What's to be done about Polymorph?

[Kizara]

I've recently been working on a massive undertaking of basically re-balancing the game, editing out the cheese, and making it generally better (in my opinion). I don't really want to get into that, as its not the main purpose of this thread.

In tackling the spells, I hit a few roadblocks; and this thread is to address the Polymorph line of spells.

To clarify:
1) I don't have an issue with Baleful Polymorph,.

2) Alter Self, Polymorph and Polymorph-any-object are very abusable, generally too powerful for their level (especially the first 2) and a cause for many problems in games.

Now, I can just ban them, and right now am doing so, but I honestly would like them to be functional and reasonable enough to be allowed in play.
So, any ideas on how they can be toned down enough to be still usable but not as abusable?

I don't want it to allow the wizard to be able to do things other spells of that level won't allow (fly speed at level 2, large nat armor bonuses, etc), or to allow cheesy tricks (PaO a river of lava to a pebble, throw it at someone, then dispel it. Great for wiping out cities.)

Some thoughts:

1) Increasing spell level. This might work for Alter Self most specifically.

2) Further restrict possible forms (humanoid or animal only, for instance)

3) Add a longer casting time/xp costs/material components.

4) Lower power/capabilities (specifically for PaO) and/or lower duration.


Share your thoughts please, how would you change it?
Also, please no "the game is broken anyways, dont waste your time" because I am trying to fix said broken game here, and this is a largeish stone on that path. Also, "dont bother 4e is coming out soon" as that is also entirely unproductive.

[Chronicled]

I simply ban polymorph and all its variants in my games. And then I make druids use the PHB2 version.

Because shapechanging is *that* broken.

[JackMage666]

Is Baleful Polymorph really a problem, though, Chronicled? That's one of my favorite spells.....

[Kizara]

Is Baleful Polymorph really a problem, though, Chronicled? That's one of my favorite spells.....

Baleful polymorph is indeed not really a problem, as it's essentially 'hex' and IMO appropriate for a 5th-level spell.

And yes, as I said, I'm doing something similar myself (banning) but I would like to re-work them to be less broken and allow them in my game.

I'm doing quite a bit of nerfbatting to the druid, but wildshape is intact (just limited to MM1 forms) and Natural Spell is banned. But this thread isn't about druids, its about the Polymorph spells.

[Chronicled]

If the will save vs losing memories were removed, and it was changed to a rounds/level, it'd still be a really great spell. Can't do anything when you're a turtle, after all. I'd allow it under those circumstances.

[Kizara]

If the will save vs losing memories were removed, and it was changed to a rounds/level, it'd still be a really great spell. Can't do anything when you're a turtle, after all. I'd allow it under those circumstances.

Well FRICK, I thought it WAS like that...

Alright, needless to say I have a fix for baleful polymorph, and it required me first reading the goddang spell... jeeze I feel stupid.

Cause yea, its supposed to be *poof you're a rabbit* for 1 round/level. Maybe even 1 round/2 levels.

EDIT: Here's my fix:
Baleful Polymorph: You may not polymorph them into a fatal form. Duration is 1 round/2 levels. No secondary Will save (or subsequent penalties). Normal form is resumed after duration, with a -2 circumstance penalty to all actions for 1 round due to disorientation.

[Chronicled]

Well FRICK, I thought it WAS like that...

Alright, needless to say I have a fix for baleful polymorph, and it required me first reading the goddang spell... jeeze I feel stupid.

Cause yea, its supposed to be *poof you're a rabbit* for 1 round/level. Maybe even 1 round/2 levels.

I don't blame you--it's simply too good for a 5th level spell. I had to read it twice when I first saw it, I was certain that it couldn't be as bad as it seemed.

Even with those fixes, it'd be something I'd take. Ask any WoW player (I know waaay to many of them) how much mages love the Sheep spell (answer: a LOT).

Edit: The fix looks decent. I like the disoriented part, which makes up for the 1 round/2 levels (rather than 1/1) part. Also, they still have to get their gear, which makes this a great save-or-suck along with it being a crowd control spell.

[Kizara]

Yeah, it's simply too good for a 5th level spell. I had to read it twice when I first saw it, I was certain that it couldn't be as bad as it seemed.

Even with those fixes, it'd be something I'd take. Ask any WoW player (I know waaay to many of them) how much mages love the Sheep spell (answer: a LOT).

Actually, warcraft 3's Hex is basically what I envision this spell should be. It's certinally a potent effect, but this is a targeted, 5th-level spell that allows a save and then screws you for like 4 rounds or so if you fail it. Is it good? Sure, but its no-longer game-breaking (IMO).

Anyways, any ideas on balancing the other polymorph spells?

