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peloriansun
2007-12-18, 01:54 AM
I currently have a player who has decided that the best way to defeat anything medium sized is to try to chop off it's arm.

Not having a good rule for this i decided that it would be go as follows, regular attack roll, sunder attempt with an arm having a hardness of twenty and 1/5 the total hp of the creature.

Does this sound good correct?

Talic
2007-12-18, 02:02 AM
Hardness 20!? You're aware that is also the hardness of Adamantine?

By contrast, Steel is 12, and a solid Wood is 8.

Hacking through bone and tendon could be considered about as rough as chopping through a comparable thickness of oak. I'd go hardness 8, and assign a minimum damage required to sever it, say, 10. That way, some Dis-arming will result in death, but otherwise 20% total hp works.

peloriansun
2007-12-18, 02:11 AM
I was unaware, and thank you for the advice.

:smallsmile:

Draz74
2007-12-18, 02:16 AM
I currently have a player who has decided that the best way to defeat anything medium sized is to try to chop off it's arm.

Not having a good rule for this i decided that it would be go as follows, regular attack roll, sunder attempt with an arm having a hardness of twenty and 1/5 the total hp of the creature.

Does this sound good correct?

Nah. It's not a sunder attempt, because the arm is normally part of the target that a normal attack roll would be going for anyway. It's a Called Shot, which 3E has very carefully avoided making rules for. Personally, I'd do something like this. Make him take a -5 penalty on his attack roll, since he's aiming for a target much smaller than "the whole creature," and the arm has good enough motor control that it is one of the easier parts of the body to defend. (It's not like it's a part of the body the opponent won't be paying attention to or anything.)

If the attack roll is not a critical, the attacker gains no benefit for his Called Shot. If the attack roll is a critical (with a slashing weapon), then he can forgo the extra damage that the critical would normally allow. The target must make a Fortitude save vs. a DC equal to the damage done by the attack. He may add his armor bonus to AC to this Fortitude Save. If he fails the save, he loses his arm.

Balanced? Hardly. It's a stupid idea to sever an arm under these rules. But maybe that means your player will go back to "trying to hit any part of the darn opponent he can most easily hit," just like all the other not-stupid fighters out there. (If you make the arm severage a good tactic, it won't make sense why everyone isn't using it.) There's a reason 3E has avoided making Called Shot rules, after all.

Alternatively, you can just tell him to use Power Attack. And then if he Power Attacks for a LOT, and actually hits, you can describe arm severage. And just represent it in-game through the massive extra damage done by the attack. Takes some creative DMing, though, if the wounded target is going to keep fighting with both hands.

Alternatively, you can just rule your players tactic to be a Disarm attempt. Then make puns ("Get it? disARM!?!?") until he groans and gives up on the idea.

Reinboom
2007-12-18, 02:17 AM
Talic is rather close to correct. Pure bone is actually slightly stronger than Oak, however, but not by much.
Given wood:
Wood 6 in., 5 hardness, 60 hp

this calculates over the space of a door, however. Also, bone is pretty difficult to break via slashing or piercing.

I would actually give it DR instead of hardness. With less HP.

Mind however, once they realize that the skull is bone too - just not as strong, the system could fall apart.

Make sure you have something to keep armor in mind, and the fact that the arm is much smaller than a body in general.

Hazkali
2007-12-18, 06:50 AM
I currently have a player who has decided that the best way to defeat anything medium sized is to try to chop off it's arm.


:smallsigh:

Yet more 'called shot' madness...

If you do instigate this rule, make sure your monsters are calling shots on the players. When they realise how expensive it is to get a limb restored, perhaps the player will realise how the idea of called shots break the game.

Craig1f
2007-12-18, 10:33 AM
I've seen charts that people use for critical hits, where you roll a d20 after a confirmed critical, and use the chart to lookup the effect. It can have things like "damages left arm, damages right arm, damages limb chosen by player" and the like.

So, invent a chart, and when they make a critical, make crazy things happen instead of just x2 and x3 damage.

Although, if the party doesn't have regenerate, and monsters start doing this to the party, they'll be in serious trouble.

playswithfire
2007-12-18, 11:06 AM
found this on crystal keep a little while ago; may need to be tweaked, though, particularly if he's not a rogue; either way, the fluff would change as this seems to more like the copious blood draining from the wound is temporarily disabling it until it clots, rather than sundering outright

Lacerate
[Ambush]
(DR344 p103)
Requires:
Sneak Attack / Sudden
Strike class ability with
at least +4d6
Strength 13
Intelligence 13
Power Attack
Painful Strike
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm

On a successful Sneak Attack, you may reduce the Sneak Attack dice by 3d6 to cause your foe to lose use of one of his/her hands for 1 minute (FortNeg, DC = 10 + ½ Character level + damage dealt).
Any object in the disabled hand is dropped, the foe cannot wield two-handed weapons, etc.
This ability only applies to living creatures who can feel pain.

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-18, 12:34 PM
found this on crystal keep a little while ago; may need to be tweaked, though, particularly if he's not a rogue; either way, the fluff would change as this seems to more like the copious blood draining from the wound is temporarily disabling it until it clots, rather than sundering outright

Lacerate
[Ambush]
(DR344 p103)
Requires:
Sneak Attack / Sudden
Strike class ability with
at least +4d6
Strength 13
Intelligence 13
Power Attack
Painful Strike
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm

On a successful Sneak Attack, you may reduce the Sneak Attack dice by 3d6 to cause your foe to lose use of one of his/her hands for 1 minute (FortNeg, DC = 10 + ½ Character level + damage dealt).
Any object in the disabled hand is dropped, the foe cannot wield two-handed weapons, etc.
This ability only applies to living creatures who can feel pain.

