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Akisa
2007-12-17, 06:20 PM
1) Prior to session start a player and dm was arguing how much Force Points (kind of like action points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm)) the character has. The player was not arguing that he had more Force Points, instead he was arguing he had less and the DM was stead fast that he should have more.

Kizara
2007-12-17, 06:25 PM
2) In the middle of a session, my DM was arguing with me whether or not the programs running in the background of my computer were impacting it's performance. I was trying to insist we get back to the game... which we did after a moment, but it was still a really silly argument.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-17, 06:26 PM
"Candles of Invocation aren't broken because the gated Solar who was called in to kill an evil dragon will have no duties and nothing better to do than to track you down and kill you for gating him, an embodiment of Warrior Good, in to fight evil."

RandomNPC
2007-12-17, 06:27 PM
it's not exactly related to RPGing, but here goes.

in DBZ gokus dad gets psychic 4 days after goku is born. my friend insists he passed his psychic abilites onto goku so he could see what was coming in fights.

first, it's not genetic, second, he was already born.

Kizara
2007-12-17, 06:28 PM
4) Samurai's are not inferior because they have some skill points and skills that have no synergy to the class. Including uncommon skills, such as forgery.

Mr. Mud
2007-12-17, 06:30 PM
Anything out of my DM's mouth :smallbiggrin:

Issabella
2007-12-17, 06:31 PM
I can burn down an orphanage, kick a puppy and help an old lady across the street because I am Chaotic Neutral!


CN does not equal Chaotic stupid! grrrr

Xefas
2007-12-17, 06:33 PM
I once was engaged in a brief argument regarding what equipment should be available for purchase at a specific location.

I had designed my Yuan-Ti empire after the Aztecs, and so the player contended that, since the Aztecs existed in proto-Mexico, they should be able to buy bootlegged scrolls there.

I allowed them to go around asking the locals for such items, but eventually their diplomatic immunity wore thin and they were taken captive by slavers.

Ashes
2007-12-17, 06:41 PM
I once was engaged in a brief argument regarding what equipment should be available for purchase at a specific location.

I had designed my Yuan-Ti empire after the Aztecs, and so the player contended that, since the Aztecs existed in proto-Mexico, they should be able to buy bootlegged scrolls there.

I allowed them to go around asking the locals for such items, but eventually their diplomatic immunity wore thin and they were taken captive by slavers.

I don't really have anything to add, but I must say that this made me laugh.

RandomNPC
2007-12-17, 06:47 PM
I once was engaged in a brief argument regarding what equipment should be available for purchase at a specific location.

I had designed my Yuan-Ti empire after the Aztecs, and so the player contended that, since the Aztecs existed in proto-Mexico, they should be able to buy bootlegged scrolls there.

I allowed them to go around asking the locals for such items, but eventually their diplomatic immunity wore thin and they were taken captive by slavers.

quite lovely, real diplomatic immunity should work something like that. i've only heard of it a few times, but apparently if they don't see you in the act you can get away with anything if you've got diplomatic immunity.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-17, 06:52 PM
quite lovely, real diplomatic immunity should work something like that. i've only heard of it a few times, but apparently if they don't see you in the act you can get away with anything if you've got diplomatic immunity.

I believe you're immune to all prosecution if you've got diplomatic immunity. They can always kick you out if you start killing random people, and your home country can just prosecute you themselves if you've brought shame upon them (or, better yet, waive your immunity).

Daze
2007-12-17, 06:52 PM
I can burn down an orphanage, kick a puppy and help an old lady across the street because I am Chaotic Neutral!


CN does not equal Chaotic stupid! grrrr

I agree wholeheartedly.

Any Chaotic alignment for that matter, people use it as an excuse to be raving jerks.

Prophaniti
2007-12-17, 07:02 PM
Oh, I got into an argument with my brother (who admitedely likes to argue about everything) about whether or not my character, who was lawful neutral, would enjoy a barfight. Apparently the chaotic nature of a barfight meant my LN character would automatically abhore and detest them. I was just running a character with a very strict moral code - that loved to fight. It was a very silly thing to argue about, but I still think he's an idiot when it comes to alignment interpretation.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 07:42 PM
Me- Alright, the mother dies with her last words urging you to take this baby out of enemy terroritory. The baby is sick with fever and will not last long.

My group at the time is a wizard, a rouge, and a paldin, the first two are long time players, the latter just showed up

Rouge- Damn it, this is going to be a hassel (elven baby, goblin terrotory, they are all goblinoid themselves but an elven baby)
Wizard- Crud, now i have to play the wet nurse
Paladin- I kill the baby


Me- Wait WTF? How the hell can you justifiy that? It is a freaking baby

Paladin- Well you told me i have to make people feel happy

Me- Thank you for taking the freaking five page manual on the to do and not to do about the paladin code i wrote and reducing it to one sentence but how is that relevant
Paladin- Well the Rouge and Wizard are unhappy about keeping the baby alive, so it i kill it it, so that should make them happy
Me- But what about hte baby' happeness
Paladin- He is crying, if i kill him what ever is making him cry won't bother him any more

Me- Dear gods in heavens, my mind

Rouge- Can i shank the pally?
from,
EE

Jimp
2007-12-17, 07:53 PM
Oh god that was hilarious :smallbiggrin: .

Snadgeros
2007-12-17, 07:54 PM
All classes in core are balanced if you optimize them the maximum amount! For max optimization, everyone just makes Pun-Pun and voila! Everyone is EQUALLY infinitely powerful!:smallbiggrin:

Lady Tialait
2007-12-17, 07:55 PM
Rouge- Can i shank the pally?


Indeed you can my good man...and if you do you inherite all of his powers and hsi god's favor.

TimeWizard
2007-12-17, 08:01 PM
The Core-only Fighter is better then a Warblade because at level 20 they can all out Power Attack for 60+2d6+STR damage.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 08:03 PM
Indeed you can my good man...and if you do you inherite all of his powers and hsi god's favor.

That was pretty close to my response, the Rouge got a free level in Paladin (fluff) and the entire premise of the champain changed


Oh god that was hilarious .

you mean me?
from,
EE

Kompera
2007-12-17, 09:41 PM
5) I'm banning the spiked chain from my game because I find it to be unrealistic.

Never mind all the other unrealistic weapons in the PHB, or the fact that spears or lances don't ever shatter when used, or the fact that you can sap an armored man wearing a steel helm into unconsciousness, or any of the other highly unrealistic things allowed under the D&D combat system or representation of physics. Or even the fact that the spiked chain is only fully utilized by melee types, most notably Fighters who have the Feats to spare for said utilization and who are widely regarded as the least potent of the melee classes in Core and are sorely in need of any game mechanics love that might be thrown their way.

Nope, I reserve all of my righteous indignation and insistence on "realism" for the spiked chain alone.

Daegann Darrow
2007-12-17, 09:48 PM
Joe: I cast burning hands.
DM: There's a wagon in the way.
Joe: So? The range on the spell is 15' radius.
DM: And there's a wagon right freakin' there. Your spell won't hit anyone.
Joe: What the hell, are you retarded? Fire goes around stuff.
DM: Dude, it would not do that. Your spell won't hit jack.
Joe: Yes it DOES. Fire goes around and over stuff, the fire would hit it!
DM: No, it wouldn't
Joe: Well I cast it through the wagon then.
DM: What? It's a wagon carrying a hundred thousand gold's worth of magic weaponry. It's the equivalent of an armored transport truck.
Joe: Bulls**t
DM: It's not gonna work. Do you want to do something else?
Joe: No, I cast the spell becaue it would work.
DM: Your spell does nothing. Who's next?

What's even better is that "Joe" went upstairs to his room, constructed a makeshift wagon out of cardboard and zipties, and sprayed it with an AXE flamethrower. We all got thrown out of the house because the thing burst into flame (DURRR JOE!) and the plastic melted, so the smoke alarms went off. Still make fun of him for it.

Daegann Darrow
2007-12-17, 09:56 PM
Here's a chaser for that last one.

My friend "Gordon" and I were running a game with some friends and the previous session we had left off at the base of a 150' tall cliff. Before we left Gordon and "Nick" were tossing around the idea of my 1/2-orc Barbarian throwing the halfling up with a rope. It was funny, but mostly forgotten. Gordon is an odd person, so when we played again two weeks later he pasted up a series of papers covered in precise calculation telling us that it could be done, using the wieght tables and the lift over head tables as his math base. He had gone to his math teacher at college and proposed the idea, and they both nerded out over it for a week and a half.

Of course, when the time came I had to crush his spirit.

Gordon: So basically since Brunk has a strength of 20 he can lift a thousand pounds. Scuzzyfeet only weighs thirty pounds! Blah Blah Blah math stuff Blah!

Daegann: Dude. Velocity.

Gordon: Wha?

Daegann: Velocity dude. You cant lift a thirty pound halfling up over your head fast enough to throw him 150' feet straight up.

Gordon: 0_0

Daegann: lol
(Turns out there was a path hidden in a cave, lol)

Armads
2007-12-17, 10:00 PM
6) If A touches B, B doesn't touch A.

BloodyAngel
2007-12-17, 10:04 PM
I once had to argue with a player for twenty minutes that yes, elves in fact... COULD get lycanthropy. His character was an elf, and despite having absolutely NO proof of this, save "I know I read it somewhere", he fought with me for a needlessly long time about it.

The funny part... He had taken a mere 3 damage from said Lycanthrope in the fight... back in a second edition game. Meaning he had a 3% chance of actually getting the affliction. Most pointless arguement ever.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-17, 10:17 PM
DM: Alright, you guys encounter a random encounter at sea...

Player A: (Leaning back in stool because it's getting uncomfortable) I bet it's like a kraken or dragon turtle from the way he's cackling over there.

DM: Hey! A bolt of lightening strikes your character for...24 points of damage.

Player A: What? How?

DM: You looked at the page of the MM!

Player A: No, I was leaning back, but I was asking how a bolt of lightening hit me in the first place. You said the sky was clear and it wasn't storm season.

DM: Because I said so.

Player A: But could you at least try and justify it to make me feel better?

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 10:32 PM
DM: Alright, you guys encounter a random encounter at sea...

Player A: (Leaning back in stool because it's getting uncomfortable) I bet it's like a kraken or dragon turtle from the way he's cackling over there.

DM: Hey! A bolt of lightening strikes your character for...24 points of damage.

Player A: What? How?

DM: You looked at the page of the MM!

Player A: No, I was leaning back, but I was asking how a bolt of lightening hit me in the first place. You said the sky was clear and it wasn't storm season.

DM: Because I said so.

Player A: But could you at least try and justify it to make me feel better?

nice

Another one

This is set in a world based after teh Greek city states. the PC are scouts for an orcish invasion
Me- Alright, the massive orcish hoards are coming, as they march towards the cannon.
Fighter- I take off my armor and sneak closer
Me- Ok i suppose
rouge- wait, didn't i just do that
Ranger- I cover him with my bow
Wizard- I watch while bored, but my familer (raven) follows him
Fighter- Alright how close am i to the first group
Me- about 20 yards
Fighter- who are they?
Me- goblin slaves led by an ogre slave driver
Figher- Alright i ready my shield
Me- Ok
Fighter- I put my longsword to the ground and equip the gladuis i found earlier.
Me- i'm beginning to dread this but ok
Fighter- I put my spear in my hand
Me- Ok
Fighter- I put my red cloak on
Me- Your not good at the whole stealth thing are you
Fighter- and i take off all my clothes other than my breeches
Me- WTF?
Wizard-hey that big sword was making up for something, what do you know
Druid-oh gods, my yes
Ranger- stab myself in the eye
Cleric (female)- Grrrrrrr
Rouge- naked warrior. Wait a second

fighter- I will jump in front of them and declare dramtically "you shall not pass, this is Spartia"
Me-WTF? Spartia doesn't even exist in this world, and your boarding racism
Fighter- But i figure that they must have seen the movie, and seeing a naked warrior will effect their moral awfully
Me- How will seeing an naked lone warrior scare them in the least?
Fighter- well if somebody takes off all their cloths and attack an army alone, then they must be crazy or bad ass to the core. so they will ether run away, knowing they are mooks and thus weak against the badass single ninja mode of attack, or they will think i'm crazy and run away to avoid catching what ever it is i have
Me-:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: the words come out but they don't make sense
Fighter- I charge dramaticlly
Me- They raise weapons
Fighter- But they must have seen the movie and know to be afraid
me- Yes they did seen the movie, and they all hated it. You die. I'm sorry, but you broke the game. You just die
fighter- at least i had chicken
Me- They sell your body to a local necrophelic
Fighter- oh................................................ ...............no chicken
Me-nope
from,
EE

Kaelik
2007-12-17, 10:40 PM
Joe: I cast burning hands.
DM: There's a wagon in the way.
Joe: So? The range on the spell is 15' radius.
DM: And there's a wagon right freakin' there. Your spell won't hit anyone.
Joe: What the hell, are you retarded? Fire goes around stuff.
DM: Dude, it would not do that. Your spell won't hit jack.
Joe: Yes it DOES. Fire goes around and over stuff, the fire would hit it!
DM: No, it wouldn't
Joe: Well I cast it through the wagon then.
DM: What? It's a wagon carrying a hundred thousand gold's worth of magic weaponry. It's the equivalent of an armored transport truck.
Joe: Bulls**t
DM: It's not gonna work. Do you want to do something else?
Joe: No, I cast the spell becaue it would work.
DM: Your spell does nothing. Who's next?

What's even better is that "Joe" went upstairs to his room, constructed a makeshift wagon out of cardboard and zipties, and sprayed it with an AXE flamethrower. We all got thrown out of the house because the thing burst into flame (DURRR JOE!) and the plastic melted, so the smoke alarms went off. Still make fun of him for it.

Show Joe the part of the spell that says "Burst."

Then show him the description of Burst that says things with Total Cover to the point of origin are not effected. Then show him the part where Spread says it goes around corners. Then show him that Fireball is a Spread. Then show him that he wants to cast Fireball.

(If he's level one, show him Color Spray.)

BRC
2007-12-17, 10:44 PM
nice

Another one

This is set in a world based after teh Greek city states. the PC are scouts for an orcish invasion
Me- Alright, the massive orcish hoards are coming, as they march towards the cannon.
Fighter- I take off my armor and sneak closer
Me- Ok i suppose
rouge- wait, didn't i just do that
Ranger- I cover him with my bow
Wizard- I watch while bored, but my familer (raven) follows him
Fighter- Alright how close am i to the first group
Me- about 20 yards
Fighter- who are they?
Me- goblin slaves led by an ogre slave driver
Figher- Alright i ready my shield
Me- Ok
Fighter- I put my longsword to the ground and equip the gladuis i found earlier.
Me- i'm beginning to dread this but ok
Fighter- I put my spear in my hand
Me- Ok
Fighter- I put my red cloak on
Me- Your not good at the whole stealth thing are you
Fighter- and i take off all my clothes other than my breeches
Me- WTF?
Wizard-hey that big sword was making up for something, what do you know
Druid-oh gods, my yes
Ranger- stab myself in the eye
Cleric (female)- Grrrrrrr
Rouge- naked warrior. Wait a second

fighter- I will jump in front of them and declare dramtically "you shall not pass, this is Spartia"
Me-WTF? Spartia doesn't even exist in this world, and your boarding racism
Fighter- But i figure that they must have seen the movie, and seeing a naked warrior will effect their moral awfully
Me- How will seeing an naked lone warrior scare them in the least?
Fighter- well if somebody takes off all their cloths and attack an army alone, then they must be crazy or bad ass to the core. so they will ether run away, knowing they are mooks and thus weak against the badass single ninja mode of attack, or they will think i'm crazy and run away to avoid catching what ever it is i have
Me-:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: the words come out but they don't make sense
Fighter- I charge dramaticlly
Me- They raise weapons
Fighter- But they must have seen the movie and know to be afraid
me- Yes they did seen the movie, and they all hated it. You die. I'm sorry, but you broke the game. You just die
fighter- at least i had chicken
Me- They sell your body to a local necrophelic
Fighter- oh................................................ ...............no chicken
Me-nope
from,
EE
Dude, thats Madness

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 10:45 PM
Dude, thats Madness

yes, yes, it is
don't push me down a well
from,
EE

Kompera
2007-12-17, 10:45 PM
6) If A touches B, B doesn't touch A.There is a person on this board (whose name escapes me at this time) whose .sig includes words to the effect that you can't use an English definition to contradict the rules. Yes, if A touches B, B touches A. But "touch" is both a Noun and a Verb, and in the context of the argument the RAW was clearly using the Verb, while those looking to twist the RAW to their advantage liked the Noun better. But I'll agree that it was indeed amongst the dumbest arguments I've heard, I just think that the dumb was on the other side from that which you obviously support.

mockingbyrd7
2007-12-17, 10:47 PM
Evil Elitist, that is freaking hilarious.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 10:53 PM
Evil Elitist, that is freaking hilarious.

