I'm worried about my Barbarian build being survivable

[Draz74]

This point-buy build only has 9 points for DEX & CON, due to the need to max Strength and (for character concept and eventual multiclass choices) Charisma. So I need to decide:
14 DEX, 10 CON
12 DEX, 12 CON
10 DEX, 14 CON

Furthermore, I wish the build had three hands: one for a shield, one for a regular weapon, and one for grabbing and shoving. But it doesn't. So I need to decide whether to cut the shield (hurting my survivability more) or whether to keep a shield but switch the other hand between Unarmed and Improvised Weapons.

What will make this the most effective character they can be?

[Unoriginal]

This point-buy build only has 9 points for DEX & CON, due to the need to max Strength and (for character concept and eventual multiclass choices) Charisma. So I need to decide:
14 DEX, 10 CON
12 DEX, 12 CON
10 DEX, 14 CON

Furthermore, I wish the build had three hands: one for a shield, one for a regular weapon, and one for grabbing and shoving. But it doesn't. So I need to decide whether to cut the shield (hurting my survivability more) or whether to keep a shield but switch the other hand between Unarmed and Improvised Weapons.

What will make this the most effective character they can be?

A few question first:

-Why do you need max STR?

-Do you mind using armor?

-Which subclass are you going for, if any?

-Which species will your Barbarian be?

[Draz74]

A few question first:

-Why do you need max STR?
For offense ... both weapons and Grab/Shove. I don't like counting on my characters being based on items like Gauntlets of Ogre Power if that's what you had in mind. So I'm trying to get 20 STR by Level 9 ...


-Do you mind using armor?
Not at all, I plan on a medium-armored character.


-Which subclass are you going for, if any?
Zealot. The tentative plan for the whole level 20 build is Zealot Barbarian 6 / Watchers Paladin 8 / Eloquence Bard 6.


-Which species will your Barbarian be?
VHuman.

Starting Abilities: STR 17 (with Crusher), DEX ?, CON ?, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16
Final Abilities: STR 20, CHA 20

[Silly Name]

Honestly, I would "give up" on maxing both STR and CHA. I sort of understand what you're going for, but - like straight Paladins - you have to accept prioritising one over the other. If you want to get the most out of your Bard and Paladin levels, then prioritise CHA.

Honestly, I'd prioritise CON over DEX - you're obviously going to be a frontliner, so being able to take the hits is more important than just dodging them.



Zealot. The tentative plan for the whole level 20 build is Zealot Barbarian 6 / Watchers Paladin 8 / Eloquence Bard 6.

VHuman.

Starting Abilities: STR 17 (with Crusher), DEX ?, CON ?, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16
Final Abilities: STR 20, CHA 20

Honestly, I would just change your starting array - that odd score in STR isn't doing you any good if you don't plan to round it out with another half-feat, nor have another odd score to bring up.

I'd start like this:

STR 16 (Crusher, racial +1) DEX 12 CON 15 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 15 (racial +1)

At Barbarian level 4, use your first ASI to bring STR up to 18. Your first Paladin ASI will be used to even out CON and CHA, bringing them both at 16, which leaves you with 3 easy on your planned build, enough to max out both STR and CHA as you wanted.

[Draz74]

Honestly, I would "give up" on maxing both STR and CHA. I sort of understand what you're going for, but - like straight Paladins - you have to accept prioritising one over the other. If you want to get the most out of your Bard and Paladin levels, then prioritise CHA.
If I give up on 20 in STR and CHA, then I'll give up on 20 CHA specifically. This is supposed to be first and foremost a Strong character.


Honestly, I'd prioritise CON over DEX - you're obviously going to be a frontliner, so being able to take the hits is more important than just dodging them.
That's what I'm looking for. Thanks for weighing in!

I think you might be right ... unless the theoretical party also has a Guardian Armorer Artificer in it, which I'm considering, to make attacks against the "Bardbarbadin" have disadvantage much of the time. A lot of attacks will miss AC 17 (but not AC 15) with Disadvantage, right?


Honestly, I would just change your starting array - that odd score in STR isn't doing you any good if you don't plan to round it out with another half-feat, nor have another odd score to bring up.
Yeah, I know, I was planning on a half-feat (Tavern Brawler) at 4. Or maybe even switching Tavern Brawler to 1 and taking Crusher at 4.


I'd start like this:

STR 16 (Crusher, racial +1) DEX 12 CON 15 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 15 (racial +1)

At Barbarian level 4, use your first ASI to bring STR up to 18. Your first Paladin ASI will be used to even out CON and CHA, bringing them both at 16, which leaves you with 3 easy on your planned build, enough to max out both STR and CHA as you wanted.
I think you're overcounting my ASIs by one.

