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osyluth
2007-12-16, 11:36 PM
Now there have been a lot of these kind of threads around lately, and as always, gnomes have been ignored and rejected. So I have taken the liberty of starting one of these threads for the mistreated gnomes.

So. How do you like 'em?

Kizara
2007-12-16, 11:53 PM
Goblins -> Hobgoblins

Gnomes -> Dwarves

With the exception that goblins generally serve a useful purpose in a campaign (low level fodder) and gnomes don't.

Durendal
2007-12-17, 12:07 AM
I have always thought of gnomes as masters of all forms of magic. Gnomes dabble in a little of everything; psionic, divine, and arcane. I think it fits their quizzical nature and stays away from the WoW version of tinker gnomes.

Collin152
2007-12-17, 12:13 AM
I like my gnomes as the master of nothing, in general. They are each highly specialized little comunities that tend to leech off of other species for suuport.
And they never, never build machines.
Hgh nature influence, lots of druids, wizards, and rogues.
Yeah.

BCOVertigo
2007-12-17, 12:27 AM
Smoked rare on cedar with feta cheese and carved with the knife I ganked them with. Afterwards boil the leftovers and make soup. Serves 2.

On a more serious, albeit less delicious note, isn't the human supposed to have the "good at everything" category covered pretty hard? Seems to me they are in need of some new fluff but with halflings and dwarves already doing their respective things I see no point in exerting the effort. Most of the people I know who've played gnomes also aspire to play kender as soon as they find a DM who can't pass the sanity check required to keep them out. No judgment on those here who do but I've been scarred too many times to throw that observation aside on principle. :smallannoyed:

Karsh
2007-12-17, 12:40 AM
I like my gnomes with the word "whisper" in front of it and "rogue" or "Illusionist/Shadowcraft Illusionist" after it. :smallbiggrin:

SoD
2007-12-17, 12:45 AM
Gnomes are one of the most overlooked creatures in the DnD world. The other being the Chitine. But there's another thread for that...or there will be.

Gnomes, they're great, I know someone who enjoys playing gnome ninjas.

TheThan
2007-12-17, 12:52 AM
I like my gnomes as fierce tribal warriors (with a pinch of south-seas barbarian), known for headhunting, traps and group tactics.

triforcel
2007-12-17, 12:52 AM
I like 'em crazy and explosive.

MrNexx
2007-12-17, 01:05 AM
http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/indep/newdd/Gnomes.htm

That's how I've always seen gnomes.

Icewalker
2007-12-17, 01:21 AM
I'm aiming for the more tinker style gnomes in my campaign world, to the point where they built an underwater atlantis-esque city...except on the whole they are too wrapped up in research to realize it's getting really old and parts are beginning to break :smallamused:

Absent-minded but extremely smart, researchers.

Perhaps I should split gnomes overall into two different groups: ones focused more on mechanical research and ones focused on magical research. That'd make sense.

Tallis
2007-12-17, 01:56 AM
There are 2 types of gnomes in my world.

The best known are consumate traders and seafarers. Their society is similar to Victorian England (though not as repressed). They love pomp and cerimony and are very concerned about being proper. Overly proper to the point of being slightly silly in the eyes of many non-gnomes.

The less known subrace are much more closely tied to nature. They fill a niche in between elves and dwarves burrowing into wooded hills. They are very reclusive and magical, using illusion to hide themselves from the outside world. They can sometimes be tricksters but never with ill intent.

My gnomes are not tinkers.

Ponce
2007-12-17, 02:00 AM
Dead.

Hate em with a passion.

Wriggly little beasts.

They should all be trampled upon.

TheOOB
2007-12-17, 02:04 AM
Gnomes live in dwarf lands. Dwarf lands are across the sea, gnomes don't travel on boats, dwarves don't talk about gnomes, most humans don't believe gnomes exist. When dwarves want access to rare metal and technology they can't get access to themselves, they go to them, otherwise they avoid them.

Talic
2007-12-17, 02:22 AM
Gnomes... They're the Mad Scientists, right?

Take a look at www.girlgeniusonline.com. That's a gnome.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-17, 02:24 AM
Dead and/or gone.

d12
2007-12-17, 02:42 AM
Proper gnomes will either be extinct/genocided or enslaved and have had their collective spirit crushed, continually ground under the wheels of the human/dwarven/elven machine. I absolutely can't stand gnomes. They've got stupid names and seem like the race most likely to be played by someone wanting to be stupid for its own sake. And I've got no time for enduring party members so stupid that you wonder how they made it through the first day of PC College without stabbing themselves in the back with their own rapier.

In the little proto-homebrew world I play around with now and then all gnomes have been enslaved for at least a couple thousand years (I haven't rigorously established the timeline at this point). They do all manner of menial/dangerous labor. Gnomes in dwarf lands are regularly sent to mine the most unstable areas so no dwarf lives will be jeopardized in extracting the wonderful metals/gems/etc that they love working with.

There are several things I absolutely hate in D&D, and gnomes are no exception. In fact, a friend of mine recently told me that compared to my hatred of gnomes I'm downright polite in my hatred of kobolds, and I absolutely despise those little pieces of filth.

Talic
2007-12-17, 03:03 AM
Proper gnomes will either be extinct/genocided or enslaved and had their collective spirit crushed, continually ground under the wheels of the human/dwarven/elven machine. I absolutely can't stand gnomes. They've got stupid names and seem like the race most likely to be played by someone wanting to be stupid for its own sake. And I've got no time for enduring party members so stupid that you wonder how they made it through the first day of PC College without stabbing themselves in the back with their own rapier.

In the little proto-homebrew world I play around with now and then all gnomes have been enslaved for at least a couple thousand years (I haven't rigorously established the timeline at this point). They do all manner of menial/dangerous labor. Gnomes in dwarf lands are regularly sent to mine the most unstable areas so no dwarf lives will be jeopardized in extracting the wonderful metals/gems/etc that they love working with.

There are several things I absolutely hate in D&D, and gnomes are no exception. In fact, a friend of mine recently told me that compared to my hatred of gnomes I'm downright polite in my hatred of kobolds, and I absolutely despise those little pieces of filth.

I prefer terming the reason I play gnomes occasionally to indulge my whim for eccentricity, not stupidity.

d12
2007-12-17, 03:21 AM
I prefer terming the reason I play gnomes occasionally to indulge my whim for eccentricity, not stupidity.

Hey man, if it helps you sleep at night... :smalltongue:

Honestly, I don't doubt that it's possible to play a gnome who isn't out to Darwin himself hard. I'm just extremely skeptical to the extent that I would prefer to read about accounts of non-stupid gnome characters than risk it in any game I'm playing in. Life's too short to constantly worry about someone trying pull off completely boneheaded, party-killing things. And people interested in doing that seem to gravitate to gnomes. It's like a kind of radiation that they give off.

sun_tzu
2007-12-17, 03:42 AM
I like the Warcraft "absent-minded professors/mad scientists" gnomes, personally.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-17, 07:36 AM
I like them, see sig. I see them as hobbits with a talent for wizardry. Personally I can't stand halflings, but Gnomes work as a small sized race keen to get on with life and stay out of the way of races with more aggression and numbers than them. I can't stand all the daft ideas and stupid tendancies that get tacked onto them, long names, fast speech, mad science, constant bozo joking, on and on. Just cut that and let them be grown ups and sit at the big table (maybe on a cushion but still)

Lady Tialait
2007-12-17, 07:43 AM
I like my Gnomes Krynnish...barring that...just take a Psion who knows fusion and grab a Eddy Murphy in a Fat suit, and apply liberal use of the power to him and Mini Me....we have a Gnome...or a disturbing Image...

Maroon
2007-12-17, 08:13 AM
In my campaign world, there are no dwarves, elves or hobbits, the cheeky Tolkienian bastards. Their spots are filled by Gnomes. Compared to humans, they are extremely long-lived, mentally focused, and vary from slightly eccentric to downright insane due to their meddling with psionics and alchemical substances. Most of them live underground or in forests and they have strong family ties. There are certain 'trends' popular amongst the generations; the oldest Gnomes still wear togas and sandals and have Latin/Greek/occasionally Egyptian sounding names, middle-aged Gnomes like beards and horned helmets and alcohol, young adults spend their time on poetry and philosophy and prancing about in flowery meadows, and the teenagers are busy inventing sunglasses, electric guitars, fizzy drinks, and are forming/renaming/breaking up rock bands at the speed of the commoner quarterstaff railgun.

The young children walk around with thick glasses, dye their hair black, wear black leather trenchcoats, etc.

Zenos
2007-12-17, 08:28 AM
I like them as slightly insane, pyromaniac sorcerers/wizards.

...

That's how my brother plays 'em.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-17, 08:41 AM
I prefer my gnomes dead/gone. Though I will throw in some Tinker Gnomes (as per Dragonlance) on rare occasions. I prefer dwarves to be tinkerers and miners and all that.

KoDT69
2007-12-17, 08:58 AM
I'm with Lord Tataraus on this issue. Gnomes suck. Nobody wants to end up like Gimble... :smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2007-12-17, 09:01 AM
I really like 4ed gnomes.

Corrin
2007-12-17, 09:29 AM
I prefer my Gnomes non-existent. Yet another reason to cheer 4E!

Pronounceable
2007-12-17, 09:35 AM
I also prefer gnomes nonexistant. Worthless crap faced stools...

jameswilliamogle
2007-12-17, 09:52 AM
I see nothing wrong with them. One of the most entertaining characters I ever saw being RP'd was a gnomish Paladin of Tyranny. He had delusions of grandeur that he could pwn any of the other party members in combat, which was quite hilarious.

Even when not a Whisper Gnome, the Forest Gnome can make for GREAT stealthy characters. Pretty good Swordsages, too.

I didn't realize that anyone hated them... kind of surprising, actually. At least they don't spend all their time playing and singing like halflings.

Telonius
2007-12-17, 09:54 AM
I think of them like that one physics, math, or psychology major. You know, the one who you're not sure is absolutely brilliant or batguano insane? That's the kind of gnome I like. The key words here are smart and unstable.

A Good gnome is friendly enough, but his friends might wonder whether or not that friendship is a safe thing. An Evil gnome can be heavy on the creepy. Those guys make for terrific LBEGs or recurring villains, and work particularly well (flavor-wise) with sorcerer, artificer, or wizard. If the BBEG is getting a death ray, soul extractor machine, or any other end-of-the-world device, chances are a gnome made it.

Gnomes are great for justifying the existence of any random, useless, silly, or sadistic magical item. Trident of Fish Command? Totally a gnomish invention. Bag of Devouring? Some gnome thought it would be funny. Rod of Wonder, Bag of Tricks, Instant Fortress ... no sane being would come up with such lunacy. Gnomes explain all of this.

truemane
2007-12-17, 10:21 AM
I've always felt that they were a race in search of an archetype or a stereotype. You have Elves as the GOOD race, Dwarves and the LAWFUL race, Halflings as the CHAOTIC race, and Half-Orcs as the EVIL race. Humans, being not inclined in any real way, are the NEUTRAL race.

That's how I've always seen it, anyway.