Which one

The formor is a really scary paladin code

The latter is from reading to much tv-tropes and watching WAYYYYYYYYYYY to much of three hundred

The funny thing is after he did that, the rest of teh party just came down and talked to teh warcheiftan and convinced him that this was the land of the half naked crazy people and he should attack somewhere else. Six month laters, when this incident was forgotten, he did, their homeland
from,
EE

Bosh
2007-12-17, 11:19 PM
Person on the Wizards boards: it is good if rules are broken and don't make sense because that way the DM will get practice fixing them via house rules and will become a better DM. If you have well-written rules then the DM will get lazy and the game will be worse.

Kizara
2007-12-17, 11:25 PM
Person on the Wizards boards: it is good if rules are broken and don't make sense because that way the DM will get practice fixing them via house rules and will become a better DM. If you have well-written rules then the DM will get lazy and the game will be worse.

Gold Star.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 11:29 PM
here is teh smartest dumb argument

For maybe 75% of teh champion the PC were working in the Imperial empire backing one the greatest generals in quite a few wars. However, the paladin has come to suspect that he is in fact going to make himself a tyrant. The paladin and the bard take a while before deciding to talk most of teh party into killing him, as he detects as evil,. The characters who doesn't go along is that same rouge and the wizard. Both surrendered, but the rouge said he would go along with them. THe wizard suggested they should be the new leaders, but the paladin said they did it for justice. he then went out side and made a dramatic speech that he spent a few weeks writing telling the people why the general was an evil bastard. Teh crowed loved it and gather to him

Then the rouge comes up and turns to the crowed and say

"Friends, Humans, country men lend me your ears. I come to bury Magnus not to praise him." You can see where it went from there
from,
EE

Serenity
2007-12-17, 11:44 PM
Good god...everything there is too, too perfect. They must have planned that! Good show!

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 11:53 PM
Good god...everything there is too, too perfect. They must have planned that! Good show!

I really want to know, teh paladin claims he didn't but it was just to perfect. And after that i had to give them what they wanted, just because it was so awsome
from,
EE

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-18, 12:31 AM
There is a person on this board (whose name escapes me at this time) whose .sig includes words to the effect that you can't use an English definition to contradict the rules. Yes, if A touches B, B touches A. But "touch" is both a Noun and a Verb, and in the context of the argument the RAW was clearly using the Verb, while those looking to twist the RAW to their advantage liked the Noun better. But I'll agree that it was indeed amongst the dumbest arguments I've heard, I just think that the dumb was on the other side from that which you obviously support.

True, you can not make a logical statement by pure english, you need to use formal language and by formal language that is a true statement. However, that is not at all a dumb statement because it is out of context I actually use stuff like that in computer science. Its called a directed graph where you have a set of points and edges that connect them (read: touch them). The edges are directed so that you can go from point A to B but you can't go the other way. This is implemented in networking.

Formal language:
Where Txy = x touches y
Tab -> ~Tba

That statement is logically valid because Tab and Tba are completely different statements and thus the negation of one does not affect the other. If you want a more in depth proof, I'll go into more detail, but anyway, I think my point is clear.

Kompera
2007-12-18, 01:03 AM
If you want a more in depth proof, I'll go into more detail, but anyway, I think my point is clear.Heh, thanks but none is needed. :smallsmile:

I prefer, despite years of calculus and applied engineering, to think in simple terms. If you and your sibling are in the back seat of your parents car, and your sibling is poking you with his finger constantly while you just sit there and complain, when the parents turn around and ask "All right you kids, who is touching whom?", would you confess to guilt because your arm touched his forefinger every time you were poked? I think the answer becomes quite clear even discussing it in grade school terms. :smalltongue:

Tren
2007-12-18, 01:53 AM
I once had a munchkin try to argue that he should be able to jump out of a 3rd story window, tumble to avoid taking damage, stand up, and take a full-attack all in one round.:smallannoyed:

He didn't particularly have any reasoning, this player just always wants to able to WTFPWN everything. He threw a fit tonight when I told him he couldn't throw his alchemists fire at an opponent in a square adjacent to him without splashing himself and one of the other party members.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-18, 10:11 AM
* Monks are balanced because they can use UMD.
* Fighters are balanced because they can use Leadership.
* Casters are balanced because their study time can be interrupted every day.
* Druids are balanced because it is sometimes possible to disable their animal companion.
* Gate is balanced because the creature gated in will seek vengeance on the gater afterwards, regardless of situation or alignment.
* Polymorph is balanced because every class can use it.
* If your character is ineffective, it is a good strategy to hamper your party members to bring them down to your level.
* If a player isn't doing everything he can to let a weak party member contribute meaningfully to an encounter, he is behaving like a stupid egoist.
* If a highly specific build of class X made particularly for this situation can possibly defeat a generic all-round build of class Y, it follows that both classes are equally viable in normal play.
* My friend's cousin's neighbor's former roommate had fun playing class X, and therefore class X is not underpowered.

And of course the ultimate,
* House ruling causes game imbalance, because third edition is balanced as written.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 10:32 AM
Link vs. Seph
Sauron vs. Voldemort
Klington vs. Uruk-hai (i'm sorry, after seeing that weapon i laughed until i cried
from,
EE

ALOR
2007-12-18, 10:49 AM
I once had a player who argued for a good hour that the "mattock of the titans" should be able to utilize the weapon finesse feat. His argument being martial arts masters use hammers in wepon displays. It really was the absolute dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Treguard
2007-12-18, 11:27 AM
From a couple of sessions ago, bearing in mind that we've all been gaming for a few years now:

Player: Okay so I 5' step and hit him with my lance.
DM: Oka- wait lances aren't reach weapons, you can't attack from there.
Player: Huh?
DM: They're not reach weapons, look it up.

I look a bit bewildered at our DM and am about to lay into him when at this point another player, who reeally should know better, interjects and also agrees that they aren't reach weapons.

At this point the rest of us turn to yell at them and the argument only gets resolved when, as a group, we pore through the weapons section of the PHB to discover that, yes indeed, lances, those 10 ft long poles with pointy ends, are in fact reach weapons.

So the DM finally ceded and the sheningans thus came to a close. The attack missed as well.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 11:50 AM
I once got into an argument with my DM about how a particular action should have killed my character. I was arguing for death...

Laurellien
2007-12-18, 12:07 PM
Although I happen not to think it dumb, it sounds dumb.

Hulk Hogan and the Rock vs. Sauron and Voldemort.

Swordguy
2007-12-18, 12:12 PM
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/katana.jpg

Friggin' anime fanbois...

Heliomance
2007-12-18, 12:22 PM
They so can! But only when wielded by a samurai. Who are almost as cool as ninjas.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 12:24 PM
I once got into an argument with my DM about how a particular action should have killed my character. I was arguing for death...

how did that come about?


Friggin' anime fanbois...
the irony is they aren't even that good of a weapon. Worked great in Japan, isn't very good outside of that
from,
EE

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 12:28 PM
Friggin' anime fanbois...
Hey, I argued for that when I was a Kurosawa fanboi.

Speaking of which: "They're turning D&D into anime!"
"They're turning D&D into WoW/Diablo 2/Everquest/City of Heroes!"

Damned if WotC isn't failing at discouraging the WoW comparisons, though. "Elite" monsters? They couldn't have picked a different name?

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 12:31 PM
how did that come about?


Grappling an BBEG with AMF up and falling off of a flying dragon. The rest of the party was trying to get down to where they could hit the BBEG via dimension door and the like and my character was going to hang tight until they both crashed into the ground and died if they couldn't. There were issues about relative falling speeds and such. Many catgirls died that night.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 12:35 PM
Grappling an BBEG with AMF up and falling off of a flying dragon. The rest of the party was trying to get down to where they could hit the BBEG via dimension door and the like and my character was going to hang tight until they both crashed into the ground and died if they couldn't. There were issues about relative falling speeds and such. Many catgirls died that night.

Heheheh, the death of catgirls makes me happy
from,
EE

Roderick_BR
2007-12-18, 01:02 PM
There is a person on this board (whose name escapes me at this time) whose .sig includes words to the effect that you can't use an English definition to contradict the rules. Yes, if A touches B, B touches A. But "touch" is both a Noun and a Verb, and in the context of the argument the RAW was clearly using the Verb, while those looking to twist the RAW to their advantage liked the Noun better. But I'll agree that it was indeed amongst the dumbest arguments I've heard, I just think that the dumb was on the other side from that which you obviously support.

It reminds me of my friend, that discussed with me that a high level cleric could spontaneously cast Heal.
Lemme show his logic:
In Portuguese, we don't have distinct words for "healing" and "cure".
Ok, so the "Cure xxx Wounds" line of spells are translated into "Curar Ferimentos xxx" (Cure is Curar, and Wounds is Ferimentos).
Then there's Heal, that was translated as "Cura Completa", something like "Complete Cure". Hey, that was the best the translators could come up with.
Anyway, my friend claimed that a cleric could convert any spell into a "Heal" (Cura), because it have "Cure" (Curar) in the name.
I claimed that it was "not how it works"(tm), and even said the original name of the spell (Heal). He said it didn't matter, since he was reading it in Portuguese, he could do it. :smallannoyed:
Anyway, I shot him down when I noticed that "Curar ferimentos" had Cure as a verb in the infinitive (the "R" in the end), and "Cura completa" was in noum format (it lacked the "R" in the end) so he finally gave him.
But seriously, using a translation or definition error as base for RAI, and pretend it is RAW is stupid.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-12-18, 01:14 PM
*it would take too much time to explain the background info of this exchange, so I'll jump right to the argument*

Me (the DM): Alright, as soon as 'npc x' sees you, he charges at you with madness in his eye, screaming "Murderers!"
PC1: Damn, what's he so pissed about? I'll tell him we saw the error of our ways and are joining up with him.
Me: Ok, he seems to ignore what you said and swings his sword at you, slicing a deep wound across your chest.
PC2: Maybe he's pissed about that hussy we just killed. I think she was part of their group. I'll tell him we're sorry that his friend died.
Me: Alright, he seems to get more enraged, and doesn't soften up at all, shouting that you'll pay for killing his sister.
PC2: Oh crap... that's why he's so pissed. That's stupid, we didn't mean to kill her.
Me: Ummm he doesn't really know that.
PC2: Oh... What do we do? I don't really want to kill him. My character will heal PC1.
PC1: Don't worry, if we're not supposed to kill him, the DM'll stop it somehow, like in Diablo they don't let you attack friendly NPCs even if you know they betray you.
PC3: I roll diplomacy. Alright, 36. He's friendly now so he'll stop attacking.
Me: What?
PC3: *shows me the diplomacy table* See, he goes from hostile to friendly.
Me: But.... you just rolled. Your PC hasn't actually done anything to... diplomize him, or given him a reason to stop attacking or even anything at all to calm him down.
PC2: It doesn't matter. He rolled really high. NPC X is our friend now.
Me: That's ridiculous!?!?!
PC1: It's how it works.
Me: *looks over diplomacy rules* Alright, fine... but I'm going to add in some circumstance modifiers for the situation.
PC3: Go ahead.
Me: Ok, you didn't take the full minute, so that's a -10 to the check, you didn't say anything helpful, he's not listening too carefully to you, plus he sort of really wants to kill all of you, so I'll add a -10 circumstance penalty. So that's a 16 overall. He's still quite incensed.
PC3: *looking really pissed off* Are you serious? Holy @#$%! Stop hosing my character and railroading the game!
PC1: Can we get back to the action? I'm getting bored...
PC4: Yeah, I've got some orbs of acid I need to unload. Is it my turn yet?

There were multiple ways of resolving the situation peacefully without even resorting to diplomacy checks, or simply subduing NPC X without killing him, but the party ended up killing him anyways.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-18, 01:21 PM
PC1: Don't worry, if we're not supposed to kill him, the DM'll stop it somehow, like in Diablo they don't let you attack friendly NPCs even if you know they betray you.

That is one of the dumbest things ever. It is completely untrue (at least in my games). One of my players attacked a god at 15th level once. I don't hod back, though he was currently under the protection of a more powerful god, so he wasn't killed, just thrown out of the offended god's domain.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-12-18, 01:26 PM
That is one of the dumbest things ever. It is completely untrue (at least in my games). One of my players attacked a god at 15th level once. I don't hod back, though he was currently under the protection of a more powerful god, so he wasn't killed, just thrown out of the offended god's domain.

Same here. They had to do alot of extra work to try and fix the debacle they created. 2 of my players treat D&D as 'non-PC Diablo' (much to my chagrin...) and get bored whenever there isn't a fight going on.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-18, 01:45 PM
Same here. They had to do alot of extra work to try and fix the debacle they created. 2 of my players treat D&D as 'non-PC Diablo' (much to my chagrin...) and get bored whenever there isn't a fight going on.

I feel your pain, I have one player who is all about combat (though he is a lot better) then there is one that's just too erratic to categorize, but most of the time he is combat-focused.

Cristo Meyers
2007-12-18, 01:51 PM
*it would take too much time to explain the background info of this exchange, so I'll jump right to the argument*

Me (the DM): Alright, as soon as 'npc x' sees you, he charges at you with madness in his eye, screaming "Murderers!"
PC1: Damn, what's he so pissed about? I'll tell him we saw the error of our ways and are joining up with him.
Me: Ok, he seems to ignore what you said and swings his sword at you, slicing a deep wound across your chest.
PC2: Maybe he's pissed about that hussy we just killed. I think she was part of their group. I'll tell him we're sorry that his friend died.
Me: Alright, he seems to get more enraged, and doesn't soften up at all, shouting that you'll pay for killing his sister.
PC2: Oh crap... that's why he's so pissed. That's stupid, we didn't mean to kill her.
Me: Ummm he doesn't really know that.
PC2: Oh... What do we do? I don't really want to kill him. My character will heal PC1.
PC1: Don't worry, if we're not supposed to kill him, the DM'll stop it somehow, like in Diablo they don't let you attack friendly NPCs even if you know they betray you.
PC3: I roll diplomacy. Alright, 36. He's friendly now so he'll stop attacking.
Me: What?
PC3: *shows me the diplomacy table* See, he goes from hostile to friendly.
Me: But.... you just rolled. Your PC hasn't actually done anything to... diplomize him, or given him a reason to stop attacking or even anything at all to calm him down.
PC2: It doesn't matter. He rolled really high. NPC X is our friend now.
Me: That's ridiculous!?!?!
PC1: It's how it works.
Me: *looks over diplomacy rules* Alright, fine... but I'm going to add in some circumstance modifiers for the situation.
PC3: Go ahead.
Me: Ok, you didn't take the full minute, so that's a -10 to the check, you didn't say anything helpful, he's not listening too carefully to you, plus he sort of really wants to kill all of you, so I'll add a -10 circumstance penalty. So that's a 16 overall. He's still quite incensed.
PC3: *looking really pissed off* Are you serious? Holy @#$%! Stop hosing my character and railroading the game!
PC1: Can we get back to the action? I'm getting bored...
PC4: Yeah, I've got some orbs of acid I need to unload. Is it my turn yet?

