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Hallavast
2007-12-17, 05:31 AM
A long time player in my D&D group will be Dungeon Mastering his first campaign next week, and there is some indecision about how to generate ability scores. Normally, we run very high-powered games, and we roll 4d6 drop the lowest reroll all 1's.

Now, since we are using the Eberron setting for the first time, we've recently noticed that Eberron is a rather low-level setting and having huge starting stats somehow wouldn't fit in quite so nicely. So we seek and alternative. Which do you prefer?

-roll 4d6 drop the lowest?

-standard stat allotment?

-25pt. buy?

-28pt. buy?

-32pt. buy?

-some other point buy amount?

-something different altogether?

Also, on a separate but related note, do you generally prefer to generate your stats before or after you come up with your character concept? Before or after your background/personality? Just curious.

Dhavaer
2007-12-17, 05:33 AM
32 point buy for D&D, 42 point buy for Modern.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-17, 05:38 AM
Also, on a separate but related note, do you generally prefer to generate your stats before or after you come up with your character concept? Before or after your background/personality? Just curious.

After - but note that this may be tricky with random stats generation (you may not get the stats for the concept you want). That, plus the reason that it's fairer, is why I always use point buy. 30, generally.

I think it's just wrong that a player will permanently have a better character just because he got lucky on a single dice roll months ago when we started playing.

Green Bean
2007-12-17, 05:38 AM
I like my ability generation to be 58 point buy.

What I get, though, is usually 32 point buy, 42 in especially heroic games.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-17, 05:44 AM
5d4-2...that has always worked pretty good for me...

one of our DMs likes his campaigns with 'beefy' characters that are superior to the 'norm' and well above average...mainly so he can torment us without guilt that it might be too much. he says 4d6, drop lowest reroll any 1 or 2. Pretty much the same as 3d6, drop lowest+7 or 9-18.

4d6 drop lowest has always been good to me though...but I do have another method that involves that too which makes things more interesting. Players like to roll stats and get the best bang for their buck most of the time...so if we have plenty of time for creation, I offer an alternative...since players sometimes ask for a reroll if their stats just suck, I tell them to make a matrix. 6x6 fill in by row or column one entry at a time. The player is allowed to choose one row, or one column from the matrix. (Diagnal is sometimes ok...depends on my mood) It gives a way to have 12 different combinations only rolling 6 stat groups...usually makes players happy with the results without being overpowered. Some bad luck in the wrong places can make the matrix fairly painful...if your only 18's are in line with a 7...that just blows...

Zenos
2007-12-17, 05:46 AM
32 point buy, although I realy like 40 and 50 point buy. Anyways, I usualy come up with character concept before I put down stats.

SilverClawShift
2007-12-17, 06:00 AM
Wow, we do a 26 point buy. We've done 28 and 30 too, but we always come back to 26.

Enough to make a 1rst level character completely above average compared to a common person, with one exceptional stat. Or you can tweak to have it however, but that's the baseline numbers we use.

leperkhaun
2007-12-17, 06:04 AM
either a 32 point buy or 4d6 drop the lowest.

the 32 point buy has some advantages over 4d6, namely you can put what stat where you want (if you know you want an 18 you can get it) and it tends to make sure all the characters are balanced stat wise.

however 4d6 does have the potential to give you straight 16's.... just depends.

sun_tzu
2007-12-17, 06:08 AM
Point buy. I can't stand it when character generation depends on random factors.

KIDS
2007-12-17, 06:10 AM
28 point buy or maybe 10+1d6, both seem pretty mild while still effective.

p.s. I think rolling first is better, rolling after can just make for unpleasant surprises and I'm not convinced that it encourages any better roleplay.

Reinboom
2007-12-17, 06:11 AM
16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 9
+2 points you can put anywhere you want.

This has worked rather well.

Oh, and 6+2d6 I have considered. But really don't like rolling for stats. Ever. Or HP.

Attilargh
2007-12-17, 06:16 AM
The one found in the book: Six times 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as desired, reroll if utter crap. You know, the one all the monsters are expecting. I just can't see the point of scaling everything up so that it presents a challenge to the "superhuman" characters. Who really aren't that superhuman, because everything they will be compared against will be equally superhuman, making the "super" part of superhuman rather superfluous.

Or, if I'm playing with this one guy whose dice hand is just awesome, a 27 point buy. Tops. I once played Saga with the Elite Array and liked it quite a bit, so I might try that again.

Hallavast
2007-12-17, 06:38 AM
The one found in the book: Six times 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as desired, reroll if utter crap. You know, the one all the monsters are expecting. I just can't see the point of scaling everything up so that it presents a challenge to the "superhuman" characters. Who really aren't that superhuman, because everything they will be compared against will be equally superhuman, making the "super" part of superhuman rather superfluous.


Lol. Well said. The reason we scale up the PCs is so the DM can mess around with the already existing monsters as he sees fit without either worrying about wiping us out or changing the CR. Also, we play with 2-3 players as opposed to the recommended 4-5 payers (you know, the number of PCs the monsters are "expecting").

Lol. I can just imagine some poor slob of a monster complaining that the character's constitution score is too high.

Talic
2007-12-17, 07:11 AM
If players want to be monk or pally, then 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as desired.

If not, then 32 pt buy.

Alternative. Community stats. Each person roll 4d6, drop low, and the DM rounds out necessary rolls to get 6 stats. All players take those stats, and arrange as desired.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-17, 07:15 AM
I like 32 point buy personally. It just gets the feel. Sometimes I use a 18 point if I really want to be evil.

One of the people I played under said to roll stats we roll 14D6 re-reroll 2's 3's drop all but the highest 3 dice.

It was really creepy when I rolled simultaneously 14 1s....best...1 stat....ever....

RandomFellow
2007-12-17, 07:25 AM
A long time player in my D&D group will be Dungeon Mastering his first campaign next week, and there is some indecision about how to generate ability scores. Normally, we run very high-powered games, and we roll 4d6 drop the lowest reroll all 1's.

