3.P - Earth Glide Dysfunction?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In 3.5 and PF, earth elementals have earth glide:


Earth Glide (Ex): An earth elemental can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.


Earth Glide (Ex): A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

In both cases, casting move earth stuns the elemental.

Except it's an elemental, and in both PF and 3.5, elementals are automatically immune to being stunned.

Is there any reason to bother rolling that Fort save for a normal elemental? It's immune anyway. Why is that bit even in the ability entry?

[Troacctid]

An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
No dysfunction here, just a run-of-the-mill specific vs. general rules conflict. The earth elemental's entry says that it can be stunned in this particular instance, so it can.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No dysfunction here, just a run-of-the-mill specific vs. general rules conflict. The earth elemental's entry says that it can be stunned in this particular instance, so it can.Except elementals are immune. If it had given a description that matched being stunned but isn't named as such, that's one thing, but elementals are very specifically immune to it.

[Crake]

Except elementals are immune. If it had given a description that matched being stunned but isn't named as such, that's one thing, but elementals are very specifically immune to it.

My dude youre overthinking it. It says the elemental gets stunned, its not a general statement, its a specific one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My dude youre overthinking it. It says the elemental gets stunned, its not a general statement, its a specific one.And then the elemental ignores it. It's like an elemental with Stunning Fist using the feat on itself. It's immune.

Like the thread title says: it's dysfunctional. You can't stun an elemental.

[loky1109]

I think it's copy-paste issue. Earth elementals in 3.0 didn't have this SQ, maybe some other monster had and authors took it as it was.

[Darg]

And then the elemental ignores it. It's like an elemental with Stunning Fist using the feat on itself. It's immune.

Like the thread title says: it's dysfunctional. You can't stun an elemental.

It's only dysfunctional when you think of rules as equals. However, the rules work within a hierarchy of general to specific to exception. Earth elementals being stunned in this specific case is more specific than the general rule about being immune to stuns. It would be an exception to the rule. There are plenty of places like this, just not so blatantly opposed. The rules compendium page 5 tells you that exceptions can out right break more general rules.

[Doctor Despair]

Earth elementals are only immune to this stunning if you think undead are immune to the fear conditions from turn undead.

[loky1109]

Earth elementals are only immune to this stunning if you think undead are immune to the fear conditions from turn undead.
Turn undead doesn't apply fear conditions.

[Darg]

Turn undead doesn't apply fear conditions.

According to the RC it does. Turning can cause the cower condition and according to the RC cower is a fear effect. Therefore undead can't cower, unless specific exception exists as the RC specifically points out does in fact exist. But, that's only if you take the RC as an infallible work that updates every rule it touches upon.

[Wintermoot]

Except elementals are immune. If it had given a description that matched being stunned but isn't named as such, that's one thing, but elementals are very specifically immune to it.

Fine. Just do this copy replace in your head.

Earth Glide (Ex): A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, <and inflicts a condition identical to being stunned except it isn't stunned so its not covered by stun immunity on> the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

And stop expecting rule book authors to write -toward- the "likes to interpret everything to find the most dysfunction possible" demographic because you'll always be disappointed.

[Biggus]

Earth elementals are only immune to this stunning if you think undead are immune to the fear conditions from turn undead.

While turn undead (in the PHB at least) doesn't mention causing fear, only fear-like effects, there are lots of examples of spells and items which do explicitly affect creatures otherwise immune. A golem's spell immunity doesn't work against certain spells, Greater Truedeath/Demolition Crystals allow you to crit undead and constructs respectively, Vine Strike allows you to sneak attack plant creatures, and so on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

While turn undead (in the PHB at least) doesn't mention causing fear, only fear-like effects, there are lots of examples of spells and items which do explicitly affect creatures otherwise immune. A golem's spell immunity doesn't work against certain spells, Greater Truedeath/Demolition Crystals allow you to crit undead and constructs respectively, Vine Strike allows you to sneak attack plant creatures, and so on.Those make explicit exceptions. The earth glide dysfunction does not.

[Darg]

Those make explicit exceptions. The earth glide dysfunction does not.