There were multiple ways of resolving the situation peacefully without even resorting to diplomacy checks, or simply subduing NPC X without killing him, but the party ended up killing him anyways.

Situations like this are why I don't let people use Diplomacy when combat has begun. Bluff too. They have to restrain or otherwise subdue the person before diplomatizing (usually accomplished by having the half-orc sit on the person in question).

Wraithy
2007-12-18, 01:53 PM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

Serenity
2007-12-18, 02:53 PM
"Tome of Battle is an awful, overpowered book that just makes fighters into anime wizards!"

The Linker
2007-12-18, 02:54 PM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

...

That makes me sad.

Edit: But now I'm happy I started the 3rd page!

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 03:13 PM
"Tome of Battle is an awful, overpowered book that just makes fighters into anime wizards!"

That's not an argument. It's a statement.


I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

I hope you like text (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10).

Wooter
2007-12-18, 03:17 PM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

*spit-take*

Serenity
2007-12-18, 03:25 PM
That's not an argument. It's a statement.

Many people are arguing that that statement is true. That is ridiculous.

reorith
2007-12-18, 03:27 PM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

link plox.

i had a player try to argue that a monk should be proficient with the katana because monks are asian inspired or something. yeah even after i mentioned how asia wasn't part of my campaign setting. i told him no. and even when he still used it at -4 to hit.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 03:34 PM
Many people are arguing that that statement is true. That is ridiculous.

...You see, the problem I'm finding is that it is not clear to me how that statement is ridiculous [other than anime wizards don't usually use swords to cut their way through their opponent--although stranger things have happened]. Perhaps if you were to clarify, instead of simply stating that as 'dumbest argument you've heard'.

GimliFett
2007-12-18, 03:42 PM
I hope you like text (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10).

Penny arcade FTW! That was probably the best strip from PA in ages!

Serenity
2007-12-18, 03:55 PM
* Tome of Battle is not overpowered. It raises the effectiveness of melee combatants out of the ditch and gives them a number of cool options, rather than making them reliant on a handful of specific builds that make them powerful when able to perform certain repetitive tricks. It's been demonstrated that a Fighter is able to out-damage the Warblade; the Warblade just has several interesting things to do besides simply Power Attacking for full every turn.

* Tome of Battle does not fix the caster/fighter imbalance by making fighters supernatural. The Warblade does not have natural access to any supernatural abilities. He can gain a smattering with the expenditure of few feats, but any character can do much the same thing. The Swordsage and arguably the Crusader do have access to supernatural abilities, but they don't have to take them, and, well, no one complains about the Paladin and Monk having supernatural abilities.

* Does ToB have anime influences? Certainly, there's no denying that maneuvers can be used to replicate amazing feats from some shounen or wuxia movies. But when 'anime' is used in the context of this argument, it's used to claim that anything resembling Martial Arts is inherently Eastern, or that using ToB requires you to play a ridiculous stereotyped superman who calls out funny names all the time when he attacks, etc. Sure, you can play that. If you want to. You can also use it to create a gritty, determined warrior who is very talented and effective with his blade.

Laurellien
2007-12-18, 03:58 PM
"Hey, just because we're using metagame knowledge, doesn't mean that the bad guys can too!"

Snadgeros
2007-12-18, 05:31 PM
Also, does anybody knwo at what point my postcount gets me to something more than a dwarf?

No, and we're not supposed to. Even if we did know, we're not supposed to talk about it. It's kinda like Fight Club.:smallconfused: Anyway, there are rules specifically stating that the titles are just for fun and posting simply to up your count is spamming. Discussing the specific numbers is not allowed and you shouldn't concern yourself with it. Just keep coming to these forums and it will eventually work its way up.:smallsmile:

KoDT69
2007-12-18, 06:28 PM
OK so there's this guy who is my friend and DM's his own campaigns when he's not playing in mine. I was a player in his campaigns for the following examples. Mind you, anybody reading my other posts, this is the same "other DM". We have quite a few varied opinions. First and foremost, he likes to exxaggerate his knowledge of RAW. He has some off-the-cuff interpretations so outlandish that his houseruled mechanics are based off of the D&D artwork of magic items and such, but since he claims to have started 13 years ago he's an expert on D&D RAW. You'll see he failed that bluff check horribly. We'll start in 2nd edition.

A group of 18th level PC's (about 11 players, big group) are on a mountaintop plateau made when the Mage used some Quest type spell to slice off the peak, leaving a sheer icy 200ft diameter platform. Enter the demonic hordes. something like 70 true Tanar'ri beseige us through a single gate spell from an enemy caster. Yes OK you see where his mentality is taking this story, and the Mage in question is none other than his own DMPC, and he has trouble being fair with his DMPCs. So, some demons take flight and some stay on the mountain. The Mage casts fly on himself and the fighter. I was the Cleric but for this time was able to fly on my own power. The Mage starts with the winning initiative. Brace yourselves... he draws a Frostbrand bastard sword (2e rule: +3 enhance, +6 vs. fire based, and if placed into a flame had 50% chance to extinguish even if magically created)... and a decanter of endless water (similar rule 5 gallons per round, nothing spectacular, and not even a rule to damage with it in 2e)... then somehow turns it into a fire hydrant by his description (firehose maybe by RAW :smallsigh: ) shooting his water across the blade of his frostbrand sword. He claimed that the water hit his frozen sword and instantly turned into ice :smallconfused: . Yeah, OK sure, but that's not even the good part... It turned into a 10ft wide 80ft long glacier that fell onto a bunch of the enemies and pushed more off the edge of the mountain. :smallmad: OK so after calling foul on that, I informed him that in no way did the DMG claim any icy properties but even if it did, shooting 5 gallons across it would produce such small bits of ice at that speed that they would not cause damage and eventually build up on the blade causing it to obstruct the aim of the water. He breaks out some book with an artist's rendition of Kirren's Frostbrand which was shedding small ice crystals. We argued for 6 hours and his father who was a player talked me into just going with the nonsense so we could move on. But he never let anything even remotely cheesey fly with the players, just his DMPC.

Same turd, converts to 3rd edition. I refused to play 3E for like a year after it came out and DMed with another group when I did convert. 5 years later I finally joined his game table again with him as DM. We did nearly nothing because of his sole focus on his father's barbarian backstory, then we fought like 3 ogres. at 8th level we got like 12,000XP or somesuch. I figured best to leave it be and ask about it later since his regular players were so thrilled. Next game, some PCs 2 levels higher, we face 3 Storm Giants which was a good fight I'll agree, even though he ignored their casting abilities (or chance thereof anyway). Again only one encounter and a bunch of RP. End of the night, 120,000XP! I literally stood up and yelled what WTF stands for at him. They all looked at me like I was a tard. I asked him to justify giving that amount of XP for one night. He breaks out the XP table and says we fought 3 giants of CR 12 or whatever they were for his purpose, and there were 3. 3x12=36 he says. Encounter level 36 = buttloads of XP. :smallconfused: What? I couldn't believe my ears. The guy who was claiming equal D&D time and superior RAW knowledge never even read the DMG. He looked at some charts and assumed the rules. 5 years after 3E and I had to teach him to DM. He still claims he just read it wrong and never checked it, but I know he's full of it. After I taught him how to give out XP I asked his regulars if he has done that the whole time, to which they said yes. Apparently their average characters were 150th level after about 6 weeks of playing, all of his monsters had arbitrary abilites and stats, and every character was weilding +30 artifact weapons with names like "God-Slayer" and "God-Spear", and to top it off, he did a 2e to 3e conversion on his Mage so he now arbitrarily has a level 150 Wizard with every magic item in the book and 500 billion gp worth of treasure after only 12 weeks of play. Yeah, I still hang out and play video games with him and stuff, but I won't play in one of his campaigns EVER again. Funny story though, he begged me to join his last epic level god-campain where the PC's literally had divine ranks, except me, the arcane caster he wanted so bad in the game. I started as a level 13 Sorcerer / 5 Archmage while everyone else was level 35 or more.... and I STILL BROKE HIS GAME! Thanks GitP & TNL for the tips to show his punk buttocks how it's done. :smallbiggrin:

Bosh
2007-12-18, 07:46 PM
Same here. They had to do alot of extra work to try and fix the debacle they created. 2 of my players treat D&D as 'non-PC Diablo' (much to my chagrin...) and get bored whenever there isn't a fight going on.

Well not as silly as DMs treating D&D as PC Diablo:
"And now as I move my Diablo character through the Dungeon you can get a good look at where your characters are."
It was for a Diablo adventure, but STILL!

For people who love fights build the RP into the fight. Like in the original Starwars the bit in the deathstar is pretty much non-stop action but plenty of RP...

KIDS
2007-12-18, 08:00 PM
"Your character can't be a paladin because a paladin is based on Lancelot and your character isn't as knightly as him, nor even male."
It really made me mad at a time, now I just laugh at it and find a more imaginative DM.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 09:32 PM
"Your character can't be a paladin because a paladin is based on Lancelot and your character isn't as knightly as him, nor even male."
It really made me mad at a time, now I just laugh at it and find a more imaginative DM.

Ok, i thought mine was stuipid, that just wins
from,
EE

Riffington
2007-12-18, 09:45 PM
You can't do that because the books don't give any rules for it.

Accountant
2007-12-18, 10:52 PM
Dumbest arguement I've ever heard?

Well, anything from over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 11:12 PM
Eh, at least they're predictable.

Swordguy
2007-12-18, 11:26 PM
They so can! But only when wielded by a samurai. Who are almost as cool as ninjas.

Dont...even...start... :smallfurious:

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 11:42 PM
Dumbest arguement I've ever heard?

Well, anything from over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22)

same can be said for any board, not cool
from
EE

Suzuro
2007-12-18, 11:44 PM
Okay, here's one that happened.


Player: I use Create Water to make water in his throat!
DM: You can't do that.
PLayer: *Looks through spell description* Yeah, yeah I can! It doesn't say it can't!
DM: *looks at description* Are...are you serious? RIGHT THERE! FIRST LINE! Cannot create it in another object!
PLayer: Well, it..it didn't...
DM: Ya know what? Magical Backlash! You're drowning in water as six gallons of water floods your throat!


The rest of the battle, he spent on the ground so the water didn't kill him.




-Suzuro

Admiral Squish
2007-12-18, 11:51 PM
Stupidest argument ever? Over how one could theoretically bind a yuan-ti with a snake tail. Of course, at the same time, we were trying to figure out how to make a gag out of a silk rope. Slipped between her jaws wouldn't keep her from screaming. We ended up tying it around her chin and up over her head, though I doubt that would have worked.

Then there was one completely unrelated to D&D over how one would tunnel through the earth at any measurable speed at any appreciable size. It continued whenever we saw each other throughout the school day, and went complete with motions. We looked completely crazy.

Superglucose
2007-12-18, 11:58 PM
This one requires background.

I decide to play an elf ranger, who for various reasons is quite racist against humans and orcs (moreso against orcs, but he hates humans as well.) He earns his money hunting humans (and occasionally orcs, but usually he just does that for fun), and is CG (he hunts prisoners who escaped, and only kills when they resist. He delights in killing humans, it's true, but truly believes he's working for the betterment of the world, because he was indoctrinated by his brother (epic wizard) that humans are evil and need to die).

So in this quest, my character has to get something from the guard in a human town. My character. No other character. So the DM decides it'd be a good idea to put a half-orc in charge of the guard, and I have to talk to him. No biggie, right? I get to talking to him for a while, but I'm kind of annoyed, because I have to play my elf in character, meaning he'll have to say or do something.

So this orc makes a crack about my elf's pointy ears, and I decide that means my character makes a crack right back about him being ugly. Fine and good right?

Well then she (the dm) decides that the half-orc is so offended he refuses to deal with the party. quest over.

I told her afterwards that I didn't appreciate her putting a half orc there because I was kind of torn between playing in character and losing the quest for the party. The party wasn't mad at me, but I still was kind of annoyed.

She argued that she gave me a perfectly reasonable situation, and that she put the half-orc there because she thought it would be interesting.

I said, "Ok, but... just so you know, you can expect me to play in character. And in character, my character hates orcs enough to kill them for fun, and he hates humans too, so crossing them is pretty bad in his eyes. He can't really be civil around them, and we've already made this clear."

She argued that it was my responsibility as the player to change my roleplaying to the situatoin for the betterment of the party.

I'm sorry, I'm not changing a character who was established as racist SINCE THE TIME OF CHARACTER GENERATION just so we can move one quest along.

Then she made a situation where I had a choice of playing in character or staying alive. I... played in character, but left shortly afterwards. Her reasoning was that she was trying to teach me that racism is wrong or something.

Annoying as hell.

TimeWizard
2007-12-19, 12:19 AM
Argument != Story.

Argument: Time Stop isn't broken.

Story: Improbable event, Nat. 20!

Gungnir
2007-12-19, 12:23 AM
Player: I use Create Water to make water in his throat!

I always have wondered why mages can get strong enough to Stop Time Itself, but they can't just pop a few blood vessels in some poor victims brain FTW.

Well, in the game at least. I'm sure they've caused quite a few aneurysms on the d20 board.

LurkerInPlayground
2007-12-19, 12:32 AM
I always have wondered why mages can get strong enough to Stop Time Itself, but they can't just pop a few blood vessels in some poor victims brain FTW.

Well, in the game at least. I'm sure they've caused quite a few aneurysms on the d20 board.

Finger of Death

Circle of Death

Any spell with a death effect.

Raroy
2007-12-19, 12:34 AM
I always have wondered why mages can get strong enough to Stop Time Itself, but they can't just pop a few blood vessels in some poor victims brain FTW.

Well, in the game at least. I'm sure they've caused quite a few aneurysms on the d20 board.

Well time is not even one dimensional (It only moves forward) so that means its simple. Its so simple thats it's more easier to understand then basic anatomy.

Obviously.

Superglucose
2007-12-19, 12:49 AM
Argument != Story.

Argument: Time Stop isn't broken.

Story: Improbable event, Nat. 20!

There was an argument, but there was also a necessary story behind it. The argument was that I should change my character's personality to suit the moment. Sorry if that wasn't clear all.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-19, 03:30 AM
Watch Field of Dreams, when Costner and wife are debating in town hall with the neighbors.
There's some good things in this thread, but they don't beat that.

Also, Gov McCarthy, "She's a commie because she has pink panties" during the era of McCarthism.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-19, 08:41 AM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

Technically, WoW is a ripoff of DnD...

Danzaver
2007-12-19, 10:18 AM
I don't really have arguments over rules in my game. I just refer everybody to the bit about: DM = supreme power. Rules = optional. I figure, as long as I don't abuse it, nothing goes wrong. When I do have arguments in my game, I usually end up rewarding roleplaying experience.

But I am reminded of the stupidest argument (non RP-related) I have ever taken part in.

Person A says that America would really benefit from having a black president.

Person B maintains that person A is being racist against white people, and anyone who argues otherwise (including me) is also a racist.

*banjo plays*

*facepalm*

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-19, 10:23 AM
Technically, WoW is a ripoff of DnD...
http://will.incorrige.us/facepalm/picard.jpeg

We know. Hence the link to the Penny Arcade rant that's basically about the same thing relating to Warcraft and Warhammer.

Craig1f
2007-12-19, 11:18 AM
More like World of Dungeons. And Dragons. Craft.










Note I have never played WoW

Magnax
2007-12-19, 11:49 AM
I used to play with a DM who, while he was quite good at organizing and running a session, wasn't the most enjoyable guy to play with. He was big on everything we do having consequences. This is good in principle, but it often resulted in him expecting the players to read his mind and punishing us when we didn't.