Now, since we are using the Eberron setting for the first time, we've recently noticed that Eberron is a rather low-level setting and having huge starting stats somehow wouldn't fit in quite so nicely. So we seek and alternative. Which do you prefer?

...

Also, on a separate but related note, do you generally prefer to generate your stats before or after you come up with your character concept? Before or after your background/personality? Just curious.

I usually vary b/t 32 point buy (normal game) to a 40 point game (where the players have MAD forced upon them for some reason and need better stats).

The problem I have with rolling is I usually end up with a 50+ point buy or a 14-20 point buy. Playing a character with multiple 18's and nothing below a 12 is just too much. By the same token, playing a character with a single +1 modifier is irritating.

If it's point buy I come up with everything except the actual text for the background/personality (e.g. I know the character had a wonderful childhood, went to a magical school in Thay.) before I bother with stat generation.

If I roll, the process is reversed. Roll first, then decide everything.

reorith
2007-12-17, 07:26 AM
5d4-2...that has always worked pretty good for me...

this is the first time i have heard of this method. i think i'll attempt it for an upcoming campaign

normally, i use 4d6 drop the lowest done seven times with the lowest value ignored.

Rad
2007-12-17, 07:44 AM
Champion array (18-16-14-12-10-8); plus you can move points around as you like on a 1-1 basis but only from a higher score to a lower one.

Saph
2007-12-17, 07:45 AM
We use point buy 28. It's a little more powerful than what monster CRs assume (point buy 25), but not so much that it causes any problems, and if you do the maths it averages out pretty close to the 4d6-drop-lowest method.

- Saph

Armads
2007-12-17, 08:10 AM
Champion array (18-16-14-12-10-8); plus you can move points around as you like on a 1-1 basis but only from a higher score to a lower one.

I usually use this in the PvP games I play, except the lowest is 10, and there's no point moving. Otherwise, I like 32 pb.

Amiria
2007-12-17, 08:33 AM
In the games of my RL group we have a custom point-buy sytem that roughly corresponds to a 45 point-buy.

In PbP games I also prefer point-buy, 32 points minimum. Otherwise I don't feel heroic enough. :smallfrown:

Same goes for hit points, I prefer a fixed amount each level. Average, half HD+1 (used in my RL group), or 3/4.

Randomness at character creation is bad. Murphy's Law also applies to ability score and hit point rolls. :smallfurious:

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 08:55 AM
In PbP games I also prefer point-buy, 32 points minimum. Otherwise I don't feel heroic enough. :smallfrown:


These kind of statements always make me cringe.


Anyhow, I usually do the standard 4d6dl, but my houserule is that if you end up with 2 8s or lower, or one 5 or lower, you can reroll. I also tend to have the players hide their stats from one another, because they work a lot like paychecks. Everyone is happy until they find out that someone is making more than them, then they start complaining.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-17, 09:00 AM
Everyone is happy until they find out that someone is making more than them, then they start complaining.

It seems to me that, rather than through subterfuge, you can simply solve this problem by ensuring that everybody is "making" an equal amount...

If your players get upset by random chargen (once they find out the truth behind it), why are you using it?

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-17, 10:24 AM
I prefer 32 point-buy, though I have used 28 for more low powered games and I used to use community stats, but I didn't like it much because it ended up too much like point-buy except more work for me. I keep telling myself I'll do a high-level game with 40 point-buy, but I never get around to it.

Also, I absolutely hate rolling stats. Its horrible. Everyone starts out on unequal footing and it creates tension.

Sleet
2007-12-17, 10:29 AM
Exclusively 28 point buy. Random chargen in some games is fun; for some reason, in D&D, it just isn't.

I'll never figure out why I love it in Warhammer Fantasy and hate it in D&D, but there you go.

bosssmiley
2007-12-17, 10:30 AM
28 pt buy.

Hey, if it's good enough for the RPGA's "Living *" campaigns; then it's good enough for me. Plus I hate seeing gamers gypped by bad die rolls in chargen. :smallannoyed:

Theli
2007-12-17, 11:14 AM
Yeah, I think I'm the wierd one here.

I prefer elite array. That's 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

But it looks like most people here like to think of THAT as AVERAGE. Average to me is all 10s, but meh...

If stats must be rolled, then I prefer the classic 4d6b3 without any rerolls.

Heroes are more than their stats, dammit...

Leicontis
2007-12-17, 11:16 AM
For a PbP game with players I don't know, I'd probably run on point buy, to avoid fudging.

In my face-to-face games, however, I run exclusively 4d6dl, place stats however you want, submit rolls to me for approval. I have players reroll anything with a net mod of less than +6 or more than +8, as well as any stat set that's just too flat (all 12-15 across the board, for example). Part of what I like about rolling for stats is that you often end up with at least one relatively weak stat and one relatively strong stat, and you have to fit this to your character. Obviously, I do apply some mercy if someone really needs a different stat distribution to make their RP concept work.

I generally come up with my general background/concept before I roll, then flesh out the details as I assign stats. "He's lived his life on the streets - I can put this low stat in Int because he hasn't had any education, but put this high stat in Wis, because he's streetsmart." Basically, I use the general concept to guide where I put the stats, then use the stat distribution as a guideline to more exact personality.

To me, point-buy stats are generally less interesting - it would feel like the players choosing the treasure off the tables, rather than rolling for it.

As far as inter-player jealousy over stats - I've been playing for six years, and never seen this. Maybe my group is just uncommonly good and mature, but we don't see D&D as a competitive game. That, and stat rolls are checked to make sure they're within bounds, so nobody gets a superman or a weakling.

MrNexx
2007-12-17, 11:19 AM
I have a fondness for rolled character stats, but I usually find myself using some variant of point buy for fairness.

valadil
2007-12-17, 11:33 AM
Point buy. Usually its anywhere between 28 and 36.

Before I joined my current group they were fond of a linear point buy, where everyone had something like 80 points and stats cost their value. 18 was 18 points, 10 was 10 points.

The craziest I've ever been involved in was simply pick your own stats. The group was mature enough that nobody went overboard, though I never did figure out why the cleric went with 15 wisdom.