[JellyPooga]

I agree that Cha doesn't need to max out for this build; I'd happily leave that at 16, even 14 in lieu of better Dex/Con. Focus spells on buffs that don't need attack rolls and saves, or use them for Smites. Dusted.

With Medium armour, you don't need more Dex than 14 and as far as the three hands thing goes, well, hands are the martial concentration; you get two and have to deal with it just like a Wizard only gets one concentration slot.

For me, I'd start this build, lvl.1 with;
Str:15+1, Dex:14, Con:13+1, Int:8, Wis:10, Cha:12

Starting Feat: (+1 Str) Crusher or Tavern Brawler (either/or)
Barb 4th: +1 Str (18), +1 Cha (gives you the 13 Cha you need to MC)
Paladin 4th: The other feat you didn't get at 1st (+1Str)
Paladin 8th: +1 Str (to 20), +1 Cha (to 14)
Bard 4th: +2 Cha

That's me.

[Draz74]

I agree that Cha doesn't need to max out for this build; I'd happily leave that at 16, even 14 in lieu of better Dex/Con. Focus spells on buffs that don't need attack rolls and saves, or use them for Smites. Dusted.
Yeah spell DCs/attacks are pretty insignificant for this build, the main reason for CHA is Aura of Protection. Which, the way other forums Reddit talks about it, is a pretty significant part of the whole party's defenses and thus supremely important. But maybe I'm overvaluing it.

I do also want the character to have great Persuasion, Intimidation, Dulcimer checks. But eh. Surviving is more important than these.


For me, I'd start this build, lvl.1 with;
Str:15+1, Dex:14, Con:13+1, Int:8, Wis:10, Cha:12

Starting Feat: (+1 Str) Crusher or Tavern Brawler (either/or)
Barb 4th: +1 Str (18), +1 Cha (gives you the 13 Cha you need to MC)
Paladin 4th: The other feat you didn't get at 1st (+1Str)
Paladin 8th: +1 Str (to 20), +1 Cha (to 14)
Bard 4th: +2 Cha

That's me.

Fair option.

[JonBeowulf]

I agree that Cha doesn't need to max out for this build; I'd happily leave that at 16, even 14 in lieu of better Dex/Con. Focus spells on buffs that don't need attack rolls and saves, or use them for Smites. Dusted.

With Medium armour, you don't need more Dex than 14 and as far as the three hands thing goes, well, hands are the martial concentration; you get two and have to deal with it just like a Wizard only gets one concentration slot.

For me, I'd start this build, lvl.1 with;
Str:15+1, Dex:14, Con:13+1, Int:8, Wis:10, Cha:12

Starting Feat: (+1 Str) Crusher or Tavern Brawler (either/or)
Barb 4th: +1 Str (18), +1 Cha (gives you the 13 Cha you need to MC)
Paladin 4th: The other feat you didn't get at 1st (+1Str)
Paladin 8th: +1 Str (to 20), +1 Cha (to 14)
Bard 4th: +2 Cha

That's me.
Upvoting.

My first paladin tried to balance STR and CHA but I ended up doing exactly what JellyPooga said... non-attack/-save spells and smites. Heck, Aura of Protection wasn't even much of a gamechanger. All subsequent pally's capped at 14 CHA and were very effective. I've never done the multiclass, but a 20 STR Barb/Pally is not to be ignored.

[Draz74]

Whew, now I'm being semi-flamed on Discord by two people saying this build is, not just suboptimal, but actively terribad even for a mid-op game. Fun times.

[JonBeowulf]

Haters gotta hate. The optimizer minigame is fun but it's not the only game in town.

[Silly Name]

Whew, now I'm being semi-flamed on Discord by two people saying this build is, not just suboptimal, but actively terribad even for a mid-op game. Fun times.

To balance the needlessly harsh criticism with some anecdotes, I'm playing a Half-Elf Oath of the Ancients Paladin/College of Creation Bard, with 16 STR and 18 CHA, in a rather challenging campaign. Due to story reasons, the party is currently in dungeon without him, and everyone agrees his absence is very much felt: the Fighter/Rogue has to tank in his place, the Artificer and Bard are pulling double duty to heal everyone else, and the Hexblade Warlock is doing mostly fine.

On constructive criticism, I must admit I'm not sure how much mileage you'll be getting out of Eloquence Bard - I suppose it's more of a roleplay-related multiclass than anything else. But it's not like it makes your character actively *bad*.