This is among the dumber arguments I've had with this DM. Our group was fighting some cultists inside a manor we'd been exploring, and at some point during the fight our party wizard killed an enemy using Burning Hands. Afterwards the following dialogue ensued:

Me: Well, that's taken care of. I'll spend a couple of minutes checking the bodies for loot.
DM: Alright, you find X gold pieces and some equipment. The house is now burning down around you.
Me: What? Why?
DM: The wizard cast burning hands. The house is made of wood, and it caught fire. Instead of putting out the fire, you wasted time looting the bodies, and the fire spread.
Me: Dude, you can't neglect to tell us that the room we're in caught fire. That's pretty important information.
DM: The room was made of wood, you should have assumed.
Me: But you never mentioned the room was made of wood!
DM: Well, what did you think it was made of?
Me: Stone? I don't know, because you never mentioned it!
DM: Well, maybe you should have had thought ahead.

:smallyuk:

Thinker
2007-12-19, 12:08 PM
Link vs. Seph
Sauron vs. Voldemort
Klington vs. Uruk-hai (i'm sorry, after seeing that weapon i laughed until i cried
from,
EE

Its spelled Klingon, not Klington.
Just because your opinion is wrong, it does not make other people's argument a stupid one.

Its Rogue, not Rouge.
Get a dictionary.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 12:15 PM
For a thinker, that's pretty rash.

Now, more "seriously" is that weapon is a bat'leth (the classic Klingon wep), be prepared. Many live and die by the bat'leth.

horseboy
2007-12-19, 01:10 PM
I once had to argue with a player for twenty minutes that yes, elves in fact... COULD get lycanthropy. His character was an elf, and despite having absolutely NO proof of this, save "I know I read it somewhere", he fought with me for a needlessly long time about it.

The funny part... He had taken a mere 3 damage from said Lycanthrope in the fight... back in a second edition game. Meaning he had a 3% chance of actually getting the affliction. Most pointless arguement ever.

Editions prior to Ravenloft this was true. Demi-humans died instead of becoming Lycanthopes. It was why the reveal of the Dwarven were-badger such a big deal in Knight of the Black Rose.
I don't know why I spoilered that, you shouldn't get spoilers on stuff over 10 years old.

chrono
2007-12-19, 02:51 PM
A fellow player once argued that his female chaotic neutral halfling rogue was in fact entirely justified to act CE. Because you see, CN females act the same as CE males and it is nothing less than good roleplay to attack teammates on that premise.

Danzaver
2007-12-19, 03:08 PM
A fellow player once argued that his female chaotic neutral halfling rogue was in fact entirely justified to act CE. Because you see, CN females act the same as CE males and it is nothing less than good roleplay to attack teammates on that premise.

XD...

So... What do CE females act like...? Should I even be asking?

chrono
2007-12-19, 03:25 PM
Another game, similar argument:

Argument:
Paladins (the original LG type) are trained warriors and are therefore perfectly justified in using force whenever they see fit, regardless of the situation.
In context, a cleric disagreed with the paladin's assumption that everybody should naturally follow his flawed leadership. The cleric wasn't really suggesting violence or making threats or even being rude. He got attacked by the paladin with maximal force available. The GM was totally fine with it.

Ominous
2007-12-19, 04:45 PM
I saw some idiots on youtube arguing that DnD was a ripoff of WoW

Link please. I need a good laugh and that level of idiocy is sure to do it.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-19, 05:15 PM
Here are some good ones:

* Animal companions are more powerful than fighters!
* A commoner can do the same as a monk with magic items!
* Casters are never attacked while they prepare spells.

- Giacomo

Lochar
2007-12-19, 05:18 PM
Here are some good ones:

* Animal companions are more powerful than fighters!

- Giacomo

At first level they can be. Or the basic idea is actually that druid+animal companion > fighter.

tyckspoon
2007-12-19, 05:27 PM
Not especially game-related, but still the start of a long and headdesking argument:

Breakdancing is a valid and effective form of martial art.

Leicontis
2007-12-19, 05:31 PM
One of my fellow players in a game a few years back kept insisting that his character was Good. I'm not sure if he was insistent about a position on the Law-Chaos axis.

This is the (incredibly munchkin) item-crafter wizard who walked around with continuous Detect Evil, and whenever an Evil person commissioned a magic item from his shop, he'd curse the item. Can you say "Chaotic Evil"?

Greenfaun
2007-12-19, 05:38 PM
* Monks are balanced because they can use UMD.
* Fighters are balanced because they can use Leadership.
* Casters are balanced because their study time can be interrupted every day.
* Druids are balanced because it is sometimes possible to disable their animal companion.
* Gate is balanced because the creature gated in will seek vengeance on the gater afterwards, regardless of situation or alignment.
* Polymorph is balanced because every class can use it.
* If your character is ineffective, it is a good strategy to hamper your party members to bring them down to your level.
* If a player isn't doing everything he can to let a weak party member contribute meaningfully to an encounter, he is behaving like a stupid egoist.
* If a highly specific build of class X made particularly for this situation can possibly defeat a generic all-round build of class Y, it follows that both classes are equally viable in normal play.
* My friend's cousin's neighbor's former roommate had fun playing class X, and therefore class X is not underpowered.

And of course the ultimate,
* House ruling causes game imbalance, because third edition is balanced as written.

Hmm, all of these sound veeeeery familiar, as if I'd read them recently on this very board...

Nah, must be a coincidence. :)

As for me, my stupid arguments can't hold a candle to some of the gems in this thread so far. Not even the one about thermite.

Edit: No, wait, I did once have a kid who knew everything about computers and nothing about anything else tell me that he hated Lord of the Rings because J.R.R Tolkien was clearly just ripping off D&D. :smalleek:

CrazedGoblin
2007-12-19, 05:49 PM
Link please. I need a good laugh and that level of idiocy is sure to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZczLuoJoU

search through the comments here, its there somehwere

EvilElitest
2007-12-19, 06:54 PM
Its spelled Klingon, not Klington.
Just because your opinion is wrong, it does not make other people's argument a stupid one.

Its Rogue, not Rouge.
Get a dictionary.

1. Bitter some?
2. Sorry, Klingon
3. I never said your argument was stupid, i was referring to the absurdity of the the thread itself, Uruk-hai fighting the dudes with the stupid weapons just makes me crack up
4. Bitter some
5. Oh yeah the Rogues hate being compared to makeup :smallwink:
6. Bitter bitter bitter
7. "Just because your option is wrong" oh that cracks me up, thanks for backing up your points
8. So funny, those sword things are so funny
9. Stop flaming, even infectivly
from
EE

Gerrtt
2007-12-19, 08:32 PM
Monk: I'm a monk, so in order to get the best use of the +2 gauntlets of ogre power I should get them.
Barbarian: I disagree, seeing how as I'm the only one in the party who ever hits anything in melee anyways, I should get them.
Monk: Um, hello? I'm a monk. We're all low level. We fight more skeletons than anything, and since I deal blunt damage, I need the item more than you.
Barbarian: So, this heavy flail I've been using the whole game doesn't deal blunt damage? Oh, might I also point out that you have weapon finnesse?
Monk: But I'm a monk, I need it more than you do because we fight so many skeletons.

Literally.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-20, 01:16 AM
Well, the Monk does need them more, but only because he's playing a gimped class.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-20, 08:21 AM
* A commoner can do the same as a monk with magic items!
The irony is that, despite you calling it "dumb", this argument is completely true. With the sole exception of a weapon of Ki Focus, every single item in core that can be used by a monk can also be used by a commoner, and any UMD check that a monk might make can also be made by a commoner of the same level. So yes, they both can do precisely the same with magic items. And the commoner doesn't have four ability scores that are generally considered more important to him than charisma is.

The underlying argument that actually is dumb, is the claim that "class X is good because it can do Y", where Y is something that can be done by every class. Common Ys I've seen in this forum are "using magical items", "leadership" and "paying NPCs to cast spells for them".

Craig1f
2007-12-20, 10:31 AM
Monk: I'm a monk, so in order to get the best use of the +2 gauntlets of ogre power I should get them.
Barbarian: I disagree, seeing how as I'm the only one in the party who ever hits anything in melee anyways, I should get them.
Monk: Um, hello? I'm a monk. We're all low level. We fight more skeletons than anything, and since I deal blunt damage, I need the item more than you.
Barbarian: So, this heavy flail I've been using the whole game doesn't deal blunt damage? Oh, might I also point out that you have weapon finnesse?
Monk: But I'm a monk, I need it more than you do because we fight so many skeletons.

Literally.

The barbarian should be using a two-handed weapon. If the +2 to strength raises his modifier from an odd to an even number, then he should get it, because it will boost his damage by 2, instead of 1.

Otherwise, the monk should get it, because he's worthless.

Mikeavelli
2007-12-20, 11:25 AM
"Your character can't be a paladin because a paladin is based on Lancelot and your character isn't as knightly as him, nor even male."
It really made me mad at a time, now I just laugh at it and find a more imaginative DM.

It gets even more precious when you realize that when the actually stated Lancelot up (Legends & Lore, 2nd edition style, he might have appeared in others without my knowledge): He was a Fighter, not a Paladin.


-----

In other news, I had a DM once who was infamous for lacking a sense of scale.

There's a mountain in the distance, it's our goal, so we walk towards it.
a year and a half later in-game time later, we finally reach it! This wasn't a "deadly journey" style one, this was a few random encounters and a long time traveling on foot.

"Wait, so we've been traveling a year and a half through uninhabited plains,* with the mountain in full view this entire time? This thing was visible from *calculates* five THOUSAND miles away?"
"Yes."
"Maybe it's a glaring plot hole? Wait, no, look out there, I think I can see Mount Everest in the distance!"
"And nobody at all lives in this land? We just walked one and a half times the width of the continental united states, and we didn't meet anyone but some random encounters!"
"It'll all get explained later on, there's a good reason for this."
"And for that matter, how the hell do 12 foot tall giants hide when there's nothing around but 2 foot tall grass?"
"Um, it's magic!"

*We randomly encountered some Plains giants.

He never did get around to explaining that, but did make a world map that showed the distance we covered to be pretty tiny compared to the size of the world. This sparked another tirade about how the world was the size of jupiter, and we're all dead because gravity just crushed us beneath the weight of our own skulls. Well, except the halfling, he's got enough strength he might be able to survive a couple days with how light he is.

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 12:02 PM
Anime is destroying everything
every thing is becoming anime


Anime is a medium, not a genra
if i open up a game, a vast supply of magical girls?
schoolgirls pining over unrequited love?
they have groups of friends traveling to time and space, leveling up to destroy there foes?


then it aint "anime"
also if it lacks the last one
it aint D and d

SpikeFightwicky
2007-12-20, 12:05 PM
It gets even more precious when you realize that when the actually stated Lancelot up (Legends & Lore, 2nd edition style, he might have appeared in others without my knowledge): He was a Fighter, not a Paladin.


-----

In other news, I had a DM once who was infamous for lacking a sense of scale.

There's a mountain in the distance, it's our goal, so we walk towards it.
a year and a half later in-game time later, we finally reach it! This wasn't a "deadly journey" style one, this was a few random encounters and a long time traveling on foot.

"Wait, so we've been traveling a year and a half through uninhabited plains,* with the mountain in full view this entire time? This thing was visible from *calculates* five THOUSAND miles away?"
"Yes."
"Maybe it's a glaring plot hole? Wait, no, look out there, I think I can see Mount Everest in the distance!"
"And nobody at all lives in this land? We just walked one and a half times the width of the continental united states, and we didn't meet anyone but some random encounters!"
"It'll all get explained later on, there's a good reason for this."
"And for that matter, how the hell do 12 foot tall giants hide when there's nothing around but 2 foot tall grass?"
"Um, it's magic!"

*We randomly encountered some Plains giants.

He never did get around to explaining that, but did make a world map that showed the distance we covered to be pretty tiny compared to the size of the world. This sparked another tirade about how the world was the size of jupiter, and we're all dead because gravity just crushed us beneath the weight of our own skulls. Well, except the halfling, he's got enough strength he might be able to survive a couple days with how light he is.

A 'more funny/less silly' version happened in our d20 Modern game. 3 of us infiltrated a manor to obtain something (the owners were out and we eluded detection), and we got to the master bedroom. The GM drew the room on our battlemat, and after looking at it closely, I asked him what a large 20x15 spot was. He said it was the master bed. The PCs kind of laughed, but the GM was serious. After about 20 minutes of discussion, he eventually realized how ridiculous a 20x15 foot bed would be in real life and shrunk it down to a more realistic size. To this day we still mention it as often as we can :smallbiggrin:

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 12:20 PM
Anime is destroying everything
every thing is becoming anime


Anime is a medium, not a genra
if i open up a game, a vast supply of magical girls?
schoolgirls pining over unrequited love?
they have groups of friends traveling to time and space, leveling up to destroy there foes?


then it aint "anime"
also if it lacks the last one
it aint D and d

K. Anime is a medium, not a genre. Nevermind such genres as "power up anime". Anime as a "medium" is destroying everything. Everything is slowly being influenced by this "medium". Better?

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 01:29 PM
K. Anime is a medium, not a genre. Nevermind such genres as "power up anime". Anime as a "medium" is destroying everything. Everything is slowly being influenced by this "medium". Better?


See this is the thing, i really dont see that.
A gang of rag tag heros leveling up untill they chalange the gods them selves, thats pretty D&D.
I havent seen any D&D games about a girl at an all boys school looking for love, but unable to tell any one because hey will find out what shes doing.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 02:14 PM
See this is the thing, i really dont see that.
A gang of rag tag heros leveling up untill they chalange the gods them selves, thats pretty D&D.
I havent seen any D&D games about a girl at an all boys school looking for love, but unable to tell any one because hey will find out what shes doing.

But the medium of anime provides a distinction within the genre. For example, some of the character interactions in an anime would be nonsensical in a D&D setting. Also, a medium that portrays a genre in a bad light (anime does this to fantasy) is bad for the genre. It's a matter of personal tastes, sure, but the lack of artistic depth in anime turns people off to fantasy in general. The argument is valid.

Also, a story about a bunch of characters on a linear power progression to reach a power level of "OVER 9000!!!" is viewed as appropriate for a role playing game, but not so in another medium, as it is poor entertainment to the spectator.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 02:16 PM
Anime is destroying everything
every thing is becoming anime


Anime is a medium, not a genra
if i open up a game, a vast supply of magical girls?
schoolgirls pining over unrequited love?
they have groups of friends traveling to time and space, leveling up to destroy there foes?


then it aint "anime"
also if it lacks the last one
it aint D and d

I'm not sure what's supposed the be the "dumbest argument" and what's supposed to be your response to it, here, I'm afraid.

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 02:23 PM
Record of Lodus War and Slayers show fantisy in a bad light?

And your completely right

no anime has ever had any artistic merit ever


But the medium of anime provides a distinction within the genre. For example, some of the character interactions in an anime would be nonsensical in a D&D setting. Also, a medium that portrays a genre in a bad light (anime does this to fantasy) is bad for the genre. It's a matter of personal tastes, sure, but the lack of artistic depth in anime turns people off to fantasy in general. The argument is valid.

Also, a story about a bunch of characters on a linear power progression to reach a power level of "OVER 9000!!!" is viewed as appropriate for a role playing game, but not so in another medium, as it is poor entertainment to the spectator.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 02:25 PM
Record of Lodus War and Slayers show fantisy in a bad light?

And your completely right

no anime has ever had any artistic merit ever

Yeah. Glad we cleared that up. :smallwink:

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 02:26 PM
I'm not sure what's supposed the be the "dumbest argument" and what's supposed to be your response to it, here, I'm afraid.


Sorry, thats my bad.
Every forum and message board i go to has people ranting.
"BLA BLA BLA Anime sucks, anime is evil, anime raped my dog, anime is destroying (comics, roleplaying games, novels, movies)

Crimson Avenger
2007-12-20, 04:19 PM
Sorry, thats my bad.
Every forum and message board i go to has people ranting.
"BLA BLA BLA Anime sucks, anime is evil, anime raped my dog, anime is destroying (comics, roleplaying games, novels, movies)

Is that technically object rape...and if so, you should get away from that neighborhood. (There's a hentai shop there, isn't there.)

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 04:49 PM
Is that technically object rape...and if so, you should get away from that neighborhood. (There's a hentai shop there, isn't there.)