SoD
2007-12-17, 11:34 AM
I come up with my idea first, and then roll 4d6 drop the lowest, for most. Occasionally, I'll use something else, but really only when the DM says something like guys, this is a high power one, you'll need really good ability scores. Or vice versa.

Sleet
2007-12-17, 11:37 AM
The craziest I've ever been involved in was simply pick your own stats. The group was mature enough that nobody went overboard, though I never did figure out why the cleric went with 15 wisdom.

Every time I've done that, it has worked far better than I thought it would. Maybe people don't munchkin as much when it will be obvious that's what they're doing and can't say "I guess it was just my lucky night!"

Dausuul
2007-12-17, 11:45 AM
32 point buy. Enough to make a solidly heroic character, while still forcing some tough choices.

As for the CR issue, I don't find it's much of a problem. Of course, I tend to make my PCs fight stuff at 4 CR above the party's level, just because I'd much rather have one big challenging fight than a lot of tedious grind-the-party-down fights. I just treat the PCs as being slightly less than 1 level higher than they actually are, and it works out pretty well.

-Cor-
2007-12-17, 12:22 PM
How do we do it? 32 pt buy.

How would I like to do it?

2d8 drop lowest + 10 Semi Organic (In other words, you assign the rolls to whatever ability you want as you roll, but once you assign you can't replace.)

Allows for some choices (not stuck with being a fighter because your first roll was good, but your others sucked etc.), some luck, and some randomness that only rolling stats can bring.

However, tends not to make unplayable characters as the stat spread is 9-18, (7-20 counting all 0 LA races), and is equivalent with a 32 point buy in power.

Has the added benefit of sticking people with odd scores both in the numerical sense and in the "how am I gonna role play this?" sense.

As always the caveat is any stat array that's sum of bonuses is less than 0 or greater than 12 is either too awful or too overpowered to exist and must be rerolled.

BardicDuelist
2007-12-17, 12:27 PM
2d6+6. This generates between 8 and 18. This is my preferred method of character generation for PCs.

Actually, we usually just assign stats. Nobody powergames, so it isn't a big deal, as everything is based on RP factors. I don't reccomend this.

Occasionally, we use 2d6+6. If you don't roll an 18, drop highest and take an 18. I don't reccomend this either.

Quietus
2007-12-17, 12:39 PM
These kind of statements always make me cringe.

I've gotta ask... why? Is it really such a problem that some people like to feel heroic when they game?


That said, when playing face-to-face, we have a somewhat complicated system for rolling...

Roll 4d6, drop lowest. You can subtract 2 points from one stat to add 2 points to another state, but only done once.
If you don't like the rolls, you can reroll. You get the same +/- option, but only 1 point.
If you don't like those rolls, you can reroll one last time. No customization, and you're stuck with this roll.

Any roll that qualifies as a reroll according to the PHB can be rerolled at no "cost". As for my PbP, we run 40 point buy, because A) The way this PbP is set up, players have the option, and frequently do, run solo. And B) It allows for people to make monks and paladins who aren't so heavily affected by MAD. Oh, and C) I like to throw stupidly strong things at them sometimes.

Corlis
2007-12-17, 12:39 PM
I like point-buy, but I've never played anything else, and I've never DMed. I'm kind of curious as to how 6D6 drop the highest die and the lowest two would work out, but I don't know if I'd use it.

Valairn
2007-12-17, 12:39 PM
I hate point buy, I also hate random rolls. My favorite character generation is actually the grid system you can find at invisible castle. Its very easily modifiable, and generally results in at least decent stats. I'm not really a fan of negative modifiers on my characters, or on any of the characters that play under me when I DM.

MrNexx
2007-12-17, 12:50 PM
Before I joined my current group they were fond of a linear point buy, where everyone had something like 80 points and stats cost their value. 18 was 18 points, 10 was 10 points.

I've gotten very good results out of this. While it can lead to some people playing Icewind Dale with their stats (i.e. I'm not going to be the talker, so I'll put my charisma at 3. I don't need much intelligence for this build, so my intelligence goes down there, too), you can usually find those people and encourage them to set their stats appropriately, or simply roleplay everyone's reactions to their stats. ("Yes, I'm aware you're trying to be suave and convincing. However, you have a Charisma of 3 and an Intelligence of 4. You are as suave as a rabid badger down someone's pants, and as intelligence as cheese. She's not buying what you're selling.")


The craziest I've ever been involved in was simply pick your own stats. The group was mature enough that nobody went overboard, though I never did figure out why the cleric went with 15 wisdom.

Works great, with the right group.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-17, 01:10 PM
I like 36 pt buy as you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Lolzords
2007-12-17, 01:47 PM
I use 4d6 drop one, or occasionally 5d6 drop two.

Draz74
2007-12-17, 01:47 PM
Now I want to try the "everyone choose your own stats" idea. :smallsmile:

28-point buy is my favorite out of the "standard" options.

"Community rolling" is a good system. The way I heard it, everyone rolls an array of stats in the standard way (4d6 drop lowest). The DM gets rid of any arrays that are significantly better or worse than the others. Then everyone gets to pick from any of the arrays that are left.

My current homebrewed system works like this: start with a 27-point buy on a modified table:
8 - zero points
9 - 1 point
10 - 2 points
11 - 3 points
12 - 4 points
13 - 5 points
14 - 7 points
15 - 9 points
16 - 12 points
17 - 15 points
18 - 20 points

After you buy your stats, roll 3d6 for each stat in order.
If the rolled stat is higher than the purchased stat, replace the purchased stat with its new higher version.
If the rolled stat is lower than the purchased stat, but is at least 8, make no change.
If the rolled stat is lower than 8, the stat decreases: becomes (rolled score) + (purchased score) - 8.

I'm not sure how great this system is yet, though. All wizards might still be buying 18 Intelligence. :smallannoyed:

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 03:07 PM
If your players get upset by random chargen (once they find out the truth behind it), why are you using it?