Gnomes just don't fit. They always wind up being either Halfling-ish Dwarves or Dwarf-ish Halflings.

Except for the humour content involved in them falling over or blowing things up while trying to create an Ingenious DeviceTM, I've never been able to find a 'home' for them in my campaign worlds.

Serenity
2007-12-17, 10:47 AM
Gnome-adic gypsies who worship the stars and you can never be quite sure you can trust.

jameswilliamogle
2007-12-17, 11:20 AM
At least they don't have big noses anymore. I think that they were based on a certain stereotype of a certain ethnic minority in the northeast united states... I mean, look on p34 of Races of Stone: that's an abacus in the corner, and they work on lots of mechanical stuff with small parts, and are excellent jewelers...

BTW, did anyone besides me own that weird "Gnomes" book with all the pics of naked gnomish females and other aspects of gnomish "familial" life? They based a nickelodeon cartoon off that one, but I don't think the DND gnome really follows this. I remember reading that book all the time when I went to my grandmother's house.

bosssmiley
2007-12-17, 11:27 AM
Written out of the new edition. :smallbiggrin:

Makes sense. I mean, gnomes are just the 'magic dwarf' archetype that Dwarves can now take themselves. Do we honesty need a third short, fat, hairy race in the game? Just plough the Gnomes' burrows under and play an absent-minded Dwarf or bearded Halfling illusionist instead.

Dread Kurtulmak will have to expend his just wrath on some other poor species now though. Any thoughts who'll be suffering his righteous Ren-ish smackdown in 4th Ed? :smallamused:

Telonius
2007-12-17, 11:33 AM
I've always felt that they were a race in search of an archetype or a stereotype. You have Elves as the GOOD race, Dwarves and the LAWFUL race, Halflings as the CHAOTIC race, and Half-Orcs as the EVIL race. Humans, being not inclined in any real way, are the NEUTRAL race.

That's how I've always seen it, anyway.

Gnomes just don't fit. They always wind up being either Halfling-ish Dwarves or Dwarf-ish Halflings.

Except for the humour content involved in them falling over or blowing things up while trying to create an Ingenious DeviceTM, I've never been able to find a 'home' for them in my campaign worlds.

I never really thought of Halflings as particularly chaotic. I guess I'm going with the Tolkien stereotype of farming homebodies that love food and dislike adventure or anything that's unexpected. Though even if they were of a more chaotic bent, I can't really picture a halfling crafting anything more complicated than a farm implement or a really good pie.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-17, 11:33 AM
Dread Kurtulmak will have to expend his just wrath on some other poor species now though. Any thoughts who'll be suffering his righteous Ren-ish smackdown in 4th Ed? :smallamused:

I'm guessing Dragonborn.

Worira
2007-12-17, 11:52 AM
Arnold Bros (est. 1905)

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-17, 12:33 PM
I like mine as researchers iether magic or tech.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-17, 12:38 PM
Writing out Gnomes and not Kobolds would be wrong, but alot of peaple want Gnomes gone and Kobolds in their place. that disturbs me....

anyway..I already said it...I like my Gnomes Krynish.

Lolzords
2007-12-17, 01:42 PM
I like my gnomes as those wacky inventors that customise their weapons, I'd play an inventor class for a gnome.

InfiniteMiller
2007-12-17, 01:53 PM
Evil. And sinister.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-17, 02:22 PM
Gnomes are Taoist / Gnostic / Jedi / Neo-Platonic / Zen philosopher / hermetic / astrologer / alchemists. They are the knowers of truths and fonts of wisdom, the harmless little bald men, the teachers of heroes.

They're also NPCs.

fendrin
2007-12-17, 03:10 PM
I find it amusing that WoW stole the idea of tinker gnomes from D&D, now people think they invented it and DMs steal the idea from WoW. Amusing and sad...

Like Altair_the_Vexed, I use them as a culture of sages and inventors.

They make great plot motivators, like they invented something beneficial that the BBEG stole, and is making a doomsday device out of. The gnome comes to the PCs begging for help.

Because gnomes have a history of incredible magico-scientific breakthroughs, it adds an air of believability to the NPC.

They do function better as NPCs, though. I've contemplated making them viable as a PC race by giving them +2 INT instead of the +2 CON, but haven't tried it yet. I think I would see more gnomes as rogues and wizards...

truemane
2007-12-17, 03:14 PM
I never really thought of Halflings as particularly chaotic. I guess I'm going with the Tolkien stereotype of farming homebodies that love food and dislike adventure or anything that's unexpected. Though even if they were of a more chaotic bent, I can't really picture a halfling crafting anything more complicated than a farm implement or a really good pie.

It's funny, actually. I was playing my Halflings as nomadic opportunists back in 2E, when the official stereotype WAS the Tolkien Hobbit. Then 3E came along and they had changed the stereotype to the way I was already playing them.

Odd.

But even the D&D Hobbits are chaotic of a sort. They dislike central authority, preferring to manage their own affairs and not be beholden to anyone. Their society is fairly loose and unstructured. Although they aren't Chaotic like ther Kender of Krynn or anything, they fit very well the Chaotic Good ideal of being your own boss and following your own idea of Good, not because someone TOLD you to, but because you know it's good.

Add in the the occasional Bilbo and off you go...

Mr. Mud
2007-12-17, 03:25 PM
My Gnomes? Well-done with Sauteed onion on the side, and lots of salt.... lots of salt...

mockingbyrd7
2007-12-17, 03:37 PM
I like my gnomes marinated with garlic and butter.
I like my gnomes shipped off to a certain city in Alaska.

In all seriousness, I like my gnomes to be something of a blend of most of the different views of gnomes. I like my gnomes to generally be:


eccentric
fun-loving
well-intentioned
chaotic
tinkers
pranksters
illusionists
exotic
somewhat daft
odd
huggable
large-nosed
nimble
social butterfly
and look like WoW gnomes; funky and colorful hair, all skin-tones, etc.


I have a soft spot for gnomes. In the largest story I ever completed (roughly 120 pages, 16 chapters), the main character was a gnome rogue based (shamelessly) on my World of Warcraft character. He, unlike other gnomes, was something of an outcast. He was pretty much a Chaotic Neutral loner who was out for himself. By the end of the story, he learned the value of friendship, etc., and I considered him Chaotic Good.

Kantolin
2007-12-17, 04:59 PM
I'm noting that, whenever I play a gnome or halfling, I tend to play them as fighter-types, and usually more straight-forward frontliners than anything else.

Either way, my gnomes tend towards using their intrinsic magical prowness to enhance their physical capabilities. Thus, my typical gishes are gnomes.

Personality-wise, they tend to be solemn and quiet keepers of lore.

I have played a prankster once - he was a surprisingly serious one, and his focus was on coming up with a reason why this prank was occuring before he did it. Several times, he was asked, "Why are you doing this?!" then, when the explanation was given, the other party stopped and really thought about it. If anything, he was dissapointed when forced to resolve problems with lethal force, as he wasn't terribly fond of taking lives - pranks left both parties alive.

Compared to his rival, who had similar beliefs insofar as 'using pranks to tell people things', with the added flaw that the rival was much bigger on the vengence angle than he was, and would get back at you via usually a maiming of some sort. While comparably, my 'prankster' only would use pranks to make people think, as his goal wasn't strictly to cause harm.

Good times. Gnomes are awesome.

Prometheus
2007-12-17, 07:19 PM
Gnomes belong in the deepest darkest corners of the underground - where not even the dwarfs go. Therein lies two archetypes:
The young gnome- easily bored by the setting there, likes to explore, and endlessly pulls pranks to mix things up a bit. Almost like a daredevil.
The old gnome- used to things being consistent, is somewhat OCD when it comes to having exactly as he/she likes it. Devotes incredible amounts of time to their projects, to the point of being a little insane.

When I think back on it, its a much more tragic picture than the characterization of gnomes who are carefree, laid back, and easily amused. These gnomes are always on edge, waiting for something to happen, trying to make something happen. They are not always content, in fact, they never are.

Duke Malagigi
2007-12-17, 08:03 PM
At least they don't have big noses anymore. I think that they were based on a certain stereotype of a certain ethnic minority in the northeast united states... I mean, look on p34 of Races of Stone: that's an abacus in the corner, and they work on lots of mechanical stuff with small parts, and are excellent jewelers...

I think Gary Gygax was modeling gnomes in part off of the Swiss and not the ethnic group you're talking about. Also his father was Swiss, which might say something about Gygax.

F.L.
2007-12-17, 08:20 PM
Kurtulmak likes his gnomes skewered on Skewer-Of-Gnomes.

Shadowdweller
2007-12-17, 08:21 PM
I've never cared much for the whole prankster trope. I tend to treat them as domestic-oriented scholars/bureaucrats/engineers with a dash of Huygen/Poortvliet.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 08:26 PM
Now there have been a lot of these kind of threads around lately, and as always, gnomes have been ignored and rejected. So I have taken the liberty of starting one of these threads for the mistreated gnomes.

So. How do you like 'em?

ruthless mercanyries, merchants, ninjas, and buisness men in some lands, druids in another. The greatest gnome nations is based off 18th century hollin. No tinkers, or experimental stuff
from,
EE

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-17, 08:28 PM
I like my gnomes dead, usually with horrific screams still written all across their hideous mishapen faces, with a Kobold leering over their corpse smiling a sour crocodiles smile of sick satisfaction and smug contentment.

vivid huh?

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 08:41 PM
why does everyone hate gnomes, if you play them the way you want to they can be quite good
from,
EE

fendrin
2007-12-17, 09:21 PM
why does everyone hate gnomes, if you play them the way you want to they can be quite good

a combination of annoying fluff and weak mechanics. If the mechanics were good, everyone would just rewrite the fluff. But if you think about it, Gnomes mechanically are the combination of a dwarf and a halfling. I'm think just swap the +2 con to +2 int. That would make them much more appealing and be right in line with most people's modified fluff.

MrNexx
2007-12-17, 09:25 PM
I think Gary Gygax was modeling gnomes in part off of the Swiss and not the ethnic group you're talking about. Also his father was Swiss, which might say something about Gygax.

Check out Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson; in that, you'll see a lot of basis for some early D&D standards, including the gnome.

Prometheus
2007-12-17, 09:41 PM
I think you can't help to view races as a smattering of real cultures, after-all, for all the magic and fantastical creatures, it is still based of a historical world setting. Dwarves could be seen as German, Russian, or Scandinavian, for example: industrious, hardy, ambitious, traditional. Unless any world civilization be compared to goblinoids, it can't really be viewed as harmful. If Gnomes are Greek or Swiss, it is only in so much as they both are inventive.

The Faceless
2007-12-17, 09:48 PM
I know someone who enjoys playing gnome ninjas.

Surely Gnome Gninjas?

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 09:54 PM
Surely Gnome Gninjas?

Ironiclly enough there is a group of gnome ninjas in my game called the faceless

........

Are you my rouge?

from,
EE

Kantolin
2007-12-17, 09:57 PM
To be fair, insofar as gnomish mechanics, they're very, very good spellcaster mechanics, particularly for a Sorceror, Wizard, or Bard.