Well it did perform the rape while in the from of a schoolgirl, in a mecha, with tenticals

horseboy
2007-12-20, 04:59 PM
Anime is destroying everything
every thing is becoming anime


I am SO sick of this one! Every time any thing happens in the gaming industry for the last, what, five years!
ZOMG IT TEH ANIME!!!!11111ONELEVENOMGWTFBBQW/LAZERSPEWPEW
I noticed it with the Tau, and it's not stopped since then.
"OMG Tau are Gundam!"
"Really, why don't they have titans, or even knights?"
"They're totally based off Gundams!"
"No, they're based off Inner sphere Elemental suits."
"They have guided missiles"
"WTH? Just because they're based off of a modern military and not a WWII military they're anime? Does that mean RECON guys using laser Targeting gear is anime?"
Man, it gets old.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 05:06 PM
I am SO sick of this one! Every time any thing happens in the gaming industry for the last, what, five years!

I just love the implication that something can apparently simultaneously "be":


Cowboy Bebop
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
Akira
Azumanga Daioh
Ghost in the Shell
Berserk


...without the common points of either a) being in Japanese or b) well, y'know, visual. Certainly there are common points in the art style of all the above, despite the many differences, but that doesn't affect an RPG much.

I'm especially amused by the idea that Berserk, for all its hyperviolence and gritty unpleasantness, is a horrible thing for D&D to resemble. I thought it felt quite like a well-made, low-magic fantasy setting while watching it. Well, until the bizarre ending.

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 05:17 PM
I'm especially amused by the idea that Berserk, for all its hyperviolence and gritty unpleasantness, is a horrible thing for D&D to resemble. I thought it felt quite like a well-made, low-magic fantasy setting while watching it. Well, until the bizarre ending.

I just wish that the games i play in could be as well thought out or as moving as
record of lodoss war

lisiecki
2007-12-20, 05:39 PM
Oh,

Also, the argument that anything, that the poster dosnt like has been made
"childsafe" or "cartoony" or "made politically correct"

In warhammer, i think the best example of this is when the blood god went from being the got of slaughter, to being the god of martial power (a move that was made to make the game more kidfrendly) then when he was brought back to the god of indiscriminate slaughter, people complained that he was made "cartoony"

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-20, 05:42 PM
Dumbest argument I've ever heard? I was going to say the arguments used by anyone convinced that intelligent design should be taken seriously as a science, but now I realize it should be themed to D&D on this board. So I'd say 'Which came first, the Avoral or the egg?' and then picking either side is pretty dumb and pointless.

On second thought, the 'D&D is selling out to/becoming/already is anime' argument is way more compelling. I'll vote for that one.

Didn't Record of Lodoss Wars actually consist of an actual D&D session, that was later rescripted to an anime (and manga, etc.)? You don't get much better proof that D&D is turning anime than that! :smalltongue:

Soniku
2007-12-20, 08:00 PM
The anime argument has to be the dumbest I've ever heard. If anything D&D is becoming LESS anime. Back when I started a high level fighter could full-attack his way around ye olde village killing all the generic NPC commoners and millitia and not take a single hit, the sort of thing that does happen a lot in most animes.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 09:25 PM
I am SO sick of this one! Every time any thing happens in the gaming industry for the last, what, five years!
ZOMG IT TEH ANIME!!!!11111ONELEVENOMGWTFBBQW/LAZERSPEWPEW
I noticed it with the Tau, and it's not stopped since then.
"OMG Tau are Gundam!"
"Really, why don't they have titans, or even knights?"
"They're totally based off Gundams!"
"No, they're based off Inner sphere Elemental suits."
"They have guided missiles"
"WTH? Just because they're based off of a modern military and not a WWII military they're anime? Does that mean RECON guys using laser Targeting gear is anime?"
Man, it gets old.

Sorry that you're tired of it. Doesn't make it any less true, though. :smallcool:

Neon Knight
2007-12-20, 09:52 PM
But the medium of anime provides a distinction within the genre. For example, some of the character interactions in an anime would be nonsensical in a D&D setting. Also, a medium that portrays a genre in a bad light (anime does this to fantasy) is bad for the genre. It's a matter of personal tastes, sure, but the lack of artistic depth in anime turns people off to fantasy in general. The argument is valid.

Also, a story about a bunch of characters on a linear power progression to reach a power level of "OVER 9000!!!" is viewed as appropriate for a role playing game, but not so in another medium, as it is poor entertainment to the spectator.

Therefore, we should also ban most modern fantasy literature and nearly all fantasy films. These can be said to portray fantasy in a bad light. Anyone who has seen the DnD movie or read some of the poor quality fantasy out there can agree with me.

The argument is invalid because, guess what? Bad/good light portrayal and artistic depth are subjective qualities dependent almost entirely upon the user. Quite honestly, people can draw subtext and deep, significant meaning from what amounts to pure smut, and fail to grasp the most insightful and cunning point no matter how obvious, apparent, and universal it appears.

And even if it is pointed out tot hem, not everyone finds subtext and artistic depth worthwhile qualities. Some find them pretentious wastes of time, and as alienating as any other influence that supposedly drives people off.

Every viewer of media brings with him his own context, personal tastes, and experiences which flavor his viewing. Anime does not induce these; many of these are inborn qualities decided arbitrarily or instinctively in a manner that cannot be consciously replicated. For the thousands the worship Tolkien, for example, as god, there are thousands who hate his works. Should we ban Tolkien because people who don't like Tolkien's vision are driven away by the perception that all fantasy is Tolkien based in nature? Hm?

At the end of the day, all that can be said is that any anime influence, if real, only diversifies the fantasy genre. Thus, the only reason for keeping it out is for elitist and purist reasons. Ascribing to this viewpoint is equivalent to saying "there is only one true fantasy." It's close-minded and bigoted in the extreme.

Quite frankly, all you are arguing for is your vision for the fantasy genre to reign supreme. You are arguing against freedom of speech. You are saying that these people, who like this hypothetical anime influence, are wrong and don't deserve to have their style of fantasy exist.

I cannot see how any thinking man who holds creativity and artistic expression dear can advocate this. And before you say, "there is no artistic expression or creativity to anime" once more consider that these qualities may not only be dependent on the beholder, but that your own favored brand is guilty of the same sin, and that even hedonistic and "shallow" material can display surprising profoundness and depth. Once could even argue that the quality of being for purely entertainment purposes infuses it with a depth and worthwhileness unpredictably in a work that deliberately sets out to be so. The pretentiousness of an academic is no different from the prejudice of the racist or the exclusiveness of children.

horseboy
2007-12-20, 10:14 PM
Sorry that you're tired of it. Doesn't make it any less true, though. :smallcool:

That's because it's a false statement. Just because you don't like anime doesn't mean that everything you may not like is becoming anime. I've never understood the "logic" employed in this argument.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 10:33 PM
That's because it's a false statement. Just because you don't like anime doesn't mean that everything you may not like is becoming anime. I've never understood the "logic" employed in this argument.

That may be true, but you can't deny that anime is becoming more and more mainstream. Therefore anime is beginning to influence more and more things in the realms of art, fantasy, and roleplaying games in general. This isn't a bad thing if you like anime. Unfortunately, I don't share the enthusiasm.

My personal preferences have no bearing on this little truth. And neither does the fact that you're tired of it being pointed out to you.

EvilElitest
2007-12-20, 10:40 PM
Dumbest argument I've ever heard? I was going to say the arguments used by anyone convinced that intelligent design should be taken seriously as a science

Hey, I became president of my debate club becaue of that argument. True, i had to BS to the extent that i blamed every single murder in the world on Charles Darwin but still
from,
EE

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 10:42 PM
Therefore, we should also ban most modern fantasy literature and nearly all fantasy films. These can be said to portray fantasy in a bad light. Anyone who has seen the DnD movie or read some of the poor quality fantasy out there can agree with me.

The argument is invalid because, guess what? Bad/good light portrayal and artistic depth are subjective qualities dependent almost entirely upon the user. Quite honestly, people can draw subtext and deep, significant meaning from what amounts to pure smut, and fail to grasp the most insightful and cunning point no matter how obvious, apparent, and universal it appears.

And even if it is pointed out tot hem, not everyone finds subtext and artistic depth worthwhile qualities. Some find them pretentious wastes of time, and as alienating as any other influence that supposedly drives people off.

Every viewer of media brings with him his own context, personal tastes, and experiences which flavor his viewing. Anime does not induce these; many of these are inborn qualities decided arbitrarily or instinctively in a manner that cannot be consciously replicated. For the thousands the worship Tolkien, for example, as god, there are thousands who hate his works. Should we ban Tolkien because people who don't like Tolkien's vision are driven away by the perception that all fantasy is Tolkien based in nature? Hm?

At the end of the day, all that can be said is that any anime influence, if real, only diversifies the fantasy genre. Thus, the only reason for keeping it out is for elitist and purist reasons. Ascribing to this viewpoint is equivalent to saying "there is only one true fantasy." It's close-minded and bigoted in the extreme.

Quite frankly, all you are arguing for is your vision for the fantasy genre to reign supreme. You are arguing against freedom of speech. You are saying that these people, who like this hypothetical anime influence, are wrong and don't deserve to have their style of fantasy exist.

I cannot see how any thinking man who holds creativity and artistic expression dear can advocate this. And before you say, "there is no artistic expression or creativity to anime" once more consider that these qualities may not only be dependent on the beholder, but that your own favored brand is guilty of the same sin, and that even hedonistic and "shallow" material can display surprising profoundness and depth. Once could even argue that the quality of being for purely entertainment purposes infuses it with a depth and worthwhileness unpredictably in a work that deliberately sets out to be so. The pretentiousness of an academic is no different from the prejudice of the racist or the exclusiveness of children.

What's with all the talk about banning things, keeping things out of the genre, and "arguing against free speech"? I didn't say any of those things.

Worira
2007-12-20, 10:49 PM
Therefore, we should also ban most modern fantasy literature and nearly all fantasy films. These can be said to portray fantasy in a bad light. Anyone who has seen the DnD movie or read some of the poor quality fantasy out there can agree with me.

The argument is invalid because, guess what? Bad/good light portrayal and artistic depth are subjective qualities dependent almost entirely upon the user. Quite honestly, people can draw subtext and deep, significant meaning from what amounts to pure smut, and fail to grasp the most insightful and cunning point no matter how obvious, apparent, and universal it appears.

And even if it is pointed out tot hem, not everyone finds subtext and artistic depth worthwhile qualities. Some find them pretentious wastes of time, and as alienating as any other influence that supposedly drives people off.

Every viewer of media brings with him his own context, personal tastes, and experiences which flavor his viewing. Anime does not induce these; many of these are inborn qualities decided arbitrarily or instinctively in a manner that cannot be consciously replicated. For the thousands the worship Tolkien, for example, as god, there are thousands who hate his works. Should we ban Tolkien because people who don't like Tolkien's vision are driven away by the perception that all fantasy is Tolkien based in nature? Hm?

At the end of the day, all that can be said is that any anime influence, if real, only diversifies the fantasy genre. Thus, the only reason for keeping it out is for elitist and purist reasons. Ascribing to this viewpoint is equivalent to saying "there is only one true fantasy." It's close-minded and bigoted in the extreme.

Quite frankly, all you are arguing for is your vision for the fantasy genre to reign supreme. You are arguing against freedom of speech. You are saying that these people, who like this hypothetical anime influence, are wrong and don't deserve to have their style of fantasy exist.

I cannot see how any thinking man who holds creativity and artistic expression dear can advocate this. And before you say, "there is no artistic expression or creativity to anime" once more consider that these qualities may not only be dependent on the beholder, but that your own favored brand is guilty of the same sin, and that even hedonistic and "shallow" material can display surprising profoundness and depth. Once could even argue that the quality of being for purely entertainment purposes infuses it with a depth and worthwhileness unpredictably in a work that deliberately sets out to be so. The pretentiousness of an academic is no different from the prejudice of the racist or the exclusiveness of children.


Totally. (http://songsforteaching.com/tomchapin/greatbigwords.htm) Also, random words to get the number up to ten.

bugsysservant
2007-12-20, 11:37 PM
Therefore, we should also ban most modern fantasy literature and nearly all fantasy films. These can be said to portray fantasy in a bad light. Anyone who has seen the DnD movie or read some of the poor quality fantasy out there can agree with me.

The argument is invalid because, guess what? Bad/good light portrayal and artistic depth are subjective qualities dependent almost entirely upon the user. Quite honestly, people can draw subtext and deep, significant meaning from what amounts to pure smut, and fail to grasp the most insightful and cunning point no matter how obvious, apparent, and universal it appears.

And even if it is pointed out tot hem, not everyone finds subtext and artistic depth worthwhile qualities. Some find them pretentious wastes of time, and as alienating as any other influence that supposedly drives people off.

Every viewer of media brings with him his own context, personal tastes, and experiences which flavor his viewing. Anime does not induce these; many of these are inborn qualities decided arbitrarily or instinctively in a manner that cannot be consciously replicated. For the thousands the worship Tolkien, for example, as god, there are thousands who hate his works. Should we ban Tolkien because people who don't like Tolkien's vision are driven away by the perception that all fantasy is Tolkien based in nature? Hm?

At the end of the day, all that can be said is that any anime influence, if real, only diversifies the fantasy genre. Thus, the only reason for keeping it out is for elitist and purist reasons. Ascribing to this viewpoint is equivalent to saying "there is only one true fantasy." It's close-minded and bigoted in the extreme.

Quite frankly, all you are arguing for is your vision for the fantasy genre to reign supreme. You are arguing against freedom of speech. You are saying that these people, who like this hypothetical anime influence, are wrong and don't deserve to have their style of fantasy exist.

I cannot see how any thinking man who holds creativity and artistic expression dear can advocate this. And before you say, "there is no artistic expression or creativity to anime" once more consider that these qualities may not only be dependent on the beholder, but that your own favored brand is guilty of the same sin, and that even hedonistic and "shallow" material can display surprising profoundness and depth. Once could even argue that the quality of being for purely entertainment purposes infuses it with a depth and worthwhileness unpredictably in a work that deliberately sets out to be so. The pretentiousness of an academic is no different from the prejudice of the racist or the exclusiveness of children.

Marginally long post, spoilered for your pleasure:
Mmm, nothing like the smell of burning strawmen...

Seriously, I find your attitude to be as pretentious as those you rant about. D&D began as a game very much seated in Tolkien, where as soon as characters reached a moderate level of power- "name level"- it was standard practice to retire them. This stems, in part, from the very low power setting of Tolkien. As years and versions have progressed, Dungeons and Dragons has substantially changed, and one of its major influences is Anime.

Look at 3.x. Either you houserule, you avoid certain choices, or virtaully all relatively balanced melee characters are drawn from ToB. While I'm not arguing that ToB is totally Anime and thus evil and unbalanced, etc., etc., etc., it does draw much of its fluff from anime. Running so fast the ground catches fire wouldn't surprise me in a dozen different anime shows, but if it were to appear in classical fantasy, say LoTR, I would be shocked. Because of D&D's transition to anime, I can either alter the fluff/crunch (change the inherent system), accept that my character is anime based and try to make the best of it, or play a character that I really want and accept that it will be suboptimal.

And it is precisely this limiting influence which has angered so many people. Those who dislike anime can look at the style and then look in dismay as their cherished systems are narrowed and twisted by exposure to something they hate. Those who love anime can look on as systems which previously didn't support their likes have better capability to support the characters they enjoy playing.

Likewise a diehard Monet fan can say "all artists should be more like Monet. The scope of his work was so broad that it would diversify art as a whole." No it wouldn't. Whether or not you like anime, you must admit that it restricts play in D&D for those who don't enjoy it. Saying that allowing anime to influence D&D has only broadened its scope and potential reveals nothing more than your own prejudices about anime and your ability to diferentiate between the non-anime portions of D&D, not to mention your own pretensions concerning the amount of material/flavor anime can yield. Seriously, this is such a far cry from "the dumbest argument out there" that it borders on the opposite extreme.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 11:41 PM
Well said, bugsys (the indirect insult directed towards me notwithstanding :smallamused:)

bugsysservant
2007-12-20, 11:46 PM
Well said, bugsys (the indirect insult directed towards me notwithstanding :smallamused:)

:smallfrown: I honestly didn't mean to insult you there, but between the length of my post, and the one I was quoting, I kind of lost track of what you had originally said. Sorry about that.