[CTurbo]

I recommend starting Half-Elf and you could have 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, and 14 Cha. Crusher is nice and all, but not really one of those character defining feats like PAM, GWM, or SS. You want 20 Str for sure, but could be ok with 16 Cha and 18 Cha would be great. I don't think I'd worry about maxing it.

it sounds like a really fun character concept, and as long as you're ok with not being completely optimized, it would be ok at higher levels. If you want to be more optimized, either drop one of the 3 classes completely or take a much smaller dip. 8, 6, 6 is going to feel weaker than a 14,6 split or something like 11, 6, 3 IMO.

[Draz74]

Thanks for continuing to engage, all ... suggestions are good, I'm still refining the idea.


I recommend starting Half-Elf and you could have 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, and 14 Cha. Crusher is nice and all, but not really one of those character defining feats like PAM, GWM, or SS. You want 20 Str for sure, but could be ok with 16 Cha and 18 Cha would be great. I don't think I'd worry about maxing it.

it sounds like a really fun character concept, and as long as you're ok with not being completely optimized, it would be ok at higher levels. If you want to be more optimized, either drop one of the 3 classes completely or take a much smaller dip. 8, 6, 6 is going to feel weaker than a 14,6 split or something like 11, 6, 3 IMO.

The current thought is to alleviate the MAD by counting on the party Artificer to contribute Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belt of Hill Giant Strength, if the character doesn't just happen to find these items. I'm also thinking of taking your suggestion that I drop Crusher (but still be VHuman). With this setup, I can start with 14 DEX & CON, max Charisma, and even have an extra Feat at level 20. I'm thinking that feat should be Polearm Master, but I could be persuaded otherwise.

[Draz74]

Actually maybe Polearm Master isn't a great choice, due to how Bardic Inspiration will eat so many Bonus Actions. What should I take instead?


On constructive criticism, I must admit I'm not sure how much mileage you'll be getting out of Eloquence Bard - I suppose it's more of a roleplay-related multiclass than anything else. But it's not like it makes your character actively *bad*.

Bard is rapid advancement of spell slots for Smiting, and Eloquence subclass features Unsettling Words and Unfailing Inspiration seem pretty strong for using Inspiration dice to me. Which can be done while Raging.

[TalksAlone]

The thing about Barbarian AC in general is that it often doesn't matter due to Reckless Attack providing your foes Advantage on attack rolls against you. Instead High CON and Damage Resistances are supposed to do the job in these situations.

Regardless of STR/CHA distribution, I'd get 16 CON before even considering investing in DEX beyond a basic 10 or even 8, but to each their own.

[JellyPooga]

The thing about Barbarian AC in general is that it often doesn't matter due to Reckless Attack providing your foes Advantage on attack rolls against you. Instead High CON and Damage Resistances are supposed to do the job in these situations.

Regardless of STR/CHA distribution, I'd get 16 CON before even considering investing in DEX beyond a basic 10 or even 8, but to each their own.

Barbarian really cares a lot about Initiative and doubly so if they're tanking their AC, because they don't resist damage until they get a turn. With good HP efficiency once they've activated Rage, the bonus HP from Con is less important to the Barabrian than activating that efficiency. I would be very wary of dumping Dex as a Barbarian, even with Feral Instinct offering Advantage.

[TalksAlone]

Barbarian really cares a lot about Initiative and doubly so if they're tanking their AC, because they don't resist damage until they get a turn. With good HP efficiency once they've activated Rage, the bonus HP from Con is less important to the Barabrian than activating that efficiency. I would be very wary of dumping Dex as a Barbarian, even with Feral Instinct offering Advantage.

I feel you worry, though logical, is blown out of proportion. The damage that one would recieve during that round without resistance very rarely will exceed the differential, since to do your job adequately you need to Reckless Attack anyways.

So effectively with a 14 to 20 DEX compared to a worst case 8 DEX, wearing medium armor is always a 3 AC difference. During the first turn by going first and Recklessly Attacking you effectively gave yourself -5 AC, meaning your effective AC is 2 lower until the 8 DEX barbarian Recklessly Attacks on their turn.

Is this very short window enough for the CON>DEX barb to take [(2 to 5)* number of Hit Dice + (Damage taken by the DEX>CON barb)/2] worth of damage, given during this time the CON>DEX barb has an AC advantage and accounting for enemies criting?

I'd say usually no. Then the second turn comes and you have higher Effective HP, and a Higher CON save.

Edit: Worth mentioning, I'd still say a higher DEX than 8 is desirable over, say, maxed CHA. I just chose that value to illustrate my point and because this particular build suffers from MAD.