It doesn't have to say it's an exception. The implication of such is good enough. A barbarian's bonus to move speed doesn't have to say that it's an exception to your base move speed to apply.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't have to say it's an exception. The implication of such is good enough. A barbarian's bonus to move speed doesn't have to say that it's an exception to your base move speed to apply.Giving a bonus to something is a lot different than inflicting a status effect that you're immune to.

If casting a spell leaves you stunned, but you are immune to stunning, casting the spell does nothing to you. Same here.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Giving a bonus to something is a lot different than inflicting a status effect that you're immune to.

If casting a spell leaves you stunned, but you are immune to stunning, casting the spell does nothing to you. Same here.

Does Undeath to Death not work because it works like Circle of Death, which is a death effect? Does Revive Outsider not work because it works like Raise Dead which specifically says it does not work on outsiders? If something says that it is affected by something it should be immune to, then it is affected. Nothing has a higher priority on what should affect a creature than the creature's own statblock (except another effect saying something of the effect of "it isn't affected even if it should be" or "even immune creatures are affected"). "The elemental gets stunned" is as clear as you can be.

If you think it is a dysfunction, then okay, you are free to rule against it in your games, or to post about it on the dysfunction thread. I personally do not consider normalization failures to be dysfunctions when the intent is clear, but you do you.

[Zancloufer]

I mean it's about as dysfunction as most golems. As in they all have immunity to any spell that allows SR, but then right afterwards specify that they can be effected by certain/many SR:Yes spells. So can you damage a Clay Golem with Disintegrate as it's called out for being able to do so, or do you fail because it's a SR:Yes spell and Clay Golems are immune to all of them?

Hack by this RAW tomfoolery Penetrating Strike is actually useless. It let's you sneak attack things for half damage when flanking even if they are immune to sneak attack. But Undead say they can't take precision damage so I guess it does nothing now?


So no, IMHO it's not a dysfunction, just a case of a specific ruling that overrides a general one.

[Zarvistic]

I think you have a good point. It doesnt seem like specific over general in this case. Both rules can just exist and the creature could make a save, fail it, and then the stun that would apply just doesnt happen because of the immunity.

What if you are already immune to stunning but then acquire the earth glide ability, would your immunity work? I think it would and I think this example is closer to this situation than the ones I read on this thread.

[lesser_minion]

Adjudicating specific vs. general without explicit guidance can be a pain sometimes. However:

Racial features and things listed in a monster entry are much more specific than things inherited via type or subtype, which are presumably more specific than things acquired by other means.
A target identified directly by name or pronoun is much more specific than a parametric one. Does it make sense to put an immunity somewhere in between? I think so.

Either (1) or (2) seems in line with the rules and to correctly resolve earth glide without creating much weirdness elsewhere.

[RexDart]

"If you are experiencing earth glide dysfunction, talk to your doctor and see if Geoglidica is right for you."





Sorry. I'll get me coat.

[glass]

I can sorta see the OP's point - it seems to imply an exception, without being worded strongly enough to actually create one. Easy enough to rule that there is an exception at the actual table, but at the very least it is ambiguous if not actually dysfunctional.

[Crake]

I think you have a good point. It doesnt seem like specific over general in this case. Both rules can just exist and the creature could make a save, fail it, and then the stun that would apply just doesnt happen because of the immunity.

What if you are already immune to stunning but then acquire the earth glide ability, would your immunity work? I think it would and I think this example is closer to this situation than the ones I read on this thread.

Except it specifically calls out the elemental as being stunned, meaning it acknowledges the creature type, and must thusly be aware that it is normally incapable of being stunned, but decides to apply the stun condition despite that immunity.

[Darg]

I can sorta see the OP's point - it seems to imply an exception, without being worded strongly enough to actually create one. Easy enough to rule that there is an exception at the actual table, but at the very least it is ambiguous if not actually dysfunctional.

However in this case, it's as dysfunctional or ambiguous as a golem's magic immunity. A clay golem is vulnerable to the move earth spell they are immune to as an earth elemental is vulnerable to being stunned, which they are immune to, by move earth. If you rule a clay golem isn't immune to the spell then consistency says an earth elemental is not immune to the modified stun effect.

[Zarvistic]

Except it specifically calls out the elemental as being stunned, meaning it acknowledges the creature type, and must thusly be aware that it is normally incapable of being stunned, but decides to apply the stun condition despite that immunity.
But then what if you for example have an air elemental with earth glide cast on it, which later is affected by a move earth spell. Would it get stunned or not?