My tabletop players love random chargen, as its the way we've always played for 15+ years and we all strive to get those awesome rolls, I guess. Plus it feels a lot more organic to have a random set of stats to work with rather than simply being able to put points where you'd like.

The online groups & newer players groups I have run were the ones where I had to hide the results of each player's randomly generated stats. Mainly because I did not want to use point-buy, and some of the players complained the first few rounds when they ended up with "worse" stats than their friends.

I'd maintain that any player that gauges their level of fun by comparing their attributes to their friend's attributes is not playing with the right mindset for a heavy-RP game (which is what I always run).



I've gotta ask... why? Is it really such a problem that some people like to feel heroic when they game?


When players espouse the theory that their characters aren't heroic unless their stats are up to some arbitrary number that they deem high enough I immediately get negative impressions of both their playstyle and their DM's skill at crafting good games.

Deepblue706
2007-12-17, 03:18 PM
I personally like point-buy, usually between 25-30.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-17, 03:27 PM
I'd maintain that any player that gauges their level of fun by comparing their attributes to their friend's attributes is not playing with the right mindset for a heavy-RP game (which is what I always run).
It's not "fun" that the players are worried about, its balance. Even in an RP-heavy game, I want everyone to start out on an even footing, otherwise it seems like there is favoritism because that player can participate more positively.


When players espouse the theory that their characters aren't heroic unless their stats are up to some arbitrary number that they deem high enough I immediately get negative impressions of both their playstyle and their DM's skill at crafting good games.
The problem is you don't know the background of the player's experience. My players would consider lower than 32 point-buy to not be heroic enough because my games have very powerful creatures way above CR (+6 or so) and lower stats would lower the effectiveness of the characters too much. 32 for my games is already a bit low. Granted, I could lower the difficulty of my game, but the players would not know this and still see anything lower than 32 to not be heroic.

Quietus
2007-12-17, 03:33 PM
When players espouse the theory that their characters aren't heroic unless their stats are up to some arbitrary number that they deem high enough I immediately get negative impressions of both their playstyle and their DM's skill at crafting good games.

Perhaps, but it's very difficult to FEEL heroic, mechanically, if your highest stat is a 15 and the average is 12. Sure, I can act as heroic as I like, but frankly, if I don't have the right stats, or I'm just plain unlucky, then all those actions are going to end up with me laying flat on my face. Heroism is as much about actual CAPABILITY as it is about attitude.... okay, maybe attitude has an edge, but capability DOES need to be factored in. Or are you saying that your typical straight-ten commoner, if he just *tries*, can be heroic? I guess maybe if there's a housecat invasion... Or maybe not.

TheOOB
2007-12-17, 03:47 PM
I always do point buy, usually in the neighborhood of 32 points. I never, ever use rolled generation, I do not believe important parts of your character should be brought to random chance, hence why I always give max hp every level as well.

I feel D&D is very much so a heroic fantasy system, the characters represent something akin to greek heroes, powerful beings who are near gods by normal standards, they are the ones who win battles, destroy monsters, and change the world.

Counterspin
2007-12-17, 03:53 PM
I generally just give people 18-16-14-12-12-10. That's my sweet spot, and I fought against a slightly higher array in a group I'm currently in.

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 04:04 PM
It's not "fun" that the players are worried about, its balance. Even in an RP-heavy game, I want everyone to start out on an even footing, otherwise it seems like there is favoritism because that player can participate more positively.


I'd disagree. In a heavy-RP game the stats/mechanics mean far less than in a standard game. I know people (myself among them) that could have a lot of fun playing a "gimped" character whose stats are not as good as their friends. In a heavy-RP game, the focus is in portraying your character's role, not defeating tactical challenges or mechanical goals. Your character's role might be randomly determined (as in random char gen, sometimes even just handled a random character to play), or you might create it, but in both instances, the objective is quite different than standard.



The problem is you don't know the background of the player's experience. My players would consider lower than 32 point-buy to not be heroic enough because my games have very powerful creatures way above CR (+6 or so) and lower stats would lower the effectiveness of the characters too much. 32 for my games is already a bit low. Granted, I could lower the difficulty of my game, but the players would not know this and still see anything lower than 32 to not be heroic.

That's true that I don't know each player's background, but that doesn't mean that I can't make guesses based on my personal experience from playing the game. "Heroic" is a very subjective term. IMO a character being heroic has absolutely nothing to do with their mechanical abilities, and it has all to do with their roleplayed persona, their attempted goals, and such.

A character who puts their life on the line to buy some time for allies to escape can be very heroic, whereas a character who simply snaps his fingers to prevent an army from approaching is not.



Perhaps, but it's very difficult to FEEL heroic, mechanically, if your highest stat is a 15 and the average is 12. Sure, I can act as heroic as I like, but frankly, if I don't have the right stats, or I'm just plain unlucky, then all those actions are going to end up with me laying flat on my face.


Being heroic is not about knowing that you have a high probability of successfully completing tasks. And a character can just as easily be heroic while winding up laying flat on their face as can one who defeats all challengers and steps away unscathed.



Heroism is as much about actual CAPABILITY as it is about attitude.... okay, maybe attitude has an edge, but capability DOES need to be factored in. Or are you saying that your typical straight-ten commoner, if he just *tries*, can be heroic? I guess maybe if there's a housecat invasion... Or maybe not.


I'd disagree that capability has anything to do with being heroic. Unlikely heroes show up all the time.

Yes, a commoner could most definitely be a hero. If a commoner learned of an invading army and thus rushed to his hometown and alerted them all so that they could flee, thus saving them all from enslavement or death, I'd call him a hero.

What are you defining as heroic? A guy that can single-handedly fight off the rampaging dragon or approaching army?

Hunter Noventa
2007-12-17, 04:08 PM
If I already have a concept in mind, I prefer whatever manner of point buy. My usual DM does 24 to 28 point buys on a 1-for-1 basis.

If I don't have a concept, the grid style of generation over at Invisible Castle (http://invisiblecastle.com/help.py?p=grid) is always fun.

Quietus
2007-12-17, 04:11 PM
I'd disagree that capability has anything to do with being heroic. Unlikely heroes show up all the time.