[Thinker]

These are not tested fixes, merely suggestions:
Altered Self: Make it so the new form cannot cast spells.
Polymorph: Remove the bit about being healed. Make it so the new form gains a bonus to physical stats equal to the caster level instead of replacing the stats all together; maybe make it so this is distributed based on the monster the target is polymorphed into.
PAO: No suggestions at this time.

[Kizara]

Edit: The fix looks decent. I like the disoriented part, which makes up for the 1 round/2 levels (rather than 1/1) part. Also, they still have to get their gear, which makes this a great save-or-suck along with it being a crowd control spell.

Their gear melts into them and re-forms with them, as per any other shapechanging.

[Kizara]

These are not tested fixes, merely suggestions:
Altered Self: Make it so the new form cannot cast spells.
Polymorph: Remove the bit about being healed. Make it so the new form gains a bonus to physical stats equal to the caster level instead of replacing the stats all together; maybe make it so this is distributed based on the monster the target is polymorphed into.
PAO: No suggestions at this time.

Interesting ideas, I'll keep them in mind. Thanks for your input.

[Chronicled]

All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.

Having their gear meld with them would be more balanced. You might also consider this line as ripe for editing:
With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.
That would include all (Ex), (Sp), and (Su) abilities, PLUS such things as evasion, uncanny dodge, divine grace, silent/still spells or psionics, sneak attack, improved unarmed damage, etc. Depending on what you're looking for, that may not be right. You're still probably going to die next turn when the wizard follows it up with a Cloudkill that spells instant death for your 1-HD form.


If you give players a list of what they can and cannot turn into ("The great mages have only discovered how to turn themselves into 1, 2, and 3. The forms of other creatures have thus far eluded them..."), they're not such horrible spells. Taking some of each of the 4 ideas to fix it that you listed would make it quite fine.

[Kizara]

^ Also a good change, then. You might also consider this line:

If you give players a list of what they can and cannot turn into ("The great mages have only discovered how to turn themselves into 1, 2, and 3. The forms of other creatures have thus far eluded them..."), they're not such horrible spells. Taking some of each of the 4 ideas to fix it that you listed would make it quite fine.

I hate it when rules are changed behind my back (read: after I read an earlier version of them) and thus make me look ignorant.

Good idea on the list of forms, although would take some work to pick enough good forms to make the spell have a point and be sensible, but not cheesy.
And any thoughts on HOW specifically to use the tools I've suggested? :)

EDIT: I'm pretty sure you keep your HD; but having all your abilities unusable in your toad form seems sensible to me. Including losing things like Evasion or Divine Grace (Hex is probably the best counter for things like Evasion or Dispersion in DotA :)).

[Chronicled]

For reference:

Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm): Baleful Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
The target retains its own hit points.
The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).
With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.

If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or an airborne target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm): Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Material Component
An empty cocoon.

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm): Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.


Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm): Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

Focus
A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

[Kizara]

Yea was just digging for that stuff myself, thanks for all your help.

I got some ideas now, although this thread is certinally still open for further input.

Chronicled, would you be interested in consulting with me on MSN regarding this and maybe some of the rest of my houserules? Would really like another intelligent opinion, and its a pretty concerted effort at balancing the game.

[Chronicled]

I misread the HD part. You're correct. If you get hit by this, your saves will plummet, though, making you prepped for an easy save-or-die.

Edit: I'd enjoy working on this via PM, but MSN I have not. I was going to ask if there was a link to the changes made so far, this looks quite good.

[Jack_Simth]

I know of three basic methods that have a reasonable chance of success in balancing the Polymorph line:

1) Variant Summoning. It's not "You+" (as in the Wizard that Alter Self's into a Troglodite for +6 natural armor), it's "That-" - the subject of a polymorph spell uses the monster entry for his character sheet, minus whatever the spell wouldn't give (but not gaining his character's version of same). So if a Wizard Shapechanges into a Planetar, said Wizard can not cast Wizard spells nor Cleric spells. If he Alter's Self into a Troglodite, he can't cast spells, either. If he Polymorphs the Rogue into a Hydra, the Rogue does not get Sneak Attack on all those natural attacks (because he loses his class features, as the Hydra doesn't have them). Damage translates between forms, balance is based on CR.
2) Mostly Illusion. Each version of Polymorph has a sharp list of abilities it can grant - the specific number and magnitude of them is based on caster level and the version of the spell used. The subject is then disguised as that creature - so Alter Self might be good for one of: +2 Natural Armor, one natural weapon, or a +10 enhancement bonus to land sped - but that's it. You've got a short list of selectable effects to choose from, with the spell's power based on that list.
3) Limited Form Library. You don't have Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange - you have Polymorph(X), where X is some specific creature. Spells are researched and separately, often in different spell levels. Balanceable based on the specific abilities of the creature.