[loky1109]

But then what if you for example have an air elemental with earth glide cast on it, which later is affected by a move earth spell. Would it get stunned or not?

Better. Earth elemental with removed somehow his racial earth glide and casted on it earth glide spell.

[loky1109]

However in this case, it's as dysfunctional or ambiguous as a golem's magic immunity. A clay golem is vulnerable to the move earth spell they are immune to as an earth elemental is vulnerable to being stunned, which they are immune to, by move earth. If you rule a clay golem isn't immune to the spell then consistency says an earth elemental is not immune to the modified stun effect.

No. Golem's case means explicit exception. This is unambiguous in the text. Elemental's case isn't such unambiguous. I could imagine it's bad copy-paste from non-elemental creature (or from spell) with creature's name exchange.

[glass]

However in this case, it's as dysfunctional or ambiguous as a golem's magic immunity. A clay golem is vulnerable to the move earth spell they are immune to as an earth elemental is vulnerable to being stunned, which they are immune to, by move earth. If you rule a clay golem isn't immune to the spell then consistency says an earth elemental is not immune to the modified stun effect.I don't think so! While they are ccertain similarities, the case for the golem creating actual exceptions is rather stronger (not least because they are part of the same ability).

Having said that, it could also be worded better. To whit....


No. Golem's case means explicit exception.It's actually not quite (at least on AoN - I assume the 3e versions are similar). Spells affecting them differently is "in addition" to their general immunity, not explicitly an exception to it. And while some of the specific exceptions argue against that, it is not an unreasonable thing in principle, since not all spells have SR and not all magical attacks are spells.

[ShurikVch]

I think it's copy-paste issue. Earth elementals in 3.0 didn't have this SQ, maybe some other monster had and authors took it as it was.
Yes: Xorn has it even back in 3.0 - but, being an Outsider, wasn't immune to stunning

Actually, Earth Glide for Earth Elementals, apparently, was so last-minute decision even Small Earth Elemental in the Improved Familiars list (Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5) don't have Earth Glide


Also, this whole Earth Glide-Earth Elemental-Move Earth thing have one more problem: in both 3.5 and PF, Move Earth have this line:

This spell has no effect on earth creatures.
Aren't Earth Elementals "earth creatures"?..

[Darg]

But then what if you for example have an air elemental with earth glide cast on it, which later is affected by a move earth spell. Would it get stunned or not?


Better. Earth elemental with removed somehow his racial earth glide and casted on it earth glide spell.


No. Golem's case means explicit exception. This is unambiguous in the text. Elemental's case isn't such unambiguous. I could imagine it's bad copy-paste from non-elemental creature (or from spell) with creature's name exchange.


I don't think so! While they are ccertain similarities, the case for the golem creating actual exceptions is rather stronger (not least because they are part of the same ability).

Having said that, it could also be worded better. To whit....

It's actually not quite (at least on AoN - I assume the 3e versions are similar). Spells affecting them differently is "in addition" to their general immunity, not explicitly an exception to it. And while some of the specific exceptions argue against that, it is not an unreasonable thing in principle, since not all spells have SR and not all magical attacks are spells.

Even though I dislike the RC with a passion, it at least explains how this scenario is supposed to work:


ORDER OF RULES APPLICATION
The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).

Type immunity is a general rule about monsters and the description of earth glide takes precedence over that. The earth glide spell is not a monster based rule, it's a spell. There is no exception because of that distinction.

[Chronos]

Earth Glide has no effect on an earth elemental. It does, however, have an effect on the earth the elemental is gliding through, and that affects the elemental. It's sort of like having a creature that's immune to Disintegrate, but then disintegrating the ground it's standing on so it falls.

[loky1109]

Even though I dislike the RC with a passion, it at least explains how this scenario is supposed to work:



Type immunity is a general rule about monsters and the description of earth glide takes precedence over that. The earth glide spell is not a monster based rule, it's a spell. There is no exception because of that distinction.

It's possible to say Earth glide is more general, because it's not unique Earth elemental's ability as like, for example, Improved grab or gaze attack.
And elemental immunities have precedence.