Being good at the arguably strongest core class, then two of the just-below-cleric/druid classes, does not a poor mechanically race make.

I mean. Penalties include:

-2 Strength (Which, as a wizard, you don't care about)
10 foot movement speed (Which, as a wizard, you only lightly care about)
Smaller Weapon usage (Which, as a wizard, you care less about than the -2 strength)

So really, you're trading a skills (Which, as a wizard, you don't really care about) and a feat (Which is, admittedly, notably more useful, especially outside of core) for +2 Con, +1 stacking bonus to AC, Low-Light vision, a +1 to the save DC of all illusions you cast, a +4 stacking bonus to AC vs giants, a +2 on listen checks, a +1 bonus on attack rolls against kobolds & goblinoids which may come up, some minor and fun spell like abilities, then... uh. A +2 bonus on Craft(Alchemy), if that floats your boat.

Then the not useful Weapon Familiarity, but hey. I'm willing to spend a feat on those rather nifty abilities above, especially if we're in a core game. Especially since illusions are an acceptable thing to have 'skill focus' in (and if I want to play an illusionist, their +1 stacks with skill focus and greater skill focus illusion, so yay).

Of course, that's just mechnically. I love playing gnomes roleplay wise. :P So hey.

Edit: This post, as a note, was in response to Feldrin's statement of:


a combination of annoying fluff and weak mechanics. If the mechanics were good, everyone would just rewrite the fluff.

The Faceless
2007-12-17, 10:00 PM
Ironiclly enough there is a group of gnome ninjas in my game called the faceless

........

Are you my rouge?

from,
EE

No, last time i played anything resembling a serious, ongoing D+D campaign was five years back. still, fun coincidence.

fendrin
2007-12-17, 10:31 PM
To be fair, insofar as gnomish mechanics, they're very, very good spellcaster mechanics, particularly for a Sorceror, Wizard, or Bard.

And yet I have never seen much optimization with gnomes outside of illusionists.

You might be willing to choose the gnome abilities over a feat, but most people aren't. After humans and grey elves, I see dwarves considered the most optimal core race for wizards.

tyckspoon
2007-12-17, 10:35 PM
And yet I have never seen much optimization with gnomes outside of illusionists.

You might be willing to choose the gnome abilities over a feat, but most people aren't. After humans and grey elves, I see dwarves considered the most optimal core race for wizards.

Because dwarves share most of the same benefits of the gnome and don't have default fluff that people hate (or have no idea what it is.) The dwarf and the gnome are both good races, but the dwarves have better PR, so the gnome tends to get left behind unless you want to make use of the free Spell Focus.

Kantolin
2007-12-17, 11:43 PM
After humans and grey elves, I see dwarves considered the most optimal core race for wizards.

Out of core, you can do a lot with a feat as a caster, making humans a more delicious option, but the bonuses and lack of relevant penalties gnomes get are nothing to laugh at. Most optimization builds are hyperspecialized around one trick anyway. Free AC, Con, and what is essentially Spell Focus (Illusion) which then stacks with actual Spell Focus (Illusion) if you want to go for it? That's a pretty good 'feat' to buy, or at least an acceptable one - if humans and grey elves are the most popular/good caster race, gnomes certainly rank up there.

Anyway... dwarves? What do dwarves get you over a gnome? There's Darkvision instead of Low Light, that's a pro... hm. So Stability vs a +1 to AC, a +1 on save DCs of illusions, and... and that's it? Why on earth would you be a dwarven wizard instead of a gnomish wizard? Maybe for a gish you could use the weapon familiarity or sommat...

...Well, mechanically that is. Flavor-wise, I personally am playing a half-orc wizard who is specializing in abjuration as we speak. ^_^ This doesn't, however, make it a better option.

Either way, I just generally like gnomes. They're not my favorite race, as that honor goes to half-orcs. Gnomes are, however, up there.

fendrin
2007-12-18, 12:04 AM
Dwarves are third because they make better gishes. medium size, no movement penalties in heavy armor, and Dwarven Waraxe as a martial weapon. Basically, everything that makes a dwarf powerful in melee classes translates to why they make good gishes.

Frankly, I see way more gish builds than illusionist builds.

Kompera
2007-12-18, 02:35 AM
I've never played a Gnome. They simply hold no appeal as a character race for me. But I've no objection to anyone who wants to play them, and I'd prefer that 4E had Gnomes than dragon-men or Tieflings.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-12-18, 02:44 AM
I have two kinds of gnomes in my homebrew world: Hobbit-like rural gnomes (standard D&D stats), and city-dwelling gadgeteer/alchemist gnomes.

Brawls
2007-12-18, 05:12 AM
I've always liked Gnomes, myself. I prefer the sage-like delvers into magical mysteries take on the race. The tinkering Gnomes can fit into this paradigm, so long as it isn't taken too far. In our games, they are the most likely to have invented gunpowder, or be very close. They also would guard this secret jealously, using it for functional purposes (like delving into deeper caverns, etc.) but would not reveal to others until there was a war or some such. Then I can picture Gnomish blunderbuss squads wreaking havok on a suprised enemy!

In the last campaign that a Gnome was played, we treated them as a fairly reclusive subterainian society, interacting with Dwarves largely. He was not RPed as being the happy go lucky prankster, and that depiction only seems fitting within their society, not when they are interacting with others races. He was a Cleric of Garl, sent by his order to investigate political turmoil in the kingdoms above ground. The campaign was set largely on an island nation and the aggressor kingdom was on the adjacent continent (think Sri Lanka and India - geographically speaking). A passing joke in the game about how the Gnomes maintained a "tugnel" between the two nations became a plot hook the DM incorporated into the campaign and suddenly the Gnome empire became vastly more central to the action.

I'm a little dissapointed that Gnomes will not be present in 4e Core. For me, I never got into Tieflings or some of the other exotic races introduced. Gnomes just always resonated as being part of any campaign, even if not particularly obvious or central to the larger human society.

Brawls

Khanderas
2007-12-18, 05:18 AM
... flat.

*STOMP*

Quincunx
2007-12-18, 06:31 AM
Noisy: I tried to put a cork in my inner prattling tinkergnomie, which led to Things I'm Not Allowed To Do While Gaming #6259 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29508&page=66).

Over-eager: It's scads easier to toss plot hooks to someone who will leap upon them like sharks to chum than it is to draw out the one Driving Passion of a Serious Character.

Over-complicating matters: This twins with the poster whose gnomes are malcontent. Elves can go keep the status quo. Gnomies will improve it.

Vilehelm
2007-12-18, 06:36 AM
I never liked gnomes. Always felt they didn't fit in at all. Luckily I play Dark Sun, where they have been genocided thousands of years ago. All that remains are villages like Smallhome in the Obsidian Plains where undead spirits of gnomes, pixies and fey dwell.

Saves me the trouble of coming up with an excuse why people should never play gnomes at all.

Satyr
2007-12-18, 07:19 AM
I like Gnomes the same way I like halflings: Wiped out or non-existant, while their ecological and dramaturgical niche is occupied by someone more worthy: Goblins.

osyluth
2007-12-27, 01:14 AM
Wow. That was successful. Anyway I like them killing kobolds while laughing maniacally.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-12-27, 03:39 AM
I like the idea of crazy tinker gnomes over anything else really. If I have a campaign with anyone who is more steampunk then fantasy, it's gonna be gnomes that have the steampunk stuff. I just like the idea of gnomes going around on giant robots...

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 05:42 AM
I don't know what you (The OP) are talking about. Gnomes are a great race to play. I usually go with human because i'm a skillmonkey type and i like able learner, but gnomes would be my second choice out of the core races. (non-core, there's Kenku, Glouria and Drow)

Starting with SLA's and the DC boost to illusiosn is fun. Plus, kickass prestige classes. Shadowcraft mage and Blade Bravo are awesome.

Treguard
2007-12-27, 06:22 AM
I like mine whisper quiet..

ghost_warlock
2007-12-27, 08:53 AM
I liked gnomes in 2nd ed because they were the only race outside of the Humanoids handbook that could multiclass as cleric/thieves. But, still, I didn't play as them much compared to my human thieves, druids, and specialist wizards.

In 3e, I've loved the gnomish illusion synergy but I've never played a non-spellcasting gnome. But, then, I typically play spellcasters over other character types anyway. I throw in the occasional gish or rogue-type for variety but, in the end, I'm typically just not satisfied unless I'm blasting, buffing my buddies, or gimping the baddies. Illusion magic contains spells for all three of these tasks so I don't have any problems playing a gnome. Because my group(s) typically use Traits/Flaws from Unearthed Arcana, I don't usually suffer from a lack of feats so choosing gnome rather than human isn't something I'll lose sleep over. :smallamused:

Flavor-wise, I typically play gnomes as a bit obsessed with magic and more than a little power-mad. I try to play down the bloodlust, though, and use illusions to disguise my villainy if neccessary.

As for WoW, I carried my favored gnome flavor over and made my first gnome character a warlock. I made him completely bald to avoid the incredibly stupid haircuts available in the game.:smallsigh:

sapphail
2007-12-27, 10:36 AM
Roasted on a spit?

Shraik
2007-12-27, 01:17 PM
I like my Gnomes lke Lantan Gnomes. The kind that create entire cities of clockwork machines. They Build a plane, land it, take it apart, and build it into something they need. Those kind of Gnomes. The ones that have the crazed, "WHAT IS IT I WANT TO TAKE IT APART AND MAKE IT BETTER!!!!" look in their eyes.

Treguard
2007-12-27, 01:46 PM
Do any of you remember bottle gnomes? :smallsmile:

Reinforcements? Or refreshment?

osyluth
2007-12-27, 02:01 PM
Do any of you remember bottle gnomes? :smallsmile:

Reinforcements? Or refreshment?

Perhaps the connection between D&D and M:tG is deeper than we have suspected... :wink:

EvilJames
2007-12-28, 01:57 AM
I can't understand the gnome hate of some people on this board (I'm guessing bearded midgets bullied them when they were children) Gnomes are fun to play as long as you avoid the tinkers. Tinkers are best left ot npc's Rock, Forest and Deep gnomes are wonderfull things to play they are often witty if not wise. They are particualrly great if you can't stand elves and want to play a whimsical character. Dwarves are too dour and halflings are to polite.

On a side note Kender are not gnomes. They are not halflings either but closer to halflings than gnomes by far.

Talya
2007-12-28, 09:20 AM
I am running a pbp swashbuckling pirate FR campaign (http://www.boardzero.com/gladerebooted/gladerebooted-about13964-0-asc-0.html), and the guy playing the self-styled captain is a gnome bard/swashbuckler "Dr. François von Hösen" , and damn.

Funniest. Character. Ever.

Excerpt (while sneaking aboard a ship in thick fog):



DM: There's a deafening silence after the racket caused by Goro's ill-conceived attempt at stealth, followed by a shout from the darkness.

"Told ya I heared sometin'."
"Who goes there? Sam, is that you? If you're drunk again..."

---------------

Dr. François von Hösen: Hearing the commotion, Dr. François quietly casts a spell {ghost sound}. An eerie sound suddenly erupts from the other side of the ship.

