Should PC stats reflect how PC is played?

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys,
I wonder if you have a player, who is running a PC with high DEX, INT, WIS and CHA, yet player roleplays his character in opposition to these stats?
high DEX, effecting init = player is innatentive/on the phone, oblivious to the fact, that fight has started
high INT = player is really intelligent in life, problem solver, yet completelly uninterested in solving puzzles/similar challenges in game
high WIS = player has a lot of life experience and demonstrates this IRL, yet in game, going with advice of obviously evil NPC is usually how things go
high CHA = player can be really persuasive IRL, yet in game is so uninterested, he is unable to convince NPC about.... anything XD

Do these high stats make sense? A lot of potential, none applied?

Purely mechanical question.

Thanks!

[Kardwill]

Half the fun in RPGs is playing someone we are not in real life. Like, I'm really laid back and uncharismatic IRL, a natural follower. But sometimes, I like to play a "fiery charismatic leader" type. Which means that sometimes, I say "I make a rousing speech about duty and valor, and remind them that we're the last line of defense before the horde reaches the village. Do I roll Leadership?" without actually roleplaying the entire speech, nor being completely confortable about the fact that all these NPCs are probably going to die for me ^^

So, I wouldn't ask a player to show actual charisma/wisdom/knowledge at the table to play such a chatracter, anymore that I would ask the player to be IRL strong or good at swordplay to play a Conan clone. We're usually faking "cooler than ourselves" characters, not actually impersonating them.

Usually, a player creating a character actually wants to play that character, though. If I put a ton of points into social stats, maybe I don't want to make speeches and barter deals myself, but it's still a signal that I want to engage with the social/politics/leadership part of the game. Making a "wise" character and playing it as a fool would be weird.

The problem with D&D is that it's a game where stats have several meanings. Wisdom allows you to resist spells. Charisma makes your sorcerer's fireballs more dangerous. Dexterity allows you to tank attacks. So character creation gets muddled, since "putting a ton of points in charisma" doesn't directly signal "I want to play a charismatic character, please throw me social encounters", or "putting a 18 in dex" doesn't mean that the player wants to have a nimble acrobat.

Sooo... An alternate question may be "what did my player want when he put that big score in a stat he's not interested in roleplaying?"

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey guys,
I wonder if you have a player, who is running a PC with high DEX, INT, WIS and CHA, yet player roleplays his character in opposition to these stats? The stats inform who the character is, they do not dictate it. Let the player play.

[Psyren]

There are ways you can do this without ignoring the character's stats entirely. I've seen smart players running very dumb barbarians for example who get impatient and 'just happen' to lean on the right lever, step on the correct pressure plate, or immediately grab and swig the correct potion that solves a puzzle while the rest of the party is deliberating.

For the initiative one, I find the dice take care of that themselves. Plenty of times I've seen high Dex characters bomb their initiative simply due to a bad roll - for most characters, the d20 is far swingier than their Dex bonus.

[Slipjig]

It could also be that the character isn't living up to their potential. Just because a character has a high strength score and can lift heavy objects doesn't mean they are going to pick up every heavy object they see.

Similarly, maybe a high-INT character COULD solve a puzzle, but they simply aren't interested in doing so. A high-WIS character COULD probably tell if somebody was being truthful, but just doesn't care that much.

[NichG]

Do these high stats make sense? A lot of potential, none applied?

Purely mechanical question.


But, this isn't really a mechanical question at all?

As a purely mechanical question, I'm not aware of any mechanics that determine how a player must make choices for their character or behave at the table. Wisdom doesn't make a character wise, it determines will saves, spell DCs and bonus spell slots if you're that kind of caster, modifies some skills, and occasionally interacts with this or that class ability. Mechanically those numbers are what Wisdom is and the name is just an arbitrary word choice - could have been called Stat #5.

Outside of mechanics, IMO there's a philosophical difference between trying to depict your numbers (with a focus on accuracy) versus numbers being there to determine the abstracted stuff about the interactions with the world that aren't detailed at the table level - the character's mind is the least abstracted since it's under detailed emulation by the player's mind and thats a thing human brains are equipped to do.

I'm personally in the second camp - for me the fun is stepping into a fantastical situation or position and engaging with that in an immersed way, as opposed to say being an actor and accurately depicting a specific vision. That doesn't mean all my characters have to be self-inserts, but it does mean that the behavioral differences from me are things I'm choosing to explore as opposed to things I'm being told (by chargen budgets or setting conceits or whatever) I'm supposed to explore.

I'm happiest when those constraints tell me what I have to work with as far as the consequences of attempted actions or options I have which differ from IRL, as opposed to when those constraints are telling me what I'm supposed to choose.