[Darg]

It's possible to say Earth glide is more general, because it's not unique Earth elemental's ability as like, for example, Improved grab or gaze attack.
And elemental immunities have precedence.

You're focusing too much on the earth glide vs immunity instead of focusing on what the game is actually telling you: a monster's description has precedence over a more general rule about monters, i.e. creature type. If you start zooming in far enough to isolate bits and pieces there are a lot of places where the game just falls apart. The game just isn't meant to be parsed on such a minute level.

[loky1109]

You're focusing too much on the earth glide vs immunity instead of focusing on what the game is actually telling you: a monster's description has precedence over a more general rule about monters, i.e. creature type. If you start zooming in far enough to isolate bits and pieces there are a lot of places where the game just falls apart. The game just isn't meant to be parsed on such a minute level.
One more time. You are looking from perspective where it was all good and clear, and authors don't make stupid mistakes. I'm staying on the ground where they make mistakes every book. And this looks like one of those mistakes.
Yeah, your way to read is right. If written is correct. My point is: it highly likely isn't.

[lesser_minion]

One more time. You are looking from perspective where it was all good and clear, and authors don't make stupid mistakes. I'm staying on the ground where they make mistakes every book. And this looks like one of those mistakes.
Yeah, your way to read is right. If written is correct. My point is: it highly likely isn't.

The fact that they didn't include the text "...despite normally being immune" or similar is a mistake despite that text being redundant. Rules are supposed to be clear. They aren't supposed to spawn multi-page forum threads or need rules on how to read the rules.

[ShurikVch]

One more moment: in the Libris Mortis, sample creature for Necromental template is Large Earth Necromental
Just like living Earth Elemental, it have Earth Glide too
Question: should it still be stunned by Move Earth - considering its both Undead (and thus - immune to stunning as the Type Trait) and have "Con —" (which mean immunity to effects which allow Fort save but don't affect objects)?

[Darg]

One more moment: in the Libris Mortis, sample creature for Necromental template is Large Earth Necromental
Just like living Earth Elemental, it have Earth Glide too
Question: should it still be stunned by Move Earth - considering its both Undead (and thus - immune to stunning as the Type Trait) and have "Con —" (which mean immunity to effects which allow Fort save but don't affect objects)?

If the monster description says it is stunned, it's stunned. It still has a +8 fort save.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the monster description says it is stunned, it's stunned. It still has a +8 fort save.And it also says it's an elemental, which is immune.

[JNAProductions]

And it also says it's an elemental, which is immune.

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.Which is why it's a dysfunction, because it's still immune, so that bit doesn't work.

[Chronos]

No, it's not immune to that specific stunning, because it says it isn't.

[loky1109]

Which is the general rule.
The specific rule says an Earth Elemental gets stunned.
I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

[Darg]

I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

An official source already quoted in this thread says otherwise.

[Crake]

I still think Earth glide could be more general than elemental traits.

An earth elemental's earth glide specifically is more specific than the elemental's type traits. It's not a generic ability that is referenced, it is a specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock. It is written specifically for the earth elemental, and specifically references the elemental getting stunned, ergo, it is more specific than the general rule of elementals being immune to stuns.

[noce]

I know the thread talks about another dysfunction of Earth Glide, but there's more about it.

I played a character with Earth Glide, and was bothered by the fact that Earth Glide doesn't provide any special sense to see through stone.
RAW, even Earth Elementals are completely blind while burrowing.

[Crake]

I know the thread talks about another dysfunction of Earth Glide, but there's more about it.

I played a character with Earth Glide, and was bothered by the fact that Earth Glide doesn't provide any special sense to see through stone.
RAW, even Earth Elementals are completely blind while burrowing.

I dont see how thats a dysfunction? You cant see through solid rock, seems to be working as intended

[loky1109]

An earth elemental's earth glide specifically is more specific than the elemental's type traits. It's not a generic ability that is referenced, it is a specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock. It is written specifically for the earth elemental, and specifically references the elemental getting stunned, ergo, it is more specific than the general rule of elementals being immune to stuns.

Still disagree. It isn't clear specific ability described uniquely in the elemental's statblock in my eyes. Not more than some improved grab or swallow whole. There are some doubts. And big doubt about authors' intention. Maybe even two mistakes which together finally make all works as intended are here. Accidentally.