"Moooooooooooo."

Swordguy
2007-12-28, 09:29 AM
Fried.


Though I've used them as antagonists to good effect before. Evil barbarian-savage tinker gnome clans who roam the plains in massive fortified Land Leviathans are a pretty cool mental image.

Talya
2007-12-28, 09:31 AM
Though I've used them as antagonists to good effect before. Evil barbarian-savage tinker gnome clans who roam the plains in massive fortified Land Leviathans are a pretty cool mental image.

This sounds vaguely familiar.

Do they wear brown, hooded coats?

Swordguy
2007-12-28, 09:38 AM
This sounds vaguely familiar.

Do they wear brown, hooded coats?

Erm...no. I use them as barbarians (similar in society and behavior to mongols) but with a definite technological flair. The interior of the Leviathans are filled with workshops and forges and things.

Am I ripping something off with this? I've used them as a staple of my games for about 10 years now...

Talya
2007-12-28, 09:40 AM
Erm...no. I use them as barbarians (similar in society and behavior to mongols) but with a definite technological flair. The interior of the Leviathans are filled with workshops and forges and things.

Am I ripping something off with this? I've used them as a staple of my games for about 10 years now...

They just sounded like something I saw in a movie, something like 30 years ago now. But it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

Swordguy
2007-12-28, 09:42 AM
They just sounded like something I saw in a movie, something like 30 years ago now. But it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

Wha-?

Dammit. *sigh* *sound of head hitting desk*

You know what they say about original ideas...

osyluth
2009-08-04, 12:35 AM
The traditional tinkerer gnomes are pretty interesting if the GM is creative enough, and crazed inventor types take on a new perspective in a quasi-medieval setting.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 12:38 AM
I like my gnomes well done.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-04, 12:39 AM
So. How do you like 'em?

Never existing to begin with.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-04, 01:01 AM
I like my gnomes well done.

with some fava beans and a nice chianti

Demons_eye
2009-08-04, 01:02 AM
Not a year dead then brought back?

golentan
2009-08-04, 01:03 AM
Like I like my coffee: Stuffed with sugar, injected with milk, and run in a blender with ice.

I like gnomes. They're one of my favorite character races. I like goofy tinker style gnomes and naturalist illusionist gnomes. I make adepts significantly more common among them.

Harperfan7
2009-08-04, 01:19 AM
In my world, a gnomes gnome is a rogue/illusionist/arcane trickster with a flintlock pistol, a repeating crossbow with poisoned bolts and a tommy-gun style 50 bolt drum, several different alchemical grenade-like weapons (that scale with level, including smokepowder bombs), and his own airship powered by bound air elementals and held up with a blimp (which is illusioned when necessary).

How can you not love that?

osyluth
2009-08-04, 01:25 AM
In my world, a gnomes gnome is a rogue/illusionist/arcane trickster with a flintlock pistol, a repeating crossbow with poisoned bolts and a tommy-gun style 50 bolt drum, several different alchemical grenade-like weapons (that scale with level, including smokepowder bombs), and his own airship powered by bound air elementals and held up with a blimp (which is illusioned when necessary).

How can you not love that?

That's a cool image, but isn't letting players access to gunpowder technology that non-gnome PCs are unlikely to have potentially unbalancing?

Blacky the Blackball
2009-08-04, 01:26 AM
In earlier editions, gnomes filled a useful place in that they were effectively "magical dwarves". Unfortunately, in 3e and 3.5e they became rather redundant.

In some 3.5 campaigns I took the gnome statistics, and used them for a PC kobold race.

I did manage to give them a useful niche in one 3.5 campaign though. They were the scattered remnants of an ancient civilisation, the first one to discover magic, and were responsible for the creation of the warforged as their protectors. Unfortunately they managed to sink their continent Atlantis-style leaving only a few islands (formerly volcano-forges). Those gnomes that survived the catastrophe - chiefly those that weren't on the continent at the time - never went back, and fulfil the role of sages, loremasters, technicians and advisors to the other races. The warforged, however, continue to live on the remaining islands and use their forges to create more of themselves (after having travelled the world as an adventurer or mercenary in order to make enough money to afford the components).

However, I love the 4e gnome. They fit the "small trickster fey" archetype far better than I expected they would.

Gorgondantess
2009-08-04, 01:32 AM
That's a cool image, but isn't letting players access to gunpowder technology that non-gnome PCs are unlikely to have potentially unbalancing?

Have you seen the firearms presented in the DMG? Give me a composite longbow over that any day.:smallannoyed:
(I, for one, prefer to make them touch attacks with 1d12 damage and 19-20/x2 crit threat, actually deserving of a bloody feat.)

EndlessWrath
2009-08-04, 01:48 AM
:smalleek: EEP! so much gnome hating. I like gnomes just as much as any other non-human race (humans being favorite). They're just different. I had a gnome enchanter who used lots of illusions and believed pranks were the best way to lighten peoples hearts. I loved playing that character. (btw the party hated this character, my gnome knight was much better.)

Gnomes are odd and interestingly different. sometimes the party doesn't need elves and halflings for the entire party with 1 half orc barbarian...

although humans..we could do with more of those

Deepblue706
2009-08-04, 01:50 AM
Gnomes to me will forever be a people who are composed of mysterious, fey-like tinkerers who are all fans of Woody Allen.

arguskos
2009-08-04, 01:51 AM
Never existing to begin with.
This is how I like my gnomes: dead and gone, stupid little blighters. :smallannoyed:

WarBrute
2009-08-04, 02:09 AM
Well I hate gnome's in World of Warcraft but I love gnomes in DnD. I guess I have always disliked halflings, because I can't separate them and Tolkien. At least gnomes have a base in old mythology.

I like my gnomes to be archivists, alchemist, and merchants. I also see them as studiers and protectors of old and powerful magic.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 04:01 AM
Oh, oh, the wrath of Garl.

I'm obviously a gnome fan (I mean, come on. My board name is taken from one of my Gnomish rogue/illusionists).

Gnomes, yeah, do overlap in terms of 'design space' with both dwarves, elves, and halflings - they're hardy like dwarves, magical like elves, and short like halflings. Bah. In my campaigns, I give gnomes a bonus to INT, because they're supposed to be curious, inquisitive, and educated. What's all this bloody CON stuff, anyway? Gnomes never really had anything in the way of toughness that I can recall. It's a third edition scam to make sure that elves are the best wizards, because for some reason WotC thinks elves are awesome and ethereal and pretty and gnomes are only good for comic relief. But no, gnomes are the most inherently magical race. As the only one with racial SLAs, they have their own niche - natural magery. It's the bloody elves that need to go.

Gnomes are consummate artists, painters, musicians, philosophers, thinkers, tinkers, brewers, alchemists, cooks, pranksters, and merchants. They are charming and bright and friendly, and they're just so full of magic that they sometimes crap glitter. Plus, they don't step on the toes of any other races (except kobolds, who pretty much deserve to die screaming anyway). Who could hate a gnome?

I love my gnomes as pirate captains, daring duelists, swoon-inducing casanovas, capable mages, occult detectives, and whisper-quiet spies. When the orc to your right dies screaming with a bolt in his throat, was that the prancing mincing elven archer? No, it was the gnome sniper with the scoped crossbow two hundred and fifty feet away hidden in the bushes. When the children are laughing with glee and their mothers are sighing with longing, is it the moronic half-blind human bard? No, it's the gnomish illusionist in a dashing coat putting on a delightful puppet show with his glamers and figments. Who's that dashing between your legs, cutting your hamstrings and shattering your kneecaps? The lazy, gluttonous halfling kleptomaniac? No, it's the gnomish paladin with his vicious hooked hammer, fighting for truth, justice and the Gnomerican way. Who brewed that potion you're drinking, the one that's saving your life? A gnome. What braumeister concocted that delicious ale? A gnome. Who cooked you that savory pot roast? A gnome. Who's stealing your purse and giving a few silver coins to the beggar children? That's right, a bleeding gnome. Well, he will be bleeding if you get your hands on him - but you won't because he's a gnome and therefore made of pure, concentrated, radioactive Awesometonium. So learn to love your local gnome - they may have you beat in terms of personality, longevity, intelligence, attractiveness, charm, passion, drive, desire, wizardry, wisdom, stealth, health, and general hygiene, but at least they don't remind you of it every bloody second.

But elves do. So get rid of them. Bloody arrogant blighters, they are. Right royal tossers deserving of complete and total genocide. Think they're so much better than everyone... we'll show them who's better... grumble...

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 04:02 AM
How I like my Gnomes: One head shorter.

Myrmex
2009-08-04, 04:08 AM
I play my gnomes as psychotic, sexual deviants of indeterminant age, who lie, cheat and steal, with constant appeals to pragmatism (and murder).

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-04, 04:21 AM
I likes em raw. I always thought of gnomes as annoying things that you kill with judicial applications of rat poison when you find them. Nixing them as a race was one of the few things that I liked about 4e, but that's just my two cents.




with constant appeals to pragmatism (and murder).

Hey! I consider myself a pragmatist, and an upright moral individual. For your information I've never killed anyone (that the court system can prove).

Eldan
2009-08-04, 04:30 AM
"Gnomes? Ah, shuddup. Old wives' tales. Everyone knows that gnomes don't exist."

There are no gnomes in the world. Even the slightest notion of a race of knee-high humanoids who mastered the magic of shadow and illusion millenia ago and vanished around the time the elves gave up their nomadic livestyles and built kingdoms is preposterous. Every respectable researcher can tell you that there are neither flying cities hidden in the clouds, guarded by task-bound genies nor are there gnomish enchanters infiltrating the courts and governments of all nations.

Yora
2009-08-04, 04:33 AM
With gnomes, I go for the burrow-dwelling forest dwarves. They are ratehr good at alchemy and herbalism, but no engineering. They are rather light-hearted and remind people not to take everything in life too seriously, but they don't think it's fun to destroy things and annoy people all day without any disregard for other peoples personal feelings and freedom.

There are also no halflings in the world.

kamikasei
2009-08-04, 04:34 AM
I don't have anything in particular against gnomes, but I do like to see them getting screwed over by kobolds (preferably so that they don't even realize it until it's too late). This is more about disliking the gnomes' god than the gnomes themselves.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 04:37 AM
I don't have anything in particular against gnomes, but I do like to see them getting screwed over by kobolds (preferably so that they don't even realize it until it's too late). This is more about disliking the gnomes' god than the gnomes themselves.

Admittedly, Garl was kind of a total jerk to Kurtulmak for no good reason.

kamikasei
2009-08-04, 04:40 AM
Admittedly, Garl was kind of a total jerk to Kurtulmak for no good reason.

"I punched a god once... in anger. In my defense, the god was being kind of a ****."

"Yeah, I don't know what that god's problem was."

Ahem. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Pronounceable
2009-08-04, 04:58 AM
A foul necromancy. Just the sort of vileness you expect from gnomes.