Yes, a commoner could most definitely be a hero. If a commoner learned of an invading army and thus rushed to his hometown and alerted them all so that they could flee, thus saving them all from enslavement or death, I'd call him a hero.

What are you defining as heroic? A guy that can single-handedly fight off the rampaging dragon or approaching army?



See, I don't see "The commoner who can warn his hometown of an army" as being heroic. What's so heroic about going "Oh crap! Ten thousand people, abandon ship!"? The heroic thing, to me, is being able to *do something about that*, which that commoner is incapable of doing effectively. It doesn't matter HOW that is handled - a bard could be just as heroic walking into the enemy camp and talking the leader out of the attack as a band of warriors fighting off the army on their own are. But that straight-ten commoner, barring a LOT of nat 20's, isn't going to be able to do anything BUT tell his hometown to run.

d12
2007-12-17, 04:14 PM
Until the question was asked I never realized just how loose we tend to be with ability scores. Most games I play are over instant message, so it runs sort of like, "hey, we're going to form a group..it'll be around $FOO time and here's the classes people have decided to use so far..have a character ready" and that's pretty much it. I don't really remember any rules concerning generating the character's abilities though. Could just hit the dice until you get a set you're happy with. In the current game my monk (yeah, I know..I was young and naive) started 57-point equivalent.

These days I tend to like the idea of point buy because the dice hate me when ability generation time pops up. I like to use 50 points. Yup, that's right, I like characters to be competent. :smalltongue: I have to say though, the 32 points given in Neverwinter Nights 2 isn't exactly horrible. Kind of wish I knew how to hack it up to 50 at times though.

mockingbyrd7
2007-12-17, 04:17 PM
The one found in the book: Six times 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as desired, reroll if utter crap.

That's the way I do it. (But actually, I pretty much roll until I'm satisfied. :smalltongue:)

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-17, 04:24 PM
I'd disagree. In a heavy-RP game the stats/mechanics mean far less than in a standard game. I know people (myself among them) that could have a lot of fun playing a "gimped" character whose stats are not as good as their friends. In a heavy-RP game, the focus is in portraying your character's role, not defeating tactical challenges or mechanical goals. Your character's role might be randomly determined (as in random char gen, sometimes even just handled a random character to play), or you might create it, but in both instances, the objective is quite different than standard.
But some people would not view playing a gimped character as fun. Would you say the unwillingness to do so is a flaw on their part? I would not say so. It is a matter of preference and ability. If you like to do so, more power to you, but I rarely enjoy playing such a character. Additionally, as Quietus said, you need the capacity to be heroic as well as the RP. And you argue further on that point....


That's true that I don't know each player's background, but that doesn't mean that I can't make guesses based on my personal experience from playing the game. "Heroic" is a very subjective term. IMO a character being heroic has absolutely nothing to do with their mechanical abilities, and it has all to do with their roleplayed persona, their attempted goals, and such.

A character who puts their life on the line to buy some time for allies to escape can be very heroic, whereas a character who simply snaps his fingers to prevent an army from approaching is not.
As you said, heroic is not a fully defined word, though it is most commonly accepted as your latter example (though in the extreme). A martyr as in your former example is truly a hero, but not in the more common sense. That is more of a courageous and brave character, more narrow than the broad heroic term.


Being heroic is not about knowing that you have a high probability of successfully completing tasks. And a character can just as easily be heroic while winding up laying flat on their face as can one who defeats all challengers and steps away unscathed.
By the common use of the term, how can you fall flat on your face while being heroic?


I'd disagree that capability has anything to do with being heroic. Unlikely heroes show up all the time.

Yes, a commoner could most definitely be a hero. If a commoner learned of an invading army and thus rushed to his hometown and alerted them all so that they could flee, thus saving them all from enslavement or death, I'd call him a hero.

What are you defining as heroic? A guy that can single-handedly fight off the rampaging dragon or approaching army?
The main problem here is that you are assuming some one who is heroic is a hero. This is not necessarily true at all. To be heroic is to be powerful or remarkable (as the case may be). A hero can be a common man who completes a great task, but a heroic person does so regularly. As for my definition of heroic, your example here is one form, though there are others.

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 04:55 PM
But some people would not view playing a gimped character as fun. Would you say the unwillingness to do so is a flaw on their part? I would not say so. It is a matter of preference and ability. If you like to do so, more power to you, but I rarely enjoy playing such a character. Additionally, as Quietus said, you need the capacity to be heroic as well as the RP. And you argue further on that point....


I'd say that a player not wanting to play a "gimped" character (notice the quotations, just as I used in my first usage of the word) is definitely a flaw on their part. It would mean to me that they are obsessed with the mechanics of the game, and as such, are probably not going to be a good fit in a heavy roleplaying game.

I can play with mechanics obsessed people in WoW, for example (many of the people in my guild are that way, as am I, in WoW), and I can play with mechanically obsessed people in Monopoly, and other such games, as the entire point of the game is to "win" by doing various things. In WoW winning might be defined by being the best tank on your server, or by being the best PVPer on your server, etc. In Monopoly, making deals with other players to aquire the most advantageous properties for yourself while limiting what your opponents pick up is a good strategy to win Monopoly.

But in a heavy-RP campaign, "winning" equates properly playing your role, whatever that role happens to be. Maybe your character is the soldier who dreams of lasting peace, or the explorer who wants to see every inch of the world, or the wizard who wants to make an amazing magic item, etc. The pursuit of those goals, and the portrayal of those personality traits and the enjoyment that the group gets from you doing those things are what makes you "win".

A lot of players confuse mechanical power with winning D&D, and that is because that is how 99% of other games are. However, that's what makes D&D such a great game (IMO), it is so very different than those other games.



By the common use of the term, how can you fall flat on your face while being heroic?


If you save people, and then die later, falling flat on your face, that is one way of being heroic. You can also make huge blunders in the pursuit of being heroic, and still be heroic. Being heroic isn't someone who is nigh-flawless, it is someone who strives to right the wrongs in the world, upholds the values of life, etc, etc.



