources of power. The source of a warlock's power is more chaotic than a sorcerer's as a sorcerer can still learn spells from scrolls. There's a semblance of structure. Warlocks on the other hand can't even do that and much more about willing the power to take shape and that just isn't structured. It doesn’t make sense to you probably because you aren't seeing alignment as being real and instead as a concept.

[RedWarlock]

How do warlocks get their power? From some point where they or their ancestors bargained for or were randomly "chosen" as an instrument or tool from beings that want to use the warlock, ancestor, or bloodline for their own ends.

The point being that chaotic entities or evil ones are the only sources of power. The source of a warlock's power is more chaotic than a sorcerer's as a sorcerer can still learn spells from scrolls. There's a semblance of structure. Warlocks on the other hand can't even do that and much more about willing the power to take shape and that just isn't structured. It doesn’t make sense to you probably because you aren't seeing alignment as being real and instead as a concept.

Sorcerers in 3.5 don't have the ability to learn directly from scrolls, in the base rules. Not anywhere I've seen.

[Metastachydium]

Sorcerers in 3.5 don't have the ability to learn directly from scrolls, in the base rules. Not anywhere I've seen.

Yep. Their only way of expanding their repertoire beyond their standard allotment that I know of is taking that Extra Spell feat – which notably does have an equivalent for Warlocks.


How do warlocks get their power? From some point where they or their ancestors bargained for or were randomly "chosen" as an instrument or tool from beings that want to use the warlock, ancestor, or bloodline for their own ends.

The point being that chaotic entities or evil ones are the only sources of power. The source of a warlock's power is more chaotic than a sorcerer's as a sorcerer can still learn spells from scrolls. There's a semblance of structure. Warlocks on the other hand can't even do that and much more about willing the power to take shape and that just isn't structured. It doesn’t make sense to you probably because you aren't seeing alignment as being real and instead as a concept.

Well, the notion that a LN creature would never make such a pact or a LE entity would only choose to empower "Chaotic or Evil" creatures in such a way because alignment is real must be the oddest take on how Warlock elignment works I've ever seen.

[Darg]

Sorcerers in 3.5 don't have the ability to learn directly from scrolls, in the base rules. Not anywhere I've seen.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.


With the DM’s permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).

For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.

It's basically a thematic way for sorcerers and bards to learn spells not on the normal spell lists.

[RedMage125]

I've basically come to the conclusion that the alignment restrictions come down to one or both of these: either the designers for the class were operating under the interpretation that being chaotic was like being slightly evil or they wanted non-evil Warlocks to be actively trying to subvert their pacts

Close, the designers for the classes only envisioned very narrow archetypes for those classes.
Barbarians MUST be savage illiterate people from the edge of civilization. And rage can only be a surrender to wild and savage impulses, and being a disciplined person precludes that.
Monks can only be the wuxia martial artist archetype. Most of their powers come from "hours spent in meditation"
Bards were the worst ones, too. Their alignment restriction is allegedly due to "the spontaneous nature of their magic" (which is identical to how a Sorcerer casts spells) "and their lifestyle" (which is identical to every other adventurer).

Narrow focus of class design is what imposes these restrictions. And warlock was no exception.

[ShurikVch]

Like how there aren't any lawful barbarians and bards?
Actually, there are some lawful barbarians and bards:

Barbarians:
Theogrin Raablek (Complete Arcane) - LN Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1/Green Star Adept 3
(Also, Boromar, Jocomo "Jimmy the Gimp" is LE Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 - but I can't find from where he is. Being a Halfling with Boromar name - somewhere in Eberron?..)

Bards:
Akeni Orm (Lords of Madness) - LE Bard 6/Fighter 2/Ocular Adept 4
Antilia (Book of Vile Darkness) - LE Bard 20 (!!!)
Formian Astronomer (Planar Handbook) - LN Bard 3
Freilya Stormwind (Cityscape) - LN Bard 5/Urban Savant 6
Lukaas Duskwhisper (Complete Mage) - LE Bard 2/Illusionist 7/Nightmare Spinner 5
(Also, Cylyria Dragonbreast was LN pre-3E)

[Darg]

Actually, there are some lawful barbarians and bards:

Barbarians:
Theogrin Raablek (Complete Arcane) - LN Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1/Green Star Adept 3
(Also, Boromar, Jocomo "Jimmy the Gimp" is LE Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 - but I can't find from where he is. Being a Halfling with Boromar name - somewhere in Eberron?..)

Bards:
Akeni Orm (Lords of Madness) - LE Bard 6/Fighter 2/Ocular Adept 4
Antilia (Book of Vile Darkness) - LE Bard 20 (!!!)
Formian Astronomer (Planar Handbook) - LN Bard 3
Freilya Stormwind (Cityscape) - LN Bard 5/Urban Savant 6
Lukaas Duskwhisper (Complete Mage) - LE Bard 2/Illusionist 7/Nightmare Spinner 5
(Also, Cylyria Dragonbreast was LN pre-3E)

Barbarians and Bards don't lose all of their features for becoming a different alignment. They just have rules they need to follow:


Ex-Barbarians

A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).


Ex-Bards

A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.

As lawful they can't progress in these classes and the barbarian loses their ability to rage. They are allowed to be lawful if they want.


Bards were the worst ones, too. Their alignment restriction is allegedly due to "the spontaneous nature of their magic" (which is identical to how a Sorcerer casts spells) "and their lifestyle" (which is identical to every other adventurer).


His magic emphasizes charms and illusions over the more dramatic evocation spells that wizards and sorcerers often use.


Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).

While mechanically they work like sorcerer spells, the in setting flavor of bards is much more nuanced than that. Their magic comes from the soul and is expressed through music. I think the stereotype is that artists trend chaotic rather than anything to do with their magic or lifestyle which spawns from being artistic.

[ShurikVch]

Barbarians and Bards don't lose all of their features for becoming a different alignment. They just have rules they need to follow:

As lawful they can't progress in these classes and the barbarian loses their ability to rage. They are allowed to be lawful if they want.
Yes, but look at mono-class Bards:

Formian Astronomer is a Formian Myrmarch - an "Always lawful neutral" Outsider with Lawful subtype; it's highly unlikely they ever were non-Lawful to begin with

And Antilia's father is Mephistopheles himself; I doubt being raised in Cania leaves many possibilities of being non-LE

[Darg]

Yes, but look at mono-class Bards:

Formian Astronomer is a Formian Myrmarch - an "Always lawful neutral" Outsider with Lawful subtype; it's highly unlikely they ever were non-Lawful to begin with

And Antilia's father is Mephistopheles himself; I doubt being raised in Cania leaves many possibilities of being non-LE


Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how bradly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Creatures can change alignment. You want to argue that unique creatures break the rules and therefore the rules don't actually apply, but that just isn't the case. There is a world where these creatures aren't breaking the rules and have just since changed their alignment after their last level up.