View Full Version : Balance Discussion

2007-12-18, 05:49 AM
Now, on the off chance that maybe.. maybe casters are balanced, its just certain SPELLS that are off, I have created this topic for all spells people feel might deserve a nerf. Then I'll just whip this list off to the 3.7e project and they'll see what needs doing, and I can feel like I'm helping.

So far, I know of

"Wind wall"
"Various Save or Die spells"
"Magnificent Mansion"
"Various Polymorph Effects"
"Shivering Touch"
"Wings of Cover"
"Wings of Flurry"
"Divine Power"
"Animal Growth"
"Alter self"
"Power word: Pain"
Air Walk
Alter Self
Animal Shapes
Charm Monster
Charm Monster, Mass
Charm Person
Freedom of Movement
Invisibility, Greater
Invisibility, Mass
Invisibility Sphere
Rope Trick

2007-12-18, 05:58 AM
Various Polymorph Effects
Shivering Touch
Wings of Cover
Wings of Flurry
Divine Power
Animal Growth

2007-12-18, 05:59 AM
Divine Power... It detracts from fighting classes by essentially cloning them. Clerics don't need to be able to dial-a-class and be it.

Possibly Celerity.

2007-12-18, 06:06 AM
"shivering touch"
"power word: pain"
"gate" for the summon-into-trap exploit and gating monsters with 'gate' as a SLA
"alter self" doesn't need nerfing but you do need to sit down and work out what it actually does
"wish" with is a proper 9th level spell. it's one that changes the game and that's what 9th level spells should do! however there are a number of ways to get access to it alot earlier than you should do, and that's bad. so most of it's nerfing should be to do with items or SLAs that can cast it.

a possible fix for 'Wish' is thus:
When 'wish' results in an EXP cost, the cost must be paid by the caster or a willing party, even when cast from an item or through a spell-like-ability.

also review the monsters that get wish as a SLA and work out how/why/when they can use it. If you can't get a solution you like, remove wish from that monster.

2007-12-18, 08:59 AM
Trying not to duplicate others:

Air Walk

Alter Self
Animal Shapes

Charm Monster
Charm Monster, Mass
Charm Person

Freedom of Movement
Invisibility, Greater
Invisibility, Mass
Invisibility Sphere

2007-12-18, 10:39 AM
Many save vs. suck spells since DCs increase MUCH faster than saves.

2007-12-18, 10:55 AM
Rope Trick

2007-12-18, 06:44 PM
Keep em coming! Great job so far.

2007-12-18, 08:57 PM
Some of my work, I'll be sending this and a bunch more to renegade paladin when he answers my PM:

Magic and Spells (Core):

Any spell less than 5th-level that effects the status of the target allows a save, generally Fortitude. This covers everything from Ray of Enfeeblement to Enervation. Spells that apply an ability penalty apply an enchantment penalty. Some basic cleric spells (Bane, Prayer, Doom) are an exception from this rule.

The caster level cap on Dispel Magic is removed. Greater Dispel Magic now gives you +4 to the check.

Spells that create permanent materials (such as Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone) create materials that are inherently inferior and worthless for use in all but the most primitive of crafting. This difference is one of the ways such a wall is identified from a mundane wall.

The ability score bonus spell chart is expanded to include cantrips/orisons, thereby granting casters bonus 0-level spells according to high ability score.

Sorcerers and other unprepared casters may use Quicken Spell, and other metamagic feats that speed spellcasting normally, without the normal requirement of a full-round action when using a metamagic feat.

People are welcome to create alternate versions of existing elemental attack spells that deal a different primary element (acid, cold, lightning, fire). For instance:
Lightning bolt -> Line of Fire
Cone of Cold -> Cone of Fire
Fireball -> Frost Nova
Scorching Ray -> Caustic Tendrils
The new versions must make sense and might be slightly altered to accommodate the new elemental types.

Also, see changes to Concentration skill (above).
-Comprehend languages is a 2nd-level spell.
-Tongues is a 4th-level spell.

-Create Water only creates 1 gallon/level.
-Divine Favor is a 2nd-level spell.
-Find Traps is removed from the normal list, still exists as a Domain spell.
-Silence is a 3rd-level spell.
-Add Gust of Wind to 2nd-level list.
-Add Darkvision to 2nd-level list.
-Wind Wall is a 6th-level spell.
-Divine Power now has a casting time of 1 round.
-**Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection cost 1,000 XP to cast.
-Righteous Might now has a casting time of 1 round.
-Holy word/Dictum/Word of Chaos/Blasphemy do not allow caster-level boosting effects, such as Necklace of Prayer beads to benefit them.
-Word of Recall has a casting time of 1 round.
-Regenerate is a 5th-level spell.
-Etheral Jaunt is a 6th-level spell.
-Etherealness is a 8th-level spell.
-Gate grants you no control over called creatures, ever. The HD restrictions on controlling are instead applied to summoning. The XP cost for the calling version is removed.