The main problem here is that you are assuming some one who is heroic is a hero. This is not necessarily true at all. To be heroic is to be powerful or remarkable (as the case may be). A hero can be a common man who completes a great task, but a heroic person does so regularly. As for my definition of heroic, your example here is one form, though there are others.

Maybe you are just using a different definition of heroic than I am. Your version of heroic is reminding me of a "Superhero". As in, the world is going to end every game session, and your amazing quartet arrives just in the knick of time to save the day and kiss babies and all that.

I think in the real world there are heroic people, but I wouldn't even dare to measure them up to the standard that you have mentioned for heroic, as very few would make the grade.

Ashes
2007-12-17, 05:15 PM
Always point buy. Usually 32 points. Although this time, for our gestalt-game, we did 32 points, add 2 to all scores after all adjustments.

My group hates randomness, we also use average HP.

Kizara
2007-12-17, 05:18 PM
You get 90-97 points (depending on campaign), place how you like on a 1-1 basis. The point is to be able to make the character you want to roleplay.

Amiria
2007-12-17, 05:36 PM
Why do I have such a high point-buy (45) in my RL groups ? Well, it started already so high back when we played AD&D. Maybe youc an blame TSR for it:

When one compares the ability score generation methods with the AD&D stats of iconic heroes from various FR sourcebooks you start to wonder how they got so high stats. Take for example Mintiper Moonsilver, a 12th level half-elven bard in the Forgotten Realms: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 17. Natural AD&D stats, no stat-increasing items, no +1 every 4 levels like in 3.5. Even a 45-pointbuy looks weak compared to those stats. Well, we wanted our characters at least so strong as the "average FR hero".

So yeah, I like high-powered scores because something like 25 point-buy was never the "normal" or "standard" thing for me, it is rather what NPCs have (at least) in our games. High-powered scores open more options for characters, MAD isn't such an issue.

If it results in to easy fights, either give out less xp (treating the PCs as one or two levels higher) or make some very simple on-the-fly adjustments for opponents: +1 to +2 on all rolls, +1 to +2 HD worth of hp, etc.

Kaelik
2007-12-17, 05:56 PM
But in a heavy-RP campaign, "winning" equates properly playing your role, whatever that role happens to be.

I would point out though, that many people come up with their role before they make a character, and they are then loath to change from "That guy who does X." to "That guy who tries and fails to do X." No you don't need uber stats to be successful, but in home campaigns we have a few players.

1) Me, crappy stats, awesome optimization fu=can play whatever role I want.
2) Player 2, even crappier stats, pretty good optimization fu, can play most things he wants to though.
3) Player 3, crappy optimization, average stats, wants to play a strong powerful X (mostly because he never gets to) always ends up being mostly useless.
4) Player 4, aka, the Bar. Rolls god-like, sort of copies the optimization fu of player 2. Makes Player 3 feel useless.

These are pretty much true every campaign, which is why we decided to go PB.

Yes, much of this has to do with optimization as well. But the point remains, that if you have an idea for your role, but you can't be that role, you aren't going to enjoy it much.

As for Heroic.

Look at 300. Both the real story and the movie are examples of heroism. They die and "fail" in both examples, but buy time. Still heroic.

However, they are heroic because they did well. Would it be heroic if 300 men stood against the Persian army...for 30 minutes, and then then Persians conquered Greece? No.

Similarly, it doesn't matter what you attitude is if you aren't capable of doing anything. If you attempt to hold back the monsters on a bridge so your party can escape with the Artifact of World saving, it isn't heroic if a Minotaur runs up and one shots you, or throws you over the edge into the water, and then the other 30 creatures surge on after your party.

You have to be able to do something noticeable to be heroic. Also, a Commoner running and saying, hey guys, lets run away, is not heroic.

Tormsskull
2007-12-17, 06:16 PM
When one compares the ability score generation methods with the AD&D stats of iconic heroes from various FR sourcebooks you start to wonder how they got so high stats. Take for example Mintiper Moonsilver, a 12th level half-elven bard in the Forgotten Realms: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 17. Natural AD&D stats, no stat-increasing items, no +1 every 4 levels like in 3.5. Even a 45-pointbuy looks weak compared to those stats. Well, we wanted our characters at least so strong as the "average FR hero".


I always took it the other way. Those characters were so amazing because of how rare they were. Imagine how unlikely it would be for a character to actually roll those stats. They are literally the 1 in a million type characters.

Now, to say that each of the PCs should be 1 in a million type character just doesn't jive with my playstyle. It a little too cutesy, for the lack of a better term, for me.

Gaiwecoor
2007-12-17, 06:16 PM
I like a little bit of a hybrid between the "organic" generation spoken of in the DMG and a usual point-buy. It includes an aspect of randomness, but you know how much you're going to get. Here's how it works:

Roll 5d4 and drop one for each stat. This one isn't "arrange as desired."
Using these numbers as a baseline, buy up to your campaign's point-buy limit.

This allows for more "natural" characters (i.e. a wizard that's naturally strong, or an uber-wise fighter. Generally, combinations that typically won't occur normally). It also allows for some customization. The 5d4 drop one rolls typically add up to a high-teens/low-twenties point buy (higher than that is fairly rare). There should be enough left over to allow characters to bump up whatever stats they want to improve.

Just my obfuscated house rule. :smallwink: Somebody please tell me if this is only worth that puddle of brown snow outside my front door. :smalleek:

Draz74
2007-12-17, 07:29 PM
Just my obfuscated house rule. :smallwink: Somebody please tell me if this is only worth that puddle of brown snow outside my front door. :smalleek:

Actually, I think I like it. Maybe better than my method that I posted (which was a similar hybrid, but in reverse order). I'll have to try it.

PhallicWarrior
2007-12-17, 10:19 PM
I use either a 28 point buy, or my 16-14-14-12-12-12 set up, if the players want to play Paladins or Monks.

tyckspoon
2007-12-17, 10:23 PM
This allows for more "natural" characters (i.e. a wizard that's naturally strong, or an uber-wise fighter. Generally, combinations that typically won't occur normally). It also allows for some customization. The 5d4 drop one rolls typically add up to a high-teens/low-twenties point buy (higher than that is fairly rare). There should be enough left over to allow characters to bump up whatever stats they want to improve.