How do you like your gnomes?
I don't. I can't be bothered to read thru such a necromanced thread again, so I may be stating the same thing. But it bears repeating:

Gnomes are big nosed little bags of **** that are a waste of perfectly good organic material. They deserve nothing more than complete genocide across multiverse, followed by rewriting of all history and literature to erase traces of their existance. Maybe Modify Memory every living thing that remembers them too, for good measure.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:14 AM
A foul necromancy. Just the sort of vileness you expect from gnomes.


I don't. I can't be bothered to read thru such a necromanced thread again, so I may be stating the same thing. But it bears repeating:

Gnomes are big nosed little bags of **** that are a waste of perfectly good organic material. They deserve nothing more than complete genocide across multiverse, followed by rewriting of all history and literature to erase traces of their existance. Maybe Modify Memory every living thing that remembers them too, for good measure.

To be fair, I don't think they much like you, either.

Not with that attitude, mind you!

Eldan
2009-08-04, 05:22 AM
I still don't get all the hate for gnomes. Why? Most posts I've seen in here seem to consists of expressions of hate, but no arguments as to why the hate is there in the first place. Bad experiences with players playing gnomes? A dislike for the source material and fluff?

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-04, 05:23 AM
Common Gnome ---> Dungeonpunk

Whisper Gnomes ----> Hooded Swift Elusive Little Bastard

Wild Gnome ----> Hooded Swift Elusive Little Funny and Generous People

Deep Gnome ----> Mysterious Gnomes of the realms of the Deeps


I love gnomes, even if I see that most of my players don't like them so much, or at least wouldn't play them. (them and small races in general). Duuuh.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:24 AM
I still don't get all the hate for gnomes. Why? Most posts I've seen in here seem to consists of expressions of hate, but no arguments as to why the hate is there in the first place. Bad experiences with players playing gnomes? A dislike for the source material and fluff?

A vast and abiding love of kobolds?

Yora
2009-08-04, 05:26 AM
Well, there has been a lot of terrible things been done under the name of gnomes.

But remember: Kenders!
Halflings suffer from insanity as much as gnomes.

Quincunx
2009-08-04, 05:40 AM
"Gnomes? Ah, shuddup. Old wives' tales. Everyone knows that gnomes don't exist."

There are no gnomes in the world. Even the slightest notion of a race of knee-high humanoids who mastered the magic of shadow and illusion millenia ago and vanished around the time the elves gave up their nomadic livestyles and built kingdoms is preposterous. Every respectable researcher can tell you that there are neither flying cities hidden in the clouds, guarded by task-bound genies nor are there gnomish enchanters infiltrating the courts and governments of all nations.

Now this. . .this amuses me. I might even suppress the GNOMIE POWER campaign for this. Temporarily. As long as it was 'fun'.

Coidzor
2009-08-04, 05:46 AM
Amoral Industrialists who were persecuted for being sociopathic Ayn Rand sycophants until they bred a slave race of half-ogres using kidnapped and brutally raped women and, well, wild ogres. Also, invented the caesarian section in order to get 2 or 3 half-ogres per-woman in order to save money on kidnapping them.

Killed the king of the most powerful and advanced nation for not raping the environment enough and rather than give the rest of the royal family the dignity of assassination, sent them to the ogre-rape camps.

And then of course there's the clueless bumpkins who found themselves living amongst halflings ages and ages ago who have nothing to do with this due to the amount of pipe-weed they ingest actually subduing their otherwise rampant need to profit and paranoid protect themselves from harm by amassing wealth and inflicting pain upon others.

Either that or alchemists who have a tendency to blow themselves up and an almost as disturbing tendency to get better from it in order to blow themselves up some more.

Yora
2009-08-04, 05:49 AM
This is even sillier than the elf hate I've seen in german forums :smallbiggrin:

Ashes
2009-08-04, 05:51 AM
I have always thought of gnomes as masters of all forms of magic. Gnomes dabble in a little of everything; psionic, divine, and arcane. I think it fits their quizzical nature and stays away from the WoW version of tinker gnomes.

Tinker gnomes are from Dragonlance. Greatly preceding WoW.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:52 AM
This is even sillier than the elf hate I've seen in german forums :smallbiggrin:

Not at all. Elves deserve to be hated. Gnomes don't.

By the way, Coidzor, nice Arcanum reference. One of the few instances where I've actually been scared of what gnomes are capable of - the other being Zilargo.

Yora
2009-08-04, 05:54 AM
Tinker gnomes are from Dragonlance. Greatly preceding WoW.

Aren't kender also dragonlance?

Oh no, my little bit of respect I got from being not well informed is increasingly slipping away.

Pronounceable
2009-08-04, 07:59 AM
I still don't get all the hate for gnomes. Why? Most posts I've seen in here seem to consists of expressions of hate, but no arguments as to why the hate is there in the first place. Bad experiences with players playing gnomes? A dislike for the source material and fluff?

Racism. It's not limited to elves, you know.

Mr.Moron
2009-08-04, 08:08 AM
The perfect gnome...:

-Is Special
-Is Challenging
-Is Soft & Cuddly
-Has lots of firepower
-Is full of surprises
-Never stops dancing
-Has accessories

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 08:11 AM
Racism. It's not limited to elves, you know.

It's mostly that Gnomes, regardless of settings, are incredibly annoying.

Yora
2009-08-04, 08:13 AM
No. Gnomes are only annoying because of setting.

There's nothing really anoying about gnomes as in the PHB. All the annoying comes from silly novel autors.

Eldan
2009-08-04, 08:13 AM
Huh. Interesting. I've never seen a gnome that I would classify as really annoying. Well, maybe in the sense that fighting an illusionist in his stronghold can get frustrating and you never know what was real and what not, even after defeating him, but still.
Well, different interpretations and all that.

kamikasei
2009-08-04, 08:16 AM
It's mostly that Gnomes, regardless of settings, are incredibly annoying.

I'd hardly say that. What's annoying about Eberron gnomes, for example?

No, I'd say it's that the PHB writeup leads too many people who play gnomes to think they have license to be annoying because "they're pranksters!".

Gnaeus
2009-08-04, 08:59 AM
Gnomes are probably the best single race for druids (which are neck and neck with wizards for being the cheesiest class in the game). Con bonus gives you extra hit points in Wildshape, and that pesky strength hit just goes away. The small size helps you by expanding the list of animal companions you can use for a mount, and bonus hit points and AC are good for surviving those dangerous levels between 1 and 3 before you fly off on your dire bat and are never threatened by landbound monsters again. The stupid free casting abilities are helpful if you ever want to talk to a summoned badger.

Drider
2009-08-04, 10:39 AM
In my campaign world, there are no dwarves, elves or hobbits, the cheeky Tolkienian bastards. Their spots are filled by Gnomes. Compared to humans, they are extremely long-lived, mentally focused, and vary from slightly eccentric to downright insane due to their meddling with psionics and alchemical substances. Most of them live underground or in forests and they have strong family ties. There are certain 'trends' popular amongst the generations; the oldest Gnomes still wear togas and sandals and have Latin/Greek/occasionally Egyptian sounding names, middle-aged Gnomes like beards and horned helmets and alcohol, young adults spend their time on poetry and philosophy and prancing about in flowery meadows, and the teenagers are busy inventing sunglasses, electric guitars, fizzy drinks, and are forming/renaming/breaking up rock bands at the speed of the commoner quarterstaff railgun.

The young children walk around with thick glasses, dye their hair black, wear black leather trenchcoats, etc.

I lol'd at the end of that.

I prefer to just make gnomes as a culture small barbarians with napolean complexes, with the leader being the strongest barbarian. S/He'd(mostly male, but I roll a D20 each time I make a new "gnome town", and on a 20, its a female chief, unless plot demands the chief being a certain gender) have a tribunal of druids and sorcerors deal out justice(who multiclass as a bard with a choice of perform (ceremonial pan flute, oral story telling, dancing). They are skilled at architecture, and the rogues rival kobolds in trapmaking, and making defensive fortifacations.
Instead of being skilled at illusion, they are skilled in abjuration, or conjuration(depending on if they are sorceror(abjuration) or druid(conjuration). Geographically, they are surrounded by hobgoblins(I treat as samurai-esque) and extreme forests filled with horrible monsters which require a team of gnomes to hunt. Sometimes a single gnome leaves the tribe and lives alone to teach themself the gnome combat style savate, relying mostly with kicks the force them to put their entire body weight onto their foot and outsmarting wild animals, becoming monks and/or rangers.
Having a particuliar trophy from an animal sort of becomes your "last name" which you "earn", but other than that, you would only have a first name.
Classes they usually don't become(without a good RP explanation) would be fighter, wizard, paladin, and cleric(their role is filled by druids).

LibraryOgre
2009-08-04, 10:44 AM
It's mostly that Gnomes, regardless of settings, are incredibly annoying.

What's annoying about the gnomes of Greyhawk?

woodenbandman
2009-08-04, 11:17 AM
I like gnomes just fine. I like the tinkerer gnome, it just seems to make so damn much sense to me.

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 11:24 AM
What's annoying about the gnomes of Greyhawk?

They're pranksters, engineers and illusionists. What's not annoying about them?


I'd hardly say that. What's annoying about Eberron gnomes, for example?

No, I'd say it's that the PHB writeup leads too many people who play gnomes to think they have license to be annoying because "they're pranksters!".

Ok, I'll admit it; a gnome dropped on our tent (my tent) in a campaign and broke it (dying in the process). I've hated them ever since.

Morty
2009-08-04, 11:25 AM
I like my gnomes as diminutive earth spirits, myself.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 12:27 PM
I still don't get all the hate for gnomes. Why? Most posts I've seen in here seem to consists of expressions of hate, but no arguments as to why the hate is there in the first place. Bad experiences with players playing gnomes? A dislike for the source material and fluff?

Garl Gllittergold and a tendency towards mind rape as the proper solution for dealing with criminals.

I mean, Kurtulmak wouldn't pull some of the jerk moves Garl gets up to.

Yrcrazypa
2009-08-04, 04:14 PM
I much prefer gnomes to elves, that is for sure. Besides, gnomes can be fun to play if you like tricks, and if your DM/you are creative enough to use illusions to good effect. Sure you can play an illusionist of any race, but gnomes fit the bill the best.

PLUN
2009-08-04, 04:18 PM
As an unfortunately obtuse racial stereotype.
Oy vey.

Actually as a malignant mafia like force that is 'replacing' halfling settlements with Gnomes in similar but bloodstained clothing selling similar but bloodstained products.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-04, 04:45 PM
Deep fried with a side of fresh veggies and some juice.


Or as a regional name for a single subtype of minor fey, along with gremlin, kobold, and goblin. yes, I made kobolds and gnomes the exact same species. Let partisans of both sides begin sharpening their knives.

Malfunctioned
2009-08-04, 04:54 PM
I never actually had a problem with the gnomes from the PHB but I'd always thought they could just be different, so I tried to make my own.

I replace the ability to talk to burrowing animals with talking with flying animals and replaced darkvision with a +4 to ride and handle animal checks involving flying mounts. That was the end of the crunch modifications.