Hallavast
2007-12-20, 11:50 PM
:smallfrown: I honestly didn't mean to insult you there, but between the length of my post, and the one I was quoting, I kind of lost track of what you had originally said. Sorry about that.

You cannot apoligize. I have already forgiven you. :smallwink:

Ralfarius
2007-12-20, 11:57 PM
Sorry that you're tired of it. Doesn't make it any less true, though. :smallcool:
To this well thought "Yuh huh!" response, I must rebut with a profound "Nuh uh!"

horseboy
2007-12-21, 12:25 AM
That may be true, but you can't deny that anime is becoming more and more mainstream. Therefore anime is beginning to influence more and more things in the realms of art, fantasy, and roleplaying games in general. This isn't a bad thing if you like anime. Unfortunately, I don't share the enthusiasm.

My personal preferences have no bearing on this little truth. And neither does the fact that you're tired of it being pointed out to you.
And so are Reality shows. Reality shows have had about as much impact on D&D as anime. Aka: It hasn't unless you want to go looking for it. Really, D&D has enough problems, no point in putting more that aren't even there.

Hallavast
2007-12-21, 01:22 AM
And so are Reality shows. Reality shows have had about as much impact on D&D as anime. Aka: It hasn't unless you want to go looking for it. Really, D&D has enough problems, no point in putting more that aren't even there.

I'm not putting problems in anything. Anime has a huge influence in fantasy roleplaying games. I find that disgusting. It's that simple.

Reality shows have no where near the amount of influence that anime holds. Also, I find most reality shows disgusting, but they really have nothing to do with fantasy roleplaying, so I don't really care. If you don't believe anime has any sway over fantasy roleplaying, pick up a DnD 3.5 splatbook at random.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-12-21, 01:42 AM
Getting away a little from Anime (which I don't really have an opinion on one way or the other), the dumbest arguments I've heard involving gaming almost exclusively have to do with alignment. One of the reasons I really hate the alignment system.

The best one I here is that using poisons is evil. So, a paladin wanting to get past a couple of guards is completely forbidden from firing darts that would incapacitate said guards, because that would be evil. This leaves him little choice but to go in and cut their heads off in a painful but still Lawful Good manner. :smallconfused:

Randalor
2007-12-21, 01:45 AM
Just going to throw my 2 cents in on the whole "Anime vs. D&D" argument. Does anime influence D&D now? Certainly. But on the same note, D&D *and other pen-and-paper RPGs by extension* have influenced anime to a large *if not larger* degree as well. A large amount of fantasy anime now tends to veer towards steriotypical roles that D&D made popular *Spellcaster must always have at least one spellbook, clerics/priests are always healers, except when pure evil, fighters are about as smart and literate as barbarians, ect*

And just a quick side question, I picked up the Slayers D20 RPG book... is it wrong that I think it has a better magic system than the current D&D one? *I'm being honest with that question. It's an interesting system that actually encourages dipping into other classes*

horseboy
2007-12-21, 01:49 AM
I'm not putting problems in anything. Anime has a huge influence in fantasy roleplaying games. I find that disgusting. It's that simple.

Reality shows have no where near the amount of influence that anime holds. Also, I find most reality shows disgusting, but they really have nothing to do with fantasy roleplaying, so I don't really care.Oh no? Well, since everyone on reality tv is an incompetent twit and no one who isn't a player character has to be of an less capable, lower level than the PC's, making them incompetent twits, then clearly D&D has been influenced by reality tv. This can not stand! Really, makes about as much sense.


If you don't believe anime has any sway over fantasy roleplaying, pick up a DnD 3.5 splatbook at random.
Which one has the giant robots in it?
The only two commonly known anime fantasy series are based off of D&D. Mayhaps you're seeing something reflected in the two anime series you don't like about D&D are choosing to not see the self sustaining loop.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-21, 02:12 AM
Escaflowne isn't based on D&D. Of course, Escaflowne has giant robots mixed in with its fantasy.

Me, I'm not touching this argument in a serious manner, because it is among the Dumbest Arguments I've Heard. Not because neither side has valid points, but because nobody's going to convince anybody of anything.

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 02:13 AM
But the medium of anime provides a distinction within the genre. For example, some of the character interactions in an anime would be nonsensical in a D&D setting. Also, a medium that portrays a genre in a bad light (anime does this to fantasy) is bad for the genre. It's a matter of personal tastes, sure, but the lack of artistic depth in anime turns people off to fantasy in general. The argument is valid.

As a point of curiosity, what are you using "anime" to mean here? I mean, you say "some of the character interactions in an anime would be nonsensical in a D&D setting", which sounds odd to me, because some of the character interactions from American TV would also be fairly weird in a D&D setting if you removed them from their own context and setting. What sort of "character interactions" do you have in mind? I'm also wondering what anime specifically you mean when you say "anime portrays fantasy in a bad light".

Really what I'm wondering is, what shows are you talking about here?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-21, 02:32 AM
Look, I've already spammed one "D&D is becoming Anime" thread to death this week. I'd really rather not have to go through all that effort again. Let's keep this a general-use thread.

Plus, I might have to look at Tengu's new avatar some more if it attracts his attention (brr).

Khanderas
2007-12-21, 02:42 AM
Seriously, I find your attitude to be as pretentious as those you rant about. D&D began as a game very much seated in Tolkien, where as soon as characters reached a moderate level of power- "name level"- it was standard practice to retire them. This stems, in part, from the very low power setting of Tolkien. As years and versions have progressed, Dungeons and Dragons has substantially changed, and one of its major influences is Anime.
I think it has much more to do with WOTC aiming for a younger wider customerbase. To appeal to a new audience and perhaps to get the old crowd switch to a newer edition, power is upped.
Simplified rules, faster combat, cooler items => Kids go "oh yeah." *cha-ching*
More PC power, easier PC power => veterans go "Oh improvment..." *cha-ching*

:smallwink:


That may be true, but you can't deny that anime is becoming more and more mainstream. Therefore anime is beginning to influence more and more things in the realms of art, fantasy, and roleplaying games in general. This isn't a bad thing if you like anime. Unfortunately, I don't share the enthusiasm.

My personal preferences have no bearing on this little truth. And neither does the fact that you're tired of it being pointed out to you.
Good point, but don't forget its a two way street. As something becomes more mainstream, it influences and gets influenced to a higher degree.

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 02:46 AM
Look, I've already spammed one "D&D is becoming Anime" thread to death this week. I'd really rather not have to go through all that effort again. Let's keep this a general-use thread.

All right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67281). Hallavast, I invite you to respond to my question in that thread instead.


Plus, I might have to look at Tengu's new avatar some more if it attracts his attention (brr).

It's actually grown on me. This may not be a good sign.

Soniku
2007-12-21, 07:02 AM
And just a quick side question, I picked up the Slayers D20 RPG book... is it wrong that I think it has a better magic system than the current D&D one? *I'm being honest with that question. It's an interesting system that actually encourages dipping into other classes*

Answer: No. I love that system, and despite being a big fan of the classic D&D spellcasting system I can't help but like the slayers system more. Although, on a semi-related sidenote...

With all this "Anime is influencing D&D!" did you know that Slayers was originally a series of short stories in the Japanese Dragon magazine? There's an anime that was influenced by D&D :smalltongue:

Randalor
2007-12-21, 10:25 AM
With all this "Anime is influencing D&D!" did you know that Slayers was originally a series of short stories in the Japanese Dragon magazine? There's an anime that was influenced by D&D :smalltongue:


Not so sure about the short-stories-in-Dragon bit, but I do know the novels are somehow even better than the anime *Look! Non-damage uses for magic!*

hamishspence
2007-12-21, 11:29 AM
Anime and D&D associations: most dramatic example I have seen was Shadow Over Mystra arcade game (as in, can only play it in an arcade on an arcade machine). OLD d&d as in Dwarf and elf being Classes, elf having own spell list.

Specifically, each picture of a character was unmistakably drawn in anime style.

Now I didn't play the game, but I saw the constantly playing demo right through: chimera, huge blue demon, evil knights riding green dragons, rogues backstabbing by jumping on enemy's back and jabbing, cleric whirdwinding with flail, turning and so destroying minor undead, Shadow Elves disappearing and reappearing real close, meteor swarm, cloudkill, and, you know what?

it looked rather cool. Could be because of old graphics: pixelated, so they could not look like the anime art.

Now I personally hate anime. Not for style or things it shows, but for one reason only.

It is impossible to lip read ANYONE in anime cartoons. Most modern cartoons are lip-readable, but not anime. So, irritating.

I have not seen much anime (Yu-gi-oh plot looked...ok. Pokemon seemed just annoying)

as a big GW fan, I can live with the tau. GW steers well clear of true anime, even on covers of books. Inside is black and white art, which completely lacks the anime style.

so, be clear what parts of anime you object to. For me, it is the art style.

DeathQuaker
2007-12-21, 12:26 PM
It is impossible to lip read ANYONE in anime cartoons. Most modern cartoons are lip-readable, but not anime. So, irritating.

First, most anime lip flaps are designed to match spoken Japanese, not English. Japanese is spoken quickly and not as emphatic as English (a lot of dropped sounds, e.g. in "desu" the "u" is barely mouthed/voiced), so unless you're fluent in Japanese, it would be hard to pick up.

Second, I would imagine that where lip flaps in anime are less defined, it's probably for the ease of dubbing into other languages. (E.g., it looks odd in the 2nd episode of the Tenchi OVA if you are watching the dub and you hear Ryoko say "Goooood Moooorning," when her lips are very clearly mouthing "O-ha-yo.")


I have not seen much anime (Yu-gi-oh plot looked...ok. Pokemon seemed just annoying)

Then it sounds like what you actually don't like in terms of art style (and plot) is children's anime.

These shows aren't very well animated in terms of things like good facial expressions. It's not a good idea to condemn an entire medium based on what you've seen in a couple of cheaply made kids' shows. Try some darker anime intended for teens and adults rather than children, and you'll see stuff like facial details, facial expressions, and lip flap are a lot more defined.

Sorry, veering OT but wanted to point this out.

Brauron
2007-12-21, 02:53 PM
Dumbest argument I've ever heard:

"Elves don't have genders. There are no male and female elves. The only gender of elf is 'elf'"

The person trying to argue this point used :vaarsuvius: as "proof."

She and the DM argued this throughout the entire campaign.

littlechicory
2007-12-21, 04:00 PM
*half-hour discussion of the position of a dragon with regards to an airship*

DM: Okay, so the dragon attacks the airship. Blah blah, everybody roll Reflex saves for the breath weapon, followed by Reflex saves to stay on board.

Everyone: *rolls saves*

DM: Okay, now the dragon's rider is going to make an attack-

C: Ride check.

DM: What?!

C: The dragon's flying around, swinging its head, and spitting fire, not to mention it's an intelligent creature... the Ride check DC has got to be about 50 for something like that.

DM: WTF NO. He doesn't have to make a Ride check!

H: Yes, he does. C is right.

littlechicory: You keep forcing us to make Ride checks to stay on a trotting horse, and you're going to exempt someone riding a fighting dragon?!

DM: OMG HE DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE THE CHECK! IT'S PART OF THE ENCOUNTER!

N: ... he doesn't have any ranks in Ride, does he?

DM: SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!

lisiecki
2007-12-21, 04:48 PM
Anime and D&D associations: most dramatic example I have seen was Shadow Over Mystra arcade game (as in, can only play it in an arcade on an arcade machine). OLD d&d as in Dwarf and elf being Classes, elf having own spell list.

Specifically, each picture of a character was unmistakably drawn in anime style.



Ya but thats 10 years ago, that means that the influce has been had

also

Dwarf and eld being classes
huh?
how is that anime?

Malnourished
2007-12-22, 09:50 AM
Dwarf and eld being classes
huh?
how is that anime?

It's not, but it was old-style D&D. The basic system, anyway. In Advanced D&D (first edition) they were races, but then there were limits on what classes different races could be.

PlatinumJester
2007-12-22, 12:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZczLuoJoU

search through the comments here, its there somehwere

For those who can't be asked to look through all of the comments


"You're incorrect. Dungeons and Dragons is just a poor rip off of the World of Warcraft Role Playing game, which was based on World of Warcraft. >=O Gary Gygax is a goddamn thief."

by SinfulFluffy

kamikasei
2007-12-22, 12:30 PM
"You're incorrect. Dungeons and Dragons is just a poor rip off of the World of Warcraft Role Playing game, which was based on World of Warcraft. >=O Gary Gygax is a goddamn thief."

That's clearly sarcasm.

Mikeavelli
2007-12-22, 12:40 PM
Well isn't it Ironic.... One of the dumbest arguements in Gaming history going on, quite seriously, inside a thread about the dumbest arguements you've ever heard!

Or ya'all are intentionally subverting the thread in a bizarrely coordinated attempt at sarcasm, in which case the performance is brilliant.

*Applaudes*

Either way it's played out.

Now then, another of the dumbest arguements I've ever heard, once again as a Player with a relatively new DM (Not the same one).

DM: "You get hit by a fireball."

"Where'd it come from?!"

"I look around!"

"(Similar statements from the rest of the party)"

DM: "You don't see anything in the room."

All: "WTF?"

DM: "And you get hit by another fireball!"

All: "No seriously, where the heck is all this coming from?"

DM: "Nobody thought to look Up! There's a wizard flying above you casting spells."

All: *Throwing dice at the DM*

This was 2nd edition, before the concept of Spot checks came about, in case anyone was wondering.

Hallavast
2007-12-22, 12:45 PM
Well isn't it Ironic.... One of the dumbest arguements in Gaming history going on, quite seriously, inside a thread about the dumbest arguements you've ever heard!

Or ya'all are intentionally subverting the thread in a bizarrely coordinated attempt at sarcasm, in which case the performance is brilliant.

*Applaudes*



*Takes a bow*

Khosan
2007-12-22, 01:00 PM
For those who can't be asked to look through all of the comments


"You're incorrect. Dungeons and Dragons is just a poor rip off of the World of Warcraft Role Playing game, which was based on World of Warcraft. >=O Gary Gygax is a goddamn thief."

by SinfulFluffy

They'd have to be an XKCD reader. It's the only way I can imagine someone making that claim.

horseboy
2007-12-22, 02:07 PM
*Takes a bow*

Yes, yes, since Kurald and Giacomo didn't deliver, someone was going to have to. :smallamused: :smallwink:

lisiecki
2007-12-22, 02:50 PM
Sorry that you're tired of it. Doesn't make it any less true, though. :smallcool:

How is it true exactly?

At no point to do they save the world with the power of song.
There are no hot shot, devil may care older poilets looking to go out in a blaze of glory.
No brash new comers who get assigned to said older 'mech jock and it turns out they were the newbies hero.
The mecha is never designed by the polites father.
the mecha donst combine in to a super mecha

Could you, perhaps, explain how they are anime influenced

What i dont get is how are the Tau more anime then they are BattleTech or Starship Troopers?

horseboy
2007-12-22, 02:56 PM
What i don't get is how are the Tau more anime then they are BattleTech or Starship Troopers?
I don't know either. But you go to GW's forums they'll still carry on about the commie anime army.

lisiecki
2007-12-22, 03:06 PM
Eh, i stoped posting at warseer when i realised i was spending hours a night in debates, where i was saying "Look at page XX, the question has a clear answer"
and people told me i was wrong.

This happend mostly because of
"Horus totally killed the Primarch of Legion XI while he was still in the test tube"
and me saying
"No, C:CSM says that all 20 primarchs were found, and all 20 lead there legions on the great crusade"

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-22, 03:57 PM
How did this thread manage to get into the "D&D is turning into anime!" argument?