Just my obfuscated house rule. :smallwink: Somebody please tell me if this is only worth that puddle of brown snow outside my front door. :smalleek:

Hmm. That's a 4-16 base range. Should work pretty well for higher rolls, but how do you deal with unusually low roles? The baseline for point-buy is a score of 8; do you refund points for rolls below that, or does the character just have to choose between paying extra or having a really crappy score?

Gaiwecoor
2007-12-17, 11:21 PM
... The baseline for point-buy is a score of 8; do you refund points for rolls below that, or does the character just have to choose between paying extra or having a really crappy score?

We've typically used refunds; for rolls less than 8, you get 8-Rolled Score back in the point buy. Of course, it's easy enough just to say "8 minimum on all of your scores." :smallwink:

Edit: Just for grins, I ran the numbers. You'd only get a 7 or lower on 5.47% of the rolls. In a party of four, you'll probably only have one score come up that way.

Kompera
2007-12-18, 01:18 AM
I like a little bit of a hybrid between the "organic" generation spoken of in the DMG and a usual point-buy. It includes an aspect of randomness, but you know how much you're going to get. Here's how it works:

Roll 5d4 and drop one for each stat. This one isn't "arrange as desired."
Using these numbers as a baseline, buy up to your campaign's point-buy limit.

This allows for more "natural" characters (i.e. a wizard that's naturally strong, or an uber-wise fighter. Generally, combinations that typically won't occur normally). It also allows for some customization. The 5d4 drop one rolls typically add up to a high-teens/low-twenties point buy (higher than that is fairly rare). There should be enough left over to allow characters to bump up whatever stats they want to improve.

Just my obfuscated house rule. :smallwink: Somebody please tell me if this is only worth that puddle of brown snow outside my front door. :smalleek:

My GM has a system which also allows for some variance from the weak and smart Wizard, strong but ugly Fighter. The fairly standard 4D6 drop lowest die and arrange as desired. Then you can ask the GM to replace any number of your rolls with his own, but you have to keep it regardless of whether it's higher or lower than your own roll. So if the Wizard parks an 11 in STR and asks the GM for a re-roll, he may end up with a 14.

Reinboom
2007-12-18, 01:32 AM
I like a little bit of a hybrid between the "organic" generation spoken of in the DMG and a usual point-buy. It includes an aspect of randomness, but you know how much you're going to get. Here's how it works:

Roll 5d4 and drop one for each stat. This one isn't "arrange as desired."
Using these numbers as a baseline, buy up to your campaign's point-buy limit.

This allows for more "natural" characters (i.e. a wizard that's naturally strong, or an uber-wise fighter. Generally, combinations that typically won't occur normally). It also allows for some customization. The 5d4 drop one rolls typically add up to a high-teens/low-twenties point buy (higher than that is fairly rare). There should be enough left over to allow characters to bump up whatever stats they want to improve.

Just my obfuscated house rule. :smallwink: Somebody please tell me if this is only worth that puddle of brown snow outside my front door. :smalleek:

I.. kind of like this. I think I shall use a modified version of this.
Thanks!

Talic
2007-12-18, 01:40 AM
See, I don't see "The commoner who can warn his hometown of an army" as being heroic. What's so heroic about going "Oh crap! Ten thousand people, abandon ship!"? The heroic thing, to me, is being able to *do something about that*, which that commoner is incapable of doing effectively. It doesn't matter HOW that is handled - a bard could be just as heroic walking into the enemy camp and talking the leader out of the attack as a band of warriors fighting off the army on their own are. But that straight-ten commoner, barring a LOT of nat 20's, isn't going to be able to do anything BUT tell his hometown to run.

By itself? No. But what if he was noticed running, was shot with an arrow, ran 3 miles over rough terrain, using his knowledge of the land to lose the advance scouts of the army, to alert the wall guards, preventing an ambush? That's certainly heroic.

Heroism is selfless action. It's doing something to save others, regardless of the danger it puts you in. Whether you protect by killing, warning, or rescuing, it's all a great example.

historycrusader
2007-12-18, 10:15 AM
Heroism is selfless action. It's doing something to save others, regardless of the danger it puts you in. Whether you protect by killing, warning, or rescuing, it's all a great example.

For further examples in literary usage, see Stephen R. Donaldson's collected body of work. Of note would be The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, and Reave the Just and Other Tales, with particular reference to Reave the Just and What Makes Us Human. As a warning, Donaldson's work is not for young, or even younger audiences, or anyone who is particularly sensitive.

Reinboom
2007-12-18, 10:29 AM
Hm, this has given me many an idea to mix the two.

Setting your desired point buy amount, then decreasing it by 2.
Having everyone set out their stats from there. Then decrease all their abilities by 2 and add a 1d4 to them. Which gives "slightly organic". Hm.

Diamondeye
2007-12-18, 12:33 PM
I'm a big believer in the 32-point buy, although with less than 4 players I'd jack that up some.

I used to like the 4d6 drop the lowest method, but point buy is my favorite now.

As to the whole "gimped character" debate, it depends a lot on what you consider gimped. I'd say a character with ability scores less than the equivalent of a 25-point buy is gimped in my book, and most multiclass combinations and some single classes that need multiple good ability scores might be gimped with under 28 points.

Artanis
2007-12-18, 12:55 PM
I'm happy using any stat generation method that fulfills one requirement: it is impossible for one character to so badly outclass another that the latter becomes completely useless. Usually, this means point-buy, but rolling with a TON of restrictions on maxima and minima would work.

Quietus
2007-12-18, 04:11 PM
If you save people, and then die later, falling flat on your face, that is one way of being heroic. You can also make huge blunders in the pursuit of being heroic, and still be heroic. Being heroic isn't someone who is nigh-flawless, it is someone who strives to right the wrongs in the world, upholds the values of life, etc, etc.