For the fluff I changed them from prank-pulling trickster miners into a militaristic aerial army race. There entire society is built around your rank and family names are based around the highest award that you or your ancestors have been awarded. All gnomes must enter the army as soon as they come of age, before then they will work in other places around their air-base, mostly in farming or mount tending. Every gnome in the infrantry, which is 100% mounted, is given their mount when they pass basic training, depending on which section of the infrantry they're in they can get mounts ranging from dire bats to cloud rays and rocs. There are other sections of the army, as there are in a normal army but most gnomes join the infantry as it is seen as the most honorable thing to do. The mounts are often equipped with harnesses that hold two rods, usually ones that hold offensive spells such as magic missles or fireballs.

The last thing are the air-bases, which are personally my favourite part of the new gnomes. The bases are essentially massive armored complexes built around specially grown giant soarwhales. The gnomes burrow deep into the soarwhales skull to reach the brain, they then attach various mechanical and magical devices to the brain to allow them to control and direct it. Specific parts of the whale are specially treated to allow plants to grow and farming to take place.

So those are my gnomes, any opinions?

ericgrau
2009-08-04, 05:34 PM
I like my gnomes. WeeeahAAHAhahaha... aha... ha....... ha. Whew.

FoE
2009-08-04, 05:36 PM
How do you like 'em?

Well-done, with ketchup. :smallbiggrin:

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:41 PM
Well-done, with ketchup. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, how many times in this thread do we gotta hear this joke?

Lert, A.
2009-08-04, 05:43 PM
Seriously, how many times in this thread do we gotta hear this joke?

*shrug*

Like, fifty?

Xallace
2009-08-04, 05:48 PM
"Like walking into the kitchen of a delightful Italian stereotype!" - Cinnamon Scudworth, Clone High

No, seriously. I like my gnomes a race of tiny Leonardo DaVinci clones that all have mafia connections and a love for fine, hearty foods. I wouldn't have them any other way.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:49 PM
Dammit! I haven't been to the Olive Garden in, like, FOREVER!

ElanaOfTheKon
2009-08-04, 05:50 PM
Goblins -> Hobgoblins

Gnomes -> Dwarves

With the exception that goblins generally serve a useful purpose in a campaign (low level fodder) and gnomes don't.

:smallfurious: Now thats not true Gnomes are plenty useful they're not ment to be physicaly powerful but they are awsome arcanists and adventures , even rangers. Plus they're creativity brings all sorts of new inventions like fridges , etc...
But the most important point is that gnomes are good characters ( and im not talking about game mechanics) if you know how to play them , they bring quite a nice flavor to a story.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 05:53 PM
See, now I want to run a version of Tucker's Kobolds... only...

Tucker's Gnomes. Same situation, same tactics, just gnomes instead of snapping rat-like dragon-descended kobolds.

I am curious to see whether or not the gnomes evoke the same amount of ire and fear.

Probably will, since the juxtaposition between their relatively cuddliness and the sudden "oh my god oh my god I'm on fire I'm level twelve and a creature with CR: 1/2 just set me on fire" is pretty stark.

Xallace
2009-08-04, 06:00 PM
See, now I want to run a version of Tucker's Kobolds... only...

Tucker's Gnomes. Same situation, same tactics, just gnomes instead of snapping rat-like dragon-descended kobolds.

I am curious to see whether or not the gnomes evoke the same amount of ire and fear.

Probably will, since the juxtaposition between their relatively cuddliness and the sudden "oh my god oh my god I'm on fire I'm level twelve and a creature with CR: 1/2 just set me on fire" is pretty stark.

The thing is that I just don't see gnomes working like that. I mean, hyper-intelligent tricksters working together to actually outsmart a group of PCs sounds right up their alley, but I get the feeling the gnomish way of doing it would be a lot more convoluted. More magic, more unnecessary clockwork deathtraps.

Actually, I'd set it up the exact same way as Tucker's Kobolds, and just make it one huge machine built by a gnome team. They're sitting back on lawn chairs sipping fruity drinks while the PCs die horribly.

Also high five for watching Clone High.

Gorbash
2009-08-04, 06:06 PM
I like my gnomes wielding unimaginable arcane power. Kinda hard to laugh at someone who can kill you in so many ways possible.

Guancyto
2009-08-04, 06:10 PM
I like them off my lawn.

I also like them as surly, vicious bastards who got fed up with the "pranks are culturally awesome, and also a method of courtship!" thing, and whose idea of a counter-prank is throwing you down a well, filling it with hot oil and setting it on fire.

Athaniar
2009-08-04, 06:12 PM
I prefer kobolds, to the degree that I'd be happy if the kobolds created a plague that would wipe out all gnomes in existence. But if we have to have gnomes, the Warcraft ones are good for me. Engineering, arcane, comic relief.

erikun
2009-08-04, 06:43 PM
Tucker's Gnomes. Same situation, same tactics, just gnomes instead of snapping rat-like dragon-descended kobolds.
Castle bathed in illusions. Teleport traps. Gate doorways. Trapped treasure chests which, when opened, a giant clockwork arm pops out and locks the rogue back inside. Situational gravity dependant on which way you entered the room. Illusionary suits of armor, animated suits of armor, Shadow Conjuration suits of armor... then throw a golem at them.

Your PCs will probably commit suicide rather than try to find their way out. :smallbiggrin:

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 07:03 PM
Castle bathed in illusions. Teleport traps. Gate doorways. Trapped treasure chests which, when opened, a giant clockwork arm pops out and locks the rogue back inside. Situational gravity dependant on which way you entered the room. Illusionary suits of armor, animated suits of armor, Shadow Conjuration suits of armor... then throw a golem at them.

Your PCs will probably commit suicide rather than try to find their way out. :smallbiggrin:

I like this very, very, very much.

erikun
2009-08-04, 07:39 PM
Yeah, but I think I'm agreeing with Gorbash - with enough arcane power to craft something like that. Let's see if we can Tuckerify them a bit more.

To start off, the Gnomes know you're coming. They've probably been following your movements since you entered the forest - Handle Animal as a Warrior class skill combined with an inate Speak with Animals means they have highly accurate intel on your movements, unless your party likes wasting arrows on every chipmunk and fox that you (probably won't) see.

Most will be hiding, and with around a +8 hide check (+4 small, +2 cross-class skill points, +2 for Dex 14, -0 Leather armor) they have a good chance to remain hidden. Make that +12 if you're dealing with Forest Gnomes. Unsurprisingly, they're going to be sniping you. However, trying to track them down will be worse than staying ignorant. Ghost Sound can make the sound of arrows zipping through overgrowth as well as the real thing, and following the sounds of arrows fired leads to... well, guess what else Gnomes are good at?

If you said "Alchemy" then you get a gold star! :smallbiggrin: You also get the tanglefood bags they'd placed in the direction of the ghost sound arrows. Once you're in an easily identifyable location, don't be surprised if the toss a few more gifts your way - smokesticks, thunderstones, and acid all work well. (Throwing Alchemist Fire in a forest isn't such a good idea.) Traps are a convienent way of delivering alchemical goodies, too - frequently triggered by "low" hanging branches which a gnome can easily run under, but humans would need to push past.

Of course, this assumes just warriors in your Gnome group. Throw in a few spellcasters and things get evey more interesting. Sleep makes it hard to get the full party out of any trap, Obscuring Mist makes it hard to run anywhere, and Minor Image means you won't be running into any visible Gnomes - well, unless your party runs into rocks and trees frequently.

KeresM
2009-08-04, 07:42 PM
Gnomes with really high intimidate scores are probably my favorite flavor.

The delusions of grandeur add a bit of savory.

Devils_Advocate
2009-08-04, 10:06 PM
A difference between gnomes and kobolds is that gnomes don't want to kill people for being curious enough to invade their lair. Gnomes respect curiosity. They like it.

So the Tunnels of Tucker's Gnomes are filled with confusing illusions, unpredictable traps, and nigh-unsolvable puzzles, but nothing there will actually hurt you. Passages subtly curve to turn you around and make the place difficult to map. Rooms frequently look identical or nearly identical to other rooms, to further disorient visitors. But if you keep going long enough, you'll probably find a way out.

The thing is, while there are multiple entrances/exits to the Tunnels, they don't actually lead anywhere else. They're not there to protect any treasure, or valuable secrets, or defenseless civilians. There seriously aren't even any gnomes living under this hill. They're secretly in another hill nearby with only one very well-hidden entrance. They created this whole place purely as a distraction to people who want to mess with gnomes. Sometimes one of them will run into the Tunnels to lose a pursuer, because they learned how to navigate them as a childhood rite of passage. But no one lives there and nothing is stored there.

The gnomes think that this is hilarious.

Harperfan7
2009-08-04, 11:02 PM
That's a cool image, but isn't letting players access to gunpowder technology that non-gnome PCs are unlikely to have potentially unbalancing?

Yeah, but then they could always be druids.

My gnomes are +2 Int, -2 Wis with a whole different set of racial abilities.
My elves are more ranger than wizard.

My guns are simple weapons that take a long time to reload (faster if you exotic prof), 1d6 but you reroll every six that comes up, until you don't get a six. They are touch attacks, except plate armor gets half its bonus rounded down, and adamantine armor gets full bonus (unless the bullets are adamantine). They roll on a chart for random mishaps (the one in Dragon #321). Normal pistol costs 2,500 - MW costs 5,000.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 11:03 PM
A difference between gnomes and kobolds is that gnomes don't want to kill people for being curious enough to invade their lair. Gnomes respect curiosity. They like it.

So the Tunnels of Tucker's Gnomes are filled with confusing illusions, unpredictable traps, and nigh-unsolvable puzzles, but nothing there will actually hurt you. Passages subtly curve to turn you around and make the place difficult to map. Rooms frequently look identical or nearly identical to other rooms, to further disorient visitors. But if you keep going long enough, you'll probably find a way out.

The thing is, while there are multiple entrances/exits to the Tunnels, they don't actually lead anywhere else. They're not there to protect any treasure, or valuable secrets, or defenseless civilians. There seriously aren't even any gnomes living under this hill. They're secretly in another hill nearby with only one very well-hidden entrance. They created this whole place purely as a distraction to people who want to mess with gnomes. Sometimes one of them will run into the Tunnels to lose a pursuer, because they learned how to navigate them as a childhood rite of passage. But no one lives there and nothing is stored there.

The gnomes think that this is hilarious.

And this sort of thing is exactly why people hate gnomes.

Gnorman
2009-08-04, 11:28 PM
And this sort of thing is exactly why people hate gnomes.

Why, because they're smart? And devious? And tricky? Hell, kobolds are the same thing and yet people seem to love them.

Double standard.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-04, 11:32 PM
Why, because they're smart? And devious? And tricky? Hell, kobolds are the same thing and yet people seem to love them.

Double standard.

I don't know about that. Don't they have a kobold selling car insurance and a gnome selling cheap airline tickets? I like'em both.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 11:43 PM
Why, because they're smart? And devious? And tricky? Hell, kobolds are the same thing and yet people seem to love them.

Double standard.

Kobolds at least give you the dignity of being treated as an active threat, and wanting you dead. IE, the same motives as everything else to stain ol' stabby.

Gnomes treat you like a dense first grader, and expect you to be grateful for the "fun".

Also, you're less likely to be allowed to kill them.