-Entangle has a range of Medium and is a 20-ft radius spread.
-Faerie Fire is a 2nd-level spell.
-Warp Wood does not work on enchanted wood, or wooden magical items.
-You may apply your Armor Bonus to AC to your save vs. Spike Growth. Also, area is reduced to 1 10ft cube/level; casting time increased to 1 round.
-Casting time of Spike Stones increased to 1 round, and you may apply half your armor bonus to AC to your save.
-Add Leomoundís Tiny Hut to 3rd-level list.
-Add Wall of Stone to 5th-level list.
-Wind Wall is a 6th-level spell.
-Regenerate is a 7th-level spell.
-Shapechange is removed from the 9th-level list, although would be considered as an Epic spell.
-Reincarnate is a 5th-level spell.
-**Reincarnate and its variants cost 1,000xp to cast.
-Repel Wood and Repel Metal or Stone now both allow SR.


-Add Detect Magic to 1st-level list.
-Lesser Restoration is a 2nd-level spell.
-Remove Undetectable Alignment from the spell lists of non-chaotic paladins
-Add Bearís Endurance to 2nd-level list.
-Add Spiritual Weapon to 2nd-level list.
-Cure Moderate Wounds is a 2nd-level spell
-Cure Serious Wounds is a 3rd-level spell.
-Add Cure Critical Wounds to 4th-level list.
-Add Magic Vestment to 3rd-level list.
-Add Dimensional Anchor to 4th-level list.
-Remove Restoration from the 4th-level list (add to 5th).

5th-level list:

-Cure Light Wounds, Mass
-Disrupting Weapon
-Righteous Might
-Spell Resistance
-True Seeing
-Spell Immunity
-Mark of Justice
-Find the Path


-Calm Animals is a 2nd-level spell.
-Delay Poison is a 2nd-level spell.
-Add Detect Magic to 1st-level list.
-Add Magic Weapon to 1st-level list.
-Resist Energy is a 2nd-level spell.
-Barkskin is a 1st-level spell.
-Protection From Energy is a 3rd-level spell.
-Cure Light Wounds is a 1st-level spell.
-Wind Wall is removed from these lists. (and added to 5th)
-Darkvision is a 2nd-level spell.
-Add Lesser Restoration to 3rd-level list.
-Add Dispel Magic to 4th-level list.
-Add Spike Stones to 4th-level list.

5th-level list.
-Wind Wall
-Animal Growth
-Commune with Nature
-Death Ward
-Tree Stride
-Wall of Thorns
-Wall of Stone
-Spell Resistance