[Quertus]

Should PC stats reflect how PC is played? Not really, no. I mean, maybe the Int 3, Charisma 3 Orc shouldn’t be quoting Shakespeare love sonnets while solving Trig problems (unless they spent the appropriate skill points, of course), but, otherwise, it’s the response from the NPCs and the world and the mechanics that should reflect the PCs stats.

Sure, most of my high Int characters may be good at puzzles, but some of them just don’t *care*. Sure, most of my high Charisma characters could give a rousing speech to raise morale, but a lot of them either just don’t care, or would likely be focused on something else instead.

But when one of my characters *does* attempt to raise morale? I expect the combination of the approach they take and their skill/Charisma to determine the outcome, the same way the combination of their approach and skill at hitting things determines the outcome in combat. And the blessings of Arangee, of course.

[GloatingSwine]

This sounds like trying to solve out of character problems in character.

Which is doomed.

Dooooomed.

[Kish]

Hey guys,
I wonder if you have a player, who is running a PC with high DEX, INT, WIS and CHA, yet player roleplays his character in opposition to these stats?
high DEX, effecting init = player is innatentive/on the phone, oblivious to the fact, that fight has started
high INT = player is really intelligent in life, problem solver, yet completelly uninterested in solving puzzles/similar challenges in game
high WIS = player has a lot of life experience and demonstrates this IRL, yet in game, going with advice of obviously evil NPC is usually how things go
high CHA = player can be really persuasive IRL, yet in game is so uninterested, he is unable to convince NPC about.... anything XD

Do these high stats make sense? A lot of potential, none applied?

Purely mechanical question.

Thanks!
Uh.

It's not a purely mechanical question. The player is not roleplaying his character is opposition to high stats, because the player is not roleplaying his character at all. "I have a player who constantly broadcasts in every way that he doesn't actually have any interest in the game" is unrelated to the stats on the character sheet sitting in front of that player.

[Ionathus]

What the others have said, more or less. I never constrain my players on what they can or can't know, suggest, or believe based on their PCs' ability scores.

The 7 INT barbarian can still have a good idea when looking at a puzzle. Often, they can flavor it as "everyone else was overthinking it" or some variation thereof. PCs routinely know plenty of niche information because of their background or paying attention in previous sessions. People IRL can develop incredibly specialized skills without having raw talent for the basic action...that's what the distinction between ability score and proficiency bonus is meant to represent.

Overall, no -- your understanding of what that 15 Wisdom or that 8 Charisma means should not dictate what the player who chose that stat is allowed to try doing with it. Success is up to the roll of the dice, but roleplay is their domain. PC choice is literally the only thing they get in this game, and it's sacrosanct.

If anything, if you notice a player really leaning into a stat that they aren't very good at, it might warrant a conversation about changing the stat to match the PC they've been actually playing. But never the reverse.

[Mordar]

This sounds like trying to solve out of character problems in character.

Which is doomed.

Dooooomed.

What was the name of that movie? With the old guy (on a bike?) constantly telling everyone they were doomed, and in the end he says something like "I was always telling everyone they were doomed, but it was me that was doomed!".

Freaking hilarious movie (at least to 14 year old me)...and I think the title of the movie has some kind of Hilarious synonym or related in it...

Ugh.

Oh, also: Stats stay on the paper, not in the player. Best solution to this issue is (gently) enforce device ban or seek entertainment elsewhere (board games are good).

- M

[GloatingSwine]

What was the name of that movie? With the old guy (on a bike?) constantly telling everyone they were doomed, and in the end he says something like "I was always telling everyone they were doomed, but it was me that was doomed!".


I dunno, I was channeling Private Frazer.

[JNAProductions]

This sounds like trying to solve out of character problems in character.

Which is doomed.

Dooooomed.

This.
If you have an OOC issue, talk to the player in an OOC fashion.

[zlefin]

What was the name of that movie? With the old guy (on a bike?) constantly telling everyone they were doomed, and in the end he says something like "I was always telling everyone they were doomed, but it was me that was doomed!".

Freaking hilarious movie (at least to 14 year old me)...and I think the title of the movie has some kind of Hilarious synonym or related in it...

Ugh.

Oh, also: Stats stay on the paper, not in the player. Best solution to this issue is (gently) enforce device ban or seek entertainment elsewhere (board games are good).

- M
looking around it may be the movie 'hysterical'
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085704/reviews

as to the main question; I think in general one should modestly try to play PCs based on their stats; but there's a lot of wiggle room there, and not every stat means they need to be good at everything about that stat, like they could have amazing memory but be poor at riddles.