Anyway, the dumbest argument I have heard was with a wizard who said they were underpowered.

Ulrichomega
2007-12-22, 11:23 PM
At level one they are.

Anyway, the dumbest arguement that I have ever heard in a game (Victoriana, not DnD) is that a character should take falling damage from a 40 ft fall because that character was landing on another.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-22, 11:54 PM
About the "D&D is copying WoW" comment: My friend said that some guy told him that the Fantastic Four were a rip-off of The Incredibles. Said person probably saw only the movies, I guess. :smallamused:

Balkash
2007-12-22, 11:56 PM
I can bet i've been ninja'd on this, but

ANY OPINION THREAD ON HERE,

because they all immediately go to mud... or flame war... whatever...

Collin152
2007-12-23, 01:11 AM
Man, this Anime-hatred-argumenting is like the plague; at first its quarantied, so you know where to avoid it, but then it starts spreading! It's seeping into our homes!


By the might of the gods of Asgard, I condemn the word Anime forthwith! Now somebody get me a hammer!

Irreverent Fool
2007-12-23, 01:59 AM
I agree wholeheartedly.

Any Chaotic alignment for that matter, people use it as an excuse to be raving jerks.

Not all of us do! I mean... who needs an excuse to be a raving jerk?

Stupidest argument that I've heard in D&D is probably that a character should be able to pull a potion from his belt and drink it as a move action without provoking any attacks of opportunity because he still had a second hand to fend off his opponents. TRY DRINKING A BOTTLE OF SOMETHING WHILE TRYING TO AVOID BEING STABBED!!

Of course, this is the same guy who would frequently have whatever feat he happened to need at the time written on his character sheet...

EDIT: Any and all arguments conducted over internet forums for reasons listed above.

Arguing on the internet, special olympics, etc.

Hallavast
2007-12-23, 03:29 AM
How is it true exactly?

At no point to do they save the world with the power of song.
There are no hot shot, devil may care older poilets looking to go out in a blaze of glory.
No brash new comers who get assigned to said older 'mech jock and it turns out they were the newbies hero.
The mecha is never designed by the polites father.
the mecha donst combine in to a super mecha


Eh? I certainly do not have any idea what you're talking about. I was saying that the general trend was true. Not this particular example. My bad.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-23, 06:23 AM
How is it true exactly?

At no point to do they save the world with the power of song.
Yes they do! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) :smallbiggrin:

Morty
2007-12-23, 10:28 AM
I've once seen a guy argue that Diablo 2 is better than Baldur's Gate 2. It wouldn't be particulary stupid if said guy didn't try to support his opinion by claiming that D2 is better than BG2 because there are more websites about it, and on the forum the discussion's been taking place on there are more posts about Diablo than BG.

lisiecki
2007-12-23, 10:55 AM
Ah,
In your reply "that dosnt make it less true"
I thought you were talking about the Tau




Eh? I certainly do not have any idea what you're talking about. I was saying that the general trend was true. Not this particular example. My bad.

BloodyAngel
2007-12-23, 12:49 PM
Ok... I shall join in on this madness only once.

D&D is turning into anime. Leaving out the fact that anime is a specific type of animated show from japan that covers ALL genres. (It's absurd to compare shows like Monster and Grave of Fireflies to Slayer or Naruto) D&D is most certainly influenced by what is becoming more and more popular. WOTC is a company that wants to make money... first and foremost. Anime is popular, and attracts a lot of fans. My opinion of said fans not-withstanding... it was a business choice. Anime certainly influences D&D, just as D&D influences anime... or MMO's influence them both, and vice versa... for we are all connected in the great circle of life, Simba. The fantasy genre in general is influenced at least as strongly from Japanese RPG's as it has from stories like LOtR and the Arthurian legends. Does anyone here consider the first Final Fantasy game too anime? It was clearly made in japan. I'm not an anime fan. I've seen all of one anime series that I would consider watching if i was bedridden with nothing better to do. I think most of them are crap. That doesn't mean I blame anime for what is happening to D&D.

I think the main reason for this debate is that people dislike anime FANDOM. As someone who has developed no less than 14 plans to unleash a fanboy and fangirl killing virus upon the world, I would be inclined to agree. I get angry when my immersion into my fantasy world is filled with people trying to mimic Naruto (who may well be the most annoying character in existance), but I am also angered at the way the internet has ruined these things as well. The route D&D is going is hardly because of anime in it's entirety. Anyone who liked the crazy fighting in the first matrix, or in kill bill is also to blame. Anyone who has spent a night online in WoW level grinding and hunting "phat lewts" is to blame. Anyone who enjoyed 300, Pirates, or Beowulf is to blame. Legolas fans are to blame. Why? Because these all prove the popularity of the same type of thing. Over the top action scenes.

If you want gritty, brutal, realistic fighting in a dirty, dark, low magic setting... Make your game that way. Look into the Warhammer fantasy RPG. Warhammer has intentionally AVOIDED the anime influence in fantasy... which is why there is still no army book for "Great Cathay ". Or get back into 2nd ed D&D... or 1st! There are still plenty of games out there for your point of view, and plenty of people who want to play in a game like that, just like you do. D&D is going to be the way it will be, and it is impossible to please every fan. If you don't like the direction it's going... don't get it. Complaining up and down about it won't change a thing. If you really want someone to blame... we can only blame ourselves for making popular the kind of thing that the game is trying to emulate. At least in tabletop RPG's you have the freedom to alter the rules of the game as you see fit. Use them... and stop wasting all your time complaining.

/rant end

Fluff
2007-12-24, 10:53 AM
The barbarian should be using a two-handed weapon. If the +2 to strength raises his modifier from an odd to an even number, then he should get it, because it will boost his damage by 2, instead of 1.

Otherwise, the monk should get it, because he's worthless.

When will adding 2 to an odd number make it even? Ever?

daggaz
2007-12-24, 11:08 AM
When will adding 2 to an odd number make it even? Ever?

That happens all the time, for very large values of 2.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-24, 12:44 PM
He's talking about the modifier, which is the ((Score - 10) * 1/2) number you use for figuring out your bonus on rolls. Adding two to the score will only add one to the modifier, thus making the modifier odd or even.

The reason the Barbarian wants an even number, by the way, is that he's using a two-handed weapon, which gets 1.5 * Modifier bonus damage, rounded down. Thus, he'd get a greater increase in bonus damage from going to an even modifier than he would going to an odd, due to roundoff.

Tibor
2007-12-25, 01:27 AM
Three words.

Wizard vs. Fighter

Quietus
2007-12-25, 06:28 AM
When will adding 2 to an odd number make it even? Ever?

When you're going from a 16 strength to an 18. The modifier was 3, now it's 4. Gone from 4 bonus damage with your greatsword to 6.

Dhavaer
2007-12-25, 07:07 AM
A fellow player once argued that his female chaotic neutral halfling rogue was in fact entirely justified to act CE. Because you see, CN females act the same as CE males and it is nothing less than good roleplay to attack teammates on that premise.

Why must you remind me of this? I'd almost erased it from my memory.

Cuddly
2007-12-25, 07:13 AM
Which one has the giant robots in it?

Eberron.


stufftextmorestuff

horseboy
2007-12-25, 08:32 PM
Eberron.

Nah, those are just Obsidimen rip offs. I mean robots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qVM63nq5g0).

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 12:40 AM
Well another EE story


A new player came to my group, now he was a young lad (13 years old to my 16) who claimed to be a D&D enthusiastic seemed to know the game and eager to play. So i set up a small game to see how he played, along with my three best players (the ones who don't play my villians) who i will name Wizard, Paladin, and rouge (yes i know, i liked to deliberately misspell things, my name should show that), the wizard and rouge are the same dudes from earlier examples
Now we start making his character, he briefly flicks through the books

Noobie- Hey, could i be a ninja?
Me- Sure, though they aren't all asian based just to let you know and i've done some modifications, but sure
Noobie- Alright, i want to be a character
Me- Alright, give me the details of his personify and what he looks like
Noobie- Well, he is CG,
Wizard- Damn
Noobie- he weres a ninja hand band
Rouge- Yeah, cause nothing says stealthy like a shiny piece of metal on your head
Paladin- Shut it guys, his character
Noobie- He is meduim height, with sandy blond hair that is never brushed, with whisker like lines on his face that our brought about by a birth make, he is very muscled
Wizard- Who isn't in this world i ask
Paladin- Whiskers, wait a sec
Noobie- a master of mariel arts but you wouldn't tell by his personality as he is rather silly. He wears an orange jump suit with books. Personality wise he
Me- orange jumpsuit, what?
Noobie- He is an eager, enthusiastic, loving, quick tempered but a good person. He often comes off as stupid and foolish, but he is a good person who belives greatly in the power of friendship and love and always wins because of his strong heart
Me- Wait did you just steal teh charater of Naurto?
Noobie- I only based it slightly off of him, he is awsome
Me- Come on, he is an awful character annoying as hell. if you at least attempted to make an orginal character based off a decent character like Drizzt then i would except it but come on
Noobie- But, Naurto is amazing. Dude, he is so cool, how could you not like Naurto
Me- I could inject suger into my cousin, dress him in an orange jumpsuit, and tell him he is a ninja and watching that would be more amusing than that show, on account of it being funny.
Noobie- Hey, you can't insult Naurto, i won't allow it, i can play naurto if i want
Me (snaps)- Ok kid, do you know who Rasputin was?
Noobie- Wasn't he in blood plus?
Me- The real dude, though that show isn't bad? well, he was an extremly strange but powerful man in russia pior to the revolution. Now one day he went to a party, were he was first poisioned twiced, then shot, strangled, beaten, stabbed, but in a bag and thrown into a freezing cold russian water, and it still took him two days to die. Now if you ever, ever ever tell try to pull a stunt like that again i will make you beg that it was use who acted as Rasputin's body double. I will make Bricktop from Snatch and all the villians from Layer Cake/Two smoking barrels/pulp fiction look like the priest from Rome Open city. Zolf J. Kimblee's methods of torture compared to mine will be like Comparing the Nazi cruelty from LIfe is beautiful to Scinder's List. You feel the pain of every single Persian harmed in 300 and all the Bordricts from Black Adder. All of Dracula/Alucard and the Bride's methods of pain will pale compared to mine. Olando's Blom's acting will inflect less pain upon you than i shall. If you even live your will wind up a broken human being like Saskue
So don't ever try to play Nauroto again.
paladin- bit much eh?
Noobie- Fine, i'll play a Spartian, like from 300
Me- I've lost the will to live

horseboy
2007-12-26, 02:11 AM
*Snip*
Lol! "Wasn't he on Blood+?" That's a great one.

Chronicled
2007-12-26, 02:27 AM
if you at least attempted to make an orginal character based off a decent character like Drizzt then i would except it but come on

Just when you've got me sympathizing with you, I read this line. :smallyuk:

Fun read regardless.

Wordmiser
2007-12-26, 02:35 AM
I will make Bricktop from Snatch and all the villians from Layer Cake/Two smoking barrels/pulp fiction look like the priest from Rome Open city. Zolf J. Kimblee's methods of torture compared to mine will be like Comparing the Nazi cruelty from LIfe is beautiful to Scinder's List. You feel the pain of every single Persian harmed in 300 and all the Bordricts from Black Adder. All of Dracula/Alucard and the Bride's methods of pain will pale compared to mine. Olando's Blom's acting will inflect less pain upon you than i shall. If you even live your will wind up a broken human being like Saskue
So don't ever try to play Nauroto again.Man, my nerd-fu is waning. I'm 2 for 13 in nerd-reference-recognition.

I'll just nod and smile blankly...

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 10:16 AM
Just when you've got me sympathizing with you, I read this line. :smallyuk:

Fun read regardless.

Meh, Drizzt isn't all that bad accully, i can certainly understand the concept and i don't mind it much

Naurto on the other hand


And yes, Blood plus is replacing the history channel it seems


As for nerdfu, how did you lose your magic touch?
from,
'EE

daggaz
2007-12-26, 10:17 AM
Just when you've got me sympathizing with you, I read this line. :smallyuk:

Fun read regardless.

Laugh, that line made me laugh out loud as well. Oh the irony of it all.

Though in my games, I dont really care all too much what kind of character somebody builds, as long as it isnt broken or terribly underpowered. If they wanna be like drizzt, sure why not. I draw the line at stupid names, tho. Having put a lot of effort into creating my world, I always hope the players will at least try to mirror it as well.

Me: Ok, so you are a dwarf cleric? Which god and which domains?
Cleric: Silverbeard, and Im taking war and travel (I allowed more freedom in domains this time around).
Me: Ok, sounds fine. Healer and melee, is it? Not bad... whats your name?
Cleric: Hea Lor.
Me: ...
Cleric: What? It's not like his name matters...
Me: Ok. Then call me DM Youaregoingtodieinthissession.
Cleric: ... ok, call me Thorgrim.

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 11:04 AM
Laugh, that line made me laugh out loud as well. Oh the irony of it all.


eh?
from,
EE

horseboy
2007-12-26, 11:19 AM
Laugh, that line made me laugh out loud as well. Oh the irony of it all.

Though in my games, I dont really care all too much what kind of character somebody builds, as long as it isnt broken or terribly underpowered. If they wanna be like drizzt, sure why not. I draw the line at stupid names, tho. Having put a lot of effort into creating my world, I always hope the players will at least try to mirror it as well.

Me: Ok, so you are a dwarf cleric? Which god and which domains?
Cleric: Silverbeard, and Im taking war and travel (I allowed more freedom in domains this time around).
Me: Ok, sounds fine. Healer and melee, is it? Not bad... whats your name?
Cleric: Hea Lor.
Me: ...
Cleric: What? It's not like his name matters...
Me: Ok. Then call me DM Youaregoingtodieinthissession.
Cleric: ... ok, call me Thorgrim.

So very true. It's hard to take a campaign seriously when everybody is named, Fruity Pebbles, Golden Crisp, Raisin Bran and Grape Nuts. (true story, btw) Works well for TFFV, not so well when you want to do something serious.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-26, 11:31 AM
Meh, Drizzt isn't all that bad accully, i can certainly understand the concept and i don't mind it much

Naurto on the other hand


And yes, Blood plus is replacing the history channel it seems


As for nerdfu, how did you lose your magic touch?
from,
'EE

Naruto isn't that bad either, they just hand him the "complete idiot ball" far too often, though I wonder why anyone would want to walk around in an orange jumpsuit.
I don't understand why people who rip-off character always take the physical characters, isn't the character of the character what makes him cool/awesome/badass?

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 11:32 AM
So very true. It's hard to take a campaign seriously when everybody is named, Fruity Pebbles, Golden Crisp, Raisin Bran and Grape Nuts. (true story, btw) Works well for TFFV, not so well when you want to do something serious.

sounds like you had some interesting games

Naruto isn't that bad either, they just hand him the "complete idiot ball" far too often, though I wonder why anyone would want to walk around in an orange jumpsuit.
hasn't naruto ever not had the idiot ball? In fact, i think they hand him the intellegence ball every so often to advanced the plot
And yeah, an orange jumpsuit?

from,
EE

JMobius
2007-12-26, 11:35 AM
I once spent about twenty minutes arguing with one of my players, whose PC was an unschooled, uneducated hobo, why that because he'd saw an explosion at one point in his life that does not mean he is an expert in the care, handling, and application of all explosive materials.

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 01:11 PM
I once spent about twenty minutes arguing with one of my players, whose PC was an unschooled, uneducated hobo, why that because he'd saw an explosion at one point in his life that does not mean he is an expert in the care, handling, and application of all explosive materials.

....?


How does that even makes sense?

I saw a gun fired once doesn't make me a good shot
from,
EE

JMobius
2007-12-26, 02:00 PM
He argued it made sense because he had 20 INT (was HERO system, but the value has about the same 'real world' value as it does in D20).

