Layers of defence

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys,
I was thinking... what stands between a PC/NPC and death by violent means in 5e?

Here is what I have so far:
- HP pool
- AC
- Saves
- Resitances/Immunities
- spells that reduce chance to get hit (Mage Armor, Mirror image, Invulnerability)
- Spells that nullify magic effects (Counterspell, Dispel magic)
- offensive spells (damage and statuses applied to opponents)
- Spells that enable to come back after death (Clone, someone else tasked to cast Ressurection, etc.)
- Inherwnt abilities to respawn after death (Ghost, Mummy lord)

Are there some other tools in the tool pile that prevents death?

Thanks!

[stoutstien]

Your missing the best one: good decisions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Your missing the best one: good decisions. Which is roughly the opposite of "here, hold my beer ale meade!" :smallsmile:

[Hael]

You are missing quite a few other defenses.

Initiative.
Illusions.
The ability for a character to take a hit for another.
Abilities that negate the attack outright (armor of Hexes)
The sharing of hitpoints (warding bond)
Flight and movement abilities (including reaction movements)
Temporary hitpoints and max hp (twlight cleric, aid)
Class features that enable rerolls (lucky, long death monk, zealot barbarian etc) for various things (death, being hit etc) or spells (like deathward)
Spells like mirror image/phantom steed that give free hits before damage

[sithlordnergal]

So, I break defense down into three categories:

Hard Defense, Soft Defense, and Conditional Defense.


Hard Defenses are your last lines of defense. This list is made up of HP, Temp HP, AC, Saving Throws, and the Bear Totem's Damage Resistances. When the chips are down and all other methods have failed you, this is what your enemy has to get through in order to down you. It doesn't matter what your situation is, what you're fighting, or what you're doing, in order to down you they still have to deal with these things.


Soft Defenses are things that can grant a bonus in the moment, but can be easily bypassed, removed, or are very conditional. Most buff spells fall into the Soft Defense category, since they can be dispelled, or they can be removed by having your Concentration broken. Same thing with illusions that fail when fighting something that see through illusions, or class abilities like Armor of Hexes, which only works against a creature that has been hexed by you, or One with the Word, which can only be used once per Long Rest. These things are very useful, and can make you survive longer, but there are ways to bypass them. I count Cover as a Soft Defense because it can usually be bypassed by movement.


Conditional Defenses are defenses that are really powerful when they can be used, but useless in every other situation. For example, high movement can be an amazing defense! Can't take damage if you're always out of reach after all. But that becomes useless if you're in a situation where your enemy moves faster than you, if you don't have the space to outrun your enemy, or if your enemy has the range to still kill you. Barbarian Rage is another Conditional Defense. Resistance to Bludgeoning, Slashing, and Piercing are absolutely amazing! But as a Barbarian in one of my games learned, its not that useful when you're fighting things that deal a lot of Necrotic Damage.


Personally, I like to maximize my Hard Defenses over everything else. Those are what will be left over after the DM finds a way to bypass all of those other defenses after all. And if I can make those a massive hurdle to overcome, I can then increase them via Soft and Conditional Defenses.

[RSP]

Not sure how to categorize it but basically take all the features in the game, take out any non-combat features, then remove offensive feature (if not subscribing to the adage “the best defense is dead opponent”).

The remaining abilities are the ones stopping you from dying.

It sounds like a joke, but really most of the abilities in the game do something to defend the player from dying, even if that defense is a move that knocks the other guy to 0.

[LudicSavant]

So, I break defense down into two categories:

Hard Defense, Soft Defense, and Conditional Defense.

Isn't that three categories?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No mention of Death Ward? Many believe you can stack that on one character multiple times, peeling one away like layers on an onion every time the character would die.

[sithlordnergal]

Isn't that three categories?

It is!! I made a typo!!

[Mastikator]

Sanctuary is a pretty good option, not for someone with tons of defense but for someone with low defense and is using their actions for support.

[GloatingSwine]

The defensive onion applied to D&D goes as follows:

Don't be there. Reconnaissance and planning allow you to bypass enemies by taking routes where they are not present.

Don't be seen. Stealth and concealment prevent enemies from knowing that you are present.

Don't be acquired. Sanctuary, Darkness, Cover, or Invisibility may render you an invalid or unappealing target even if the enemy knows you are present.

Don't be hit. Defensive feats and spells, saves, and AC prevent enemy hits from landing if you are their target.

Don't be killed. Pack enough beef and healing to carry on if all of the above fails.