(Mind, this makes them perfectly viable fun for the DM, and even the players in some circumstances. It just means adventurers hate them.)

GoatToucher
2009-08-04, 11:54 PM
I'm obviously a gnome fan (I mean, come on. My board name is taken from one of my Gnomish rogue/illusionists).


I had a 2ed gnome fighter named Gned Knorqfin (the q is silent), and a WoW Warlock named Gnethaniel.

I am easily amused and not very creative.

What I disliked about the gnomish 3.x (mechanically speaking) upgrade is how halflings do everything gnomes do better then gnomes. The only distinguishing characteristics are the innate spells.

Also, I like my halflings portly with hairy feet. The new tiny pointy-skulled human schtick reminds me of that bane to all roleplay: the Kender.

Do you know what happens to Kender in groups where they are not protected by author's mandate? Intense physical abuse to condition them against being so egregiously and intentionally aggravating. This usually resulted in much pouting from the Kender's player, as the sole appeal to playing a kender was the license to be a pain in the ass.

/rant

One of a halfling's primary concerns needs to be lunch, or you can keep him, sez I.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 11:57 PM
I had a 2ed gnome fighter named Gned Knorqfin (the q is silent), and a WoW Warlock named Gnethaniel.

I am easily amused and not very creative.

What I disliked about the gnomish 3.x (mechanically speaking) upgrade is how halflings do everything gnomes do better then gnomes. The only distinguishing characteristics are the innate spells.

Also, I like my halflings portly with hairy feet. The new tiny pointy-skulled human schtick reminds me of that bane to all roleplay: the Kender.

Do you know what happens to Kender in groups where they are not protected by author's mandate? Intense physical abuse to condition them against being so egregiously and intentionally aggravating. This usually resulted in much pouting from the Kender's player, as the sole appeal to playing a kender was the license to be a pain in the ass.

/rant

One of a halfling's primary concerns needs to be lunch, or you can keep him, sez I.

What about second breakfasts? And Elevensies?

Devils_Advocate
2009-08-05, 12:37 AM
Why, because they're smart? And devious? And tricky? Hell, kobolds are the same thing and yet people seem to love them.
Well, to be fair, gnomes are pranksters, meaning basically that they'll annoy random people for fun. Kobolds don't just target anyone for kicks; they just happen to be really, really big on getting back at anyone who pisses them off, and also fairly easy to piss off.

So gnomes are obnoxious twerps, and kobolds want to painfully kill all of the world's obnoxious twerps on the theory that they deserve it. It's frankly very understandable that a whole bunch of people side with the kobolds, because they represent a very sympathetic sort of Evil if you have to put up with a lot of aggravating crap from people, and a whole lot of people do.


Gnomes treat you like a dense first grader
So, the same reason that people dislike elves so much: They act like they're superior to you, and you know they're right?

I mean, when someone plainly inferior to you acts all superior, it can be comical how ignorant or transparently full of it they are, right? Like, if some little six year old says he knows more than you, or that he can beat you at arm wrestling, it's funny and kind of cute. But when someone genuinely smarter than you says that he's smarter than you, that's offensive.

Humans do seem to either resent or worship their betters, with little middle ground. I'm not sure why. But they do, to the point that speaking well of oneself is a serious taboo.

I can easily see non-human races not having that at all, in a world where they're not psychological clones of humans. (And they don't typically want to personally rule the world, or form lots of little subcultures, or do a bunch of other human things.)

GoatToucher
2009-08-05, 12:55 AM
What about second breakfasts? And Elevensies?

Crucial. Absolutely.

Stormthorn
2009-08-05, 01:29 AM
I like my gnomes like a like my coffee. Mixed with chocolate and poured over ice.

Leon
2009-08-05, 01:50 AM
I like my gnomes with the word "whisper" in front of it

This

Otherwise i like them toasted with a side order of chips and salad

Myrmex
2009-08-05, 02:11 AM
I just realized I play gnomes like they're a race of /b/tards who do everything for The Lulz.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-05, 02:22 AM
So. How do you like 'em?

extra crispy. original recipe isn't crunchy enough.*

*apologies if this joke has been made already.

Coidzor
2009-08-05, 02:24 AM
Myrmex, that's adventurers in general. :smallamused:

Gnorman
2009-08-05, 03:20 AM
extra crispy. original recipe isn't crunchy enough.*

*apologies if this joke has been made already.

NOT BUT SERIOUSLY.

The gnomes "cooked in some fashion" joke has been made a thousand times in this thread alone.

Tiiiime to find a new joooooke.

Innis Cabal
2009-08-05, 03:23 AM
NOT BUT SERIOUSLY.

The gnomes "cooked in some fashion" joke has been made a thousand times in this thread alone.

Tiiiime to find a new joooooke.

Fine. I like my gnomes like I like my footballs. Filled with enough air and ready for the super bowl.

ghost_warlock
2009-08-05, 03:24 AM
Not a year dead then brought back?

Too subtle. Try this:

Egads! Three pages more on a necromanced thread!?

Eldan
2009-08-05, 03:39 AM
Fine. I like my gnomes like I like my footballs. Filled with enough air and ready for the super bowl.

I hate gnomes like I hate d4s. You don't see them until they hurt your feet. :smallbiggrin:

Harperfan7
2009-08-05, 03:41 AM
Too subtle. Try this:

Egads! Three pages more on a necromanced thread!?

For being so hated, they're pretty popular.

Gnorman
2009-08-05, 05:28 AM
For being so hated, they're pretty popular.

They inspire very... heated... reactions. Dichotomous, but heated.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-05, 06:20 AM
I like my gnomes in two flavors.

Wild, hospitable to adventurers, but very easily offended, protective of their homes. Druids.

Civilized, entertaining and gossipy. Bards.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-05, 09:44 AM
I think the real problem is that Wizards of the Coast hates gnomes. (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/29753.html) Every edition they've put out has further degraded the gnome.

Toliudar
2009-08-05, 09:56 AM
I'm planning a campaign in which PC's come from a continent devoid of any small-sized races with any significant populations. They sail across to a land where LE Chaositech Wizard and Cleric Gnomes (Krynn gnomes who are actually GOOD at it) rule the land, with an enslaved race of kobolds (representing natural and spontaneous magic) are fighting a rebellion for their freedom. I know that my RL gaming group is split, with at least one kobold-loving and two gnome-loving players in the group. Ideally, the campaign should be able to unfold just fine whether they decide to help the gnomes or the kobolds.

Just as orcs get re-envisioned as everything from cavemen to Klingons, I like gnomes as a race that seems to adapt to a variety of plot-related templates.

Fitz
2009-08-05, 10:29 AM
oddly the only gnomes appearing in any game i ran were the wild gnomes of the northern heaths, woaded barbarian savages with strange innate powers, commonly barbarians, druids or sorcerers, with a pictish flavour. Though they could choose a tribe each of which got a different set of sla's and no asf on the sla
Fitz

Decoy Lockbox
2009-08-05, 11:13 AM
I like my gnomes dead. I find gnomes (at least as they are portrayed in most fantasy games, especially D&D and WoW) insufferable, as do most of the people I game with. In the current campaign I am running, which takes place during the 4e "winter war", I explained the lack of gnomes in the world by having the dwarves eat them when their food supplies grew too low.

I think my hatred for gnomes stems from my dislike for whatever "cutesy race" happens to be in a setting: kender, gnomes, windlings (from Earthdawn), etc.

Anxe
2009-08-05, 11:20 AM
I like my gnomes to be called Halflings, which is exactly what I did in my campaign. Gnomes are just a sub-species of Halflings, like how Drow are a sub-species of elves. None of my players played one though. In fact in my nine years of playing and DMing I've only seen a gnome played by a PC once. Once...

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-05, 11:27 AM
I like my gnomes like a like my coffee. Mixed with chocolate and poured over ice.

Respectfully, coffee does not work that way!


I like my gnomes dead. I find gnomes (at least as they are portrayed in most fantasy games, especially D&D and WoW) insufferable, as do most of the people I game with. In the current campaign I am running, which takes place during the 4e "winter war", I explained the lack of gnomes in the world by having the dwarves eat them when their food supplies grew too low.

I think my hatred for gnomes stems from my dislike for whatever "cutesy race" happens to be in a setting: kender, gnomes, windlings (from Earthdawn), etc.

I like gnomes in their many incarnations. A lot of people I know (and some of my players) anyway, share your same feelings. The same words, I could say. This always seemed to me odd, but I see, it's very common. Matter of tastes, I guess.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-05, 11:32 AM
Respectfully, coffee does not work that way!

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/LesInCo/morboapproves.jpg

Anyway, I don't really see why most people don't like Gnomes. When I was reading the races, I was thinking that a Gnome (to be honest, Half-Dragon gnome) Druid would be an awesome character.

Maybe I'll need to do something. I will make a world where Gnomes are the dominate species. And publish it. And sell no copies.

Yora
2009-08-05, 11:34 AM
I like my gnomes to be called Halflings, which is exactly what I did in my campaign. Gnomes are just a sub-species of Halflings, like how Drow are a sub-species of elves. None of my players played one though. In fact in my nine years of playing and DMing I've only seen a gnome played by a PC once. Once...

I called my halflings gnomes. There's not really much difference when you ignore the gypsy lifestyle and the spell-like abilities. I picked "gnomes", because I don't like the word "halfling" that much. But one name is as good as the other.

Devils_Advocate
2009-08-05, 06:04 PM
I agree that halflings and gnomes could reasonably be combined into one race. They're not all that different from each other, and they could still be distinct cultures. You could also combine orcs with hobgoblins and kobolds with goblins, if you want to pare down the number of races. A lot of races are sort of redundant with each other. Heck, mindflayers and aboleths are both Lawful Evil mastermind aberrations who mentally enslave people.

(Similarly, in a minimalist setting, there would only be one Neutral Evil deity for secretive necromancer cultists to worship, because you really don't need any more than that.)

Upon reflection, Small-sized races tend to be rather childlike, don't they? Whether they be halflings, gnomes, kender, or whatever. Or stranger things like pixies, even. So long as they're small and cute. Meanwhile, non-cute little monsters like kobolds are allowed to be more dignified.

All of which is fine, so long as they're childlike in ways that allow them to form self-sustaining communities, and not blow themselves up or convince everyone to kill them. I gather that Dragonlance is a bit dubious on that point.

In Eberron, on the other hand, gnomes are sinister conspirators and halflings are badass dinosaur-riding barbarians. Eberron doesn't really seem to do silly.

Gnorman
2009-08-05, 06:06 PM
In Eberron, on the other hand, gnomes are sinister conspirators and halflings are badass dinosaur-riding barbarians. Eberron doesn't really seem to do silly.

Eberron just basically does Bad Ass.

Zilargo gnomes are my favorite gnomes. They enjoy blackmail... as a hobby.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-05, 07:04 PM
Fey, odd little tricksters that replace Halflings.

Halflings are so boring to me.

Stormthorn
2009-08-06, 12:34 AM
NOT BUT SERIOUSLY.

The gnomes "cooked in some fashion" joke has been made a thousand times in this thread alone.