He was a problematic player in general, though. He was a really really abusive metagamer and munchkin. Thats just the worst argument we had; there was quite a bit of other nonsense to be had. :P

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 02:09 PM
He argued it made sense because he had 20 INT (was HERO system, but the value has about the same 'real world' value as it does in D20).

He was a problematic player in general, though. He was a really really abusive metagamer and munchkin. Thats just the worst argument we had; there was quite a bit of other nonsense to be had. :P

sounds like it, but even a genuis (like myself:smallwink: ) can't instently understand something from seeing it once. Sounds like a jerk
from,
EE

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-26, 02:10 PM
Well, if he had some Taskmaster-esque ability, he could get it. But I guess that was not the case.

JMobius
2007-12-26, 02:13 PM
His powers were a combination of Colossus, Mr. Fantastic, and The Hulk, actually. It was my first run with the system, so I didn't know what sort of balance problems to expect, but using his abilities in concert he could attain an effective 80 strength -- approximately enough to pick up a superfreighter. I can't even begin to list the abuse that resulted from that. :P

EvilElitest
2007-12-26, 05:49 PM
His powers were a combination of Colossus, Mr. Fantastic, and The Hulk, actually. It was my first run with the system, so I didn't know what sort of balance problems to expect, but using his abilities in concert he could attain an effective 80 strength -- approximately enough to pick up a superfreighter. I can't even begin to list the abuse that resulted from that. :P

wow, good thing he wasn't a powergamer



Oh here is one


Often Neutral evil races should all be killed because any member of said race who isn't NE must be mentally defective
from,
EE

kamikasei
2007-12-26, 06:04 PM
Often Neutral evil races should all be killed because any member of said race who isn't NE must be mentally defective

Corollary: mentally defective individuals should all be killed? :smallconfused:

Kurald Galain
2007-12-26, 06:38 PM
Often Neutral evil races should all be killed because any member of said race who isn't NE must be mentally defective

That sounds like Zapp Brannigan... :smallwink:

Wooter
2007-12-26, 07:15 PM
[Scrubbed]
Anyway, the dumbest argument I heard (read, actually) is that memorizing the Monster Manual leads to better storytelling.

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 07:22 PM
[Scrubbed]

[Scrubbed]


Anyway, the dumbest argument I heard (read, actually) is that memorizing the Monster Manual leads to better storytelling.

I don't know, I could make the argument that it helps if you are the DM.

Wooter
2007-12-26, 07:31 PM
Ah, sorry. He (I forgot who) argued that players knowing exactly what their enemies weaknesses are even if their characters have no way of knowing is not only acceptable, but in fact the way the game should be played.

Treguard
2007-12-26, 07:41 PM
Oh good, the thread's gotten funny again.

RandomNPC
2007-12-26, 08:31 PM
^ i was kinda hoping to tos in my 2CP, but the arguement ended.

how about this one, i got it second hand from a friend.

caster: im going to throw a fireball at him
DM ok, what spot are you targeting?
caster: theres only one bad guy, i'm going to hit him and not my friends.
DM: ok, so what spot?
C: its a 20 foot radius, something close to him and not us.
DM: where?

it went on like that with the player fighting the rules lawer about the fireball needing an absolute point of origin, when they had already proven there were no other targets with things like see invisible, and other blast radius spells.

same DM wanted a target spot for a charm monster,(single target anyone?) made him select a corner on the grid for the spell to "start?" from



this also fro the DM who cleared up a question about armor check penalties and dancing shields, but i forgot what he said there.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-26, 09:09 PM
Me: I make a use rope check to tie up the yaun-ti.
DM: How?
Me: What?
DM: How do you tie up the yaun-ti? It's got a snake tail.
Me: Huh. That's gonna be tough. Umm. I've got a strength of eighteen, I'm gonna tie the cord around her torso, then tie her tail around her and tie it to her with the rope.
DM: That wouldn't work, her tail's tapered, she'd just slip it out.

In about twenty minutes of thinking and discussion, I decided not to tie her tail up, and let her lead us out of the place:

Me: So, I gag her.
DM: How?
Me: Not this again...
DM: No, seriously, you just have a rope. How do you make a gag of that?
Me: Tough one...

Twenty minutes later:

Me: I WILL KILL YOU, YOU FAT SACK OF CRAP!
DM: BRING IT ON!
Me: RAAAAA! *Pounces across the table and commences tussling*

Another twenty minutes, both of us wounded (him more than me):

Me: I just tie a knot in it and slip it into her mouth, then wrap a coil around her head to keep it in place.
DM: That works.
Me: Damn right it does.
DM: *roll roll roll* She slips her bonds and tries to flee.
Me: :smallfurious:

We ended up managing to convert her to the cause of good, and she even helped us in the boss fight to get out.

Snadgeros
2007-12-26, 11:03 PM
Me: I WILL KILL YOU, YOU FAT SACK OF CRAP!
DM: BRING IT ON!
Me: RAAAAA! *Pounces across the table and commences tussling*

If you're standing up, it's LARPing.

EvilElitest
2007-12-27, 01:01 AM
I can't really tell what EvilElitest is saying. Should they all be killed, or just the defective ones?

No, that they should all be killed, because a NG goblin must be mentally defective and thus should be killed.

[Scrubbed]
1. [Scrubbed]
2. I'm just southern, not a non English speakers
3. [Scrubbed]
4. [Scrubbed]


Anyway, the dumbest argument I heard (read, actually) is that memorizing the Monster Manual leads to better storytelling.

Wait, for a DM that would be a good thing, or at least not a bad thing


Oh good, the thread's gotten funny again.
I'm back baby
from,
EE

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 01:14 AM
{Scrubbed}

To be fair, your typing is pretty terrible, this post itself even had several misspellings. I also assumed you were a non-native English speaker. Of course I wouldn't assert that you were an idiot without any knowledge of you.

EvilElitest
2007-12-27, 01:28 AM
To be fair, your typing is pretty terrible, this post itself even had several misspellings. I also assumed you were a non-native English speaker. Of course I wouldn't assert that you were an idiot without any knowledge of you.

1. Meh, my spell check broke,
2. For the record, i am a native, just to point that out
3. I'm a prodigy, read my funny posts:smallwink:
(but at least i'm modest about:smallbiggrin: )
from,
EE

Roland St. Jude
2007-12-27, 02:02 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please do not attack, insult, or belittle other posters. That includes calling others trolls or insulting their intelligence.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 05:41 AM
Anyway, the dumbest argument I heard (read, actually) is that memorizing the Monster Manual leads to better storytelling.

In my experience, it leads to worse storytelling, at least assuming you have at least one player who's also read or memorized the MM. If there's one thing I hate it's players starting to cite a monster's statistics when it appears. That's why I don't do MM monsters myself, it's more fun to make up my own stuff.

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 06:22 AM
*half-hour discussion of the position of a dragon with regards to an airship*

DM: Okay, so the dragon attacks the airship. Blah blah, everybody roll Reflex saves for the breath weapon, followed by Reflex saves to stay on board.

Everyone: *rolls saves*

DM: Okay, now the dragon's rider is going to make an attack-

C: Ride check.

DM: What?!

C: The dragon's flying around, swinging its head, and spitting fire, not to mention it's an intelligent creature... the Ride check DC has got to be about 50 for something like that.

DM: WTF NO. He doesn't have to make a Ride check!

H: Yes, he does. C is right.

littlechicory: You keep forcing us to make Ride checks to stay on a trotting horse, and you're going to exempt someone riding a fighting dragon?!

DM: OMG HE DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE THE CHECK! IT'S PART OF THE ENCOUNTER!

N: ... he doesn't have any ranks in Ride, does he?

DM: SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!

Best Story yet. More pls?


At level one they are.


Wizards are not underpowered at level one. Ever heard of Grease? Or Sleep? Or Silent Image? Heck, even Daze can be killer at ECL1.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 06:49 AM
Best Story yet. More pls?



Wizards are not underpowered at level one. Ever heard of Grease? Or Sleep? Or Silent Image? Heck, even Daze can be killer at ECL1.

Grease isn't that powerful with a duration of one round. And you missed the most powerful of all. Color Spray. What? I can knock out everyone? Everyone? Really? The DM can't find anything immune to it? Okay, goodnight.

Ryuuk
2007-12-27, 07:14 AM
On color spray:

1) Undead, at least in my games they always seem to be an important part of a first level adventurer's dungeon crawl.
2) It requires the wizard to be up close and personal, yes it's quite effective, but anything that makes the save could make a very dead wizard just as easily.

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-27, 10:27 AM
Anyway, the dumbest argument I have heard was with a wizard who said they were underpowered.

Just to clarify, the said wizard was level 10 at the time.

EvilElitest
2007-12-27, 10:06 PM
In my experience, it leads to worse storytelling, at least assuming you have at least one player who's also read or memorized the MM. If there's one thing I hate it's players starting to cite a monster's statistics when it appears. That's why I don't do MM monsters myself, it's more fun to make up my own stuff.

I find it varies from how Roleplay heavy the players are. The DM memerizing the MM could be adventages story wise as he can recite its powers very easlily and move combat along quicker, but it certainly isn't always great
from,
EE

Squidmaster
2007-12-28, 01:13 AM
Not really an argument, but one of my players said a drunken master could use a 10x15 foot steel and wood 2 ton table as a tower shield. I was not sure if the rules allowed it, so I just said no. (There were no drunken masters in the group, so the event passed without much argument.)

My players then wanted to bull-rush the same table into a skeleton to kill it:smalleek:
Now I know the horror of the lack of bludgeoning weapons in a group.

Collin152
2007-12-28, 01:33 AM
Oh, the woes of pitifuly small damage reduction. Wasn't there a cleric in the party?

Snadgeros
2007-12-28, 11:48 AM
Not really an argument, but one of my players said a drunken master could use a 10x15 foot steel and wood 2 ton table as a tower shield. I was not sure if the rules allowed it, so I just said no. (There were no drunken masters in the group, so the event passed without much argument.)

My players then wanted to bull-rush the same table into a skeleton to kill it:smalleek:
Now I know the horror of the lack of bludgeoning weapons in a group.

Ummm...If he can find a way to tip the table onto its side, then yes, he can use it as a tower shield. Granted, given its weight, he wouldn't be able to move with it, but it can provide total cover for anyone behind it.

The bull-rush thing....I would say would be one hell of a strength check to move a 2-ton table. If they all worked together, it might be doable, but still tough. Also, you should inform your players of a little rule: any weapon can deal bludgeoning damage at a -4 penalty to hit. Just make sure it's lethal damage, because undead are immune to nonlethal.

Frosty
2007-12-28, 12:08 PM
Hmm, what page in the PHB says you can alter damage type by taking a -4 penalty to hit? I'm curious here.

Of course, depending on the DR, it may be better to not take the -4, but instead Power Attack thru it.

UglyPanda
2007-12-28, 12:41 PM
Squidmaster, you can't use it as a tower shield, but you can definitely use it for cover (+4 to AC) if it's on it's side.

an kobold
2007-12-28, 01:23 PM
My druid had almost gotten om nom nommed by an evil tree, and his hand had turned a nasty blackish color and wasn't moving. The barbarian begins to jump up and down excitedly: "We have to amputate it!"
*heal check on myself*"No, we don't. Let's just get into town, see a high priest, and everything will be alright."
Barbarian: "I grapple him! Someone cut off his hand before he tries to choke himself!"
Me: :smallconfused: "I'm not going to choke myself! Leave it alone, it'll be fine. Let go of me, you big loaf!"
The ranger in our party looks back and forth between us.
Barbarian: *intimidate* "I WILL BEAT YOU UP IF YOU DON'T CUT OFF HIS HAND! HERE IT IS, I GOT IT OUT FOR YOU! DO IT BEFORE HIS HAND COMES AFTER YOU!"
Me: "WTF ARE YOU DOING!"
Ranger swings, aiming for the wrist, and rolls a natural one on his attack roll.

ALOR
2007-12-28, 01:44 PM
My druid had almost gotten om nom nommed by an evil tree, and his hand had turned a nasty blackish color and wasn't moving. The barbarian begins to jump up and down excitedly: "We have to amputate it!"
*heal check on myself*"No, we don't. Let's just get into town, see a high priest, and everything will be alright."
Barbarian: "I grapple him! Someone cut off his hand before he tries to choke himself!"
Me: :smallconfused: "I'm not going to choke myself! Leave it alone, it'll be fine. Let go of me, you big loaf!"
The ranger in our party looks back and forth between us.
Barbarian: *intimidate* "I WILL BEAT YOU UP IF YOU DON'T CUT OFF HIS HAND! HERE IT IS, I GOT IT OUT FOR YOU! DO IT BEFORE HIS HAND COMES AFTER YOU!"
Me: "WTF ARE YOU DOING!"
Ranger swings, aiming for the wrist, and rolls a natural one on his attack roll.

did he hit the Barbarian????? that would have been truley funny

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-28, 02:54 PM
Hmm, what page in the PHB says you can alter damage type by taking a -4 penalty to hit? I'm curious here.

Of course, depending on the DR, it may be better to not take the -4, but instead Power Attack thru it.

I think what he's referring to is treating a weapon as an Improvised Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons) instead of the type it actually is. Like hitting someone with the pommel of your sword, or the haft of your axe instead of the blade should be blugeoning damage instead of slashing. It also changes the damage you do with the weapon, depending on it's overall size.

EvilElitest
2007-12-28, 07:29 PM
My druid had almost gotten om nom nommed by an evil tree, and his hand had turned a nasty blackish color and wasn't moving. The barbarian begins to jump up and down excitedly: "We have to amputate it!"
*heal check on myself*"No, we don't. Let's just get into town, see a high priest, and everything will be alright."
Barbarian: "I grapple him! Someone cut off his hand before he tries to choke himself!"
Me: :smallconfused: "I'm not going to choke myself! Leave it alone, it'll be fine. Let go of me, you big loaf!"
The ranger in our party looks back and forth between us.
Barbarian: *intimidate* "I WILL BEAT YOU UP IF YOU DON'T CUT OFF HIS HAND! HERE IT IS, I GOT IT OUT FOR YOU! DO IT BEFORE HIS HAND COMES AFTER YOU!"
Me: "WTF ARE YOU DOING!"
Ranger swings, aiming for the wrist, and rolls a natural one on his attack roll.

and cuts off his own hand:smallbiggrin:
from,
EE

souldoubt
2007-12-28, 09:07 PM
Nearly ten years ago, back in the days of 2nd edition, I played a game via an online chatroom with my friend as the DM. One problem we had was that not all of the members of the group managed to "show up" very consistently, so a lot of the time it was just me, my friend the DM, and this guy who like to play overpowered fighters.

Anyway, we once had the following argument that went something like this (paraphrased from ancient memory, of course):

Ftr: Okay, I throw my daggers at the dragon. *rolls attack* Okay, and I add my Str and Dex bonuses, so I hit.
DM: Uh... you don't get your Str AND Dex bonuses on attack rolls.
Ftr: Yes I do. It's a ranged attack, so I get my Dex bonus, and the PHB says that I add my Str bonus with thrown weapons.
DM: You just get your Str bonus to damage, not attack.
Me: Yeah, you don't get it on both.
Ftr: Yes I do. It's in the rules.

I checked the PHB, and this being 2e, the wording was too vague to make much of an argument based on the rules (and the dissenter proved immune to logic). The DM claimed that his copy said something about "on damage rolls only," but I don't know if his PHB was a later printing or if he just said that to get the guy to shut up (at any rate, the DM should have the final word, especially if it makes more logical sense).

The argument went on much longer than it should have, with both the DM and me getting more and more frustrated. I remember the following exchange:

Me: Look, pure physical strength doesn't improve your aim. I mean, if you were incredibly strong, but really clumsy...
Ftr: I'm not clumsy! My character has a 16 Dex!
Me (feeling :smallfurious: ): I said IF! This is a HYPOTHETICAL situation!! HYPOTHETICAL!!...... Now, IF. If if if. If you were incredibly strong, but really clumsy... you could throw a rock and miss the [expletive delete] ground!!

Naturally, he refused to concede the point.