[Skrum]

The defensive onion applied to D&D goes as follows:

Don't be there. Reconnaissance and planning allow you to bypass enemies by taking routes where they are not present.

Don't be seen. Stealth and concealment prevent enemies from knowing that you are present.

Don't be acquired. Sanctuary, Darkness, Cover, or Invisibility may render you an invalid or unappealing target even if the enemy knows you are present.

Don't be hit. Defensive feats and spells, saves, and AC prevent enemy hits from landing if you are their target.

Don't be killed. Pack enough beef and healing to carry on if all of the above fails.

I agree, but I'll also say - I find the first three to be pretty boring. When the plan is to utterly overwhelm, surprise, and control, and it works combat after combat after combat, I get bored. Combats where the enemies are outmatched and the players just get to style, they are definitely fun - occasionally. It's fun to be cool. But the real juicy part of the game IMO is drama and tension and fighting for your life. So personally, I like to stack the last two. Put myself in danger and then (hopefully) survive that danger.

There is absolutely a point where optimization comes at the expense of fun.

[stoutstien]

I agree, but I'll also say - I find the first three to be pretty boring. When the plan is to utterly overwhelm, surprise, and control, and it works combat after combat after combat, I get bored. Combats where the enemies are outmatched and the players just get to style, they are definitely fun - occasionally. It's fun to be cool. But the real juicy part of the game IMO is drama and tension and fighting for your life. So personally, I like to stack the last two. Put myself in danger and then (hopefully) survive that danger.

There is absolutely a point where optimization comes at the expense of fun.

Just two different types of player skills challenges that focus on two different types of fulfillment. Some players feel way more powerful when their planning (logistics) is what is effective at overcoming stuff where other like the more immediate decisions (tactical) to take point.

Room for both and if you use both then it really hit those happy brain parts for those who want to feel like they are earning it.

[Mastikator]

I agree, but I'll also say - I find the first three to be pretty boring. When the plan is to utterly overwhelm, surprise, and control, and it works combat after combat after combat, I get bored. Combats where the enemies are outmatched and the players just get to style, they are definitely fun - occasionally. It's fun to be cool. But the real juicy part of the game IMO is drama and tension and fighting for your life. So personally, I like to stack the last two. Put myself in danger and then (hopefully) survive that danger.

There is absolutely a point where optimization comes at the expense of fun.

This is a thing a DM can easily react to. But here's the thing. The DM should reward the players for being proactive and clever, but also punish them for dawdling. If the scout is detected the fortress is set to high alert, if the scout is captured then information about the party is leaked to the enemy and they can take direct and targeted countermeasures against the PCs. The enemies might even flee and take all their loot with them.
Any dungeon can be designed such that sneaks are punished, paths that look like they give cover to hide behind are actually trapped, and dead ends, or lead into an ambush.

The final one is spells, when a PC is casting darkness then they're not casting scorching ray. IMO: fair game. They're already giving something up, the DM shouldn't really bother to specifically and premeditatedly countermeasure it. At least not any more than they countermeasure fireball.

I think my most salient point here is that safety is an illusion, but risk management is not. Do not think you are playing chess against the DM, instead imagine that you are trying to beat a chess puzzle the DM has arranged for you. The DM doesn't win if you fail, the DM wins if you succeed and can move onto their next puzzle.

[Skrum]

Just two different types of player skills challenges that focus on two different types of fulfillment. Some players feel way more powerful when their planning (logistics) is what is effective at overcoming stuff where other like the more immediate decisions (tactical) to take point.

Room for both and if you use both then it really hit those happy brain parts for those who want to feel like they are earning it.

Yeah for sure; different ways to have fun. And TBC, I enjoy a variety of encounters. I'm just saying that I know what kind of encounter I enjoy the most, and for that reason I don't really care for certain builds - sharpshooter archers for instance, or alpha strikers. They tend to take the fight out of the fight.



Do not think you are playing chess against the DM, instead imagine that you are trying to beat a chess puzzle the DM has arranged for you. The DM doesn't win if you fail, the DM wins if you succeed and can move onto their next puzzle.

An excellent piece of advice to give DMs, especially after their cool encounter gets washed by a Silvery Barbs-fueled lockdown. Eye on the prize...if the players are having fun, there's always another encounter to plan....

[da newt]

I enjoy range, cover, line of sight, unseen, etc as tactical tools (both offensive and defensive) - these sorts of things are fun to me, but I also realize that if my assassin sniper is playing this sort of game and making himself really hard to target, sometimes that just means that the other PCs get focused on more. This can be an overall negative for the party. Sometimes being a good target = being a good teammate.