Tiiiime to find a new joooooke.

Hey! Mine were part of a drink, not cooked.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-08-06, 01:11 AM
In a shared campaign setting my group uses, the Gnomes are refugees from another world who live in two nations to the Southeast of the Luxan Empire, the largest human nation. Their technology is centuries ahead of the surrounding cultures, which means in a low-magic setting they're virtually untouchable. Fortunately for everyone else, Gnomes have no interest in conquest and would much rather sell, particularly to the vast and resource-rich Luxan Empire. What they sell is actually their centuries-old "junk," which catapaulted the setting from Antuiqarian cultures in the Middle Ages to a Pike-and-Shot Early Modern setting overnight (think Romans with flintlock guns and Germanians wielding zweihanders and pikes, you get the idea).

Of course, Gnomes keep the sweet stuff---airships, steamboats, oil lanterns, chemical matches, spinning machines, etc.---to themselves. They laid a single railroad track across the eastern border of the Luxans and gave the Empire railgun-toting traincars to guard that end of the Empire, for mutual protection. The humans CAN replicate a Gnomish steam-engine (just like the historical Romans actually could have built a steam engine) but don't have much practical use for it since their highways, carriages and massive slave class suit them fine.

What really sets apart the Gnomes is their whole attitude--they're like 19th Century yankees, as I envision them (right down to wearing trousers and suit jackets while everyone else is in tunics and togas): progressivist, capitalist (there is, in fact, a large Gnome worker-class, but you'll never hear from them if you're an outsider), and utterly confident in their superiority to the primitives around them. Of course, Gnomes are usually nice---famous for their sense of humor, in fact---but don't think for a second they think smelly, violent and primitive mankind is anywhere on par with the Gnomes.

Yora
2009-08-06, 02:38 AM
You could also combine orcs with hobgoblins
check.

and kobolds with goblins
(almost) check.

I also combined trolls and ogers; ogrilons and half-trolls; bugbears, orogs, and minotaurs; merfolk and tritons; combined dryads, najads and oreads under 'nymph'.

D&D really has a lot of redundancies. You can drastically cut down on the number of species without losing anything flavor-wise.
And I still end up with 18 humanoid races, discounting cartloads of rare solitary fey.

kpenguin
2009-08-06, 02:41 AM
In Eberron, on the other hand, gnomes are sinister conspirators and halflings are badass dinosaur-riding barbarians. Eberron doesn't really seem to do silly.

A lot of Eberron-haters would disagree with you with cries of "magic trains"

I am not among them. Rock on, dinosaur riding halflings running alongside lightning rails while magic robots fight on top, rock on.:smallcool:

Yora
2009-08-06, 03:20 AM
You can't hate Eberron!

It may be not the type of fantasy setting you prefer. But you'd still have to admit it's awsome. :smallbiggrin:

Farlion
2009-08-06, 03:31 AM
So. How do you like 'em?

Medium rare.

Cheers,
Farlion

Yora
2009-08-06, 03:35 AM
You, Sir, win the Internet!

This joke has never been done before!

Serpentine
2009-08-06, 03:40 AM
In my world, there are more or less 3 "cultures" of gnomes:

Goblin Isle gnomes (the Goblin Isles being their homeland(s)) are somewhere between the Caribbean and naval Europe. It's a big archipeligo, containing countless gnomish city- and island-states, most of which are at war with each other at one time or another, with near-constantly shifting alliances. It's also full of Just Plain Pirates (or, if you will, privateers). Much gnomish ingenuity and tinkering goes into improving ships, defenses and war machines, although they are in the process of developing warforged as, basically, plantation (and similar) slaves. These gnomes are nationalistic (or at least patriotic), quick and clever, tinkery, and ocean-going.

Cliffton gnomes are basically Goblin Isle gnomes who have, recently or several generations ago, moved into the Highland (think the colder parts of Europe) city of Clifton. These are, more or less, your typical tinker-gnomes. Largely freed from the constraints of warcraft (oh shush, you know what I mean :smalltongue:), their ingenuity can spread into whatever fields they like.

Mainland gnomes are the "Jews"* of this world. They are the money-lenders, bankers and investors. They tend to be both heavily employed and (fairly or not) heavily mistrusted. These gnomes are savvy businessmen, clever, sly, fond of their luxuries, and not uncommonly prejudiced against (is there a better word for that?).


*In the sense of the common medieval role of these people.

Farlion
2009-08-06, 03:45 AM
You, Sir, win the Internet!

This joke has never been done before!

I know, that's why I had to do it!


Now that I own the internet, I can tell you, that the gnomes in my campaign are gypsies!

All hail gypsie gnomes!

Cheers,
Farlion

Teron
2009-08-06, 04:15 AM
Eberron gnomes are creepy not only because they're obsessed with secrets and intrigue, but because they've got pretty much everyone else convinced that they're an entire race of friendly, boring clerks. For instance, in most nations, gnomes often work as lawyers; in their homeland of Zilargo, there are no courts -- only the Trust:


Dorilan Del Caroldan sipped his tal and studied the map on the table. "The first temple to the Mockery -- just imagine what secrets it must hold! But this is one ruin you'll never raid, Solas."

The half-orc roared with laughter. "I'm sure it will be dangerous, Dorilan, but we've faced far worse. I've spent more time in Xen'drik than I have in the Marches. Don't worry, my little friend -- we'll keep you safe on the journey."

"It's not my safety that worries me, or the dangers of Xen'drik. Bursting into the Preceptor's estate, spilling blood in the light of day, beating that merchant for information -- that's not how things are done here."

Solas smiled and took a deep draught of his koreshk ale. Gnomes and their sense of propriety. The funny little man wouldn't last a day in Sharn. "Why not? I haven't seen a guardsman since I arrived. I've never seen a softer city." He looked at the door. "What's keeping Kyrna and Jaral? It's been nearly an hour."

"They're both dead," Dorilan said. But he wasn't Dorilan any more.

Solas' hand flew to the hilt of his sword, but his muscles turned to ice before he could draw. He strained with all his might, but he could not move.

The gnome smiled, revealing the ivory wand she'd kept hidden beneath the table. She was younger than Dorilan, and dressed in darkweave and leather. "We believe the best guards are those that remain unseen." Silvered steel glittered as a dagger appeared in her hand.

Like everything else, Gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) are cooler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) in Eberron.

DrGonzo
2009-08-06, 07:05 AM
I prefer them as 13th level bards, with whip daggers..

"Aw, that's cute!"

CRACK

"AAHHRGH MY FACE IS BLEEDING!!!"

Watcher
2009-08-06, 08:29 PM
I hate gnomes. They take the inventiveness from Dwarves' craftiness, have automatic magic, are short, and are annoying twits. Most of all, their race is composed of idiots. Whoever thought "Gnomish Magnetic Armor" was a good idea? And the stupid, useless machines they have lying around that do nothing prodcutive?! It makes the other races feel "Hey, that was our idea for a racial trait!" and they don't even have the awesomeness to make up for it. Dangit, Garl Glittergold! Dangit!

Eldan
2009-08-07, 02:37 AM
Just a little example of what my gnomes did in the campaign's backstory (remember, they officially don't exist and live in invisible, flying fortresses):

These are some old newspaper articles:

"Sarazan Gandor, Wizard of the 13th circle, suffocated today while trying to break the alititude record for overland flight. Researchers see this as proof for their theory that air is thinner at great heights."

"Inventor Terion Vorr, famous for his public announcement declaring that he would have created a flying ship before the end of the year, today stated in an interview that the construction would be delayed because the noble house of Blackwood, as well as the moneylenders of Kraal, withdrew founding. He goes on to say that his prototypes still suffer from spontaneous, inexplicable explosion of the fuel reserves when reaching certain altitudes."

Drakevarg
2009-08-07, 02:44 AM
I like my gnomes as foot-tall plaster sculptures, to be used as target practice when in a bad mood. When I am not in a bad mood, they make decent garden ornaments.

Personally, I just don't get DnD's midget-fetish.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-07, 04:28 AM
You can't hate Eberron!

It may be not the type of fantasy setting you prefer. But you'd still have to admit it's awsome. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, but I can. :smallyuk: Between finding all the 'cool' stuff usually somewhere between lame and goofy, and the fanboys I've run into, I've been put off Eberron pretty much forever.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-08-07, 01:14 PM
Eberron gnomes are creepy not only because they're obsessed with secrets and intrigue, but because they've got pretty much everyone else convinced that they're an entire race of friendly, boring clerks. For instance, in most nations, gnomes often work as lawyers; in their homeland of Zilargo, there are no courts -- only the Trust:



Like everything else, Gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) are cooler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) in Eberron.

So apparently wizards totally pwn entire parties even in the fluff....great :smallannoyed:

In addition to hating the cutesy, whacky inventor thing they have going on, I just find really short races to be funny. And not in a good way. Seriously, I do not nor will I ever find the idea of a gnome barbarian threatening in the least. The gnome wizard in that story was frightening not because she was a gnome, but because she was a wizard.


What really sets apart the Gnomes is their whole attitude--they're like 19th Century yankees, as I envision them (right down to wearing trousers and suit jackets while everyone else is in tunics and togas): progressivist, capitalist (there is, in fact, a large Gnome worker-class, but you'll never hear from them if you're an outsider), and utterly confident in their superiority to the primitives around them. Of course, Gnomes are usually nice---famous for their sense of humor, in fact---but don't think for a second they think smelly, violent and primitive mankind is anywhere on par with the Gnomes.

This is actually a really cool idea, mind if I steal it?

SurlySeraph
2009-08-07, 04:42 PM
I like my gnomes eccentric, extremely creative, and rare. They're not always stupid and destructive, but they tend to take risks and have trouble foreseeing the consequences of their actions. High-level gnomes are like that one Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann character who replies to "You wouldn't be so stupid as to fire on me at such close range!" with "Unfortunately, we ARE that stupid." *BOOM*. They care a lot more about whether what they're doing is awesome than whether it's safe or reasonable.
But, as I mentioned, gnomes are rare. Their attitude of "If it sounds cool, do it!" means they tend to get themselves killed quite easily. The safest gnomes are the ones who live in dwarf or halfling communities (gnomes are very metropolitan, never xenophobic), where everyone keeps watch on them to make sure they know how to repeat any experiments that might be useful, and to stop them whenever they get up to something really dangerous.
I usually prefer tinker gnomes, but gnomes who experiment with magic are equally viable and interesting. Gnome fighters are virtually all martial adepts, and far more interested in coming up with cool superpowerful moves than in having a good grasp of the basics. They very much tend to be glass cannons.
In the homebrew setting I'm working on, gnomes are half-halfling, half-dwarf crossbreeds. The idea was that combining dwarven work ethic with halfling spontaneity would lead to a community of genius inventors. The way it turned out, gnomes work obsessively when they find something they're interested in, but flit between interests quite readily, leaving incredibly promising but incomplete prototypes in their wake. Most technological advances (in this setting, the assorted short races have near-steampunk technology) are due to halflings and dwarves taking something a gnome invented (which no one else could have imagined, much less figured out how to make) and then actually bothering to work out all the bugs.