-Alarm duration is now 1hr/level.
-Detect Undead is a 0-level spell.
-Hold Portal range is now Close.
-Comprehend Languages is a 3rd-level spell.
-Detect Secret Doors is a 2nd-level spell.
-Charm Person duration is now 10 min/level.
-**Identify M component removed.
-Tenserís Floating Disk is now 10 min/level.
-Color Spray is a 2nd-level spell.
-Jump gives +5/10/20 instead of the listed bonuses.
-Arcane Lock now has a 250gp M component (instead of as listed).
-Fog Cloud can be burnt away in the same manner as Obscuring Mist.
-Glitterdust is a 3rd-level spell, save is changed to Fort, and this spell negates concealment or displacement for its duration.
-Melfís Acid Arrow now does 2d6 acid damage/round.
-Touch of Idiocy: Pick 2 scores to drop, not all 3. Damage is now 2d4. Will negates, lasts for 1 min/level.
-Held or attended objects are allowed a save, included the use of Shatter.
-Invisibility is broken by any strenuous action, including casting any spell. Essentially, recipients are restricted to actions such as mundane conversation or movement, possibly including actions such as swimming or climbing. These rules cover Invisibility Sphere and Mass Invisibility as well.
-An Enemy can strike at up to three adjacent Ďimagesí created by Mirror Image as a full-attack action by sweeping his weapon through the area. He makes touch attacks against the targets, hits against the images dispel them, but hits against you in this fashion deal no damage.
-Ghoul Touch duration now simply 1d6 rounds.
-Knock functions as-stated in regards to barriers held closed by magical spells (such as a door with Hold Portal). However, against mundane means, it has the result of a DC 25 Open Lock check on the door in question. Alternately, it can give +10 to Open Lock checks (to creature touched) for 1 min/level. Finally, itís range is now touch.
-Rope Trick is removed.
-Spider Climb also grants immunity to webs, including the Web spell. However, it is now 1 min/level.
-*Alter Self
-See Dispel Magic changes, above.
-Explosive Runes now has 250 gp material component cost (gold dust) and has a 1 minute casting time.
-Phantom Steed speed is now 30ft + 10 ft/2 caster levels (maximum 100 ft).
-Only 1 save is needed against Stinking Cloud, and you can try every round till you make it (suffering effects until you do). Once you make the save you are immune to the effects of that Stinking Cloud.
-Suggestion: While a reasonable suggestion imposes -1 or -2 to the save, an unreasonable one or one that is highly contrary to the subjectís desires simply will not work.
-Tongues is a 5th-level spell.
-Wind Wall is a 6th-level spell.
-Ray of Exhaustion cannot stack with itself, or with any other magical effect that creates fatigue. That is, you cannot simply cast it on someone twice to make them exhausted, regardless if they make their saves.
-Fly now has a casting time of 1 round and a duration of 2 rounds/level.
-Fire Trap is a 2nd-level spell.
-Dimension Door: If cast as a swift action, has a range of close. If cast as a standard action, has a range of close +40ft. If you take 1 round to cast it, it has a range of long.
-Leomoundís Secure Shelter is a 5th-level spell.
-Solid Fog allows you to make a strength check (DC 25) to be able to move through it at half speed, and not suffer the penalty to attacks.
-Crushing Despair is a 3rd-level spell.
-Otilukeís Resilient Sphere has a casting time of 1 round. Note: This may result in you trapping yourself with enemies in the sphere.
-Shadow Conjuration is removed.
-Animate Dead is a 3rd-level spell.
-Mordenkainenís Private Sanctum is now 10ft cube/level, and the cubes must be continuous. Any spell or ability able to penetrate magical Darkness overcomes the screening effect of this spell.
-Teleport has a casting time of 2 rounds.
-Baleful Polymorph: You may not polymorph them into a fatal form. Duration is 1 round/2 levels. No secondary Will save (or subsequent penalties). Equipment melds into the new form and re-forms with the subject when the duration expires. Normal form is resumed after duration, with a -2 circumstance penalty to all actions for 1 round due to disorientation.
-Fabricate is removed.
-Feeblemind: The penalty to the Will save for arcane casters is removed. It can be dispelled by a Break Enchantment as well as the listed effects.
-Shadow Evocation is removed.
-Magic Jar is removed.
-Overland Flight now grants poor manoeuvrability.
-Mordenkainenís Magnificent Mansion: The entrance is a barrier that requires a Will Save to pass. If the mansion is dispelled (targeting the entrance), those inside are deposited outside where the entrance was and are stunned for 1 round (no save). Nothing can be removed from the mansion.
-Contingencyís triggered spell canít have a casting time longer then 1 standard action.
-Teleport, Greater has a casting time of 1 round.
-Teleport Object has a casting time of 1 round.
-Insanity is an 8th-level spell.
-Etheral Jaunt is a 6th-level spell.
-Delayed Blast Fireball does 1d8/level fire damage.
-Forcecage has a casting time of 1 round.
-Shadow Conjuration, Greater is removed.
-Simulacrum is an 8th-level spell.
-Moment of Prescience does not apply to Initiative checks (this is not a house rule).
-Symbol of Insanity is a 9th-level spell.
-Otilukeís Telepathic Sphere has a casting time of 1 round.
-Polymorph Any Object: Fortitude Negates. If cast on a person, acts as permanent-duration Baleful Polymorph. If cast on objects, it effects a 10ft cube/level, cannot create materials of great intrinsic value, and costs 1,000 XP. (similarity chart is removed)
-Shadow Evocation, Greater is removed.
-Etheralness is a 8th-level spell.
-Gate: see cleric list
-*Mordenkainenís Disjunction

The ranger and pally spell lists make sense if you realize I have them have casting progressions similar to the duskblade now.
*= Needs further work.
**= Flavor-based decision, could be undone if desired without unduly effecting balance.

2007-12-18, 10:15 PM
Wings of Cover
Wings of Flurry

I am unfamiliar with these spells. Edification?

2007-12-18, 10:39 PM
Wind Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) Because it is effectively Teleportation Circle with no cost and at a lower level than Sorcercers. Altenatively, better than teleport and only one spell level higher.

Fire Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm) I'm not sure why Druids and Cleric get a shapable Direct Damage when arcane spellcasters don't. Some people dis Direct damage as inherently useless, but without this spell divine spellcasters don't have the option.

2007-12-18, 10:52 PM
I am unfamiliar with these spells. Edification?

Wings of Cover is a sorcerer spell from RotD. It basically negates line of effect for one attack as an immediate action. 2nd level spell. This means that if you stay out of full attack range, a fighter who makes 1 attack per round can NEVER hurt you as long as you cast Wings of Cover as he makes his attack.

Wings of Flurry is a 4th level sorcerer spell that does 1d6 damage/level force damage to targets you select in a 30ft radius. There's a reflex save for half, but creatures who fail the reflex save are dazed for 1 round. The damage is uncapped.