Sure. But you have to save people first, and frankly, that commoner? He just isn't very likely to do it.


By itself? No. But what if he was noticed running, was shot with an arrow, ran 3 miles over rough terrain, using his knowledge of the land to lose the advance scouts of the army, to alert the wall guards, preventing an ambush? That's certainly heroic.

Heroism is selfless action. It's doing something to save others, regardless of the danger it puts you in. Whether you protect by killing, warning, or rescuing, it's all a great example.

Again, sure. But your commoner, with his big d4 (not even max at first level) hit points, isn't likely to survive the arrow anyway. If he does, running three miles over rough terrain is going to require one seriously awesome string of Con checks to keep that up.

On the other hand, a ranger, with d8 hit points and decent stats, is likely to survive that arrow. If he's got a halfway decent con, combined with his good Fort save, he's got a better chance of making that run. And with access to Knowledge (Geography) and Survival as class skills, as well as better stats to add to them, is FAR more likely to succeed. And I'll be honest here - the number of people who play D&D *to fail* are very, very few.


So, for comparison :

Commoner who once in his life makes it back despite overwhelming odds to warn of impending invasion = lucky, courageous, and is a hero.
Ranger who makes a habit of doing crazy stuff like that on a regular basis = lucky, courageous (or foolhardy), and since he does it on a regular basis, heroic.

Basically, you can be a hero without being heroic. You can even be heroic without being ((Edit :: PERCIEVED AS)) a hero, though that's far more unlikely.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-18, 05:34 PM
For a game where I am going to put my players through the ringer in ways that are just above and beyond what would normally be reasonable...(like facing off against 50 goblins raiding a town at first level) I will tell my players that this is a high power campaign...the best and most promising adventurers have been gathered from the far reaches of the empire/world/whatever...max stats, +2 in two stats or +4 to a single stat. Usually outfitted with any mundane equipment they chose and 2 randomly rolled minor magic items that would be 'useful', player's choice as to what catagory.

Used that model for my LotR style 'epic' quest where the most promising were gathered in secret and given the task to seek out several artifacts within a certian amount of time...then a war was going to start...much fun. If you are gonna do something outrageous in which 'normal' just doesn't cut it...that is agood way to start off your heroes so that if they are crafty, they can meet challenges far above their capacity and win...truely heroic undertakings too...like soloing a hill giant at level 3 or 4...or fighting a small army, multiple young dragons...stuff like that.

Not a method to be used lightly, but if you wanna just let lose with al manner of odd things and some homebrew wackyness...it certianly allows the players to be more than ready for just about anything...and it allows for you to not feel so bad about pulling out truely horrific stuff...

Note...if you go to soft on them...the players may start to feel invincible and that they can take on any challenge no matter how daunting...it is a good way to wind up very dead.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-19, 02:19 AM
So we seek and alternative. Which do you prefer?

-roll 4d6 drop the lowest?

-standard stat allotment?

-25pt. buy?

-28pt. buy?

-32pt. buy?

-some other point buy amount?

-something different altogether?

Also, on a separate but related note, do you generally prefer to generate your stats before or after you come up with your character concept? Before or after your background/personality? Just curious.

I like standard stat allotment (8, 10, 12, 13, 14 & 15) with 8 bonus points for point buy which can give a SAD class a single 18 before templates if available and a MAD class some pretty nice ability scores. I make the point buy before building the PC to determine what I'm playing.

Talic
2007-12-19, 03:27 AM
Again, sure. But your commoner, with his big d4 (not even max at first level) hit points, isn't likely to survive the arrow anyway. If he does, running three miles over rough terrain is going to require one seriously awesome string of Con checks to keep that up.

Arrow does D8. Commoner has a decent shot at surviving an arrow (50%, assuming a 10 con, average rolls, and a level 2 commoner, which would be pretty average for a moderately experienced farmhand).


On the other hand, a ranger, with d8 hit points and decent stats, is likely to survive that arrow.

True. But when does survival have anything to do with being a hero? To the starving single waitress with three kids, the guy who left a $100 tip the week before Christmas is a hero. To those who have less to give, the sacrifice is all the greater. A ranger taking an arrow, common fare. Nothing incredibly risky, and likely he'll kill that advanced scout handily. The commoner? He's out of his league, alone, outgunned, and desperately trying to save his town. Tell me... Who has the more noble spirit?


If he's got a halfway decent con, combined with his good Fort save, he's got a better chance of making that run. And with access to Knowledge (Geography) and Survival as class skills, as well as better stats to add to them, is FAR more likely to succeed. And I'll be honest here - the number of people who play D&D *to fail* are very, very few.

Well, I'm glad you're deciding to be honest. So much better than the alternative. :smallwink:
That said, success and failure are irrelevant to the heroic spirit. While everyone does want the good guy to win, he's no less a hero if he's beaten. He's just a TRAGIC hero.
Again, the commoner who knows the woods he's in, the shortcuts back to town, and maybe hunts a deer or two to supplement his meals (again, not as effective as a ranger, I'll grant you), is quite capable of evading a scout who's not been in the area before, and isn't familiar with the terrain. Again, when an action's more risky, it makes it MORE heroic, not less.

Heroes need not be epic to be heroes. Many great stories feature the common man pushed to extraordinary acts of heroism. Look at LotR. Frodo and Sam are hardly of heroic spirit, and they run from fights far more than they fight them... But they stand against evil to better the world. The crowning definition of a hero.


Commoner who once in his life makes it back despite overwhelming odds to warn of impending invasion = lucky, courageous, and is a hero.

Agreed.


Ranger who makes a habit of doing crazy stuff like that on a regular basis = lucky, courageous (or foolhardy), and since he does it on a regular basis, heroic.

Not even close. For an equal level ranger to be even close to as heroic as that peasant, he'd need to be throwing himself up against a much greater threat. It's easy to do the right thing when it's easy to do the right thing. Doing it, even when it means almost certain death? That's what defines the measure of a hero.

And why it's so much easier to play a hero than to be one.