[Mordar]

looking around it may be the movie 'hysterical'
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085704/reviews

as to the main question; I think in general one should modestly try to play PCs based on their stats; but there's a lot of wiggle room there, and not every stat means they need to be good at everything about that stat, like they could have amazing memory but be poor at riddles.

Bingo.

Similarly, I like the idea of playing to your niche/lane so as to not step on the toes of the other players. Just because you have the high charisma doesn't mean you take the lead in every social situation, because your default prettiness (yes, reductionistic) shouldn't overshadow the mage who has been cultivating relationships within the guild structure and now it is time to ask the Guild for information on an old rogue member they thought dead...

- M

[Pex]

Yes and no, but in truth I'm more biased against the idea of a player using a low IN or WI as an excuse to do things that disrupt the game or otherwise with full knowledge on purpose do something stupid to make the current situation worse. Low IN agree to whatever plan another PC offers and not offer your own. Low WI autobelieve what any NPC says. All good. Don't push the proverbial button the party says don't push or at least wait until we're ready. Don't start a fight in the middle of negotiations. Similarly with low CH. Be shy, stumble over words, fine. Don't insult the Duke when the paladin or bard is talking. The player with the low score thinks he's being funny trying to get a laugh. To me he's being annoying and not contributing to the fun. Comedy bits are fine. Do it when consequences are minimal.

[Mr Blobby]

This was known in Vampire The Masquerade as 'the Malkavian problem'; the belief some players had in thinking 'insane' [their clan flaw] equals 'idiotic comic relief'. The best I had a GM kick back against this was pointing out any Malk [or any vampire really] who was 'unable to function' in vampire society coherently [enough] and/or threatened the Masquerade would have been killed off in no short order. You don't need lots of intelligence for that, just some basic common sense which also tells you stuff like 'don't eat raw meat' [unless your species like that], 'don't stick your hand in a fire' [unless you're a Tiefling doing your party trick] and similar.

And I echo Kish; this isn't a stats issue, this is a player issue. It's clear they don't want to play, but they still turn up. It might be an issue with this particular character - not all characters fit the offered chronicle, and some 'run out of personal story' [a char which was motivated to adventure for wealth might end up building up enough to warrant them to want to retire from it] or that they're simply not into this story. Talk to them politely, alone; mention you feel they're simply going through the motions and offer them 'ways out'. Let them make a new PC [at roughly the same level as the previous one], or see if the types of story they'd like to see can be incorporated into your chronicle. Hell, it might be possible that they're actually kinda more happy to hang out and watch the play than do it. Or even utilise them as a sort of 'sub-GM'; having them play a new one-shot PC each session.

[woweedd]

Hey guys,
I wonder if you have a player, who is running a PC with high DEX, INT, WIS and CHA, yet player roleplays his character in opposition to these stats?
high DEX, effecting init = player is innatentive/on the phone, oblivious to the fact, that fight has started
high INT = player is really intelligent in life, problem solver, yet completelly uninterested in solving puzzles/similar challenges in game
high WIS = player has a lot of life experience and demonstrates this IRL, yet in game, going with advice of obviously evil NPC is usually how things go
high CHA = player can be really persuasive IRL, yet in game is so uninterested, he is unable to convince NPC about.... anything XD

Do these high stats make sense? A lot of potential, none applied?

Purely mechanical question.

Thanks!

Honestly, all of these sound less like a stat issue and more like a "player isn't actually trying to engage" issue. That's not a mechanical problem, that's an OOC problem.

[Silly Name]

This doesn't sound like an issue about stats and roleplaying. It sounds like you have an unengaged, uninterested player, who will be those things no matter what his character's stats are.

[Vahnavoi]

NichG already beat me to it, but in the context of basic ability scores, the answer is "no". In terms of game rules and mechanics, these statistics determine how the character, as a game object, interacts with other game objects. Beyond those interactions, they don't dictate or really even give directions for how a player should play. There is no rule explaining "if a player acts like this, their characters has 16 wisdom", for example. There are few rules going in the other direction, "if character has 16 wisdom, player has to act like this", but even those are sparse.

Actual example of statistics that ARE meant to reflect how a player playes their character, would be experience points and alignment. These are predicated on the player having a choice for how to play and which goals to pursue. A game master then scores them based on whatever criteria is called for.

[Kurald Galain]

Do these high stats make sense? A lot of potential, none applied?

Purely mechanical question.
I'm not sure what RPG you're playing, but if the RPG's mechanics are functional then this should be resolved by itself. Like, if the player is about to go with an evil NPC, give them an insight / sense motive check and their high wisdom score will affect that check.


player is innatentive/on the phone, oblivious to the fact, that fight has started
This, however, is a player issue and something you should talk to him about.