First of all this doesn't really represent dismemberment as much as it represents temporary nerve or tendon damage or having your strike hit a pressure point.

As far as limb severage goes this passage from the SRD may help:


A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersHtoI.html#hydra

In this case I would treat the attack roll as a sunder attempt VS the target's full AC (minus any penalties for being flat footed ect...) plus any bonuses or penalties for an object that is 1-2 size categories smaller than the target with any target that is more than 2 size categories smaller than the weapon being used not presenting a large enough target to be accurately hit.

Oh yeah and slashing weapons only obviously. You could use bludgeoning maybe but you would only break the arm then,

Treguard
2007-12-18, 01:49 PM
Considering the mechanikal prosthetic limbs one can attain in Iron Kingdoms, I too am curious if anyone has managed to create an effective rule-set for limb dismemberment.

My initial thought was forgoing the full damage from a critical hit (half perhaps, or maybe just regular damage) for a free sunder attempt on limb of choice vs. targets AC, the limb being treated as one size category smaller than the target itself. Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing would effectively disable the limb (imagine breaking bone or cleaving/impaling muscle) until a lesser restoration, minimum, or hefty heal check was taken. Rolling a nat 20 with a slashing weapon could result in limbs-a-flyin' :smallbiggrin:

Of course, there are the real world problems of shock and bleeding out.. I know WFRP handles this in its own, grim way (read: death) but DnD is very different in that respect..

Azaul
2007-12-18, 02:46 PM
It bothered me that Regeneration was a higher level spell than raise dead. Apparently it is easier to bring life back to a dead body that it is to reattach or regrow a lost body part. Considering how much easier it is to kill a character than it is to sever a limb, I suppose this makes sense.

Here are the rules I put together for severing limbs. I hope to have my entire article up in the Original Content section of Private Sanctuary (www.35privatesanctuary.com) soon. It includes penalties for losing a limb, spells that sever limbs or mimic lost limbs, and mundane and magical prosthetics.

Special Attack
Sever Limb

You can use a melee attack with a slashing weapon to lop off an enemy’s ankle, elbow, knee, or wrist at the joint. Normally you can’t sever other limbs than those four, but your DM may deem some special limbs fragile enough to qualify (a wing, for example). If you’re attempting to sever a limb, follow the steps outlined here.

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose limb you are trying to sever (known as the Target Creature). If you have the Improved Sever Limb feat (see New Feats, below), you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.

Step 2
Make Attack. Choose a limb to target: ankle; elbow; knee; or wrist, specifying right or left. Make an attack roll against the body part, using the AC of the target creature but with a size category modifier three size categories smaller. If this would mean the target is smaller than Fine, it can not be targeted. Knees and elbows are denser joints, giving them an additional +2 Natural Armour bonus.

Step 3
Consequences: If you hit the limb, deal damage normally, and the creature must make a Fortitude saving throw against a DC equal to 5 + your Base Attack Bonus. If you have the Improved Sever Limb feat (see New Feats, below), the DC is equal to 7 + your Base Attack Bonus.

mregecko
2007-12-18, 03:17 PM
Called shots suck...

Limit them wherever possible.

Definitely consider limb loss as part of crit charts though.

-- Gecko

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-18, 03:50 PM
Called shots suck...

Limit them wherever possible.

Definitely consider limb loss as part of crit charts though.

-- Gecko

Simply have it provoke an Attack of Opportunity one which you are considered flat footed. The should stop most of the attempts right there.

Citizen Joe
2007-12-18, 03:53 PM
You cannot sunder a limb unless it is specifically included in the creature's description. See Hydra and Octopus (I think)

MammonAzrael
2007-12-18, 03:59 PM
One thing my DM has done is use the 2nd Ed. Crit tables. They transfer fairly well. Or course, run it by your players. It makes crits far more exciting than just more damage, but it can be quite devastating to have your tank's hip shattered. Perhaps homebrew some early level spells to heal damages.

Arakune
2007-12-18, 04:00 PM
It bothered me that Regeneration was a higher level spell than raise dead. Apparently it is easier to bring life back to a dead body that it is to reattach or regrow a lost body part. Considering how much easier it is to kill a character than it is to sever a limb, I suppose this makes sense.


That's madness! :smallmad:

Riffington
2007-12-18, 04:06 PM
Fundamentally the issue is that level-based HP and realistic combat are at odds.

If you hit someone with an axe hard enough to disable a limb, it honestly didn't matter where you hit the guy - he's going down, and he's dying without immediate expert medical attention.

So the issue is, "what is up with these characters with double-digit HP numbers?" Unless you want to pretend they have super-dense flesh, they must have James Bond-style luck. (That first "hit" just put a neat hole in the jacket. The second one drew a thin line of blood across the forearm. Etc)

Which means that it is about as difficult to get a good hit on someone's arm as it is to disembowel them. So basically, you should do one of three things:

A: make up some complicated rules involving hardness and whatnot that properly scale with level
B: just not allow it.
C: allow special effects like "chop off his arm" when you take a foe close to 0 HP.

I suggest plan C.

Heliomance
2007-12-18, 04:08 PM
Madness? THIS IS D&D!

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-18, 04:15 PM
Madness? THIS IS D&D!

So, yes. Madness.