I agree rules as is highly likely (not 100% still) are working in your way. But my point this way (specific beats general) is disfunctional itself without clear hierarchy. If reader should make decisions about hierarchy by himself something went wrong.

[Tzardok]

I dont see how thats a dysfunction? You cant see through solid rock, seems to be working as intended

It may not be a rules dysfunction, but it still is problematic. The earth elemental possesses no Tremorsense, nor ability to see through stone, nor any other sensory abilities beyond darkvision. Its ability to notice other creatures from within earth is limited to ... Listen checks. And that could be enough if it only hid in walls or something like that, but earth elementals are native to the Plane of Elemental Earth, which is an infinite expanse of rock and earth with a few small air pockets. An earth elemental in its home as written spends its time floating around blindly through infinite rock, with no ability to orient itself, no way to perceive its surroundings, no way to notice anything except if it bumps into a metal vein or another creature, unless it finds an air pocket.

From an ecological standpoint alone, earth elementals should have the Earthsight ability or something similiar.

[Darg]

It may not be a rules dysfunction, but it still is problematic. The earth elemental possesses no Tremorsense, nor ability to see through stone, nor any other sensory abilities beyond darkvision. Its ability to notice other creatures from within earth is limited to ... Listen checks. And that could be enough if it only hid in walls or something like that, but earth elementals are native to the Plane of Elemental Earth, which is an infinite expanse of rock and earth with a few small air pockets. An earth elemental in its home as written spends its time floating around blindly through infinite rock, with no ability to orient itself, no way to perceive its surroundings, no way to notice anything except if it bumps into a metal vein or another creature, unless it finds an air pocket.

From an ecological standpoint alone, earth elementals should have the Earthsight ability or something similiar.

Logically you can't see through fire either. Given enough distance light would fail to penetrate through the minor oscillations caused by moving pure water. Not to mention the plane of water has a lot of ice too. I don't see the problem with elementals that don't need to eat, breath, or drink and are basically immortal mimicking the element they embody.

[Tzardok]

The Elemental Plane of Water explicitely has sourceless ambient light that is more or less the same everywhere. Also, darkvision works under water, so that is not the same. The description of Elemental Fire is also written in a way that people can see there under most circumstances. It's only earth elementals that suffer from that problem.

Also, elementals have societies where they interact with each other. Those are mentioned only at the side in 3.x sources, but 2e went a lot deeper into it. Elementals may not age or eat or sleep, so their societies are alien, but they build, trade and philosophize. And that requires actually being able to perceive each other.

[Darg]

The Elemental Plane of Water explicitely has sourceless ambient light that is more or less the same everywhere. Also, darkvision works under water, so that is not the same. The description of Elemental Fire is also written in a way that people can see there under most circumstances. It's only earth elementals that suffer from that problem.

Also, elementals have societies where they interact with each other. Those are mentioned only at the side in 3.x sources, but 2e went a lot deeper into it. Elementals may not age or eat or sleep, so their societies are alien, but they build, trade and philosophize. And that requires actually being able to perceive each other.

It's as dysfunctional as skeletons being able to see and hear and nobody seems to question that.

It's easy enough to argue that they have the ability to see and communicate through the environment that they live in. It doesn't necessarily need to be an Ex, Sp, Su ability to do so. Rather an unnamed natural ability just like how humanoids don't have a "voice" ability in their stat block.

[Chronos]

There's a rule somewhere that, by default, creatures are assumed to have human-like senses, unless otherwise specified, even if the mechanism for those senses is different. So skeletons can see and hear about as well as humans, despite not actually having eyes or ears. But it's not a rule that all creatures can, by default, perceive their natural environment.

[Darg]

There's a rule somewhere that, by default, creatures are assumed to have human-like senses, unless otherwise specified, even if the mechanism for those senses is different. So skeletons can see and hear about as well as humans, despite not actually having eyes or ears. But it's not a rule that all creatures can, by default, perceive their natural environment.

A sage advice column in dragon magazine mentions that for all 5 senses, but I don't think it's ever stated in a book (maybe libris mortis does for undead but I'd need to find my copy). Though, it's really nice to know that D&D ants have sight.